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Speaker 1: Also media. Uh huh, I do it's now that we

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Speaker 1: used to script to the zoom Lady going recording in progress.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know. Whatever happened to the zoom Lady

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Speaker 2: another job taken by automation. I think it was an

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Speaker 2: automated job to begin with. I think that was a

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Speaker 2: who complains when the when the robots get taken their

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Speaker 2: jobs taken by other robots, you know, we need solidarity

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Speaker 2: with some of the robots against the other robots.

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Speaker 1: I think I think Wally from that from that movie, Wally.

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Speaker 3: Is the one.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I hate that son of a bitch.

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Speaker 3: Why I love Wally.

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Speaker 2: I'll fight I'll fight.

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Speaker 3: Wally Lealy alone.

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Speaker 2: I don't like him at all.

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Speaker 3: Why don't you like Wally?

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Speaker 2: It's not his business coming around picking ship up? You know,

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Speaker 2: you're so literally what.

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Speaker 3: He's programmed for. You're such a hater I am.

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Speaker 2: I'm fundamentally a hater because that's my job. I'm Robert

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Speaker 2: Evans and this is Behind the Bastards, a podcast for haters,

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Speaker 2: by haters, often about haters.

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Speaker 3: Forgive Me, produced by a.

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Speaker 2: Lover, Produced by a lover and our guest today T

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Speaker 2: T Lee, Would you like to talk about a guy

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Speaker 2: we hate again some more.

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Speaker 3: You know, do I have a choice?

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Speaker 4: No? No, no, you know what this is exactly I

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Speaker 4: this is what I love to.

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Speaker 2: Do, is to be forced to hear about a bad man. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was forced to read about him. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 2: I forced myself. This is all fundamentally on me. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I made my choices. I could have written about anyone.

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Speaker 3: I will say, if I had to hear it from anyone,

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Speaker 3: I would choose you, Robert and so.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you. So I will if I had to

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Speaker 2: choose to tell anyone, I would tell you, because you would.

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Speaker 2: You and I share the deepest bond that two people

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Speaker 2: can at work, which is you both accidentally took a

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Speaker 2: huge dose of mushrooms together while filming a video for

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Speaker 2: the Internet.

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Speaker 4: That is still very much yeah, never forgotten. Every once

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Speaker 4: in a while someone will bring that up, a stranger like, did.

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Speaker 3: You get high on mushrooms once?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Online. I'm like, yeah, that was me.

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Speaker 4: And I always say, by the way, it was cleared

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Speaker 4: by legal it's completely legal.

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Speaker 2: Actually, these were legal mushrooms. They're unregulated, you know they

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Speaker 2: were they were unregulated. A lot was unregulated in those days. Uh,

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Speaker 2: the Internet before like twenty sixteen. You know, yeah, before

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Speaker 2: everything got worse. Yeah, speaking about the stuff that's much

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Speaker 2: worse than that. Let's get back to this horrible guy

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Speaker 2: in Jamaica Thomas Thistle would. So in Part one, I

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Speaker 2: discussed the fact that Thomas thistle Would considered himself a

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Speaker 2: bit of a naturalist, and that his documentations of all

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Speaker 2: of the different crimes he committed were, in his own eyes,

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Speaker 2: something he saw as a contribution to the scientific record.

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Speaker 2: And he also considered like what he was specifically the

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Speaker 2: sexual violence he employed as like a part of his

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Speaker 2: work as a farmer. You know, slaves aren't entirely treated

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Speaker 2: the same as livestock in his mind, but they're treated

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Speaker 2: more like livestock than people.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: The only reason in which they're kind of different from

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Speaker 2: life is that is that they're more valuable, right, like

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Speaker 2: a slave is does an enslave person represents a huge

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Speaker 2: store of value. Right, They're worth a lot more than

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Speaker 2: like most livestock are. Right, So these are not. That's

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Speaker 2: part of why even when you hear about something like, oh,

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Speaker 2: he caught this this woman with a knife, it's not

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Speaker 2: that common for them to kill because that's a lot

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Speaker 2: of money on the line, right, that represents somebody's money.

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Speaker 2: It's not out of humanitarianism or anything like that. They

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Speaker 2: just it's it's that's pretty dark. Yeah, yeah, that's all

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Speaker 2: this is to them. Yeah. One of the things that

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Speaker 2: I find most interesting about the journals of Thomas Thistlewood

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Speaker 2: is the degree to which things that are like these

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Speaker 2: really horrible sex crimes are just like bracketed in between

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Speaker 2: stuff like, oh, one of my lambs gave birth or

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Speaker 2: I killed a snake, right, Like he literally like put

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Speaker 2: it in tween stuff like that. And in her study

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Speaker 2: for Small Ax Journal, Heather Vermulion explains that by doing

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Speaker 2: things like this, he's quote enclosing particular rape records within

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Speaker 2: signifiers of his progress an increase in livestock and a

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Speaker 2: decrease in the threatening of the undomesticated creaturely population, right,

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Speaker 2: And so what he's seeing is like, what I'm doing

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Speaker 2: is a part of this like taming of the natural world.

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Speaker 2: It's the same as getting rid of, you know, a

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Speaker 2: snake that we have no use for because it will

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Speaker 2: just eat our livestock. Or it's the same as one

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Speaker 2: of my livestock giving birth right and Darwin's theory of

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Speaker 2: evolution didn't exist yet, right, that's not published until the

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Speaker 2: late eighteen fifties. But people who would wind up being

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Speaker 2: Darwin's precursors are alive and publishing books of science in

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Speaker 2: this period of time. And these are a lot of

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Speaker 2: the guys that Thomas Thistlewood is a fan of. Right,

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Speaker 2: He's like, this is his We don't have like YouTube yet,

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Speaker 2: but like this is very much the kind of content

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Speaker 2: that he is he is ingesting, right, is these like

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Speaker 2: early and some of them are bullshit? Right, yeah, Like

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Speaker 2: this is his manusphere, right, is like this mix of

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Speaker 2: works of science and works of like literature and satire

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Speaker 2: and like literal like just like lies that are also

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Speaker 2: being passed off as science. Like all of this is

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Speaker 2: like part of his intellectual diet, and one of the

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Speaker 2: books that was most influence.

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Speaker 3: Exactly like the manuscre right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's yeah, and there's one of the one of

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Speaker 2: the things that is weirdly common with like it's a

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Speaker 2: it relates directly to a problem we have today is

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Speaker 2: people taking works of satire seriously and then building their

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Speaker 2: for their like views of the world around them. Like

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Speaker 2: that that happens today with you know, shit like we

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Speaker 2: can talk about South Park and the movie Starship Troopers, right,

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Speaker 2: where a lot of people don't get the joke and

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Speaker 2: wind up or take the joke in a specific way

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Speaker 2: and wind up using it as part of like a

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Speaker 2: worldview that justifies some pretty fucked up things and shit

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Speaker 2: like that is happening back then. And one of the

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Speaker 2: things one of the ways it happens to Thomas thistle

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Speaker 2: w is he he becomes a fan of this like

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Speaker 2: satirical tract published in seventeen fifty two called the Man Plant,

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Speaker 2: or a Scheme for Increasing and Improving the British Breed.

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Speaker 2: And this is this is like a you've heard of

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Speaker 2: like Thomas Swift's a modest proposal, right yeah, where he's

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Speaker 2: like he's talking about it we should, Oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's all these poor people starving in Ireland. What if

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Speaker 2: we ate Irish babies? What if we like allowed them

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Speaker 2: to be sold as food? And it's like it's a

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Speaker 2: sad Like he's joking about how cruelly people talk about

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Speaker 2: the poor, right and particularly poor Irish like that it's

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Speaker 2: that's the joke, is like how awful his society is

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Speaker 2: to this group of people, right, that they're treating their

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Speaker 2: babies like a like chicken to be farmed for food,

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Speaker 2: almost right, like like that's that's the point Swift was making, right,

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Speaker 2: And some people get the joke and some people don't.

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Speaker 2: And Thistlewood comes across a book that's a similar thing

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Speaker 2: to what Thomas Swift is doing, called The Man Plant,

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Speaker 2: and it's written we don't know exactly who wrote it.

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Speaker 2: The author's pseudonym was Vincent Miller. And it's really weird

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Speaker 2: because it comes out in seventeen fifty two, so there's

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Speaker 2: no theory of evolution. Our knowledge of heredity is very

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Speaker 2: limited in the seventeen fifties, right, we're starting to get

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Speaker 2: an understanding of it, but it is not what we'd

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Speaker 2: call developed. And this work, as a joke is an

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Speaker 2: early eugenics text. It's really fascinating. It's like a pre

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Speaker 2: genetics understanding of eugenics, again written as a bit, because

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Speaker 2: the gist of this book is that this guy Vincent Miller,

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Speaker 2: is basically saying, hey, we need like there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of problems like with the there's a problem of inequality

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Speaker 2: between the sexes, right, because pregnancy is so dangerous and

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Speaker 2: painful for women and part of what he's doing here

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Speaker 2: is I think he's kind of making a comment on

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Speaker 2: the upper class in his society, in which it's very

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Speaker 2: common for women who are of high society after they

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Speaker 2: give birth to hand their baby off to like a nurse, right,

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Speaker 2: who's going to like actually like feed and take care

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Speaker 2: of effect we raise the kid. And so part of

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Speaker 2: what part of the satires is he's saying, what if

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Speaker 2: we take moms and dads entirely out of the equation

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Speaker 2: and raise human beings like animals on a farm. Right,

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Speaker 2: And one the way he suggests doing this is like,

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Speaker 2: we have to make pregnancy less dangerous. Let's ges state

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Speaker 2: embryos in an artificial womb, and that way we can

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Speaker 2: keep we can we can remove human beings entirely from

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Speaker 2: the business of like raising their children. Right, He's being like,

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Speaker 2: this is a sad.

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Speaker 4: Point out how the direction we're going is even becoming

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Speaker 4: like less removed or more removed and less human, and

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Speaker 4: as like a point. But then people are like, great idea, yes, yes.

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Speaker 2: And he's you know this, this is where I wanted

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Speaker 2: to go into more detail about this, but we're going

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Speaker 2: to run long anyway. But it's a fascinating work for me,

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Speaker 2: just because of how he's he's very clearly satirizing what

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Speaker 2: he sees is like an inhumanity at the highest levels

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Speaker 2: of his society, like people aren't even raising or nearing

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Speaker 2: their own kids. But part of how he chooses to

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Speaker 2: mock that is by kind of laughing at the idea

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Speaker 2: of like that, like pregnancy is dangerous for women. And

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Speaker 2: it's a little unclear to me if he's actually acknowledging

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Speaker 2: that that's an inequality or if he's making fun of

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Speaker 2: the people who see it as an inequality. Like I'm

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Speaker 2: just not fully versed enough in like the satire of

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Speaker 2: the seventeen fifties in England to tell you what he's

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Speaker 2: trying to do more. But Vincent Miller, part of what

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Speaker 2: he's doing is he's looking at this culture of upper

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Speaker 2: class child neglect and he's proposing a hyperbolic solution. Right,

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Speaker 2: we create an artificial womb to ges state fertilized embryos

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Speaker 2: outside of the human body, and we can raise human

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Speaker 2: beings like animals on a plantation. And part of one

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Speaker 2: of the things that the eugenics thing that he kind

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Speaker 2: of proposes here is he pretends that he's done this,

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Speaker 2: He like writes claims about how I convinced this farm

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Speaker 2: girl like to give me one of her after she

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Speaker 2: had sex with his boy, that she liked to give

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Speaker 2: me a fertilized embryo, and I took it out this way,

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Speaker 2: and I grew it in a heat cow bladder. And

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Speaker 2: the baby's twenty months old now, and it's much healthier

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Speaker 2: than a regular baby. And for this reason, I propose

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Speaker 2: that this method of growing human beings will yield a

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Speaker 2: heartier offspring will get which is proto eugenic. Right, that

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Speaker 2: he's saying we will improve, and again as a joke,

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Speaker 2: but he's still saying we will improve through this method

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Speaker 2: the breeding quality of all of the British people that

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Speaker 2: we start putting into the world.

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Speaker 4: Right, But he's talking about like like it's interesting that

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Speaker 4: he's talking about breeding of white people. And then there's

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Speaker 4: like this parallel world where they're talking about breeding slaves

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Speaker 4: and they're both dehumanizing. But one is like, let's breed

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Speaker 4: more of quote unquote superior white people, and the others like, let's.

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Speaker 3: Bring more of these people we don't consider human.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and so that's like such a weird like

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Speaker 4: I don't know, like a weird cognitive dissonance.

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Speaker 2: I think that's part of the satire too, is him saying, Hey,

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Speaker 2: if we apply it, here's what happens if we apply

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Speaker 2: the logic we're using on slave populations in places like

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Speaker 2: Jamaica to white English people. Isn't that fucked up? Right?

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Speaker 2: Like he's he's I think part of this is is

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Speaker 2: Miller trying to get people in his society to like

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Speaker 2: think about it this way, right. I think that's part

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Speaker 2: of the satire. So obviously this guy does not is

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Speaker 2: not seriously suggesting this, Nor did he literally just state

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Speaker 2: a baby and a cow's uh black, Like that's you

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Speaker 2: can't do that, right, Like that's like he's this is

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Speaker 2: a bit. It's a little unclear to me how we

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Speaker 2: know this influenced Thomas Thistlewood, because he writes, he quotes

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Speaker 2: extensively from this tract in his diary. He writes about

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Speaker 2: it a bunch at the time that he reads it,

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Speaker 2: and there's some some evidence some of the scholars who

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Speaker 2: study his journals have suggested that this played like a

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Speaker 2: role in his intellectual development and how he treated people.

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Speaker 2: And it's kind of I kind of think I don't

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Speaker 2: know if it's that he missed the satire entirely or

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Speaker 2: that he just like a lot of these tech bros

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Speaker 2: who read science fiction and there's like things in there

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Speaker 2: that you're not emulate. The Matrix, right, it's a torment

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Speaker 2: nexus situation where like Vincent Miller is describing the torment

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Speaker 2: nexus that is treating people like Livestock, and Thomas Thistle

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Speaker 2: was like, what a cool idea. Why don't idea exactly right?

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Speaker 3: Well, you described it so well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because it's like all the people who the worst,

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Speaker 4: like tech bros, will bring up like the Matrix as

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Speaker 4: and it's like they completely missed the point and like

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Speaker 4: and people, Yeah, it's wild.

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Speaker 3: It's like you completely missed it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, especially when like those anti trans tech bros are

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Speaker 2: big fans or like guys like entertainer fans. The Matrix

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Speaker 2: is like, you motherfuckers missed the point as hard as

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Speaker 2: it could be missed.

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Speaker 3: You ever actually looked at this movie?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not like the authors are around, they've

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Speaker 2: talked about this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like this is what it means.

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Speaker 3: We'll never know.

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Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, okay, so I think part of the

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Speaker 2: big impact that this this satire satiric work has on

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Speaker 2: Thomas is the way in which the author described human

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Speaker 2: breeding in agricultural terms, and I'm going to quote a

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Speaker 2: passage from this book. It is then easy to be

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Speaker 2: conceived that by ridding the women of the plagues and

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Speaker 2: fatigue of gestation, they may team anew at much shorter

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Speaker 2: intervals of time. They may then become like those fertile

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Speaker 2: fields that yield two or three crops in a season,

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Speaker 2: and their fecundity will only be limited by such small

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Speaker 2: reposes as the necessity of lying fallow will require for

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Speaker 2: the reparation of the ground. They will continue longer able

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Speaker 2: and apt for impregnation, so that, upon a moderate estimate,

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Speaker 2: a well disposed, well constituted, and industrious woman may furnish

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Speaker 2: her country with one hundred and thirty to one hundred

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Speaker 2: and forty or more children. So it's very much like

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Speaker 2: again talking about women like a field and talking about

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Speaker 2: human babies as crops. You know, you can see a

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Speaker 2: GIF is supposed to like this. I think Miller is

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Speaker 2: saying this is bad, right, that's why it's a satire.

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Speaker 2: But this or what is just like what a cue?

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Speaker 4: Yeah as well, because it's even you say now I'm

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Speaker 4: like it's satire. But then I'm like, I don't know

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Speaker 4: how far we've Like, right, some people may look at

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Speaker 4: that today and you know, there's the whole childwise breeders

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Speaker 4: then look at that and be like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look at the the pro natalist movement, right, Like there's

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Speaker 2: more than a little of that in here, right, Like

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Speaker 2: the of this, like, yeah, we can breed stronger and

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Speaker 2: better people to improve the nature of society. It always

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Speaker 2: gets to be a problem when you're thinking about like

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Speaker 2: how can we how can we make the next generation,

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Speaker 2: like tinker with it genetically to make it better? Which

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Speaker 2: is I mean, that's part of what's interesting. This is

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Speaker 2: in seventeen fifty two, this comes out and it is

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Speaker 2: kind of talking about like genetic engineering in a way, right,

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Speaker 2: and before we knew what those words meant. But it's

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Speaker 2: a proto tract in that line of like science fiction, right,

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Speaker 2: Like there's there's bits of Gatica in this, right, like

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Speaker 2: that Gatica has bits of this in its DNA, if

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Speaker 2: you'll forgive the term, right, the movie Gatica this idea

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Speaker 2: of like we're well, by changing this, we make people

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Speaker 2: that are heartier and stronger and we can ship them

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Speaker 2: over sea. We're creating plantations of men, right, That's what

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Speaker 2: Miller writes in this book. And then we'll ship all

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Speaker 2: these people that we've grown like crops over to populate

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Speaker 2: the colonies. Quote. By this means we shall see infinite

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Speaker 2: broods of subjects serve to in people and enrich as

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Speaker 2: well as our island, as those vast tracts in North

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Speaker 2: America which are so thinly inhabited, which are now obligated

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Speaker 2: to be stocked with other foreign refugees. A naturalization bill

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Speaker 2: will thus be out of the question. We may also

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Speaker 2: then more reasonably grasp the conquest of both the indies,

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Speaker 2: our actual possessions and those which we shall infallibly by

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Speaker 2: dint of superior numbers procure, will be abundantly supplied with

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Speaker 2: swarms of our own subjects and become as populous as

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Speaker 2: China itself. And part again, there's this knowledge that we're

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Speaker 2: only peopling the new world we need. It's mostly slaves

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Speaker 2: in a lot of these colonies, right, slaves or local

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Speaker 2: people that we're ruling, because British people can't survive that

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Speaker 2: way well in all of these places, right. And part

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Speaker 2: of the joke that Miller's like, He's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: what if we could get rid of all of these

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Speaker 2: non white people by just outbreeding them with these human

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Speaker 2: beings we grew on a field and again saying that

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Speaker 2: to satirize a lot of the attitudes at his time.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think everyone gets is interprets it that way.

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Speaker 2: We know Thistlewood owned a copy of this book after

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Speaker 2: it was published, and he wrote about it in his

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Speaker 2: diary several times. I don't know that he picked up

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Speaker 2: the critique of aristocratic family dynamics, but the idea of

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Speaker 2: peopling newly conquered territory and improving the quality of new

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Speaker 2: generations was clearly on his mind, and that's how he

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Speaker 2: saw a lot of what he was doing. I found

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Speaker 2: very little analysis of his impact of this the impactless

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Speaker 2: book had on him, other than what Heather vver Mullin writes,

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Speaker 2: Thomas Thistlewood has a lot of male biographers, and they

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Speaker 2: mostly ignore this kind of stuff. When a lot of

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Speaker 2: them ignore the fact that he's committing sex crimes at all, right,

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Speaker 2: like some of them like the most some of them

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Speaker 2: will say is that like, Well, there's some debate as

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Speaker 2: to whether or not you know, what he was doing

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Speaker 2: was consensual, and it's like, well, there's really not like

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Speaker 2: he owned these people. Yeah they couldn't read Latin, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of like this stuff gets mixed. Vermullin

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Speaker 2: is one of the only female scholars that I've seen

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Speaker 2: analyzed this Wood's writing, and she does center the man

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Speaker 2: this book in her discussions of why he wrote about

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Speaker 2: his sex crimes the way she did when discussing passages

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Speaker 2: from Miller's book that he exerpted for his diary, she

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Speaker 2: concludes Thistlewood transcribes these passages after he has begun his

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Speaker 2: classification of enslaved women in rape records, which suggests that

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Speaker 2: his practice has preceded, or at least existed in reciprocal

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Speaker 2: relationship to his engagement of pseudoscientific theory. In other words,

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Speaker 2: he does start writing about what he's doing. It's like

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Speaker 2: he would consider his sexual exploits before he reads this book,

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Speaker 2: but the way he quotes from it suggests that he

353
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Speaker 2: considers it to justify a provided justification to his behavior right,

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Speaker 2: and that justification may have helped him continue to find

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Speaker 2: ways to explain to himself why what he was doing

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Speaker 2: was okay, right.

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Speaker 4: It's like finding yeah, like the echo chambers sort of

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Speaker 4: like looking for more signs that he's going down the

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Speaker 4: right path.

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Speaker 2: Right right exactly, Like that's something he's got to do

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Speaker 2: for himself. Here we know that during the week in

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Speaker 2: which he first reads The Man Planned, he oversees the

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Speaker 2: harvest season at his plantation, and he chooses to mark

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Speaker 2: the occasion by picking out another victim to sexually assault.

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Speaker 2: Immediately after the entry in which he notes that he's

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Speaker 2: finished this book, he writes, am kum eve suptear in

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Speaker 2: the old Negro house. Paid a bit, right, In other words,

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Speaker 2: he slept with this woman, assaulted her on the ground,

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Speaker 2: that's what supterum means it near the slave house, and

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Speaker 2: he paid her the equivalent of like a dollar or two, right,

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Speaker 2: And so that that's coming in immediately after he like

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Speaker 2: exerts passages from this book. These things exist his like

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Speaker 2: intellectual diet, and then the things that he is doing

374
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,719
Speaker 2: and justifying based on the stuff he's reading all exists

375
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Speaker 2: kind of in the same continuum together Vermilini's lanes. In

376
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Speaker 2: other words, after noting that he returned to text that

377
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 2: imagined plantations of men thistlewood records that he raped enslaved

378
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Speaker 2: woman named Eve, and that he did so at the

379
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,440
Speaker 2: estate's current harvest site. Put differently, in an engineered Eden,

380
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 2: the pseudoscientist Vincent Miller grew his ter Philius from an

381
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 2: egg extracted from the womb of his gardener's daughter, Thistle

382
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Speaker 2: would mark the time of harvest by raping an enslaved

383
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Speaker 2: woman named Eve. Right, there's this weird degree to which

384
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Speaker 2: what he's noting down and the things that he's partaking,

385
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 2: he makes them almost fit the things that he's doing.

386
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Speaker 3: See, this is why I men shouldn't be allowed to read.

387
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 1: You know.

388
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,159
Speaker 3: It's like ideas.

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Speaker 2: Well, I got good news about literacy levels.

390
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 3: Too many ideas rapes.

391
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Speaker 4: You know.

392
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Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, this is why you need this is why

393
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 2: maybe it's useful sometimes to like do your This is

394
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 2: the danger of the autodidact is encountering too much about

395
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,679
Speaker 2: the world outside the context of having to talk with

396
00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 2: other people about it. Right, who might be like, I don't, man,

397
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 2: it seems like seems like he might have gone some

398
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 2: crazy places with this. Maybe you're just using all this

399
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 2: stuff you're reading as a justification to be shitty to people.

400
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 2: But you know, he's in a way. I think this

401
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 2: is a product of the fact that he's isolated from

402
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 2: the intellectual culture he's obsessed with. It's not a two

403
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 2: way relationship. He's digesting these books and these articles, and

404
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 2: he's talking with them about them with other white exiles,

405
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 2: and he probably probably part of his ego is that

406
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 2: he seems like a learned man among this population of exiles.

407
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,919
Speaker 2: But he also knows he's not really fit to be

408
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:39,360
Speaker 2: part of the intellectual community that he admires, right, And

409
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 2: some of that is shown in the fact that he

410
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,640
Speaker 2: doesn't really understand everything he's reading.

411
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 3: He doesn't get it, he seems to not. It goes

412
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 3: over his head.

413
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, he may not get everything right, or at least

414
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 2: not the way that it's meant to be gotten. Now,

415
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,120
Speaker 2: when Thistlewood starts buying people of his own soon after

416
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 2: he starts working as the overseer at Egypt Plantation, Eve

417
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 2: is not one of them. This woman that we just

418
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 2: talked about, she belonged to the Cope family, who were

419
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 2: his employers, and as was often the case of female

420
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 2: enslaved people, Eve lived under the surveillance of the matron

421
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,400
Speaker 2: of the plantation, Missus Cope. Was not great at this job,

422
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 2: and it's a market. How unhappy Eve was that she

423
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 2: escaped frequently, And this is some ofhow we get how

424
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 2: Thomas would have punished the people that he was overseeing

425
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: while he's working at this plantation. On March third, seventeen

426
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 2: fifty five, Thistlewood wrote that Eve was one of four

427
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 2: people who escaped that day. The next day, he wrote,

428
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 2: William Crookshanks, a white worker. Below Thistlewood brought Eve into

429
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 2: the savannah to her mistress, missus Cope, but she soon

430
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 2: made her escape again. Below this, Thomas notes in small

431
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: print he slept with her under the logwood. So what

432
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,679
Speaker 2: he is saying there is that this other white worker

433
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 2: catches Eve after she gets out, and he brings her

434
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,359
Speaker 2: back to the big house, and she escapes again, and

435
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,160
Speaker 2: William catches her again and then he rapes her as

436
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: like a punishment for escaping, or maybe just because it's

437
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 2: what he wanted to do. Right. Part of what we're

438
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 2: getting here is how this is not just Thomas engaging

439
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 2: in this behavior. This is all of the white people,

440
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 2: all of the white men, particularly on these farms, are

441
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 2: doing this habitually. Like it's incredible how casually. He notes this, Right,

442
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 2: what Crookshanks does, This is not even like a significant

443
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 2: deal to him. It's just like, well, of course he

444
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 2: recaptured this woman, and he did that as he was

445
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 2: taking her back, right, And Vermulin goes on to note,

446
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 2: quote the following week, after dinner for heartily drunk white

447
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 2: male colonists, all Thistlewood's acquaintances hauled Eve separately into the

448
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 2: water room. The bathroom, and we're concerned with which means

449
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: raped her one of them, his good friend Harry Weach twice,

450
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: first and last. The following month, Eve ran away two

451
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: more times and again, Like this is both how they're

452
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: trying to punish this woman and how they're justifying to themselves,

453
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 2: like well, she escaped, so we have to do this,

454
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 2: you know. It's and it's so casual, like none of

455
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 2: them even think about it, Like this is the normal

456
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: behavior for white men in the society, is to commit

457
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: like rape at the drop of a hat against these

458
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 2: people that they own, right, Like that is the normal behavior.

459
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's also with it.

460
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 4: I yeah, even within like what you're saying in the

461
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 4: context of the time, I sense a lot of discrepancies

462
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 4: because it's like, on one hand, he's justifying his recording

463
00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 4: of it as like science and you know, making sure

464
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 4: he knows who he's fothering. But then when he's with

465
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 4: his friends, he's saying like, oh, we're just doing this

466
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 4: to punish her. But like that also would contradict him

467
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 4: being the father if everyone's raping her. And so there's

468
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 4: this like already, like you can tell the the arguments

469
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 4: shakey to begin with, like clearly like what we understand,

470
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 4: like this man's doing bad things and it's driven by

471
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 4: you know, his bad motives, and then looking for different justifications,

472
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 4: but they don't even they're not even.

473
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 3: Consistent, because if he's trying to.

474
00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 4: Father someone, he wouldn't be like actively wanting other men

475
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 4: to father children with her, right because you wouldn't legally

476
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 4: be the dad.

477
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 2: No, And I mean that's I think part of what

478
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 2: that hint said here is that what matters more to

479
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 2: him even than that is like it's not just the

480
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: idea of like, well, I want to insert my DNA

481
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,879
Speaker 2: into this population as part of the civilizing act, but

482
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: the very act of asserting sexual dominance over these people

483
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: we own is us civilizing the wild world. That's a

484
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: lot how these guys are think that's and what's interesting

485
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 2: is part of what you get from this is because

486
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 2: Thistlewood doesn't write about what his colleagues are doing to

487
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: these women the same way he does about himself. He

488
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 2: doesn't put it in Latin, right, he uses these kind

489
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: of body terms. They were concerned with her, right, which

490
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 2: is commonly meant you know, had sex with kind of

491
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 2: when people were writing about this sort of thing.

492
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: So he puts that in English.

493
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: Yes, that's in English, So he's okay.

494
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: Like kind of like airing ou their dirty laundry, but not.

495
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, and I think there's a degree to

496
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 2: which he does kind of think he's better than them

497
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: and see what he's doing, even though it's not as

498
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 2: different and better right, because Eve, I mean, this is

499
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 2: a year's long thing for them, Like she runs away

500
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: repeatedly because clearly her life is a nightmare, and Thomas

501
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: will rape her repeatedly again right, often sometimes it incites

502
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: her escaping, sometimes he does it after she escapes. But

503
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 2: he does it constantly, and he writes about him doing

504
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: it fundamentally differently than he writes about his friends doing it,

505
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: which is does say something, right, It talks about the

506
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 2: incoherence in his worldview, as you pointed out, and it

507
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: just also I think it shows this kind of narcissism

508
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 2: that he does think that he's special and that what

509
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 2: he's doing is different than them. Right. So the night

510
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: after this I mentioned in episode one, he's in a

511
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 2: long term what he would call a relationship. We're not

512
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: calling at that, but it's important to talk about how

513
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: he describes it with this enslaved woman Fiba, right, phibbah

514
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 2: is how he spells it, and so she he has.

515
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: Ostensibly there's an extent to which he feels at least

516
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: a little accountable to her, like because he talks to

517
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: her like she she like's he comes back to her

518
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: pretty regularly, and it clearly at least matters. When she's

519
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: pissed at him and the way he describes it, she

520
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: gets angry because she thinks of this as like them,

521
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 2: him cheating on her, right, and I this is kind

522
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: of again, this isn't a relations This is like a

523
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: parody of an actual relationship, like a sick like it's

524
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: it's a perversion of everything that that's supposed to be.

525
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: But he does write about it like that, right, He

526
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: describes the fact that after he goes over to her

527
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: after assaulting Eve again, Phibi seems much out of humor

528
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: about Eve yesterday, and he's angry and he doesn't know

529
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: who can have told her? Right, Like, who the hell

530
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: let her know what I did to this woman? Right?

531
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 3: And mad just Maddie got caught?

532
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, And is she angry because of what he's

533
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 2: doing to this person, because of the fundamental inequalities, or

534
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: is she more just angry because like she sees him

535
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 2: as this person that she's in a relationship with and

536
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: he cheated on her? How does how we will never

537
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: know what this looked like in her head? Right, because

538
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: we don't get he's not interested in asking her. He

539
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: doesn't talk to her, like we only get pieces of

540
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: her from the outside, like we do of all of

541
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: these people that he owns and is abusing, So to

542
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 2: talk about Eve again. She escapes in the early fall,

543
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 2: and she manages to stay free almost the entire month

544
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 2: of October. When she was caught, Thomas quote whipped and

545
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: chained her. She subsequently escaped once more and was brought

546
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: home on December twenty third and chained again. The next day,

547
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 2: she escaped and was brought back the day after that,

548
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: whereupon Thomas chained her in the cookroom. This pattern continued

549
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: for years. When she ran away and was caught in

550
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: the spring of seventeen fifty seven, Thistlewood reported her punishment

551
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: thusly tied her to the oven post and gave her

552
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: a little correction. Now that phrasing could mean a lot,

553
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: And so that's as good as segue for any as

554
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: me to discuss the corporal punishment on the plantation as

555
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: it existed in the time in which Thomas was doing

556
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: his job and ed kinds of violence that he and

557
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: his peers meeted out on the people that they owned.

558
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: But first bad time for an ad break. Huhugh, yep, sorry,

559
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: wof and we're back.

560
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 3: So oh no more. There's more you did put You

561
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: did say it would get worse, so you did warm me.

562
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: It keeps getting worse.

563
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

564
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 2: And I think one of the ways in which even

565
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: pretty good histories now are often kind of short is

566
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: that they talk about whipping, and they talk about the

567
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: amount of violence, which is important, and they even talk

568
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: about like the amunosexual violence, but there's often not detailed

569
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: accountings given on like some of the most sadistic punishments.

570
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: And part of it's because we'll talk about this in

571
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: a little bit, but even some historians are really uncomfortable

572
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: talking about the details of the sadism of the punishments

573
00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: that white people engaged in in places like Jamaica. And

574
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: it is really upsetting to talk about Thomas arrived in

575
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: Jamaica as a practiced farmer and an amateur naturalist, and

576
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: there's no evidence that prior to arriving here he was

577
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: a violent man or had ever so much as struck

578
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: another person. Maybe he had, maybe he'd been in a

579
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: lot of fights, but he didn't write about it, right,

580
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: We don't know if he had not been violent prior

581
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: to coming to Jamaica. This changed rapidly upon starting work

582
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: at a plantation. On his first day working as assistant

583
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: overseer on his first plantation on the island, his boss

584
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 2: ordered him to give three hundred lashes to his driver,

585
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: who was one of the oldest enslaved people on the property.

586
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: Thistlewood delivered the punishment, which was likely ordered as much

587
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: to toughen him up as to punish the enslave man

588
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 2: in question. Right, there's this new white guy on the farm.

589
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: We got to have him beat the absolute hell out

590
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: of the most like, sympathetic and liked person on the

591
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: enslaved persons. Yes, are you cruel enough for this job? Yeah?

592
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: And he proves cruel enough for the job. Now, as

593
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 2: I noted, Jamaica was reputed for being a really the

594
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: egalitarian place for white men. Right, even poor white men

595
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: would be treated well by the rich white men. And

596
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: part of why is because there's this there's this understanding

597
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: that everyone will bind together when it's time to do

598
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: violence against the much larger enslave majority. James Robertson writes

599
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: that quote the generous hospitality of a planter's household rested

600
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: on uninhibited violence in the fields. This will would absorb

601
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: this lesson and continue to order floggings for the rest

602
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: of his life in Jamaica. And yeah, that is. It's

603
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: one of these things. He exists in Jamaica during the

604
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: high point of slavery and slave plantations on the island,

605
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: both because the weather is unusually good during like thirty

606
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: seven years that he's there and so harvests are really good.

607
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: It's just a good time climactically to be growing sugar

608
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: in Jamaica. And also there's no limits whatsoever on slavery

609
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: right while he is there, and that's going to start

610
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: to change after he dies. In seventeen eighty nine, not

611
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: long after he passes, anti slavery advocates are going to testify,

612
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: it part in Westminster, about the abuse of enslaved people

613
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: in Jamaica. Robertson writes about this quote. These included. The

614
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: testimony included cruel beatings occurring not just out on lonely estates,

615
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: but in gardens in Savannah Lamar, the parish's principal port or.

616
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: Only a hedge separated passers by from the victim's screams.

617
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: More frightening. Still, while the witnesses stated the cries were

618
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: heard with universal detestation, the perpetrator was not brought to

619
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: legal punishment. Historians of slavery have made little use of

620
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: these remarkable depositions, despite their early date. The arguments for

621
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: disregarding such vivid testimonies was because the nascent abolitionist movement

622
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: found these witnesses, so their evidence can hardly be objective.

623
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: This was first offered by slavery's always plausible apologists, and

624
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 2: then repeated by historians unwilling to believe how vile slaveholding

625
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 2: societies could be. Such judicious denials helped preserve the illusion

626
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: that such horrors could not exist in a British colony.

627
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: So there's even this problem with a lot of histories

628
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: where they're like, we can't take these accounts by anti

629
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: slavery activists of how brutal the system was as literal

630
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: because they're by is.

631
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 3: Because they're saying they're not accountable.

632
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 4: Who's it'd be crazy if you don't have a bias.

633
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: I mean like it's it's like what you were saying

634
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 4: about historians not leaving those details out because it's like

635
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: it's hard and hard to talk about.

636
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 3: I mean literally, that's the first sign that it's so bad.

637
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: Yet this is really wait a minute, yeah I can't.

638
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, people just walking by hearing it are like, this

639
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 4: is like I don't even like fu.

640
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: Yeah are people who you know?

641
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 4: I just like, if I have to look at it,

642
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 4: I don't like it. And that's maybe the sign that

643
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 4: we've gone too far.

644
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: That's an important part of the history of slavery too.

645
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: It's not just the people like Thomas who are just

646
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 2: like deeply have completely given their souls up to this

647
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: pit of evil, but the people who like kind of

648
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 2: walk by it for like ten minutes and are like, wow,

649
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: that seems really bad. I got a place to be,

650
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: Like I gotta get moving, you know, like I gotta

651
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: I gotta get to work or whatever, Like, yeah, that's bad,

652
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: but like I got shipped to do. You know. It's

653
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: the It's the same thing in every society to an extent,

654
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: when you talk about the stuff that's horrible but widely accepted,

655
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: is there's a large number of people who always knows

656
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: something's wrong, but like, bro, I gotta make rent, you know,

657
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: like yeah, good stuff. So, as we saw in the

658
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: case when we were talking about Eve, people who often

659
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: escaped numerous times and would be whipped numerous times when

660
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: they were taken back by slave catchers, and when this

661
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: didn't stop them from trying to escape, slave owners and

662
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: overseers developed more elaborate methods of punishment. One that acted

663
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: as a sort of garnish to flogging was pickling. Right,

664
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: So if you if they need want to flog you,

665
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: but you've already been flogged, they will, or if you

666
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: do something particularly bad, they'll pickle you after they flog you.

667
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: And that's a literal term. You take pickle spices and

668
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: salt and lime juice and peppers and you rub them

669
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: in the open wounds that you whipped into their body.

670
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 2: Oh us, correct, that's a normal punishment. It's like a

671
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: normal thing that this guy Tom. That's his part of

672
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: his day job. He does it, like yeah, like like

673
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: what I think about, like something you have to do

674
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: like once or twice at least like a couple of

675
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: times a week at your day job. And it's like

676
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: that for him, right, Like that's that's his gig, you know.

677
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 2: On a website called Same Passage, I found a detailed

678
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: account of torture methods that Thomas listed in his writings.

679
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 2: These include, in seventeen fifty six, runaway enslaved people named

680
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 2: Punch and Quackou were quote well flogged and then washed

681
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 2: and rubbed in salt, pickle, lime juice, and bird pepper

682
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: as noted with eve chains were also used as a punishment.

683
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 2: In seventeen seventy one, a runaway named Cuba was flogged, chained,

684
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: and then had a brand marked into her forehead. So

685
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: she was had a brand like burned into her head. Right,

686
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 2: there's some evidence.

687
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 3: Sorry, I like it's bad. I'm still here, but this

688
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: is we.

689
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: Could take a minute. This is all the worst stuff

690
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 2: that people have ever done. Yeah.

691
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 3: Uh, I don't know what to say, but I mean there.

692
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: Is part of what I'm frust Part of what like

693
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: was upsetting as I read this was how little of

694
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,760
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff I had heard of, considering myself

695
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 2: reasonably rerit well read. I think I'd heard a little

696
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 2: about pickling as like a thing that some particular sadists

697
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: did as opposed to like no, no, no, this was

698
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: like a norm, like this is a very normal thing

699
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: to do, Like this was kind of the escalation shainn

700
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: up from the first flogging, right as you pickle these guys.

701
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 3: And I.

702
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 2: Hate getting into this next part. Tit. I really apologize for, Like,

703
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 2: I don't like having to talk about this. There's no

704
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 2: good way to talk about this. So I'm just going

705
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: to read this and you know, we can move past it,

706
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 2: because this is bad. In seventeen fifty six, Thomas writes

707
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: that an enslaved person named Derby was caught eating sugarcane

708
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: and was whipped and then he made Thomas made another

709
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: enslaved person named Egypt shit in his mouth. Months later,

710
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: when Derby was caught eating sugarcane again, he was flogged

711
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 2: and pickled, and then Thomas made Hector shit in his mouth.

712
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: This was a normal punishment in Jamaica. It's not the

713
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 2: only place where it was done, but this was something

714
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: that was extensively done by slave owners and overseers on

715
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: the island. They would force enslaved people to defecate in

716
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: each other's mouths as a punishment. Depending on the severity

717
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: of the crime, the victim might even have their mouth

718
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: gagged and covered while that was the shit was still

719
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: in there for extended periods of time as part of

720
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: the punishment. Right, this is a thing that there's a

721
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: version of this called Derby's dose. That's a really common

722
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 2: extreme punishment on the island, and it's done. It's not

723
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: just done for slaves who like escape. Sometimes like someone

724
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: steals some sugar or some food and you just do

725
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: this insane thing to them, and it's like there's a

726
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: degree to which it's almost a method of entertainment for

727
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 2: some of these white guys is coming up with these

728
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 2: increasingly sadistic and fucked up and elaborate ways to hurt

729
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: the people that they own. But if you need to

730
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: know anything about the moral quality of the white men

731
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: on Jamaica at the time, Like a lot of the

732
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: common punishments involved rubbing shit into people's mouths or open wounds.

733
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 2: That was a normal thing they would do, right, Yeah.

734
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: I deeply disturbed.

735
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: It's upsetting. Yeah, it's it's as bad as it gets, right.

736
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: And the only good news that I can give you,

737
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: if indeed it counts as good, is that most of

738
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: these punishments seem to have died out after like seventeen

739
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: fifty six, fifty seven, Right, this is kind of when

740
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 2: Thomas starts doing this less and less. We don't know it.

741
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: Maybe this kind of just fell out of popularity. Maybe

742
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: it was it was so damaging to the workforce that

743
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: they stopped doing it. We don't really know. But this

744
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 2: is something that exists and is normal for a while

745
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: while he's early in his career, and it's it stops

746
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: being normal kind of somewhat later in the period of

747
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: time that he's there. But it's a pretty common like

748
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 2: Derby's dose is a thing that other people are doing

749
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 2: in Jamaica to the people that they owned. Thomas spins

750
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 2: is first seventeen years on the island working for other planters,

751
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,959
Speaker 2: primarily in Egypt. In seventeen sixty he made a note

752
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 2: of his active preparations to purchase land of his own,

753
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 2: and seventeen sixty seven he'd saved up enough to buy

754
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 2: one hundred and sixty acre farm, which he named bread

755
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: Nut Island. He'd been purchasing people this whole time, and

756
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: he'd made extra money that led him buy the land

757
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: by renting them out to his boss. And though so

758
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 2: by the time he buys this plantation, he owns like

759
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 2: thirty people, and he moves them onto this plantation that

760
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: he owns right. In an article for the social historian

761
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: Barbara Starman's Writes of his human acquisitions, he wrote of

762
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 2: purchasing several slaves, remarking that he paid one hundred and

763
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 2: twelve pounds for two men and two hundred pounds for

764
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: one boy and three girls. The two men were named

765
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 2: Will and Dick. Will was about twenty five years old

766
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: and stood five foot three and a half three and

767
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 2: two tenths of an inch, and Dick was about twenty

768
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 2: two years old and taller at five feet seven tenths

769
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 2: of an inch. The boys and girls were Kuba, aged

770
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: about fifteen. Suki aged about fourteen, Maria aged about fifteen,

771
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: and Pompey, aged about sixteen. All were branded with Thistlewood's

772
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: mark a double TT on their right shoulders. Because he's

773
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: scarring all of these people that he owns in order

774
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: to prove it, well, does t T Yeah?

775
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: IKND like that he goes back.

776
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't think about that either, But

777
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 2: it's it's with Thistlewood.

778
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 3: Right, he's justis but Thomas.

779
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: Thistlewood, yes, but yes, unfortunately, yeah, sorry.

780
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 3: No, there's other there's other TT's out there.

781
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: There's a yeah. Yeah, I feel his dad was a

782
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 2: dick and named Robert. So you know, we're all there,

783
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: you we're.

784
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: Both represented here.

785
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, well both of our names have come up in

786
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 2: this fucked up episode. Uh So, now that he's independent, right,

787
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: he's on, he's he's a planter. Now he's risen to

788
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 2: the very top of Jamaican society right about sixteen years

789
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: in and he's working his own property with like the

790
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: people that he owns, he's making them work. One thing

791
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: I'll say for him is that he vaccinates his his

792
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: the people he owns, which like Thomas Jefferson didn't, he

793
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: doesn't do this because he's a nice man. He does

794
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: this because he doesn't want them to die of smallpox,

795
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: because they're valuable assets. Right now, that said he could

796
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: you know this is he is a guy. I think

797
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: he wanted to see himself as a nice master. He

798
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,839
Speaker 2: makes an note of every like nice thing that he

799
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: does for the people that he owns, like around Christmas,

800
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: but he gave them each eighteen herrings and a bottle

801
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: of rum. Some of them he made share bottles of rum. Right,

802
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 2: not everyone got their own bottle of rum. But he

803
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: like he writes about this stuff, is like, see, I

804
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 2: could be a nice guy. I'm not always a huge

805
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 2: dick to Everybody's definitely.

806
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: A sign of a not nice person when they keep

807
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 3: a tally.

808
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 4: Of every nice thing they do have documentary, Yeah I don't.

809
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's definitely re fly.

810
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 2: Yeah he's going through his own diaries being like, boy,

811
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: I need to revise this a little. I come across

812
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,439
Speaker 2: as a monster. I'll say I gave him herring.

813
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 3: He writes it like Latin.

814
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 4: He like writes it in multiple languages just in case

815
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 4: you guys get that.

816
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like putting it in French too. People need

817
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 2: to know I gave him rum.

818
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 4: Sometimes the draw a photo of it just in case

819
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 4: you can't read.

820
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, here's a picture of me giving all my yeah,

821
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 3: all my employees or slaves.

822
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of posed pictures of him handing rum

823
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,280
Speaker 2: bottles to scared looking men and women like speak thinking

824
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 2: of not I mean rum, maybe rum. I don't know

825
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: if we'll get ads for that. We'll get adds for something.

826
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 2: Here they are, we're back talking about this monastery, how

827
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: much we're through the most like graphic horror that we're

828
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: going to talk about, which I mean, there's a lot

829
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 2: more that could be. You can read more about that

830
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: kind of stuff if you want to. It's bleak, you know, I.

831
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 4: Pretty like okay pregnancy in terms of like not crying spontaneously.

832
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 4: But you know what, I think we're gonna we're gonna

833
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 4: challenge that today.

834
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well unfortunately, yeah, we have a little bit of

835
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: that coming up here too. Uh yeah. So I can't

836
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: give you a lot of positive stories here, But one

837
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 2: sort of good thing is that during his yeah ye

838
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 2: a low note. One of the positives of his situations

839
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 2: that while he's working at Egypt Plantation, he does he's

840
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 2: he's like a gardener. He really likes plants. He writes

841
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: about them a lot, and he develops a preference for

842
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 2: this specific plant, Bromeliad penguin, which he uses as like

843
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: a natural fence for parts of the farms he works on.

844
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: And then when he gets his own plantation, he moves

845
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 2: these plants, which people call prickly penguins, to keep pests

846
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: away from his personal gardens. And he doesn't know this

847
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: about them, but they're an herbal aborde fascian, right, And

848
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: there's evidence that a lot of the women who live

849
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 2: on these plantations, both when he's an overseer and then

850
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 2: when he owns one, know how this plant can be

851
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: used and don't tell him and use it to stop

852
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: him themselves from carrying his kids to term. Right, Like,

853
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 2: there's evidence again, when you talk about this, there's always

854
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 2: resistance happening, even if it's not well documented, Even if

855
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: the historic record doesn't give it to us directly, you

856
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 2: can tell he writes about like, wow, there's a lot

857
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: of what he calls miscarriages among these women that he

858
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: thought were going to carry kids to term. And we

859
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: know from other things that some of these women were

860
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 2: using this plant as an herbal Abortifacio, and he didn't know.

861
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 4: But he's kept a diary of other ways to give

862
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 4: people miscarriages.

863
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 2: Right, but he didn't know about Like again, his knowledge

864
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: is never as white as he wants as he thinks

865
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: it is. Right, and this is I think there's something. Well,

866
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: it's evidence of these people who were in like the

867
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: worst situation imaginable taking some agency for themselves, right, some

868
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: choice of like I'm not going to do this for you.

869
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 2: I'm not going to deliver you a kid that you'll

870
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: then own, Right, I have an ability to control that,

871
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 2: and I'm going to write And that's an important part

872
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: of the story is like the agency. These people who

873
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: had very little options for exercising agency were able to

874
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: like fight for right and and they had to like

875
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 2: do it underground, they had to hide it, but they

876
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:56,240
Speaker 2: did do it right anyway. I feel like I've detailed

877
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: enough of his horrible sex crimes to get across the

878
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: gravity of his to you. But there is one area

879
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: I want more. Well, there's one thing we should say

880
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: that I'm not going to go into detail on, but

881
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 2: I will tell you he talks a lot about pedophilia.

882
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: That is another aspect of this, right, that's something he's doing.

883
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: He will buy girls when they were eleven or twelve,

884
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: and he will not long after assault them.

885
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: He definitely is up there on the list of worst motherfuckers.

886
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 2: He's just about the worst person I've ever heard from.

887
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: Directly, Jesus.

888
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, the fact that it's his own diary, and I

889
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 4: don't believe that he was one of the normal ones.

890
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,280
Speaker 3: I think there were just a lot of bad people.

891
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 4: I feel like I still want to hold my like

892
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 4: I don't know if like maybe all the bad people

893
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 4: were there, but like, you know, if he was a

894
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 4: normal really this guy does not sound normal.

895
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: Among owners of slave plantations. He's normal, right, That's very

896
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 2: few people even within slave societies. But like so it is,

897
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 2: it is these are the worst, the worst. He's a

898
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: normal example of the worst people ever.

899
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the worst. Yeah, I see.

900
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: Well that's important. Like when you get these, for example,

901
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: sanitized stories fiction and otherwise about like the pre Civil

902
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: war like South in the US, that like depicts how

903
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: oh look at these beautiful houses and this like cordial

904
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: civil society right undergirding it is the same shit, Thomas. This,

905
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: it is the exact same kind of sex crimes the

906
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: same kind of sadistic violence, rubbing shit into open wounds

907
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: and pickling people and whatnot. Just like, that's all of

908
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: these guys wearing these fancy coats who got painted in

909
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: their plantation houses. They're all the same kind of guy

910
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: as Thomas Thistlewood. Right, those are the people who are

911
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: the same. Right, All of these people who own human

912
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: beings and make their living off of it are all

913
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 2: doing shit like this. None of them are particularly better

914
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 2: than the others.

915
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 4: Right.

916
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: I think that's kind of the important thing to take

917
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: out of Thistlewood's work, of his life's work, his diaries.

918
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's not an isolated incidence. We can't just project

919
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 4: like one bad guy.

920
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah what a crazy No, no, no, this is his

921
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: whole society. Yeah yeah, yeah, I I oh yeah.

922
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 3: So you got one more? One more not a terrible thing.

923
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's there's I mean, I don't know, it's

924
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 2: this like debate in my head of like how how

925
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: how much detail do we go into here? You're I

926
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 2: want to talk a little bit about this girl he

927
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: buys best when she's eleven years old, and he buys

928
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: her as a gift for Phiba, Right, This this woman

929
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: who he does not own. Someone else owns her, and

930
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 2: he is renting her and she is living with him

931
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 2: as his significant other. Right, it's a very odd. It's

932
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 2: a very it's not a weird relationship within this culture.

933
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: This kind of stuff happens all the time, but it's

934
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,479
Speaker 2: like weird pains contemplate. Yeah, he's paying for a white

935
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: person right to have who owns Phiba? Right, he does

936
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: buy her freedom when he dies kind of, but like, yeah,

937
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: it's it's a very like that is the situation here,

938
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 2: and he he buys her a little girl to be

939
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,359
Speaker 2: basically her personal slave. Right, And for the first couple

940
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 2: of years that this girl best is there. She's an

941
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 2: assistant to Fiba, and she's he also uses her as

942
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 2: a runner. Right, He'll send this this little girl, this

943
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 2: eleven year old girl running across the island on foot,

944
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: and he'll to bring exchange books with his friends on

945
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: other plantations. She's his postal service in a way. Right.

946
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 2: Like there's one point where like he sends a letter

947
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 2: to a doctor friend of his and she runs back

948
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: to him with a copy of the works of Francis

949
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,479
Speaker 2: Bacon that he that this guy he sent a letter

950
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: to sends back with her right. So this is kind

951
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: of this is how like social like. This is how

952
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 2: these guys are all staying in touch in Jamaica. It's

953
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: how they share letters and books and their thoughts on

954
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: the scientific discoveries of the day. In seventeen seventy eight,

955
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: this girl Best runs back to the plantation with a

956
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: copy of Benjamin Franklin's Experiments and Observations on Electricity. That's

957
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 2: how modern this is. Right, he finds out about the

958
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: shit ben Franklin is working on because this girl he

959
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 2: buys at eleven runs back to his house with a

960
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: copy of the book that some other white dude gave

961
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 2: her right to give to her. Master. At the same

962
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: time as this knowledge is being transmitted, abuse is being transmitted.

963
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 2: Thomas is going to sexually abuse this girl. We assume

964
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: people he's sending her to do this too. And an

965
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 2: excellent dissertation for the English Department at Northeastern University, Elizabeth

966
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 2: Polka writes, one can't help what wonder if Best spent

967
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: any time looking through Franklin and Bacon's printed works on

968
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: her journeys between the homes of these men, particularly Franklin's

969
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: Observations and Experiments which was illustrated with engraved plates depicting

970
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: Leyden jars spread in currents of Electricity One especially, he

971
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 2: wonders about Bess's interactions with a text when considering that

972
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: an August of seventeen sixty six, shortly after Thistle would

973
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: acquire his copy of Franklin's texts, Thistle would flog a

974
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 2: then twelve year old Best for meddling with my watch

975
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 2: and telescope in the Great House piazza. Three years later,

976
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 2: after inflicting punishment for interacting with the telescope, Thistle would

977
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: first recorded raping Bess. This event is marked by the

978
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: location east of the Pond was fifteen and part of Again,

979
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: these stories you don't get directly, but there's this girl

980
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: who is in this terrible situation and is very intellectually curious.

981
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: He describes her as messing with the telescope. She's trying

982
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 2: to understand this. She's trying to look out at the stars,

983
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 2: probably right, like it's not. It's very reasonable that Polka

984
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 2: wonders if she would have, during this what little time

985
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 2: she had alone, taken a glimpse at some of these books,

986
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 2: because this is clearly a curious child, right and she's

987
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: just completely locked away from exploring any of that by

988
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: the system of heinous abuse that she is never able

989
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 2: to escape, right. And this is it's important to note

990
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 2: when I talk about this not being that abnormal within

991
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: the mainstream white high society at the time. There's a

992
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 2: really good passage in Polka's dissertation that talks about like

993
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: does a good job of putting Thomas's habits and his

994
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 2: documentation of what the violence he was doing into like

995
00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: a global context. Quote Meriwether Lewis and William cla Ark,

996
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 2: Following the advice of Thomas, Jefferson, kept extensive diaries of

997
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: their North American settler colonial mission into Native territory, in

998
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: which they would occasionally record details of the sexual encounters

999
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: between the men on their surveying expedition and the Native women,

1000
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 2: as well as the spread of venereal disease. These recordings

1001
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 2: were later printed in either French or Latin by editors

1002
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: as means of coding the explicit details, just like Thistlewood did.

1003
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 2: Eighteenth century Virginia planter William Bird also kept a coded

1004
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 2: log of his sexual activity as a means of control.

1005
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 2: More specifically, Richard Godbeer explains that he was anxious to

1006
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: control himself as he was to control others. Further, Godbeer

1007
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: concludes that Bird experienced chronic tension within the Chesapeake's white

1008
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 2: population during the seventeenth century and fostered an obsession with

1009
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 2: control in colonial Southern society. While the elite's emulation of

1010
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 2: English gentry culture necessitated an intense self consciousness and careful

1011
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: scrutiny of one's personal behavior. Like Thistlewood, Bird coded his

1012
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 2: diary in shorthand. However, unlike Thistlewood, Bird's entire diary was

1013
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: coded not only the segments related to sexual exploitation, and

1014
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 2: he kept a diary in a locked library, and Kenneth

1015
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: Lockridge speculates that birds shorthand may have been intended above

1016
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 2: all to hide Bird's further encoded self from his wife.

1017
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 2: In an even more well known instance of sexual documentation,

1018
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 2: diaris Samuel Peppies, who also recorded his sex acts, occasionally

1019
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 2: coded his sexual activity in Latin as well as in

1020
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: French and Spanish. What emerges in this cross comparison of

1021
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: eighteenth century diarists is a gendered coding of sexual documentation,

1022
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 2: where Enlightenment era men use quotidian writing in order to

1023
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 2: document conceal and control their exploitation of women. That's what

1024
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: I mean when I say, like, this guy is not

1025
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:35,479
Speaker 2: that weird for his social level, you know well, and.

1026
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 4: Because women weren't so it was like a cocauzed women.

1027
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 4: Women educated couldn't read Latin.

1028
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:43,839
Speaker 2: Or were less likely to be right.

1029
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 3: I do wonder about the whole Catholic Church.

1030
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 4: I mean, I guess now they're not all Germans and Latin,

1031
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 4: But didn't they for a long time do everything in Latin?

1032
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 2: They did for a long time, and they have already crimes.

1033
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 2: And part of that, I mean, there was argument like

1034
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 2: and this is part of like the Protestant Reformation, that

1035
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,240
Speaker 2: there's this part of that is out of a desire

1036
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: to keep preaching and keep responsibility for like interpreting the

1037
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 2: Word of God out of the common man, right, right,

1038
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: you have to be learned to some extent to read

1039
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: the Bible and talk about it in Latin. And that

1040
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 2: cuts down the number of people who might be because

1041
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 2: you know, the part of the thing the Catholic Church

1042
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 2: wanted to stop was anyone who had a different opinion

1043
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 2: about Christianity going into business for themselves, which is where

1044
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,399
Speaker 2: we are right now, right like that's the way. That's

1045
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 2: what Protestant is is like anyone can go into business

1046
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: for themselves as like interpreting the word of God basically,

1047
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: So there is something to what you say, right and that.

1048
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's all those sex crimes in the Bible,

1049
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 3: so maybe.

1050
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's plenty of sex crimes all along. Yeah. Over

1051
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 2: the course of his thirty seven years in Jamaica, Thomas

1052
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: Thistlewood recorded exactly three thousand, eight hundred and fifty two

1053
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 2: sexual acts with one hundred and thirty eight different women.

1054
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 2: The vast majority of these women were enslaved. The vast

1055
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: majority of these acts would have been sexual assault, and

1056
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,760
Speaker 2: his analysis of the diary, which you'd done, estimated yeah,

1057
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 2: three and fifty two with a you know, somewhere around

1058
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty victims would be the way of

1059
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: looking at it. One of the people who analyzed the diaries,

1060
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: Richard Dunn, estimated that prior to coming to Jamaica, Thomas

1061
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 2: would have averaged at most around ten sexual encounters per year.

1062
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 2: On the island, this increased to about two hundred sometimes

1063
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 2: more so. Part of when you're looking at what motivated

1064
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: him to become a slave owner and a planter. Sexual

1065
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: opportunity is not zero percent of that story, right. He

1066
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 2: finds ways to justify it that are heavier. But this

1067
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: does come down to that, you know, That's part of

1068
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: what this comes down to. Cool stuff or so did

1069
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: he ever ever have kids or raise a family? He

1070
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: has about fourteen kids, all who are born en slaves, yep, yep,

1071
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 2: and he does. He writes about he has a child

1072
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 2: with Thiba, and he writes about punishing like having this

1073
00:53:54,160 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 2: kid whipped, you know, for in disobedience. This this child

1074
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: dies in seventeen eighty, you know, which is about six

1075
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 2: years before Thomas passes on. So his children, I mean,

1076
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 2: they're living these difficult lives. They're working on plantations, right,

1077
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 2: so they don't benefit from easy lives, right, And yeah,

1078
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:20,439
Speaker 2: I mean it's a there's a lot that's complicated here.

1079
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,600
Speaker 2: And like what's going on with him in Fhiba in

1080
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: how he sees these relationships with the people that he

1081
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 2: brings into the world this way, But it's all based

1082
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: on kinds of exploitation, right, Like that's what's happening here. Fundamentally,

1083
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 2: it's all exploitation. That's the only kind of relationship that

1084
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 2: he has with any of these people is one based

1085
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: on ownership?

1086
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: Does he at least die of something horrific?

1087
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's not really a lot of good

1088
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: ways to die in that period of time. He lives

1089
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: a long life for the era though unfortunately he doesn't

1090
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: pass until seventeen eighty six and he's sixty five years old,

1091
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: which for a white guy in Jamaica, he lives a

1092
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 2: pretty long life. And he dies, does he ever?

1093
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 3: Just like each ship just to try it out?

1094
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 4: And then so I just want to know if this

1095
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 4: man has eaten his own ship before, I mean for science, you.

1096
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 2: Know, maybe I don't know. Uh, he proad like Yeah,

1097
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 2: no documentation of him eating his own ship, but him

1098
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 2: being shitty that's most of his documentation. And yeah, there's

1099
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: a there's nothing happy to say about this story than

1100
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 2: that he does die eventually. Uh, and you know, not

1101
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: long after his death, the abolitionist movement really starts to

1102
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:37,200
Speaker 2: get going within the British Empire, and gradually this kind

1103
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 2: of stuff becomes seen as much as his coverage. As

1104
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 2: we've talked about, it's never fully reckoned with you know,

1105
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 2: when when the Great Britain banned slavery and in their

1106
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,479
Speaker 2: colonies they never really look that deeply into what guys

1107
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 2: like Thistle what are doing. Right, there's kind of this

1108
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: acknowledgment that like, well, that was bad, that was a

1109
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 2: bad system people. It was bad that things were doing that,

1110
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 2: and it's good that we stopped it. Let's focus on

1111
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: the fact that we stopped it, and how nice that is.

1112
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 2: We were faster to stopping it than the Americans. Right,

1113
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: and they did definitely in slavery, faster than the United

1114
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 2: States did. But there's also this level to which there

1115
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 2: was never any kind of organized attempt to grapple with

1116
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 2: the kind of horrors that had been perpetrated, and how

1117
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 2: many British fortunes were based on them, on selling and

1118
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: buying people, on these plantations, on the profits from these plantations,

1119
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: on selling stuff to these people, on running the boats,

1120
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 2: like that's that's never reckoned with Yeah, right, we one so.

1121
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 4: Much of that in the colonial England was like also

1122
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 4: far away from them, like you said, But then in

1123
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 4: America it's like right there, your neighbors are doing it,

1124
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 4: and so that's even wilder that they continued longer in America.

1125
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's ye. And remember just this bad you know,

1126
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 2: like this is not Jamaica. It was not worse than Virginia.

1127
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 2: Like all of this is the similar kinds of maybe

1128
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 2: slightly different tactics and how you psychologically and physically abuse people,

1129
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 2: but not always even that you know a lot of

1130
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:14,959
Speaker 2: the same tactics. Anyway, Jesus Christ, we're done. Sorry, that's

1131
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: the end.

1132
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 3: Okay, well, at least it's over.

1133
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:17,959
Speaker 2: It's over.

1134
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: T you have anything you want to plug?

1135
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 4: No, I feel like I should not plug anything right

1136
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 4: now except for I guess go take a hot bath

1137
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 4: and cry.

1138
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 2: But cry.

1139
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll tell you guys about the show I'm doing before.

1140
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 2: I give birth, because we go there, we go.

1141
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 4: Because it's a new show too, called Second Screens. It's

1142
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 4: for people who uh uh, you know, if you're neuro

1143
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 4: a diversion like me and you don't want to be

1144
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 4: you can be on your phone the whole time. Second

1145
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 4: Screen hosted by Madison Shepherd. Next one is December first. Yeah,

1146
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 4: and you can bring your phone and be on your

1147
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 4: laptop or phone while you're on wile you're watching the show.

1148
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 4: So I'll be on my show and then I'll probably

1149
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 4: not do comedy for a while.

1150
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: Well those are both good choices and I wish you

1151
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 2: the best a.

1152
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: Lot seeing them one last time.

1153
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I hope you take advantage of having

1154
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 2: a baby, because that that'll be fun, that'll be much much,

1155
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 2: that'll be affirming and good. The world's horrible things that

1156
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 2: are good.

1157
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

1158
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1159
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, what a strange way to end this pod. But

1160
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 4: thank you for having me on. You're always a pleatter

1161
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 4: to see you, and you know, take a moment to

1162
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 4: think about all the horrible things humanity is capable of.

1163
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 2: Yes, all right, everybody, Horrible things done.

1164
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1165
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1166
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1167
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1168
00:58:56,240 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes Everyonenesday and Friday.

1169
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 2: Subscribe to our

1170
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: Channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the Bastards.