1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: And I'm doctor Addi Narukar, a physician and medical correspondent 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, mental health, 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: and burnout. We're here to peel back to layers around 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: why it's so easy for society to guard men's time 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: as if it's diamonds, and to treat women's time as 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: if it's infinite like sands. And whether you are partnered 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: with or without children, or in a career where you 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: want more boundaries, this is the place for you for 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: all family structures. We're here to take a time out 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim our time. 14 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: So add I've been thinking a lot about unicorn space, 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: this idea that, like the mythical eq wine, finding space 16 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 1: and time uninterrupted attention for things that we love is 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 1: often difficult because in our society we're often defined by 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: our roles. We're often taught to give our most valuable 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: currency away, our time and service of others. And I 20 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: remember Anne Marie Slaughter said something to me that I 21 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: thought was really powerful. She said that she feels in 22 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: community with all women across the globe because at some point, 23 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: every single one of us will be defined by our roles. 24 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: And so that gets me to something I want to 25 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: tell you about a keynote that I started to write 26 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: for a women's college that asked me to speak to them, 27 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: and the speech I delivered was probably a little bit 28 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: different than the one they thought I was going to deliver. Typically, 29 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: right command been speeches, or these speeches that we give 30 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: to the next generation are all about you can do 31 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: anything and you can be anything. But my speech was 32 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: called you only have ten years left to live. It 33 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: was inspired by Heidi Shriks what the Constitution means to me. 34 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: What I loved was that she embodied her younger self, 35 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: and so as I started the speech, I embodied the 36 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: twenty one year old Eve and a d D. I 37 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: was going to be president and senator, right because like 38 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: who stopped legislating around four o'clock? Like, you have so 39 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: much more time. Right, you can legislate during the day, 40 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: and obviously you can pass all of your executive orders 41 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 1: at night. But I'm not going to give up my 42 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: dream of being a nick City dancer, because why would 43 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: I could just fly Air Force one into New York 44 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: because it's such a short jaunt from d C, and 45 00:02:54,800 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: I'll do the twelve thirty shows. I start this way 46 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: because I want to remind our listeners of who you were, 47 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: say at or that time in your life when you 48 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: had that much potential, that much power, that much fire, 49 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: and what happens to it? Why did I call it 50 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: I only had ten years left to live, because by 51 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: the time I was thirty one, my fire had gone out. 52 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: It had been extinguished by my roles, by what society 53 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: expected of me, of the unpaid labor, that discipline and 54 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: screen time and the bathing and grooming of kids, and 55 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: on and on. So what happens to us where we 56 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: go from being told the lie that we could be 57 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: and do anything to the point where society rears its 58 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: ugly head. And how do we prevent that? For women especially? 59 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: There will always be rain, There will always be the 60 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: other backpack to unpack, or the extracurricular sports you have 61 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: to take your kids to. But as my favorite Vivian 62 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: Green quote, which can come off cheesy, but I still 63 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: think it's very important, right we don't wait for the 64 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: storm to pass. We have to learn to dance in 65 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: the rain. And this idea of unicorn space, which is 66 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: something different than self care and friendships, which are also important. 67 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: This space to reclaim who we were at our most vibrant, 68 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: are most powerful, our most passionate version of who we 69 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: were can always be there and can be reclaimed if 70 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: we've lost it. It's just about being intentional and thinking 71 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: about how we can do this within the current structures 72 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: of how we live in America today. We have to 73 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 1: understand the hurdles that our society is put in front 74 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: of us, the hurdles to that sustained attention to things 75 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: that we love. And one of those hurdles is the 76 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: permission to be interested in our own lives and interesting 77 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: to ourselves. That permission to be unavailable from our roles, 78 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: that idea that we are defined as individuals as opposed 79 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: to in relation to others. In fact, even in the 80 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: daily act of wearing our kids initials on our neck, 81 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: wearing mom on our neck, I have to say a 82 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: d D. I said to my kids, you know, I 83 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: need unavailability from my roles. I need unavailability to reclaim 84 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: what makes me me, And so I'm going to start 85 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: with actually wearing my own initial around my neck. And 86 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: my kids are so proud of me. They're like, my 87 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: mommy doesn't wear our initials, she wears her own. And 88 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: they know my name is E V. And my name 89 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: is powerful and I'm reclaiming it. Second is this idea 90 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: about guilt and shame. And the third is our ability 91 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: to use our voice, which we're talking about throughout this 92 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: whole season, that we get a chance to vocalize what 93 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 1: we need. Why are those things the idea that being unavailable, 94 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: a lack of guilt and shame, and using my voice 95 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: a deity? Why are those so hard to exercise in 96 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: everyday life. All of those things that you mentioned their 97 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: societal constructs that are put up on us and as women, 98 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: especially in multitasking is something that we do and it's 99 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: a real sense of a badge of honor to be 100 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: able to do everything so well, all at once, without 101 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: even breaking a sweat. But in fact, multitasking is bad 102 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: for the brain, and we don't talk about that enough. 103 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: In fact, when you look at the biology of the 104 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: brain and you look at how multitasking works, it is 105 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: divided attention. And if we want better brain health, better 106 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: mental health, a sense of resiliency, and a lack of burnout, 107 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: then we can't divide our attention in a million different ways. 108 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: We have to have that focused, sustained attention, which is 109 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: what the unicorn spaces. It has lots of brain benefits. 110 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: This idea of creativity not as a luxury or a 111 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: nice to have, but a necessity. And when we carve 112 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: out that unicorn space and live within our unicorn space, 113 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: we are giving our body and our mind a chance 114 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: to really be optimized. When we are fully inhabiting that 115 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: unicorn space, it improves our resilience, It decreases our stress, 116 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: it decreases our burnout. It also has lots of other 117 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: benefits the growth, mindset, innovation, problem solving, creating a sense 118 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: of meaning and purpose, imagination, creativity. They are actually very 119 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: important hard metrics that impact the bottom line when it 120 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: comes to our health, our mental health and physical health. 121 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: Creativity has been shown to improve anxiety and depression. It 122 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: changes the brain, It decreases our cortisol level, which is 123 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: a stress hormone, and it has a huge biological boost. 124 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: I wonder if I can interject with just the definition 125 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: of the flow state. Before we get into the secret 126 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: formula of creativity, I want to give props a d 127 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: D to me Hi. Chicks sent me Hi a hard 128 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: name to pronounce, but he is the founder, an originator 129 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: of the concept of the flow state. And what's so 130 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: beautiful about his work is he identified something that we've 131 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: all felt, wonder, the wonder of what it feels like 132 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: when you lose yourself in an activity. Now, children and 133 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 1: society are the conspirers against flow. They come in to 134 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: cut up our time into little bits. And actually the 135 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: idea that women that we deserve sustained attention for our 136 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: flow state, for things that we love to me is 137 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: how we redefine happiness, because what we found lately is 138 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: that and this is what the research shows, if you 139 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: focus on how to be happy, the pursuit of happiness 140 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: for happiness sake actually makes you more sad. And indeed, 141 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: you could talk more about that from a scientific perspective, 142 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: but what I will say is that happiness is a 143 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: clue that you found your unicorn space and whether it's 144 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: going back to your childhood, but if you had trauma 145 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: in your childhood, maybe it's looking forward to who you 146 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: want to be. However you get there, and we will 147 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: be talking about this a lot over the season. It 148 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: is not easy to inhabit your unicorn space. If it was, 149 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: we'd all be living to two hundred, frolicking in a 150 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: field of lavender. And I think it's also important to 151 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 1: recognize that any amount of time, even if it's five 152 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: minutes in that flow state, can have ripple effects for 153 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: our whole day, and actually biological effects. You may not 154 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: know when you're in getting into the flow state, but 155 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: you certainly know when you've gotten out. It's that sense 156 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: of timelessness in the present moment. We lose track of time, 157 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: we lose track of where we are, and there's many 158 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: ways to get there. It's not the same for everyone. 159 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: Probably one of my favorite benefits of getting into the 160 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: unicorn space is strengthening our sense of autonomy, which when 161 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,719 Speaker 1: we're married, with children and in many roles that can 162 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: be weakened, and we as human beings are meaning seeking, 163 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: purpose driven creatures. When we cultivate a unicorn space, get 164 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: into that sense of flow, we find our sense of 165 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: purpose and mastery within our cells, which in turn gives 166 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: us mastery in all of the other roles Eve that 167 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: you've already talked about. I think that's so beautiful because 168 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: some people say it's you know, simmering my signature sauce, 169 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: but without the expectation and the interruption of children and 170 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: a partner. I think the beauty is understanding what it 171 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: is for you, and it can change and it doesn't 172 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: always have to be the same, and it's not always 173 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: going to be easy, which we're going to be talking 174 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: about with our guests today, creativity expert Natalie Nixon. I 175 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: think the most beautiful thing that Natalie Nixon talks about 176 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: is the fact that creativity, the flow state, is not 177 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: just wonder. It also requires rigor. And that rigor is 178 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: what's hard because to find rigor and an activity to 179 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: learn to climb that mountain, to learn that signature sauce, 180 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: to learn about the gender division of labor, which was 181 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 1: my unicorn space for so long, does require this sustained attention. 182 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: I can't shake this idea that when we think about 183 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: the word creativity, we think of youth, but in fact, 184 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: creativity as we age becomes even more important. There was 185 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: a study done of older adults which found that when 186 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: older adults are engaged in creative pursuits, there is a 187 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: greater sense of connectivity in the brain, but also within 188 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: their selves. There's better cognitive functioning, and there's a greater 189 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: sense of well being. Now, this is not just nice 190 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: to have stuff. This is essential, critical stuff that we need. 191 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: That is to me the reason why I had to 192 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: write a whole second book on this topic because it 193 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: should be essential to your life. It is not optional. 194 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: But often we've dismissed this part of our life as 195 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: a nice to have with words I want to retire, 196 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: like hobby or vanity project or leisure or distractions. And 197 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: I will say that you said something very important about loneliness. 198 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: People ask me when I asked this question now two thousands, 199 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: this idea of what makes you you and what and 200 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: how do you share it with the world. A lot 201 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: of people ask me, well, what's the second question important for? 202 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: Why can't it just be what makes me me? Why 203 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: do you have to ask how do you share it 204 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: with the world? And the reason why is because there 205 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: is a distinction between self care, which is important, but 206 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: I often likened it to a more passive pursuit. I 207 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: mean it can be active like a spinning class, or 208 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: taking a walk with your dog, But it doesn't have 209 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: the same benefits as that connection, the sharing with your world. 210 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: That active pursuit is something different. That's what we're talking 211 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: about here. Those are baseline things that we should all have. 212 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: The next iteration and elevation up is this idea of 213 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: the active pursuit of creative self expression that makes you you. 214 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: Whether it be my friend who started as a baker 215 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: and now she's leveling up to making robotic cakes that 216 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: literally move, that's her unicorn space. The idea is the 217 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: sharing with the world, whether it's your neighbor, whether it's 218 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: becoming in a marathon group, whether it's getting ukulele recital 219 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: for five best friends. That flow state often comes in 220 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: the process of the connection of sharing, and that flow 221 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: stage is contagious. The unicorn space is contagious. When you 222 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: see your friends embodying that creativity or in that sense 223 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: of flow and they're really lit up, it makes you 224 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: want that too. So we're gonna be talking to Natalie 225 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: Nixon after the break about all of these things. I 226 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: cannot wait for you to hear what she has to say. 227 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: I'm excited to welcome today's guest, Natalie Nixon not only 228 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: a friend, she is a creativity strategist, global keynote speaker 229 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: and author of the award winning the Creativity Leap Unleashed Curiosity, 230 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: Improvisation and Intuition at Work. Hi Natalie, Hi Eve, It's 231 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: so good to see you and to be here. Thanks 232 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: for having me so before you came on, we were 233 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: talking a little bit about the hurdles to creativity, all 234 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: of those permissions we have to give ourselves to be unavailable, 235 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: to literally burn guilt and shame for spending sustained attention 236 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: on things that we love, and to use our voice. 237 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: And now I want to go into our shared passion, 238 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: which is creativity frameworks. Your wonder Rigor framework. We mentioned 239 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: it earlier as well as some of the findings around 240 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: how important not just curiosity is, but connection sharing your 241 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: creativity with others, whether it be chat chat on Instagram 242 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: like I got to see you last night during your 243 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: beautiful ballroom chance, or sending your crochet Harry Potter doll 244 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: to your aunt as my other friend just did. She 245 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: just completed her money and the last secret formula see 246 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: that I like to talk about, besides curiosity and connection 247 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: is the idea of completion, what it looks like to 248 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: actually complete something, as opposed to living in a graveyard 249 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: of unfulfilled dreams, as my friend once called it. So 250 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: to to go through the journey from curiosity to connection 251 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: a completion. I would love for you to tell a 252 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: little bit about how you help people to aim for 253 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: Curiosity is not a nice to have, but it must 254 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 1: have in their business and social and intimate lives. Sure. Well, 255 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: you know, Eve, I've a really loopy background in cultural 256 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: anthropology and fashion. I was a professor for sixteen years 257 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: and loved what I did until I didn't anymore. I 258 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: actually started falling in love with my side hustle, which 259 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: at the time that that was figure eight thinking, and 260 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: I was getting invited into companies to help them design 261 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: and build cultures of innovation. That was really an outgrowth 262 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: after I gave a ted Ex Philadelphia talk which was 263 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: essentially my PhD dissertation and plain English, I basically proclaimed 264 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: that the future of work is jazz and here's why 265 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: and here's how, and that talk really catapulted me into 266 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: getting invited into companies to help them become more improvisational, 267 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: which essentially me it is helping them to become more adaptive, 268 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: more experimental, more self organizing. This was probably about eight 269 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: years ago now, and everyone was chasing the eye word. 270 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: Everyone was trying to innovate, innovate, innovate, and well, that's 271 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: cool and that's fine. I was seeing that there's no 272 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: lingua franca for what we meant by innovation. We were 273 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: kind of like kept missing each other. And we, I 274 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: mean the collective corporate America. I know that I can't 275 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: critique a system without offering an alternative, another way to 276 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: be thinking about this. And so what my hunch was 277 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 1: telling me is that we were starting in the wrong place, 278 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: and we actually should be starting with creativity. However, as 279 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: you well know, Eve and add that if you lead 280 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: with creativity and the how old halls of corporate America, 281 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: let look at you like you have three hits. So 282 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: that began my journey of figuring out what might be 283 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: a simple and accessible way that I could help other 284 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 1: people who don't necessarily think that they're creative to think 285 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: about creativity in their work, to amplify it and the 286 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: ways that they do their work so that they can 287 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: ultimately innovate. And through a few years of really tinkering 288 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: with these ideas, I landed on this definition that creativity 289 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: is our ability to toggle between wonder and rigor to 290 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: solve problems and produce novel value. Along the way, I 291 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: came up with the definition that I like for innovation, 292 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,719 Speaker 1: which is that innovation is an invention converted into scalable value. 293 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: And that value could be cultural value, social value, financial value. 294 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: And what's that conversion agent what helps us go from 295 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: an invention to an innovation? It's creativity. I love that 296 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: toggling between wonder and rigor, tow words and frameworks that 297 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: you would never put next to each other, and yet 298 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: both are so essential for creativity. You know, you say, 299 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: I know it may feel more important to dig in 300 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: your heels in times of crisis and only focus on 301 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: practical survival mode stuff, And you're right. Creativity is incredibly 302 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: practical and it is crucial to survival. I laughed when 303 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: I read that, because we never think of creativity as 304 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: something that is practical or something that's necessarily a survival skill. 305 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: Creativity isn't nice to have, It's a luxury. It's something 306 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: to do when all of your to do list is 307 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: done and all those boxes have been checked off, but 308 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: you really turn that notion on its head. And I 309 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: would love for you to tell us a little bit 310 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: more about why you think creativity is a survival skill, 311 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: especially for the audience that is listening, that is very 312 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: much in survival mode right now. So I launched the 313 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: Creativity Lead in the middle of the beginning phases of 314 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: the COVID nineteen pandemic in June, and I have to 315 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: tell you that there were many days I would wake up, 316 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, right before I go to and I was thinking, Gosh, 317 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: when people are dying, when people are losing their jobs, 318 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: when people are going through so much ambiguity and uncertainty, 319 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: is creativity a luxury? Am I offering up a mental 320 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: model that will be additive and helpful to the ways 321 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: we will be able to navigate this time and going forward. 322 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: You know, as you said, it's not a luxury. It 323 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: is actually more essential than ever to hone your creativity 324 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: capacity or your c Q your creativity quotient as I 325 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: like to call it. It's important more than ever to 326 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: develop that capacity and to hone it because creativity is 327 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: a competency. It's something that we can exercise and get 328 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: better at. It's something that when we look at our 329 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: own children, and we think about our own childhoods. We 330 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: have so many great examples of our ability to toggle 331 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: between wonder and rigor to solve problems. What has happened 332 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: is that through traditional mainstream ways of being educated, we 333 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: get the signals that we should air on the side 334 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: of solutions versus process. Creativity is also not a luxury 335 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: because when I think about some of the more underprivileged, 336 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: marginalized groups in our society, oh my gosh, it's full 337 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: of create creative moments and output. Because, as it turns out, 338 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: creativity loves constraints. Creativity loves constraints on our time, it 339 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: loves constraints on money, it loves constraints on people resources. 340 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: It's actually just as we know that our greatest learning 341 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: happens when we fail, when we mess up big time, 342 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: it's when we have those strengths as in a pandemic, 343 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: that creativity really flourishes. Wow, I'm sort of freaking out 344 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: on that right, this idea that creativity love constraints because 345 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: you sort of think you have to be completely free 346 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 1: before you can live a creative life. But the idea 347 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: that similar to what Natalie is saying, is that in 348 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: my research, this idea that creativity can only come for 349 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: the privileged or unicorn space is really only for the 350 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: top echelon. It was almost the opposite. It was the 351 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: freed to calos of the world, and this idea that 352 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: through oppression and and trauma, as we know that some 353 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: of the most creative acts have been done and it 354 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: is subversive and we have to push through to do it. 355 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: Not only is it not reserved for the top echelon 356 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: of privilege, but we can't let its stay there. No, 357 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: we cannot. I love how you just reference the word 358 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: subversive because and some of my kino what I'm talking 359 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: about improvisation, I meet people where they are by first 360 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: acknowledging that most of us are terrified to improvise. And 361 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: that's in part because when we think about improvisation, we 362 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: think about about really impressive jazz musicians who do like 363 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: phenomenal in the moment, in in flow, majestic innovation and 364 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: output of sound. Or we think about the great comedic 365 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 1: artists of Saturday Live and what they're able to do 366 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: in the moment. It's a been intimidating, but I remind 367 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: people that you hack your way through every day like 368 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: probably between breakfast and lunchtime, you have had to hack 369 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: your way through supporting a spouse, a child, a colleague, 370 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: a client. And then if you look even further back, 371 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: we were really great improvisers as kids. There's an image 372 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: I show of a basketball hoop in the form of 373 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: a milk crate, of a punched out bottom, and it's 374 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: hanging under a side that says no ball playing here. 375 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: And I love that photograph because that's such a great 376 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: example of creativity loving constraints. Because in a lot of 377 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: our cities, in poorer communities, where there's no grassy playground 378 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 1: and and net hoops to play ball or light at night, 379 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: do you see that all the time? That's incredible hacking 380 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: and creativity. I talked about how back in the late 381 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: seventies early eighties we saw the greatest divestment of funding 382 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: for for arts education or public schools. And what did 383 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: African American male teams do. They turned a turntable into 384 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: a percussion instrument, and scratching is now one of the 385 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: most iconic sounds in hip hop, which is the largest 386 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: music genre in the world right now. It's just all 387 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: these examples of how in these pressure cooker moments, we 388 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 1: can be quite subversive in some really extraordinary ways. You 389 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: talk a lot about this idea of creativity being hardwired, 390 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: that we as human beings are hardwired for a creativity, 391 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: and yet it's so difficult for some of us to 392 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: cultivate because it seems like if we're hardwired for creativity, 393 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: then it should just bubble up like it does for kids. 394 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, so we see that that hardwiredness. And I'll 395 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: just go back to kind of breaking down how I 396 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: define creativity to explain why I say we're hardwired to 397 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: be creative, if you accept or just kind of hold 398 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: for a moment, that creativity is our ability to toggle 399 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: between wonder and rigor to solve problems. Well, well, let's 400 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: break down what each of those dimensions are. Wonder is 401 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: about awe and audacity and deep curiosity and asking these 402 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: big blue sky what if questions. Wonder is also about 403 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: pause ing, because what I remind people is that you 404 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: can't wonder going eighty miles. You just can't, Like you 405 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: will burn out. You've got to sit your behind down 406 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: and pause and space out for a bit. Right. So, 407 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: if you think about the attributes of wonder being about 408 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: that curiosity, that expansive thinking. That is something that really 409 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: is innate to us when we're left alone, when we 410 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: get off the carousel of of career chasing or whatever 411 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: your particular carousel is, and we definitely see it evident 412 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: in our own children and when we reflect back on 413 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: our own childhoods. The rigor piece, you know, Rigor is discipline. 414 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: It's focus, it's mastery of fundamentals. It's time on task, 415 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: it's constraints. It's not particularly sexy, and it is essential. 416 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,239 Speaker 1: It's also very solitary work. When we tend to think 417 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: about creative we only think about the wonder dimension. We 418 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: we forget that the rigor dimension is also part of it. 419 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: Now does the rigor dimension come naturally to us? Not always, 420 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: But at the same time, if you're so fortunate blessed 421 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: to have a parent who can read to you as 422 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: as a little toddler, you don't go from that to 423 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: like in my case, devouring Nancy Drew Mysteries um overnight. 424 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: It's through the rigor of the repetition of being focused 425 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: on that, and the seed of that is this desire 426 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: to get to that next level. So if we dig 427 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: a little more deeply into those those dimensions of wonder 428 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: and rigor, I think we begin to see how we're 429 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: heart wired. The other thing I just want to add 430 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: to that is I have another framework that I like 431 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: to share about creativity, which just the three eyes, which 432 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: is to say that the way we can consistently toggle 433 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: between wonder and rigular solve problems is through improvisation, inquiry, 434 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: and intuition. We've talked about inquiry or curiosity. We've talked 435 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: a bit about improvisation. The intuition peace is what I 436 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: call pattern recognition, and as it turns out, we are 437 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: hardwired to into it because we have in our bodies 438 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: something called the vegas nerve. It's the second longest nerve 439 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: in our body. The first longest nerve is the spinal cord, 440 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: and the vegas nerve extends from my cranium down through 441 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: our hearts into our gut. And so we literally have 442 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: this interior human antenna that lights up before the rationality 443 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: can even set in that helps us sense make and 444 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: say we should go left, not right. I should work 445 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: with her and not him. I should be with this person, 446 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: not with that person. Right. So, so the cool thing 447 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: about intuition is that it never leaves us. It's like 448 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: a radar sonar. A muscle has to be exercised. We 449 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: have to use it. The more we use it, the 450 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: louder and clearer it gets. The less we use it, 451 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: the flabb ear and dimmer it gets. So if you 452 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: come along with me and my my definite should of 453 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: creativity and also incorporate those three eyes, that intuition piece, 454 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: which is this way of exercising it is another example 455 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: of that hardwiredness of creativity within us. That was actually 456 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: my question of you know, if it's hardwired, and yet 457 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: if it's difficult to cultivate, how do we actually cultivate it? 458 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: And it's through the three eyes, Through the three eyes yes, 459 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: by consistently committing to learning how to ask new different questions, 460 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: actively listening self inquiry as well as asking others, which 461 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: can be pretty hard if we're not used to it. 462 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: Improvisation which is about being experimental, adaptive, and the intuition 463 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: and I think the a way to do it, not 464 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: the only way, but I have found is a technique 465 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: I like to share. People be a clumsy student of 466 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: something anything. I'm a clumsy student of social ballroom dance 467 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: and I love it. Because I literally practice the three 468 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: eyes all the time, I have to into it more 469 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: when I'm dancing with a dance partner. If I'm not 470 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: getting something, I've got to how to reframe the question. 471 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: It helpful when I have a range of teachers. I 472 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: observe how my peers who are better than me, how 473 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: they do things, and I improvised quite a bit and 474 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: that transfer. Those are activating neural synapses in my brain 475 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: which transfer over to my daily work to help me 476 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: be more humble about exercising the three eyes in my 477 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: daily work. What's your favorite ballroom type dance to do 478 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: right now? Is the chacha? Because my Bombom dance to 479 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: do that. They do something called a showcase, and it 480 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: was my first showcase I participated in, and I thought 481 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: the chasha was going to be easy. But the shasha 482 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: is so precise, it's quick, there's a fluidity to it. 483 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: But the beauty of it comes in the syncopation of 484 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: how you decide to linger on a certain movement and 485 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: then followed up with rapid succession with other movements. I 486 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: love Latin, but I also love foxtrot, which is an 487 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: example of a smooth a dance. It's it's beautiful as well. 488 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: I just love to dance. I love the lynday and 489 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: the tango. So one day maybe we can we can 490 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: dance together. I would love that. And the tango is hard, 491 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: so hard, it's so beautiful. Yes, I was trained as 492 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: an Indian classical dancer and did ballet for decades. Oh 493 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: my god, we should all three dance together because I 494 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: love this communal unicorn space. This is the metaphor that 495 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: we began this episode with, which was we can't wait 496 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: for the storm to pass. We have to learn to 497 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: dance in the rain. And I will say, Natalie, your 498 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: work to give us permission to be creative in many 499 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: different forms in a wondrous and rigorous way is why 500 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: I've always been drawn to your work and I want 501 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: to thank you for sharing your insights. Thank you both 502 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: so much for having me. This has been a real pleasure. 503 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: I loved it. Natalie. Where can people find you? People 504 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: can learn more about my speaking and advisory work at 505 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: Figure eight thinking dot com. That's the word figure the 506 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: number eight thinking. Hi, it's me Eve, and I want 507 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: to tell you about my latest book, Find Your Unicorn Space. 508 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: So you're playing fair and have established equity in your home. 509 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: But now what it's time to find your Unicorn Space. 510 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: My new book will help you set personal goals, rediscover 511 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: your interests, and reclaim the creative expression of self that 512 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: makes you uniquely you. Find your Unicorn Space is a 513 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: mix of research space, how to advice, and big picture 514 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: inspirational thinking. I hope it can show you a clear 515 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 1: path to reclaim your permission to be unavailable and manifest 516 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: your own unicorn space. Find your Unicorn Space is available 517 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: now wherever books are sold. So every episode of this 518 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: podcast will be ending with an action atem for you 519 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: are listeners that we call a time out. This is 520 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: really a time for you to focus on yourself and 521 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: reflect on what you're hearing today. And we're starting the 522 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: conversation first with ourselves and then ultimately with our partners 523 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: and others. So a d D I'll say that one 524 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: of my unicorn spaces is this podcast with you, because, 525 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: as we discussed with Natalie, creativity does not have to 526 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: be browsing Blick for paint and and art brushes. It 527 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: really is a combination of these amazing three things of curiosity, 528 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: where we are curious about issues around what happens to 529 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: women when we're defined by our roles, where we can 530 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: come here together and connect as spiritual friends and share 531 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: ourselves with the world. And then the most important thing 532 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: is the completion, the fact that we actually did this. 533 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: We've been talking about this for a while, but that 534 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 1: we are completing this. It may not be perfect, we're 535 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: new at this, but we're uploading it for listeners. Were 536 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: completing something. And that's, as my friend Amanda says, the 537 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: opposite of a graveyard of unfulfilled dreams. What else for 538 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: you feels like unicorn space? Besides this podcast, I'm hoping 539 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: I'm putting the words in your mouth that this is 540 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: one of your unicorn spaces. So I totally agree. I 541 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: think this podcast and the conversations that we have with 542 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: each other and these amazing guests make me really deeply 543 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: reflect on my life and bring a new sense of 544 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: energy and joy to all of those areas, which I'm 545 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: so grateful for. You know, when you first asked me 546 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: the question a TD, what is your unicorn space? You 547 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: think of these self care activities that you've done forever, 548 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: maybe things that you've done as a kid, and you 549 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: go right into that. It's a reflex, right because we 550 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,959 Speaker 1: often think of creating space for ourselves as self care, 551 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: because that's what society has taught us. But what I 552 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: love about really crafting this concept of unicorn space is 553 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: this idea that you're creating a space for yourself, but 554 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: then you are giving it out to the world to 555 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: help better yourself, but equally better the world. And so 556 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: when I reflected a little bit more deeply on what 557 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 1: my unicorn spaces, my favorite part of being a doctor 558 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: is my ability to communicate with patients and really patient education. 559 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: There's nothing greater for me. I went into medicine for 560 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: the human story and the power of the human story. 561 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: So there's no greater joy for me than when I'm 562 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: talking to a patient and I'm explaining something complex or difficult, 563 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: like a really new on scientific principle, and then that 564 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: aha moment for them when the light really goes off 565 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: in their eyes, like they get it. But what I 566 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: hear from you saying is that you're living at a 567 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: really sweet spot between me and happiness. My wish for 568 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: our listeners, and what I hope are prompt will be 569 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: this week, is that they can start understanding with us 570 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: how powerful it is to sit at that intersection of 571 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: meaning and happiness. So this week's time out exercise is 572 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: a fantasy for those of us who have been journaling 573 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: alongside these exercises. Pull out your pen and paper when 574 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: you can if you're not driving, and answer this question. 575 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: If you were given a year on a deserted island, 576 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: thank survivor, but with every privilege in the world, all 577 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: the internet you needed, all the food you needed, your 578 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: kids are completely fine when you get home a year later. 579 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: The fantasy. Just go with it. What would you do 580 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: with that year? And the reason why I asked that 581 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: is because I asked this to many people in my 582 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: Unicorn space research. And while I heard cool things like 583 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: I would cross pollinate a mango and a pineapple and 584 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: call it a mang apple, what I didn't hear was 585 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: get botox, get a manicure, drive an expensive car, make 586 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: more money, work more m HM. And I think that 587 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: reflection of understanding what intrinsically motivates us can give us 588 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: the tools to bring it back to real life. So 589 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: that's the time out first, the big dream of what 590 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 1: you do in that year, and really dive deep into 591 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: that fantasy and what would you do with all of 592 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 1: that time? And energy and life force, and then think 593 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: about how you can incorporate all of that goodness into 594 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: your day to day life. And in our next episode, 595 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: we're going to start looking at the practical tips, tricks 596 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 1: solutions to actually bring you some found time by redistributing 597 00:38:53,800 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: domestic responsibilities and adding fairness to your home. Thank you 598 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: for listening to Time Out, a production of I Heart 599 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 600 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find your Unicorn Space. 601 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 1: Follow me on social media at Eve Rodsky and learn 602 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: more about our work at fair Play Life. And I'm 603 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: doctor add No Rucar, a Harvard physician with a specialty 604 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: and stress resilience, burnout, and mental health. Follow me on 605 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 1: social media at dr add ne Rucar and find out 606 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: more about my work at doctor add dot com. That's 607 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: d r A d I t I dot com. Our 608 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine team is Amanda Farren, Aaron Stover, and Jennifer Yonker. 609 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: Our I Heart Media team is Ali Perry, Jennifer Bassett, 610 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: and Jessica Crimeschitch. We hope you all love taking a 611 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: much needed time out with us today. Listen and subscribe 612 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: to time out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, 613 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows.