WEBVTT - Calling Death Row 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.840 Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.720 three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.320 and his thirty years struggle on San Quentin's death throw, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.760 and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.840 a petition on his behalf. Visit Free Jarvis dot org 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.160 slash podcast to sign your name to an open letter 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:26.120 to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:31.640 Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom. 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:43.920 Dear Governor Newsom. As we wind down season two of 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:48.400 Dear Governor, Jarvis Master's federal appeals process is just winding up. 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.440 The law firm Kirkland and Ellis has assembled an ace 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.680 team of attorneys that will guide Jarvis through the post 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.920 appeals process with great expectations that he will after a 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.480 lifetime in prison and celebrate freedom once and for all. 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.000 We at Dear Governor will continue to follow Jarvis and 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.800 his fight for freedom. If you're moved by Jarvis's personal story, 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.160 we encourage you to keep him in your thoughts, to 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.040 pay attention to his developments and engage support system is 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:19.640 critical to a successful transition to the outside if and 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.319 when that day becomes real. Later in the show, Jarvis 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:26.679 answers some of your pressing questions and curiosities. But up 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.399 next Jarvis's lead attorney, a man for whom Jarvis is 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.160 trusting his life and future. My name is Mike Williams. 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.919 I'm a partner at Kirkland and Ellis. I'm a partner 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.560 in the litigation practice, so I'm one of the people 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.000 who tends to go to court to try cases. Typically, 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.080 I represent large corporations to in large corporations, that happens 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.440 more than cases like jarvis Is that involved the death penalty. 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.840 My largest client to date was the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:58.160 So when they were sued by their bond holders and 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.840 creditors and banks and on a line bond insurers during 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:06.280 their financial crisis in twenties seventeen, I represented Puerto Rico 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:08.919 and those proceedings and making sure that these creditors weren't 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.600 allowed to seize property in Puerto Rico and so there 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:15.079 could be this orderly bankruptcy practice. I represent a lot 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.080 of companies in a broad array of different cases, but 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.240 it's mostly commercial litigation with a few exceptions, and some 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.760 of those exceptions are death penalty cases like Jarvis's. There 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.840 was a case that I had handled. I stuck with 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:32.920 this client for about seven years up and through the 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.840 Virginia state and federal courts. His name was Ivon Telugus. 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.919 He was one of the nine people on Virginia's death row. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.960 By the time Governor mccauliffe granted our petition for clemency. 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.360 We've gone through federal proceedings, state proceedings, state proceedings because 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.359 the State of Virginia was actually considering using the electric 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:54.959 chair against him when they couldn't find access to the 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.960 drugs that they needed for the lethal injections. So this 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:01.320 was an example of a case where Van was also 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:05.639 actually innocent. It's very very hard in federal courts to 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:09.440 unwind a state court conviction and state abeous. That's where 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.000 we are with Jarvis now, and I've got to say, 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:13.480 the facts have to be really stark because of the 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.040 deference that the federal courts tend to give to state courts. 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.240 In Ivan's case, even though we stuck with him, it 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.160 took really a courageous move by Governor mccauloff at the 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:26.040 time to say this man's innocent. I'll at least commute 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.200 his death sentence. So that was back in And what 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.320 percentage I mean, you're a global firm, so what percentage 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:35.920 of your cases are like this our pro bono? How 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.720 do you decide which to take? I would assume there 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.120 would be dozens and hundreds of people wanting your representation. 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.680 It's it's that's one of the difficult parts is because 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.760 we're a large law firm, we'd love to take on 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.840 more cases, but just as a as a fact of life, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:54.840 so many of these cases are so difficult, and so 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.240 many of the cases the record is so difficult. In 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.640 many of these cases, the client is difficult to reach 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.360 and differ pope to contact for lots of reasons. It 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.720 also has to be a case where even though it's 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:08.840 very rare for somebody who's on death row to have 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.280 been served well by counsel before it reaches the federal courts, 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.040 there are a lot of cases not this one, where 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:18.440 we found that state council is actually almost an obstacle 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.120 to get in relief. And just to give you an 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:25.039 example there, very recently we had another death penalty case 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.279 in Brazoria County, Texas, on behalf of a fellow who 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.039 was intellectually disabled. And this is this is really the 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.760 story of somebody's worst state corney because James Harris was 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:40.760 intellectually disabled, had drug addiction issues, had a terrible day 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:42.480 where he was locked out of the motel where he 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.599 was living, and he just in a fit of rage, 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.680 he committed acts of violence that he never would have 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:53.120 committed under other circumstances. He had tried to plead innocent, 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.400 plead guilty rather with the d A. The d A 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.400 cut off PLEA negotiations and force him to take the 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.200 case to try ill and he was sent to trial 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.440 in Texas State court without anybody ever raising the defense 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.520 of intellectual disability. An intellectual disability in our system, under 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:13.040 our constitutional system, that's mitigation per se. You're not allowed 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.599 to execute somebody under the Eighth Amendment if they're intellectually disabled. 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.320 Nobody ever raised that defense, and so I used this 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.960 as a case because it was another recent death penalty 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.560 case that we handled. But we got a call from 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.360 the American Bar Association where they said there's a case. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.320 It's going to a hearing in four months. And this 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.560 is before the holidays, so you know, takes us over 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:37.120 Thanksgiving takes us over Christmas. There are very few firms 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.760 like Kirkland and Ellis that have the resources to do 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.640 that anyway. And then it's an even smaller vent diagram 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.479 when you talk about the firms that are willing to 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:46.400 do it, that have the capabilities of doing it in 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.200 terms of experience. So we were really lucky to get 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.000 that case. Just a few months ago in March, we 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.679 got a ruling that vacated recommended that we vacate James's 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.160 death sense, So there was another win. But it still 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:00.400 has to go up to the TECH to his Court 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.040 of Criminal Appeals, which could reverse that. I think we've 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.680 got a good factual record and the Texas Court of 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.000 Criminal Appeals decides these cases at their own pace. But 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:10.880 again that's an example of you know, you asked, how 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.119 do these cases come to Kirkland? A lot of times 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.280 it takes somebody like the A, B, A or somebody 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.440 to say not just this is a good case, but 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.599 also this is the sort of case where Kirkland should 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:24.600 get involved. How did Jarvis come to your um? How 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:28.800 did you learn about him? So we have We're fortunate Kirkland. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.200 We have a great partnership, we have great lawyers who 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:35.480 are associates, not partners. And then we also have lawyers 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:37.960 who are affiliated with Kirkland and Ellis. And one of 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.520 those lawyers who is affiliated with Kirkland and Ellison of 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.839 council position is Larry Marshall, who's one of the foremost 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:48.640 professors on the planet in terms of innocence, sentencing, criminal law, 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.080 criminal justice, I mean a whole host of issues. When 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.960 I start talking about Larry's expertise, it's not to it's 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.120 not even to try to exhaust it, because he's just 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.279 that good of a law professor, and he's just the 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.000 sort of smart person that you want to be lacoll 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:03.839 if you're working at a law firm that reaches tony 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.400 positions like this. And I understand that Larry got a 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:09.840 call not from the A B A, but from Oprah Winfrey. 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.120 And when Oprah asks for assistance from a law firm, 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.560 the law firm pays attention. And so this is it's 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:18.720 a sort of story that Larry would tell better than 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:20.280 I would. But when you get a call that says, 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:23.280 would you please hold for Oprah Winfrey and Brian Stephenson, 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.240 you this this better be good. I better take a 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:31.480 seat Jarvis Masters. I said this to several good friends 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.880 of mine. If I lose with these guys her glean analysis, 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.440 I've never had a chance of winning because this law 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:44.320 firm is very, very good. And my conversations with Larry 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.560 Marshall just gave me the confidence that he knew the 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.880 case and he was going to find the best people 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.120 to you know, represent me. And he's one of the 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:57.360 few lawyers that in my life I totally trusted. So 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.360 it was just a relief. I didn't ever, I didn't 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.400 do anything but just trust in, you know, in my 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.040 innocence to find the right people that represent me. And 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.600 that's what happened. So why do you think they took 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:15.520 on your case because they're a huge international team, global firm. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.920 But that they knew that I was innocent. That's that's 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.120 the bottom line, and that that was the That was 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:25.440 everything that I thought would would determine if they would 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.400 take my case or not. Did they see my innocence 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:33.440 right there? Did they research my innocence right there? And 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.240 when they took on my case, I finally had someone 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:41.400 who would really really believed in me, and I just felt, 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:46.440 you know what, I have the best law firm that 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:50.440 I can be fine in my life and in my situation, 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:52.440 and from there, I just let it go. You know. 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.360 I just give my faith to this law firm to 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.400 do whatever they need to do to get me out 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.719 of here. And what I would do is that he 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:05.880 promised myself that I won't die in here. Uh, you know, 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.719 I'll be able to leave here with a lot of 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:13.000 my sanity in place. What does the team look like 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.200 that you have put together to support Jarvis. We have 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.199 a team that it's a cross offices. It's one of 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.080 the things that I'm happiest about. Because Jarvis's cases bending 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.120 in California, we're able to draw upon some of our 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:30.040 best partners and associates in our Bay area offices. Leading 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.800 the team with me is a lawyer named Erica Williams 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.480 who was in the Obama White House Council's office. She 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.320 was in senior positions in the Securities Exchange Commission. Death 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.439 penalty cases aren't her expertise, but she was also leading 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:46.720 the team with me on James Harris's case in Texas 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.240 that I was just describing. So, Erica is a gifted 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.559 lawyer who has an amazing courtroom presence. She's an amazing 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.800 strategic sense. And she's one of those lawyers who when 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:57.760 I call Eric and I say we've got a case, 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.720 and Marie Marshall said that this is when we should 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.120 take Erica is like one of the first people to say, 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:04.640 of course, I'd get involved. So it's it's good to 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.400 have her involved. But then also just a really talented 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:10.480 team in our In our office in San Francisco, we 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.719 have Ashley little Field and Austin Clark, who are two 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.960 of our up and coming, really talented partners who are 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.440 helping lead the team in the day to day efforts. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.960 They know California courts, they know California law, They've actually 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:25.200 appeared in front of our judge before, so all of 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.600 that is very helpful and leading a team a fairly 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.000 large team of associate lawyers and also legal assistants, and 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.880 all the resources that we have here at Kirkland. All told, 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.120 our team is about i'd say about twenty lawyers, which 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.840 is very large for a Kirkland case. You know, even 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.480 our chemical company cases, you know, we we tend not 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.000 to staff them that large. But here, I mean, it's 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.319 an important case and there are lots of people who 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.199 want to get behind it. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.439 you took him on or you signed on Jarvis just 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.560 prior to the outbreak of COVID. So how has that 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:02.360 impacted your representation of him? You know, it's it's really 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:07.160 made the challenges exponential. And I just talked about a 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.800 case in Missoria County, Texas that was pre COVID, where 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.360 we could, over the course of four months, take that 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.920 team of twenty lawyers or what have you, and spread 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:20.400 out over east southeast Texas and conduct an investigation here. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.080 Because so many of the witnesses are in an institutional setting, 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.840 and because COVID had completely locked us out from those 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:30.200 institutional settings, that's led to real challenges. On the other hand, 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:32.959 and Jarvis's case, one of the things that I think 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.280 is a real advantage for us is that I think 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:41.559 the procedural problems, the constitutional deficiencies, and his state proceedings 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:46.000 are pretty clear from the record below. You know, we 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.600 we we can bring facts to the court, We can 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.440 bring evidence to the court that would help the court 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:52.960 decide these cases in our favor. We can show where 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.880 the state court made errors even involving facts. But there 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.960 are certain principles about not being able to use state 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.960 procedural rules, you know, what can be admitted into evidence 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.760 to create a constitutional violation, and that's what happened in 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.520 Jarvis's case. So, while it's unfortunate we haven't been able 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.319 to spend more time in sam Quentin and speak to 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.080 people there, one of the benefits of Jarvis's cases is 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.680 that it's pretty clear what these constitutional problems are just 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:32.960 based on the face of the record that's there. Will 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.000 you be hiring an investigator to go back and look 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.400 at the facts of the original case, or is this 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:44.280 more specifically about the constitutional issues that dealt with the case? 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.640 And it's it's all the above corny because we are 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.680 you know, we're compiling the facts and we've got people 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.200 that you know, I don't want to talk too much 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.160 about the investigation, but I will say it's both there's 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.040 a factual challenge that I think is pretty important, and 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.360 then there's also, fortunately in Jarvis's cases, there is also 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:03.880 this black letter legal challenge units in James's case, just 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.440 to give you a counterexample. In James's case, we had 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:09.440 to go and we had to speak to his aunt 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.160 to say, tell us when he was growing up, we 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.520 had to go to his high school yearbooks and find 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.360 people who were on his football team and match up 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:19.960 the photos with the captions and say what can you 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.800 tell us about James? And over the course of this investigation, 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:27.200 we found out that James had a niece who is 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:30.800 intellectually disabled and was actually a special Olympian, and nobody 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.199 had ever said, wait, James, you have a niece who 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.520 is a special Olympian who's intellectually disabled, who's close to 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:41.120 you personally. Nobody had ever asked about this before. Of course, 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.640 nobody raised your intellectual disability defense. With Jarvis, the set 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.719 of witnesses is somewhat more cohesive, and it's also a 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:53.400 little bit better explored because he had really good lawyers 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.720 working for him before, you know, lawyers who were trying 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.840 to do the right thing. Yeah, So there's the legal 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:01.480 issues that are based on the actual record that they've created. 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.000 Those legal issues are pretty stark. I mean, when you're 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.840 not willing to listen to testimony because you're just saying, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:08.520 I'm tired of this, I'm gonna hang up the phone, 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.040 I mean, that's probably an unfair caricature, but that's that's 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.280 an example of a legal issue that we can raise 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.240 on the existing record, but the factual investigation is also 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.880 a piece of that. So where do you go from here? 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:21.640 What is the best case scenario? What are kind of 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:23.560 the next steps that we can anticipate, and how can 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:28.480 our listeners support you or or support Jarvis in any way, 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.160 shape or form. Well, so where we go from here? 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.160 We filed our petition, our federal habeas petition, and I 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.880 think that it lays out in I hope, in readable 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:42.320 language for anybody who's not a lawyer. Doesn't you know, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.400 isn't you know? Isn't steeped in what you know Chambers 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:48.440 versus you know what what the Chambers case means, what 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.120 the Brady case means. But I hope that it says 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.840 in in fairly straightforward terms what went wrong at Jarvis's 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.680 earlier proceeding. I think it also makes a good case 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.160 for actual innocence as well. So we've got we filed 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:02.960 our petition. At this point, we're still waiting for the 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.200 state to file its answer. I mean, that's that's how 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.320 this proceeds. As we file our petition, the state files 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.920 its answer, we file what's called the traverse, which is 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.080 just basically an answer to the state's answer that's not 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.200 usually as important. And then from there, one or both 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.840 sides might see this case up either for an evidentiary 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.720 hearing where we put on evidence, or the state might 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.200 move for some rejudgment and say, even based on everything 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.240 that they alleged, we think this is so clear a 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.440 case that you should deny relief. So those are the 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.160 next steps. And because because the state has been so 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.720 slow and filing their answer, we've really got some questions 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:37.560 about what they're going to say. They were supposed to 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.240 file it in July thirty one, and we just received 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.720 an email yesterday asking for another week. Now. I get 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.960 the state has all kinds of resource issues too, but 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.880 it also prompts the question, Corny, if you've got those 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.120 sort of resource issues, why are you fighting this so hard? 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.440 You know, if we've got a man who's got this 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:01.040 even you don't know Jarvis, you've never met him, you 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:06.000 don't know who he is, You've still got this claim 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:10.640 of innocence in California, why are you pushing forward with 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.600 the death penalty here? You know? And I don't want 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.400 to sound flip, and I don't want to sound disrespectful, 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.280 but like, why the blood bust, Like, what in the 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.480 world would make you push so hard to make sure 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.400 that Jarvis, with all of these procedural problems and with 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.200 the showing of actual innocence, why are you fighting to 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:28.920 keep him on death row? And I mean, it's a 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.280 question that I hope gets answered at some point, but 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:32.800 at this point, we just like to see what the 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.600 response is by the State of California. Is there a 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.240 time limit in which they have to answer you? At 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.120 this point, they've extended the time limit, and you know, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:43.880 in federal courts, and with good reason, judges tend to 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:48.600 be very lenient with extensions in cases like this. And typically, 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.800 as somebody who's represented people who are on death row, ordinarily, 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:53.680 when the state asked for an extension, we know we 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.440 can't really oppose it. And for many of my other cases, 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.560 execution was imminent. You know, when the state of recipent extension, 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.680 it's like, well, great, that's another two weeks that we 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.320 don't have to worry about somebody issuing a death war. Sure, 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.320 but since the moratorium zon in California, that's not an issue. 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:12.040 That's right, but the federal judge will well, ordinarily we 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.440 just assume it's very difficult when the state can say 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.000 I've got COVID, I've got a docket. You know, he's 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.800 on death row. But you know, so it's it's very 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.280 hard for us to to oppose an extension by the state. 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.200 It breaks my heart because I mean, his his whole 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.240 the whole state process for the habeas the filing and 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.399 then the oral arguments that was decades before he got 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.919 an answer, and he's just this is just not a 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.280 speedy trial that he's guaranteed by the by the constitution. 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.840 Huh no. And it's it's it's something that it's hard 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.680 because I know every day that Jarvis is on death 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.840 row is another day that an injustice is being committed. 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.080 And yet at the same time, we don't want to 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.640 say to a judge or to any decision maker, please 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.760 hurry up and give us. We don't want a fast 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.919 answer despite all the challenges of remaining on death row 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.600 when you don't belong there. We really want the right answer, 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.199 and so that's what we hope we can convey to 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.840 the judge. Was there anything that that the listeners can 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.159 do to support or follow We have a petition on 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.560 free Jervis dot org that people can go and sign 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:16.320 and it's basically just an open letter to Governor Newsom. 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.600 But is there anything above and beyond that and that 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.159 we can do as a podcast to help, you know, 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.119 I I hope everybody keeps listening. And I hate to 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.040 go on and on about stories like this, but I've 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.440 had death row clients who had been executed. I had 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.199 the first one just during COVID and this was a 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.000 man who was on federal death row and even though 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:41.080 he had a shocking procedural story, he was executed in 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.960 June and the federal death Row in Terra Haut, Indiana. 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:46.719 He died in obscurity. I mean, he was a person 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.760 who had these really significant constitutional claims and I had 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.720 only represented him before the Supreme Court of the United States, 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.080 but he was very well represented by amazing habeas counsel 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:01.280 during federal habeas proceedings, and the Supreme Court doesn't have 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.080 to take a case. And so you know this, this, 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.800 this client of mine was executed, and there were a 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.280 couple of ap stories. You know, the federal government just 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:11.600 executed somebody, and there was his picture and there was 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.439 a video of his mother saying, please don't execute my 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:16.840 son for a crime that he committed when he was nineteen, 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.480 but he basically died in obscurity. So when I started 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.240 by talking about how special a case Jarvis was, a 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.920 big part of it is there's Jarvis, but there's also 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.480 all these people who support Jarvis. And if there's going 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.560 to be a change, whether it's in Jarvis's case or 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.160 whether it's in the application of the death penalty, more generally, 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.000 it's going to come from people who care. So I'd say, 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:40.040 just by virtual the fact that Jarvis has supporters, people 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.359 who would listen to a podcast and pay attention to 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.639 this case, that puts Jarvis in an entirely different category 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:50.800 from of anybody who's on death row, and almost certainly 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.679 from anybody who's got these sort of injustices that have 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.040 been committed in his proceedings. So I see the thing 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:57.560 that you can really do. I know it's not above 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.120 and beyond, but especially for now, it was just stay engaged. 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.600 You know, as a lawyer, I want to win this 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:06.840 case in the courtroom, and so I would never say 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.200 now is the time to start writing letters to the editors. 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.440 That's not my lane, you know. My lane is let's 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.160 put forward the best case that we can let's put 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:14.960 forward a team that can win this case for Jarvis. 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:17.040 I have to say, it's a real shot in the 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:19.320 arm to know that there's somebody who cares and that 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:21.280 we're going to do our best to win. And I'm 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.359 confident that we're going to win. But to know that 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.800 Jarvis has people who care about him, that makes all 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:27.359 the difference in the world in a case like this, 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.159 and that's to his lawyer. I can only imagine with 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.760 me for Jarvis, well, David Cheff, who wrote The Buddhist 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.960 on Death Row, the latest biography, and I have committed 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:40.119 to host a freedom party when you succeed in getting 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.879 him out. So I hope you will be a v 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.239 I P. You will be a v I P at 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.560 our party. Listen, I'll be bartender at your party. I 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:50.320 don't need to be a v I P. And we've 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.639 got a Kirkland team that's so large you can't have 0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:54.560 as all as as V I P. So you know, 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.920 it's it's a hard it's a hard system to beat 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:01.440 in the federal courts. But I think of the cases 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.600 that I've seen and of the clients that I've seen, 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.120