WEBVTT - Everybody Burns Out Eventually. Here’s How You Can Fight It 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:06.640 Ug another cold open. I am so over this, I 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:10.600 am so burnt out. This week on game Plan, we're 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:13.560 talking about burnout, how it happens and how we can 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:29.080 get over it. Hi, I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm Francesco Weavie, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.160 And this week on game Plan, we are talking about 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:35.400 burnout and I agree with your sentiment very ug. Well. Yeah, 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.239 so when we talk about burnout, everyone everyone uses the 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.720 expression now and then I'm so burnt out right, Yeah, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:43.520 like I say it to my friends, I'm so burned 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.239 out of this thing. But it's actually a specific thing 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:50.160 with a history and a meaning. There was this great 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:53.080 episode of Planet Money that went into the history of 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.520 burnout that talked about this man, Herbert Freudenberger, who coined 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.800 the term. Okay, so what is it if it's not 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.440 this general term that we all use. According to him, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.880 it's a response to stress and frustration and a demand 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.800 on yourself that you feel like you can't ever meet, 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:12.920 like a perfectionism and a drive, and you feel like 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.080 you're you can't get there, so you feel burnt out. 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:17.839 And there are you were saying, there are certain professions 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.560 that are more prone to burn out. I think doctors 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.560 are really prone to burnout. There was a business Seek 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.680 article from a few years ago about doctor burnout and 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:29.880 the dangers of it, because obviously you don't want like 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.680 a surgeon, you don't want out. You don't want to 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:34.600 burntout doctor. No. No, there's a fifty percent chance then 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:37.480 a doctor is burnt out, which is ten percent higher 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:40.959 than the general working population. That's terrifying. And you can 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.440 see why, Like they're in a high stress field and 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:45.280 they want, you know, they always want to do the 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.880 best for their patients ideally, right. It's associated with not 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:50.680 only people who work hard, but people who are in 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.120 fields where they work a lot with people, right, and 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:57.520 have kind of a lot of emotional investment in their job. Yeah. 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:01.840 Another example in that Planet Many episode was customer service workers. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.160 I guess I know there's a very high turnover rate 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:06.920 at call centers because it's a really high stress job 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:08.920 and you're failing you right, Your whole job is just 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:13.960 to hear people's file and anger at you. And if 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.440 you think about it's kind of these jobs where you 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.000 can't ever do it perfectly. There's always going to be 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.160 somebody who's mad at the customer service person. There's always 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.120 going to be a problem and with a patient. It's 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.760 not just like you know, you're filling out some spreadsheet 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.000 and you do it and you're done and yeah, you finished. 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.120 Although that's a nice segue into the more general use 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.960 of the term, because you can feel burned out in 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.560 in any kind of job, right Like, you don't have 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.880 to be a humanitarian on the front lines or service 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.680 employee who's dealing with people all day. You can you 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.240 can get burnt out of that spreadsheet job. Is there 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:49.680 something you'd like to share with that ever in a 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:53.640 moment you felt burnt out? I have. I definitely feel 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.079 like I usually just like hit a point in time 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.720 after being at any job for about like two years 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.080 where I hit some kind of wall and I start 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.040 to feel a little burnt out, even if the job 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:07.919 hasn't changed that much. I think, especially if the job 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.360 hasn't changed that much, and then you know, you either 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.880 push through it or you kind of re evaluate whether 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.680 that's the job for you. But it does seem to 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.560 be like a creeping thing that happens to me over time. 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:21.639 I don't know, do you do you ever feel burnt out? 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.840 So I think people who work in online media, like 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.640 we do do get burnt out pretty easily because the 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.760 Internet is so all consuming and stressful and you feel 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:32.760 like there's always a news story that you have to 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:36.880 be responding to and the internet doesn't sleep. Yeah, it's 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.480 very demanding, and you're you're like only as good as 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.080 your last I mean as a reporter or an editor, 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:43.800 you're kind of only as good as your last story, 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.520 the last thing that you produced, and so it's not 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.760 like you can ever really rest on your your laurels. Yeah. 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.040 I felt the most burnt out in my first writing job, 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.720 which was one of those like NonStop blogging jobs. Um, 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.200 that was just like you wrote sex posts today and 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.320 went home and did it all over again, and that 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:05.840 seemed unsustainable. Yeah, it's really hard, And I think that 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.680 the thing about burnout is that it's to me, it's 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.240 like a feeling. You know, it can lead to other 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.920 things that can lead to you not being as good 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:15.680 at your job, or you're not trying as hard, or 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:17.640 you know, because that lack, you know, you can feel 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.520 less committed to it and then less inclined to try 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:22.680 really hard at it. But it starts as just like 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.359 kind of like a nagging feeling in the in the 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.240 back of your mind where you used to be more 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.799 excited to get up in the morning and go to work, 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.240 and then it slowly builds up, Like the longer you 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:36.159 go without dealing with it, the more it's likely to 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.520 actually affect your work. And that's the problem, right, Like 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.240 the problem with the doctor burnout, for example, is you know, 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.080 then they make more mistakes and nobody wants to be 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:46.880 in that position. But yeah, and then I want to 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:51.400 turn out doctor or airline pilot. No, but and then 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.360 like the stakes are lower for someone like us, but yeah, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.080 then I start writing less. My stories are not as 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.880 good ideas or anybody in any office. You know. There's 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:03.720 the this term that hr people love engagement, which I 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.960 hate that term, but yeah, it's it's a buzzy word 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.520 for just like how emotionally invested in your job you are, 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:12.440 and the more people are engaged, the better companies tend 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.760 to do. So I imagine if you're burnt out, your 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.400 engagement is pretty low. Right, Engagement is important, and so 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.400 is not doing more than you can handle doing. And 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.760 sometimes it's really hard at jobs because so many demands 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:27.240 are put on you. But then there's like a type 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:29.760 of person that puts a lot of demands on themselves 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.000 and ends up burnt out. And it's actually what our 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.359 guest today has written extensively about and done tons of 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.240 research on. Yeah. So, Adam Grant as our guest today, 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.839 and he is a wark and professor and the author 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:45.039 of a super popular book from a few years ago, 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.560 Give and Take and and It. He talks about the 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.919 two general types of people at work, the givers and 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.800 the takers. The givers tend to be better workers and 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.760 better for companies. And you can imagine they're the type 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.719 of people who give in an office, Like you said, 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.760 they might be prone to burn out because they overextend themselves. 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.640 And that is what Adam has done follow up research 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:13.480 on that we are going to talk about with him today. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:19.080 Thanks for joining us, Adam, Thank you for having me. Yeah. So, 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:23.120 you've found that givers tend to be better workers than takers. 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:25.640 But after you published your book, you've got a lot 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.560 of feedback from givers who suggested it wasn't that simple. 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.039 Can you tell us some of the things that you 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:33.360 learned from the people who reached out to you. Yeah, 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.400 you know, it's it's funny because I guess at some 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.160 level it's an indication that people don't always read a 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.320 book from start to finish. Oh yeah, we're familiar with 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.760 that phenomenon. Never happened to anyone here, right, of course, 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:46.640 we read your book from start to finish, but others 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.040 other people do that. Um. You know, it was funny 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.120 because I originally read the book, you know, with this 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.960 paradox as the as the hook, and I said, look, 0:06:57.040 --> 0:07:00.359 you know, if you compare givers and takers, and you know, 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.200 most people falling somewhere in the middle, as as matchers saying, 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.080 you know, I try to trade favors evenly, and I'll 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.880 do something for you if you do something for me. Um. 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.920 What I'd found across studying engineers and salespeople and medical 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:16.080 students was that the givers were actually the worst performers 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:19.600 and the best performers, and they tended to be overrepresented 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:23.680 on both extremes. And I started the book with that paradox, 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.840 and then, you know, originally had written the second chapter 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.160 about why so many givers burn out? And the consistent 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.800 feedback then was that it's that people read to be 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.320 inspired and uplifted, and they really don't want to open 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:39.720 a book talking about burnout. So I moved it to 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.480 chapter six, and then a bunch of people didn't read 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.360 chapter six, which was all about the differences between you know, 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.559 why some givers burn out and others are on fire. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.679 So when that feedback came in, I was like, please 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.120 skip ahead a few chapters, so can you tell us 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.200 why givers burnout? I think there are three systematic mistakes 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.880 that the givers make, and this is where my thinking 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.120 scotten refined quite a bit since writing the book. So 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.160 if I had been clear about it, then I would 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.520 have said, basically, the differences are about who you help, 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.400 how you help, and when you help. So what we 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.680 see with with failed givers is that they want to 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.160 be generous and they end up helping all the people 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.800 all the time, with all the requests, which is a 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.480 great way to exhaust yourself completely right. You never have 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.480 time to get any of your own work done. You're overextended. 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.520 As you start helping, you get a reputation for being 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.600 a nice person, and then pretty soon no goodtied goes unpunished. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.440 And so what we see with successful givers is that 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.640 they make thoughtful choices about who they want to help. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.800 So they say, look, you know, I'm not gonna help 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:48.520 everybody equally. There are takers out there, and they're willing 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.520 to take as much as I'm willing to give, regardless 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.520 of whether that's fair. So if somebody has a history 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:57.000 or reputation of selfish behavior, I'm going to be more 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.000 cautious with them and reserve. You know, my biggest act 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.439 of generosity for people who are generous are fair themselves. 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:06.640 And that's kind of the first distinction that's critical, right, 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.840 don't help everyone equally. I was curious if it matters, 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:12.600 because it sounds like, you know, one of the key 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:16.240 things is deciding whom you want to give to. Um. 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.640 Does it matter why you give? Like, does it matter 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:22.440 if you're doing it for totally altruistic reasons, if you 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.040 just love the idea of helping other people, or if 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.560 you're if you're doing it like, will you be more 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.280 burnt out if you're giving for one reason versus another? Yeah? 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.280 So this actually is a nice segue to the second factor. 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.120 So the people who give out of a sense of 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.680 obligation or out of a sense of altruism are much 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.480 more likely to burn out than the ones who who 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.280 give because they enjoy it and because they care about 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.920 the people that they're trying to help. And so, you know, 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:52.760 I think that that altruism turns out to be a 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.439 huge mistake because people just end up sacrificing themselves for 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.440 others and they say, yeah, you know, I realized that 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:01.720 this might hurt me, but it just it helps other 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:05.720 people so much. And the sad reality is that the 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.480 more altruistically you give, the less you're able to give, 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.120 because you end up exhausting yourself. And the people who 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.960 gave the most consistently were the ones who said, look, 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:18.880 I'm gonna zoom in on the two or three ways 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:21.560 of helping that I enjoy an excel ad so that 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.400 giving becomes more energizing than exhausting, but also so that 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:27.400 I'm making a unique contribution and I'm helping in a 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.280 way that's it's meaningful and effective relative to my knowledge 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.720 and skills. And when they did that, they were able 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.600 to sustain their energy, they had more to give, they 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.240 gave in ways that had a bigger impact, and they 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.880 also had a different reputation because instead of being known 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.240 as a jack of all trades, somebody that you could 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.120 bother any time, they got known as somebody who had 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.320 really specific expertise, and you only wanted to go to 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.400 them when you were seeking something that they could offer 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.640 that was really valuable. In a regular work environment, it 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.080 seems like you can get pigeonholed. And it's not even 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.120 necessarily about selfness. Listen, like, if people realize that you're 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.240 good at something, they're going to ask you to do 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.280 more of that thing that you're good at, and that 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.240 might not be your favorite thing to do. So how 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.280 can people in their jobs make their jobs more about 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.200 doing what they want to do and there thereby steer 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.240 themselves away from burnout? But I think the key is 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.480 to figure out the overlap between what you enjoyed giving 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.480 and what other people need. And it's not always the 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.520 first set of request that you get right. So you know, 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.600 especially if you look at the data, women are particularly 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:37.320 likely to get stuck with the office, housework, the taking notes, 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:42.160 the planning meetings. And the sad reality of that is 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.800 that I don't know very many people who enjoy doing 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:47.640 that work. But when you're new and you come in 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:49.840 and you know maybe you're the lowest status or most 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.319 junior person in the group, you know that that has 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.160 tense to fall to you and then people find that 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.839 you're organized and meticulous, and then you just get stuck 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:59.040 with it. Right. There's also like a sense of obligation 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.800 to sometimes when you see something isn't being organized, well, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.360 you just want to go in and fix it. And 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:05.880 then everyone's like, oh, that person is the organizer. But 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.079 it could just be that kind of that kind of 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.559 obligatory selflessness you were talking about that you you kind 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.160 of want to avoid. Yeah, I think that there there 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:15.800 are a few ways to try to get around that. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.480 One is it's always easier to say no when you 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.280 have another offer to make, right, So if you if 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.120 you follow Adam's lead. You know, I see this really 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.839 frequently in my own daily inbox, which is, you know, 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:30.240 people will reach out all the time for career advice 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.160 and I'll write back and say, look, I don't I 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:34.719 don't even feel comfortable giving advice to people that I know. 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.000 And you know, I think that if you're interested in help, 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:40.960 here are the three ways that I feel like I 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.280 have something to offer. And if you have that list, 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.079 handy people respond pretty favorably, you know, because because you're 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.679 not being rude, you're not being unwilling to help, You're 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.920 just trying to redirect what you have to add. I 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.600 think a second thing you can do is you can 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:57.240 go to the people that you've helped in the past 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.480 and ask them to pay it forward. So you know, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.640 all too often we end up, you know, if you, 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:05.480 let's say you get known as the organizer, you end up, 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.360 you know, doing that for a bunch of people, and 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.240 then you get more and more of those requests piling up. Well, 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:11.839 the first thing you should do is you should go 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.160 to the people that you've helped organize things in the past, 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:17.080 and you should ask them then if you know, if 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.680 they're willing to step up and pay it back, if not, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.800 pay it forward. Um. I think maybe a third thing 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.760 that that I would like to see more people do 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.040 is when requests come in, you should start looking at 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.040 at trying to batch them together. So you might have 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.720 seven or eight people ask for your insight on the 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.000 same topic, and instead of having one on one conversations 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:40.880 with each of them, you should invite them all to 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.079 lunch and answer all their questions. And not only are 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.960 you then having the conversation once as opposed to many times, 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.319 you're also connecting them together and trying to build a 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.400 community of people who are interested in, you know, in 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.719 tackling the same problem which can help them even more. 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.120 One thing that interested me from your work is that 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.760 you talk about how sometimes that type of giving that 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.080 we like to do and that we do a lot of, 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.360 can actually lead to bad outcomes. And you did a 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.160 study on that with teachers. Can you get into that 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.480 so short version of the story is Red Reveilly and 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.840 I did this study with that with a group of 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:19.400 teachers across the United States where we served them on 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.480 how selfless they were. And the general assumption and teaching 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.200 is the more selfless, the better, right, That's that's what 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.520 this job is all about. You're supposed to put your 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:32.280 students first. It's all about service, and you're there to 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.600 make a difference. And yet we found that of course, 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:40.000 you know, most teachers are givers, they're passionate about helping 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.240 and they care a lot about the success their students. 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.960 But the more selfless they were, the worst their students 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.760 did unstandardized achievement test and that was particularly true for 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.200 teachers whose students had struggled the previous year. So what 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.800 happens is, you know, when when teachers are really motivated 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.000 to help students um And it's especially when there's students 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.000 have been you know, underperforming, they end up doubling down 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.160 and saying, I will do whatever it takes to make 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.640 students successful and to help them solve their problems. And 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.360 that means that they do all of this one on 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.840 one helping and firefighting. Sometimes they end up helping students 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.920 who aren't even in their classes. Sometimes you know, they're 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.560 burning the midnight oil handling requests from you know, administration, 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.600 and that takes away from time that they could invest 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:28.600 in energy they could put into improving their lesson plans 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.720 and helping their students as a group. And yeah, the 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:35.320 sad reality of that is when we track what happens 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:37.920 to the teachers, then they're less engaged in their everyday 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.160 classroom work when coaches come in to observe them and 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.240 evaluate them and give them feedback. And so, you know, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.440 I think that that this is how so many people 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.640 justify it being generous, right is well, you know, but 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.800 the benefits to you know, to my students outweigh the 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.600 cost to me or the contributions that I make to 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.440 the school, you know, are are worth all the sacrifices 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.360 I'm making and our data show that's not true. Actually, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.640 that that if you can set some boundaries right and 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.840 sort of take the airplane analogy as far as it 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.040 can be stretched and say, look, if you can take 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.120 the advice we're always given on an airplane seriously and 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.560 secure your oxygen masks before helping others, you feel like 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.840 you're contributing less, but you're actually doing more good that way. 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.040 The teachers who were able to put their own lessons 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:28.040 plans first, who focused primarily on making sure that their 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.080 students as a group were able to learn everything they 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.480 needed to know, we're less likely to burn out, more 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.000 likely to stay engaged, and had a greater impact that way. 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:37.640 And I think that's a lesson we can probably all 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.960 apply to our work lives. Yeah. Sometimes I think we 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.240 like doing the things that make us burn out. I 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.080 know I do, like I'm think, and then I convince 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:49.920 myself that it's good for my job. But I think 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.160 your research is really interesting to show us that it's 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.680 it's not the best way to get your work done always. Yeah, 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.560 And I think I think for most people that just 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.600 means taking a step back and saying, you know, what 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.000 impact to my trying to have and then making sure 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.360 that I'm not just doing the things that I enjoy, 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:08.960 uh that you know that divert from that. That's that's 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:12.439 another trap that we see failed givers running into, is 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.480 they forget to think about organizational goals and about who 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.959 they're really trying to help um. And you know, if 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:22.160 if you make sure that what you enjoy is better 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:25.359 aligned with what you're actually trying to accomplish, it becomes 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.800 much more sustainable that way. One thing I'm curious about, 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:30.879 and I don't know if your research has really gotten 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.960 at this that much, but can you It seems to 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.240 me that burnout is something that most people experience at 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.520 some point or another in their career to some extent. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.280 And I wonder if you can still get burnt out 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.320 even if you do make all the right choices about 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.879 how to allocate your time and whom to help and 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.159 not to help, Like, is there an element of burnout 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:52.879 that just has to do with time? Like you do 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.960 something long enough and you start to feel burnt out? Yeah? 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.760 I think so, I think it depends. Let me let 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:02.760 me think about actually what the what the data would 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:07.600 say about this? So in general, people don't burn out 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.879 because they're giving too much. Time wise, they tend to 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:12.800 burn out when they feel like they're giving a lot, 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:16.399 but they don't think it's having an impact. So I 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.840 saw this, for example, with with fundraising callers, people who 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.840 are trying to raise money for their university. So this 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:26.280 is you know, not the easiest or most enjoyable job 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.320 for for a typical fundraiser, but it is really meaningful. 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:35.520 And the consistent finding was that fundraisers didn't know where 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:38.080 the money they were raising actually went, and they had 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.280 no sense of what good they were doing, and so 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.159 they were dropping like flies. And I found in a 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.439 series of experiments that if we just connected them to 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.120 one scholarship student who benefited from their work and got 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.280 to see, you know, here's where this money is really 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:55.159 making a difference, there was a dramatic spike in their motivation. 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.879 So we saw a hundred forty increase in weekly minutes 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.800 on the phone and a hundred increase in weekly money 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:07.359 raised caller by caller, And you know, in some ways 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.400 you could say they were already making all the right choices. 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:11.919 They were making the calls they were supposed to do, 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:14.480 they were applying the strategies that were most effective for 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.399 collect connecting with alumni, but they just didn't feel like 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.159 they were able to connect the dots and answer the 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.120 question of you know, why is this important and how 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:25.879 is this work really going to influence other people's lives? 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.119 And once they saw that, you know, it's not like 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.280 they they actually approached their calls differently. It was just 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.639 that they were able to think about the purpose of 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.560 their work differently. That instead of harassing alumni, now they're 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:40.800 getting on the phone and thinking about this is making 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:44.560 scholarships possible for students who are in need. And yeah, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:46.600 I think that's that's a shift that that applies to 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.119 so many different jobs, right, Yeah, that's that seems like 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.200 you could make that work for you in almost anything, 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.840 Like even if you don't have the data to prove 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.320 that what you're doing as a direct effect, you can 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.120 just sort reframe your thinking even a little bit too 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.119 make your day to day job connect to some larger cause. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.919 If you just remind yourself of that, it might help 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.720 with burnout. Yeah. That was actually a follow up experiment 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:12.760 that Jane Dutton and I did. We had people just 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:17.160 keep a journal for four days, fifteen minutes a day 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:20.560