Speaker 1: Hey, Wisecrack, it's your host and producer Jody. What you're
Speaker 1: about to hear is a conversation between myself and the
Speaker 1: godfather of true crime POD's Pain, Lindsay Pain has been
Speaker 1: a big champion of Wisecrack from the jump, so we're
Speaker 1: discussing behind the scenes of the investigation, creator, producer, questions
Speaker 1: and how ed and I recently took his show on
Speaker 1: the road and performed at Crime Con in Denver. As always,
Speaker 1: thank you for listening and enjoy this bonus episode.
Speaker 2: Jody, It's good to see you again. We had a
Speaker 2: blast and Crime Con and seeing the live show again
Speaker 2: at stand up is always, I mean every time, I
Speaker 2: feel like it's funnier and more intense. And also, congratulations
Speaker 2: on becoming our first Tenderfoot number one comedy podcast, which
Speaker 2: is wild to say because we're all true crime, but
Speaker 2: this is a story that falls in multiple different genres
Speaker 2: and I love it for that. But yeah, thanks for
Speaker 2: letting me be here to talk to you about the show.
Speaker 3: No, thank you.
Speaker 1: I know I just saw you in Denver and I'm
Speaker 1: only partially recovered. I don't know about you, but it
Speaker 1: was really exhilarating. You know, it was a crime conference
Speaker 1: and people came to laugh, and I think they did
Speaker 1: and they also got immersed in the story, So I
Speaker 1: think it was a It was a pretty great show.
Speaker 1: And I do think that you are more engaged and
Speaker 1: nervous than either Ed or I saw you pacing backstage
Speaker 1: and listening.
Speaker 3: You're so dialed in.
Speaker 2: It's funny because I almost I get like excited where
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's it's like the like the little kid
Speaker 2: inside me is like I picture myself on stage or something,
Speaker 2: and I'm sort of, you know, living vicariously in the
Speaker 2: moment through through Ed in like a weird excitement.
Speaker 4: But I mean it's fun. He's such a pro.
Speaker 2: You know, I aspire to do a stand up set
Speaker 2: because that's so incredibly difficult, like I can't even imagine.
Speaker 4: But funny you picked up on that.
Speaker 1: I think I could tell you that you're I can
Speaker 1: tell you're a comedy fan as well, because you were
Speaker 1: like with the timing as much.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: I know, I know I'm supposed to answer some questions
Speaker 1: for you, But what was your reaction the first time
Speaker 1: that you heard the set? Because you heard it, I
Speaker 1: guess probably four years ago for the first time.
Speaker 2: Or five I mean, it's one of those things where
Speaker 2: obviously I didn't know what to expect. He opens it
Speaker 2: up very just kind of nonchalant, and you're like, who
Speaker 2: is this guy? And he kind of already has this
Speaker 2: sort of disarming, funny demeanor, which I really enjoyed and
Speaker 2: kind of makes you sit back and feel comfortable laughing.
Speaker 2: I just remember the way that he would pivot from
Speaker 2: just this off the wall hilarious sort of joke into
Speaker 2: the sort of serious elements of the story, and how
Speaker 2: smooth that was and how it wasn't necessarily jarring. Was
Speaker 2: it was kind of like all of the the comedy
Speaker 2: part of his set and his character sort of prepared
Speaker 2: you for the depth of what was to come, and
Speaker 2: to me, it sort of made it a better human story.
Speaker 2: And I really just was drawn to that part of it,
Speaker 2: and from that moment forward in the set, I was
Speaker 2: glued into the storytelling, and every time it got funny,
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, thank God, I can I can
Speaker 2: breathe a little comic relief, right, We could all use
Speaker 2: that with the dark content. But I want to ask
Speaker 2: you a question actually, because people who haven't listened to
Speaker 2: this yet, which if you if you know me, and
Speaker 2: you haven't listened to it, I'm mad at you. But
Speaker 2: when I was trying to describe this show to people,
Speaker 2: it's I'm like, how do I do this?
Speaker 4: You know, like what do you say this is?
Speaker 2: And so I want to ask you what you're saying
Speaker 2: it is just to the person has no clue what
Speaker 2: you're talking about.
Speaker 3: It's so tough.
Speaker 1: I've been on this beat for almost nine years now
Speaker 1: and I still struggle with the log line, right right.
Speaker 1: I guess for people who are interested in true crime,
Speaker 1: it's a to me, a near death experience that is
Speaker 1: an eyewitness account of a double homicide wrapped in a
Speaker 1: sixty minute stand up set and the investigation subsequent to
Speaker 1: hearing that set. Yeah, I guess that's like, you know,
Speaker 1: just varied, like you know, ten thousand foot view of
Speaker 1: what it is.
Speaker 3: I do think it's so much more, but that's that's
Speaker 3: how I pitch it.
Speaker 1: And then I think for people who are comedy fans
Speaker 1: who are not necessarily in the crime genre, I just
Speaker 1: think it's a wild ride. It's a very storytelling heavy,
Speaker 1: kind of reminds me of like Tig Nataro, Mike Burbiglia,
Speaker 1: Hannah Gadsby where they take, you know, really deep things
Speaker 1: and still make them funny. And those two feelings of
Speaker 1: laughing and tragedy are very close to each other, you know,
Speaker 1: going up and going down.
Speaker 2: I mean, my good friend Mike, who's a producer here
Speaker 2: at Tenderfoot. You know, he's been with me for years
Speaker 2: and you know we've investigated cold cases and you know
Speaker 2: a lot of times you used to get deep into
Speaker 2: the trenches of you know, like a tragedy for a
Speaker 2: lack of a better word, and it can be really heavy.
Speaker 4: But we sort of have.
Speaker 2: Developed over the years just internally our own sort of
Speaker 2: gallows humor with things, just like to ourselves about our
Speaker 2: own sort of experiences, and it's almost like a way
Speaker 2: of processing and managing something really heavy. And I feel
Speaker 2: like wisecrack embodies that. I think it's cathartic to see
Speaker 2: Ed sort of live out loud the experience and like
Speaker 2: is able to reflect on a stage from a point
Speaker 2: of view that is kind of poking fun at himself
Speaker 2: and making light of a situation for the idea of
Speaker 2: how impactful and traumatic it actually was. And I think
Speaker 2: that's powerful because I think we all do that to
Speaker 2: a degree and it's it's a good thing to do
Speaker 2: if you do it right.
Speaker 3: You know, I think you nailed it. Like it.
Speaker 1: I kind of wonder if cops, detectives, criminal litigators talk
Speaker 1: and have that gallows humor as well privately, right, because
Speaker 1: it's so it's just depressing to deal with every day.
Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but what I found
Speaker 1: at least, like speaking to some of the official people
Speaker 1: on the case, particularly those who were in Brett's trial,
Speaker 1: they were very funny, I think, and I think that
Speaker 1: that's how everybody copes, right, And I think the other
Speaker 1: side of the coin is like you don't want to
Speaker 1: I think when you try to talk about this story,
Speaker 1: you don't want to to. You know, two people were
Speaker 1: gruesomely murdered and then a third. It's really sad, it's upsetting,
Speaker 1: and you know, having those two feelings of laughing and
Speaker 1: horror to some degree, you know it can be offensive.
Speaker 1: So I think like Ed does Bravo to Ed. I
Speaker 1: think he does a great job interweaving those feelings. But
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like, yeah, we all have that
Speaker 1: secret vocabulary who work in some of the dark, dark arts.
Speaker 4: Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean, tell me about the first time you ever
Speaker 2: stumbled upon this set in the UK. I mean there
Speaker 2: was a time when I was first played this and
Speaker 2: I first saw it from ED, but by then this
Speaker 2: was a conceptualized thing, right, So tell me the first
Speaker 2: time you stumbled upon this and you're like, what is this?
Speaker 2: I want to know more, Like, tell me about your experience.
Speaker 3: With the I was, I just quit my job, and.
Speaker 4: It's always a good start, you know exactly.
Speaker 3: You know, my stock was down, I had left.
Speaker 1: I quit my job, and it was making a lot
Speaker 1: of like I was doing like UFO, conspiracy, bigfoot crime
Speaker 1: shows for Discovery, and part of my job there was evaluating,
Speaker 1: you know, what we should make. And you know, I
Speaker 1: always tended to gravitate towards the funnier stories, like the
Speaker 1: scammy crime stories, and I was always pitching those and
Speaker 1: always told like, hey, that's not really what we do here.
Speaker 1: You know, those emotions really don't live together. So when
Speaker 1: I heard ED for the first time, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this kid, for lack of a better word, this kid
Speaker 1: cracked it. Like those two feelings do live together, and
Speaker 1: you can tell that story together.
Speaker 3: So I was. I guess my feeling was I was vindicated.
Speaker 1: You know everything that you kind of always felt instinctually,
Speaker 1: as at least as a creative person and a producer.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, it can exist, and he figured out
Speaker 1: a way to tell it, you know, I was it
Speaker 1: was felt amazing. And then the second question was, what
Speaker 1: are the odds This guy goes back to his hometown
Speaker 1: one night to perform a charity gig. The kid who
Speaker 1: bullied him his whole life happens to be back in
Speaker 1: their two childhood homes that are next door to each
Speaker 1: other or around the corner from each other, and then
Speaker 1: he shows up at his doorstep, like what are the odds?
Speaker 1: So then it was suspicion. After that, I was like
Speaker 1: I need you know what I mean, like, I need
Speaker 1: to find out.
Speaker 4: It's a very wild tale.
Speaker 3: Let's let's fact check this, you know, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: I thought that was probably to you, it probably felt
Speaker 2: like the dots connected, and you're like, this is what
Speaker 2: I was trying to this is what I'm talking about,
Speaker 2: Like this is the kind of thing.
Speaker 4: Right then you're like, okay, too good to be true.
Speaker 2: I mean, so did you approach him afterwards or like,
Speaker 2: how did that work when you first came to him?
Speaker 4: Literally, Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1: The hardest part was first of all, getting him to
Speaker 1: respond to me as.
Speaker 4: A universal as well.
Speaker 1: Right, you know, it's hard to first of all approach
Speaker 1: people who are subjects who've had traumatic things happen to them,
Speaker 1: and then also someone who you know, adds a comedian
Speaker 1: and works in entertain So I think, you know the
Speaker 1: way that we kind of portray it, I think it's
Speaker 1: at episode two where I'm chasing him around that is
Speaker 1: two hundred percent accurate. I think we might have actually
Speaker 1: cut even more times that he ghosted me and didn't
Speaker 1: show up at a bar or coffee shop to talk.
Speaker 1: So I think that was that was a big challenge.
Speaker 1: But then the second piece was telling him that he
Speaker 1: just told a true crime story. He just thought he
Speaker 1: told a funny set that was deeply personal.
Speaker 2: That's also like a true crime documentary you just outlined
Speaker 2: right there exactly.
Speaker 1: And then once that information was given and I think
Speaker 1: we established a little bit of trust, that was when
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, now I got to get to
Speaker 1: work fact checking. And I will say the first thing
Speaker 1: that really struck me was that he you know, in
Speaker 1: the set, you don't he doesn't really talk too much
Speaker 1: about the crime. It's really about his perspective inside the
Speaker 1: four walls of his house next to the crimes.
Speaker 2: So Wisecrack is essentially a true crime story weaved within
Speaker 2: the framework literally of a stand up comedy set. And
Speaker 2: those two things, just by nature don't necessarily always go together,
Speaker 2: which is why this is a unique project. So for
Speaker 2: you as a producer and as you dug deeper into
Speaker 2: the actual crime elements of this story and you know
Speaker 2: the tragedy that the tragedy that happened, how did you
Speaker 2: sort of create a balance of treating both stories with
Speaker 2: care and you know, getting Ed's story across and just
Speaker 2: his magnetic his magnetic style and way of talking about
Speaker 2: this stuff with the sort of journalistic approach that you're
Speaker 2: probably tiptoeing to make sure you're you're handling with care.
Speaker 4: What was that balance and how did you strike that exactly?
Speaker 1: I think the the only way to do something like
Speaker 1: this is to have some really good partners, you know that,
Speaker 1: Like you've got a great team on up and vanished.
Speaker 1: You know, my team was Charles Forbes. He was in
Speaker 1: charge of narrative for the storytelling, and I was playing
Speaker 1: journalist honestly, like and we kept each other in check
Speaker 1: as we went, so I was kind of the record
Speaker 1: keeper and fact checker and Charles was the one that
Speaker 1: was beating out the story structure. And we did this
Speaker 1: together because you're right, like you want to do service
Speaker 1: to the wonderful story that Ed tells and how he
Speaker 1: tells it, but then in the podcast, like you know,
Speaker 1: it's our job to match that. So I think that
Speaker 1: was the if we succeeded at all, it was because
Speaker 1: we did it together, me and Chuck, and I think
Speaker 1: that it's really been a threesome between me, Charles and
Speaker 1: Ed this entire time. So if we if we struck
Speaker 1: the balance, that's you know, you gotta gotta have good friends.
Speaker 2: That's very true, right, Yeah, tell me the true, don't
Speaker 2: sugarcoat it. I mean, I feel like the stand up
Speaker 2: set is already great, But if you're going to make
Speaker 2: a podcast about this and you're going to dive deeper
Speaker 2: into the crime that happened, and you're fact checking and
Speaker 2: you're interviewing people, likely for the first time, it becomes
Speaker 2: an entirely different beast. And so in a lot of ways,
Speaker 2: you have to make sure you cross all your t's
Speaker 2: and dot your eyes. Very well in that lane in
Speaker 2: order to do service to both parts of this right
Speaker 2: it would it could fall apart if this falls short
Speaker 2: over here. So in a lot of ways, I would
Speaker 2: imagine you almost had to go even harder in that
Speaker 2: direction in terms of the journalistic part of this whole project.
Speaker 1: Entirely, and also mean being an American, a nosy American,
Speaker 1: and a small British down to go down great either.
Speaker 1: So I think there was you know, I guess the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it took a really long time
Speaker 1: to make this, but I think it was mostly because
Speaker 1: it took a long time for trust, to build trust
Speaker 1: with all the subjects, to build trust with each other editorially,
Speaker 1: to build trust like all that stuff. And I will
Speaker 1: say this too, we failed so many times. I don't
Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed to tell you how many cuts Steven and
Speaker 1: Alex did on the tender foot side of things, because.
Speaker 3: Again, like it, it is pretty new.
Speaker 1: There's no real roadmap for something like this, and so
Speaker 1: but I think that everyone's willingness to just do it
Speaker 1: over again and make changes like that was, if anything,
Speaker 1: was the real reason for success. And then just again
Speaker 1: keeping each other honest and making sure that because a
Speaker 1: lot of time passes. It's very easy to forget. I
Speaker 1: will be very frank with you. I'm working on a
Speaker 1: bunch of other crime stories, as I know you are,
Speaker 1: and so I think that was another piece of it,
Speaker 1: was making sure that all the information and record keeping
Speaker 1: was super organized. I have a murder binder, and it's
Speaker 1: then I brought it to color I bring it everywhere, bring.
Speaker 2: It everywhere, the bus to the coffee shoper on it.
Speaker 4: It's it's pink, pink murderbinder.
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean it kind of goes with the concept
Speaker 2: of this show, you know, like, you know, give yourself
Speaker 2: a little breathing room with this heavy content. Here Exactly
Speaker 2: when he came to gaining trust, you know, I guess
Speaker 2: from the journalism side of things and interviewing people and
Speaker 2: even gaining the trust of ed, how did you go
Speaker 2: about doing that? Was it more of a you know,
Speaker 2: time is your best friend kind of thing, or was
Speaker 2: it you know, persistence, like did you just hey, I
Speaker 2: know you might be spooked about me now, but I'm
Speaker 2: going to try again later, or I'm gonna show you something.
Speaker 2: You know, For me, I always have found that if
Speaker 2: I want somebody to be vulnerable on the mic about a.
Speaker 4: Very intense or sensitive story.
Speaker 2: Then I have to be sort of willing to offer
Speaker 2: the same and that just seems like a universally fair
Speaker 2: exchange for you. What was that process like in terms
Speaker 2: of gaining that trust and what does that mean for
Speaker 2: you in this project?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a perfect thing.
Speaker 1: It's it's if you're asking someone to be honest with you,
Speaker 1: you need to be honest with them first. So I
Speaker 1: think starting in that place is always the best way.
Speaker 1: And kind of felt like this was like the longest
Speaker 1: like time I've ever dated all these people. It was
Speaker 1: like dating like I just I just wore them down
Speaker 1: over time. Every time they forgot about me, I popped
Speaker 1: back up and said, like, oh, I've done some more.
Speaker 3: Can I show you this? Can I get your reaction?
Speaker 1: And being a consistent person in their life across you know,
Speaker 1: at least for ed across like eight and a half years.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, I've also been
Speaker 1: in his family's life that long too. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been texting his mom since then, And so I
Speaker 1: think that, yeah, you're you're courting these people to some degree,
Speaker 1: but in an incredibly trans as transparent as you can be.
Speaker 1: That I think was the goal, and it seemed to have.
Speaker 3: Worked quite well.
Speaker 2: What do you feel like has been the most rewarding
Speaker 2: part of this? Now that you've completed this and it's
Speaker 2: well received and it's a beautiful, amazing, very gripping podcasts
Speaker 2: all around the board, what do you feel like has
Speaker 2: been the most rewarding part of this?
Speaker 3: Thank you? That's really that means a lot coming from you.
Speaker 4: Specific I mean, it's it's awesome.
Speaker 1: It's definitely different, you know what. I honestly haven't had
Speaker 1: a chance to let it think in. So now you're
Speaker 1: asking me how do I feel about it?
Speaker 2: And like, well, we're like okay, Like or maybe it's
Speaker 2: a rewarding moment throughout the process. Maybe it's not an
Speaker 2: entire reflection of you know, I'm sure party still feels
Speaker 2: like you're working on this.
Speaker 1: So no, absolutely, I mean, you know how it is,
Speaker 1: you never stop, like, there's always new leads, there's always
Speaker 1: new people popping up the more that they hear your work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's the fact that it's a it's a grind,
Speaker 1: it never ends. But I think the most rewarding moment
Speaker 1: for me, again you can't take away the accolade that
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier. Number one true crime cast in comedy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that really says it all,
Speaker 1: like we crossed over genres and hopefully we're you know,
Speaker 1: intriguing and entertaining two sets of audiences now. And that
Speaker 1: was really that was really rewarding to hear.
Speaker 2: To me, it was cool because not in every true
Speaker 2: crime podcast, especially do you get the opportunity to sort
Speaker 2: of gauge an audience's reaction live. And so when he
Speaker 2: was able to do the set at Crime Con to
Speaker 2: a thousand plus people, that was really cool to see
Speaker 2: people obviously laugh at the funny parts, but also be
Speaker 2: super immersed in every facet of this story and really
Speaker 2: kind of feel for all the people involved and kind
Speaker 2: of had this real time emotional connection which you don't
Speaker 2: always see as a podcaster. And so, I mean, what
Speaker 2: was it like kind of I mean, I was obviously
Speaker 2: pacing around super giddy back there, but I'm sure you
Speaker 2: were like, Okay, all this has built to this moment
Speaker 2: and you're seeing people really engage with it.
Speaker 1: It's crazy to get the live feedback like Ed gets
Speaker 1: as a stand up because like you and I are.
Speaker 1: I think we think about things a long time, we
Speaker 1: pursue things a long time, and then people join in
Speaker 1: the comments and tell us how we messed up, like
Speaker 1: I think that to be able to hear the or
Speaker 1: the oh my God, and then most of all the
Speaker 1: questions like god. This when Ed performs, it elicits a
Speaker 1: response from an audience I've personally never seen. I've been
Speaker 1: to lots of stage shows before, and lots of comedy
Speaker 1: and people in Atlanta You'll remember someone ran up on
Speaker 1: stage in the middle of the set and hugged him
Speaker 1: when he was literally mid sentenced. It elicits like and
Speaker 1: other people. It also digs up so much trauma too,
Speaker 1: from like all the other questions and answers that come up.
Speaker 1: So it's very rewarding to hear, but also like it's
Speaker 1: so interesting because I man, are we all going through it?
Speaker 1: That's really what I've learned from that feedback is that
Speaker 1: people they can relate to this. There's so many ways
Speaker 1: to relate to this story, and everyone wants to tell
Speaker 1: Ed now or me how they connect to it, whether
Speaker 1: it be through an illness, whether it be through you know,
Speaker 1: domestic violence, whether it be the and it's crazy. Honestly,
Speaker 1: it's really crazy to see that as feedback so quickly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I think is probably the coolest silver lining
Speaker 2: of the genre acrossover here, which makes it the most
Speaker 2: special is that it can resonate kind of on a
Speaker 2: different level with any sort of struggle that you've experienced
Speaker 2: and kind of find this common ground just kind of
Speaker 2: seeing somebody else process this and go through that.
Speaker 4: There's so many different layers to it that you know.
Speaker 2: That's struggle, hardship, that's relatable across the board, right, and
Speaker 2: so to kind of feel like seen in a way
Speaker 2: as an audience is you know what I find so
Speaker 2: unique about it, And that is one of the coolest
Speaker 2: parts about making a podcast like this is that you
Speaker 2: were able to connect with people in a different way.
Speaker 4: It's not just obviously it's a cool show.
Speaker 2: It's it's fun, it's crazy, it's dark, but it's also
Speaker 2: something that's uniquely human and that resonates.
Speaker 4: And I love that about it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And you know, I think Ed
Speaker 1: took a real risk. I mean, he put it all
Speaker 1: on the line. He was the most human. He involved
Speaker 1: his family, his mom, his dad. He laid it all
Speaker 1: bare about their past transgressions and failings for each other,
Speaker 1: his brothers like, and his neighbors and his tiny town
Speaker 1: like I mean, I really right. It is the most
Speaker 1: human of all human stories. And bullying being I think
Speaker 1: a big theme too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: God, I was bullied. I think we've all been bullied
Speaker 1: to some degree. Hey, we're from the same what's up
Speaker 1: with people from mayor yet being bullied?
Speaker 2: Remember the bullies of the bus stop? You know, totally
Speaker 2: that was They love to pick on me too, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very relatable for sure, very very human to
Speaker 1: use your words.
Speaker 2: I think, very very merry out of Georgia.
Speaker 4: No shade there. So this is a Wisecrack.
Speaker 2: Is a six episode podcast, and I'm just going to
Speaker 2: put this out there now.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: I assume that if you're listening to this right now,
Speaker 2: you've listened to the show, But if you haven't made
Speaker 2: it very deep into the podcast yet, I would stop
Speaker 2: now and finish it so I don't spoil anything for you,
Speaker 2: because I want to kind of jump towards the end
Speaker 2: of the series and pick your brain about a couple things.
Speaker 2: So we were end the series with this cliffhanger. I'll
Speaker 2: call it that the idea that you know, what if
Speaker 2: Ed is lying right without too many spoilers or you know,
Speaker 2: however you want to say it, like, let's talk about that,
Speaker 2: because you mentioned that early on, like wanting to validate
Speaker 2: some of this stuff, and that would always be a
Speaker 2: fear right. And obviously an audience is going to react
Speaker 2: like they're going to say, everyone's lying all the time
Speaker 2: about everything does really matter?
Speaker 4: But what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I honestly think that the one thing that we
Speaker 1: were successful with is staying true to the journey Jody.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about her in the third person, her emotional
Speaker 1: journey as an investigator. Yeah, me, me, But that was
Speaker 1: all accurate. I was very skeptical the whole time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you'll hear eventually that I do have a pretty
Speaker 1: deep and confrontation with Ed about some of my skepticism
Speaker 1: and how I guess like we almost lost that chance
Speaker 1: to have a transformation and for him to see this
Speaker 1: a little bit differently. Again, no spoilers, but but you
Speaker 1: know there's a moment that we scrap like and you'll
Speaker 1: hear it, and that was all authentic, and that was
Speaker 1: years of build up of me checking all the boxes
Speaker 1: in one column and then saying, but there's this question here,
Speaker 1: so and so said this, and so I certainly think
Speaker 1: that that, again, all of that was very accurate to
Speaker 1: the journey of trying to uncover and trust.
Speaker 3: It was like again, it was like it was like dating.
Speaker 1: I can't come up with a better analogy. It was
Speaker 1: just about there's there's a certain level of trust that
Speaker 1: was that is required in the end to like really
Speaker 1: see through this journey. And I hope that that's ie
Speaker 1: that's something that people enjoy too, because you know, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's not a who done it?
Speaker 3: We know who done it?
Speaker 1: You know, after episode two, you know there's no who
Speaker 1: and then we learned about the what.
Speaker 3: It's really a wide journey.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you're into, like I guess, the psychology
Speaker 1: and push and pull of investigator against subject who happens
Speaker 1: to also be a very entertaining professional comedian, like this
Speaker 1: is definitely something that I think will be very interesting
Speaker 1: in the final episodes.
Speaker 2: I mean, I could imagine that after several years of
Speaker 2: playing investigative journalists, being an investigative journalist and being.
Speaker 4: On the ground and doing all the real work and.
Speaker 2: Research and making the connections, interviewing people. You have put
Speaker 2: a lot of time, energy, emotion, thought into this and
Speaker 2: if there's a moment that it culminates into this feeling
Speaker 2: that you've been tricked or conned, you know, that would
Speaker 2: probably feel pretty bad. And at the same time, if
Speaker 2: you're challenging ed and he's like, I'm telling the truth,
Speaker 2: that probably equally feels not good. So what was that
Speaker 2: sort of like culminating moment, God or one of them?
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, no, No, I mean I'm thinking very
Speaker 1: specifically of a confrontation that you'll hear, and I think
Speaker 1: it's presently and I think it's.
Speaker 3: An episode five right now.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I again, I think there was a lot
Speaker 1: of mistrust that had built up that needed to be addressed.
Speaker 1: But ultimately, you know, I think we just assumed so
Speaker 1: much bad stuff about each other, him, me, me of him, us,
Speaker 1: of strangers on the internet, et cetera. And in the
Speaker 1: end it, you know, thankfully, it was a journey that
Speaker 1: was worth taking for me and and also for him.
Speaker 1: But there was at one point I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I've spent all this time.
Speaker 3: What if it's kind of massive please no, please know.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, I guess that's still a story,
Speaker 1: but but maybe not worth telling. And you know, so, yeah,
Speaker 1: is that part where you're you know, as a host
Speaker 1: and investigator, your buttet drops out and you're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, what have I done?
Speaker 3: And you will hear that there's a big piece of that.
Speaker 4: And yeah, and that's that's very real.
Speaker 2: I mean, it is hard to trust people you know
Speaker 2: that you don't know or even know sometimes and you know,
Speaker 2: part of that trust on your end even is kind
Speaker 2: of taking a little bit of a leap of faith
Speaker 2: because you know you're not going to definitively know right away,
Speaker 2: maybe for a long time until you get to a
Speaker 2: certain point, and.
Speaker 4: That that is a risk that we all have to take.
Speaker 2: In getting closer to anybody or anything right exactly. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: we don't want to sit here and never learn anything new,
Speaker 2: but we also don't want to walk around being you know,
Speaker 2: clueless and taken advantage of in a place where that
Speaker 2: happens in the world, you.
Speaker 1: Know, totally, it's a fine line from being thinking critically
Speaker 1: and you know, you just don't want to feel naive.
Speaker 3: You don't want to feel like a fool.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I think that we take that critical thinking skill,
Speaker 1: especially someone who thinks I think in like a doomsday
Speaker 1: scenario from it right, and.
Speaker 3: Really, yeah, it could spiral. It really can.
Speaker 1: And it's also like you know, checking yourself in the
Speaker 1: work and saying, Okay, here's what we know, here's what
Speaker 1: we don't know, here's what I need to ask, here's
Speaker 1: where I need to go. I need to now not
Speaker 1: talk to this person and exclusively understand this perspective. So
Speaker 1: hopefully we you know, we did that.
Speaker 4: Decently, I think. So do you believe ed now?
Speaker 3: I'd lose no sleep over it.
Speaker 1: No, seriously, I you know, you look back at it
Speaker 1: and like you hear some of the conversations we have
Speaker 1: and we're like, oh, that was really harsh, Tove like
Speaker 1: that wasn't nice. But but no, there's no there's no
Speaker 1: question in my mind, and I you know, it's really
Speaker 1: now that I look back on it. I think there's
Speaker 1: some cultural differences too. I was talking to some of
Speaker 1: my British friends and say, talking about the story, and
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, yeah, people from Essex, they don't
Speaker 1: they don't talk about their feelings and they certainly don't
Speaker 1: talk about anything that's happening in the town or their lives.
Speaker 1: It's very you know, the currency is saying there and just.
Speaker 3: Living your life privately.
Speaker 1: So to force an entire town of people to do
Speaker 1: the thing that is so deeply unnatural on things that
Speaker 1: they just haven't done for centuries, I get it.
Speaker 3: That was a big piece of that too.
Speaker 1: So I do look back on that and think, you know,
Speaker 1: there's that stiff upper lip that I was fighting against
Speaker 1: as well. But that doesn't necessarily mean people are liars.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of victims in this story, the murders,
Speaker 2: for one, and I feel like as a whole, just
Speaker 2: the impact as you dissect it, it is very expansive,
Speaker 2: just sort of all the different intricate ways this impacted
Speaker 2: all different kinds of people in this town, family, even
Speaker 2: down to listeners across the ocean and feeling it in
Speaker 2: a brand new way. What have you found in terms
Speaker 2: of just the impact this entire event and what's transpired
Speaker 2: afterwards has had on the community ed maybe even yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm still waiting to hear back from
Speaker 1: the community, but I can speak. I certainly can speak
Speaker 1: for myself and say this whole experience and learning about
Speaker 1: this particular case. I we don't talk about any official
Speaker 1: medical diagnosis because the killer that we talk about in
Speaker 1: the story never officially had one. But mental health is
Speaker 1: the one thing that I keep that I've learned and
Speaker 1: I've taken with me.
Speaker 3: I think that so.
Speaker 1: It's so complicated, especially in a socialized medical system like
Speaker 1: the UK. All these agencies are working together, but also
Speaker 1: have their own goals, right they need to close cases,
Speaker 1: they have boxes to check, and sometimes I can do
Speaker 1: a uh huh, and sometimes I can do a big
Speaker 1: disservice to people too. Sometimes it's a tremendously helpful, But
Speaker 1: I don't know if in this case that was the situation.
Speaker 1: To be really frank with you, and it wasn't that
Speaker 1: anyone was not doing their job. But you've got to
Speaker 1: figure out a way for all the agencies to talk
Speaker 1: to each other, if that makes any sense. And you know,
Speaker 1: I really look at Brett's father, Pete, who we will
Speaker 1: meet in future episodes, as the real winner here. You
Speaker 1: expect one thing to come out of that conversation, and
Speaker 1: it's completely the opposite. And I think that one of
Speaker 1: the things that he was very successful with was managing
Speaker 1: his learning how to manage his feelings and processing things
Speaker 1: because he experienced it the worst. So I think that
Speaker 1: he really comes out So I find him very inspirational
Speaker 1: in general. That's the one thing I take with me.
Speaker 4: So what do you take from that?
Speaker 2: Like you're seeing somebody kind of overcome something and handle
Speaker 2: something extremely difficult, and wow, that's admirable, I would assume
Speaker 2: right like very much.
Speaker 1: He did he did the work like that's that's the answer.
Speaker 1: He spent a lot of time having uncomfortable conversations with
Speaker 1: professionals until he was able to come out on the
Speaker 1: other side, and that took years, and but that was
Speaker 1: something And again, I don't think that's something that naturally,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, a sixty year old person in
Speaker 1: general would be was taught to do or be willing
Speaker 1: to do. And I think that's really impressive on his part.
Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier how special it was people coming up
Speaker 2: to you all after the show, and I'm sure you
Speaker 2: get emails and stuff like that, just different listeners connecting
Speaker 2: in various ways to this story. I guess who do
Speaker 2: you hope this podcast reaches? What do you what do
Speaker 2: you hope people gain through this? As a listener.
Speaker 4: Ideally, M that's such a good question.
Speaker 1: I think that I do think that this is not
Speaker 1: a true crime one on one story, if that makes
Speaker 1: any sense, because it's much more of a Towards the
Speaker 1: end we really get into I think we're about to
Speaker 1: dovetail into these episodes where it becomes such a character
Speaker 1: study of personality and how one reacts to things, if
Speaker 1: that makes any sense, traumatic things. So I definitely think
Speaker 1: that if you're somebody who is maybe not even interested
Speaker 1: in true crime or comedy, if you're interested in I think,
Speaker 1: just generally how humans respond to crazy things. Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: about to We're about to take you there, for sure.
Speaker 1: So I do I think that that that's what makes
Speaker 1: it certainly universally rewarding as an endpoint for sure in
Speaker 1: the story.
Speaker 3: And I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just I hope that we do justice to the victims. Obviously,
Speaker 1: that's the number one thing to me. I think that
Speaker 1: this story got really swept under the rug in the
Speaker 1: UK for whatever reason. Who knows why things happen the
Speaker 1: way they do, and you know, in the news media,
Speaker 1: But but I really think that it's important to honor
Speaker 1: them specifically. It really turned into the Brett Show at
Speaker 1: some point because he was such a mysterious type of murderer. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: and the crime itself was very confusing, but you know
Speaker 1: Gillian Phillips, David Oaks, and then ultimately you know other
Speaker 1: people too that are involved in this. But like, I
Speaker 1: really that's that's that's the one thing. Honestly, their memory
Speaker 1: acknowledging it happened, I think is the most important thing.
Speaker 1: And then I think, you know, also, you're gonna feel
Speaker 1: a lot of feelings and I hope and I hope
Speaker 1: they make you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I love that. Well, Jody, this has been
Speaker 2: amazing you and the rest of the team. Charles ed himself,
Speaker 2: the rest of the Tenderfoot team, super.
Speaker 4: Proud of all you all you guys. It's truly a
Speaker 4: one of a kind.
Speaker 2: I think you put together a blueprint for a new
Speaker 2: kind of true crime show that has really resonated with
Speaker 2: listeners and myself and is extremely special and I think
Speaker 2: a positive impact on a lot of people.
Speaker 4: So great job that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: And I mean, like again, I don't think that anybody
Speaker 1: the part of this journey was just like pitching the
Speaker 1: story around and seeing who would want to tell it,
Speaker 1: and the fact that you and Donald said yes, let's
Speaker 1: tryin let's go. Yeah, I mean, like, thank you for
Speaker 1: being on the crazy train. I think that's a big
Speaker 1: part part of taking the risk is finding somebody who
Speaker 1: who knows the genre but is also willing to take
Speaker 1: risks and push stories. So again, we wouldn't We would
Speaker 1: not be here if it weren't for you guys, And
Speaker 1: I know that Ed, Charles and myself are so appreciative.
Speaker 1: So thank you guys so much, and I hope everyone
Speaker 1: enjoys it.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much. This has been awesome.
Speaker 2: Uh, if you haven't listened to the podcast yet, I
Speaker 2: don't know why you're here, so definitely gonna listen to
Speaker 2: it now or re listen to it. But Jody, this
Speaker 2: has been amazing. Charles, excellent job, Ed, you're the man. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Wisecrack is an amazing body of work. And I might
Speaker 2: just go binge it again myself because every time I
Speaker 2: find a new Easter Egg in there, So please do give.
Speaker 3: Me another download.
Speaker 4: I will