WEBVTT - Inside Wisecrack (with Payne Lindsey and Jodi Tovay) 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.640 Hey, Wisecrack, it's your host and producer Jody. What you're 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.680 about to hear is a conversation between myself and the 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.720 godfather of true crime POD's Pain, Lindsay Pain has been 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.639 a big champion of Wisecrack from the jump, so we're 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:21.320 discussing behind the scenes of the investigation, creator, producer, questions 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:23.560 and how ed and I recently took his show on 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.400 the road and performed at Crime Con in Denver. As always, 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:33.280 thank you for listening and enjoy this bonus episode. 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.440 Jody, It's good to see you again. We had a 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:41.080 blast and Crime Con and seeing the live show again 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:43.839 at stand up is always, I mean every time, I 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:48.440 feel like it's funnier and more intense. And also, congratulations 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:53.040 on becoming our first Tenderfoot number one comedy podcast, which 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.080 is wild to say because we're all true crime, but 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:00.880 this is a story that falls in multiple different genres 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:04.399 and I love it for that. But yeah, thanks for 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.559 letting me be here to talk to you about the show. 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:07.800 No, thank you. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.399 I know I just saw you in Denver and I'm 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:14.160 only partially recovered. I don't know about you, but it 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.440 was really exhilarating. You know, it was a crime conference 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.120 and people came to laugh, and I think they did 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.360 and they also got immersed in the story, So I 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.559 think it was a It was a pretty great show. 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.680 And I do think that you are more engaged and 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:31.800 nervous than either Ed or I saw you pacing backstage 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:32.360 and listening. 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:33.280 You're so dialed in. 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.960 It's funny because I almost I get like excited where 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:43.039 I'm like, it's it's like the like the little kid 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.120 inside me is like I picture myself on stage or something, 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.560 and I'm sort of, you know, living vicariously in the 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.680 moment through through Ed in like a weird excitement. 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.960 But I mean it's fun. He's such a pro. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.360 You know, I aspire to do a stand up set 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:05.880 because that's so incredibly difficult, like I can't even imagine. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:07.840 But funny you picked up on that. 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:12.040 I think I could tell you that you're I can 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.880 tell you're a comedy fan as well, because you were 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:16.800 like with the timing as much. 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:17.640 Uh. 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.200 I know, I know I'm supposed to answer some questions 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.000 for you, But what was your reaction the first time 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.160 that you heard the set? Because you heard it, I 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.760 guess probably four years ago for the first time. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.480 Or five I mean, it's one of those things where 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.600 obviously I didn't know what to expect. He opens it 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:39.079 up very just kind of nonchalant, and you're like, who 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.680 is this guy? And he kind of already has this 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:46.280 sort of disarming, funny demeanor, which I really enjoyed and 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.959 kind of makes you sit back and feel comfortable laughing. 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:54.000 I just remember the way that he would pivot from 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:58.840 just this off the wall hilarious sort of joke into 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.800 the sort of serious elements of the story, and how 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.320 smooth that was and how it wasn't necessarily jarring. Was 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:10.000 it was kind of like all of the the comedy 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:13.720 part of his set and his character sort of prepared 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.480 you for the depth of what was to come, and 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.800 to me, it sort of made it a better human story. 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.480 And I really just was drawn to that part of it, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:25.640 and from that moment forward in the set, I was 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.079 glued into the storytelling, and every time it got funny, 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:30.760 I was like, Oh, thank God, I can I can 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.079 breathe a little comic relief, right, We could all use 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:39.200 that with the dark content. But I want to ask 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.960 you a question actually, because people who haven't listened to 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:44.880 this yet, which if you if you know me, and 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:49.080 you haven't listened to it, I'm mad at you. But 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.800 when I was trying to describe this show to people, 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.200 it's I'm like, how do I do this? 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.480 You know, like what do you say this is? 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:00.880 And so I want to ask you what you're saying 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:02.480 it is just to the person has no clue what 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:03.160 you're talking about. 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:04.600 It's so tough. 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:07.960 I've been on this beat for almost nine years now 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.280 and I still struggle with the log line, right right. 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.760 I guess for people who are interested in true crime, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.400 it's a to me, a near death experience that is 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:24.520 an eyewitness account of a double homicide wrapped in a 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.719 sixty minute stand up set and the investigation subsequent to 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.600 hearing that set. Yeah, I guess that's like, you know, 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.880 just varied, like you know, ten thousand foot view of 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:37.320 what it is. 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:39.080 I do think it's so much more, but that's that's 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:39.920 how I pitch it. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:42.839 And then I think for people who are comedy fans 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:47.360 who are not necessarily in the crime genre, I just 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.240 think it's a wild ride. It's a very storytelling heavy, 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:55.320 kind of reminds me of like Tig Nataro, Mike Burbiglia, 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.839 Hannah Gadsby where they take, you know, really deep things 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:02.839 and still make them funny. And those two feelings of 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.480 laughing and tragedy are very close to each other, you know, 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:06.760 going up and going down. 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.960 I mean, my good friend Mike, who's a producer here 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.360 at Tenderfoot. You know, he's been with me for years 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.440 and you know we've investigated cold cases and you know 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.040 a lot of times you used to get deep into 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:23.280 the trenches of you know, like a tragedy for a 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:27.279 lack of a better word, and it can be really heavy. 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:28.760 But we sort of have. 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.719 Developed over the years just internally our own sort of 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.840 gallows humor with things, just like to ourselves about our 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.360 own sort of experiences, and it's almost like a way 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:46.240 of processing and managing something really heavy. And I feel 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:53.520 like wisecrack embodies that. I think it's cathartic to see 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.560 Ed sort of live out loud the experience and like 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.640 is able to reflect on a stage from a point 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:06.080 of view that is kind of poking fun at himself 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:10.040 and making light of a situation for the idea of 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.320 how impactful and traumatic it actually was. And I think 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.000 that's powerful because I think we all do that to 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:18.800 a degree and it's it's a good thing to do 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:19.560 if you do it right. 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.040 You know, I think you nailed it. Like it. 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:30.080 I kind of wonder if cops, detectives, criminal litigators talk 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.200 and have that gallows humor as well privately, right, because 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.000 it's so it's just depressing to deal with every day. 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:40.680 And I don't know about you, but what I found 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.039 at least, like speaking to some of the official people 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.599 on the case, particularly those who were in Brett's trial, 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:51.080 they were very funny, I think, and I think that 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.680 that's how everybody copes, right, And I think the other 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:56.520 side of the coin is like you don't want to 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.239 I think when you try to talk about this story, 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.280 you don't want to to. You know, two people were 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:09.680 gruesomely murdered and then a third. It's really sad, it's upsetting, 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.760 and you know, having those two feelings of laughing and 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.240 horror to some degree, you know it can be offensive. 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:19.440 So I think like Ed does Bravo to Ed. I 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:24.200 think he does a great job interweaving those feelings. But 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:25.760 I kind of feel like, yeah, we all have that 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:29.400 secret vocabulary who work in some of the dark, dark arts. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:31.800 Right, absolutely. 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.000 I mean, tell me about the first time you ever 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:36.800 stumbled upon this set in the UK. I mean there 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:38.360 was a time when I was first played this and 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:41.120 I first saw it from ED, but by then this 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:45.040 was a conceptualized thing, right, So tell me the first 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.640 time you stumbled upon this and you're like, what is this? 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.560 I want to know more, Like, tell me about your experience. 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:58.520 With the I was, I just quit my job, and. 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.640 It's always a good start, you know exactly. 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.440 You know, my stock was down, I had left. 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:05.960 I quit my job, and it was making a lot 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.840 of like I was doing like UFO, conspiracy, bigfoot crime 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:15.520 shows for Discovery, and part of my job there was evaluating, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.320 you know, what we should make. And you know, I 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.920 always tended to gravitate towards the funnier stories, like the 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.480 scammy crime stories, and I was always pitching those and 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.560 always told like, hey, that's not really what we do here. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.880 You know, those emotions really don't live together. So when 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.320 I heard ED for the first time, I was like, Oh, 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.319 this kid, for lack of a better word, this kid 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:39.800 cracked it. Like those two feelings do live together, and 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:41.240 you can tell that story together. 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.359 So I was. I guess my feeling was I was vindicated. 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.280 You know everything that you kind of always felt instinctually, 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.800 as at least as a creative person and a producer. 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:52.839 You're like, oh, it can exist, and he figured out 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.200 a way to tell it, you know, I was it 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.960 was felt amazing. And then the second question was, what 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:01.160 are the odds This guy goes back to his hometown 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.520 one night to perform a charity gig. The kid who 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.040 bullied him his whole life happens to be back in 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:09.040 their two childhood homes that are next door to each 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.760 other or around the corner from each other, and then 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:14.400 he shows up at his doorstep, like what are the odds? 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.720 So then it was suspicion. After that, I was like 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:17.880 I need you know what I mean, like, I need 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:18.480 to find out. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:19.680 It's a very wild tale. 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.160 Let's let's fact check this, you know, yeah exactly. 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.840 I thought that was probably to you, it probably felt 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:29.440 like the dots connected, and you're like, this is what 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:31.520 I was trying to this is what I'm talking about, 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:32.800 Like this is the kind of thing. 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.000 Right then you're like, okay, too good to be true. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.960 I mean, so did you approach him afterwards or like, 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.960 how did that work when you first came to him? 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.199 Literally, Yeah, I think. 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.120 The hardest part was first of all, getting him to 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.200 respond to me as. 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:50.240 A universal as well. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:53.040 Right, you know, it's hard to first of all approach 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.440 people who are subjects who've had traumatic things happen to them, 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.240 and then also someone who you know, adds a comedian 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.880 and works in entertain So I think, you know the 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:03.760 way that we kind of portray it, I think it's 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.920 at episode two where I'm chasing him around that is 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.959 two hundred percent accurate. I think we might have actually 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.240 cut even more times that he ghosted me and didn't 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:14.120 show up at a bar or coffee shop to talk. 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.000 So I think that was that was a big challenge. 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.319 But then the second piece was telling him that he 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.640 just told a true crime story. He just thought he 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.640 told a funny set that was deeply personal. 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.880 That's also like a true crime documentary you just outlined 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:33.160 right there exactly. 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:35.679 And then once that information was given and I think 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:39.439 we established a little bit of trust, that was when 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.040 I was like, Okay, now I got to get to 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:44.400 work fact checking. And I will say the first thing 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.640 that really struck me was that he you know, in 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:49.360 the set, you don't he doesn't really talk too much 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.280 about the crime. It's really about his perspective inside the 0:10:52.280 --> 0:11:00.360 four walls of his house next to the crimes. 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.839 So Wisecrack is essentially a true crime story weaved within 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:20.160 the framework literally of a stand up comedy set. And 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:24.400 those two things, just by nature don't necessarily always go together, 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.480 which is why this is a unique project. So for 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.400 you as a producer and as you dug deeper into 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.120 the actual crime elements of this story and you know 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.520 the tragedy that the tragedy that happened, how did you 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:42.520 sort of create a balance of treating both stories with 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:47.440 care and you know, getting Ed's story across and just 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:53.280 his magnetic his magnetic style and way of talking about 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.480 this stuff with the sort of journalistic approach that you're 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:01.120 probably tiptoeing to make sure you're you're handling with care. 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.880 What was that balance and how did you strike that exactly? 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:06.880 I think the the only way to do something like 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.600 this is to have some really good partners, you know that, 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.360 Like you've got a great team on up and vanished. 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.800 You know, my team was Charles Forbes. He was in 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.080 charge of narrative for the storytelling, and I was playing 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.360 journalist honestly, like and we kept each other in check 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.160 as we went, so I was kind of the record 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.080 keeper and fact checker and Charles was the one that 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.080 was beating out the story structure. And we did this 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.400 together because you're right, like you want to do service 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.680 to the wonderful story that Ed tells and how he 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.840 tells it, but then in the podcast, like you know, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.080 it's our job to match that. So I think that 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.280 was the if we succeeded at all, it was because 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.240 we did it together, me and Chuck, and I think 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.160 that it's really been a threesome between me, Charles and 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.840 Ed this entire time. So if we if we struck 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.800 the balance, that's you know, you gotta gotta have good friends. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.760 That's very true, right, Yeah, tell me the true, don't 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.760 sugarcoat it. I mean, I feel like the stand up 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.040 set is already great, But if you're going to make 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.160 a podcast about this and you're going to dive deeper 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.720 into the crime that happened, and you're fact checking and 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.880 you're interviewing people, likely for the first time, it becomes 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:19.640 an entirely different beast. And so in a lot of ways, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.840 you have to make sure you cross all your t's 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.640 and dot your eyes. Very well in that lane in 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.439 order to do service to both parts of this right 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:34.679 it would it could fall apart if this falls short 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.800 over here. So in a lot of ways, I would 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.400 imagine you almost had to go even harder in that 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.840 direction in terms of the journalistic part of this whole project. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.240 Entirely, and also mean being an American, a nosy American, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.000 and a small British down to go down great either. 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.080 So I think there was you know, I guess the 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.280 end of the day, it took a really long time 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.200 to make this, but I think it was mostly because 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.640 it took a long time for trust, to build trust 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.119 with all the subjects, to build trust with each other editorially, 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.439 to build trust like all that stuff. And I will 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.560 say this too, we failed so many times. I don't 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.280 I'm embarrassed to tell you how many cuts Steven and 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.400 Alex did on the tender foot side of things, because. 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.600 Again, like it, it is pretty new. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.080 There's no real roadmap for something like this, and so 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.040 but I think that everyone's willingness to just do it 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:28.640 over again and make changes like that was, if anything, 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.400 was the real reason for success. And then just again 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.760 keeping each other honest and making sure that because a 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.680 lot of time passes. It's very easy to forget. I 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.400 will be very frank with you. I'm working on a 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.120 bunch of other crime stories, as I know you are, 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.400 and so I think that was another piece of it, 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.880 was making sure that all the information and record keeping 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.720 was super organized. I have a murder binder, and it's 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.680 then I brought it to color I bring it everywhere, bring. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:57.520 It everywhere, the bus to the coffee shoper on it. 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.720 It's it's pink, pink murderbinder. 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.320 Okay, I mean it kind of goes with the concept 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.080 of this show, you know, like, you know, give yourself 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.640 a little breathing room with this heavy content. Here Exactly 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.680 when he came to gaining trust, you know, I guess 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.760 from the journalism side of things and interviewing people and 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.680 even gaining the trust of ed, how did you go 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.520 about doing that? Was it more of a you know, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.680 time is your best friend kind of thing, or was 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:33.040 it you know, persistence, like did you just hey, I 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:34.960 know you might be spooked about me now, but I'm 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.480 going to try again later, or I'm gonna show you something. 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.720 You know, For me, I always have found that if 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:45.080 I want somebody to be vulnerable on the mic about a. 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:49.320 Very intense or sensitive story. 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.520 Then I have to be sort of willing to offer 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.440 the same and that just seems like a universally fair 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.880 exchange for you. What was that process like in terms 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:02.440 of gaining that trust and what does that mean for 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:03.440 you in this project? 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:05.680 I mean, I think that's a perfect thing. 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.480 It's it's if you're asking someone to be honest with you, 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:11.160 you need to be honest with them first. So I 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.080 think starting in that place is always the best way. 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.920 And kind of felt like this was like the longest 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.560 like time I've ever dated all these people. It was 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.760 like dating like I just I just wore them down 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.320 over time. Every time they forgot about me, I popped 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.080 back up and said, like, oh, I've done some more. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.280 Can I show you this? Can I get your reaction? 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.160 And being a consistent person in their life across you know, 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.280 at least for ed across like eight and a half years. 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:40.680 But at the same time, you know, I've also been 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.880 in his family's life that long too. Yeah, you know, 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:47.240 I've been texting his mom since then, And so I 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.360 think that, yeah, you're you're courting these people to some degree, 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.480 but in an incredibly trans as transparent as you can be. 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.200 That I think was the goal, and it seemed to have. 0:16:59.160 --> 0:16:59.880 Worked quite well. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.480 What do you feel like has been the most rewarding 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.760 part of this? Now that you've completed this and it's 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:10.600 well received and it's a beautiful, amazing, very gripping podcasts 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.560 all around the board, what do you feel like has 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:14.919 been the most rewarding part of this? 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.320 Thank you? That's really that means a lot coming from you. 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.280 Specific I mean, it's it's awesome. 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:26.199 It's definitely different, you know what. I honestly haven't had 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:27.880 a chance to let it think in. So now you're 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:29.280 asking me how do I feel about it? 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.640 And like, well, we're like okay, Like or maybe it's 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.280 a rewarding moment throughout the process. Maybe it's not an 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.600 entire reflection of you know, I'm sure party still feels 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:38.479 like you're working on this. 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.040 So no, absolutely, I mean, you know how it is, 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.240 you never stop, like, there's always new leads, there's always 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.920 new people popping up the more that they hear your work. Yeah, 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:49.879 I guess it's the fact that it's a it's a grind, 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.760 it never ends. But I think the most rewarding moment 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.480 for me, again you can't take away the accolade that 0:17:56.520 --> 0:18:01.840 you mentioned earlier. Number one true crime cast in comedy. Yeah, 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.560 I mean, I think that that really says it all, 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.199 like we crossed over genres and hopefully we're you know, 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.960 intriguing and entertaining two sets of audiences now. And that 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.600 was really that was really rewarding to hear. 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:16.320 To me, it was cool because not in every true 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:21.160 crime podcast, especially do you get the opportunity to sort 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:25.719 of gauge an audience's reaction live. And so when he 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.600 was able to do the set at Crime Con to 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.680 a thousand plus people, that was really cool to see 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.639 people obviously laugh at the funny parts, but also be 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:42.440 super immersed in every facet of this story and really 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:46.720 kind of feel for all the people involved and kind 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.720 of had this real time emotional connection which you don't 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:55.000 always see as a podcaster. And so, I mean, what 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.200 was it like kind of I mean, I was obviously 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.199 pacing around super giddy back there, but I'm sure you 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.199 were like, Okay, all this has built to this moment 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.880 and you're seeing people really engage with it. 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:10.520 It's crazy to get the live feedback like Ed gets 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.920 as a stand up because like you and I are. 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:14.840 I think we think about things a long time, we 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:18.000 pursue things a long time, and then people join in 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:20.439 the comments and tell us how we messed up, like 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:24.600 I think that to be able to hear the or 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:26.560 the oh my God, and then most of all the 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:31.480 questions like god. This when Ed performs, it elicits a 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.159 response from an audience I've personally never seen. I've been 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:36.199 to lots of stage shows before, and lots of comedy 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:41.560 and people in Atlanta You'll remember someone ran up on 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.320 stage in the middle of the set and hugged him 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.280 when he was literally mid sentenced. It elicits like and 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.960 other people. It also digs up so much trauma too, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.720 from like all the other questions and answers that come up. 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.240 So it's very rewarding to hear, but also like it's 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.399 so interesting because I man, are we all going through it? 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.159 That's really what I've learned from that feedback is that 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.600 people they can relate to this. There's so many ways 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.840 to relate to this story, and everyone wants to tell 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:14.200 Ed now or me how they connect to it, whether 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.639 it be through an illness, whether it be through you know, 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:21.280 domestic violence, whether it be the and it's crazy. Honestly, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.920 it's really crazy to see that as feedback so quickly. 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.320 Yeah, which I think is probably the coolest silver lining 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.880 of the genre acrossover here, which makes it the most 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.879 special is that it can resonate kind of on a 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.160 different level with any sort of struggle that you've experienced 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.359 and kind of find this common ground just kind of 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.840 seeing somebody else process this and go through that. 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.440 There's so many different layers to it that you know. 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.239 That's struggle, hardship, that's relatable across the board, right, and 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:58.399 so to kind of feel like seen in a way 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.919 as an audience is you know what I find so 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:07.320 unique about it, And that is one of the coolest 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.760 parts about making a podcast like this is that you 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.480 were able to connect with people in a different way. 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:14.720 It's not just obviously it's a cool show. 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.680 It's it's fun, it's crazy, it's dark, but it's also 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.760 something that's uniquely human and that resonates. 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:23.560 And I love that about it, you know what I mean. 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.399 I couldn't agree more. And you know, I think Ed 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:31.400 took a real risk. I mean, he put it all 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:34.360 on the line. He was the most human. He involved 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.320 his family, his mom, his dad. He laid it all 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:41.640