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Speaker 1: Bodybus, but Joseph's gotten more. I was never a big

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Speaker 1: fan of horror movies. There are certain movies out there

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Speaker 1: that I will watch, you know, the used term remote drop.

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Speaker 1: I guess that are in the horror genre. But you know,

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Speaker 1: being a death investigator, you see things relative to how

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Speaker 1: the dead or portrayed, whether it be true crime or

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Speaker 1: in horror horror movies. Some things they get right. Most

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Speaker 1: of the time they get wrong. But aren't we so

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Speaker 1: influenced as a society by terms things that we think

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Speaker 1: we are familiar with, and it translates into the general

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Speaker 1: public even you know, when it comes to someone like

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Speaker 1: me that talks about death day in and day app

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Speaker 1: there is no one size fits all when it comes

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Speaker 1: to terms. They're varied. They can be varied regionally, and

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Speaker 1: they can be varied by country or worldwide. But today

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk a little bit about riger mortis.

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Speaker 1: Some people call it rigor mortis, but we do know this.

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Speaker 1: It sets in only after you're dead. And is it

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Speaker 1: possible for this change, this post mortem change in the

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Speaker 1: human body to point towards a perpetrator. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: and this is body backs. I suppose I could start

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Speaker 1: this conversation off Dave by saying potato, potato, tomato, tomato,

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Speaker 1: But I'm going to shy away from that and just say, Wow,

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Speaker 1: I never really give much consideration to the way I

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Speaker 1: pronounce things, But I guess I kind of got my

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Speaker 1: ear slapped back a little bit this week from an

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Speaker 1: appearance that I made with using the term riger mortis

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Speaker 1: as opposed to rigor mortis on a particular show that

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Speaker 1: I was on. And it's funny people just assumed that

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Speaker 1: I guess the folks at Fox or Universal or Paramount

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Speaker 1: or any of these they actually dictate how I'm supposed

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Speaker 1: to say things as it applies.

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Speaker 2: To investigation of everything is a conspiracy, Joe. You know this, okay, Joe.

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Speaker 2: On this episode of Body Bags, Giselle Tappia Salazar's body

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Speaker 2: is discovered hanging from a rope near the boat docked

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Speaker 2: in the League City Marina that she and her boyfriend

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Speaker 2: lived in on May thirty first. At first glance, it

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Speaker 2: was thought that she committed suicide, but even to the

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Speaker 2: untrained eye of a neighbor, something stuck out to him.

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Speaker 2: From the very beginning. Gisell Tapia Salah is our's arm

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Speaker 2: going up and stiffened going up, and the term rigor

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Speaker 2: mortis has been thrown around, has been bandied about that

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Speaker 2: rigor mortis had set in, Roger mortis had set in.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know if that's the proper way to

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Speaker 2: say it, Joe, it is. I would never go online

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Speaker 2: and and critique you for that, because I mean, I

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Speaker 2: see these things all the time. I like, so what

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Speaker 2: because I've heard it pronounced differently. Now I'm going to

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Speaker 2: call you out. I don't think so. I'm cool with

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Speaker 2: you saying whatever you want, and I'm going to assume

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Speaker 2: you're saying it the way you believe is right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird thing. And

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Speaker 1: you know, the thing about it is is that when

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Speaker 1: we talk about this stiffening after death, you'll hear other

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Speaker 1: terms like post mortem rigidity is and that's that's very accurate. No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's not. It's just another it's another way to

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Speaker 1: explain this action that takes place in the wake of death.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of that.

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Speaker 2: That's actually a huge part of today's story.

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Speaker 1: Is it truly is? And you know, you think about

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Speaker 1: the rigidity, which I love that term because you know,

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Speaker 1: people can understand rigidity in uh in kind of everyday parlance.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you say, well, this person has a

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Speaker 1: certain type of rigidity to them with the way they

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Speaker 1: live their life or the way they interact with people,

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Speaker 1: A stiffness, not wanting to move. And isn't that what

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Speaker 1: it's all about when it comes to the status of

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Speaker 1: you know, roger mortis in the body? What does it?

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Speaker 1: What does it tell us? Well as far as how

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Speaker 1: someone is positioned tells us everything.

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Speaker 2: Apparently in today's case on body bags, Giselle Tappia Salazar,

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Speaker 2: only thirty years old and a mother of four is

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Speaker 2: found hanging by a rope from a boat dock where

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Speaker 2: she lives with her boyfriend. Boat is docked at this

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Speaker 2: marina in League City, Texas. Her body is hanging friends,

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Speaker 2: her body is hanging from a rope off the boat dock.

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Speaker 2: At first it was thought she was a suicide. But

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Speaker 2: rigor mortis, rigor mortis post what do you call it?

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Speaker 2: Post what? Rigidity?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, post mortem rigidity?

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I don't want to be flipping here, no,

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Speaker 2: but the bottom line it was the position of her

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Speaker 2: arm being stiff by people who don't know what they're

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Speaker 2: talking about. Just somebody saw her body. It was actually

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Speaker 2: a neighbor in the marina saw her body hanging from

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Speaker 2: a rope and immediately went Her body was already really

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Speaker 2: stiff and her arm was in a position that was

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Speaker 2: not natural. Yes, is from just a neighbor, Joe, not

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Speaker 2: an expert.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: The person walks out and sees her body and immediately

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Speaker 1: you know, I talk about this periodically, and if you

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Speaker 1: don't follow me on Instagram, most of the stuff I

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Speaker 1: put up on Instagram is either well, recently a lot

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Speaker 1: of crime con stuff, but it's generally me and my

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Speaker 1: beautiful bride Kim, out on the river near our home

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Speaker 1: taking pictures of, arguably, as far as I'm concerned, one

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Speaker 1: of the most beautiful locations in the United States. On

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Speaker 1: our old boat, and we have a mooring area, we

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Speaker 1: have a dock in this old, kind of broken down

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Speaker 1: marina that is very, very dear to me. It's not

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Speaker 1: fancy schmancy or anything. It's just a place where we

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Speaker 1: keep our boat and live our life. It's our happy place.

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Speaker 1: And I got to thinking about this day and.

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Speaker 2: Am just so people know when Joe's on his way

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Speaker 2: to the river. Okay, when he is on his way,

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Speaker 2: when he and Kim have a plan, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 2: what else is happening in the world. He can do

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Speaker 2: twenty appearances on network television back to back to back,

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Speaker 2: and we could have some of these schedule. But both

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Speaker 2: of us are kind of tired or whatever, and I'll

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Speaker 2: get that call in and be like, he's already on

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Speaker 2: his way. He's in the car and it's tunnel vision

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Speaker 2: to get to the happy place. It's the most amazing

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Speaker 2: And you know what, everyone should have it. Everybody should

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Speaker 2: have that one place that is very special to you

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Speaker 2: that you can go back to. And it needs to

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Speaker 2: be especially if you're a couple. It needs to be

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Speaker 2: a place that the two of you share and you

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Speaker 2: guys can go there. I've seen I have talked to

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Speaker 2: you the day after you spent four hours on the

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Speaker 2: river and you're like a new man. You've got your

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Speaker 2: recharging boom, and so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't need any kind of medication. If I

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Speaker 1: can just get to the river, it's my it's it's

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Speaker 1: that's my medication, and just sit out there and just

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Speaker 1: cruise long or float. And with that said, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: glad we're covering this case because I've been around Marina's

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Speaker 1: my entire life. I don't come from, you know, people

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Speaker 1: that are all high faluting as they say, that have

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Speaker 1: big yachts. I'm talking about just old boats, knock around boats,

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Speaker 1: which is what we have. But I thought about the

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Speaker 1: structure of the Marina Wearian. If if I were there

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Speaker 1: and in the way ours is configured, would I notice

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Speaker 1: would I notice a woman hanging and partially in the water,

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Speaker 1: which is super bizarre to me, and her arm And

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Speaker 1: the only thing I can really imagine here is that

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Speaker 1: her arm is in a position so that if you'll

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Speaker 1: just think of maybe the Statue of Liberty with the

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Speaker 1: torch extended up in the air perhaps. But you know, Dave,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that that has been stated about

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Speaker 1: this case is that I think the witness said that

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Speaker 1: her arm was twisted in an unusual fashion or manner.

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Speaker 1: And I you know, when you're an investigator and you

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Speaker 1: go out to the scene and you begin to interview

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Speaker 1: people that are witnesses or what we refer to in

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Speaker 1: death investigation as finders, those individuals that actually find the body,

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Speaker 1: which is a unique category and of itself. We haven't

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Speaker 1: really talked about that, because those are first impressions. How

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Speaker 1: are they interpreting this? It's kind of like riger and

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Speaker 1: rigor how are you interpreting this? What are you seeing?

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Speaker 1: And how does this play in to what happened in

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Speaker 1: not the post mortem state, but in the end to

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Speaker 1: mortem state. That she would be in such kind of

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Speaker 1: a twisted position in her arm extended upwards. Why in

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Speaker 1: this manner, why would her arm be above her head?

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Speaker 1: And I think the answer does actually rest in the

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Speaker 1: idea of postmartum changes here. You know, when you think

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Speaker 1: about post warum rigidity, there's the dead cannot extend their arms.

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Speaker 1: They can't and that's a rather obvious statement, But it

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Speaker 1: has to be something that had occurred prior to this

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Speaker 1: event in order to get her arm up in the air,

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Speaker 1: unless it was bound that way in some manner specifically.

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't doesn't sound like that in this case. Dave.

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Speaker 2: Look, you mentioned the finder. Christian Allen is the fellow's name,

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Speaker 2: and he also lives there at the marina. And I've

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Speaker 2: been looking at pictures of the marina to look at

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Speaker 2: the layout and to see how what dock was she hanging,

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Speaker 2: and to be honest, with you. I feel dirty doing

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Speaker 2: that because all I can be honest with you think

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Speaker 2: about is her four children who are seeing their mother

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Speaker 2: plastered all over the news, and they don't believe she

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Speaker 2: killed herself. Her sister doesn't believe she killed herself. And

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Speaker 2: you have this guy that found her saying I don't

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Speaker 2: think that didn't look natural. The guy that found her

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Speaker 2: body just didn't look natural, even though even though he

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Speaker 2: may never have seen a dead body in his life,

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Speaker 2: most of us know if you were to know, I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna say I'm gonna take that back, because to use

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Speaker 2: a generality to say most of us know anything is

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Speaker 2: ridiculous because most of us don't know. We know what

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Speaker 2: we've heard, we know what we've been told, or we

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Speaker 2: know what we saw on TV or in movies. Separating

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Speaker 2: all of that, I guess my thought was, if you

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Speaker 2: were to hang yourself, that the rope is around your neck,

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Speaker 2: you fall off a chair, or you slowly allow it

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Speaker 2: to strangle you, however it works, but that in that

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Speaker 2: process of dying, you would be unless your next snapped immediately,

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Speaker 2: which make you dead quickly or strangling, but your arms

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Speaker 2: would be down by your side because you would be

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Speaker 2: in the throes of death and they would be limp

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Speaker 2: and that's how you would die.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's the phistical world that we live in. Every

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Speaker 1: so much of the stuff is dictated by the environment

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Speaker 1: which we're in. Post mortem changes and all this sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. And it look, the biggest thing I think

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Speaker 1: is probably gravity, right, you know. I mean that sounds

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Speaker 1: rather obvious, but truly it is because without without that

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Speaker 1: animation that we have in the life, where you know,

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Speaker 1: we control the movements at our shoulder, at our elbow,

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Speaker 1: our wrist, our fingers, all those sorts of things. Absent

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Speaker 1: that you know, our brain firing, you know, even at

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Speaker 1: an autonomic you know level, we have to think about, well,

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Speaker 1: what could have brought this about? But I can tell

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Speaker 1: you this. I think that the nature of this case,

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Speaker 1: which by the way, I believe is the only case

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Speaker 1: that I have ever heard of like this, where I

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Speaker 1: have a body that is suspended at a marina and

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Speaker 1: it appears to be partially out of the water but

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Speaker 1: yet partially submerged, might be the most bizarre hanging case

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Speaker 1: that I've ever heard of. Dave, I've given some consideration

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Speaker 1: to what it would be like to be on a

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Speaker 1: boat in living there full time. Many people might think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, they have their boat, it's it's anchored off somewhere,

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Speaker 1: you know. And yeah, that's all cool and romantic if

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Speaker 1: you have that kind of boat. But if you're living

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Speaker 1: on a smaller vessel, you have to have access to water, electricity,

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Speaker 1: bathroom facilities, those sorts of things. And they say that

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Speaker 1: this young lady was living at the boat, but yet

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Speaker 1: she's got four kids. And I do know that there's

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Speaker 1: tight quarters on a boat. So how how do you

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Speaker 1: live on a boat? You have a boyfriend and you've

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Speaker 1: got four kids. Am I missing something here?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: And you know, way, Joe, regardless of the situation, the circumstances,

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Speaker 2: nobody deserves to die like at the hand of another

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Speaker 2: right in this case, And I want to be very

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Speaker 2: careful because you and I both have learned over the

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Speaker 2: years with Nancy Grace. She is all about the victim.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, for those of you who don't

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Speaker 2: know or what she is really true to that, yeah

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Speaker 2: she is. She doesn't mess around with that. The victim

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Speaker 2: is the victim. It's a sacred thing to her, it is.

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Speaker 2: And in this particular case, what I did is I've

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Speaker 2: been looking at the family dynamic because you have four children.

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Speaker 2: She's thirty years old, so the children are going to

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Speaker 2: be young now. Just to get an idea here of

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Speaker 2: our victim, Giselle Tapia Salazar was thirty years old, four children.

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Speaker 2: She was the baby in a family of six children,

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Speaker 2: so she's got five older brothers and sisters, and she

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Speaker 2: was that child everybody looked at in the family and

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Speaker 2: really just looked at us. That's you know, everybody family

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Speaker 2: has a star, and she was the star of the family.

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Speaker 2: And I'm reading what was written about this, and you're right,

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Speaker 2: being on a boat in a boat slip, not a dynamic.

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Speaker 2: Not a great place to have four children on a boat.

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Speaker 2: You don't have amenities like a bathroom right there on

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Speaker 2: the boat or what have you, so it's inconvenient living.

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Speaker 2: I'm not exactly sure where her children were at the

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Speaker 2: time this all took place, and you know what happens

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Speaker 2: when we assume. But this is what her sister wrote

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Speaker 2: on the GoFundMe page. Yeah, he says, Giselle was tragically

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Speaker 2: taken from us. She was a single mother of four,

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Speaker 2: leaving behind three little ones for my mother and I

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Speaker 2: to raise, and so I don't know exactly what's there.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if one passed or if one is

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Speaker 2: being raised by somebody else, I don't know. But if

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Speaker 2: she had four children and she's leaving behind three.

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Speaker 1: But then.

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Speaker 2: I want to be clear that we're not saying anything.

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Speaker 2: I'm just sharing what was written about her. We're not

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Speaker 2: saying that she was the victim of domestic violence. But

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Speaker 2: in the GoFundMe that's been set up to help pay

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Speaker 2: for her funeral expenses and care for the children and

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Speaker 2: what have you, Gizelle was always Jazelle, always looked for

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Speaker 2: the best in people, even when they didn't deserve her kindness.

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Speaker 2: This ultimately led to her being a victim of domestic

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Speaker 2: violence up until she was taken from us in the

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Speaker 2: worst way possible.

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Speaker 1: Wow, boys, talk about insightful and listen. As an investigator,

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Speaker 1: we have to consider every every possible avenue for information.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're seeking it out. Sometimes you literally do

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Speaker 1: a word picture here. You feel like you're the rat

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Speaker 1: in a maze. Oh wow, and you're searching, you know.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes I don't want to carry this analogy too far,

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Speaker 1: but literally you do run into dead ends, right, But

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Speaker 1: you still have to go down those those paths and

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Speaker 1: explore this thing. And just just so folks understand this

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Speaker 1: from my perspective as a death investigator, it is we

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Speaker 1: do work accidental hangings. They do happen. I've worked them,

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Speaker 1: and they're they're horrible things.

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Speaker 2: And a friend of mine day by accidental hanging.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's something that really happens. I've caught

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Speaker 1: them with deer hunters before that are up in stands

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Speaker 1: and they get twisted up in cords.

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Speaker 2: A very quick short joke, Joe, you know the area

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Speaker 2: Joe and I live very close to one another. You

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Speaker 2: know the area of Wellington, not far from where you

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Speaker 2: are there. It was a friend of mine, an old,

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Speaker 2: an old radio character guy, and he was cutting trees.

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Speaker 2: He was up like cutting and trimming them back on

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Speaker 2: his property, something I would never do. Anyway, he lost it.

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Speaker 2: He's up there in ropes and everything else, got a

294
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Speaker 2: chainsaw and what have you, and a tree that he

295
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Speaker 2: was cutting above gave way and slung him inside a

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Speaker 2: way that when he hung, he actually hung himself. He

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Speaker 2: got wrapped around his neck and popped. Yeah, And there

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Speaker 2: was a question briefly suicide or murder.

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Speaker 1: Right, yep. And that's that's the way you have to

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Speaker 1: look at it and listen. In my experience, it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be every death investigator's experience, but in my experience, uh,

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Speaker 1: the top two ways that people take their lives in

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Speaker 1: America is either going to be self inflicted, gunshot wound,

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Speaker 1: or hanging. Hanging is number two for me. It's not pills,

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Speaker 1: it's not cutting, it's not carbon monoxide. It's generally hanging.

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Speaker 1: And the reason is, just like weapons are convenient and

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Speaker 1: perceived to be quick, people have access to any manner

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Speaker 1: of ligatures for lack of a better term, that that

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Speaker 1: a news could be made out of. So when I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at a case like this, I you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: always going to look at it from a homicide perspective.

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Speaker 1: What's the plausibility that this could be a homicide by hanging?

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Speaker 1: Because those do happen, they're rare, they don't happen with

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Speaker 1: great frequency. But what does happen is going to be suicide.

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Speaker 1: So when I'm checking off these boxes as an investigator,

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Speaker 1: I have to explore you know, I was talking about

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Speaker 1: all those little blond alleys we have to go down,

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Speaker 1: we get to the family and her intimate circle. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be asking very pointed questions to the family,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes those questions are very painful, but you have

321
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Speaker 1: to go down that road. You want to know what

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Speaker 1: the victim's status was mentally, Had they ever experienced suicidal

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Speaker 1: depression or ideation? As a psychiatrists like to say. Also,

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Speaker 1: they'll plug in this little this little caveat to it

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Speaker 1: as well. It's not just ideation, but it's also listen

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Speaker 1: to this term vocalization, which means that they think about

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Speaker 1: it and they say it, has that at recurred? Have

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Speaker 1: there been previous suicide attempts? What was her status? Was

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Speaker 1: she more rose? Was she you know really you know,

330
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Speaker 1: kind of gloom and doom, those sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny in an odd way. I just when

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Speaker 2: I thought about medical legal death investigation, I thought, here's

333
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Speaker 2: the physical body, here's the physical stuff that happened, How

334
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Speaker 2: did the person die? Blah blah blah. Never occurred to

335
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Speaker 2: me that you would actually have to find out who

336
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Speaker 2: this person is over life and in death. It didn't

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Speaker 2: occur to me.

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Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, you really have to. And for us in

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Speaker 1: the medical legal world, I'm not disparaging my colleagues in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement by saying this, but their interest drops off

341
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Speaker 1: pretty sharply. If they suspect that it is a suicide,

342
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Speaker 1: you're not going to because they've got other cases they're

343
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Speaker 1: going to move on to, which are homicides. Right, But

344
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Speaker 1: it falls to us to try to glean as much

345
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Speaker 1: information as we can, to speak to the forensic pathologists

346
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Speaker 1: about it, who ultimately has to rule the case. You know,

347
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Speaker 1: one of the five manners of death and so.

348
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Speaker 2: Roll those over for a show. What are the five

349
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Speaker 2: commanders of death?

350
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Speaker 1: Yeah? No, kid, Well, you know, we begin to think

351
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Speaker 1: about accident suicide. We talked about accident just a moment ago.

352
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Speaker 1: Is this is the possibility that this could be accident.

353
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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe we have to consider it suicide.

354
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Speaker 1: Well it's hanging, so yeah, I mean that's going to

355
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Speaker 1: pop up on the radar pretty quickly. Homicide.

356
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Speaker 3: Uh.

357
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Speaker 1: You know, we've heard about obviously about lynch mobs in

358
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Speaker 1: the past. There's a reason they referred to as mobs

359
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 1: because no one willingly goes to hang themselves. So it

360
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: takes a group of people most of the time to

361
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Speaker 1: get together to put a noose around someone's neck, tied

362
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,200
Speaker 1: it off facilitated all those sorts of things. Is it undetermined?

363
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: Is it a natural event? Well, I guess you could

364
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Speaker 1: have a heart attack and fall into I don't know,

365
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 1: rope perhaps and you wind up being hung. But what's

366
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Speaker 1: actually what's actually the ch answers of that happening in

367
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 1: a circumstance like this, I think that they're probably slim

368
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: and none. So that leaves us in this odd in

369
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 1: this odd set of circumstances Adam Marina where a woman

370
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Speaker 1: whose arm is positioned in this kind of grotesque manner,

371
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Speaker 1: if you will, is this typical of a of a

372
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Speaker 1: homicide or is it a suicide? So you whittle it

373
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Speaker 1: down pretty quickly. But Dave, when a civilian walks up

374
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Speaker 1: and they actually make comment that the arm is in this,

375
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Speaker 1: and I've heard a couple of terms that have been

376
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: used in this, it's kind of grotesque, it's twisted all

377
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 1: these sorts of things. Those things don't really mesh for me,

378
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,399
Speaker 1: not with the suicides I've seen.

379
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 2: I was looking over what Lieutenant Eric Cox is telling

380
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 2: the media, and I'm not saying this like the guy

381
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 2: was seeking out cameras. It's just this is a fairly

382
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: small area League City, Texas. It's Adam Marina, a very

383
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 2: small area where you do have people living on boats

384
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: and things they might not think of being in a

385
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: state campground area. You know, where you go and you

386
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: pull your trailer in and they have a general area

387
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: where for bathing and things like that, and you do

388
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: get to know your neighbors because you're living a unique,

389
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 2: different lifestyle. And in this case, Christian Allen finds the

390
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: body and he says, odd way, the arm was not right,

391
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 2: and Lieutenant Eric Cox is explaining this to all the media.

392
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: He's saying that her arm was fixed in a rigid position,

393
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: suspended in the air, and he direct quote, we believe.

394
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: We believe she probably passed away with her arm extended

395
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: up above her head like that. And then rigor ryger

396
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 2: mortis had set in prior to her being placed like that.

397
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: Talking about the way she was found. Wow, Joe, that

398
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: would take a lot to move dead weight stiffened out, yes,

399
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: and but dead weight I mean that just.

400
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: No, you're you're absolutely there's a reason people use that term.

401
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: You're getting no help.

402
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: No, you're not. You're you're not you know, if we're

403
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: if somebody and we all remember being kids and people

404
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: picking us up, or you know, maybe you've picked your

405
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: kids up. You don't realize that they're actually helping you

406
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: with the way you know, you think j yeah, oh boy, yeah,

407
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: hold my back. Yeah, but you think about you know,

408
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: them clinging to you. The dead don't cling to anything.

409
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: They are dead weight. And here's the problem for the investigators.

410
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,640
Speaker 1: They're going to look at this just like you did, Dave,

411
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,239
Speaker 1: and they're going to say, is it possible. Is it

412
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: possible that maybe she died in another location and that

413
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: she was placed here approximating the boat where she was

414
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: living with her boyfriend, And was there only one person

415
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: involved in this? I think the big.

416
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: Question is is this a staged suicide?

417
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: Staging? I've heard this term for years and years, and

418
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: people have this tremendous fear of it. From an investigative standpoint,

419
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: I know I do, because I really wonder over the years, Dave,

420
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: how many cases did I miss? What was out there

421
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: that I missed because I believed what my lying eyes

422
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 1: were telling me at that particular moment time, and I

423
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: just went with that narrative that I saw before me,

424
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: instead of being as objective as I could have been

425
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: in a particular situation. I wasn't necessarily. And so when

426
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: you have the term staged come into a conversation as

427
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: it applies to a death, you have to think about, well,

428
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: they have to if this was a stage death, what

429
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: did they miss? And here's why I was kind of

430
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: contemplating this before we were going to chat today, and

431
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: I wanted to throw this out to you and just

432
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: tell me, from a perspective of a non death investigator,

433
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: what do you think about this? If you're going to

434
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: stage a death. Okay, if you're going to stage a death,

435
00:27:54,880 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: first off, you have to commit potentially a homicide. How

436
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 1: skilled are you at committing a homicide. I don't know

437
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 1: too many people that are, because even with a standard homicide,

438
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: you're going to miss something. You're going to screw up somehow.

439
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: It always happens. There are no perfect homicides. But you

440
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: get the bright idea in your mind. Okay, well, not

441
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: only I'm going to kill somebody. Now I'm going to

442
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: add another technical layer to this, and I'm going to

443
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: try to make it look like something other than what

444
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: it was. It's not just enough to have killed them

445
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: and left them there. Now I'm going to take a

446
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other evidence that I've created now because

447
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: I'm manipulating the body, I'm changing the environment, all these

448
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: other things that plays into it. And you might think

449
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: that you're deceiving people, but all along you're creating more evidence.

450
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: So you begin to see kind of why we can

451
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: actually go for a week long seminars Dave and they're

452
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: out there on staged deaths. We're going to sit in

453
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: a classroom for forty hours and learn about staging, which

454
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: is quite amazing. People are really you know, they're worried

455
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: about it as investigators because they're afraid they're going to

456
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: miss something.

457
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: Well, all right, Joe, you and I have talked about

458
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: security cameras. Surveillance cameras video that is available on almost

459
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: every street corner in America, every building, it seems, and

460
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: when a crime is committed, it's one of the first

461
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: things we go to look for. Was there any kind

462
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: of security in Ada Marina? Yeah, they're going to have video.

463
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: Oh boy, they do. Yeah.

464
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: And if you have a boat, yeah, you're going to

465
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: actually have cameras. Well, here's this goop. There were cameras,

466
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: but they were powered off the nearby security cameras have

467
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: been powered off turned in a different direction during the

468
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: time of the victim's death. How odd is that somebody

469
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: living there wouldn't know. Hey, camera pointed right here, covering

470
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: my end. Oh wait a minute, it's not pointed in

471
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: the right direction anymore. I need to add something here.

472
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: The boyfriend that she was living with, James Hart, immediately

473
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: makes this all about him. I went back and looked

474
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: at his comments because he said, this is the worst

475
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: thing that's ever happened to me, And I'm thinking, yeah,

476
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: she was your girlfriend and you were living together on

477
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: a boat. But she has four children, she has family

478
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: that cares and loves her, and it's the worst thing

479
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: that happened to you. That's step one. Step two is

480
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: this Joe. Immediately, the guy that finds the body, Christian Allen, says,

481
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: this sounds really bad. Here, it did not happen this way.

482
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: According to Heart, Giselle left the boat sometime after midnight

483
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom and never returned. This goes

484
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: back to what you said earlier about general area of

485
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: going to a restroom, not on the boat, like.

486
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: You mentioned, just like a campground where you have a

487
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: bathhouse and all that sort of stuff.

488
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so she never comes back. According to her boyfriend,

489
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: she leaves after midnight and never comes back to bed.

490
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: Two cameras on Heart's boat were found down after tampering.

491
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: Police say they were broke, they were not working, but

492
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: it was due to tampering. One had been turned away

493
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: from his boat entirely, while the other was completely missing.

494
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: Police have identified two persons of interest in this going

495
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 2: into suspicious death, and authorities have interviewed both people, saying

496
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: that they had the closest interaction with Giselle while she

497
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: lived at the dock. Now, you mentioned earlier about the

498
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: living on a boat in a doglike area like this,

499
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: not a whole lot of run around room. So the

500
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 2: four children were not staying with her on the boat apparently.

501
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: I'm just saying apparently, because that isn't addressed in any

502
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: of the information I've been able to glean from this

503
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: so far. I'll find out and follow up. But thankfully

504
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: they weren't there to see their mother hanging from the

505
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: side of the dock with her arm extended out like

506
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: you you know. But the other part of it is

507
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: you mentioned you've never heard of a hanging where the

508
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: person was partially submerged partially submerged.

509
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that puts this into a completely different category.

510
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: And let me lay some signs on you here really quick.

511
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: First off, if you've got this arm in this kind

512
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: of grotesque position, you know which the finder, it's the

513
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: first thing kind of stands out to his statement, right,

514
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: wow youah, Okay, I might have confirmed in my mind

515
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: that she's deceased, but this really looks bizarre. Well, we've

516
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: talked about rigor rigor, right, okay, yeah, Well we'll talk

517
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: about one more thing. We'll talk about post mortm lividity

518
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: here because you know what happens. And when we say

519
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: postmarmal avidity or liver mortise or liver mortise, some people

520
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: pronounce it that way. Blood is drawn down by gravity.

521
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: By gravity, okay, it's going to settle to the lowest points.

522
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: You know, with suspended hangings. One of the things we

523
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: see and we think about suspension. Blood will go to

524
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: the ankles and to the wrist and the fingertips and

525
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: the feet if they're completely suspended, and they'll swell, their

526
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: hands will swell because of this engorgement if you will,

527
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: of blood in those vessels, and you have this distinct, distinct,

528
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: deep deep color purple that you see that gives you

529
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: the impression it's the same shade many times as an eggplant,

530
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: just to give you that idea. The weird thing about it, Dave,

531
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: is that if someone if someone dies in the water

532
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: post morm lividity in an aquatic environment doesn't distribute like

533
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: it does in a non aquatic environment. And the reason

534
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: is think about the dead man's float. Okay, how when

535
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: your kid you get in the pool and your arms

536
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: just kind of hanging your faces down, that sort of thing. Well,

537
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: gravity doesn't have the same effect in water as it

538
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: does on dry land, So you're going to get this

539
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: real kind of spotty, diffuse looking kind of presentation of

540
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: lyra mortis. And it's because if the body is kind

541
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: of floating like that, gravity, the whole sequencing of this

542
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: is going to be uh, it's going to appear odd

543
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: if you've never seen it. And the reason this is important,

544
00:34:54,120 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: just like the riger rigor, is that you have stiffening

545
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: of the body going on. Well, arms don't stiffen above

546
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 1: the head, Okay, in our world, they if you fall

547
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: down face down. I hate the term face down because

548
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: a lot of things can be implied by that in

549
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 1: a prone position is the term we prefer to use.

550
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: And you're laying on your tummy, arm extended above your head, okay,

551
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: and you're left to lay there for a period of time, Well,

552
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: stiffening is going to set in and you can't break it.

553
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: You can, but you have to take time to do that.

554
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: Just like post mortal lividity. Well, let's just say, and

555
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that she was, but let's just say

556
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: she was laying face down in a prone position. Lividity

557
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: is going to seek the anterior aspect of the body,

558
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: the front of the body, because gravity is pulling the

559
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: blood down. Well, if you're in an aquatic environment and

560
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: post mortal avidity is still setting in, it's going to

561
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 1: be this weird, diffuse kind of thing. But if it

562
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: happened on land and it's fixed, you can't undo that

563
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: because now those little vessels have burst into that soft

564
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: interstitial tissue. You can't rearrange it. Dude, It's there and

565
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: so it will be set in. So when I've heard

566
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: this term staging relative to this case several times in

567
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: various reports, they're seeing something here, Dave with the stiffening,

568
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: and I think that they're probably seeing something with postmarmal avidity.

569
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: And here's the biggest thing, because generally this is what

570
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: people are trying to cover up when they use a

571
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: staged hanging. There is probably trauma to this neck. And

572
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 1: you know, these individuals out there might think that, well,

573
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: if I wrap and I don't know that this has happened,

574
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: but if I wrap my hands around a person's throat

575
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: and squeeze the life as it were, out of them,

576
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: and then I'll put a rope around their neck and

577
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: it will look like hanging. It doesn't look like hanging.

578
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: You've got a rope furrow that comes along with hanging

579
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,720
Speaker 1: because gravity, again is pulling in a suspension, it's pulling

580
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: it down. And you actually get a feature with hanging

581
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: that I think we've discussed before. That's called tinting feature

582
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: and not ti in t but te nt like pup tint.

583
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: You have the rope comes to an apex behind the

584
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: head and it creates a furrow. It creates a furrow

585
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: that's very distinctive. So if you have, say, somebody that

586
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 1: has been here's another word that people kind of reverse

587
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: has been garrotted or garroded, where they have a literature

588
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: wrapped around their neck as a tool for homicide. That

589
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: rope is running parallel to their shoulders. You create another

590
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: farrow furrow rather, but it's going to go parallel to

591
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: his shoulder. It's not going to look like a hanging.

592
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: And if it's a strangulation with the bare hands, now

593
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: you really are going to have diffuse hemorrhage all over

594
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: the surface of the neck because you're squeezing all of

595
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: those areas. So to say that this is a half

596
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: hearted effort, I think is an insult to all half

597
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: hearted efforts that are out there relative to a staged hanging.

598
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: And I think the police might very well be on

599
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: to something here.

600
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 2: Dave, you know. According to hart James Hartt, the boyfriend.

601
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: He says that Giselle left the boat sometime after midnight

602
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: to go to the bathroom, never returned. He says he

603
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: checked the bathrooms when she didn't return, but failed to

604
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 2: find her. The Christian Allen, the man who did find

605
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: her body and noticed right away that the arm was out.

606
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: I'm wondering, at some point in time, after rigor mortis

607
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: has set in and the person is stiff, doesn't that

608
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: go away after a certain period of time where the

609
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: muscles are now relaxed and the body is now moving

610
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: or able to move. But I mean that arm eventually,

611
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: doesn't it get where you can move it again?

612
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it becomes what's referred to as flaccid. And there

613
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: are other terms that flacidity is used for in medicine

614
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: for treatment of certain things, but in this term, in

615
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: this particular sense, the limbs are flaccid, but it takes

616
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: a specific amount of time for that. That's the beauty

617
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 1: of post warum interval. And again it's always my fallback position.

618
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: I can't help myself. It's one of the clues that

619
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: we look for. But you're you're looking, you're looking under

620
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: certain circumstances. I'll say the outer marker for this, it's

621
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: probably going to be about thirty six hours where the

622
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: body becomes flaccid again. Who Yeah, Many people believe that

623
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: once stiffness sits in rigidity, that it's there forever and

624
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: ever amen, And it's just not. It's that lactic acid

625
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: that is beginning to reduce in the joints, you know.

626
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: And if we work out in life and you wake

627
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: up the next morning and that this is from aside

628
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: from an injury, you may have sustained, you're gonna feel stiff. Well,

629
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: that stiffness that you experience is from lactic acid build up, okay,

630
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: And you can take motorn or tilant all or whatever. Well,

631
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: I hope I can say that, and they're not sponsoring us,

632
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: but anyway, but anyway, it's going to resolve. That will

633
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: eventually resolve on its own, not with lactic acid though

634
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: build up in the joints. It actually has to kind

635
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: of bleed off, if you will, and there is a

636
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: measurable marker for that day, just like with postmarmal lipidity,

637
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: if you get to the point where it is not

638
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: where it remains, it's no longer blanchable. And blanchable simply

639
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 1: means that you press into the skin and you remove,

640
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: like you press your thumb on the surface of the

641
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 1: skin of the deceased where you have lividity, and you

642
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: remove your thumb after you've pressed in and the color

643
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: doesn't change. That means it's fixed, okay, And that takes

644
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: a prescribed amount of time for that to happen. So

645
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: you've got those two elements working, you know, in your

646
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: favor as far as determine.

647
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, not soon after somebody dies, does rigor mortis

648
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: bragger mortis set in?

649
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it it begins. It begins at a cellular level

650
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: pretty quickly, but it's not detectable. You don't pick up

651
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: on it. And the old adage is is that and

652
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: this is wrong by the way people say, well, it

653
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: starts in the jaw first and extends out to the body. No,

654
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Wow, it starts in all muscle groups and

655
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: extends out. It's just more in the smaller and literally

656
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: the eyelids. Do you know that you can get rocking

657
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 1: Morris in the eyelids? You can get it in the jaw,

658
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: which is very common, that stiffness of the jaw. And

659
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: I think that we've talked about this. This is why

660
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: they used to tie kerchiefs around the head in Victorian

661
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: times with people that had died, and it was to

662
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: keep their mouth shut. Now in the funeral home they

663
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: wire mouth shut and so that you don't have the

664
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: chance for the mouth to open up because it was

665
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: considered to be obscene, you know, back during that period

666
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: of time. So they tie kerchief around the head and

667
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,439
Speaker 1: it would hold the jaw in place until stiffness set in.

668
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: But after a while it's going to disperse, and you

669
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: can move these elements around. But from what we're hearing

670
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: in this particular case, it sounds like we're within that window.

671
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: And the beauty of that, Dave is that And here's

672
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: kind of what I'm thinking. I really wonder if if

673
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: her arm is extended out in this odd way, had

674
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: someone killed this young lady and sat over her body

675
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: and contemplated, what in the world am I going to

676
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: do now that I've got a dead body? And this

677
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: goes back to what we had mentioned earlier. Not only

678
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: are you committing a homicide, now now you have to

679
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: stage it and to make it look like something else.

680
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: So if she's in this weird extended position, well she's

681
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: been there long enough. Perhaps that is in this initial

682
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: position where she's going to become rigid, and all of

683
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,839
Speaker 1: a sudden, some Einstein has the degree, you know, has

684
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 1: the thought, oh, well, I know what I'll do. I'll

685
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: take the body and put a rope around the body

686
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: and hang it off of the dock to give the

687
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: appearance that she's met with a nasty accident, or perhaps

688
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: just perhaps she decided to end her life and it

689
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 1: will give that appearance. The police see something here, Dave

690
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: and I think that it's essential that not only do

691
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: they see something in this context, but they've also identified

692
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: two persons of interest. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

693
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: is bodybacks