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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

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Speaker 1: name is no they call me. Then we are joined

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Speaker 1: with our super producer Paul Mission controlled decond But most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you. You are here, and that makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. This episode is

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Speaker 1: going to be an update on something. It's an update

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Speaker 1: that we hoped but never truly thought we would ever

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Speaker 1: have the chance to do. This is very much a

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Speaker 1: what a what a time to be alive? Sort of show.

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Speaker 1: You may recall long time listeners that a while ac

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Speaker 1: when was it Matt ma Mayen, we did an episode

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Speaker 1: on what is known as the original night Stalker or

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Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer, And in this episode we looked

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Speaker 1: at the current research and investigation into those at the

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Speaker 1: time unsolved crimes, the various theories, the various leads that

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Speaker 1: were taken up and later rejected by law enforcement and

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Speaker 1: armchair investigators on specialized crime forums on Reddit, all over

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Speaker 1: the internet, and including some of the authors who made

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Speaker 1: it their life's work to hunt down this killer. Today, however,

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Speaker 1: we're telling a very different story. Today. We are making

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Speaker 1: it official. After decades of dead ends, tantalizing theories, and

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Speaker 1: frustrating leads, justice may have finally caught up with the

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Speaker 1: Golden State Killer. But four you listen to this episode

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Speaker 1: if you would like a deep dive into the crimes

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Speaker 1: and the past investigation of the crimes of the Golden

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Speaker 1: State Killer, or East Area Rapists as they were also known,

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Speaker 1: U do check out our episode from mayen. We'll wait.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, that's a good one. Wasn't it kind of

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Speaker 1: a bummer? Really? Yeah? But news It was a lots

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Speaker 1: of lots of avenues to investigate, but we we get

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Speaker 1: a happy ending. Here is what is? What was? What

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Speaker 1: this amounts to? Right, which it's there's definitely a light

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Speaker 1: at the tunnel at the end of the tunnel. That's

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Speaker 1: a better turn of phrase. We'll see, we'll see, we'll see.

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Speaker 1: We hope we as a society make it to the light.

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Speaker 1: Quick background for everybody who just sat quietly the way

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Speaker 1: the three of us did in the studio while your

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Speaker 1: fellow listeners were checking out that episode from at least

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Speaker 1: ninete six California was plagued by a serial break in artist,

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Speaker 1: a burglar, later a rapist, and then finally a murderer

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Speaker 1: who was known by several different names and was believed

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Speaker 1: to be several different people for a time, the vizalea ransacker,

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Speaker 1: the Diamond not Killer, the Golden State Killer, the East

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Speaker 1: Area rapist, and also the original night stalker, nowadays more

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Speaker 1: often referred to as the Golden State Killer. I believe yeah,

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Speaker 1: because the Golden State Killer encombs as all of these

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Speaker 1: different crimes breefe and eventually, in the course of their investigation,

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Speaker 1: law enforcement and independent investigators began to connect the dots

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Speaker 1: and they said, we believe this is all the work

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Speaker 1: of a single individuals, so not copycatters, not a group

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Speaker 1: operating in concert, although we do have a bit of

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Speaker 1: a rabbit hole about that. But a single man, a

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Speaker 1: man who might never be apprehended until that is on

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Speaker 1: April two, thousand eighteen, when authorities announced the arrest of

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Speaker 1: a suspect named Joseph James D'Angelo, Jr. A seventy two

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Speaker 1: year old retired police officer. He was rested on eight

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Speaker 1: counts of first degree murder based on DNA evidence, and

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Speaker 1: more than forty years since his criminal career began, the

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Speaker 1: original night stalker would finally maybe be held accountable. This

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Speaker 1: is the accumulation of countless of hours of police work,

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Speaker 1: contributions and analysis by thousands and thousands of people, several

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Speaker 1: of whom are doubtlessly listening to this podcast today, and

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Speaker 1: in a very real sense, a lucky break. So so

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Speaker 1: what happens. Can we look back over some of these

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Speaker 1: original crimes? I think we must, Well, here are the

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Speaker 1: facts that maybe we start with the Vasalia ransacker, and

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Speaker 1: we do have to say we are only at this

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Speaker 1: point talking about documented crimes. As you've seen in previous shows,

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Speaker 1: is unfortunate fact in the US that many, many, many

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Speaker 1: crimes do not get reported. Do you think that because

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Speaker 1: of what's come to light that that we'll find out

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Speaker 1: about more or do you think that's unlikely? You know, ideally,

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Speaker 1: ideally there wouldn't be more to fined, but realistically there

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Speaker 1: are probably some. It's just a safe thing to guess.

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Speaker 1: The question then becomes, if we're talking about pre nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventies stuff, were the authorities at the time collecting DNA?

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Speaker 1: Does anything remain? You know, so it's it's tough, but

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Speaker 1: who knows. Also, if it turns out we should say

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Speaker 1: D'Angelo has not been convicted yet. But if it turns

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Speaker 1: out that he is uh, that he is convicted, and

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Speaker 1: he already from what we understand, confessed to several things,

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Speaker 1: he may just go on and start naming more names

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Speaker 1: and instances because he is frankly at the end of

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Speaker 1: his life one way or the other. Yep. Has can

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Speaker 1: often happen with these kinds of lega. He crimes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately well, the Visalia ransacker was a master burglar and

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Speaker 1: break in guy, believed to be responsible for more than

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Speaker 1: one crimes. Again, only the ones that we know of.

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Speaker 1: The first ransacking that was recorded was on Tuesday, March

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Speaker 1: nineteenth four, and one thing that stood out to people

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Speaker 1: was that he passed over a lot of high value items,

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Speaker 1: a lot of electronics, a lot of keepsakes and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and instead he stole about fifty bucks worth of coins

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Speaker 1: from a piggy bank. That's what That's what he took.

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Speaker 1: Clearly something else at work here other than desire for

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Speaker 1: monetary gain right right, because there there are pawn shops everywhere.

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Speaker 1: He could have taken something and then pawned it, uh

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Speaker 1: and made much more than fifty dollars. Is the keyword here, Ransack, right,

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Speaker 1: because this is about going through people's private things. Yes,

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Speaker 1: just so. He was tearing houses of park, knocking over furniture,

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Speaker 1: cutting stuff up, going in the closets, throwing out things.

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Speaker 1: But he would only actually steal a few small items trinkets,

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Speaker 1: cuff links, keepsakes, keepsakes. And he would also probably the

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Speaker 1: creepiest thing you would do is he would arrange items

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Speaker 1: and what appeared to be almost a ritualistic fact fashion,

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Speaker 1: you know, like women's underwear. He did steal weapons. He

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Speaker 1: stole six weapons. He was prolific. He committed multiple break

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Speaker 1: ins in the same area on the same day and

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Speaker 1: he also set a record for that too. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: broke into twelve different homes in a single day on Saturday,

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Speaker 1: November and at this point, other than the strange arrangement

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Speaker 1: of items, it looks like a really creepy burglar, right

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Speaker 1: until that is, on September eleven, a man who is

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Speaker 1: strongly believed to be the rand Sacker broke into the

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Speaker 1: home of one Claude Snelling at five thirty two Whitney Lane.

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Speaker 1: It's now South Whitney Street if you're familiar with the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: Claude caught someone trying to kidnap his daughter in their

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Speaker 1: cardboard and this still a named person shot Claude twice

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Speaker 1: and Claude died and the assailant fled. This became the

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Speaker 1: first known murder linked to what we call the original

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Speaker 1: night stalker. And this murder prompted him to leave town.

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Speaker 1: So he's escalated already from ransacking to child snatching. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems that it seems like that was the course.

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Speaker 1: It's it's pretty safe to say that if the daughter

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Speaker 1: had been successfully kidnapped, she would have at very least

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Speaker 1: been assaulted. And then the murder, though was a byproduct

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Speaker 1: of being caught. Yes, the murder was more than likely

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Speaker 1: a moment of panic to or perhaps in some sense

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Speaker 1: meant to erase a witness. It's probably not the primary intense,

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Speaker 1: but the story of this man is one of escalations.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to point that out. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that this this particular killing. I wonder if it's like

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Speaker 1: what kind of gave him the taste or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, maybe I want to add this to

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Speaker 1: my repertoire. You have to wonder too, because we find

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Speaker 1: often in serial murders, like in our previous episodes on

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Speaker 1: Uncaught serial Killers, we do see this escalation. You know,

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Speaker 1: someone starts with fires, someone starts with mutilations right or

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Speaker 1: running by and slashing someone or choking somebody, and then

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Speaker 1: it builds and builds. But this killer was at this

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Speaker 1: point still lucid enough to realize the dangers if they

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Speaker 1: chose to stay in Visalia. So in mid nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: six he moves to Sacramento, and that's where he progresses

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Speaker 1: fully from burglary and murders, perhaps unintentionally, to sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: So around June six, our person here of interest moved

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Speaker 1: to Sacramento, and this is when he's really progressing from

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Speaker 1: burglary into sexual assault. Although you know he he originally

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Speaker 1: targeted these women who were alone. Usually that's what what

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Speaker 1: his victim would look like. Um, they would be in

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Speaker 1: their homes, sometimes they would be with their children, and

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Speaker 1: he would later prefer couples. Somehow it switched from just

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Speaker 1: a alone victim that he could attack to perhaps, like

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Speaker 1: we were saying, the escalating thrill and whatever he was

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Speaker 1: getting out of this escalated to where he needed to

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Speaker 1: have a partnered couple, to where there is a male

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Speaker 1: and female usually And perhaps some of that is tied

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Speaker 1: into his perception of the unattainable nature of someone already

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Speaker 1: in a relationship. Perhaps some of it is is a

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Speaker 1: power move on his on his part to someone else

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Speaker 1: witness helpless. It's spooky and disturbing stuff. He is standard procedure,

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Speaker 1: smacked of prior training. He's weren't He's may have been

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Speaker 1: crimes of passion when he got there, but he did

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Speaker 1: a lot of homework. He did extensive research. She would

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Speaker 1: typically break in through a window and awaken someone with

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Speaker 1: a flashlight and a gun so they can't clearly see

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Speaker 1: him as well, and then buying the victims, blindfold them,

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Speaker 1: gag them with towels from their own house, and he

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Speaker 1: would typically force the female victim to tie up her

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Speaker 1: male companion before he tied the female victim up himself.

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Speaker 1: And he operated that way for from for about a

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Speaker 1: year June to seventy six to May seventy seven, and

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Speaker 1: he had a three month gap and then he returned

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Speaker 1: in sacrament so in other counties he had another three

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Speaker 1: month gap, and then he was operating in other counties

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Speaker 1: until nineteen seventy nine, and from what the timeline shows,

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Speaker 1: from June seventy six to July nine, he committed overall

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Speaker 1: fifty one crimes as the East Area Rapist. As the

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Speaker 1: Original night Stalker, he committed seven known crimes with multiple homicides.

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Speaker 1: That marks his move from break ins to rape to murder.

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Speaker 1: So stay tuned. After a brief break for our sponsor,

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Speaker 1: we will return and give you a grim introduction to

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Speaker 1: the man known as Joseph James D'Angelo Jr. So there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of great timelines that have come out

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Speaker 1: so far, a lot of them pretty brief, but we

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Speaker 1: stumbled upon one on Reddit that been found and we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna kind of go over this and hit some

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Speaker 1: of the high points and low points in this man's life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can find You can find this on the East

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Speaker 1: Area Rapist Original nights Stalker subreddit posted by a user

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Speaker 1: named Sacred Geometry. And I know it might sound, uh

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Speaker 1: maybe a little cursory for the three of us to

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Speaker 1: be citing this sort of source, but this person has

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Speaker 1: done their homework extensively and we found quite a quite

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Speaker 1: a thorough, robust timeline here that follows from the birth

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Speaker 1: of D'Angelo to the arrest. He was born November eight

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Speaker 1: in Bath, New York. Yeah, and just to jump on

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Speaker 1: there with what Ben was saying, I linked up some

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Speaker 1: of these dates just as effact checking exercise, and the

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Speaker 1: Sacramento B has much of the same exact stuff on it.

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Speaker 1: So and shout out to the Sacramento B. They've been

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Speaker 1: really leading the charge on reporting here. So he's born

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Speaker 1: ve Then in nineteen sixty four he joins the Navy.

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Speaker 1: He enlists there, and he goes into naval training that

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Speaker 1: same year in San Diego. And this is where he

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Speaker 1: would have, as part of his training, learned a lot

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Speaker 1: of knots that the average person would not would either

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Speaker 1: not be aware of or would not be able to

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Speaker 1: do on command. Specifically, like that diamond knot. Specifically like

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Speaker 1: that diamond knot, Matt, is that like a sheepshank was

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Speaker 1: at some kind of like specialized sailing knot. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it was found at several of the crime scenes.

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Speaker 1: I knew that, but I just you know, is it

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Speaker 1: is it a particularly tricky one? Not tricky, just you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you wouldn't think to make that way It's super

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Speaker 1: interesting too when you you know, it's such a long

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Speaker 1: timeline of crime and now we have um a person

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Speaker 1: to associate with it. This timeline that we're looking at

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Speaker 1: has photographs of him through about his life, which is

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Speaker 1: really interesting just to visually trace his you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of progression and think about what he was doing at

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Speaker 1: the time that those photos were taken. UM. So he did,

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Speaker 1: in fact serve in the Vietnam War. UM. And then

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Speaker 1: in August of nineteen sixty eight, he goes to Sierra

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Speaker 1: College is in Rockland, California, and fascinatingly got an associate

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Speaker 1: degree in police science that that could come in Andy

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Speaker 1: m Yeah, he also attends later after the year. After

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Speaker 1: he graduates with an associate degree in police science, he

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Speaker 1: goes to cs U and Sacramento, where he spends a

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Speaker 1: year earning a bachelor's in criminal justice. And the same

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Speaker 1: year he gets out of there, in nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 1: he has UH. He spends the next approximate year UH

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Speaker 1: sometime during nine and nineteen seventy three, he completes an

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Speaker 1: internship in the Roseville Patrol This this is interesting because

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Speaker 1: at the time, if we look at the context, many

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Speaker 1: police officers and law enforcement professionals did not have college

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Speaker 1: education or higher education to this degree, not to mention

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Speaker 1: an internship. So it's somewhat strange that will see this

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Speaker 1: as his career continues. It's somewhat strange that he goes

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Speaker 1: to smaller police forces. You know, he could have maybe

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Speaker 1: written a ticket to Los Angeles or Chicago, but for

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Speaker 1: some reason, he stayed in these in these smaller areas. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The same year wherein we believe he completes his internship,

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Speaker 1: he joins the Exeter Police Department on their burglary task

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Speaker 1: force in May of nineteen seventy three. May of nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy three is also when experts believe the Vassalia Ransacker

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Speaker 1: crimes began. Yeah, the burglary crimes. Hey, I'm on a

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Speaker 1: burglary task force. In such a trope in fiction, right,

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Speaker 1: like the what was that movie about the crime scene

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Speaker 1: photographer Nightcrawlers? Who who starts perpetrating crimes? Does he not? Really?

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Speaker 1: Kind of yes, he does, that's true. He does. That's

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Speaker 1: very true. He at first it starts off that he's

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Speaker 1: he's looking for the big scoops and then in order

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Speaker 1: to get them, he kind of starts behaving in a

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Speaker 1: in a monstrous way. He escalates, or like Dexter for example,

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Speaker 1: Not that it's like a good show exactly, but you

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Speaker 1: know blood expert who is also a serial or would

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Speaker 1: Jude Law from Road to Perdition be an example. I

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Speaker 1: don't wow, I don't remember. It's been a minute. What

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Speaker 1: was he what was his deal? I feel like we

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Speaker 1: may be on the verge of a spoiler alert. It's

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Speaker 1: okay if we if we say it okay, then it's okay,

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Speaker 1: all right. Just don't don't get Tom Hanks angry at

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Speaker 1: us for spoiling his movies. Road to Perdition spoiler coming

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Speaker 1: in three two one. Jude Law's character is a photographer

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Speaker 1: who is also killing people to get the best photographs

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Speaker 1: of crime scenes. Yeow, yeah, but this and it's a

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Speaker 1: solid film. If you haven't seen, Oh, it's coming back

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Speaker 1: to me. I haven't seen it since it was in

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Speaker 1: the theaters, but now I'm having flashes of it and

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Speaker 1: it was quite good. One thing to point out here,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy Joseph was engaged and then he got

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Speaker 1: married in nineteen seventy three as well. If we're imagining

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Speaker 1: so he's got his professional life and he's also got

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Speaker 1: his personal life that's going on. So he's engaged. And

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Speaker 1: then three years later he gets married. At this in

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Speaker 1: the same year that the Vasilia ransackers, right, but he

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Speaker 1: doesn't marry the woman he was originally engaged to know,

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Speaker 1: he married someone different. And Uh, in seventy five, as

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Speaker 1: we said, Claude Snelling is murdered during the attempted kidnapping. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's an attempted murder of an officer McGowan in December

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Speaker 1: of the same year when the police got close to

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Speaker 1: apprehending the rand Sacker. And then this is when not

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Speaker 1: only does the Ransacker disappear from Vizalea, but someone in

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Speaker 1: Sacramento begins committing the East Area rapist crimes. For d'angelo's part,

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Speaker 1: he has relocated to the Auburn Police Department. So again

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Speaker 1: these relocations, at least timing wise, begin to match up.

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Speaker 1: And then in nineteen seventy nine, he gets caught and

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Speaker 1: he's shop but not for any of these major crimes.

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Speaker 1: He gets caught shoplifting. It's a hammer and what was

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Speaker 1: the other thing, Oh it was it was not tape um,

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Speaker 1: But yeah, he got shop, got caught shoplifting small items. Yeah, specifically,

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Speaker 1: I know a hammer was one of the major things.

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Speaker 1: Was the kind of items that you maybe wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: a record of you having purchased. I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: it definitely seemed a bit strange, specifically with that hammer.

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Speaker 1: But the police to apartment finds out because he is

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Speaker 1: actually found guilty of shoplifting and then he gets fired

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Speaker 1: from the Auburn Police Department in August of seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: And many people will tell you that there was a

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Speaker 1: slight pausing crime at that time. That's not entirely true

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Speaker 1: because in October of seventy nine, we know that there

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Speaker 1: was an attack that went wrong on the on the

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Speaker 1: E A R Side on what would be classified as

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Speaker 1: the original night Stalker crimes, and tried to break in

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Speaker 1: and assault and murder a couple, but he botched it. Then,

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Speaker 1: as the original night Stalker, there was the murder of

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Speaker 1: Robert Offerman and Deborah Manning in December of nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: The next month there's a pause. March of nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: Lyman and Charlene Smith are murdered. In August, Keith and

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Speaker 1: Patrice Harrington or murdered uh at. During this time, D'Angelo

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Speaker 1: buys a home in a name borhood called Citrus Heights.

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Speaker 1: February one, woman named Manuela Whithoun is murdered, and then

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Speaker 1: to jump back into his personal life, his first child

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Speaker 1: is born in September one, another huge change in his life.

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Speaker 1: And then you see that there's a bit of a break,

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Speaker 1: a big gap here, um that happens after September one, right,

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Speaker 1: a five year gap in May of so the murder

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Speaker 1: before the child was Sherry Domingo and Greg Sanchez. In

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Speaker 1: July one, Matt, as you said, September one, D'Angelo has

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Speaker 1: his first child and in Los Angeles, but he wasn't

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Speaker 1: living there, was he His child was born in Sacramento.

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Speaker 1: And then, ma, as you said, radio silence for five

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Speaker 1: years at least as far as we know. In May

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Speaker 1: ninety six, another murder is associated with the original night Stalker,

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Speaker 1: that's Janelle Cruise. And in that same or in November, um,

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Speaker 1: he has his second child in Los Angeles, but did

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Speaker 1: he live there for an extended amount of time. It

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Speaker 1: seemed like he was sticking to the smaller areas well.

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Speaker 1: We know that the murders, at least the document of

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Speaker 1: ones appeared to have stopped at that time, and as

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Speaker 1: as as we look, he continues on for a while

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Speaker 1: to have a relatively normal life. Despite what some of

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Speaker 1: us might assume about about killers, and despite how we

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Speaker 1: would assume having a criminal record for shoplifting would screw

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Speaker 1: up your job prospects, he he seems to have continued.

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Speaker 1: He stayed working at the same place until retirement, the

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Speaker 1: save mart, which was I guess he was like a

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Speaker 1: loader or something in the in a distribution center, or

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Speaker 1: he definitely worked at the distribution center. And I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: after working that many years, he probably moved up the ladder,

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Speaker 1: but we don't have that information. Yeah, from August nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty nine, he was working at that distribution center nol

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Speaker 1: mentioned in Ru's Belle, California, and he worked there until

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Speaker 1: what until last year. It's retirement age, so he was

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Speaker 1: settled in and everything seemed to indicate that this guy

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Speaker 1: would you know, retire and relative obscurity. He was living

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Speaker 1: with one of his daughters at the time and her husband,

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Speaker 1: so that would put him today at in the neighborhood

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Speaker 1: of seventy two years of age, and that would put

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Speaker 1: the assuming and there's a big assumption that's probably incorrect.

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Speaker 1: Assuming that all the crimes that occurred are the crimes

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Speaker 1: we know about h then that would put him at

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Speaker 1: a murder rate of twelve to thirteen people UHT, five

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Speaker 1: to fifty sexual assaults easily more than a d and

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Speaker 1: twenty homes broken into. Yeah, and that's, of course, if

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Speaker 1: he actually did all of these crimes, and that that's

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Speaker 1: a very good point to make. If, of course he

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Speaker 1: actually did all of these crimes. He's being charged for

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Speaker 1: several murders right now as we're recording this, but it's

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Speaker 1: not all of them. Well what's that based on? Guys? What? What?

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Speaker 1: What do we actually know? We'll answer what might be

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Speaker 1: the most important question in today's episode after a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. This man

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Speaker 1: Angelo was associated with these crimes, not through a bunch

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Speaker 1: of people digging through micro fiche or hunting down old

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Speaker 1: leads alone. No, this man was apprehended due to a

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Speaker 1: lead they derived from d n A, a DNA database.

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Speaker 1: So one of the first questions is how did they

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Speaker 1: find this DNA because clearly, like in the nineties seventies,

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Speaker 1: for instance, they wouldn't have had the sophistication in terms

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Speaker 1: of technology to investigate this. You can find a loose

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Speaker 1: leaf notebook or something, but you wouldn't automatically be able

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Speaker 1: to pull that info off of it totally. And when

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Speaker 1: I first saw this case the story, I assumed that

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Speaker 1: they had a sample of his DNA that ended up

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Speaker 1: in one of these databases. But that's not quite how

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Speaker 1: it went down, is it. No, not quite. It turns

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Speaker 1: out that they took crime scene DNA which they had

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Speaker 1: had from the time of the crimes, and ran it

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Speaker 1: through various databases where all of a sudden, ding ding ding,

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Speaker 1: it showed a match to what would turn out to

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Speaker 1: be one on d'angelo's distant relatives U someone who was

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Speaker 1: who had their DNA in a public database. So let's

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Speaker 1: let's look at that arrest. Though it isn't until March

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Speaker 1: of this year as we record this Marchen that he

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Speaker 1: is identified as a suspect in these in these decade

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Speaker 1: old crimes via a public database. And what's strange about

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Speaker 1: it happening in two thousand eighteen for a lot of

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Speaker 1: people is the idea that WHOA and authorities would hold

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Speaker 1: on to this information for decades and not do anything

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Speaker 1: in DNA was just emerging as a criminal investigative tool,

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Speaker 1: and according to the experts, D'Angelo, as a former police officer,

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Speaker 1: would have probably, according to them, have known that this

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Speaker 1: thing was on the way or there was a possibility

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Speaker 1: at least. So when they when they started looking for this,

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Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff we read about says that

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Speaker 1: they found a match that was a distant relative. But

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Speaker 1: what does that mean. Oh well, it means that they

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Speaker 1: took what they did have as far as DNA evidence

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Speaker 1: from this killer, and they threw it into one of

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Speaker 1: these databases called g D match dot com, and they

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Speaker 1: found a fourth cousin of D'Angelo. Now they have no

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Speaker 1: idea at this point who D'Angelo is. They just know

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Speaker 1: that this DNA match matches this person at least in

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Speaker 1: some way, and this person had used this g e

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Speaker 1: D match program already and this the service. And then

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Speaker 1: they start looking through this person's family tree, this fourth cousin,

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Speaker 1: and then they start trying to match up people's backgrounds

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Speaker 1: from that family tree, and does anybody match up. Do

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Speaker 1: they live in Vassilia around this time, Do they live

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Speaker 1: in Sacramento around this time? Um? And they start picking

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Speaker 1: out a few people to look at, and they eventually

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Speaker 1: come upon Mr D'Angelo and uh, it's a really strange

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Speaker 1: process how that I just happened to work. Remember on

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Speaker 1: the the Here's Where It Gets Crazy episode, we talked

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Speaker 1: about this whole thing, and there was a story about

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Speaker 1: this very same process that led them to like a

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Speaker 1: false positive. That can happen too, because they they got

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Speaker 1: a hit, but the guy didn't match criteria for the

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Speaker 1: crime they were trying to to solve. So they looked

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Speaker 1: at like his son or something like that, and it

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00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: matched a little more, and so they went with that

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Speaker 1: and then ended up not being Yeah, well, in this case,

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Speaker 1: the investigation is fascinating because they got this match with

428
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: the fourth cousin. Then they actually start looking at this

429
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: guy and they start staking out his house for like

430
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: six or seven days, yeah, exactly, and they're looking at

431
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: his trash. I mean, they don't they don't state specifically

432
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: how they got the DNA samples, but they do say

433
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: it was probably from a container that he had drunken,

434
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: he had taken a drink out of, and they would

435
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: watch him come in and out of his house, and

436
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: they you know, then they took that DNA sample and

437
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: they tested it with the other DNA that they had

438
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: from the previous case, and they went, oh, boy, guess what.

439
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: Somehow we got the guy. It's him. Yeah, And the

440
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: match was not something that was contested. We can't be

441
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: more clear about this. It wasn't It wasn't like, oh,

442
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: to go to indicator, let's see. I know this. This

443
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: was something that had been under investigation in a while,

444
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: for for some time. A criminologist in Contra Costa County,

445
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: way back in two thousand and one had linked two

446
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: sets of cases to the same individual thanks to DNA evidence.

447
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: They just didn't know who it was. And that was

448
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: the East Area rapist and the original night stocker. Yeah.

449
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: And to to the point that that you made knowl

450
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: when they get the d n A, it led them

451
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: to a number of people, right, and they had to

452
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: separate timeline. So they had to spend this time surveilling

453
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: this guy and going through his trash. Most likely, although

454
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: they don't say it that way because I don't think

455
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: they want that image of law enforcement to be you know,

456
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: they want to be presented as people digging through your trash.

457
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: But I will but and they you know, they're there

458
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: is a beyondent likelihood, beyond likelihood that they have the

459
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: right guy. This is the US, so technically he's innocent

460
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: until proven guilty. Digging through trash is just good police work.

461
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: I would agree, I would agree. And this this is

462
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: where the story stands. As the story emerges, we're going

463
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: to hear new updates. Will we can go ahead and

464
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: call it. We're inevitably gonna hear I think the conviction

465
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: of this criminal um. On a side note, the neighbors

466
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: said the same things that you would hear about serial

467
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: killers in works of fiction. They said he was kind

468
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: of a recluse. We didn't think he was a killer

469
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: or a monster. They did say he was prone to

470
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: violent public outbursts. Did you catch that? But but somehow

471
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: you've maintained it and kept it under control for years

472
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: and years and years after his children were born, except

473
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: for one case right after his first daughter. Again, that is,

474
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: unless more stuff emerges, like we of pointing out earlier,

475
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: Unless it comes out that he is implicated and other stuff,

476
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: I would be at this point, I would be surprised

477
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: because if there were DNA leavings from other crimes, they

478
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: would have also pinned on those databases. Right, because those

479
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: databases work together pretty well. And this leads into the

480
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: larger implication, which is a big question for us today.

481
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: What what does this mean for not just the like

482
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 1: the DNA of criminals and these human monsters like serial killers,

483
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: but what does this mean for you right now listening

484
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: your DNA. We talked a little bit about this with

485
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: an excellent postum in our community page. Like you mentioned, Nolan,

486
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: here's where it gets crazy. And sometimes the three of

487
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: us are usually on the same page about a lot

488
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: of things. I mean, we get along famously, but we

489
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: might have some differing opinions about DNA testing, like a

490
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: number of people, and this is just personally. I've held

491
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: off on some DNA testing due to privacy concerns. Yeah,

492
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: that's a good call, and that seems to be a

493
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: sentiment shared by many. Oh yeah yeah, and No, you

494
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: had earlier mentioned that you had experience with DNA testing

495
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: from our earlier show Stuff of Life. I did, and

496
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: I kind of just threw myself into it like a

497
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: big dummy, thinking this will be cute and it's free,

498
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: so why not. Um kind of regretting it a little

499
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: bit after digging into some of this stuff. A little

500
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: bit more, not that I have anything to hide that

501
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: I'm worried about, you know, the government making a clone

502
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: army based on my pristine DNA. I would do it

503
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: if I could, Buddy, that's really sweet. But but here's

504
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: the deal. Yeah, what we found with this case is

505
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: that it doesn't even matter if you have or have

506
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: not submitted your DNA. Oh exactly. That's that's why I

507
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: said earlier. When I first read the details of this,

508
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I guess he did one of those,

509
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: and then they got access to it somehow. Now it

510
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: was somewhere way down the line you can't control. We

511
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: haven't even met our fifth cousins. Ben and I did

512
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: an episode about lineage in our other show, Ridiculous History,

513
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: and the idea of knowing personally a fifth cousin was

514
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: sort of absurd, well at least for for us, for

515
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: our Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant between between us

516
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 1: um Ben, I think you said you were aware of

517
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: some fifth cousins, but you certainly aren't, you know, taking

518
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: in a movie of a weekend. Yeah, I come from

519
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: a strange place, but but yeah, it met. You make

520
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: an excellent point that in other cultures in place around

521
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: the world, it's quite common to know your extended family

522
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: or even live with them, or you know, maybe you're

523
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: all in the same town or the same region. Uh.

524
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: Not a lot of people here in the US are

525
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: that close. And there are these implications that you mentioned.

526
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: It's not somebody, it's not always going to be case

527
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: of someone signing up directly. We know that the military,

528
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, will take DNA samples. Now, if

529
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: you are involved in law enforcement on the wrong side,

530
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: if you get caught, then your DNA will go into

531
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: a system. But the implications are that even if you say,

532
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: like let's say Matt mayis you as an example. Okay,

533
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: let's say that Paul uh doesn't has never never been

534
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,959
Speaker 1: to jail because he's a paragon of of upstanding young

535
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: gentleman this. And let's say he was also never in

536
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: the military or something like that. And let's say he

537
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: also additionally never signed up for something like twenty three

538
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: and meter ancestry dot com or anything like that. If, however,

539
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: one of Paul's relatives signs up for this thing, or

540
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: if one of his relatives joins the right kind of organization,

541
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 1: or if god forbid, they get in trouble with the law,

542
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: then they will end up in the system, which means,

543
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: by extension, he has ended up in a system whether

544
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: or not he agreed to be there. And in this case,

545
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: it would be probably metadata on Paul. It wouldn't actually

546
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: have his DNA or anything, right, I mean, that's how

547
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: this whole thing would work. It's just you're in the

548
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: system now because you are related in some way. Right. Yeah,

549
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about how this data

550
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: is supposed to be made anonymous. I can't pronounce it.

551
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: Can you help me out? Anonymized? There we go, hold

552
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: in one. Yes, anonymity, anonymity my enemies anonymity and enmity

553
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: and enmity, Uh means many things to me if we're

554
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: just going to finish the poem. But the the strange

555
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: thing here is that we you know, we can't help.

556
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: But think of the comparison to big data and Facebook

557
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: or the so called frictional list sharing. Right. We have

558
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: friends who have never been on Facebook and never want

559
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: to be for various reasons of their own, but because

560
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: they know us, or because if you have friends like this,

561
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: they know you. Facebook has a shadow profile on them.

562
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: And again for anyone who heard our Cambridge analytic episode.

563
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: Facebook doesn't like us to call them shadow profiles. It

564
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: sounds spooky. Yeah, but literally everybody else except for Facebook

565
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: calls them shadow profile. What what their internal nomenclature is

566
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: for it, I don't know. Maybe they call them like

567
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: headstart profiles, fun pages, fun pages, party profiles. So right now,

568
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: there's no escaping that this this stuff has made life

569
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: massively better or at the very least provided some sense

570
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: of closure for people who are survivors of the TEMs

571
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: of these horrific atrocities. But that doesn't mean that we

572
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: should forget the implications. At least that's what a lot

573
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: of critics are saying about this stuff. Once you give

574
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: that data way, you yourself have little to know legal

575
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: legal protection regarding what happens to that information, and you

576
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: have no control over where it ultimately ends up. We

577
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: found we found an interesting take on this from the Parallax,

578
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: which does a pretty solid job of painting the backgrounds

579
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: here of the of the current industry and where it

580
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: seems set to go. Yeah, there are a lot of

581
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 1: um possible positives that are here in this industry. So

582
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 1: it says, quote the consumer DNA market is poised to

583
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: become the ten billion dollar business by dozens of companies

584
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: sell home DNA kits. Some like ancestry dot Com and

585
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: family Tree DNA allow you to divine your ethnic background

586
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: and connect you with different distant relatives. Others like twenty

587
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: three and Me can also identify genes linked to ten diseases,

588
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: including Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and Celiac's. Mine didn't do any of

589
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: that stuff. See twenty three and me is pretty cool

590
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: in that regard, And I mean it's pretty great. You

591
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: can see ads for these services. Uh they talk about

592
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: how millions of people are already using them. Why don't

593
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: you join in and let's find out. Well, I mean yeah,

594
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: because they gotta get that um. But what they don't

595
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: tell you is that unlocking your genetic code could also

596
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: get you into trouble, legal trouble. Specifically, you can also

597
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: prevent you from getting life insurance if you find something

598
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 1: in your DNA that you didn't know was there before,

599
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: and now your insurance company is all like, uh yeah, yeah, man.

600
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: It's at least if you like lie on your insurance

601
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: papers and say you don't smoke, and then they like

602
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 1: ransack your Facebook page and find a picture of you smoking. Okay,

603
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: that's all in good fun. You know, they they gave

604
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: good chase. Whatever this is, like, you know this is it? Yeah, well,

605
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 1: here's the worst one for you. What if you, let's say,

606
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: do twenty three and me, then you find out, oh wait,

607
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: that's not my dad. That would be pretty messed up, right,

608
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: are you my dad? Matt? I'm just saying, well, you'll

609
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: find out one day soon. Uh so? Uh no, daddy, No,

610
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: But like this is a genuine thing that I'm assuming

611
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: has happened. I haven't seen it reported, but surely like you,

612
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: you you understand the risk of finding out something like

613
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: maybe you don't though. Maybe that's the thing they think

614
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: it just pops up as a notification, like your dad.

615
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: Maybe they send like a very avuncular guy to come

616
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: in and break the news to you while he takes

617
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 1: your fishing or something. That's one of these things too.

618
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: If we start like really like we're going out a

619
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: rabbit hole here, but getting into the territory of targeted ads,

620
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: what if you start getting ads targeted at you because

621
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 1: of your DNA information? Right, Yeah, that a great question.

622
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it is completely it used to be possible.

623
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: We're about two years from it being plausible. And it's

624
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: a spooky escalation. Like in the same way that person

625
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: got um an ad for a baby product right before

626
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: knowing No the father, I think the household received an

627
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: ad for in the mail for expectant mothers, and that's

628
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: how they found out that their daughter was pregnant. Target

629
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: literally knew before they do. It's why they're called Target Boy.

630
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: No kidding, man. And now, whenever I don't know about you,

631
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: I don't want to ruin this for anybody who still

632
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: receives those circulars and those you know, the slightly better

633
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: quality than straight up newspaper coupon books when when I

634
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: received those. Now ever, since we we did that episode

635
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: and looked into that stuff, I always get a little

636
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: freaked out. And I always try to treat it like

637
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: a magic eight ball or some tea leaves for the

638
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: believers in uh prognostication, you know, I always always wonder, like,

639
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: what what what do they know about me that made

640
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: them think I need to deck At this point, I

641
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: just kind of wish they would deliver my mail directly

642
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: into the trash. Yeah, saved me as a trip I

643
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: use it for art projects. It's cool, you're a very

644
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: enterprising and earth friendly um individual. Cheap is another way

645
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: to put it, but a thrifty, brave, clean, and reverence

646
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: if you get that right. In Uh, there's a there's

647
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 1: a real world example of this stuff happening, at least

648
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: the life insurance stuff happening. In two thousand and sixteen

649
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: of a writer named Christina Farr, writing for Fast Company,

650
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 1: gave us the story of someone identified as Jennifer Marie,

651
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 1: not the real name to protect their privacy, although the

652
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: horse may have already left the barn there uh. At

653
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: the time, she was thirty six, gainfully employed, and had

654
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 1: no current medical issues. But on September of twenty fifteen,

655
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: her application for life insurance was denied. And here's the

656
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: quote they used. Unfortunately, after carefully reviewing your application, we

657
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: regret that we were unable to provide you with the

658
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: coverage because of your positive b r c A one gene.

659
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 1: The letter reads. In the US, for background far rights,

660
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: about one and four women have a b r c

661
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: A one or two gene and it's associated with an

662
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: increased risk of breast or ovarian cancer. Wow. So she

663
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: was denied that because she had done one of these tests,

664
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: because the insurance company had access to that genetic information.

665
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: So now does that qualify as a as a pre

666
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: existing condition? Does you know? Is it something where we

667
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: would have to say from the life insurance company and

668
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, of course the US is privatized insurance. From

669
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 1: the life insurance company's perspective, is it a matter of

670
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: in the long run, protecting the rest of their customers

671
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: so they don't go under what you mean? Is that

672
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: part of it? How do they how do they address that?

673
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: How do they process that? Stop being private companies selling

674
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: health insurance? That's how that's how they fix that. A

675
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: lot of people would make that argument, but there is

676
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 1: there is hope in form of the Genetic Non Discrimination Act,

677
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: which we mentioned I think previously as well, and also

678
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: known as GINA. It is meant to prohibit employers and

679
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: health insurers from using your genetic info against you. However,

680
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: it is full of loopholes and Congress is going to

681
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: swiss cheese it a little bit more. And this goes

682
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: back to that question we asked before we received a

683
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: fantastic comment regarding the the idea of UM how to

684
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:10,479
Speaker 1: prioritize technological process progress and potential gains. Right, if we're

685
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: risking ruining the lives and the livelihoods of a few people,

686
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: certainly maybe more than we think, is that worth the

687
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: potential of saving maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions

688
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 1: of lives down the line. I mean this, this becomes

689
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: a very deep dilemma very quickly. I don't know what.

690
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: What do you guys think? We talked about it a

691
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: little bit about this earlier. I definitely see the side

692
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: and mentioned this in the other episode that we're just recorded.

693
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: Just I do see this as being a great thing

694
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: potentially in the long run, specifically fixing a lot of

695
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: these genetic disorders, just by having enough data, because that's

696
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: one of the biggest problems is not being able to

697
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: track DNA over time and looking at how these specific

698
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: sequences actually really change a human beings development. I think

699
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: it could be huge, and it could be exactly what

700
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: we need. But is it for everybody? Though? Like? Is

701
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: it is? It? Is it gonna mean the wealthy are

702
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: going to be prioritized and be able to, you know,

703
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: extend their lives and the lives of their offspring by

704
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 1: having access to this because of their wealth. Certainly, Yes,

705
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: that's what will happen um until there's some big change.

706
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: And and here's the here's the other thing. What happens

707
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: when let's just say, the wrong group of people ends

708
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: up getting in power somehow, and there are all of

709
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: these databases that can be found and someone in power

710
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: wants to, let's say, get rid of certain types of

711
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: DNA in the culture mass eugenics or something. You've got

712
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: literally all of the data that you would ever need

713
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 1: for that, if you know, it's compulsory, and everyone eventually

714
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: one day signs up for something like this because you

715
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: kind of have to present your papers the way it

716
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: was in various world wars. It's spit into this tube

717
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: and stand here wait, I mean, that's a that's a

718
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: terrifying thing. We'd all like to think it's it's far

719
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: it's far off right, or that it's not actually going

720
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: to happen, sort of a nimbi process. Not in my backyard.

721
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: But at this point, you know, again, if you haven't

722
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: written into us about this, we we we want to

723
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: hear from you. Where do you fall on the side

724
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: of the line. And we want to end today's episode with,

725
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: first off, a clear admission again, Joseph James D'Angelo has

726
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: not been convicted. He is, he is talking from what

727
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: we understand, and he is confessing, but that doesn't he

728
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: hasn't had the court time yet. Although it's it's pretty

729
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: much a clear cut. Do we know anything about his

730
00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: mental state apparently aside from the violent outburst, Uh, he

731
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: does appear lucid interesting, which is which is interesting. And

732
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: you know right now, given the time that's elapsed, if

733
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: there are other crimes or murders, he is literally the

734
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: best chance of finding them. Oh yeah, And and every

735
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: day we're finding out new things. I would follow the

736
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 1: Sacramento B online if you can, you have the time

737
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,839
Speaker 1: to do it and you're interested in this case. They're

738
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: all kinds of new little stories about maybe he had

739
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: an accomplice during some of these crimes, maybe it was

740
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: a breakup that sent him on that first raping spring,

741
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: unsuccessful engagement. Yeah, I mean there's all there was all

742
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: kinds of interesting things coming out, and I just have

743
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: to say, like we said before, the Sacramento B is

744
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: the place that I'm finding them the soonest. And we

745
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: have one other thing here, not not a conclusion. There's

746
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: not really a conclusion to this story yet and not

747
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: not a shout out corner, though we will be returning

748
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: that segment soon. We have something that when we were

749
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: talking about this off off air, we're all texting each

750
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: other as we're as we were working on this, and

751
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: nol you pointed out to us another recent development involving

752
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: DNA and killers and the Sacramento b um they I

753
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: believe we're first on the scene to report that police

754
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: in vallejo Um have obtained DNA supposedly linked to the

755
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: Zodiac Killer and that it's being processed in a lab

756
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: and we could see results any day now. This was

757
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: on May the two, and they're probably gonna do a

758
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 1: lot of the same things here, or at least potentially

759
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: doing the same things, finding that match, linking that up,

760
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: and then going from their familial searches looking looking at

761
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: that trash again. Maybe maybe trash going through belongates. You know,

762
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: there's not really a different way to phrase it. But

763
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: today this ends our episode. From now our update on

764
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: the Golden State Killer a k a. The Diamond Not

765
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: Killer a k a. The Original night Stalker a k a.

766
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: The East Area Rapist, and the Salia Ransacker. We would

767
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: like to hear from you what what do you think

768
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: will be the results of this What do you think

769
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: of a world wherein for the greater good, everyone's DNA

770
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: is considered part of this large database. Would do you

771
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: think the benefits outweigh the negatives? I mean, in this case,

772
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: it seems pretty clear cut that they do. I propose

773
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: that it's very similar to requiring you know, this is

774
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: gonna be controversial, maybe to register your car. Your car

775
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 1: has to be in a database because it could either

776
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: allow you to escape from a criminal act or you

777
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: could even use it as a weapon. It is a

778
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: very powerful thing, um, and you can't have a car

779
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: unless you register it. You can do all those things

780
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: with your human body. So yeah, that that logic. I mean,

781
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I necessarily support that, but I

782
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: could see law enforcement surely thinking that this is something

783
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: that would be very helpful and important to solving crimes,

784
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: but at the risk of of what privacy and uh,

785
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: it's my d n A. You also have a requirement

786
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 1: to have a license to operate a car, would you

787
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: have would that lead into having a license to reproduce

788
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll double down out here on controversy here. Uh,

789
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: there are inevitably some some of you listening are are

790
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: going to see the potential parallel thread between registering a car,

791
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: registering DNA, registering a firearm. If we're gonna go controversial, right, yeah,

792
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I mean, that's a really

793
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: interesting argument though, because you can't have an unregistered car.

794
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: But you're right though, when you start going, you know,

795
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 1: taking that and taking it to well, what if then

796
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 1: you you need a license to reproduce? Or then we

797
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: start entering when we start, when we start putting our

798
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: physical forms into the into the equation and treating them

799
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: as though we as though it were a motor vehicle

800
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: or a gun or something like that, that really opens

801
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: up a lot of a lot of worm cans. It

802
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: is interesting, I am. It's so weird. I would have

803
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: been so against this, thousand percent against all of this,

804
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: and for some reason, somehow, as I'm getting older, oh gosh,

805
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: you guys, I'm kind of like, well, get everyone a

806
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: DNA scan and put it on a tattoo and then

807
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: their arms in their registered and if anyone does no no,

808
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 1: we will find you no no yes. If you no no,

809
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: then we get you. I love this voice. It sounds

810
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: like he's either got loose dentures or he's also eating

811
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: cottage cheese. I'm not sure there's a cottage cheese is

812
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: one of the finest foods you can eat. I would

813
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: recommend it early in the morning and laid it in

814
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: the afternoon and also early at night. Well, you know

815
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: what I have to say, thank you so much for

816
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 1: giving us a note of levity gracing us. Yeah, Gray

817
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 1: seen us. That was saying. I can't stop smiling at

818
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: that old man. Man. That's what happens to you get old.

819
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: You start to decide you want to give up all

820
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: your civil liberties, or at least the young whipper snappers

821
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: should right with with with those realizations. Also, your voice

822
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: changes and you start to sound like a very very

823
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: old man. Yeah, it's mostly the the testicular droup, I

824
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: think is what causes that. I keep trying to get

825
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: a rise out of Paul mission control decond and he's

826
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: just not even No, that's not true. You're not seeing

827
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: him from the angle that I'm seeing him. He had

828
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 1: a he's got a smirk, he's got a bit of

829
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: a glimmer of a smile, and as always want to

830
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: thank you for tuning in. You are the most important

831
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 1: part of the show and we would like to hear

832
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,439
Speaker 1: from you. Tell us what do you think about DNA

833
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: collection and all of this stuff. Do you think they

834
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,879
Speaker 1: got the right person? Do you think there's someone else

835
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 1: out there? What? What? What else? Do you think about

836
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: the East Area rapist? Have you ever lived in any

837
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: of those races? How did these crimes affect you growing up?

838
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: Just anything you want to talk about. Is there another

839
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: serial killer that you think we need to jump and

840
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,479
Speaker 1: jump into a little bit deeper, or maybe information about

841
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: the Zodiac killer because that may potentially be an episode

842
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 1: coming up with all the the things happening right now.

843
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: In that case, talk to us. Let us know. You

844
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,720
Speaker 1: can hit us up on Facebook most of the social media's,

845
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: um we are conspiracy stuff on Facebook, We're conspiracy stuff

846
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 1: show on Instagram. And if you have a cool story,

847
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 1: a little, a little missive uh something about growing up

848
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: in one of these areas, we would love it if

849
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: you left us a voicemail. Please. We are one eight

850
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. You can

851
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: call that number right now, leave a message and it

852
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: might get on the air. Pretty cool. That we're exactly

853
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: seven digits for the for the show acronym. Yeah, I

854
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: can't believe that worked out. If you don't want to

855
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 1: do any of that stuff, but we really wish you'd

856
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: leave the voicemail because we want to see some action

857
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 1: on there. You can just write it's a good old

858
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: fashioned he out. We are conspiracy at House of Works

859
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 1: dot com m m m