1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Hey, Wisecrack, it's your host and producer Jody. What you're 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: about to hear is a conversation between myself and the 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: godfather of true crime POD's Pain, Lindsay Pain has been 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,639 Speaker 1: a big champion of Wisecrack from the jump, so we're 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: discussing behind the scenes of the investigation, creator, producer, questions 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: and how ed and I recently took his show on 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: the road and performed at Crime Con in Denver. As always, 8 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: thank you for listening and enjoy this bonus episode. 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: Jody, It's good to see you again. We had a 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: blast and Crime Con and seeing the live show again 11 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 2: at stand up is always, I mean every time, I 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: feel like it's funnier and more intense. And also, congratulations 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 2: on becoming our first Tenderfoot number one comedy podcast, which 14 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: is wild to say because we're all true crime, but 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: this is a story that falls in multiple different genres 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: and I love it for that. But yeah, thanks for 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 2: letting me be here to talk to you about the show. 18 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 3: No, thank you. 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: I know I just saw you in Denver and I'm 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: only partially recovered. I don't know about you, but it 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: was really exhilarating. You know, it was a crime conference 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: and people came to laugh, and I think they did 23 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: and they also got immersed in the story, So I 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 1: think it was a It was a pretty great show. 25 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: And I do think that you are more engaged and 26 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: nervous than either Ed or I saw you pacing backstage 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: and listening. 28 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: You're so dialed in. 29 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 2: It's funny because I almost I get like excited where 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 2: I'm like, it's it's like the like the little kid 31 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: inside me is like I picture myself on stage or something, 32 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: and I'm sort of, you know, living vicariously in the 33 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: moment through through Ed in like a weird excitement. 34 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 4: But I mean it's fun. He's such a pro. 35 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: You know, I aspire to do a stand up set 36 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: because that's so incredibly difficult, like I can't even imagine. 37 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 4: But funny you picked up on that. 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: I think I could tell you that you're I can 39 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: tell you're a comedy fan as well, because you were 40 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: like with the timing as much. 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: Uh. 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: I know, I know I'm supposed to answer some questions 43 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: for you, But what was your reaction the first time 44 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: that you heard the set? Because you heard it, I 45 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: guess probably four years ago for the first time. 46 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: Or five I mean, it's one of those things where 47 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: obviously I didn't know what to expect. He opens it 48 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 2: up very just kind of nonchalant, and you're like, who 49 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: is this guy? And he kind of already has this 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: sort of disarming, funny demeanor, which I really enjoyed and 51 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 2: kind of makes you sit back and feel comfortable laughing. 52 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: I just remember the way that he would pivot from 53 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: just this off the wall hilarious sort of joke into 54 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 2: the sort of serious elements of the story, and how 55 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: smooth that was and how it wasn't necessarily jarring. Was 56 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 2: it was kind of like all of the the comedy 57 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: part of his set and his character sort of prepared 58 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: you for the depth of what was to come, and 59 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: to me, it sort of made it a better human story. 60 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: And I really just was drawn to that part of it, 61 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: and from that moment forward in the set, I was 62 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 2: glued into the storytelling, and every time it got funny, 63 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, thank God, I can I can 64 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: breathe a little comic relief, right, We could all use 65 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: that with the dark content. But I want to ask 66 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: you a question actually, because people who haven't listened to 67 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: this yet, which if you if you know me, and 68 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: you haven't listened to it, I'm mad at you. But 69 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: when I was trying to describe this show to people, 70 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: it's I'm like, how do I do this? 71 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 4: You know, like what do you say this is? 72 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: And so I want to ask you what you're saying 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: it is just to the person has no clue what 74 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: you're talking about. 75 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: It's so tough. 76 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: I've been on this beat for almost nine years now 77 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: and I still struggle with the log line, right right. 78 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: I guess for people who are interested in true crime, 79 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: it's a to me, a near death experience that is 80 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: an eyewitness account of a double homicide wrapped in a 81 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: sixty minute stand up set and the investigation subsequent to 82 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: hearing that set. Yeah, I guess that's like, you know, 83 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: just varied, like you know, ten thousand foot view of 84 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: what it is. 85 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 3: I do think it's so much more, but that's that's 86 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 3: how I pitch it. 87 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: And then I think for people who are comedy fans 88 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: who are not necessarily in the crime genre, I just 89 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: think it's a wild ride. It's a very storytelling heavy, 90 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: kind of reminds me of like Tig Nataro, Mike Burbiglia, 91 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: Hannah Gadsby where they take, you know, really deep things 92 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: and still make them funny. And those two feelings of 93 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: laughing and tragedy are very close to each other, you know, 94 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 1: going up and going down. 95 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: I mean, my good friend Mike, who's a producer here 96 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 2: at Tenderfoot. You know, he's been with me for years 97 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: and you know we've investigated cold cases and you know 98 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: a lot of times you used to get deep into 99 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: the trenches of you know, like a tragedy for a 100 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: lack of a better word, and it can be really heavy. 101 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 4: But we sort of have. 102 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: Developed over the years just internally our own sort of 103 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: gallows humor with things, just like to ourselves about our 104 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 2: own sort of experiences, and it's almost like a way 105 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: of processing and managing something really heavy. And I feel 106 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: like wisecrack embodies that. I think it's cathartic to see 107 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: Ed sort of live out loud the experience and like 108 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: is able to reflect on a stage from a point 109 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: of view that is kind of poking fun at himself 110 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: and making light of a situation for the idea of 111 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: how impactful and traumatic it actually was. And I think 112 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: that's powerful because I think we all do that to 113 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: a degree and it's it's a good thing to do 114 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: if you do it right. 115 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: You know, I think you nailed it. Like it. 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: I kind of wonder if cops, detectives, criminal litigators talk 117 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: and have that gallows humor as well privately, right, because 118 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: it's so it's just depressing to deal with every day. 119 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but what I found 120 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: at least, like speaking to some of the official people 121 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: on the case, particularly those who were in Brett's trial, 122 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: they were very funny, I think, and I think that 123 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: that's how everybody copes, right, And I think the other 124 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: side of the coin is like you don't want to 125 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 1: I think when you try to talk about this story, 126 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: you don't want to to. You know, two people were 127 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: gruesomely murdered and then a third. It's really sad, it's upsetting, 128 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: and you know, having those two feelings of laughing and 129 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: horror to some degree, you know it can be offensive. 130 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: So I think like Ed does Bravo to Ed. I 131 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: think he does a great job interweaving those feelings. But 132 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like, yeah, we all have that 133 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: secret vocabulary who work in some of the dark, dark arts. 134 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 4: Right, absolutely. 135 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 2: I mean, tell me about the first time you ever 136 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: stumbled upon this set in the UK. I mean there 137 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: was a time when I was first played this and 138 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: I first saw it from ED, but by then this 139 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: was a conceptualized thing, right, So tell me the first 140 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: time you stumbled upon this and you're like, what is this? 141 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: I want to know more, Like, tell me about your experience. 142 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: With the I was, I just quit my job, and. 143 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 4: It's always a good start, you know exactly. 144 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: You know, my stock was down, I had left. 145 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: I quit my job, and it was making a lot 146 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: of like I was doing like UFO, conspiracy, bigfoot crime 147 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: shows for Discovery, and part of my job there was evaluating, 148 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: you know, what we should make. And you know, I 149 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: always tended to gravitate towards the funnier stories, like the 150 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: scammy crime stories, and I was always pitching those and 151 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: always told like, hey, that's not really what we do here. 152 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: You know, those emotions really don't live together. So when 153 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: I heard ED for the first time, I was like, Oh, 154 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: this kid, for lack of a better word, this kid 155 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: cracked it. Like those two feelings do live together, and 156 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: you can tell that story together. 157 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,359 Speaker 3: So I was. I guess my feeling was I was vindicated. 158 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: You know everything that you kind of always felt instinctually, 159 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: as at least as a creative person and a producer. 160 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: You're like, oh, it can exist, and he figured out 161 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: a way to tell it, you know, I was it 162 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: was felt amazing. And then the second question was, what 163 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: are the odds This guy goes back to his hometown 164 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: one night to perform a charity gig. The kid who 165 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: bullied him his whole life happens to be back in 166 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: their two childhood homes that are next door to each 167 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: other or around the corner from each other, and then 168 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: he shows up at his doorstep, like what are the odds? 169 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: So then it was suspicion. After that, I was like 170 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: I need you know what I mean, like, I need 171 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: to find out. 172 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 4: It's a very wild tale. 173 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 3: Let's let's fact check this, you know, yeah exactly. 174 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: I thought that was probably to you, it probably felt 175 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: like the dots connected, and you're like, this is what 176 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: I was trying to this is what I'm talking about, 177 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: Like this is the kind of thing. 178 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 4: Right then you're like, okay, too good to be true. 179 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 2: I mean, so did you approach him afterwards or like, 180 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: how did that work when you first came to him? 181 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 4: Literally, Yeah, I think. 182 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: The hardest part was first of all, getting him to 183 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: respond to me as. 184 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 4: A universal as well. 185 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: Right, you know, it's hard to first of all approach 186 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: people who are subjects who've had traumatic things happen to them, 187 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: and then also someone who you know, adds a comedian 188 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: and works in entertain So I think, you know the 189 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: way that we kind of portray it, I think it's 190 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: at episode two where I'm chasing him around that is 191 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: two hundred percent accurate. I think we might have actually 192 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: cut even more times that he ghosted me and didn't 193 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: show up at a bar or coffee shop to talk. 194 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: So I think that was that was a big challenge. 195 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 1: But then the second piece was telling him that he 196 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: just told a true crime story. He just thought he 197 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: told a funny set that was deeply personal. 198 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: That's also like a true crime documentary you just outlined 199 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: right there exactly. 200 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: And then once that information was given and I think 201 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: we established a little bit of trust, that was when 202 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, now I got to get to 203 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: work fact checking. And I will say the first thing 204 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: that really struck me was that he you know, in 205 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: the set, you don't he doesn't really talk too much 206 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: about the crime. It's really about his perspective inside the 207 00:10:52,280 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: four walls of his house next to the crimes. 208 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 2: So Wisecrack is essentially a true crime story weaved within 209 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: the framework literally of a stand up comedy set. And 210 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: those two things, just by nature don't necessarily always go together, 211 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: which is why this is a unique project. So for 212 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: you as a producer and as you dug deeper into 213 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: the actual crime elements of this story and you know 214 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: the tragedy that the tragedy that happened, how did you 215 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: sort of create a balance of treating both stories with 216 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 2: care and you know, getting Ed's story across and just 217 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: his magnetic his magnetic style and way of talking about 218 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: this stuff with the sort of journalistic approach that you're 219 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: probably tiptoeing to make sure you're you're handling with care. 220 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 4: What was that balance and how did you strike that exactly? 221 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: I think the the only way to do something like 222 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: this is to have some really good partners, you know that, 223 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: Like you've got a great team on up and vanished. 224 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: You know, my team was Charles Forbes. He was in 225 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: charge of narrative for the storytelling, and I was playing 226 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: journalist honestly, like and we kept each other in check 227 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: as we went, so I was kind of the record 228 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: keeper and fact checker and Charles was the one that 229 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: was beating out the story structure. And we did this 230 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: together because you're right, like you want to do service 231 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: to the wonderful story that Ed tells and how he 232 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: tells it, but then in the podcast, like you know, 233 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 1: it's our job to match that. So I think that 234 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: was the if we succeeded at all, it was because 235 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: we did it together, me and Chuck, and I think 236 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: that it's really been a threesome between me, Charles and 237 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: Ed this entire time. So if we if we struck 238 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: the balance, that's you know, you gotta gotta have good friends. 239 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: That's very true, right, Yeah, tell me the true, don't 240 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: sugarcoat it. I mean, I feel like the stand up 241 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: set is already great, But if you're going to make 242 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: a podcast about this and you're going to dive deeper 243 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: into the crime that happened, and you're fact checking and 244 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: you're interviewing people, likely for the first time, it becomes 245 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: an entirely different beast. And so in a lot of ways, 246 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: you have to make sure you cross all your t's 247 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: and dot your eyes. Very well in that lane in 248 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 2: order to do service to both parts of this right 249 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 2: it would it could fall apart if this falls short 250 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: over here. So in a lot of ways, I would 251 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: imagine you almost had to go even harder in that 252 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: direction in terms of the journalistic part of this whole project. 253 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: Entirely, and also mean being an American, a nosy American, 254 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: and a small British down to go down great either. 255 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: So I think there was you know, I guess the 256 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: end of the day, it took a really long time 257 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: to make this, but I think it was mostly because 258 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: it took a long time for trust, to build trust 259 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,119 Speaker 1: with all the subjects, to build trust with each other editorially, 260 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: to build trust like all that stuff. And I will 261 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: say this too, we failed so many times. I don't 262 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed to tell you how many cuts Steven and 263 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: Alex did on the tender foot side of things, because. 264 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 3: Again, like it, it is pretty new. 265 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: There's no real roadmap for something like this, and so 266 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: but I think that everyone's willingness to just do it 267 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: over again and make changes like that was, if anything, 268 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: was the real reason for success. And then just again 269 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: keeping each other honest and making sure that because a 270 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: lot of time passes. It's very easy to forget. I 271 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: will be very frank with you. I'm working on a 272 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: bunch of other crime stories, as I know you are, 273 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: and so I think that was another piece of it, 274 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: was making sure that all the information and record keeping 275 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: was super organized. I have a murder binder, and it's 276 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: then I brought it to color I bring it everywhere, bring. 277 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: It everywhere, the bus to the coffee shoper on it. 278 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 4: It's it's pink, pink murderbinder. 279 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: Okay, I mean it kind of goes with the concept 280 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: of this show, you know, like, you know, give yourself 281 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: a little breathing room with this heavy content. Here Exactly 282 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: when he came to gaining trust, you know, I guess 283 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: from the journalism side of things and interviewing people and 284 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: even gaining the trust of ed, how did you go 285 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: about doing that? Was it more of a you know, 286 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: time is your best friend kind of thing, or was 287 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: it you know, persistence, like did you just hey, I 288 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 2: know you might be spooked about me now, but I'm 289 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: going to try again later, or I'm gonna show you something. 290 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: You know, For me, I always have found that if 291 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: I want somebody to be vulnerable on the mic about a. 292 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 4: Very intense or sensitive story. 293 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: Then I have to be sort of willing to offer 294 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: the same and that just seems like a universally fair 295 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: exchange for you. What was that process like in terms 296 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: of gaining that trust and what does that mean for 297 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: you in this project? 298 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's a perfect thing. 299 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: It's it's if you're asking someone to be honest with you, 300 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: you need to be honest with them first. So I 301 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: think starting in that place is always the best way. 302 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: And kind of felt like this was like the longest 303 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: like time I've ever dated all these people. It was 304 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: like dating like I just I just wore them down 305 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: over time. Every time they forgot about me, I popped 306 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: back up and said, like, oh, I've done some more. 307 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: Can I show you this? Can I get your reaction? 308 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: And being a consistent person in their life across you know, 309 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: at least for ed across like eight and a half years. 310 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, I've also been 311 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: in his family's life that long too. Yeah, you know, 312 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: I've been texting his mom since then, And so I 313 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: think that, yeah, you're you're courting these people to some degree, 314 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: but in an incredibly trans as transparent as you can be. 315 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: That I think was the goal, and it seemed to have. 316 00:16:59,160 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 3: Worked quite well. 317 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: What do you feel like has been the most rewarding 318 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: part of this? Now that you've completed this and it's 319 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: well received and it's a beautiful, amazing, very gripping podcasts 320 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: all around the board, what do you feel like has 321 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: been the most rewarding part of this? 322 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: Thank you? That's really that means a lot coming from you. 323 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 4: Specific I mean, it's it's awesome. 324 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: It's definitely different, you know what. I honestly haven't had 325 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: a chance to let it think in. So now you're 326 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: asking me how do I feel about it? 327 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 2: And like, well, we're like okay, Like or maybe it's 328 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: a rewarding moment throughout the process. Maybe it's not an 329 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: entire reflection of you know, I'm sure party still feels 330 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:38,479 Speaker 2: like you're working on this. 331 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: So no, absolutely, I mean, you know how it is, 332 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: you never stop, like, there's always new leads, there's always 333 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: new people popping up the more that they hear your work. Yeah, 334 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: I guess it's the fact that it's a it's a grind, 335 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: it never ends. But I think the most rewarding moment 336 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: for me, again you can't take away the accolade that 337 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier. Number one true crime cast in comedy. Yeah, 338 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that really says it all, 339 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 1: like we crossed over genres and hopefully we're you know, 340 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: intriguing and entertaining two sets of audiences now. And that 341 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: was really that was really rewarding to hear. 342 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: To me, it was cool because not in every true 343 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 2: crime podcast, especially do you get the opportunity to sort 344 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 2: of gauge an audience's reaction live. And so when he 345 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: was able to do the set at Crime Con to 346 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: a thousand plus people, that was really cool to see 347 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 2: people obviously laugh at the funny parts, but also be 348 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: super immersed in every facet of this story and really 349 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: kind of feel for all the people involved and kind 350 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: of had this real time emotional connection which you don't 351 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 2: always see as a podcaster. And so, I mean, what 352 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 2: was it like kind of I mean, I was obviously 353 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 2: pacing around super giddy back there, but I'm sure you 354 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 2: were like, Okay, all this has built to this moment 355 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 2: and you're seeing people really engage with it. 356 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: It's crazy to get the live feedback like Ed gets 357 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: as a stand up because like you and I are. 358 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: I think we think about things a long time, we 359 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: pursue things a long time, and then people join in 360 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: the comments and tell us how we messed up, like 361 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: I think that to be able to hear the or 362 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: the oh my God, and then most of all the 363 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: questions like god. This when Ed performs, it elicits a 364 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: response from an audience I've personally never seen. I've been 365 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: to lots of stage shows before, and lots of comedy 366 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: and people in Atlanta You'll remember someone ran up on 367 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: stage in the middle of the set and hugged him 368 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: when he was literally mid sentenced. It elicits like and 369 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: other people. It also digs up so much trauma too, 370 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: from like all the other questions and answers that come up. 371 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: So it's very rewarding to hear, but also like it's 372 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: so interesting because I man, are we all going through it? 373 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: That's really what I've learned from that feedback is that 374 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: people they can relate to this. There's so many ways 375 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: to relate to this story, and everyone wants to tell 376 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: Ed now or me how they connect to it, whether 377 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: it be through an illness, whether it be through you know, 378 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: domestic violence, whether it be the and it's crazy. Honestly, 379 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: it's really crazy to see that as feedback so quickly. 380 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, which I think is probably the coolest silver lining 381 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 2: of the genre acrossover here, which makes it the most 382 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: special is that it can resonate kind of on a 383 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 2: different level with any sort of struggle that you've experienced 384 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: and kind of find this common ground just kind of 385 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: seeing somebody else process this and go through that. 386 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 4: There's so many different layers to it that you know. 387 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,239 Speaker 2: That's struggle, hardship, that's relatable across the board, right, and 388 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: so to kind of feel like seen in a way 389 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 2: as an audience is you know what I find so 390 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: unique about it, And that is one of the coolest 391 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: parts about making a podcast like this is that you 392 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: were able to connect with people in a different way. 393 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 4: It's not just obviously it's a cool show. 394 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 2: It's it's fun, it's crazy, it's dark, but it's also 395 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 2: something that's uniquely human and that resonates. 396 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 4: And I love that about it, you know what I mean. 397 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. And you know, I think Ed 398 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: took a real risk. I mean, he put it all 399 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: on the line. He was the most human. He involved 400 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: his family, his mom, his dad. He laid it all 401 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: bare about their past transgressions and failings for each other, 402 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: his brothers like, and his neighbors and his tiny town 403 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: like I mean, I really right. It is the most 404 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: human of all human stories. And bullying being I think 405 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: a big theme too. 406 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. 407 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: God, I was bullied. I think we've all been bullied 408 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: to some degree. Hey, we're from the same what's up 409 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: with people from mayor yet being bullied? 410 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 2: Remember the bullies of the bus stop? You know, totally 411 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: that was They love to pick on me too, you know. 412 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very relatable for sure, very very human to 413 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: use your words. 414 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: I think, very very merry out of Georgia. 415 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 4: No shade there. So this is a Wisecrack. 416 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 2: Is a six episode podcast, and I'm just going to 417 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 2: put this out there now. 418 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 4: Uh. 419 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 2: I assume that if you're listening to this right now, 420 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 2: you've listened to the show, But if you haven't made 421 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 2: it very deep into the podcast yet, I would stop 422 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: now and finish it so I don't spoil anything for you, 423 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 2: because I want to kind of jump towards the end 424 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 2: of the series and pick your brain about a couple things. 425 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 2: So we were end the series with this cliffhanger. I'll 426 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: call it that the idea that you know, what if 427 00:22:55,119 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: Ed is lying right without too many spoilers or you know, 428 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: however you want to say it, like, let's talk about that, 429 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,640 Speaker 2: because you mentioned that early on, like wanting to validate 430 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: some of this stuff, and that would always be a 431 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: fear right. And obviously an audience is going to react 432 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: like they're going to say, everyone's lying all the time 433 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 2: about everything does really matter? 434 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 4: But what are your thoughts? 435 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I honestly think that the one thing that we 436 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: were successful with is staying true to the journey Jody. 437 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: I'm talking about her in the third person, her emotional 438 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: journey as an investigator. Yeah, me, me, But that was 439 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: all accurate. I was very skeptical the whole time. Yeah, 440 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: and you'll hear eventually that I do have a pretty 441 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: deep and confrontation with Ed about some of my skepticism 442 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,919 Speaker 1: and how I guess like we almost lost that chance 443 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: to have a transformation and for him to see this 444 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,239 Speaker 1: a little bit differently. Again, no spoilers, but but you 445 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: know there's a moment that we scrap like and you'll 446 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: hear it, and that was all authentic, and that was 447 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: years of build up of me checking all the boxes 448 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: in one column and then saying, but there's this question here, 449 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: so and so said this, and so I certainly think 450 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: that that, again, all of that was very accurate to 451 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: the journey of trying to uncover and trust. 452 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: It was like again, it was like it was like dating. 453 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 1: I can't come up with a better analogy. It was 454 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: just about there's there's a certain level of trust that 455 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: was that is required in the end to like really 456 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: see through this journey. And I hope that that's ie 457 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: that's something that people enjoy too, because you know, at 458 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: the end of the day, it's not a who done it? 459 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: We know who done it? 460 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: You know, after episode two, you know there's no who 461 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:40,679 Speaker 1: and then we learned about the what. 462 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 3: It's really a wide journey. 463 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you're into, like I guess, the psychology 464 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: and push and pull of investigator against subject who happens 465 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: to also be a very entertaining professional comedian, like this 466 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: is definitely something that I think will be very interesting 467 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: in the final episodes. 468 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I could imagine that after several years of 469 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 2: playing investigative journalists, being an investigative journalist and being. 470 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 4: On the ground and doing all the real work and. 471 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 2: Research and making the connections, interviewing people. You have put 472 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 2: a lot of time, energy, emotion, thought into this and 473 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: if there's a moment that it culminates into this feeling 474 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 2: that you've been tricked or conned, you know, that would 475 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: probably feel pretty bad. And at the same time, if 476 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 2: you're challenging ed and he's like, I'm telling the truth, 477 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: that probably equally feels not good. So what was that 478 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 2: sort of like culminating moment, God or one of them? 479 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, no, No, I mean I'm thinking very 480 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: specifically of a confrontation that you'll hear, and I think 481 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: it's presently and I think it's. 482 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 3: An episode five right now. 483 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: And yeah, I again, I think there was a lot 484 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: of mistrust that had built up that needed to be addressed. 485 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: But ultimately, you know, I think we just assumed so 486 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: much bad stuff about each other, him, me, me of him, us, 487 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: of strangers on the internet, et cetera. And in the 488 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: end it, you know, thankfully, it was a journey that 489 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: was worth taking for me and and also for him. 490 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: But there was at one point I was like, oh 491 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: my god, I've spent all this time. 492 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 3: What if it's kind of massive please no, please know. 493 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: And then I was like, I guess that's still a story, 494 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: but but maybe not worth telling. And you know, so, yeah, 495 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: is that part where you're you know, as a host 496 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: and investigator, your buttet drops out and you're like, oh 497 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: my god, what have I done? 498 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: And you will hear that there's a big piece of that. 499 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 4: And yeah, and that's that's very real. 500 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it is hard to trust people you know 501 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 2: that you don't know or even know sometimes and you know, 502 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: part of that trust on your end even is kind 503 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: of taking a little bit of a leap of faith 504 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: because you know you're not going to definitively know right away, 505 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 2: maybe for a long time until you get to a 506 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: certain point, and. 507 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 4: That that is a risk that we all have to take. 508 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: In getting closer to anybody or anything right exactly. So, yeah, 509 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 2: we don't want to sit here and never learn anything new, 510 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: but we also don't want to walk around being you know, 511 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 2: clueless and taken advantage of in a place where that 512 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 2: happens in the world, you. 513 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: Know, totally, it's a fine line from being thinking critically 514 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: and you know, you just don't want to feel naive. 515 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 3: You don't want to feel like a fool. 516 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: And sometimes I think that we take that critical thinking skill, 517 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: especially someone who thinks I think in like a doomsday 518 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: scenario from it right, and. 519 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 3: Really, yeah, it could spiral. It really can. 520 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: And it's also like you know, checking yourself in the 521 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: work and saying, Okay, here's what we know, here's what 522 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: we don't know, here's what I need to ask, here's 523 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: where I need to go. I need to now not 524 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: talk to this person and exclusively understand this perspective. So 525 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: hopefully we you know, we did that. 526 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 4: Decently, I think. So do you believe ed now? 527 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: I'd lose no sleep over it. 528 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: No, seriously, I you know, you look back at it 529 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: and like you hear some of the conversations we have 530 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: and we're like, oh, that was really harsh, Tove like 531 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: that wasn't nice. But but no, there's no there's no 532 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: question in my mind, and I you know, it's really 533 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: now that I look back on it. I think there's 534 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: some cultural differences too. I was talking to some of 535 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: my British friends and say, talking about the story, and 536 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: they were like, oh, yeah, people from Essex, they don't 537 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: they don't talk about their feelings and they certainly don't 538 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: talk about anything that's happening in the town or their lives. 539 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: It's very you know, the currency is saying there and just. 540 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 3: Living your life privately. 541 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: So to force an entire town of people to do 542 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: the thing that is so deeply unnatural on things that 543 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: they just haven't done for centuries, I get it. 544 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 3: That was a big piece of that too. 545 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: So I do look back on that and think, you know, 546 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,479 Speaker 1: there's that stiff upper lip that I was fighting against 547 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: as well. But that doesn't necessarily mean people are liars. 548 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: There are a lot of victims in this story, the murders, 549 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 2: for one, and I feel like as a whole, just 550 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 2: the impact as you dissect it, it is very expansive, 551 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: just sort of all the different intricate ways this impacted 552 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 2: all different kinds of people in this town, family, even 553 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: down to listeners across the ocean and feeling it in 554 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: a brand new way. What have you found in terms 555 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 2: of just the impact this entire event and what's transpired 556 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 2: afterwards has had on the community ed maybe even yourself. 557 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm still waiting to hear back from 558 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: the community, but I can speak. I certainly can speak 559 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: for myself and say this whole experience and learning about 560 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: this particular case. I we don't talk about any official 561 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: medical diagnosis because the killer that we talk about in 562 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: the story never officially had one. But mental health is 563 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: the one thing that I keep that I've learned and 564 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: I've taken with me. 565 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 3: I think that so. 566 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: It's so complicated, especially in a socialized medical system like 567 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: the UK. All these agencies are working together, but also 568 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: have their own goals, right they need to close cases, 569 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: they have boxes to check, and sometimes I can do 570 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: a uh huh, and sometimes I can do a big 571 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: disservice to people too. Sometimes it's a tremendously helpful, But 572 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if in this case that was the situation. 573 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: To be really frank with you, and it wasn't that 574 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: anyone was not doing their job. But you've got to 575 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: figure out a way for all the agencies to talk 576 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: to each other, if that makes any sense. And you know, 577 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: I really look at Brett's father, Pete, who we will 578 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: meet in future episodes, as the real winner here. You 579 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: expect one thing to come out of that conversation, and 580 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: it's completely the opposite. And I think that one of 581 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: the things that he was very successful with was managing 582 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: his learning how to manage his feelings and processing things 583 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: because he experienced it the worst. So I think that 584 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: he really comes out So I find him very inspirational 585 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: in general. That's the one thing I take with me. 586 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 4: So what do you take from that? 587 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 2: Like you're seeing somebody kind of overcome something and handle 588 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 2: something extremely difficult, and wow, that's admirable, I would assume 589 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: right like very much. 590 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: He did he did the work like that's that's the answer. 591 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: He spent a lot of time having uncomfortable conversations with 592 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: professionals until he was able to come out on the 593 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: other side, and that took years, and but that was 594 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: something And again, I don't think that's something that naturally, 595 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: you know, you know, a sixty year old person in 596 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: general would be was taught to do or be willing 597 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: to do. And I think that's really impressive on his part. 598 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier how special it was people coming up 599 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: to you all after the show, and I'm sure you 600 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: get emails and stuff like that, just different listeners connecting 601 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 2: in various ways to this story. I guess who do 602 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: you hope this podcast reaches? What do you what do 603 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 2: you hope people gain through this? As a listener. 604 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,959 Speaker 4: Ideally, M that's such a good question. 605 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: I think that I do think that this is not 606 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: a true crime one on one story, if that makes 607 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: any sense, because it's much more of a Towards the 608 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: end we really get into I think we're about to 609 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: dovetail into these episodes where it becomes such a character 610 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: study of personality and how one reacts to things, if 611 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: that makes any sense, traumatic things. So I definitely think 612 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: that if you're somebody who is maybe not even interested 613 00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: in true crime or comedy, if you're interested in I think, 614 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: just generally how humans respond to crazy things. Yeah, we're 615 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: about to We're about to take you there, for sure. 616 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: So I do I think that that that's what makes 617 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: it certainly universally rewarding as an endpoint for sure in 618 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: the story. 619 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 3: And I don't know. 620 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: I just I hope that we do justice to the victims. Obviously, 621 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: that's the number one thing to me. I think that 622 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: this story got really swept under the rug in the 623 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: UK for whatever reason. Who knows why things happen the 624 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: way they do, and you know, in the news media, 625 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: But but I really think that it's important to honor 626 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: them specifically. It really turned into the Brett Show at 627 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: some point because he was such a mysterious type of murderer. Sure, yeah, 628 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: and the crime itself was very confusing, but you know 629 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: Gillian Phillips, David Oaks, and then ultimately you know other 630 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: people too that are involved in this. But like, I 631 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: really that's that's that's the one thing. Honestly, their memory 632 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: acknowledging it happened, I think is the most important thing. 633 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 1: And then I think, you know, also, you're gonna feel 634 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: a lot of feelings and I hope and I hope 635 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: they make you think. 636 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I love that. Well, Jody, this has been 637 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: amazing you and the rest of the team. Charles ed himself, 638 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: the rest of the Tenderfoot team, super. 639 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 4: Proud of all you all you guys. It's truly a 640 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 4: one of a kind. 641 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 2: I think you put together a blueprint for a new 642 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 2: kind of true crime show that has really resonated with 643 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 2: listeners and myself and is extremely special and I think 644 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: a positive impact on a lot of people. 645 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 4: So great job that. 646 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much. 647 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: And I mean, like again, I don't think that anybody 648 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: the part of this journey was just like pitching the 649 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: story around and seeing who would want to tell it, 650 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: and the fact that you and Donald said yes, let's 651 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: tryin let's go. Yeah, I mean, like, thank you for 652 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,439 Speaker 1: being on the crazy train. I think that's a big 653 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 1: part part of taking the risk is finding somebody who 654 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: who knows the genre but is also willing to take 655 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: risks and push stories. So again, we wouldn't We would 656 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: not be here if it weren't for you guys, And 657 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: I know that Ed, Charles and myself are so appreciative. 658 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: So thank you guys so much, and I hope everyone 659 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: enjoys it. 660 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much. This has been awesome. 661 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 2: Uh, if you haven't listened to the podcast yet, I 662 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 2: don't know why you're here, so definitely gonna listen to 663 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: it now or re listen to it. But Jody, this 664 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: has been amazing. Charles, excellent job, Ed, you're the man. Yeah, 665 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: Wisecrack is an amazing body of work. And I might 666 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 2: just go binge it again myself because every time I 667 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 2: find a new Easter Egg in there, So please do give. 668 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 3: Me another download. 669 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 4: I will