1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lambs Hi, I'm Christian Seger. And 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: before we get into the topic today, I just want 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: to remind everyone you can find us on social media 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: on Facebook, on Twitter, and untum and on tumbler. We 7 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: are blow to Mind and I think all of those. Uh, 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: And if you just do a search for Stuff to 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, people find us will definitely pop up, 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: and they can also email us questions and comments about 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: the episode. Where below the mind at how stuff Works 12 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: dot com and of course the mothership is Stuff to 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. Yeah, definitely make sure that 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: you go to that site so that you can see 15 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: more of the videos and blog posts and galleries and 16 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: other content that we produce that go beyond the podcast. Yeah. 17 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 1: We will beam the knowledge directly into your body in 18 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: the same way that that one might have the wounds 19 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: of Christ lay there into their body. Yeah. I believe 20 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: that the way that it works is that an angel 21 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: with five wings flies over you and fires lasers from 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: the wings into the spots of the wounds. If the 23 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: paintings are any indication this seems to be the process involved. 24 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: So if you couldn't guess we are going to talk 25 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: about stigmata today, Yes, Yes, stigmata a topic wanting to 26 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: cover here for some time and uh and it's it's 27 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: indeed a very they're very deep topic. There are a 28 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of there's history, there's science, 29 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: there's a religion, myth uh, iconography, there a lot of psychology, psychology, 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: and we certainly can't do every corner of the story justice, 31 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: even in a two part Yeah, I think that it's 32 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: important to recognize upfront that that we are not experts 33 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: in uh, certainly not experts in Catholic history, which is 34 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: a lot of what we're going to talk about in 35 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: the first episode is about St. Francis, who is of 36 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: course beatified by the Catholic Church and one of the 37 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: best known stigmatics in history, right, and he's essentially the 38 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: patient zero for stigmata and uh. And he's an interesting 39 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: figure from historical standpoint, but also from a biological standpoint, 40 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: as we'll get into as as modern day historians look 41 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: back at the records and the accounts and try to 42 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: figure out what might have been going on with his body. 43 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: Uh from a medical standpoint, Yeah, he lived a really 44 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: interesting life. And you know, we can go through that 45 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: sort of chronologically today, but I think it would probably 46 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: help if we start off by just explaining stigmata as 47 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: a concept, uh, and and what it is, where the 48 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: idea of it came from, and and and how it 49 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: resonates with culture today. Indeed. Yeah, So to start off, 50 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: the word itself, stigmata comes from the Greek stigma uh. 51 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: And this refers to the brand with which slaves and 52 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: criminals in ancient Greece and Rome were marked. Hence our 53 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: verb stigmatized to mark as with a brand disgrace. Yeah. 54 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: So if you're if you are, what how does that 55 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: work in terms of stigma stigmatization of the eye Is 56 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: that there's a mark on your actual eye? Ah? You know, 57 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, if I wonder, I wonder what the 58 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: connection is there, but I bet it's got to be 59 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: something like that. Given the synonym with markings. I know 60 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: that if you are suffering the the Catholic stigmata um, 61 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: your eye doctor will probably be able to do nothing. Yeah, 62 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: They're useless in that sense. They can't even stop the bleeding. 63 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. So the Catholic stigmata, which a 64 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: number of you've probably at least absorbed through art or 65 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: pop culture. You know, we're talking about the physical manifestation 66 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: of the wounds of Jesus Christ crucified. Yeah, specifically the 67 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: two wounds in the hand. They're usually found in the palm, 68 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: which is important. We'll come back to that later. There's 69 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: two wounds in the feet as well. These are from 70 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: the nails that were hammered through Christ's hands and feet. 71 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: And then there's a fifth wound that a lot of 72 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: people don't recognize, which is on his side. I don't 73 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: know if it was on his right or left side, 74 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: but he was uh lanced or speared by I believe 75 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: a Roman soldier as he was carrying the cross. I 76 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: believe it's the right side at least in various paintings, 77 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: but I'm not I'm not sure of it if there's 78 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: a definite right versus left, you know, cannonized. So beyond 79 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: the horrific nature of being crucified, hanging from across bleeding 80 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: from those wounds, he also had a pretty massive wound 81 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: in his side, according to the Bible and other stories, 82 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: uh that that was bleeding and would have killed them anyways, presumably. 83 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 1: And then there are a number of sort of add 84 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: on stigmata wounds you can throw in the pop up, 85 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: like the lacerations on the back from being scourged, crown 86 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: of thorns, fro thorn's, sometimes bleeding eyes are thrown in, 87 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: as well as kind of uh, that's that's more of 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: a garden of a cassemine, kind of a thing that 89 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: would be on top of everything else that would be rough. Yeah, 90 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: I mean, they really laid into the man. So there's 91 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,559 Speaker 1: a lot to choose from, but certainly the the big five, 92 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: the five wounds, those are the ones that typically in 93 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: order to be actually recognized I believe by the Church 94 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: to it has to be those five wounds. Right now, 95 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: I do want to point out that stigmata, at least 96 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: as we're discussing it here, it's not necessarily a purely 97 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: Christian phenomenon. According to Pamela ray heat M d Uh 98 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: in her work A Mind Matter Interaction or a View 99 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: of Historical Reports, Theories and Research, she says there are 100 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: a few accounts of stigmata among Muslims and Hindus. With 101 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: Muslims the alleged stigmata resemble the battle wounds of the 102 00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: prophet uh and I've personally read accounts of one if 103 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: twenty one century Indian thinker, philosopher ug christa Mutri undergoing 104 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: supposedly undergoing physical transformations, the swelling swellings around the chakras 105 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: in various discolorations that match up with Hindu iconography. Yeah, 106 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: so I think it's important to acknowledge that at the top, because, 107 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: as we're going to find throughout the discussion today, there 108 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: are multiple possible origins for stigmata. And one could potentially 109 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: be self mutilation, which might explain why in different religions 110 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: there at different points the body. Another could potentially be 111 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: psycho sematic, which would also explain that if you were 112 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: hyper fixated in your mind on specific points of your body, 113 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: then there's a possibility that lesions could appear. Well, it 114 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: hasn't been proven or not, but there's there's evidence that 115 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: that might be the case in some of these stigmatic cases. 116 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 1: And then of course, lasers from an angel right, which 117 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: I believe that most of the research refers to as 118 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: uh de ific intervention. And you know, we won't spend 119 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: a lot of time on that one, but it is 120 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: interesting to sort of think about it as non theologians. 121 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: Uh you know why why how that would work with 122 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 1: the metaphysics. Like, the best I could think of is 123 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: that it's sort of like you have you have the 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: the the birth and death of Christ is kind of 125 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: a patch that's applied to the existing reality. So reality 126 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: comes out like a game comes out, and there's some 127 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: problems with him. God says, I, really, I have got 128 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: to put out a big patch to fix fix this right, 129 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: save humanity. But before I get into that, I mean, 130 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: I guess we should obviously just do a quick run 131 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: through of how crucifixion and Jesus fit factors into the 132 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: Christian and its particularly the Catholic worldview. So to summarize, 133 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: you have the basic notion here that God takes human 134 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: form in the guise of Jesus. He's tortured, killed on 135 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: a Roman crucifix for the ideas that he spread, and 136 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: it's through this execution and resurrection of God incarnate that 137 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: humanity is redeemed. So God suffers bodily death so that 138 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: humans might know bodily immortality. Yeah, and and I think 139 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: that that's important to consider when we're talking about later 140 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: stigmatics who think of themselves as also suffering for the 141 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: sins of mankind. Um, and I I think that I 142 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a logic problem with connecting 143 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: the dots there. For the stigmatics I get, I get 144 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: the Christian origin story and believe it or not. You know, 145 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: I I I grew up going to church reading the 146 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Bible a lot, and UM, I have somewhat of an 147 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: affinity for those stories. I wouldn't call myself an atheist 148 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: per se, but I here's how I feel about the 149 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: whole stigmadeling. I don't necessarily believe that it's de ific 150 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: intervention going on here, but I will. I think I 151 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: believe that the people, most of the people who are 152 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: affected by stigmata believe it themselves. I believe that they believe. Yeah, 153 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: there's there's definitely some some fakery in there at times 154 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: with some of the stigmatics. Oh yeah, there's cases that 155 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,959 Speaker 1: will come across where people were called out on it 156 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: and it was discovered that they were you know, it 157 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: was it was self mutilation. Yeah. Now, I mean I 158 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: like to look at it from from from different vantage points, 159 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: and of course we invite listeners to do that. As well. 160 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: But but when I try and put myself in the 161 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: mind of the of the really devoute believer and trying 162 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: to think, well, how would this work in the metaphysics 163 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: of Christianity From a purely non theologian standpoint, I think 164 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: of screen burn You know, the old phenomenon where you'd 165 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: have your tell your computer screen. You leave some text 166 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: up there too long and it gets burned into the screen, right, 167 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: like the reason why we have screensavers. Yeah, that it's 168 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: essentially your screensavers, not up on your your faith. And 169 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: so you're so into thinking about Christ and UH and 170 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: the iconography of Christ and holiness and and then it 171 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: ends up manifesting in your hands body or a more 172 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: elaborate version that came to mind is that it's uh 173 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: like a pre christ world. Is is like a game 174 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: that comes out. It comes out a little too early. 175 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: A lot of work went into creating this video game, 176 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: but there are some problems. So God says, all right, 177 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: I've got to apply a patch to this thing. So 178 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: it releases the patch. But the patch, as we all know, 179 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: you apply a big patch to a game, it just 180 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: creates more a little bugs. And so maybe the stigmata 181 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: is is kind of a bug in the game post patch. Uh, 182 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: that is just a sort of an accident. Right. It's 183 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: difficult because within the the actual I want to call 184 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: it Laura, as if we're like referring to some kind 185 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: of supernatural vampire story here. But like within the text 186 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: of the Bible, there's only one mention of stigmata, and 187 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: even that is fairly vague. I believe it's in Galashians, uh, 188 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,440 Speaker 1: and it's in reference to the apostle Paul, but it's 189 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: not entirely known if he's actually talking about stigmata the 190 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: way that he refers to it, that uh, manifesting on 191 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: his body is the marks of Christ. Indeed, indeed, and 192 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: just to put that in the in the context of 193 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: the timeline here, Paul would have lived five c E. Right, 194 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: And the exact quote, I'm sorry I didn't have it earlier, 195 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: was I bear in my body the marks of the 196 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: Lord Jesus. Now does by marks does he mean literally 197 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: the wounds through the hands and feet inside or does 198 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:41,160 Speaker 1: he mean something else, maybe a tattoo, Maybe it's metaphorical. 199 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: We'll get into that later. But I believe that it's 200 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: best if we start off with what you referred to 201 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: as patient zero with St. Francis, who was really like 202 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: the case that that that has the most not evidence 203 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: because you know, it happened what eight hundred nine d 204 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: years ago, but there's a lot of documentation about it 205 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: and and um discussion about the wounds. Yeah, he lived 206 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: close to eight hundred years ago, and he's he's definitely 207 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: the trends thattor, this is the patient zero for stigmata um. 208 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: And you know, modern historians continue to sort through early 209 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: biographies to make sense of the terms used in the 210 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: accounts given uh and in some cases make an argument 211 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: for the stigmata's roots in natural world illness rather than 212 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: supernatural miracle, which will we'll get into. But yeah, Francis 213 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: today is known as the patron saint of animals in 214 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: the environment, the father of the Franciscan Order. He was 215 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: born one died in twelve twenty six and the key 216 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: event in his life for the purposes of discussing stigmata 217 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: is that late in his life he's on the slopes 218 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: of Italy's Mount Laverna and he's visited by this fiery 219 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: vision of a crucified Christ flames twisting into the forum 220 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: of Sarah wings. And according to the lore, uh, this 221 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: is such an tense mystical experience that it inflicts the 222 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: wounds of the crucifixion right onto Francis hands and feet, 223 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: whereas it depicted in some of the paintings that we 224 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: were looking at laser beams from a fire. That's what 225 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: it looks like in the in these images. Yeah. Uh. 226 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: And and what's interesting about this is that there is 227 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: some documentation that says that there was someone with Francis 228 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: when this happened. And I believe the understanding was that 229 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: they didn't see this, uh, this angelic manifestatious manifestation in 230 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 1: the way that Francis described to them, but that they 231 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: did see him, you know, kind of fall in pain 232 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden have these wounds. But makes 233 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: sense that someone would be with him, right, because Francis 234 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: was not a well man, and he was fairly infirm 235 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: and by late life I think he lived into his 236 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: forties maybe, so even for the time, he was only 237 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: a little bit older than us. Yeah. So if he 238 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: was to say, hey, I'm gonna go out into the 239 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: wilderness and pray a little bit, they would have said, well, 240 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: pulled on, let's send. Yeah. So Francis is uh kind 241 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: of interesting before he became, you know, the major figure 242 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: of the Franciscan order because he was you know, he 243 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: came from I don't know about like wealth, but he 244 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: was what we would probably referred to as middle class today. Uh, 245 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: and left that to go to war. Uh. He was 246 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: in one war, was a prisoner of war, and it 247 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: was described I think it's accurate to say that he 248 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: was fairly traumatized by that experience. Yeah, that was the 249 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: gist I got from the sources we're looking at. Uh. 250 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: And then he came back, had some epiphanies about life, 251 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: you know, as would be expected after an experience like that, 252 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: was sent to war again, and it was on his 253 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: way to the second War that he had a vision correct. Yeah. 254 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: And this is where accounts get kind of complicated, because 255 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: some accounts seemed to indicate that he just either felt 256 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: unwell or he suffered dreams about becoming unwell. It depends 257 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: on who he asked, but any rate, he definitely had 258 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: a change of heart. Uh. And maybe there was a 259 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: there was an ailment angle to that as well. There 260 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: could be, yeah, because he again, like he suffered illness 261 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: even from a fairly young age in life. Uh And 262 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: but basically the vision was that he shouldn't go to war, 263 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: that he should go back devote his life to the 264 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: teachings of Christ and and basically modeling on the life 265 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: of Christ. Uh And there was a point where he 266 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: went to Rome. Uh and what he took to doing 267 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: was begging with the poor around Rome and becoming uh 268 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: becoming a pauper, becoming homeless, essentially an understanding life from 269 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: the streets. Yeah. And in twelve or six, which is 270 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: just you know, in the in the years immediately following 271 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: his his vision initial vision in which he gave up war, 272 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: he begins working with lepers, which and I mean working 273 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: in close confines, with living with them, eating with them, 274 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: kissing them, etcetera. Yeah, I'd like to stop there for 275 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: a second. So I have a personal experience. When I 276 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: was fifteen years old, I went on a trip to 277 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: Katmandu in Nepal and it was it was there was 278 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: like a tour service. I believe, it wasn't fancy or anything, 279 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: but there was a guide who took us around Catmandu 280 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: and we did various activities. And at the time, this 281 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: was in the early nineties, Uh, there were plenty of 282 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: lepers around Catman Do and it was my first experience 283 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: even with hearing the term, much less seeing in real life. 284 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: It is a horrible affliction and it's um, extremely sad. 285 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: But the idea that he was, as you described, in 286 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: such close contact with these lepers of Rome and other 287 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: other towns around Italy mainly, Uh, it just it just 288 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: goes to show you, you know, what kind of a 289 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: man he was, how dedicated he was to to the 290 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: teachings of the church. Yeah, I mean, especially when you 291 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: think you think about how m complicated the idea of 292 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: physical ailment was at the time, because it's all tied 293 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: up with ideas about moral failing and sin as well. 294 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: So so there's the idea that not only is he 295 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: working with the disease, he's working with people that are 296 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: perhaps spiritually impure. Um. But again it's very much in 297 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: keeping with this, uh, this this new purpose in his life, right. Yeah, 298 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: he did not worry about being I guess tainted would 299 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: be the word physically or spiritually. So some other high 300 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: points from his life. Twelve thirteen twelve fourteen, he had 301 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: to aboard a journey to Morocco cut out he cut 302 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: out in Spain due to quote prolonged illness in which 303 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: he lost his speech for three days, uh twelve seventeen. 304 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: He suffered from court and fever, but accounts differ on 305 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: whether this was an actual illness or a metaphorical fever 306 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: such as a temptation, uh, you know vision experience. Yeah, 307 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: And so the resource that um we read from that 308 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: that accounts on this actually breaks down, you know, nowadays 309 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: when we referred to Corten fever, it's it's synonymous with malaria, 310 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: I believe. But what they were saying was that in 311 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, you know, obviously medicine wasn't where it 312 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: is now, and that there were different types of quote 313 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: unquote fevers basically that they applied to dozens of diseases, 314 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: and I think I think they've listed it as like 315 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: seventy seven different types of fever were possible at the time, 316 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: but there were four categories of them, and the way 317 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: that they categorized them was how often you had the fever. 318 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: So if you had it daily, it was Quotitian, if 319 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: you had it every other day, it was Tertian, and 320 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: if you had it every third day, it was corton. 321 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: And the fourth one was continuous. You just had it 322 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: all the time, all right, And then of course you 323 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: could just be saying I had a fever and yeah, 324 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: a mystical experience exactly. So it's really hard to tell 325 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: what they meant by this, but we're fairly certain it 326 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: wasn't malaria that they were referring to that they meant. 327 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: Around twelve twenty, he begins that you experience constant eye pain, 328 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: constant peers flowing out of his eyes, which gets back 329 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: to that, uh, your reference to stigmatics, who believed from 330 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: the eyes? Yeah, indeed, and that is the year that 331 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: he suffers the stigmata at Alverna. And after this, it's 332 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: it's important to note it's not just a matter of 333 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: these um uh, these these wounds or sores manifesting on 334 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: his hands and feet. He's experiencing pain all over his body. 335 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: At this point, he's he has using wounds or sores. 336 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: He becomes unable to walk, right. So this is something 337 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: that I wanted to point out too, is the being 338 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 1: unable to walk thing could be a symptom of one 339 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: of the many other illnesses that he was exposed to, 340 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: or let's let's say the stigmata happened and his feet 341 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: were pierced through as if they had been pierced by nails. 342 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: I imagine what walking would be difficult for any stigmatic Yes, 343 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: I would think so? Um so, I yeah, I'm kind 344 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: of wondering why that isn't a more common symptom that 345 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: we hear about as we, you know, later talk about 346 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: other stigmatics in history. Seems like they would all be 347 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: confined to a wheelchair, crutches or something. The year after that, twelve, 348 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: he receives treatment for his eye pains. And when we 349 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: say treatment, we're talking about the cauterization of veins from 350 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: years to eyebrows due to the constant accumulation of fluid. 351 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: And this was a standard medical procedure of the day. Uh. 352 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: But he also he felt no pain when he allegedly 353 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: when this was administered to him. And so by twelve 354 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: twenty six, he's almost completely blind. He has a wasted body, 355 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: his skin is darkened, he's vomiting blood, suspected liver and 356 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: spleen ailments, headaches, and that same year he dies at 357 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: age forty four, after a life spent traveling off in 358 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: far and travel in poverty, working with the sick, including 359 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: those with leopards. So, in summary, Francis was a guy 360 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: who uh lived in poverty on purpose, so subsequently probably 361 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: had poor nutritional practices. Uh. He had a history of 362 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: exposure to many diseases, especially leprosy, and uh he was 363 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: debilitated by these diseases through probably the last decade of 364 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: his life. Yeah, so we have we have plenty of 365 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: stuff to work with when trying to look for a 366 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: purely biological explanation for why this guy would have experienced 367 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: what we would come to know as the stigmata. A 368 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: couple other facts about Francis I'd like to throw out 369 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: there before we dive into the disease part. Francis, did 370 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: you know this He was the first person to create 371 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: a Nativity scene. Yeah, apparently he was the one who 372 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: had the idea for that around Christmas time, you know, 373 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 1: replicating the Nativity. Uh. And it was only two years 374 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: after he died that he became a saying. He was 375 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: pronounced to saying by the Pope. Yeah, fast turned around. 376 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: You don't get back today, right, I would say that 377 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: that's I don't know, Pope John Paul. But it was 378 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: pretty quick for him. But even still I don't. I 379 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: don't think it was within two years. I mean, it's 380 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: also I think important to note about Francis that most 381 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: of the sources we were looking at, uh, there was 382 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: no indication that he made any personal claims to have 383 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: suffered or experienced some sort of supernatural Christ like wound 384 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,919 Speaker 1: in his body. Yeah. That's what's really interesting about this 385 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: is a lot of the accounts and the research that 386 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: looks into the various evidence is that Francis himself was 387 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: very reluctant to talk about the stigmata UH, and in fact, 388 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, didn't want it to be publicized would be 389 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: the wrong word because they didn't exactly have mass media then, 390 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: but he didn't want it to be something that was 391 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: spoken of. He was actually worried that if it was 392 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: talked about, that his um that he you know, would 393 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: be in trouble, that the grace of God that was 394 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: stowed upon him would be taken away from him. UM. 395 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: So he tried to hide the wounds. And there's references 396 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: to him being ill towards the end of his life, 397 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: you know, laying in bed, uh, monks tending to him, 398 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: and you know, one I think was like maybe washing 399 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: him or or or reaching to to uh move his 400 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: torso and touched the wound in his side, and he, 401 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: you know, gasped out in pain. But he did not 402 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: want this monk to say anything about it. It was 403 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: not Francis's idea. I think if we were going to 404 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 1: say Francis faked this whole thing so that he seemed 405 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: like he was a saint, right, it doesn't match up 406 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: with the um the stories of the man and other 407 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: occasions that he did not seem like the kind of 408 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: person with the quality of character that would make up 409 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: a story like this, because he didn't even want other 410 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: people to know about it. Yeah, it wasn't until October three, 411 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: twelve six that we know that was the first written 412 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: account of Saint France just having experienced some sort of 413 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: miraculous wounds. Uh. And this comes to us from the 414 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: writings of brother Elias. He says, and is that? And 415 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: now I announced to you a great joy, a new miracle. 416 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: The world has never heard of such a miracle except 417 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: in the Son of God, who is Christ, our Lord. 418 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: A little while before his death, our brother and father 419 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: appeared crucified, bearing in his body the five wounds, which 420 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: are truly the stigmata of Christ his hands and feet, 421 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: where as if punctured by nails, pierced on both sides 422 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: and had scars that were the black color of nails. 423 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: His side appeared pierced by a lance and often gave 424 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: forth droplets of blood. And it's important to note that 425 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 1: line about a new miracle, um, you know, an exceptional miracle, 426 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: because it it drives home that this was this was 427 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: a pretty powerful thing to claim about somebody. This was 428 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: This was a potentially dangerous idea at the time, absolutely 429 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: because uh and in fact, there were you know, other 430 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: monks that doubted francis Is authenticity with this and a 431 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 1: I believe the way that they described it was that 432 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: he was trying to be a quote new God. Yeah, 433 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: and that like there was the iconography surrounding this event 434 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: and specifically stigmatics was questionable because it was drawing attention 435 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: away from Christianity itself. Yeah, I mean, because because the 436 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: initial reaction would be like, are you trying to single 437 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: white female? What's going on? As Arnold I. Davidson points 438 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 1: out in his article Miracles of Bodily Transformation or How 439 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: Saint Francis received the Stigmata, he said that Francis. Stigmata 440 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: was written off at the time as we just saw 441 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: as a unique miracle, indeed a miracle greater than any 442 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: other miracle. And even then, to counter doubts and denials 443 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: in the day at that time required nine papal bulls. Um, 444 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: so I have some you know, some big authoritatory statements, 445 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: some big press releases got down from from the pope's 446 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: office saying no, this is the real, this is for real. Yeah, 447 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 1: and from my reading it sounds like, um, the popes 448 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: at the time of his life had met with him 449 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: personally on several occasions too, so they were well aware 450 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: of this. It wasn't as if he was just you know, 451 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: someone who is rather low on the echelon of the 452 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: Catholic hierarchy. And various other accounts in the time of Stigmata, 453 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: we were often just completely thrown out, just rejected as 454 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: as you know, scandals or even potentially heretical, because the 455 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: basic idea is you're presenting France is not only as saintly, 456 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: but but almost as this new Christ. Yeah. And we 457 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: should say here too that uh, it's somewhat misleading to 458 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: describe St. Francis as the first stigmatic because there were 459 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: between Christ's death and between St. Francis's life there were 460 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: cases of quote unquote stigmata. But we'll get into it 461 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: later about whether that actually meant wounds as we come 462 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: to understand them as being stigmatic or not. Uh, it 463 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,719 Speaker 1: could mean many other things based on the literature at 464 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: the time. One thing I wanted to talk about with St. 465 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: Francis is um the description of his stigmata by Thomas 466 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: Solano in this book that he wrote about St. Francis, 467 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: The Life of St. Francis from eight I think you 468 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: referenced this as well, and then notes the the way 469 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 1: that he described the wounds in the hands was not 470 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: just that they were holes like we would imagine from 471 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: like a horror movie or something, but that you could 472 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: actually see the points of the nails protruding from the flesh. 473 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: That they were like the nail points were pushing up 474 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: through the flesh and black underneath, as if you know, 475 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: there were like ghost nails there. Uh. And that I 476 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: mean we think of stigmata today as being a kind 477 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: of supernatural, scary type symbolism. You know that you would 478 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: have you would see in a horror movie, But I 479 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: can't imagine that that seems so much scarier to me. 480 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: You know, I'm surprised that some some horror director hasn't 481 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: glommed onto that yet and pulled that into the content 482 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: that they've produced, because it's just the idea of these 483 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: permanent nails just kind of just barely pushing up under 484 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: your skin. It's cruciating. Yeah, and it's the important to 485 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: hear as well that some of the accounts vary on 486 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: exactly what the wounds of St. Francis consisted, often in 487 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: the same way that the stigmatic traditions to follow. You'd 488 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: see everything from you know, slight blemishes, um and little 489 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: sores counting stigmata to actual holes or the manifestation of nails. Right. Yeah, 490 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: sometimes it's just like purple marks in the palms of 491 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: your hands. All right, you know, let's take a quick break. 492 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: When we come back, we will jump into some of 493 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: the various disease explanations for the stigmata experience by St. Francis. 494 00:28:54,400 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: Of all right, we're back, so we're gonna we're gonna 495 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: pick through some of the possible disease explanations here for St. Francis. 496 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: Real quick. We mentioned that he traveled into some of 497 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: the swampy territory in Italy had turned back from going 498 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: to Morocco. So there's one possibility that he suffered from malaria. Now, 499 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: to touch back upon what we talked about earlier, quartaine 500 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: fever and malaria sort of understood as different things at 501 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: the time, but still he may have contracted malaria. Yeah. 502 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: The the late historian Dr Edward Frederick Hartung made out 503 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: a strong case for malignant malaria as being the the 504 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: cause of these uh, these these bodily manifestation um, though 505 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: rarely encountered with today's treatment. One complication of malignant malaria 506 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: infection is the purplish hemorrhage of blood through the skin, 507 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: also known is papa uh. And what's more, propera usually 508 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: distribute symmetrically according to the heart, tongue, on the hands, 509 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: and on the feet. So is it possible that these 510 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: supernatural wounds were mere hemorrhages caused by malaria. Yeah, And 511 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: propara or as I pronounced it, I think properah are 512 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: just one of many types of lesions that can form 513 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: as a result of the various diseases we're going to 514 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: talk about today, and they're they're the larger of the 515 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: categories of legions that can form on your body as 516 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: a result. Now, it's worth pointing out that there's some 517 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: problems with the with the malaria argument. According to Johann 518 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: shops Line and Daniel P. Selmasti, it was until the 519 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: seventeenth century the physicians could distinguish between the fevers of 520 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: malaria and other fevers. The true cause of malaria wasn't 521 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: known until the nineteenth century. The word malaria didn't even 522 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: exist until the six so we we can't be for sure. 523 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: And also malaria doesn't fact the bones. And then as 524 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: we'll get into uh shortly, uh, there's some skeletal evidence 525 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: that seems to point in the direction of a particular ailment. Right, 526 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: that's somewhat important for as evidence forensic evidence in the 527 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: case of Saint Francis um other possibilities wants. Some have 528 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: argued tuberculosis um and it's certainly a statistical possibility, but 529 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: the chances are slim since it didn't become a huge 530 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: issue um until in Europe, until the urbanization of the 531 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: sixteenth through nineteen centuries. Yeah, and one of the interesting 532 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: things about the tuberculosis argument is that some sources, you know, 533 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: after his death suggested that it's possible that he contracted 534 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: tuberculosis from his mother because his mother was from France 535 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: and it was more common there. Tuberculosis was more common 536 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: in France. Um, but most people criticize this as not 537 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: being legitimate claim. Is you know that that's just just like, well, yeah, 538 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, maybe it's possible, but is it Is it 539 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: really likely, especially compared with some of the other candidates. Yeah, 540 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: there's also speculation that he was a mnemic as well, 541 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: but again this is all after his life. There's no 542 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: evidence of either of these things in the actual written 543 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: literature of the time of people who lived around St. Francis. Yeah, 544 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: which is largely all we have to go on. So 545 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: others have made cases for brucellosis, humophilia, herpie simplex. But 546 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: the really convincing one, the one we ended up spending 547 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: a lot more time on, is leprosy, because again, he 548 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time with leopards, living with them, 549 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: eating with them, coming into visual physical contact with them. Yeah, 550 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 1: and is you know, the ethos of his life was 551 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: to basically live like them, you know, to take on 552 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: the same pains that they had taken on. So it 553 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: seems to me that in his mind that contracting leprosy 554 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,479 Speaker 1: was was not you know, a punishment per se, It 555 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: was part of the life that he wanted to lead, 556 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: caring for the ill and for the poor. And there 557 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: was a lot of it at the time too. It 558 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: was common in medieval Europe. It was common in thirteenth 559 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: century Italy, and there were six leper houses in a 560 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: c c alone, you know. Interesting a side note about 561 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: leprosy in in Europe. Leprosy and Europe declined significantly after 562 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: the Black Plague of through three, right, And I believe 563 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: the idea there is that because lepers were already susceptible 564 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: to illness and weak, that they were you know, largely 565 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: killed off by the plague, almost entirely, right, so that 566 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: there there wasn't a lot of opportunity to contract it otherwise. Yeah, 567 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: and uh, and and there's also a case to be 568 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: made that the process of segregating lepers actually decreased transmission 569 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: increases in dietary vitamin C gave some degree of protection 570 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: against it. And since leprosy into NTB are both caused 571 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: by different species of the same bacterium, the rise of TB, 572 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: as we discussed that comes with the organization might have 573 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: provided protection against leprosy due to cross immunity. So you 574 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: have immune responses that are stimulated to fight one infection, uh, 575 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: and they combat the other. And lepers often contracted TV, 576 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: and those with TV seldom contracted leprosy, even in places 577 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: where both were endemic. But to clarify, Francis lived almost 578 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: a hundred years before the Black plague really kicked in, right, 579 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: So we can't really factor black plague into it. That's 580 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: what's whine. It doesn't really come up as one of 581 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: the potential possibilities. But I think that does help to 582 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: underline how how complicated it begins to be when you 583 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: start looking back at a disease in history, because it 584 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: of course doesn't exist in isolation. Yeah. Absolutely, Oh, this 585 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: reminds me. There is an interesting factoid that you told 586 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: me before we started recording that sort of places St. 587 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: Francis in history, and we're talking about where he is 588 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 1: in relation to the Black plague. Talk about Genghis Khan. Oh, Yeah, 589 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: the the year St. Francis was born two, Genghis Khan 590 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: was twenty years old at the time, So that kind 591 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: of gives you a little bit of a reference point, yeah, 592 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: particularly if you're may be more familiar with with Asian 593 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: history versus European. Alright, So the case for leprosy um. 594 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: A lot of this comes from paper by Flatson and 595 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: soul Mastery, who I mentioned earlier, and I'll make sure 596 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: to include a link to to to that resource on 597 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: the landing page of this episode of Stuff to Blow 598 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: your Mind dot Com in case you want to check 599 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: it out. But they contended what could have been going 600 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,879 Speaker 1: on here was that it was something known as tuberculoid leprosy. Uh. 601 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: They contended to medieval physicians only understood one form of 602 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: leprosy really, and that's the disfiguring lepromattis, of which we'll discuss, 603 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,439 Speaker 1: and they might have missed this more subtle tuberculoid kind 604 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: of leprosy that that he might have had. So as 605 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: like a lay person not particularly understanding these diseases up 606 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: close and personal, other than my experience of seeing lepers 607 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: when I was younger, I'm a mad inning that. Let's 608 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: say this was the case. He had lesions on his 609 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: hands and feet and maybe on his side, but he 610 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: probably also had lesions across his whole body, right right, Yeah, 611 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: that's that's the the takeaway that I get I get 612 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: from this, Okay. So, I mean most people out there 613 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: are probably thinking of leprosy as just like digits fall off, 614 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: parts of your face fall off, things like that. That's 615 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: sort of the popular culture understanding of it. But these 616 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: these open wounds are popping up everywhere on the body, 617 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: not just it wasn't necessarily and in fact, in some 618 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: of the descriptions of St. Francis that we we read 619 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: for this, that they described all of the wounds on 620 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 1: his body and the oozing sores and the pain that 621 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: he was constantly in. Yeah. Now, the Greeks and Romans, 622 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: they had three different terms for leprosy. There was a 623 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: lepra because the scaly, non leprous skin disease, elephant titus, 624 00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: which was actually true leprosy, and as as well as philaresis, 625 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: a parasitic roundworm infection and also loose, a condition that 626 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: might link to terpuloid leprosy, described in the work of 627 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: a second century Greek Christian philosopher who was not actually 628 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,720 Speaker 1: widely read interest in his own time and virtually unknown 629 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: to thirteenth century Europe. So it's another case where there's 630 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: one pocket of understanding about leprosy, but it's not even 631 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: widely known at the time. Um. And you know, to 632 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: further complicate things, you get overlapping terminology and medical texts 633 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: available at the time that they lack the medical knowledge 634 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: to properly diagnose anything other than the classic just facially 635 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: disfiguring a leprosy that we've discussed here. So okay, So, 636 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: like I said, I'm sort of a layperson when it 637 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: comes to this. Let's go back to you mentioned bacteria 638 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: as being part of leprosy, So what actually causes It's 639 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,439 Speaker 1: a micro bacterium, right, yeah, yeah, let's yeah, we should 640 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 1: get down to brass tacks on that leprosy is caused 641 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 1: by the bacteria Microbacterium lepre and it's highly infectious, easily transmitted, 642 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: but only a small percentage of individuals actually thought clinically 643 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: significant disease. The incubation period between five and twenty years, 644 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: and the nutritional status of the infect it plays a 645 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: big role in whether it actually progresses in One of 646 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: the things we know about St. Francis was that he 647 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: was purposely limiting his nutrition as part of his life 648 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: of poverty. Yeah, he's living poor, he's he's also you know, 649 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,959 Speaker 1: going out in the wilderness, um, you know who often 650 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: involves fasting. Yeah, something to keep Yeah, yeah, all the 651 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: fasting that he did as well, that's true. I hadn't 652 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: thought about that far. He definitely wasn't like taking a 653 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 1: multi complex vitamin, No, definitely not so so. Yeah, diet 654 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: affects the progress, and progress is key in lepro mattis 655 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 1: leprosy again, they really disfiguring when the immune system is 656 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: just completely overwhelmed. The full range of disfiguring and debilitating 657 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: symptoms are possible. Nodules, mutilating lesions on the face, also 658 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: ripheral nerve infections. And this is the you know, the 659 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 1: one that the physicians of the day was the most 660 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 1: That's what I mean. I didn't get up close and personal, 661 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: but that was what I witnessed when I spent time 662 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: in Nepal. Yeah, this is the the just the wretched, 663 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: worst leprosy infection to get. But in tuberculoid leprosy, the 664 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: body's immune system effectively staves off the greater infection by 665 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: keeping the infestation isolated to the nerves. So you have flat, 666 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: slightly discolored patches on the skin with a decreased sensation. Again. Wait, 667 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: you know mentioned earlier how he supposedly did not feel 668 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: the pain of his his eye treatment. Yeah, this is 669 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: like if you're a Game of Thrones fan, this is 670 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: like what do they call it? Gray scale? Yeah, yeah, 671 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: that's where George Martin got the idea for that. From that, 672 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: either from there or no, it would have the other 673 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: timeline doesn't support it. But there was an episode of 674 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: Look Around You where they covered the case of Cobb. Oh, 675 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: I've not heard of this, um fabulous British comedy series 676 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: with kind of science vibe to it. Be an individual 677 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: whose skin was turning into rocks cobbles, and you see 678 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: him and he's basically a pile of rocks setting on 679 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 1: a sound stage talking o. Um. But anyway, pop culture, way, 680 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: as we deal with these horrific ailments that have destroyed mankind. 681 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, tuberculoid leprosy, the infected nervous system UM is 682 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: doing what it can to fight it off, to to 683 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: keep it isolated, but it can result also in neurotic pain, 684 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: decreased sensitivity in the toes and fingers. And between these 685 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: two types there's borderline leprosy, which you know kind of 686 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 1: a little bit of both, right, Uh and uh, you 687 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: know we mentioned those ailes, those eye ailments. Uh, it 688 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: also affects the eyes of leprosy cases involves some sort 689 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: of eye issues, infection of the cranial nerves. Uh, they 690 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: can cease blinking, producing in producing instance of civity to damage. Well, 691 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,959 Speaker 1: and not being able to blink would definitely explain why 692 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: he was constantly tearing up exactly. Also direct infection of 693 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: the eyes due to you know, damage from fingers, uh, 694 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: damage to the tear docks, excessive tearing, puss formation, and 695 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: again loss of finger digits because because again it's it's 696 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: it's affecting the nervous system and causing a decreased sensitivity 697 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: to toes and fingers, which in the case of someone 698 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: with leprosy, can result in uh, an easier injury of 699 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: those digits. So let's hone in on that for a minute. 700 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: As we referenced earlier, there's evidence that Francis himself was 701 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: missing digits and we know this because was it in 702 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds. They I'm not sure if they 703 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: exhumed his corps or not, but they examined his corpse 704 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: and we're able to find that he was missing several digits. 705 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: Is that correct? Based on descriptions and and later as 706 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: some actual photographs of St. Francis's skeletal remains, there's possible 707 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: evidence of leprosy and some of the missing finger bones, 708 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,439 Speaker 1: eight of ten metacarpals, those are the closest to the palm. Okay, 709 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: if you look down at your hand now are present, 710 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 1: and only sixteen of twenty eight philangial bones those are 711 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: the two outer bones of each finger. Only sixteen out 712 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: of eight are present on the body. So help me 713 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: to understand this for a second. Here if again, like 714 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: let's go with the d I f uh interpretation here 715 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,360 Speaker 1: for a moment, if uh wounds had manifested in his 716 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: palms and feet, as if nails had been driven through them, 717 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: or even let's say, for the sake of argument, that 718 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 1: he self mutilated and he hammered nails through his hands 719 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: and feet himself, wouldn't there be evidence of that as 720 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: well in the bones that they found Potentially? Yeah, I mean, like, 721 00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: you know, it just comes down to how it would 722 00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,680 Speaker 1: have been as Yeah, but but yeah, there was from 723 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:05,919 Speaker 1: what I was reading, there's no evidence of that from 724 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: from looking at the bones there's also nothing, nothing to 725 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: suggest that they were taking his relics or loss, because 726 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: that's probably some people's minds with the holy dude, someone 727 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: probably right, somebody's wearing a necklace of the pinky of St. Francis. 728 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: And then finally from the body, there also appears to 729 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: be an enlargement of nutrient for amina openings and bones 730 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 1: for nourishing blood vessels that could be possible evidence of 731 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: leprosy having ravaged body. Okay, so if we review these 732 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: diseases that we spoke about about possibilities, We talked about malaria, 733 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,720 Speaker 1: and talked about tuberculosis and leprosy, leprosy, there's a strong 734 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: case to be made. There seems to be a lot 735 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: of evidence pointing that way, both in the literature and 736 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: in actually looking at his body, that he had contracted 737 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: leprosy from the many years of working with the sick. 738 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: He was probably a leper himself. It sounds like for 739 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: almost a decade, maybe longer, because he had been ill 740 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: even before. In some cases there's there's accounts of his 741 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 1: illness before he even you know, took a vow of poverty. 742 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 1: Um maybe you know, who knows, Maybe that's why what 743 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: led him to taking a vow of poverty. Was that 744 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: he was what he was sick. So but at the 745 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: end of the day, it really seems like leprosy is 746 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: the most logical explanation. I think so. But based on 747 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: what we looked at, like, that's the one that seems 748 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: that there's the most evidence for, and it matches up 749 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 1: with his timeline the best. The physical evidence, what little 750 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: we have seems to seems to support it. Uh. And 751 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, and again fasting poor diet nutrition it it 752 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: would have made him even more susceptible to it. And 753 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,399 Speaker 1: he was. He was not a well man for most 754 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,799 Speaker 1: of his life anyway. Now, this isn't a discount that 755 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: this was a pretty saintly dude, as I would put it. Uh, 756 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it sounds like from all accounts 757 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,280 Speaker 1: that he was the real deal. He was genuinely very 758 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 1: uh generous man. Uh and who did live his life 759 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: by the teachings that he followed. Um. But that doesn't 760 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: necessarily mean that the de ific intervention was a result 761 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: of what we think of as his stigmata today. Yeah, 762 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: and you know, you look back on it, and I mean, 763 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 1: on one level, you can sort of look at the stigmata, 764 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: the holy stigmata that the tradition that follows is kind 765 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,600 Speaker 1: of a pr campaign because you know, at the time, 766 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:34,720 Speaker 1: leprosy was seen as as a disease of the soul. 767 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: It's not the kind of thing a holy man would have. 768 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: So to heal with this juxtaposition, you have to come 769 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: up with a mystical interpretation of what's happening. Why. It 770 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: comes down to, like, why do bad things happen to 771 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 1: good people? Why? Why does something this horrible happen to 772 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,359 Speaker 1: somebody who's doing such good work in the world. Yeah, 773 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,399 Speaker 1: and you say, well, maybe it's not a bad thing. 774 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 1: Maybe it's exactly Yeah, he's carrying the the he's carrying 775 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: the marks of Christ, who was also you know, wounded 776 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: in service to mankind. Yeah, that could be definitely the 777 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: way that is interpreted, especially because all of the research 778 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: that I saw, there was never a mention by any 779 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: of the other clergy that Francis was a leper. There 780 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: was just a mention of his various illnesses and the 781 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 1: symptoms that he had for you know, many years, right, 782 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: And you know, you know, naturally we can never know 783 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 1: for certain about any of this um but you know, 784 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,840 Speaker 1: when you look at this, this, uh, the supernatural explanation. 785 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,680 Speaker 1: When you look at the leprosy explanation there, you could 786 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,840 Speaker 1: argue they're kind of shades of the same thing, because 787 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,320 Speaker 1: presumably this, you know, the creator God in this scenario 788 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: would have sent the Sarah, who sent the Sarah would 789 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 1: have also created the protozoans responsible for the malaria or 790 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: the or the or the the bacteria that caused the leprosy. 791 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, in Francis seems to suggest as 792 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 1: much himself. Again he he never actually talked about his uh, 793 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, any mystical wounds, as we already mentioned. Right, 794 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,880 Speaker 1: he didn't flaunt it, right, but but but here's just 795 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: a little something that he said, uh in in the 796 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: Little Flowers of St. Francis, he says, my dear son, 797 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: be patient, because the weaknesses of the body are given 798 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: to us in this world by God for the salvation 799 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: of the soul. So they are of great merit when 800 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,440 Speaker 1: they are born patiently. So I mean, ultimately, you have 801 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,919 Speaker 1: a dude that suffers from leprosy working with lepers uh 802 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: in the name of God. And you know, if that's 803 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,800 Speaker 1: if that's the actual explanation, if that's actually what happened 804 00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,160 Speaker 1: instead of some supernatural explanation. It seems to me to 805 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: be perfectly in keeping with that with the values of 806 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: that faith. Now we've taken a look at patient zero. 807 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 1: This is the most I don't know popular isn't the 808 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,640 Speaker 1: right word I would use, but well known example of 809 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,879 Speaker 1: stigmata and history, and we've discussed two possibilities for its 810 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,720 Speaker 1: disease or deific interve and intervention. Uh. In the second 811 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: part of this episode, we're going to talk about to 812 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: other possibilities. There's psychosomatic possibilities and then there's also the 813 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,919 Speaker 1: possibility of self mutilation. Right, so we'll we'll get into 814 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,440 Speaker 1: the psychology and the science of those topics in the 815 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,120 Speaker 1: next episode. In the meantime, be sure to check out 816 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's where you'll 817 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: find all of our podcast episodes, videos, blog post links 818 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 1: out to those social media accounts, as well as the 819 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,520 Speaker 1: landing page for this episode, which will include links to 820 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: related content. So outside outside resources of note and you know, 821 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,400 Speaker 1: maybe you know a cool imager too. And again, if 822 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,320 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, were available 823 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 1: on Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler, and you can email us 824 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:44,080 Speaker 1: at Blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com 825 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does 826 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com