1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: What do you do in life doesn't go according to plan? 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: That moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are gut wrench but all 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: answers one question. Now, what anybody ever said anything that 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: you didn't think of and you think, oh, that's that's 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: not a bad idea, or oh all the time? And 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: I love it, especially students I think they read the book. 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: They'll say to me, you know, you have a lot 16 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: of eggs in your first novel, and eggs are often 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: a sign and religion about rebirth. Did you intend that 18 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: to be a rebirth? And I'm like, you know, I 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: should say I absolutely meant that, but the truth is, 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, I really love that interpretation and I didn't 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: do it consciously, but I love that you saw that 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: and I might kind of steal that from you. And 23 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: I like eggs. I like eggs. That's why they were 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: in there. You know, I had a character who ate 25 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: hard boiled eggs, and it's because I like hard boiled eggs. 26 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: But you know, when they see that meeting, I'm like, 27 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: there could be something to that, And I love that idea. 28 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: For me, that means that I did my job, that 29 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: the work can kind of stand on its own and 30 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: have meaning on its own, even if it wasn't something 31 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: that I consciously meant. That voice you just heard is 32 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: New York Times best selling authors celesting I asked Celeste 33 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: to join this show because I loved her new book, 34 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: Our Missing Hearts. I loved it so much so that 35 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: I wanted to learn everything I possibly could about the 36 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: woman who wrote it. Now it sounds corny, but the 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: entire time I was reading the book, I actually felt 38 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: like I had a companion. Celeste is that talented of 39 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: a writer. In addition to Our Missing Hearts, she also 40 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: wrote the novels Everything I Never Told You and Little 41 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: Fires Everywhere, the letter of which was made into a 42 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: mini series starring Carrie Washington and Reese Witherspoon. I loved 43 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: catching up with Celeste. I loved learning about her process 44 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: and hearing about the now What moments that most inspired 45 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: her writing. Welcome Celeste ng to Now What. This is 46 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,519 Speaker 1: my podcast and I can't think of a better person 47 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: to to talk to. I'm I'm a huge fan well likewise, 48 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: so I'm so thrilled to get to talk with you. 49 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: I have to start off by saying I loved your 50 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: latest book, Are Missing Hearts. It was so powerful and 51 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: so heart wrenching and beautiful. How would you describe the 52 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: real idea of the book just for our listeners? I mean, 53 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: I think of it as a book is really fundamentally 54 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: about a mother and a son. A son who is 55 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: looking for a mother who's left the family some years before, 56 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: and he doesn't really understand where she's gone, why she's 57 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: left him. He resents, you know, for obvious reasons that 58 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: she hasn't been there, and he goes looking for her. 59 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: And when he finds her through a lot of help, 60 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 1: I think he starts to understand her and her life 61 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: and their whole relationship in a different way. And that 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: voyage from innocence to experience, you know how, and when 63 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: a child experiences that, you start writing it in two 64 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: thousand sixteen. It changes you then decide you don't know 65 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: how you want it to end. Talk me through a 66 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: little bit about that sort of process of kind of 67 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: coming into understanding where you wanted the story to go. Yeah, 68 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: I had an idea of where this story was going 69 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: to go, but I didn't know how to get it there. 70 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: It felt like something new to me because I realized 71 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: I wasn't writing a story that was strictly realistic. My 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: first two novels take place in the real world, in 73 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: our world, and I knew that this book was going 74 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: to exist in the world that wasn't exactly like our world. 75 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't you know, there aren't flying cars and robots, 76 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: but it was our world with sort of the volume 77 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: dialed up a little bit. All of the sort of 78 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: dangers and things that feel present in our world are 79 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: very present in this world. There's a lot of nationalism, 80 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot of racism um, and there's a lot 81 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: of hatred. And so when I started working on the book, 82 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to put it together. I didn't 83 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: know if it was a place that I wanted to go, 84 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: and I didn't know how to do that. And it 85 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: wasn't until the pandemic hit and I think we were 86 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: living in our real lives in this atmosphere fear. I'm 87 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: thinking back about how we were washing our groceries right, 88 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: and we were like wiping down the mail because we 89 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: just didn't know. It felt like there were threats everywhere. 90 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: I started to kind of viserally understand what it might 91 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: be like for these characters in this world that's also 92 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: full of fear and where there's a almost invisible assassin. 93 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: Can you explain what Packed is a metaphor for? Yeah, 94 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: Packed in the novel is a law or series of 95 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: laws that's been passed and the country has gone through 96 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: a hard time in the book, and to kind of 97 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: restore order, they've passed these new laws and it stands 98 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: for protecting American culture and traditions, and it kind of 99 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: requires everyone to sort of behave patriotically and it allows 100 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: people who are acting un American heavily in quotes to 101 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: be punished. And one of the things that entails is 102 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: often the children of people who are seen as acting 103 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: Unamerican are taken away. And this is often being applied 104 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: in the book to people of Chinese American descent and 105 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: Asian descent generally and in particular to anyone who dares 106 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: to speak up on their behalf. And so for me, 107 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: it was kind of an outward manifestation of a feeling 108 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: that is present today in America, the sense that people 109 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: who are East Asian who don't look like they're from here, 110 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: are somehow not American, that they belong somewhere else, and 111 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: that their loyalties lie somewhere else. It's something that I've 112 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: experienced in my own life, people assuming that about me. 113 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: And you talk about the idea of growing up and 114 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: having this feeling of being visibly different from others, Can 115 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: you explain how that affected you. Yeah, I'm realizing more 116 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: and more how it really has shaped a lot of 117 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: my experience and personality. I'm the child of immigrants from 118 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: Hong Kong, so my parents are Chinese American, and I 119 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: was born in the other. I'm from Ohio, but I 120 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: grew up in places where there weren't very many Asian Americans, 121 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: so there really were very few people who look like me, 122 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: and I realized that I stood out. I was lucky 123 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: that I think I had a really happy childhood and 124 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,239 Speaker 1: most people were very accepting but I was very aware 125 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: that nobody else looked like me. And every now and then, 126 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: out of the blue, I'd have an experience where somebody 127 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: would say the thing that I think most most people 128 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: of color and particularly Asians know where. They say, where 129 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: are you from? And I'd say, I'm you know, I'm 130 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: from Cleveland, and they say, know where you really from? 131 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: And there's that sense immediately that they've decided that you're 132 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: not from here, you don't belong here, and you need 133 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: to explain and justify why you're here. And that was 134 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: the feeling that I grew up with, and that's part 135 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: of the feeling I tried to bring into the book, 136 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: that sense that at any moment you might be seen 137 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: as a foreigner, even if you've been here for your 138 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: whole life. Any moment you might be asked for your 139 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: papers exactly, and and that's a reality for many people 140 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: in the world. It's so interesting as a white young woman, 141 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: or I'd like to think of myself as a young 142 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: woman who grew up I can't say I wasn't privileged. 143 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: I was. I was lucky, but you know, to have 144 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: that be such a part, it's almost like having an 145 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: entirely other existence, how unbalanced that is. Did your parents 146 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: help you? How did your parents deal with that? Yeah, 147 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: I recognize now how jarring and experience that must have 148 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: been for them in particular, and to try to help 149 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: children my sister and may navigate through this. I think 150 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: they were even more aware of it than we were. 151 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: And I think they were in particular aware of the 152 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: ways that there might be danger, because I think that's 153 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: one of the first things you think as a parent 154 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: is is my child going to be safe? And so 155 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: they would talk to us about it. They would remind 156 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: us mostly that if we were misbehaving, for example, other 157 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: people might assume that this is just how all Chinese 158 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: people behave right And likewise, if we did something good, 159 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: they'd say, oh great, you know now we're we're kind 160 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:35,719 Speaker 1: of setting a good example. So I think they were 161 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: very aware of it, not by choice but just sort 162 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: of advertecessity. They knew that we would be judged no 163 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: matter what we were doing, and you couldn't own doing 164 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: something good. I think it was both. I mean, if 165 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: we did something good, then in a way it was 166 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: like showing people that, you know, Chinese people could do 167 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: this too. Write Like if I got an a writing 168 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: my English essay. You know, it was like, see, we 169 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: can also do this, you know, but there was always 170 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: this sense of being judged from the outside, and I, 171 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: you know, I just think about how they had to 172 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: live their lives that way. I cannot even begin to 173 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: say that I can um, I can understand or I 174 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: can empathize. Though when I went to university it was 175 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: as if in order for me to do well, I 176 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: had to absolutely jump through hoops and do every extra credit, 177 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: every extra thing, because teachers did not want it to 178 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: appear that they were giving me special treatment. Yeah, I 179 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,199 Speaker 1: think that is a similar experience. There is a kinship 180 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: in those experiences because it's what people think of you 181 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: because of things on your outside, right, because they know 182 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: your name, or because they see your face or whatever. 183 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: It is, versus how you know yourself to be right. 184 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, it is that same kind 185 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: of gap of people assuming something about you from the 186 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: outside and then you trying to bridge that gap from 187 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,599 Speaker 1: where you are on the inside. And I think there's 188 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: that shapes a person, right, But you add to a 189 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: culturally and historically I mean that you that is I again, 190 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,839 Speaker 1: I'm not putting myself in that same type of an experience. 191 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: But I can appreciate that. Now you said your parents 192 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: taught you you have a son, correct, yes, right, do 193 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: you have similar conversations with him? I try to talk 194 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: about it with him a little bit more openly, and 195 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: that not to criticize my parents and all, but just 196 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: because I think that we're living in an era where 197 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: it's more okay to talk about these things, and I 198 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: live in a place where there's more diversity in these 199 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: conversations come up more naturally. But I try to both 200 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: let him know that who he is is great, and 201 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: that he has multiple parts of his identity that are 202 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: okay for him to hold on to. He can be 203 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: both Chinese American and American American whatever that means, right, 204 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: He can hold on to different aspects of his heritage. 205 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: And yet at the same time to let him know, 206 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: you know, the world isn't always kind to people that 207 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: they see as other, and that's something to be aware of, 208 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: but that's also something to take to heart and think 209 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: about when he's interacting with other people. You know, how 210 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: how can we make the world be just more welcoming 211 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: to everybody? What were some of the experiences you had 212 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,599 Speaker 1: when you were his age. That allows you to to 213 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: sort of see the differences, are see the similarities. I mean, 214 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: everything to me is is a now what moment? You know, 215 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: and I'm picturing you as a little girl, and yes, 216 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: you have your parents teaching you, but by the same token, 217 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: you're still a little girl that's dealing with something and 218 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: you have to ask yourself, now, what what what do 219 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: I What am I going to take from this? I mean, 220 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: I can think of a few there, you know, There's 221 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: there's one that we'd say is sort of more positive 222 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: and one that's negative. So the more negative one is 223 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: I certainly remember times that I would just be walking 224 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: on the street or something and people would shout slurs 225 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: at me. There was a particular time that I was 226 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: with my aunt and uncle, who were visiting from Hong 227 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: Kong at the time, and my older sister and we 228 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: were waiting for a bus and this man, who I 229 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: think was somewhat intoxicated, started yelling at us about, you know, 230 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: we should go back where we came from, and swearing 231 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: in us and things like that, and that was really 232 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: jarring because I was I think I was maybe ten 233 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: or eleven at the time, and I just remember thinking, 234 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: what do I do, as you say, now, what what 235 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: do I do about this? Right? What am I going 236 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: to take out of this? And what I took from 237 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: that was there was a woman, a white woman, who 238 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: was nearby and she kind of intervened and she started 239 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: talking to the guy and kind of got in between 240 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: him and us, and then after the bus arrived she 241 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: talked to us about it, and it just made me 242 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: remember that, Okay, somebody out there is also with you. 243 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: You're not just by yourself, right, and it's it made 244 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: me realize what a power there is in someone stepping 245 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: in and not just being a bystander. And so that 246 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: made me try to do that for the rest of 247 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: my life when I've seen that happening in other context, 248 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: to try and step in. So that was one. There 249 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: was also, I think more positive ones where times when 250 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: I would see myself reflected in other people's experiences. Mostly books. 251 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: My mom made a real point of trying to get 252 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: books that were written by other Asian, in particular East Asians. 253 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: This is in like the early eighties and so there 254 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: wasn't as much out there as there is now. There's 255 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: a little bit more now, but she would get books 256 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: that were, you know, about living in a Japanese internment camp, 257 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: where she would get books that were about, you know, 258 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: being a new immigrant from China to the US. And 259 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: even though those weren't my experience, it was kind of 260 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: powerful to get the sense, oh, that's a book about 261 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: someone who vaguely resembles me. She's also Asian, and that 262 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: means maybe maybe my stories are also going to be 263 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: worth telling. When I get to read books by other people, 264 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: I get to witness their experience, but in a way 265 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: I also kind of get to be seen. I get 266 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: to be seen as like, okay, they're Asian stories broadly speaking, 267 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: are worth telling. And with the woman at the bus stop, 268 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: I think she was there to witness that. She was 269 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: there to kind of say by her also reacting the situation, 270 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: I see this and it's not okay, and I see 271 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: what's happening to you, And there's something very powerful about that. 272 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: Even though she couldn't stop it, that wasn't her position, 273 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, she wasn't responsible for what was happening, but 274 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: the fact that she was there to witness it with us, 275 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: I think was really powerful and it's important that you 276 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: do point that out. That she may or may not 277 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: have been able to affect change, but in that moment, 278 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: for these young individual girls, she was able to at 279 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: least say I see you, and I'd like to understand 280 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: it more absolutely, and that was really powerful. I think 281 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: about that moment quite a lot, and I think about 282 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: her in particular, and even now as an adult, when 283 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: I'm faced with a situation where I don't know what 284 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: to do, I try to look for ways that I 285 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: can help because I think about how powerful it was 286 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: that she stepped in, and I think about how awful 287 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: it would have held had she not stepped in. Did 288 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: you always know you wanted to be a writer? I 289 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: always did want to be a writer. I didn't know 290 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: that it was really a job than anybody could do. 291 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: I didn't know anybody who had a creative job like that, 292 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: and so for a long time I thought that I 293 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: was going to have to have, you know, like a 294 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: real job, and then writing would be the thing that 295 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: I did on the side. And I thought that, really 296 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: until I graduated from college and I got a real 297 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: job from Harvard by the way from and I got 298 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: a job in publishing, and I think I started in September, 299 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: and I realized in October. This just wasn't the right 300 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: fit for me. And I was really lucky that I 301 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: had a teacher who said to me, you know you 302 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: always talk about writing on the side, why don't you 303 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: try putting it in the front. And it was really 304 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: because of her that I started to think, well, maybe 305 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: I should try. Maybe I should try writing and see 306 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: where it takes me. Did you quit that job or 307 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: I did. I stayed at it for a year because 308 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: I needed to pay rent, and you know, I had 309 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: loans and things I had to pay off. But I 310 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: stayed at the job and I started working on my 311 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: writing and I got together a portfolio so that I 312 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: could apply to grad school. And really what I was 313 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: doing was I was just starting to learn how to 314 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: be a writer. I was reading and I was writing, 315 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: and I was to sing. Talk about a now what moment? 316 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you quit your job and then you all 317 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: of a sudden, how did that feel? It was definitely 318 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: a now what moment because I got to the point 319 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: where I was like, I have to quit this job 320 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: because I need to focus on this other thing. And 321 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: it was very scary. I did some math and I 322 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: was like, here's how much money I have saved. Here's 323 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: how long I can give it to try and make 324 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: this writing thing work. And it was the first of 325 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: several now what moments like that. I think for most writers, 326 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: your life is a series of those now what moments 327 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: until hopefully you managed to get a break. But it 328 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: was a moment of I think, really asking myself, if 329 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: I stay here in this secure place, I'm going to 330 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: be unhappy. But if I leave, maybe I will be happier. 331 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: Can I make it work? Can I? You know? And 332 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: that was a position privilege. I was lucky, I had 333 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: a partner. I was lucky that I had been able 334 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: to save money. But it was a moment of trying 335 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: to reaffirm for myself it's worth it. Did you have 336 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: a structure to writing? It was easier when I was 337 00:16:57,520 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: in grad school. I was lucky enough to get a 338 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: fellows hip and so I had a little bit of 339 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: a stipend. And you know, your job when you were 340 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: in this program was to sit and right and so 341 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: I would try and write. I would go and sit 342 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: with friends and we were all on the writing program, 343 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: and we'd sit there and we'd we'd work for a 344 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: while and then we'd talk and then we'd get back 345 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: to work, but it was easier when someone was looking 346 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: over my shoulder. When I left grad school, I definitely 347 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: had another now what moment where I was like, Okay, 348 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: how do I do this without an assignment? How do 349 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: I do this with that? You know, I don't need 350 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: to turn anything in. If I don't write anything, no 351 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: one will care. And then I realized, actually, no one 352 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: will care but me, And so that was really I 353 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: had to find the motivation in myself to get myself 354 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: to the desk and sit there and look at the page. 355 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: I tried to make it into a routine, basically, and 356 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: it got easier when my son was born, because when 357 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: he was napping it was my time to write, or 358 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: when I dropped him off at daycare, I knew exactly 359 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: when I had to pick him up, and I would go, okay, 360 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: I have four hours. I'm paying for those four hours. 361 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: I've got to make them count. I can only imagine. 362 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,640 Speaker 1: But the idea of structure and doing it on your 363 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: own is it's a huge lesson. I mean that is 364 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: a huge lesson because a lot of it is really 365 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: how you you know, how you approach your vocation and 366 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: calling it that and not feeling guilty for it. So 367 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: you're writing when you can. Mostly people sleep when their 368 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: kids sleep, but now you're writing when you're kids sleeping. Um, 369 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: what was your first project? Like, I had been writing 370 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: short stories in grad school. So I published a few 371 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: short stories. You know, you send them to a magazine 372 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: and you hope that an editor likes them, and I've 373 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: been lucky enough to find a few homes for them, 374 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: and I got an agent on the strength of that. 375 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: It was an agent who had read some of my work, 376 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: liked it, got in touch, and she seemed to get 377 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: what I was doing, and she was extremely patient because 378 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: she signed with me. And then I think it was 379 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: about five years before I had actually finished a book, 380 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 1: and it was a story that I had started working 381 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: on in grad school, and it just took me a 382 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: long time to figure out how to write a book, 383 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: how to tell the story, and then how to kind 384 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: of polish it so that it it said what I 385 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: wanted in the ways that I wanted. There are so 386 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: many times that I think people don't really focus on 387 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: the rejections, but there are usually more rejections than there 388 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: are acceptance. In that five year period, were their rejections 389 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: that stood out to you where you questioned, oh, there were, 390 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: I mean, there were many, and it is, you know, 391 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: I don't think it's even something that people should be 392 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: ashamed of. But I say that even though I used 393 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: to call the spreadsheet where I marked down my rejections, 394 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: I used to call it my spreadsheet of shame, because 395 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: we feel like we should succeed right away. Um. But 396 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: you know, I would list all the places i'd sent 397 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: a story, and then I would list down when they 398 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: sent it back, you know, And then I would send 399 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: it out to the next one, and I'd list when 400 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: it got rejected from that. But that's I think part 401 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: of the process. I was learning how to write a story. 402 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: I was learning which magazines were fit for just what 403 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: I write. Not every magazine is right for every story. 404 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: And so I did have a bunch of rejections in there. 405 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: And in particular, I remember there was one story that 406 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: I kept sending out and sending out and it kept 407 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: coming back and I really believed in it. And in 408 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: the middle of it, I had my son, I dealt 409 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: with some postpartum depression, and I was like, maybe this 410 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: is just never going to work out. Maybe I should 411 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: just give up. And then a magazine took that story 412 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: and then they submitted it for an award, and then 413 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: it won that award, and it was this sort of 414 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: amazing boost at a moment where I had really been 415 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: questioning myself to get that kind of affirmation from, you know, 416 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: from this magazine and then the award. Yes, it's worth doing. God, 417 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: I hope you framed that list. I hope you have 418 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: that list, and I hope you frame it showed everybody. 419 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: I have it saved in my computer. Well it is. 420 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: It's a long bar. I color coded it so that 421 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: I could see some rejections are red, right, and then 422 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: ones that are out or yellow, so you can just 423 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: kind of see visually without having to look at the 424 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: no no no column. You can just see it. And 425 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: then there's this one green line at the bottom and sometimes, 426 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: I mean it only takes one it's always going to 427 00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: be read until it gets to that green. You mentioned postpartum. 428 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: I too had postpartum rather severely. Um I wrote a 429 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: book about it, Celesting, and you well, I remember that, 430 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: and I was so grateful for that. Actually, I was 431 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: so grateful that you talked about it, because I felt 432 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 1: like it was this thing that no one talked about 433 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: that everyone was somehow embarrassed about having, ashamed of having, 434 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: and that no one had really you know, they mentioned 435 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: just like, oh, this might happen, but it kind of doesn't. 436 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: And I was sort of shocked to find that it 437 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: was happening to me and that it actually happened to 438 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: lots of people. And so I was really, honestly so 439 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: grateful to you for talking about that with your platform, 440 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: because it would be so easy to just pretend like 441 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: it hadn't happened. Well, I appreciate you saying that. Really. 442 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: I had a person say to me, an agent at 443 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: the time, and he said, you have to tell this story. 444 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: And my first reaction was, who wants another celebrity on 445 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: some soapbox complaining about how terrible it is, you know, 446 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: to have this baby, and you know, and I could 447 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: afford IVF and you know, so there was just just 448 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: a sort of self indulgence that I was afraid of. 449 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,959 Speaker 1: And then once I started asking around and realizing that 450 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: I wasn't the only one that had experienced that, it 451 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: became a journey to tell other people's stories or give 452 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: other people the context to feel their stories exactly. You 453 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: do that beautifully well. And I love that way of 454 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: looking at it too, because I've been in a position 455 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: is you know, Chinese American writer and Asian American writer 456 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: that's had some success. I don't want to speak for 457 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: other people, but I want to give more context and 458 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: more space and sort of like you know, elbow out 459 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more room for other stories to be heard, 460 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: because they can only be told by the people that 461 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: experience them. But it is so affirming to to see 462 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: someone else, and especially somebody who you know is incredibly 463 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: well known, talk about something that they experienced that you 464 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: also as. There's this sense of shared humanity that I 465 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: think that we don't often get a lot of times, 466 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: and certainly around topics that are difficult, like issues around 467 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: pregnancy or postpartment depression. So it yeah, it sincerely mean. 468 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: It did mean a lot to me to see that 469 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: you were talking about it, and I didn't remember anybody 470 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: else really doing that. I think it really was one 471 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: of the first and people were shocked, you know that 472 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: I that I was, And it was interesting because they 473 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: talked about how brave and what's so interesting. I couldn't 474 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: quite get my mind wrapped around the concept of that 475 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: being a brave move. It felt necessary. That's similar to 476 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: the way that I look at it, where I hope 477 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: that what I write resonates with other people, but I 478 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: do write it first and foremost because it matters to me. 479 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: You know. I hope that it's going to speak to 480 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: other people, but I couldn't write it if it didn't 481 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: also feel important. I don't think people really understand the 482 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: sort of trajectory between when a book is written and 483 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: then if and when it gets adapted to a screen. 484 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: I would love to hear a little bit more about 485 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: what that is like and what you grapple with when 486 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: it's presented to you. It was such an interesting experience 487 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: to have Little Fires Everywhere made into a mini series 488 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: and I had a really wonderful experience with it, actually, 489 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: and I think there were two reasons. One was that 490 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: I went into it kind of thinking, I want this 491 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: project to have space to be something different, the freedom 492 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 1: to evolve into something else, because it should be different. 493 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: It's an adaptation, it's on TV that's a different language 494 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: than writing on the page, and thinking about it that 495 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: way kind of made it easier for me to let 496 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: go and be like, let it grow into what it's 497 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: going to be. But the second reason that I think 498 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: I had a great experience is that I got to 499 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: work with the great people. I was really lucky um Reese, Witherspoon, 500 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: and Carry Washington and their production teams. I think started 501 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: the project because they love the book, and so they 502 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: were always kind of holding the respect for the book 503 00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: in their hearts. Even when they were changing things. They 504 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: were doing it in ways to explore the same issues, 505 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: but just in a different angle. And I think that's 506 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: really made it successful. And I feel very fortunate you've 507 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,479 Speaker 1: gotten to work with them. But it was it was fun, 508 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: and it was I'm not lying when I say that. 509 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: When I watched it, I watched it, you know, in 510 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: early like everyone else did. UM. I sat on the 511 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: couch with my husband and there were parts where I 512 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: kind of gassed and I like leaned in and I 513 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: was like, what's going to happen? And he looked at 514 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: me and said, do you not know? Like you wrote 515 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: this book? But I was so caught up in what 516 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: was going on the screen that I was like, yeah, 517 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: but I but it feels new. And that for me 518 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: was such a pleasurable experience to encounter the story differently. Well, 519 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: that is a very arrived way of looking at something, 520 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: and I'm in awe of that, and I'm going to 521 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 1: take that to heart, just because you know, when you 522 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you have this book, you call 523 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: it your book, and now people have opinions on it. Yeah, 524 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: did they feel personal? They always feel personal, But I 525 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: try to remind myself that they're not. And I think 526 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: it's a good thing when people read your book and 527 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: they have reactions to it, and that's how it should work. 528 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: And Patrick, who's a writer that I just adore, she 529 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,719 Speaker 1: has a saying that the meaning of a book is 530 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: not made between the writer and the reader. It's made 531 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: between the book and the reader. And I really like 532 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: that idea because in a way, it means that the 533 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: reader is going to bring their own experiences to whatever 534 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: they read or you know, whatever they view, you know, 535 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: whatever the art form is. They're going to interpret it 536 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: the way that they see it because they've had certain 537 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: experiences and it might not be exactly what I had 538 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: in mind, but it doesn't mean that it's invalid. And 539 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: if they take meeting from it, to me, that's great, right. 540 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: In a sense, I have to get out of the 541 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: way as the author and let them make a relationship 542 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: with the work whatever it is. They're going to feel 543 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: that they know me. They might make judgments about me, 544 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: but that's okay. They're allowed to do that. I have 545 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: to kind of remove myself from that equation and let 546 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: them engage with the work. So that's how I try 547 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: to look at it. Anyway, That's very how it's hard. 548 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: I think that's what real art is. I mean, art 549 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: allows interpretation and allows individual experience. Um, this show, Now, 550 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: what is about pivotal moments? And I think we women 551 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: humans have had multiples in their lives, and I just 552 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: want to wrap up with just talking to you just 553 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: about some of those. Now, what pivotal moments where you 554 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: you were stopped in your tracks and you had to 555 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: make a decision. Can you talk about any of those 556 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: in your life? Sure? Well, one that comes to mind 557 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: first and foremost is becoming a parent. I thought before 558 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: I became a parent that I understood who my parents 559 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: were and what it would be like. Probably many parents 560 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: think that, And then once I actually was holding my baby, 561 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: I had this sudden, terrifying realization that I did not 562 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: know what I was doing. You know, I had this 563 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: moment of going, oh God, I'm responsible for this tiny 564 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: little creature. How do I do right by him? And 565 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: it made me see both sort of my life going 566 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: forward and then my whole relationship with my parents in 567 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: very a very different light. I was realizing how much 568 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: they had done for me and for my sister and 569 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: kind of appreciating that. And I was at the same 570 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 1: time sort of looking forward towards, you know, the future 571 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: I was going to have with my son and thinking, Okay, 572 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: what do I want to try to give you right 573 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: if in the time that I've got with you, because 574 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: it seems like it goes so fast it does, what 575 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: do I What do I want to try and pass 576 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: on to you? Right like? What are the most important 577 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: things that you need to have before you go out 578 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: into the world? And that, I mean, that's a transformation 579 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: that's still ongoing. It's it's sort of a very long, 580 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: extended now what moment where I'm constantly trying to figure out, 581 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, what are the most important things? I think 582 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: that's the frame that I'm living my life in now. 583 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: And you know it starts when their babies. It's it's 584 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: ongoing and it's exhausting. Because it ever, let's up, and 585 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: then this unbelievable moment happens when they start to teach 586 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 1: you yes, And that's That's been one of the joys 587 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: of parenthood, I have to say, is seeing like you 588 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: say these things and you don't know if it's really 589 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: sinking in. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm listening. And 590 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: then when you actually see them do something that kind 591 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: of shows that they've taken in the values that you're 592 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: trying to teach. It's a really great moment. You know. 593 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: I hope I'm giving that moment to my mom now 594 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: as I get older. But it's nice to see it 595 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: in my son where I'm like, oh, that was a 596 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: kind thing you did, and he's like, oh yeah, it 597 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: just seemed like the right thing to do. I'm like, yes, 598 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: did it. That's it for us today. If you enjoyed 599 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: my conversation with Celesting, be sure to pick up a 600 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: copy of our new book, How Our Missing Hearts. You'll 601 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: be happy you did. Now. What is produced by the 602 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: wonderful Julia Weaver with help from Darby Masters. Our executive 603 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Bahed 604 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: Fraser and Christian Bowman. A special thanks to nicky Etre 605 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: and Will Pearson. If you liked this episode, please subscribe 606 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: to the show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 607 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your shows.