WEBVTT - New Study: The Health Impacts of the Coal-to-Gas Transition

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<v Speaker 1>A news study out from researchers at Harvard University this

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<v Speaker 1>week looked at an under explored component of energy transition,

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<v Speaker 1>air pollution. For years, when researchers, activists, or politicians talked

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<v Speaker 1>about moving from coal to natural gas, they focused on

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<v Speaker 1>greenhouse gas emissions and specifically carbon dioxide emissions, which are

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<v Speaker 1>lower for gas than coal. Over the past five years

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<v Speaker 1>or so, we've gotten plenty of studies around that other

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<v Speaker 1>greenhouse gas, methane, and how the transition to gas has

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<v Speaker 1>generated a massive amount of it, But we haven't heard

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<v Speaker 1>much about air pollution, so researchers at Harvard's School of

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<v Speaker 1>Public Health turn their attention there. The good news is

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<v Speaker 1>that overall energy use is less of a contributor to

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<v Speaker 1>air pollution than it was when everything was coal fired.

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<v Speaker 1>The bad news is that it's still a primary contributor,

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<v Speaker 1>and that gas and biomass are the key culprits. In

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<v Speaker 1>other words, once again, we're finding out that these bridges

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<v Speaker 1>to clean energy have only really served to impede progress

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<v Speaker 1>and perpetuate the same old problems. Two of the studies authors,

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Bonacore and Parishar Salimifhard, joined me to discuss their findings.

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<v Speaker 1>That conversation coming up after this quick break you're listening

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<v Speaker 1>to drill. I'm Amy Westervelt. I'm really interested in this paper,

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<v Speaker 1>and I wanted to kind of start with maybe having

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<v Speaker 1>you both introduce yourselves and then tell me a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about what prompted you to look into this in

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<v Speaker 1>the first place.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's start. I guess I'm Jonathan Buincorr. I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>research scientist at the Center for Climate Health and the

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<v Speaker 2>Global Environment at the Harvard tch chance School of Public Health.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi, my name is Patty Chasteli Mifad. I'm a post

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<v Speaker 3>doctor LFLO and how books.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, great, I guess I guess to start with the

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<v Speaker 2>how we kind of got started down this line of

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<v Speaker 2>inquiry was that, I mean, as you're probably aware, there's

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<v Speaker 2>been all kinds of research about the climate effects of

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<v Speaker 2>natural gas and the transition away from coal to gas.

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<v Speaker 2>There's been all this research about how the conversion in

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<v Speaker 2>the electricity sector from cole to gas has affected greenhouse

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<v Speaker 2>gas missions of the United States, and some discussion on

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<v Speaker 2>the life cycle greenhouse gas impacts with like methane links

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<v Speaker 2>and those kinds of things. And this research is all

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<v Speaker 2>great there's a lot of good stuff out there, but

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<v Speaker 2>one of the things that it doesn't do is it

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<v Speaker 2>does not address questions about what the changes to health

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<v Speaker 2>impacts due to the energy choices were. So that's part

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<v Speaker 2>of the emphasis of this paper is just to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of get started answering that particular question is what is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we know a fair amount about the greenhouse

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<v Speaker 2>gas implications of this transition from coal to gas, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is starting to fill in that question regards to public.

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<v Speaker 1>Health, right right. You know, I have to say that

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<v Speaker 1>I was surprised at how much biomass impact there is,

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<v Speaker 1>just because I feel like, I don't know, it just

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't get talked about as much as something that was

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<v Speaker 1>widely embraced. It almost seemed like from the climate side,

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<v Speaker 1>it seemed like people talked about it a lot and

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<v Speaker 1>then kind of decided, oh, actually this isn't a great solution,

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<v Speaker 1>and then stop talking about it. But it seems like

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<v Speaker 1>from your research that quite a few buildings tansition to

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<v Speaker 1>biomass and it's having a big impact. So I'm curious

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<v Speaker 1>about what you found on that front. And then I

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<v Speaker 1>want to get into the natural gas stuff after that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so the finding about biomass was kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>surprise to us too. We kind of figured, like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>while we're looking at coal and gas, we might as

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<v Speaker 2>well look at all the other energy resources that have

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<v Speaker 2>been used in you know, buildings, electricity, and industrial boilers.

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<v Speaker 2>And yeah, that was a big surprise to us too,

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<v Speaker 2>is that the impact of wood and residential buildings, wooden

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<v Speaker 2>biomass and commercial buildings and the wooden biomass use in

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<v Speaker 2>industrial boilers were all growing. And for the boilers and

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<v Speaker 2>industrial boilers and for residential buildings, those were really high

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<v Speaker 2>impacts and kind of made it to kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>top shelf of impactful sources that we found.

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<v Speaker 3>Just adding to John has point and also to what

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<v Speaker 3>you mentioned your question, actually that because that is true

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<v Speaker 3>that because in our climate policy and climate action plans

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<v Speaker 3>we have been many focused on being huse gas emissions

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<v Speaker 3>some of these and I just also have been kind

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<v Speaker 3>of going under the radar of how we have looked

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<v Speaker 3>at them and their emissions. And the biomass can be

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<v Speaker 3>an example because we also regard them usually as renewables.

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<v Speaker 3>But they didn't talk about or did not have a

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<v Speaker 3>good understanding of how much of health impacts they have,

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<v Speaker 3>and that can be a good example of why health

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<v Speaker 3>and energy should be looked at together and we shouldn't

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<v Speaker 3>look at climate actions just by focusing on doing husse

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<v Speaker 3>gas emissions.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, did you get a sense in your research

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<v Speaker 1>of just, you know, kind of what percentage of buildings

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<v Speaker 1>are actually using biomass now as opposed to other I

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<v Speaker 1>just like I when I was reading your paper, I

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<v Speaker 1>was like, God, I hadn't realized that it had been

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<v Speaker 1>that widely adopted that it would now be like a

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<v Speaker 1>dominant source of air push.

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<v Speaker 2>So right, Yeah, So the data that we used was

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<v Speaker 2>based on it was a missions data that's collected by

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<v Speaker 2>the EPA, So we don't have information on like the

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<v Speaker 2>number of buildings that are using these different field sources.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think one of the things that contributed to

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<v Speaker 2>that is rather than not just like the sheer number

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<v Speaker 2>of buildings that are converted, it's more of the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that these sources looks like they can be fairly high

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<v Speaker 2>emitting a few a few sources that could be small

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<v Speaker 2>will admit a fair amount, right, And that's more what's

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<v Speaker 2>driving the impact parsure. You had something you looked into

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<v Speaker 2>the emissions factors for some of that right, Yes, that

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<v Speaker 2>is so.

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<v Speaker 3>Adding to what Jonathan said, we don't have the percentage

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<v Speaker 3>of how many number of buildings are using what fuel type,

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<v Speaker 3>but we do have amount of energy consumption in residential

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<v Speaker 3>building sector. Just looking at the quantity the amount of

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<v Speaker 3>energy that is being used in residential buildings, for example,

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<v Speaker 3>natural gas has much higher amount of energy use compared

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<v Speaker 3>to biomass. However, we see health impacts of biomass is

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<v Speaker 3>dominating the residential sector and is because of what Jonathan

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<v Speaker 3>mentioned is the emission factor. So for one unit of

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<v Speaker 3>energy that biomass is providing, we have higher emissions usually, however,

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<v Speaker 3>I should not hear that there is a variation in

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<v Speaker 3>emission factors. So we have different types of biomass, and

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<v Speaker 3>would some of them have lower emission factors some of

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<v Speaker 3>them have higher. For example, wood is one of the

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<v Speaker 3>highest air putent emit emitting fuels in the biomass category.

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<v Speaker 3>But looking at the health impacts specifically, one thing that

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<v Speaker 3>we did find in our results was that looking at

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<v Speaker 3>the different states in residential sector, combustion of wood and

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<v Speaker 3>combustion of wood was dominating the health impacts in almost

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<v Speaker 3>every state except for just two which was New York

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<v Speaker 3>State and Illinois.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. Wow, that's really interesting. I'm curious to hear more

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<v Speaker 1>about the natural gas impacts too. So there was one

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<v Speaker 1>line in your paper that I was like, wow, that's interesting,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was let's see it says all three RCMs

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<v Speaker 1>indicate that gas had higher health impacts than coal in

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<v Speaker 1>eight states in two thousand and eight, and that number

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<v Speaker 1>increased to twenty in twenty seventeen. Could you talk a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about that? And I think there is this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of persistent idea that because of what you were

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<v Speaker 1>talking about before, that we focus on greenhouse gas emissions

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<v Speaker 1>and climate and not you know, the more sort of

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<v Speaker 1>immediate health impacts that I do think that people have

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<v Speaker 1>kind of glossed over the fact that natural gas does

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<v Speaker 1>actually create immediate pollution too. So yeah, I'm curious to

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<v Speaker 1>have you just lay out, you know, what that result

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<v Speaker 1>kind of means. And I know you do that in

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<v Speaker 1>your paper, but just to have it on audio too.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, I think, I mean, I think pretty simply

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<v Speaker 2>what it means is that like basically, if you swap

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<v Speaker 2>out one combusting fuel for another combusting fuel that is

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<v Speaker 2>not a catholic, that's going to get you to a

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<v Speaker 2>healthy energy system. I mean, when you combust anything, it

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<v Speaker 2>will produce air pollution, and you know if you inhale

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<v Speaker 2>that it is going to be harmful no matter where

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<v Speaker 2>it comes from.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think you know there should be more studies

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<v Speaker 1>of this this type that look at you know, kind

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<v Speaker 1>of beyond greenhouse gas emissions around energy sources. But also

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<v Speaker 1>do you think that like this kind of feeds into

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<v Speaker 1>the need to to just sort of rethink how how

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<v Speaker 1>we evaluate and embrace you know, quote unquote climate solutions

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<v Speaker 1>in the first place, that this this kind of idea

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<v Speaker 1>of just sort of swapping out one energy source for

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<v Speaker 1>another is maybe a bit simplistic.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I definitely agree on that point that it's simplistic.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean with in greenhouse gas world and just climate world.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, energy choices gets a lot of the intention,

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like, and I think there's there's not as

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<v Speaker 2>much attention paid as there should be to the fairly

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<v Speaker 2>large impact that air pollution has on public health. I

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<v Speaker 2>mean we've been seeing kind of study after study about this.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean recently there was the study showing that there's

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<v Speaker 2>like around eight million deaths worldwide due to air pollution

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<v Speaker 2>from fossil fuels. So it's a big deal for public health,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think yeah, so, I think I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's not evaluated as much as it really should be.

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<v Speaker 2>And what we're seeing is that these kinds of health

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<v Speaker 2>decisions are Sorry, the kind of health aspects of energy is.

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<v Speaker 2>It's becoming more and more a really big factor in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of decision making about what type of energy and

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<v Speaker 2>climate policies we have, and I think that's only going

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<v Speaker 2>to continue in the future as we're continuing to rightfully

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<v Speaker 2>put more and more focus on both public health and

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<v Speaker 2>sort of the equity implications where you know, again with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of these fuel combusting sources, they're often around

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<v Speaker 2>you know, black, indigenous or communities of color, So making

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<v Speaker 2>the correct choices around what those folks are getting exposed

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<v Speaker 2>to is really important for not just public health, but

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<v Speaker 2>for equity and in frontal justice as well.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Can you talk a little bit about the specific

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<v Speaker 1>health related emissions associated with natural gas kind of what

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<v Speaker 1>they are and their impacts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so we do see it's a pretty steep decline

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<v Speaker 2>in health impacts due to coal combustion and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of with coal, a lot of the impacts there are

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<v Speaker 2>coming from primary PM two point five emissions. So these

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<v Speaker 2>are things that are admitted sort of, this is what

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<v Speaker 2>everybody gets exposed to in the end, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>like just primary exposure of just particles that are suspended

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<v Speaker 2>in the air. The other thing, other main pollutant leading

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<v Speaker 2>to the coal health impacts is SO two sulfur dioxide.

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<v Speaker 2>It forms sulfuric g acid and forms sulfate particles, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a type of PM two point five, which then

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<v Speaker 2>people inhale and results in all the health effects that

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<v Speaker 2>we know about for PM two point five. So in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of the air pollution from natural gas gas, that's

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a different profile. There is some

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<v Speaker 2>emissions of that primary PM two point five, but with

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<v Speaker 2>gas there's a bigger proportion of it is coming from

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<v Speaker 2>NOTO a NOx NOx similar to SO two. It can

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<v Speaker 2>when it's emitted, it eventually reacts with other pollutants downwind

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<v Speaker 2>and forms PM two point five, which we then get

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<v Speaker 2>exposed to and causes the harmful health effects we know about.

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<v Speaker 2>The other one, strangely is ammonia. This was another kind

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<v Speaker 2>of almost atmospheric chemistry surprise, where there's a fairly high

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<v Speaker 2>ammonia emissions from natural gas, especially when it's burnt in

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<v Speaker 2>residential buildings, which leads to fairly high impacts areas around

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<v Speaker 2>those buildings.

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<v Speaker 1>That's super interesting too, So what do you plan to

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<v Speaker 1>look at next? I know, I saw something in here

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<v Speaker 1>about you know that kind of looking at current projections,

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like these trends continue in twenty eighteen. So

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<v Speaker 1>I imagine that you're planning to continue looking at this as

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<v Speaker 1>data is available. But are there other kind of areas

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<v Speaker 1>that you want to look into?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think, as I was talking about with this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of the comparison to the greenhouse gas footprint, you

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<v Speaker 2>have to look across again the full life cycle, including

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<v Speaker 2>both combustion, pipeline, storage, processing, and activity in the well.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's largely been done for greenhouse gas emissions, hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>been done for health, and we would like to do

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<v Speaker 2>that to look at the full life cycle health impacts

0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:00.520
<v Speaker 2>of gas from wellhead to point of combustion, whether that's

0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.200
<v Speaker 2>a power plan in a building or a innustrial boiler.

0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.040
<v Speaker 2>The other thing we'd like to do on top of

0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:11.920
<v Speaker 2>that is to rerun this using a different, different set

0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:16.319
<v Speaker 2>of modeling platforms. Lets us catch health impacts of exposures

0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:21.160
<v Speaker 2>to more different pollutants and do it in more geographic details.

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.800
<v Speaker 2>We'll be able to get county level health estimates and

0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.480
<v Speaker 2>get estimates of the health of other health impacts related

0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.480
<v Speaker 2>their pollution exposure like asthma, respiratory countiovascular hospitalizations, and other

0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.440
<v Speaker 2>health impacts related their pollution exposure. Okay, py, sure you

0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.440
<v Speaker 2>want to talk about the other stuff going on.

0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.640
<v Speaker 3>You have also some other studies that we are looking

0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.640
<v Speaker 3>at to one of the previous points that we talked

0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:50.800
<v Speaker 3>about having a more holistic assessment of climate policy plans

0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.000
<v Speaker 3>that doesn't look at just climate impacts and going house

0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.840
<v Speaker 3>gas emissions, but also health impacts of different client policies

0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.680
<v Speaker 3>that are being proposed, specifically in building sector. So that

0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 3>is one of our other studies that we have been

0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.200
<v Speaker 3>working on. One example of that has been looking at

0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.920
<v Speaker 3>the health and climate impacts of Local Law ninety seven

0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:18.160
<v Speaker 3>in New York City that aims to that has actually

0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:23.200
<v Speaker 3>mandated emission reduction from energy use in building sector from

0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 3>buildings that are larger than twenty five thousand square feet

0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.640
<v Speaker 3>with the goal of reducing their gin house gas emissions

0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 3>forty person by twenty thirty and eighty percent by twenty fifty.

0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:38.960
<v Speaker 3>But that policy also being another example of focusing on

0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 3>even the goals are explicitly just talking about HAS gas

0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:47.440
<v Speaker 3>emission reduction, we are looking at how that can impact

0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:48.520
<v Speaker 3>health impacts.

0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.920
<v Speaker 1>Got it, That's interesting. Thank you guys both so much

0:15:52.000 --> 0:16:10.720
<v Speaker 1>for speaking with me. That's it for this time. Big

0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.200
<v Speaker 1>thanks to Jonathan and PARISHARV for joining me. I'll stick

0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:15.880
<v Speaker 1>a link to their study in the show notes for

0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.360
<v Speaker 1>those of you who want to dig in further. Also

0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:23.359
<v Speaker 1>big thanks to our latest Patreon supporters. They are Nathan Phillips,

0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:28.760
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