1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: My guest today is Raphael Mangwel. Raphael is a Nick 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: Oonell Fellow and head of Research for the Manhattan Institute's 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: Policing and Public Safety Initiative, a contributing editor of City Journal, 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: and the author of the fantastic twenty twenty two book 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 1: Criminal Injustice. Hi, Rafael, so nice to have you on. 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: So great to be with you. It works. 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: I've always been a big fan of your work as well. 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: We run into each other at events. But I kind 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: of feel like I don't know enough about how you 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: got into this world and what made you become a 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: crime fighter. 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know, it's a question that I've gotten 14 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 3: a few times, and you know, it was a very 15 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 3: securitist route. I will say, I'm not your sort of 16 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 3: typical think tank scholar. You know, my father was a 17 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 3: was an MIPD detective. I think that had a lot 18 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 3: to do with it. You know, growing up in nineteen 19 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 3: eighties and nineties, New York City was on everybody's minds. 20 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 3: It was on every TV show, the you know which 21 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: Brooklyn best one? 22 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, I didn't grow up in the 23 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: worst part of Brooklyn. 24 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 3: I mean, we lived on Ocean Parkway between Church and Cayton, 25 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 3: you know, so relatively. 26 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 2: Nice area, but we were very close to some rough ones. 27 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: Especially it was you know, Ocean Parkway returned Church and Cayton. 28 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: I hear you that it's not one of the worst 29 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: parts of Brooklyn, but many of the listeners listening to 30 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: this would be afraid on that block, so you know, 31 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: it was so you. 32 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 3: Know, I remember like the WP I X movie on 33 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: Saturdays was always like a Charles Bronson movie or something 34 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 3: like that. 35 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: Crime was just sort of the theme sure my childhood. 36 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 3: So I think the combination of just living through that 37 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: time where there were, you know, twenty fifteen hundred murders 38 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: a year in New York City, knowing that my dad. 39 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: Was a cop, you know, so to me he was. 40 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: Batman right, and having that experience when I got to college, 41 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 3: I think is really kind of the cocktail that that 42 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 3: sort of set me on the path that I've been 43 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 3: on for the last ten years. You know. When I 44 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: got to college, I was introduced to protest culture. I 45 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: didn't really understand why kids who I regarded to be 46 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 3: incredibly fortunate, were angry at the world and felt like, 47 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 3: you know, they had to hold a sign in stage walkouts, 48 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: and you know, one of the topics that they were 49 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 3: always protesting was, you know, the police, the criminal justice 50 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 3: system writ large. And there's really one moment that kind 51 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: of I can sort of trace my my conservative thought 52 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: back to and and that was my sophomore year college. 53 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 3: Was in a sociology class and we had a guest speaker. 54 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 3: He was an ex con and he was incarcerated under 55 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 3: the Rockefeller drug laws in New York and came. 56 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: To give a talk about his experience. And it was 57 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: really just a diatribe, right. 58 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: It was like the mipd's racist, the criminal systems rigged, 59 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: and it's evil and it's terrible. And you know, I 60 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 3: just remember looking around as like two hundred and fifty 61 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 3: people in a lecture hall, and I just remember looking 62 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 3: around and thinking, seeing all these. 63 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: Heads nodding, and just you don't actually believe him, do you? 64 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 2: You know, I grew up with guys like that. 65 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: It's like, we all know he's full of it, right, right, No. 66 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: One's buying, but everyone was buying it. 67 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: They weren't buying it, right, They weren't just nodding their 68 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: heads to get the A or whatever. 69 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 3: It was like he was injecting drugs into their veins 70 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 3: and giving them an excuse to fall back on if 71 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: their dreams didn't pan out. And I just couldn't identify 72 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 3: with that. But at the same time, and a lot 73 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 3: of people don't know this about me, I was not 74 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: a very good student. I did not end up in 75 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 3: college because of my grades. In fact, I didn't even 76 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: apply to college. I ended up in college because I 77 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: played baseball, and that was it. Had no intention of 78 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 3: going to college when I was in high school. It 79 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 3: was really, you know, a kind of happy accident that 80 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 3: I'm doing and what I do now. So because I 81 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: didn't really study very much, because I wasn't, you know, 82 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 3: a bookish kind of kid, I didn't really have a 83 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 3: vocabulary with which to push back right years. And that 84 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 3: was the first time that I felt a genuine sense 85 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 3: of embarrassment that I couldn't engage intellectually who were my 86 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: age And I felt really insecure about that. 87 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: And so I. 88 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: Remember I went home and I went on asked Jeeves, 89 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 3: which was the search engine of choice. 90 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah Google of its day, pre Google. 91 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 3: And I just searched like books everyone should read, and 92 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: you know, just started researching articles asking you questions about policing. 93 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 2: And that's how I discovered City Journal and the Manhattan. 94 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: City Really wow. 95 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, by the time I. 96 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: Was like twenty years old, I knew what I wanted 97 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 3: to do and then I just had to figure out 98 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 3: how to do it. And so I'm a weird guy 99 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 3: in that sense that I've you know, wanted to work 100 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 3: for a thing, thank since about the time I was 101 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 3: still a teenager. 102 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing that you found City Journal. I mean 103 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: it's a very important organization. Obviously. I love Manhattan Institute, 104 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: one of my absolute favorites, and I love City Journal. 105 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: All their stuff is so good. But and I was 106 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: a conservative in college. I was a political person. But 107 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: even I don't think I knew about City Journal. It's 108 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: not like a giant you know, I read like National Review, 109 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: I read like Weekly Standard at the time. But that's 110 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: really really impressive. So what is your book about? What 111 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: do you try to get into it in your book? 112 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, Criminal Injustice was you know, it kind of grew 113 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 3: out of everything that had been happening in the post 114 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: Ferguson era, Right, I mean, you know, I've been at 115 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: the Manhattan Institute since twenty fifteen, and that was when, 116 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,159 Speaker 3: you know, things had really started to take a downturn. 117 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: You know, the US saw a homicide spike on a 118 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: national level that year. We saw another one the following year. 119 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 3: In twenty sixteen. I had just moved back to New 120 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: York from Chicago, which in twenty sixteen saw a massive 121 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: homicide spike. The last few weeks in Chicago, I was 122 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 3: actually caught in the middle of a shooting while sitting 123 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 3: in a bar with my wife then fiance, So you know, 124 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 3: all of this stuff was kind of swrolling around in 125 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 3: my mind and that was why I was, you know, 126 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: writing so passionately. 127 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 2: Throughout those years about this issue. 128 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 3: But then twenty twenty hit and it was like collectively 129 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 3: lost its mind on crime. You had people saying, you know, 130 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 3: defund the police and actually trying to do it. You 131 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: had these mass you know, releases of jail in mats 132 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: and prisoners, and I just remember thinking, like, how does 133 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 3: anyone expect this to go any other way? And I 134 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: realized that you know, books had been written, you know, 135 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: articles had been written, but it was like there was 136 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: a very obvious It was very obvious to me that 137 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 3: we had forgotten our history, right, that the nineteen nineties 138 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 3: crime decline, which to me I still regard as sort 139 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 3: of the greatest achievement in urban American history. How we 140 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: achieved that was forgotten. People grew uncomfortable with the posture 141 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 3: that you needed to take to keep crime under control, 142 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: and the reason that they were giving in terms of, 143 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 3: you know, why we should dismantle the criminal justice system. 144 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 3: We're defaying it or take power away from it all 145 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 3: came back to the race issue. And that really threw 146 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 3: me for a loop and drove me kind of crazy 147 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 3: because it was exactly the very people, the very communities 148 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: that these you know, sort of progressive activists said that 149 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 3: they were representing that were suffering the brunt of the 150 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 3: crime increases the result of their policies. 151 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: So obvious, Yeah. 152 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 3: And so I just really wanted to bring that point 153 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 3: home before we you know, got past the tipping point, 154 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 3: although you could argue that we had already reached it 155 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 3: by then. You know. 156 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: Unfortunately, books, as you know, don't come out with great speed. 157 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, So you might finish a book, you know, in 158 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: one year, but it might take another year. And some 159 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 3: change before it actually hits shelves, especially back in twenty twenty, 160 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 3: because there was all this stuff going on with lumber 161 00:07:58,600 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: and paper and you know. 162 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I remember that very well. Our book was 163 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: delayed also because of the paper. 164 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: The paper. Yeah, it was why. 165 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 3: I like, my book was printed in one country and 166 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: then shipped to another country to be bound and then ship. 167 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: As wild you know. 168 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 3: But but that was really the driving force. I wanted 169 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: to make the point that decarceration was a bad idea, 170 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 3: that depolicing was a bad idea. I wanted to attack 171 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 3: the assumptions undergirding those bad ideas, and I really wanted 172 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 3: to drill home the point that the communities that were 173 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 3: most vulnerable to crime in the places that adopted the 174 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 3: sort of progressive line on these issues, those were exactly 175 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: the very communities that people were speaking about through organizations 176 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: like Black Lives Matter and the NAACP and you know, 177 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 3: the Progressive Prosecutor movement. It was like, no, actually, if 178 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 3: you care about these communities, you have to address the 179 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 3: one thing that is affecting them more than anyone else, right, 180 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: I mean, like the black homicide rate by twenty twenty 181 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: was like ten times that white homicide rate for men. 182 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: That's you know, that's crazy. 183 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 3: Would never accept that kind of disparity in any other 184 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 3: negative outcome, absolutely, right. And so I mean just look 185 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 3: at COVID, right, I mean, like there was the second 186 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: we realized there was a racial disparity in how COVID 187 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: affected certain groups of people, right, we immediately started creating 188 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: racial hierarchies for the dispensation of COVID, vaccines and drugs. 189 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: Right. 190 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: And yet when it comes to the problem of homicide, 191 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 3: people lose their nerve. And I think that has to 192 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 3: do with you know, this idea that incarcerating people is bad, 193 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: that putting them in handcuffs, even by force, is bad. 194 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 2: And I think at the root of that. 195 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 3: Is just a misunderstanding of how often those things happen, right, 196 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 3: I mean you ask that American like, yeah, they hear constantly, 197 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 3: you know, mass incarceration, mass incarceration. They think that everybody's 198 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 3: in prison in this country, and the reality is is that, 199 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: you know, the typical state prisoner in the US has 200 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 3: about a dozen prior arrests and about half a dozen 201 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 3: prior convictions. You know, this whole idea that we're denying 202 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 3: people second chances and that we just need. 203 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: Right. No, they get second, third, fourth chances in most places. 204 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: You know, it's crazy, you know. 205 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 3: And on top of that, not only do they have 206 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 3: those insane criminal histories, but the vast majority of them 207 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 3: are there for violence, which is another thing that boggles 208 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 3: people's mind because they think everybody's there for you know, 209 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 3: half a granders and they're only spending about sixteen months 210 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 3: behind bars before they're released. When you know, again people 211 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 3: have it in their head that you know, everyone's doing 212 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 3: ten twenty years. So you know, you combine that with 213 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: the misapprehensions about you know, policing and police use of force, 214 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 3: and I just felt like there was a massive gap 215 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 3: in public knowledge between you know, what the public thought 216 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 3: they knew in reality, but there was also a lot 217 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 3: of passion behind their policy prescriptions and the support for it, 218 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: and you know, passion mixed with ignorance. 219 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: This is a real doctail. 220 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 3: And so you know, I don't pretend to be someone 221 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 3: who can control the passions of the masses, but you know, 222 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 3: I wrote the book with the hope that I could 223 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: at least fill some of those knowledge gaps and address 224 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 3: some of the ignorance on that issue. 225 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 4: We'll have more with Rafael Manguel. But first, folks, we're 226 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 4: seeing something truly disturbing. Anti Semitism is on the rise 227 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 4: around the world, and sadly right here in America. Jewish 228 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: schools being targeted, synagogues threatened, families living in fear. It's 229 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 4: something we hoped we'd never see again in our lifetime. 230 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 4: And let me say this, silence is not an option. 231 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 4: This is the moment to take a stand. That's why 232 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 4: I want to tell you about the International Fellowship of 233 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 4: Christians and Jews or IFCJ. They are on the front 234 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 4: lines providing real help where it's needed most. They're giving 235 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 4: food and shelter to Jewish families under threat, building bomb 236 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 4: shelters for children, helping survivors of hate rebuild their lives. 237 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 4: And they don't just respond to crisis, they work every 238 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 4: day to prevent it. Your gift of only forty five 239 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 4: dollars will help support their life saving work by helping 240 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 4: provide food, shelter, and much more. The Bible says I 241 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 4: will bless those who bless you. Supporting IFCJ is a 242 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 4: spiritual stand. It's showing up for God's people when it counts. 243 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 4: So please call eight eight eight four eight eight IFCJ. 244 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 4: That's eight eight eight four eight eight four three two five, 245 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 4: or go to IFCJ dot org. Every dollar helps, don't 246 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 4: wait be the difference. Visit IFCJ dot org or call 247 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 4: eight eight eight four eight eight IFCJ. 248 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: Now. So three years later, in twenty twenty five, looking 249 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: back at your book, Criminal Injustice, do you feel like 250 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: you've won some number of battles that you were fighting. 251 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: In that book? I do, I do. 252 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 3: I can't tell you how many. I mean, Look, I 253 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 3: got a bunch of calls and emails and outreach from 254 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: you know, the people you'd expect, right, you know, police 255 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 3: organizations and prosecutor organizations, and all that was great. You know, 256 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 3: Republicans in Congress began having me testify on a regular 257 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 3: basis that you know. All of that was was good 258 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 3: and important. But the thing that was most gratifying to 259 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 3: me were the emails that I would get from somebody 260 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 3: who was not politically aligned, you know, from you know, 261 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 3: the high school teacher who said, you know, I saw 262 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: this and we've been talking about you know, BLM and 263 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 3: all this stuff in our history class, and I'm gonna 264 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: you know, I'm gonna I'm going to sign an excerpt 265 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 3: from your book because it really moved me and it 266 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: made me think twice about this. It was, you know, 267 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 3: the opportunities to engage with people on the other side 268 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: more directly. I got to debate people like Chase of 269 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 3: Woudin and you know, go out to Berkeley and debate 270 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 3: police abolitions, and you know, being in spaces where I 271 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: was going to reach audiences that I didn't always get 272 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 3: the opportunity to reach. And I felt like, you know, 273 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: that book and you know, the tour and its reception 274 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 3: was part and you know, maybe even helped create the 275 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 3: kind of tie turn that I think we're seeing now. 276 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 3: If you just look at the last election cycle, I mean, 277 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 3: it was kind of a one eighty on the crime 278 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: issue compared to you. 279 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: Know, twenty Nobody supported defunding the police. Nobody. They couldn't 280 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: find anybody who ever supported that crazy idea. 281 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. 282 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: And you had, you know, you know, Pamela Price, the 283 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: progressive prosecutor in Oakland, was recalled along with the anti 284 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 3: police mayor in Oakland, Shang Tao. You had George Gascone, 285 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: the radical prosecutor in Los Angeles, lose his reelection bid 286 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: to Nate Hockman, who ran on a sort of generic 287 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: tough on crime platform. California passed Proposition thirty six, rolling 288 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 3: back Proposition forty seven, reinstituting penalties for theft, you know 289 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 3: in various drug effic and says you had states around 290 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: the curd of Arizona past you know, ballot initiative one 291 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: of them, you know, would would give taxpayers a rebate 292 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 3: if the government failed to clear homeless encampments. Colorado passing 293 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 3: you know a truth and sentence. 294 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 2: I mean, it was like and. 295 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: The rhetoric difference. I mean, the fact that Gavin Newsome 296 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: is looking for the person who did. 297 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: This, you know exactly. 298 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: He can't find who supported these policies. Who was that 299 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: crazy person exactly? 300 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I think I feel like everyone just kind 301 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: of took a pill at the same time and just 302 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 3: ran on a bad trip. 303 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: That's what it felt like watching from the outside in. 304 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 3: But you know, but I do think that there's definitely 305 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: been a vibe shift, and I think I think part 306 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 3: of what's created that is that, you know, people like myself, 307 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 3: my colleagues at the Manhattan Institute, we've been able to 308 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 3: bring a lot more attention to you know, the problems 309 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: with the progressive policy prescriptions on crime. 310 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, and it's not that. 311 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 3: Hard to do, in part because, like when you have 312 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: a really bad no offense, almost inevitably the case that 313 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: the person who did it has you know, ten, fifteen, 314 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: twenty thirty prior arrests, highlighting that and you you know, 315 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 3: you make it clear that those aren't one offs, that 316 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,359 Speaker 3: these are part that that's part of a systematic problem. 317 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 3: You know, regular people will always ask the question, you know, 318 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 3: when they see a story about a guy who committed 319 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 3: a double homicide and had thirty prior arrests, the first 320 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 3: question that any regular person will. 321 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: Ask is why was he out? Yeah? 322 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: And I was he on our street? 323 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 4: Right? 324 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 3: And that's a question that they they've always asked. The 325 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 3: problem was that they thought for a long time that 326 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 3: people like that were always locked up. They thought, you 327 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 3: know that the guy with the long rap sheet, that 328 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: that was a one off. Our work really helped push 329 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: the idea that no, actually they are the rule, not 330 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: the exception. And you know, I'm hopeful that it will help, 331 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: you know, bring us back to the center on this issue, 332 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 3: and that that vibe shift will last for a good 333 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 3: long time. 334 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 335 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. What do you worry about? 336 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: I worry about my kids? 337 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 3: Actually, you know that is uh yeah, it took about 338 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 3: two nanoseconds for that answer to pop into my head 339 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 3: when you ask that. It's one thing they don't tell 340 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 3: you about being a parent, which is amazing. I love 341 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 3: every bit of it. But I worry about my kids 342 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 3: more than I thought I would realize how much you 343 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 3: stress over all the possible outcomes with every actor. It's like, okay, 344 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 3: he's got swimming lessons, like you immediately start. 345 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: Thinking, oh my goodness, what if you try? 346 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? 347 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 3: Right, so, so, yeah, I worry about my kids. That 348 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: is the thing that consumes me. You know, it's not 349 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: debilitating obviously, right right, you know, but but yeah, it's 350 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 3: whatever decisions I'm making throughout the day, I'm almost always 351 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 3: trying to think about how is it going to affect 352 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 3: my kids? How is it going to help my kids? 353 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 3: You know, worrying about their safety, worrying about you know, 354 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 3: their future and the opportunities that they're going to have, 355 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 3: and you know, getting them into summer enrichment programs, just making. 356 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 2: Sure they have a better life than I had. You know, 357 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: it's that's the. 358 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 3: That's the sort of barometer that I keep holding myself to. 359 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 3: And that's actually one of the things that's made parenting easier, right, 360 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 3: because it's like I don't agonize over decisions as much 361 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 3: as I might otherwise, because it really just comes down 362 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: to is this better for them than not? You know, 363 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 3: and that's usually a pretty easy decision to make. 364 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 2: So so, yeah, my. 365 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: Kids, what advice would you give your sixteen year old self? Like, 366 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: what does Raphael at sixteen need to know that he didn't? 367 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 3: Raphael at sixteen needed to know a lot. Raf at 368 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 3: sixteen was not on the best path. Like I said, 369 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 3: I was not a very good student, wasn't didn't really 370 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 3: know what my future was going to be. Sort of 371 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 3: rough plan back then was, you know, graduate high school 372 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 3: if I could, and you know, joined the military and 373 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 3: then figure out some kind of you know, blue collar job, 374 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 3: become a firefighter or cop or. 375 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: Something like that. 376 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 3: And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, but I 377 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 3: just didn't really feel like I had directions, So I 378 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 3: would say it wasn't that wasn't smart, right, like I was. 379 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 3: Clearly I was smart, which is part of the problem huge. 380 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: Ego, and so I think the piece of advice I 381 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 2: would give is is take school more seriously. I closed 382 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: a lot of doors that. 383 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: I could have opened instead, and my life could have 384 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 3: gone very differently. I mean, look, things turned out really well. 385 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: I figured it out. 386 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 3: Obviously, I'm very happy with with where I am, but 387 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 3: I do feel like it took me a lot longer 388 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 3: to get here, in part because I never developed the habits, 389 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 3: the attitudes, the discipline. 390 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: They it's hard when you're smart, that's really I tell 391 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: this to my kids all the time, because it's easy 392 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: to skate a lot of the time when you're smart 393 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: and you don't learn how to work hard. Especially in 394 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: my middle stone. I tell them all the time that 395 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: I know lots of smart people, lots of really smart 396 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: people who didn't get anywhere in life because they didn't 397 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: work and they didn't learn how to work. And unless 398 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: you do that, it doesn't matter how smart you are. 399 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 2: It's exactly right. And skating was, you know something. I 400 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: took pride in same. 401 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: Same straight B student my whole life, with no effort. 402 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: I I remember failing all four quarters of biology in 403 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 3: high school. Wow, and the teacher smugly, you know, telling 404 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 3: me something along the lines of, I'll see you in 405 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 3: summer school. I knew that if you've got an ever 406 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 3: better on the regions, that they couldn't send. 407 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 2: You to summer school. 408 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: Oh, you're like, I got to And. 409 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 3: So I just crammed for two weeks and I got 410 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 3: like an eighty seven or something like that, and uh, 411 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 3: finding her the first day of school the next year, 412 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 3: and I was like, Hey, I was summer school. 413 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: So that was you. I just had a bad kicked 414 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 2: out of class all the time. I would get to 415 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: school all the time. 416 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 3: I just you know, I didn't take advantage of the 417 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 3: opportunities that were that were out there, and that I've 418 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 3: always felt guilty about that, in part because my parents 419 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 3: worked really hard to move us from Brooklyn to Long Island, 420 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 3: and so, you know, always felt a little guilty about that. 421 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: And here with your best tip for my listeners on 422 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: how they can improve their lives. 423 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 3: You know, this is one of these questions where you'rettempted 424 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 3: to kind of put on your Internet guru hat. 425 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: Do it? 426 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: Put on that hat? 427 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know. I was trying to think 428 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: about what I would say. 429 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 3: You know, there are two things that I always tell people, 430 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 3: So I'm going to cop out and I'm going to. 431 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 2: Give you two instead of one. 432 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: All right, let's go too. 433 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 3: One is, you know, I don't think people realize how 434 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 3: much downtime they have that could be more productive, and 435 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: that's really changed. So you know, your commute home, your 436 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 3: gym time, your shower time, throw on a podcast. Like 437 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 3: the new media landscape is awesome, and there's so much informative. 438 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 2: Stuff out there. 439 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 3: There are books that you can listen to, audiobooks. There's 440 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 3: so much of your downtime that you could be learning 441 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 3: something while doing the thing that you're doing, whether it's 442 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 3: like doing dishes or cleaning the house or you know, 443 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 3: going for a walk for the dog, Like, take advantage 444 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 3: double that time up and listen to something educational that 445 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 3: is pretty grul And then the other thing is is 446 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 3: go to the gym. You know, I've had a weird 447 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 3: relationship with the gym. I was an athlete in high 448 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 3: school and college, but after college there were periods of 449 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 3: years where I didn't do anything athletic, and you know, 450 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 3: especially during COVID and you know, with the book coming out. 451 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 3: There was like a four year period where I just 452 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 3: I was completely out of shape and I felt awful 453 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 3: all the time, and it was constantly stressed out, and 454 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 3: I forgot how much being in shape can help, just 455 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 3: you know, with your ability to deal with stress, with 456 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 3: how you feel, with your confidence level. You know, it's 457 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: like you have an opportunity to do something a few 458 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 3: days a week and you'll consistently see progress if you 459 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: do it. And it's just this like little reminder that 460 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 3: you know work is going to pay off no matter what, and. 461 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 2: You know it's a getaway for me. 462 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 3: It's been you know, a really good stress management tool, 463 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 3: and you know that has the bonus of keeping you healthy. 464 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard of the gym. I just never quite 465 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: get there. Maybe I will after this show. 466 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: It's easy to drive past. It's easy. It's easy to 467 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: miss it. You know, I saw you a long time. 468 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. He's Rafel mind Well. Check out 469 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 1: his book Criminal Injustice. Thank you so much, traf Well, 470 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: thank you really appreciate it.