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Speaker 1: Why are churches in Christmas displays around the world being attacked.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get into that and we'll explore the

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Speaker 1: case of the kinky Vatican official on this edition of

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Speaker 1: The Prayerful Polse. Welcome to The Prayerful Posse. Be sure

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Speaker 1: to go subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful way

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Speaker 1: of support the work. And look, this is totally free,

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Speaker 1: so visit Raymondarroyo dot com if you'd like.

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Speaker 2: To contribute to our work. Let's convene the Prayerful Posse.

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Speaker 1: Canon lawyer and Priest of the Archdiocese of New York,

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Speaker 1: Father Gerald Murray, and that editor in chief of The

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Speaker 1: Catholic Thing dot Org, Robert Royal.

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Speaker 2: Thank you both for being here.

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Speaker 1: I saw this story out of Switzerland where a seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old Afghan asylum seeker walked into a chapel of

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Speaker 1: Mercy at Einstein Deln Abbey, climbed onto the altar, stripped

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Speaker 1: the clothes off the Black Madonna, and then crowned himself

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Speaker 1: with her crown. He stood there scepter in hand, while

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Speaker 1: pilgrims were agassed in horror. The monastery is calling it

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Speaker 1: an unfortunate incident by a confused person and they're praying

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Speaker 1: for him. The authority say he's undergoing psychiatric treatment. Now

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Speaker 1: this seems to be part of a pattern. A recently

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Speaker 1: released report shows anti Christian hate crimes across Europe topped

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Speaker 1: twenty two hundred cases in twenty twenty four, with arson

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Speaker 1: attacks on churches nearly doubling, Bob, Why is the church

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Speaker 1: so unwilling to see and call out what is so

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Speaker 1: plain to everybody else?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say it's a puzzle to me too, Raymond,

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Speaker 3: because it's so palpable. The report that you mentioned is

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Speaker 3: carried out by a group in Vienna with which I've

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Speaker 3: worked on my own work on martyrdom and persecution, and

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Speaker 3: they use Europe's own criteria for what constitutes a hate crime.

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Speaker 3: So this is not something that Catholics are Christians or

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Speaker 3: others are concocting. This is something that, even by European standards,

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Speaker 3: is just an absolute outrage. And you know, there's figures

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Speaker 3: like France loses two religious buildings a month even though

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Speaker 3: they try to protect them and whatnot. I think that unfortunately,

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Speaker 3: this all goes back to a kind of a mistake

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Speaker 3: in reading a Vatican who whereby you are trying to

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Speaker 3: push inter religious dialogue so much that you can never

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Speaker 3: say anything substantially critical of another religion. And I think

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Speaker 3: in this particular case, I mean, I don't think it's anybody.

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Speaker 3: It's a surprise to anybody. That is a very difficult

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Speaker 3: thing to enculturate when you come from some of these

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Speaker 3: Middle Eastern cultures. So it happens over and over again. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: some of these people are mentally disturbed because they are

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Speaker 3: living in societies that they don't understand and that puzzle them.

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Speaker 3: But we need the church itself, probably we need the

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Speaker 3: pope himself, Yeah, speak out about this.

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Speaker 1: Father is the church's pastoral response enabling this dangerous naivete

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Speaker 1: about what's actually happening in Europe. I mean, I want

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Speaker 1: to show you this. This is Frankfurt this week.

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Speaker 2: Okay. A Christmas market was vandalized.

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Speaker 1: Animals in a living nativity were abused, they were punched,

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Speaker 1: the attackers then deficcated in a Protestant church, and Christmas

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Speaker 1: trees have been cut down all over the place. Why

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Speaker 1: is the church so reluctant to call this out?

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Speaker 4: That's a great question. I can only speculate that, as

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Speaker 4: Bob said, they had this false notion that criticizing religious

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Speaker 4: religiously motivated hate directed toward Christianity is somehow something we're

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Speaker 4: not supposed to do. But we're not hating someone by

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Speaker 4: telling them what you're doing is a sacrilege, an outrage,

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Speaker 4: a hate crime. You know, the man who went into

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Speaker 4: that church, it would have been an unfortunate instant if

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Speaker 4: he tripped and broke his arm. He climbed up on

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Speaker 4: the altar, he targeted the center of the Christian church

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Speaker 4: and then made a mockery of the statue of Our

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Speaker 4: Lady and her Crown. This is a hate crime. You know,

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Speaker 4: the church has to be active in describing to people

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Speaker 4: what's going on, because otherwise we're just going to basically think, well,

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Speaker 4: this is how a group of people acts. There are

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Speaker 4: a lot of people from the Islamic world who do this.

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Speaker 4: We better get used to it. No, we have to

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Speaker 4: stop it right now. We are not the punching bag

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Speaker 4: of the world.

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Speaker 2: Father.

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Speaker 1: Amazingly, the abbey we talked about at the top of

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Speaker 1: the show, they have not changed their security protocols and

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Speaker 1: say they won't. Now this ties to what we heard

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Speaker 1: the Pope say last week, and we dove into this.

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Speaker 1: During his trip to Lebanon, he called the country a

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Speaker 1: mosaic of coexistence between Christianity and Islam. He talked about

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Speaker 1: bell towers and minarets sounding and rising up to the

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Speaker 1: One God, and then he blamed Islamophobia in Europe on

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Speaker 1: anti migrant sentiment there, or blamed the Islama phobia for

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Speaker 1: driving the anti migrant sentiment. Lebanon is a country that's

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Speaker 1: been devastated by sectarian violence for decades, and in Syria,

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Speaker 1: Christians are being slaughtered all over the place.

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Speaker 2: What gives here?

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Speaker 1: Why is everybody, all the leaders of the church so

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Speaker 1: reluctant to say we have a problem here. And the

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Speaker 1: problem is when Islam comes into contact with the ancient

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Speaker 1: Christianity in these lands.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's a refusal. It's sort of voluntary amnesia. It's

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Speaker 4: a refusal to acknowledge history, both ancient and recent. It's

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Speaker 4: also a refusal to consider that defending your own religion

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Speaker 4: is not an offense against other religions. The pretense is

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Speaker 4: if we stand up for Christianity, that means we're crushing

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Speaker 4: other people. Absolutely not, We're standing up for what is

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Speaker 4: right and just, we're standing up for divine Revelation, and

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Speaker 4: we're teaching people a lesson. You want coexistence that means respect.

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Speaker 4: It does mean that we shut down our operations is

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Speaker 4: you don't like us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, imagine if Catholics walked into a mosque, Bob, and

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Speaker 1: they started, you know, chanting or throwing things on the wall.

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Speaker 1: How long you think they'd last. I mean, you've been

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Speaker 1: to Lebanon, by the way too. You know the history there.

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Speaker 1: Christians have been systematically pushed out of that region for generations.

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Speaker 1: Lebanon was once a majority Christian country, so was Egypt,

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Speaker 1: and Turkey was the heart of early Christianity. The Seven

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Speaker 1: Churches of Revelation, they're all in Turkey. All of those

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Speaker 1: places are now overwhelmingly Muslim. That didn't happen through coexistence, Bob.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there's a historical problem here. I mean,

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Speaker 3: when the Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War One, very

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Speaker 3: few people understand this. Those countries were not separate countries.

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Speaker 3: They were all ruled by the Ottoman I mean there

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Speaker 3: was a region called Lebanon, there's a region called Syria,

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Speaker 3: region called Iraq. But they were not independent countries. And

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Speaker 3: so when the Turkish Ottoman and fell, it required what

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Speaker 3: some people deplore as colonial invasions of the French had

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Speaker 3: Syria and Lebanon, and the British had Jordan in Palestine

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Speaker 3: and whatnot. But at least things were there was a

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Speaker 3: lid kept on the violence. And of course under the

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Speaker 3: Ottoman Empire, Christians were mildly persecuted. They were called dimi's

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Speaker 3: that had to pay a tax to remain creation, and

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Speaker 3: there was kind of a you know, coexistence. But since then,

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Speaker 3: and since the withdrawal of so called colonial powers, this

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Speaker 3: violence and this sectarian violence has erupted. And I think

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Speaker 3: that the Pope has those exactly backwards. That he says

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Speaker 3: that people are using Islam as an excuse to oppose immigration.

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Speaker 3: I think that's wrong. They opposed the immigration because it's Islamic.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if Switzerland sent tomorrow one hundred thousand Swiss

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Speaker 3: into France, I don't think the French should be particularly

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Speaker 3: you know, they might be surprised at it, But what

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Speaker 3: would happen. I mean, the Swiss would take, you know,

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Speaker 3: start cleaning things up, and then you know, they would

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Speaker 3: start businesses. And I mean there's a cultural question here

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Speaker 3: that goes alongside the religious question of can you you

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Speaker 3: can deplore that these people are not being integrated, but

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Speaker 3: is it possible, I mean, is a national government able

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Speaker 3: to do that in a way that will prevent some

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Speaker 3: of this violence. I think that this is a very

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Speaker 3: short sighted and actually not entirely candid view of what's

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Speaker 3: going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Father, we did see a little clash of cultures

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Speaker 1: during the pope's visit. I mean, he made that decision

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Speaker 1: to not pray at the Blue Mosque in Turkey when

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Speaker 1: he was there, and he said, I prefer to pray

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Speaker 1: in a Catholic church with the blessed sacrament rather than

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Speaker 1: in a mosque. Now there again, father, we see what

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Speaker 1: we called last week the two step on Islam.

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Speaker 2: On the one hand, he.

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Speaker 1: Kind of calls for coexistence in the minarets, but he

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Speaker 1: made the decision not to pray in the Blue Mosque.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and I think that was the right decision, because

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Speaker 4: that's not the house of prayer for Christians. You know,

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Speaker 4: that's established by the Islamic faith, and that's where Muslims

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Speaker 4: go to pray. So you can visit someone's house, but

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Speaker 4: you don't then treat it as your own. And that's

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Speaker 4: what he did. And I think that was very respectful.

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Speaker 1: I want to get into this in the US, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of is related. It's again using Christmas and

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Speaker 1: the celebration of Christmas and the sacred for another a

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Speaker 1: reason other than worship of God. In the US, ICE

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Speaker 1: immigration enforcement is spreading across the country and the anti

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Speaker 1: ICE rhetoric continues to heat up. A Catholic parish in Dedham, Massachusetts,

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Speaker 1: just outside of Boston, they put up a Nativity scene

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Speaker 1: in place of the Holy Family, so Mary, Joseph and

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Speaker 1: the Christ Child are not there. Instead, there's a sign

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Speaker 1: that reads ice was here. Another message the Holy Family

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Speaker 1: is safe in our church. If you see Ice, please

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Speaker 1: call Loose Now. Loose is a migrant advocacy group. The

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Speaker 1: archdiocese asked the pastor there at the Santa Susana to

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Speaker 1: take the display down, calling it divisive political messaging, but

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Speaker 1: the pastor refused. Father The Archdiocese says the parish priest

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Speaker 1: neither received nor requested permission to depart from canonical norms

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Speaker 1: regarding sacred objects. They're saying the images of Christ Child

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Speaker 1: and the Manger are to be used solely to foster

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Speaker 1: faith and devotion. What's the actual church law here? And

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Speaker 1: your take on this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the Boston arch diaceis is correct. A

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Speaker 4: major scene is meant to, you know, bring forth religious

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Speaker 4: sentiments and allow for prayer, to give people a visible

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Speaker 4: image of what happens at Christmas. So, yeah, Boston's in

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Speaker 4: the right now. This priest is defiant and he's politicized

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Speaker 4: his parish. He's made it into a focus of anti

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Speaker 4: immigration enforcement officers, treating them as somehow equivalent to you

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Speaker 4: knowing the Holy Family. This is absolutely a false analogy. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I consider this ad this a street theater in which

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Speaker 4: politics trump's religion and then throw on top of it

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Speaker 4: disobedience to the bishop because the bishop doesn't want him

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Speaker 4: to do it, and he says, well, I'll only take

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Speaker 4: it down after I meet with the bishop. Well, the

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Speaker 4: bishops to say, next time you meet with me, you

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Speaker 4: won't be the pastor anymore unless you take it down

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Speaker 4: before you meet with me.

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Speaker 2: That's what should happen, Bob.

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Speaker 1: Is a Nativity the proper vehicle for this kind of

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Speaker 1: political message. We're seeing this, by the way, all over

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Speaker 1: the country, Protestant and Catholic churches are engaged. And would

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Speaker 1: father just call street theater protesting ice yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think the use of the Holy Family in particular

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Speaker 3: shows that we have a great deal of difficulty thinking

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Speaker 3: clearly about this immigration question in Christian circles, frankly, because

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Speaker 3: where was the Holy Family an immigrant family? It was

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Speaker 3: in Egypt. It wasn't at the Birth of Christ in Palace,

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Speaker 3: din in Bethlehem. So I mean people are kind of

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Speaker 3: confusing two different things. I mean, it's Herod who drove

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Speaker 3: the Holy Family into Egypt, and suddenly the Holy Family

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Speaker 3: is somehow symbolic of immigrants. To this, it's a confusion

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Speaker 3: that you almost despair of how you're going to explain

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Speaker 3: to people what this is, and what they want to

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Speaker 3: do is just play on the emotion. Of course, we all,

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Speaker 3: you know, we feel bad for people who are in

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Speaker 3: difficult circumstances and have to be removed. But at the

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Speaker 3: same time we also have to be following the law

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Speaker 3: and respecting what our own religion teaches, not using are

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Speaker 3: the most sacred symbols of the Holy Family, Joseph, Mary,

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Speaker 3: Jesus just being born, the crush scene that was created

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Speaker 3: by Saint Francis Assezi to make a political point right

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Speaker 3: now that it isn't even logically the right point that

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Speaker 3: they're trying to make it. It almost makes a despair

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Speaker 3: of human reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's really and it's insulting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a boss Archidiocese is right. They're profaning

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Speaker 1: the sacred here, these objects, this Nativity scene was meant

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Speaker 1: to draw people to God at this time of year,

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Speaker 1: not to make your little political stunt. That's not what

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Speaker 1: this is here for What next They're going to have

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Speaker 1: banners and make statements in the middle of the Mass.

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Speaker 1: It's outrageous. I mean it's a profanation of the season

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Speaker 1: and really the Holy Family itself. I need to get

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Speaker 1: to this international story. Ukrainian President Zelensky met with Pope

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Speaker 1: Leo for the third time this week, as President Trump

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Speaker 1: is laboring to craft a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Pope Leo weighed in on Trump's approach and rhetoric, claiming

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Speaker 1: the President is trying to break apart the alliance between

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Speaker 1: the US and Europe.

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Speaker 3: Listen the remarks that are made about Europe also in

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Speaker 3: the interviews recently, I think are trying to break apart

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Speaker 3: what I think needs to be a very important alliance

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Speaker 3: today and in the future.

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Speaker 2: How are your thoughts on this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it seems Pope Leo's outpacing even Francis when

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Speaker 1: it comes to press conferences.

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Speaker 2: But is the Pope exceeding his charism here?

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Speaker 4: Well, let me look at it from a couple of

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Speaker 4: points of view. The first thing is, yes, he's giving

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Speaker 4: a weekly interview now on Tuesdays, he takes a day

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Speaker 4: off by leaving Rome takes a helicopter to Castro Gondolfo,

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Speaker 4: which is where the papal summer residence is. I think

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Speaker 4: that's great. The Pope needs time away from the office,

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Speaker 4: so to speak. He needs time we can reflect and pray.

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Speaker 4: But what I don't think he needs is to turn

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Speaker 4: his day off into the media scrum where all of

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Speaker 4: these people who are waiting for headlines to be made

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Speaker 4: are asking him essentially political questions. Second point would be,

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Speaker 4: I don't think it's appropriate for the Pope to be

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Speaker 4: commenting on the relation between the European Union, the President

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Speaker 4: of United States, NATO, Russia and other things in such

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Speaker 4: a way that he's getting into the specifics of power

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Speaker 4: balances and what Trump's doing. You know, if you know

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Speaker 4: anything about Trump, which I think most of our viewers do.

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Speaker 4: The guy's a superb negotiator. He knows how to put

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Speaker 4: out threats and say things he never intends to enforce

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Speaker 4: in order to.

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Speaker 3: Get his way.

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Speaker 4: Stay out of that. That's not his role. Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: think sad to say. The temptation for Pope Leo here

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Speaker 4: is to say, if I get involved on a nitty

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Speaker 4: gritty level of commenting about how these negotiations are proceeding,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to help the process. And my answer is

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Speaker 4: not really. Your help will be to not say moral principles.

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Speaker 4: You know, let's get down to the moral principle. The

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Speaker 4: illegal entry by warfare into someone else's country is always sinful.

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Speaker 4: That's what we have to start with. And then how

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Speaker 4: do we resolve a situation based on sin? That's where

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Speaker 4: we can go, and that's where Catholic teaching is helpful.

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Speaker 1: Bob, your thoughts on what this does to papal credibility

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Speaker 1: when there seems to be a daily pronouncement from the

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Speaker 1: pope not on faith morals his father said, but on

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Speaker 1: geopolitics and the minutia of a negotiation that's been dragging

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Speaker 1: on for months.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sorry to say. Not only do I think

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Speaker 3: it was inappropriate for the Pope to weigh in on this.

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Speaker 3: I don't think he has a very good grip on

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Speaker 3: what's actually going on, because Trump is not seeking to

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Speaker 3: isolate Europe from an alliance with the United States. But

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Speaker 3: if you read that National Security Strategy, what he's saying

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Speaker 3: is that the EU, which is different than Europe that

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Speaker 3: I mean that really affirms that document actually affirms the

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Speaker 3: individual sovereignty of the European states. And what he doesn't

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Speaker 3: like is what he didn't like in the Democratic Party,

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Speaker 3: which is that there's this progressivism in the EU. It

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Speaker 3: is not very transparent democratically, I mean, it tries to

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Speaker 3: force down the throats of individual countries in Europe, things

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Speaker 3: like LGBT, things like virtually open borders, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: it's right for a president to say to a group

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Speaker 3: like the EU, wait a minute. You know, I want

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Speaker 3: to be an ally of all the different countries here,

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Speaker 3: but I want to see a greater transparency. I don't

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Speaker 3: want to see this kind of globalist ideology standing in

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Speaker 3: the way of the way that we're going to interact

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Speaker 3: with one another. That is actually a very interesting story,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think that Pope Leo knows that that's

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Speaker 3: what the document actually says. And the document also worries

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Speaker 3: that because of some of the massive immigration, there may

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Speaker 3: be countries that are no longer reliable as allies in

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Speaker 3: the future, which I think is a very realistic appraisal

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Speaker 3: of where things can be down on the line. So, look,

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Speaker 3: you can disagree with any political position that anybody takes

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Speaker 3: to kind of baldly come out and say, you know

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Speaker 3: this is wrong. This is really breaking down an alliance.

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Speaker 3: I don't really think that it's his role to do it.

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Speaker 3: And if you're going to do it, you better know

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Speaker 3: what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I think Popoleo's clearly misreading this thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's a breakdown in the alliance. I

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Speaker 1: think Trump's trying to break the logjam here and get

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Speaker 1: to peace because so many lives have been lost. I

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Speaker 1: mean he's repeated that. I've heard him repeat it in

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Speaker 1: press conferences, in private meetings where the bloodshed has been intense,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of men killed and children and women.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's the bloodshed has to stop. And I

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Speaker 1: wish the Pope had started there on the human and

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Speaker 1: moral toll of this rather than running to some political

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Speaker 1: alliance and worrying about NATO and the EU. Anyway, while

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Speaker 1: we're at the Vatican, Father Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez. He's

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Speaker 1: the head of the Vatican's Doctrinal Office, appointed by Pope Francis,

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Speaker 1: and he remains in that office. He wrote a quasi

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Speaker 1: erotic book I guess you could call it several years

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Speaker 1: ago called Heal Me with Your Mouth The Art of Kissing.

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Speaker 1: He followed that up with another book called The Mystical Passion,

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Speaker 1: Spirituality and Sensuality. Well, this week Wanderer dug up some

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Speaker 1: other texts where he refers to orgasms and writes, quote,

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Speaker 1: a body can make an impact if it wears the

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Speaker 1: right clothes, clothes that awaken sensuality by accentuating interesting shapes.

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Speaker 2: That's from a book.

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Speaker 1: Called Why, or a text rather called why Can't I

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Speaker 1: Finish Healing Myself? In another work called Spiritual Depth in Action,

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Speaker 1: Cardinal Fernandez encourages the reader to quote, experience the sensations

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Speaker 1: of each organ calmly, without judging whether those sensations are

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Speaker 1: good or bad, but trying to relax and unwind that

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Speaker 1: organ stomach, waist, hips, buttocks, genitals. The key is to

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Speaker 1: linger without rushing in one place at a time. There

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Speaker 1: is no rush, father, your reaction to these bizarre, borderline,

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Speaker 1: kinky instructions and meditations from a cleric and a cardinal.

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Speaker 4: No less, and a cardinal occupies what used to be

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Speaker 4: the second most important position in the Roman hierarchy. This

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Speaker 4: is a total disgrace when the Pope Francis appointed this

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Speaker 4: cardinal to the job he has in Rome. These books

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Speaker 4: surfaced as being part of his the first two books

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Speaker 4: you mentioned, rather surface being part of his bibliography. These

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Speaker 4: other books were never referred to. They've been somehow dug

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Speaker 4: up and found by this blogger named a wanderer down

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Speaker 4: in Argentina. So Fernandez has demonstrated he is completely unsuited

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Speaker 4: to be a pastor of souls because he is doing

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Speaker 4: things that pornographers do.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 4: This is a horrendous production done by a priest, done

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Speaker 4: by someone. And the other scandal, of course, is when

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Speaker 4: these earlier books came out. Pope Francis kind of justified

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Speaker 4: as there were writings as an earlier you know, younger priests,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. These these date, these goal that continue way

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Speaker 4: after the date, So those earlier right, Yeah, he has

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Speaker 4: a habit. You know, if we were doing a profile,

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Speaker 4: a criminal profile about you know, a sex abuser. And

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Speaker 4: I'm not saying he's a sex abuser, but if you

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Speaker 4: saw these literature coming out, and you would say to yourself, well,

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Speaker 4: it's quite clear that the sex abuser got started a

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Speaker 4: long time ago. In his case, I would say the

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Speaker 4: pornographer gets started a long time ago, and he's doing

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Speaker 4: things that nobody should do as a priest. I'm totally disgusted.

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Speaker 4: He should be fired. This is going to be a

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Speaker 4: benchmark for Pope Leo. This man should be fired. He

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Speaker 4: is unsuited.

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Speaker 2: Last week he.

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Speaker 4: Issued a two weeks so, he issued a document which

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Speaker 4: is essentially a veiled attack on the Blessed Virgin Mary's privileges.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're going to talk about that. Okay, Yeah, hold this, Okay,

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Speaker 2: we'll stop. I'll stop your reaction to this.

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Speaker 1: I mean this is Cardinal Fernandez, Cardinal Tucco Fernandez. He

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Speaker 1: is the last word on doctrine in the Vatican. This

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Speaker 1: is a job for those who may not be fully

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Speaker 1: aware or cognizant. This was a job held by Cardinal Rothsinger,

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Speaker 1: who became Pope Benedict and Cardinal Mueller in recent days.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of.

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Speaker 3: This, Well, I wouldn't want to insult the Argentinian people

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Speaker 3: by thinking that they need some instruction and having more

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Speaker 3: sex or better sex. It's remarkable to me it's a

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Speaker 3: layman that a priest thinks he has to encourage people

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Speaker 3: to relax, and you know, it's a bizarre mentality that

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Speaker 3: he has. And you know, he just issued this other

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Speaker 3: document about one flesh, about monogamy, and as I mentioned,

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Speaker 3: I think both of you privately. He quotes a number

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Speaker 3: of poets in there. He quotes Walt Whitman, who was

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Speaker 3: a homosexual, who what a great poet. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: have to say that that's true. He quotes Pablo Neruda,

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Speaker 3: who was married three times. He quotes the French modernist

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Speaker 3: Paul Eloati, was also married three times, So you know,

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Speaker 3: you yeah, I mean, you can find passages in writers

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Speaker 3: like this that kind of give you a boost of

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Speaker 3: what love is like and what marital union is like.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, there's something bizarre about, you know,

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Speaker 3: calling in those kind of troops in the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 3: which has a very rich tradition and doesn't have to

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Speaker 3: resort to this kind of you know, double triple, you

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Speaker 3: know carim shots or whatever these things are. It's just strange.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's bizarre. I mean, were the Song of Songs

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Speaker 1: not available that week?

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Speaker 2: I mean he couldn't quote that. He had to go

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Speaker 2: to Walt Whitman. I mean, it's it is.

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Speaker 1: You read this stuff and his father said between the lines,

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Speaker 1: it is revealing and it's troubling. And why more people

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Speaker 1: aren't disturbed by it, even in Rome, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But the International Mary and Association, Father, this is to

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Speaker 1: tie the bow around this story. The International Mary and Association.

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Speaker 1: These are leading mariologists, those who study the Virgin Mary

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Speaker 1: and the doctrine that has evolved over time, including Scott Hawn,

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Speaker 1: doctor Mark Miravali. They just released a scathing twenty three

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Speaker 1: page critique of the Vatican's recent document on Marion titles

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Speaker 1: written by Cardinal Fernandez. Now they're calling parts of it erroneous,

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Speaker 1: and they say Cardinal Fernandez's document resembles Protestant theology. It

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Speaker 1: discourages uses of the title coredetrics and mediatrix of old graces,

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Speaker 1: titles incidentally, that have been used for centuries.

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Speaker 2: Popes have used those terms.

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Speaker 1: The marriologists say this represents an anti development of doctrine.

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Speaker 2: Father, do they have a point.

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Speaker 4: Uh, they have a point, and in spades. I mean

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Speaker 4: this is This is equivalent to you going to a

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Speaker 4: restaurant and saying, well, this is the restaurant they serve

432
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 4: great steaks, and they come out with some stale bologne

433
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 4: and say this is your dinner. No, this is garbage.

434
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 4: This document should never have been issued. It should be

435
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 4: withdrawn because it's an assault on sacred titles given to

436
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 4: the blessed Virgin Mary, which have been properly understood and

437
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 4: taught by popes and saints and theologians for centuries. There

438
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 4: is no reason to attack these titles other than the

439
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 4: particular interests of the man who wrote it. And we

440
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 4: can see that he's an unbalanced person. He doesn't have

441
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 4: that spiritual maturity that's necessary for dealing with sacred theology.

442
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 4: He is the equivalent of a sociologist pretending to be

443
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 4: a metaphysician, meaning he takes his observations on the world

444
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 4: and says these are eternal truths. That's garbage. This man

445
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 4: should be removed from this office. I salute those theologians

446
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 4: because they do what theologians are supposed to do. Talk

447
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 4: about theology. Yeah, not quote crazy poets, whether they're good

448
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 4: poets or not. That's not a source of revelation. It

449
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 4: certainly is an Aristotylian philosophy or Platonic reflection. It's simply

450
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 4: some guys thought about what he thinks life is. Leave

451
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 4: that elsewhere they wrote their poems, never saying I hope

452
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 4: the Roman pontiff will prove the issuing of the document,

453
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 4: quoting me, this is we're in the world of unreality, Bob.

454
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: The Vatican's argument here, and Cardinal Tucco Fernandez's argument, is

455
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: that these titles require too much explanation, mediatrix of all

456
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: graces and co redemptrics, and they can be misunderstood. But

457
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 1: as these Mariologists point out, so do the trinity and transubstantiation,

458
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: papal infallibility. Why single out these Marian titles. Why do

459
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: you think they decided to issue this at all, Bob?

460
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 3: Now my pay grade, Raymond. It strikes you as a

461
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 3: kind of an unnecessary unforced error. As you know, we

462
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 3: say sports right. Look, the only danger here and then

463
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: the document makes at this point is that you have

464
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 3: to say that those titles depend on Christ as the

465
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 3: unique redeemer. Once you say that, I mean, we just

466
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: celebrated the immaculate conception. Mary is emmaculate conception. Is immaculate

467
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: it because she has Provanian grace. We say, I mean,

468
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 3: this is a technical term that the prior that even

469
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 3: though she is is born prior to Jesus and prior

470
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 3: to his redemption on the Cross, she receives grace in

471
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: advance to be without sin.

472
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: Now one thing you tell me, well let me I'm

473
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: gonna stop you there for one second, because people leaning

474
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: in may not be Catholic, or a lot of Catholics

475
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,360
Speaker 1: misunderstand this. Explain that when they hear a magular conception,

476
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: they think that's the conception of Jesus Christ.

477
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: It is not.

478
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 3: No, no, it's it's Mary being conceived. Mary conceived without sin,

479
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: you know, is a hymns.

480
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 2: So by the power of Christ.

481
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, by the power of Christ. So once we once

482
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,239
Speaker 3: you make that statement, look, you know, there are going

483
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: to be people that misunderstand this. There. You know, Cardinal

484
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: Newman was put off. It took him years to get

485
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 3: over the Catholic emphasis, especially in Italy about the virgin.

486
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 3: You know, but just because some people misunderstand doesn't mean

487
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 3: we can't teach what is the truth about about certain things.

488
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: So look, if somebody wants to use those terms, I myself,

489
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 3: I'm a little careful about using them, and maybe other

490
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: people want to be a little more expansive. But once

491
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: we're clear the Christ is the only mediator in the

492
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: most absolute sense that he is the only source of

493
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 3: the grace of redemption, I think we can relax.

494
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, father, you want to add anything before I move out?

495
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: Well said, I agree.

496
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 4: We should relax all the time, because doctrine brings joy.

497
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: This kind of stuff brings controversy. Where a disgruntled man

498
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: with a powerful office says, all right, let me get

499
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: my pet peeves onto paper and get the Pope to

500
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 4: approve them.

501
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 3: That's what we've got here.

502
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really disturbing, and you know, we've I thought,

503
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm just going to lay this plane. We're all talking here,

504
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: and it's important that we do this and with the

505
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: audience for the last twelve years, we've lived through this

506
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: where these provocative documents and statements off the cuff nonsense

507
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: were uttered and people imagine that that was a shift

508
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: in doctrine or teaching it wasn't here. You have documents, though, Father,

509
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: real documents approved by the Vatican, approved by the Pope.

510
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: And again it's sowing confusion. And we're more than twelve

511
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: years Pope Francis is gone. We're in a new papacy.

512
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: I do wonder if we're just in for a longer

513
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: ride of this, As Bob said, unforced errors and continuing

514
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: confusion and chaos totally created by those who are to

515
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: bring us clarity of doctrine and the joy that accompanies it.

516
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: Well, to use a baseball analogy, it's time to get

517
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 4: some new ballplayers into the bullpen. I mean, we've got

518
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 4: to get rid of some of these old time pitchers

519
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 4: who are throwing these confusing.

520
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: Curve balls at the church. That's it.

521
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 4: New people, get back to doctrine.

522
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: Okay. I want to move on to China.

523
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: Pope Leo confirmed the appointment of a Chinese bishop who

524
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: was quote elected by the Chinese Communist Party just before

525
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: Pope Francis's death. Here, Pope Leo is choosing to continue

526
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: that Vatican deal, that secret deal to cooperate with the

527
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: atheist Chinese Communist government, eventually allowing them to appoint Catholic bishops. Father,

528
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: does the Pope have the authority to hand the selection

529
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: of bishops to this atheist communist regime in this way?

530
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 4: Well, strictly speaking, he can because he has supreme authority

531
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: in the Church. But it certainly isn't wise. And what

532
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 4: we're seeing here, said to say, is a typical communist

533
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 4: way of acting. When and Bob's analyzes in his books,

534
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 4: when the Communists approach Christians who have a certain degree

535
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 4: of power in their society, they try to put him

536
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 4: in a cage. They try to control them. How do

537
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 4: you control the Vatican? They couldn't do it under John

538
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 4: Paul the Second, couldn't do it under Benedict. Pope Francis

539
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 4: shows up says, I want to go to China one

540
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 4: day and visit. So say, okay, great, let's make a deal.

541
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: Don't publish the deal. The deal has to do with power. Essentially,

542
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: it's all about who's in charge. And then guess what,

543
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 4: as soon as the deals signed, then the Chinese start

544
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 4: ignoring it. But since the deal has never been made public,

545
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: knowing outside of the Vatican can call him on it,

546
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 4: we suspect what's going going wrong. The little the Vatican

547
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 4: tells us is well, we regret it when they act

548
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 4: out of the spirit of the agreement. Well, guess what,

549
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 4: that's what they've been doing from the start. This man

550
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 4: who has made the bishop, by the way, was named

551
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 4: when Pope Francis was deceased by the Chinese party, so

552
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 4: therefore there couldn't have been that papal agreement to it.

553
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 4: The details here are so horrific. This is a self

554
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 4: inflicted wound, which is victimizing Chinese persecuted Catholics. You know

555
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 4: what they do in China. If you're under eighteen, you

556
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 4: can't walk into a Catholic church, and if you do,

557
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 4: the priest will get arrested. Is this the kind of

558
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 4: law that is implicitly agreed to in that agreement, that

559
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 4: the Chinese of the power to do that. The Vatican

560
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 4: has published a degreement, call the Chinese out and renounce

561
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,239
Speaker 4: it when they refuse to comply with it.

562
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's bob.

563
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: This is a This is a deep wound because these

564
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: Chinese Catholics are repeat heatedly victimized over this thing, with

565
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: the complicity it seems of the Vatican. I mean, we

566
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: also have to say there were underground Catholic bishops who

567
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: were loyal to the pope, loyal to Rome for decades,

568
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: living in house arrests, who've just vanished to make way

569
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: through these new apparatics that the Chinese now call Bishop whoever,

570
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: And the Vatican says that's a great thing.

571
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: Yes, we approved the new bishop.

572
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: Why why are they handing martyrs over without a word.

573
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's fear, you know. I mean we

574
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 3: talked to earlier about there's a fear of the Muslims,

575
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: and I think that there's a fear of the Chinese

576
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 3: here too. I'm sorry to say this, but I think

577
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 3: that that's part of what the Vatican, the Vatican Secretary

578
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 3: of State has been been thinking all along here. I mean,

579
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 3: you have to be robust the way John Paul a

580
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: second was against Communist threats, and just stand up to

581
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: him and then you know, other people follow you and

582
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 3: eventually we can know what happened to the Soviet Union. Yeah,

583
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 3: because partly because of John Paul's just strength in opposing communism.

584
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 3: But this Chinese appointment is bizarre. I mean, as we

585
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: know this, the new bishop who's there was appointed in

586
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 3: the interregnum, as Father says, between the two popes and

587
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 3: the guy who was there has kind of disappeared. No

588
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 3: one knows where he is, although we hear these statements

589
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 3: that sound like he's the Manchurian candidate. He's saying, yes,

590
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: oh yeah, the church try to be Citicized, which means

591
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 3: made into a Chinese kind of a slavery of the church.

592
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: And at the same time the Vatican is saying, well this,

593
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: you know, there's a good sign here because he's been

594
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: recognized as the emeritus bishop. I think he was of Shanghai. Yes,

595
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 3: so they're saying that since they recognized him and as emeritus,

596
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: it means that they recognized that he was a legitimate

597
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: bishop before. I mean to me that this is this

598
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 3: is really clutching its straws and trying to find that

599
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 3: the most minute signs of positive signs of something going right.

600
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 3: The large question here is are we going to really

601
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: con you to go along with this and let those

602
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 3: probably millions of Chinese Catholics just go down to drain,

603
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: or are we going to do something more prophetic. It

604
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 3: may cause some fireworks, but after all, you know, there's

605
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 3: a maran old bishop. I quite him in one of

606
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: my books. He says, when you preach the gospel. You

607
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 3: should expect it's dynamite, and you should expect there to

608
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 3: be some explosions. I think we've got to find that

609
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 3: brave spirit of evangelization again. And I'm not going to

610
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 3: be paying the price. I mean other people are going

611
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 3: to be paying it. But I think that that's the

612
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: truth of what the church needs to do.

613
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we as a church should be praying with

614
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: them and for them, Bob, and unified in that prayer, because,

615
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: as John Paul demonstrated, that prayer has power to move

616
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: and shift the world in ways nobody could have anticipated.

617
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: And those Chinese Catholics, as we see in Cardinal Zen

618
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: and Jimmy Lai and so many others that we've met,

619
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: they have this sturdy faith.

620
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 2: They're willing to go out and stand for their faith.

621
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: It's the leadership that, for whatever reason, is unwilling to

622
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: confront it stand with them. It's heartbreaking. It's just heartbreaking.

623
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: And you should see the emails. I get why are

624
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: they doing this? Why isn't the pope speaking out?

625
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: I don't know. I wish I had answers too, but

626
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: we do need to see that deal.

627
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: I agree with both of you on that, Bob, Cardinal

628
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: Timothy Dolan has announced that the Archdiocese of New York

629
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: will be raising three hundred million dollars to negotiate a

630
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: global settlement for the archdiocese. Roughly, that's thirteen hundred people

631
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: claiming sexual abuse by priests and lay members over a

632
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: long period of time from the forties on, and they're

633
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: choosing mediation over bankruptcy. The Archdiocese of Los Angeles settlement

634
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: was eight hundred and eighty million dollars. How much longer

635
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: can this go on, Bob? And how do the bishops

636
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: reassure the people remaining in the pews?

637
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: I'll put it that way.

638
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: Look, I just don't know what the answer for this.

639
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 3: I think that there is injustice actually in the way

640
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: these awards are being made. There was an individual, bishops

641
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: or priests or whatnot, who covered somebody up. I can see,

642
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: you know, I can see prosecuting them, but prosecuting the

643
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 3: church as an institution. I just don't get this. I mean,

644
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 3: it's like saying that if your local schools system had

645
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 3: some people who went off the reservation and had sex

646
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 3: with children, that the entire school system is somehow liable

647
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 3: for that, and it's not the specific people who did it,

648
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 3: or there's the people who might have covered it up.

649
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 3: It's these huge paths, and of course the Church is

650
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: not in most places, is not exactly in strong financial situations.

651
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 3: I mean, we're all in a situation where the economy

652
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: is uncertain and which we hope we can kind of

653
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 3: work our way through these things. And lots of people

654
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,959
Speaker 3: have moved out of certain place parishes and whatnot. So look,

655
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: this is a spectacular amount of money. I don't know

656
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 3: how we're going to dig ourselves out of this way

657
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: of approaching it. I know some priests who have had

658
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 3: to handle these negotiations, and they're puzzled about it as well.

659
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: I mean, they make the best deals that they can,

660
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: but I guess these large payouts are going to be

661
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 3: They're going to be with us through the future.

662
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: Wow, the wages of sin death death in many ways.

663
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: The German Bishop's Conference Father released a forty eight page

664
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 1: document called Created, Redeemed, and Loved. It tells Catholic schools

665
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: to quote recognize the diversity of sexual identities and let

666
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: students form their own moral judgments on disputed Church teachings

667
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: about sexuality. Disputed would mean they disagree with the Church

668
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 1: teaching morality. Only three German bishops publicly opposed this plan. Father,

669
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 1: one of those bishops say the document desacrilzes the Christian

670
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: understanding of the human person and warns it could lead

671
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: to different teaching about revelation and the sacraments and the Church.

672
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 4: Your thoughts, Yeah, this is a wholesale rejection of Catholic doctrine,

673
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 4: and it's being brought to us courtesy of the shepherds.

674
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 4: So this is the crisis that we're facing in Germany.

675
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 4: The Holy See has to stop the German hierarchy from

676
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 4: doing this, and if the German hierarchy won't submit, the

677
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: Pope has to remove them and replace them with bishops

678
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 4: who believe in the Creed and who take the Gospel

679
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 4: and Catholic doctrine as the only and sole reference for

680
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 4: their pronouncements, not sociology, not political correctness, not the nonsense

681
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 4: of the gender ideology. The German bishops are in total

682
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,399
Speaker 4: collapse over this because they've embraced an alien set of ideas.

683
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 4: And I watched the Holy See. I've been following this

684
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 4: as we all have for a number of years. The

685
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 4: Holy See is too tentative. The Holy See is suggesting things.

686
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 4: They're saying, don't do this, so then the Germans do

687
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 4: it in a new way. This is a wholesale hijacking

688
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 4: of the people of God in Germany by a set

689
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 4: of very liberal and politically correct bishops. So the solution

690
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 4: is not trying to argue the German bishops out of

691
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 4: it that they're beyond that they've embraced a false notion

692
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 4: of what it means to be a human being. I'm

693
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 4: embarrassed that bishop would issue a document which so plainly

694
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 4: contradicts what the Church is taught. But that's what's happened here.

695
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 4: So in the end, you know, Peter's authority was given

696
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 4: to him to guide the sheep, the sheep and the

697
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 4: other shepherds precisely to avoid shepherds taking the sheep over

698
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 4: the cliff, which is what they're doing here in Germany.

699
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right about the tentativeness. No matter where you turn,

700
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, there's this furtive, threating, worried approach to the

701
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: whole world. And it's the big issues facing the Church Islam,

702
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 1: the China, persecution of Christians, and now basic doctrine in

703
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,800
Speaker 1: Europe under attack as Saale and here in the United

704
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: States liturgy, the old Right under attack, and for whatever reason,

705
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: all of those things, Rome is either muted or silent.

706
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: On one hope, in the day ahead, maybe this Senate

707
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: happening of a real Senate at the top of January,

708
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: where all the cardinals come together, maybe that will reset

709
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: and the Pope will get the message and the Vatican

710
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: will as well. Before we go, I want to return

711
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: to the United States, Bob, I want your reaction to

712
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: this story from Virginia, where you live. Democrat Governor elect

713
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: Abigail Spanberger, who calls herself a moderate and a united

714
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: has just nominated a man named Stanley Meador as Virginia's

715
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: next Secretary of Public Safety and Homeland Security. Now, Medor

716
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: was the special agent in charge of the Richmond FBI office.

717
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: You might remember that office because back in twenty twenty three,

718
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: they produced that memo targeting quote radical traditionalist Catholics calling

719
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: for the infiltration of Latin mass parishes. They relied on

720
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: the Southern poverty law centers hate group designations. Well, that

721
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: memo reached over one thousand FBI employees nationwide before it

722
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: was leak and retracted. Bob, what signal does that appointment

723
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: send to you and to those who share the state

724
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: with you.

725
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I live in the just across the

726
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 3: river from Washington, d C. In northern Virginia, which is

727
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 3: very much a very democratic area, and in some ways

728
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 3: it doesn't surprise me, but this state overall was often

729
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 3: called a purple state. We've had a Republican, a Republican

730
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 3: governor who is very very good, and our governor, Alex Baandberger,

731
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 3: has actually been a defender, a silent defender of a

732
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 3: guy who talked about murdering not only his opposition for

733
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: attorney general, but his family and his children and whatnot.

734
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 3: She refused to repudiate him. She's a radical, and I'm

735
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: sorry to say, I think a kind of a stealth candidate,

736
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 3: one of those radical Democrats that we see more openly

737
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 3: in other states. But here to choose for your security leader,

738
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 3: a person whose record is tainted by obvious prejudice against Catholics,

739
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 3: and there are a lot of Catholics in Virginia. By

740
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: the way, our diocese in Arlington is a very strong

741
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 3: and very good diocese. Yeah, it's shocking to me, and

742
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 3: it's offensive to me as a long time now Virginia

743
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 3: and a Catholic. I'm sorry she did this, and I regret.

744
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 3: I don't think we're going to see very much pushback

745
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 3: in Richmond, which has really gone very much democratic in

746
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: the most recent elections.

747
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: Father after the infamous memo became public, that memo where

748
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: or Maydor, who's the FBI former FBI agent in question,

749
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: he actually met with Bishop Barry nest Out of Richmond

750
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: to quote end relationships with the Catholic community. The Richmond

751
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: Diocese just put out a rather mild statement saying they

752
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: wish him well and look forward to a good relationship,

753
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: a working relationship.

754
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 2: Is that enough?

755
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 3: I don't think so.

756
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 4: I mean, can you imagine if he had written a

757
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 4: similar memo to try and infiltrate the Presbyterians, accusing them

758
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 4: of being ultraliberal and perhaps disloyal to America because of

759
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 4: their activities going on in their churches. You don't send

760
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 4: FBI agents into religious congregations with this vague assertion that

761
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 4: they were a threat to national security. This was horrendous,

762
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 4: and by the way, we should note the FBI was

763
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 4: found out to have blied about the extent to which

764
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 4: this activity was known by headquarters and other agencies. So

765
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 4: the FBI was ashamed of what they were doing and

766
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 4: tried to hide it and then had to admit it

767
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 4: when this stuff came out in congressional hearings. I don't

768
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 4: follow this man particularly closely, but I hope he would

769
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 4: issue a clear statement expressing true contrition and apology for

770
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 4: targeting religious people who were targeted in a society which

771
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 4: guarantees religious liberty. The FBI has become discredited, and this

772
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 4: is something that's a topic for another day, but when

773
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 4: you go after religious people, you are doing something per

774
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 4: foundly Unamerican and unjust.

775
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and father and Bob, if there was something happening

776
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: in Latin Masstic parishes, I mean, if they were going

777
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: out in fire bombing people or you know, destroying religious

778
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: celebrations or let's say Christmas pageants or lighting of Christmas trees,

779
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: you might say, well, they deserve.

780
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 2: To be monitored a little bit. That's not happening. I'll

781
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 2: give you the last word, Bob. Yeah.

782
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 3: I mean, one doesn't want to be too partisan about this,

783
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: but I think we noticed in the Biden administration that

784
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: there was this kind of allergy towards this more conservative Catholicism,

785
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: identifying it with Trump and with the Republicans and whatnot.

786
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: So it's not a surprise in a way that somebody

787
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 3: of these kind of extreme views. And you know, I

788
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 3: agree with Father. I hope that this guy makes a

789
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 3: clear statement about what's going on. But I think in

790
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 3: his heart of hearts, he probably believes this. I mean,

791
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 3: the outrageousness of that memo that was center around in

792
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 3: the United States of America. And let's say they by

793
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 3: the way, in the past, most of the FBI was

794
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 3: made up of ethnic Catholics, I write, you know, Italian

795
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 3: and et cetera. I mean, in the past, people would

796
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 3: have just laughed as out of court in a second.

797
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,760
Speaker 3: But the fact that that had legs inside a serious

798
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: law enforcement agency in the United States of America, God

799
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: help us.

800
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: Well, Posse, we will leave it there. I'm grateful to

801
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: you all as always.

802
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: And Father, even with your little Rudolph the red nose,

803
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: reinty or a cold you did a good job. Sounded

804
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 1: a little bit like Rudolph at the beginning, but you

805
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: pulled it off.

806
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 2: Well.

807
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 4: I'll be out there on the twenty fourth, so that's.

808
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: Right, but leave me. You've got more to do than

809
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: Santa that week. I know that's a rough liturgical skickle.

810
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 1: But if you want more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse,

811
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or the

812
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 1: podcast wherever you get yours on behalf of Robert Royal,

813
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: Father Gerald Murray.

814
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: Until the Posse rides again, stay the course, follow the

815
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: light in an Arroyo. We'll see you next up.

816
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with Defeat Studios and

817
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, and is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple wherever

818
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts,