1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: and his thirty years struggle on San Quentin's death throw, 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: a petition on his behalf. Visit Free Jarvis dot org 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: slash podcast to sign your name to an open letter 7 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom. 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: Dear Governor Newsom. As we wind down season two of 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: Dear Governor, Jarvis Master's federal appeals process is just winding up. 11 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: The law firm Kirkland and Ellis has assembled an ace 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: team of attorneys that will guide Jarvis through the post 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: appeals process with great expectations that he will after a 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: lifetime in prison and celebrate freedom once and for all. 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: We at Dear Governor will continue to follow Jarvis and 16 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: his fight for freedom. If you're moved by Jarvis's personal story, 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: we encourage you to keep him in your thoughts, to 18 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: pay attention to his developments and engage support system is 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: critical to a successful transition to the outside if and 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: when that day becomes real. Later in the show, Jarvis 21 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: answers some of your pressing questions and curiosities. But up 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: next Jarvis's lead attorney, a man for whom Jarvis is 23 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: trusting his life and future. My name is Mike Williams. 24 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,919 Speaker 1: I'm a partner at Kirkland and Ellis. I'm a partner 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: in the litigation practice, so I'm one of the people 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: who tends to go to court to try cases. Typically, 27 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: I represent large corporations to in large corporations, that happens 28 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: more than cases like jarvis Is that involved the death penalty. 29 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: My largest client to date was the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: So when they were sued by their bond holders and 31 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: creditors and banks and on a line bond insurers during 32 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: their financial crisis in twenties seventeen, I represented Puerto Rico 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: and those proceedings and making sure that these creditors weren't 34 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: allowed to seize property in Puerto Rico and so there 35 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: could be this orderly bankruptcy practice. I represent a lot 36 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: of companies in a broad array of different cases, but 37 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: it's mostly commercial litigation with a few exceptions, and some 38 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: of those exceptions are death penalty cases like Jarvis's. There 39 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: was a case that I had handled. I stuck with 40 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: this client for about seven years up and through the 41 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: Virginia state and federal courts. His name was Ivon Telugus. 42 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: He was one of the nine people on Virginia's death row. 43 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: By the time Governor mccauliffe granted our petition for clemency. 44 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: We've gone through federal proceedings, state proceedings, state proceedings because 45 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: the State of Virginia was actually considering using the electric 46 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 1: chair against him when they couldn't find access to the 47 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: drugs that they needed for the lethal injections. So this 48 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: was an example of a case where Van was also 49 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: actually innocent. It's very very hard in federal courts to 50 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: unwind a state court conviction and state abeous. That's where 51 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: we are with Jarvis now, and I've got to say, 52 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: the facts have to be really stark because of the 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: deference that the federal courts tend to give to state courts. 54 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: In Ivan's case, even though we stuck with him, it 55 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: took really a courageous move by Governor mccauloff at the 56 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: time to say this man's innocent. I'll at least commute 57 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: his death sentence. So that was back in And what 58 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: percentage I mean, you're a global firm, so what percentage 59 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: of your cases are like this our pro bono? How 60 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: do you decide which to take? I would assume there 61 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: would be dozens and hundreds of people wanting your representation. 62 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: It's it's that's one of the difficult parts is because 63 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: we're a large law firm, we'd love to take on 64 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: more cases, but just as a as a fact of life, 65 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: so many of these cases are so difficult, and so 66 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: many of the cases the record is so difficult. In 67 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: many of these cases, the client is difficult to reach 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: and differ pope to contact for lots of reasons. It 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: also has to be a case where even though it's 70 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: very rare for somebody who's on death row to have 71 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: been served well by counsel before it reaches the federal courts, 72 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: there are a lot of cases not this one, where 73 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: we found that state council is actually almost an obstacle 74 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: to get in relief. And just to give you an 75 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: example there, very recently we had another death penalty case 76 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: in Brazoria County, Texas, on behalf of a fellow who 77 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: was intellectually disabled. And this is this is really the 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: story of somebody's worst state corney because James Harris was 79 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: intellectually disabled, had drug addiction issues, had a terrible day 80 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: where he was locked out of the motel where he 81 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: was living, and he just in a fit of rage, 82 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: he committed acts of violence that he never would have 83 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: committed under other circumstances. He had tried to plead innocent, 84 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: plead guilty rather with the d A. The d A 85 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: cut off PLEA negotiations and force him to take the 86 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: case to try ill and he was sent to trial 87 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: in Texas State court without anybody ever raising the defense 88 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: of intellectual disability. An intellectual disability in our system, under 89 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: our constitutional system, that's mitigation per se. You're not allowed 90 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: to execute somebody under the Eighth Amendment if they're intellectually disabled. 91 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: Nobody ever raised that defense, and so I used this 92 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: as a case because it was another recent death penalty 93 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: case that we handled. But we got a call from 94 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: the American Bar Association where they said there's a case. 95 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: It's going to a hearing in four months. And this 96 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: is before the holidays, so you know, takes us over 97 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving takes us over Christmas. There are very few firms 98 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: like Kirkland and Ellis that have the resources to do 99 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: that anyway. And then it's an even smaller vent diagram 100 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: when you talk about the firms that are willing to 101 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: do it, that have the capabilities of doing it in 102 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: terms of experience. So we were really lucky to get 103 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: that case. Just a few months ago in March, we 104 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,679 Speaker 1: got a ruling that vacated recommended that we vacate James's 105 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: death sense, So there was another win. But it still 106 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: has to go up to the TECH to his Court 107 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: of Criminal Appeals, which could reverse that. I think we've 108 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: got a good factual record and the Texas Court of 109 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: Criminal Appeals decides these cases at their own pace. But 110 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: again that's an example of you know, you asked, how 111 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,119 Speaker 1: do these cases come to Kirkland? A lot of times 112 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 1: it takes somebody like the A, B, A or somebody 113 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: to say not just this is a good case, but 114 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: also this is the sort of case where Kirkland should 115 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: get involved. How did Jarvis come to your um? How 116 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: did you learn about him? So we have We're fortunate Kirkland. 117 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: We have a great partnership, we have great lawyers who 118 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: are associates, not partners. And then we also have lawyers 119 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: who are affiliated with Kirkland and Ellis. And one of 120 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: those lawyers who is affiliated with Kirkland and Ellison of 121 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: council position is Larry Marshall, who's one of the foremost 122 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: professors on the planet in terms of innocence, sentencing, criminal law, 123 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: criminal justice, I mean a whole host of issues. When 124 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: I start talking about Larry's expertise, it's not to it's 125 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: not even to try to exhaust it, because he's just 126 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: that good of a law professor, and he's just the 127 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: sort of smart person that you want to be lacoll 128 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: if you're working at a law firm that reaches tony 129 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: positions like this. And I understand that Larry got a 130 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: call not from the A B A, but from Oprah Winfrey. 131 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: And when Oprah asks for assistance from a law firm, 132 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: the law firm pays attention. And so this is it's 133 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: a sort of story that Larry would tell better than 134 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: I would. But when you get a call that says, 135 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: would you please hold for Oprah Winfrey and Brian Stephenson, 136 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: you this this better be good. I better take a 137 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: seat Jarvis Masters. I said this to several good friends 138 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: of mine. If I lose with these guys her glean analysis, 139 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: I've never had a chance of winning because this law 140 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: firm is very, very good. And my conversations with Larry 141 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: Marshall just gave me the confidence that he knew the 142 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: case and he was going to find the best people 143 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: to you know, represent me. And he's one of the 144 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: few lawyers that in my life I totally trusted. So 145 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: it was just a relief. I didn't ever, I didn't 146 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: do anything but just trust in, you know, in my 147 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 1: innocence to find the right people that represent me. And 148 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: that's what happened. So why do you think they took 149 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: on your case because they're a huge international team, global firm. 150 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: But that they knew that I was innocent. That's that's 151 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: the bottom line, and that that was the That was 152 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: everything that I thought would would determine if they would 153 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: take my case or not. Did they see my innocence 154 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: right there? Did they research my innocence right there? And 155 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: when they took on my case, I finally had someone 156 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: who would really really believed in me, and I just felt, 157 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: you know what, I have the best law firm that 158 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: I can be fine in my life and in my situation, 159 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: and from there, I just let it go. You know. 160 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: I just give my faith to this law firm to 161 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: do whatever they need to do to get me out 162 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,719 Speaker 1: of here. And what I would do is that he 163 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: promised myself that I won't die in here. Uh, you know, 164 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: I'll be able to leave here with a lot of 165 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: my sanity in place. What does the team look like 166 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: that you have put together to support Jarvis. We have 167 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: a team that it's a cross offices. It's one of 168 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: the things that I'm happiest about. Because Jarvis's cases bending 169 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: in California, we're able to draw upon some of our 170 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: best partners and associates in our Bay area offices. Leading 171 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: the team with me is a lawyer named Erica Williams 172 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: who was in the Obama White House Council's office. She 173 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: was in senior positions in the Securities Exchange Commission. Death 174 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: penalty cases aren't her expertise, but she was also leading 175 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: the team with me on James Harris's case in Texas 176 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: that I was just describing. So, Erica is a gifted 177 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: lawyer who has an amazing courtroom presence. She's an amazing 178 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: strategic sense. And she's one of those lawyers who when 179 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: I call Eric and I say we've got a case, 180 00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: and Marie Marshall said that this is when we should 181 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: take Erica is like one of the first people to say, 182 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: of course, I'd get involved. So it's it's good to 183 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: have her involved. But then also just a really talented 184 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: team in our In our office in San Francisco, we 185 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: have Ashley little Field and Austin Clark, who are two 186 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: of our up and coming, really talented partners who are 187 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: helping lead the team in the day to day efforts. 188 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: They know California courts, they know California law, They've actually 189 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: appeared in front of our judge before, so all of 190 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: that is very helpful and leading a team a fairly 191 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: large team of associate lawyers and also legal assistants, and 192 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: all the resources that we have here at Kirkland. All told, 193 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: our team is about i'd say about twenty lawyers, which 194 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: is very large for a Kirkland case. You know, even 195 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: our chemical company cases, you know, we we tend not 196 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: to staff them that large. But here, I mean, it's 197 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: an important case and there are lots of people who 198 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: want to get behind it. Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine 199 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: you took him on or you signed on Jarvis just 200 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: prior to the outbreak of COVID. So how has that 201 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: impacted your representation of him? You know, it's it's really 202 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: made the challenges exponential. And I just talked about a 203 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: case in Missoria County, Texas that was pre COVID, where 204 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: we could, over the course of four months, take that 205 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: team of twenty lawyers or what have you, and spread 206 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: out over east southeast Texas and conduct an investigation here. 207 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: Because so many of the witnesses are in an institutional setting, 208 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: and because COVID had completely locked us out from those 209 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: institutional settings, that's led to real challenges. On the other hand, 210 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: and Jarvis's case, one of the things that I think 211 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: is a real advantage for us is that I think 212 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: the procedural problems, the constitutional deficiencies, and his state proceedings 213 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: are pretty clear from the record below. You know, we 214 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: we we can bring facts to the court, We can 215 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: bring evidence to the court that would help the court 216 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: decide these cases in our favor. We can show where 217 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the state court made errors even involving facts. But there 218 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: are certain principles about not being able to use state 219 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: procedural rules, you know, what can be admitted into evidence 220 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: to create a constitutional violation, and that's what happened in 221 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: Jarvis's case. So, while it's unfortunate we haven't been able 222 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 1: to spend more time in sam Quentin and speak to 223 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: people there, one of the benefits of Jarvis's cases is 224 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: that it's pretty clear what these constitutional problems are just 225 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: based on the face of the record that's there. Will 226 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: you be hiring an investigator to go back and look 227 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: at the facts of the original case, or is this 228 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: more specifically about the constitutional issues that dealt with the case? 229 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: And it's it's all the above corny because we are 230 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: you know, we're compiling the facts and we've got people 231 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: that you know, I don't want to talk too much 232 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: about the investigation, but I will say it's both there's 233 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: a factual challenge that I think is pretty important, and 234 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: then there's also, fortunately in Jarvis's cases, there is also 235 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: this black letter legal challenge units in James's case, just 236 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: to give you a counterexample. In James's case, we had 237 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: to go and we had to speak to his aunt 238 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: to say, tell us when he was growing up, we 239 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: had to go to his high school yearbooks and find 240 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: people who were on his football team and match up 241 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: the photos with the captions and say what can you 242 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: tell us about James? And over the course of this investigation, 243 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: we found out that James had a niece who is 244 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: intellectually disabled and was actually a special Olympian, and nobody 245 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: had ever said, wait, James, you have a niece who 246 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: is a special Olympian who's intellectually disabled, who's close to 247 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: you personally. Nobody had ever asked about this before. Of course, 248 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: nobody raised your intellectual disability defense. With Jarvis, the set 249 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,719 Speaker 1: of witnesses is somewhat more cohesive, and it's also a 250 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: little bit better explored because he had really good lawyers 251 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: working for him before, you know, lawyers who were trying 252 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: to do the right thing. Yeah, So there's the legal 253 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: issues that are based on the actual record that they've created. 254 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: Those legal issues are pretty stark. I mean, when you're 255 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: not willing to listen to testimony because you're just saying, 256 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: I'm tired of this, I'm gonna hang up the phone, 257 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's probably an unfair caricature, but that's that's 258 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: an example of a legal issue that we can raise 259 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: on the existing record, but the factual investigation is also 260 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: a piece of that. So where do you go from here? 261 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: What is the best case scenario? What are kind of 262 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: the next steps that we can anticipate, and how can 263 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: our listeners support you or or support Jarvis in any way, 264 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: shape or form. Well, so where we go from here? 265 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: We filed our petition, our federal habeas petition, and I 266 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: think that it lays out in I hope, in readable 267 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: language for anybody who's not a lawyer. Doesn't you know, 268 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: isn't you know? Isn't steeped in what you know Chambers 269 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: versus you know what what the Chambers case means, what 270 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: the Brady case means. But I hope that it says 271 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: in in fairly straightforward terms what went wrong at Jarvis's 272 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: earlier proceeding. I think it also makes a good case 273 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: for actual innocence as well. So we've got we filed 274 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: our petition. At this point, we're still waiting for the 275 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: state to file its answer. I mean, that's that's how 276 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: this proceeds. As we file our petition, the state files 277 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: its answer, we file what's called the traverse, which is 278 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: just basically an answer to the state's answer that's not 279 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: usually as important. And then from there, one or both 280 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: sides might see this case up either for an evidentiary 281 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: hearing where we put on evidence, or the state might 282 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: move for some rejudgment and say, even based on everything 283 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: that they alleged, we think this is so clear a 284 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: case that you should deny relief. So those are the 285 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: next steps. And because because the state has been so 286 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: slow and filing their answer, we've really got some questions 287 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: about what they're going to say. They were supposed to 288 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: file it in July thirty one, and we just received 289 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: an email yesterday asking for another week. Now. I get 290 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: the state has all kinds of resource issues too, but 291 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: it also prompts the question, Corny, if you've got those 292 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: sort of resource issues, why are you fighting this so hard? 293 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: You know, if we've got a man who's got this 294 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: even you don't know Jarvis, you've never met him, you 295 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: don't know who he is, You've still got this claim 296 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: of innocence in California, why are you pushing forward with 297 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: the death penalty here? You know? And I don't want 298 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: to sound flip, and I don't want to sound disrespectful, 299 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: but like, why the blood bust, Like, what in the 300 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: world would make you push so hard to make sure 301 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: that Jarvis, with all of these procedural problems and with 302 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: the showing of actual innocence, why are you fighting to 303 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: keep him on death row? And I mean, it's a 304 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: question that I hope gets answered at some point, but 305 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: at this point, we just like to see what the 306 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: response is by the State of California. Is there a 307 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: time limit in which they have to answer you? At 308 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: this point, they've extended the time limit, and you know, 309 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: in federal courts, and with good reason, judges tend to 310 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: be very lenient with extensions in cases like this. And typically, 311 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: as somebody who's represented people who are on death row, ordinarily, 312 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: when the state asked for an extension, we know we 313 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: can't really oppose it. And for many of my other cases, 314 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: execution was imminent. You know, when the state of recipent extension, 315 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: it's like, well, great, that's another two weeks that we 316 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about somebody issuing a death war. Sure, 317 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: but since the moratorium zon in California, that's not an issue. 318 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: That's right, but the federal judge will well, ordinarily we 319 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: just assume it's very difficult when the state can say 320 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: I've got COVID, I've got a docket. You know, he's 321 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: on death row. But you know, so it's it's very 322 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: hard for us to to oppose an extension by the state. 323 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: It breaks my heart because I mean, his his whole 324 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: the whole state process for the habeas the filing and 325 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: then the oral arguments that was decades before he got 326 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: an answer, and he's just this is just not a 327 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: speedy trial that he's guaranteed by the by the constitution. 328 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: Huh no. And it's it's it's something that it's hard 329 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: because I know every day that Jarvis is on death 330 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: row is another day that an injustice is being committed. 331 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: And yet at the same time, we don't want to 332 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,640 Speaker 1: say to a judge or to any decision maker, please 333 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: hurry up and give us. We don't want a fast 334 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: answer despite all the challenges of remaining on death row 335 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: when you don't belong there. We really want the right answer, 336 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: and so that's what we hope we can convey to 337 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: the judge. Was there anything that that the listeners can 338 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 1: do to support or follow We have a petition on 339 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: free Jervis dot org that people can go and sign 340 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: and it's basically just an open letter to Governor Newsom. 341 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: But is there anything above and beyond that and that 342 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,159 Speaker 1: we can do as a podcast to help, you know, 343 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: I I hope everybody keeps listening. And I hate to 344 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: go on and on about stories like this, but I've 345 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: had death row clients who had been executed. I had 346 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: the first one just during COVID and this was a 347 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: man who was on federal death row and even though 348 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: he had a shocking procedural story, he was executed in 349 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: June and the federal death Row in Terra Haut, Indiana. 350 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,719 Speaker 1: He died in obscurity. I mean, he was a person 351 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: who had these really significant constitutional claims and I had 352 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: only represented him before the Supreme Court of the United States, 353 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: but he was very well represented by amazing habeas counsel 354 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: during federal habeas proceedings, and the Supreme Court doesn't have 355 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: to take a case. And so you know this, this, 356 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: this client of mine was executed, and there were a 357 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: couple of ap stories. You know, the federal government just 358 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: executed somebody, and there was his picture and there was 359 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: a video of his mother saying, please don't execute my 360 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: son for a crime that he committed when he was nineteen, 361 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: but he basically died in obscurity. So when I started 362 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: by talking about how special a case Jarvis was, a 363 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: big part of it is there's Jarvis, but there's also 364 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: all these people who support Jarvis. And if there's going 365 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: to be a change, whether it's in Jarvis's case or 366 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: whether it's in the application of the death penalty, more generally, 367 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: it's going to come from people who care. So I'd say, 368 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: just by virtual the fact that Jarvis has supporters, people 369 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: who would listen to a podcast and pay attention to 370 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: this case, that puts Jarvis in an entirely different category 371 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: from of anybody who's on death row, and almost certainly 372 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: from anybody who's got these sort of injustices that have 373 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: been committed in his proceedings. So I see the thing 374 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: that you can really do. I know it's not above 375 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: and beyond, but especially for now, it was just stay engaged. 376 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: You know, as a lawyer, I want to win this 377 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: case in the courtroom, and so I would never say 378 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: now is the time to start writing letters to the editors. 379 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: That's not my lane, you know. My lane is let's 380 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: put forward the best case that we can let's put 381 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: forward a team that can win this case for Jarvis. 382 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: I have to say, it's a real shot in the 383 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: arm to know that there's somebody who cares and that 384 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: we're going to do our best to win. And I'm 385 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: confident that we're going to win. But to know that 386 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: Jarvis has people who care about him, that makes all 387 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: the difference in the world in a case like this, 388 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: and that's to his lawyer. I can only imagine with 389 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: me for Jarvis, well, David Cheff, who wrote The Buddhist 390 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: on Death Row, the latest biography, and I have committed 391 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 1: to host a freedom party when you succeed in getting 392 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: him out. So I hope you will be a v 393 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,239 Speaker 1: I P. You will be a v I P at 394 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: our party. Listen, I'll be bartender at your party. I 395 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: don't need to be a v I P. And we've 396 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: got a Kirkland team that's so large you can't have 397 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: as all as as V I P. So you know, 398 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: it's it's a hard it's a hard system to beat 399 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: in the federal courts. But I think of the cases 400 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: that I've seen and of the clients that I've seen, 401 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one that the federal courts really 402 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: should make right. So I always get very nervous when 403 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: I talk about pending cases, and especially pending cases like 404 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: this where I don't even know what the state's going 405 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: to say yet. But I will say, I mean, just 406 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: knowing Jarvis and knowing the facts and knowing the law, 407 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: there's a reason why Kirkland took this on, and there's 408 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: a reason why people support Jarvis, and it's because this 409 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: is the sort of case that should send a message 410 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: to the system that things go wrong. Well Amen, Amen, 411 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: good Corny, and thanks for everything you do. I mean, 412 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: I know I keep saying this, but it really does 413 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: make all the difference in the world. I mean, it's 414 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: it's just terrible. I can say from from Christopher's case, 415 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: which is the client I'm talking about, to you know, 416 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: pour your heart and soul into pleadings and and and 417 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: convincing yourself and then trying to convince the court and 418 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: saying this shouldn't happen, and then the Supreme Court denies 419 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: review and he's executed, and it's like, did this even 420 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: make a difference at all? The effort? You know, I 421 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: had a team on that one too, And did this 422 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 1: make a difference? And here, it's like knowing that Jarvis 423 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: has people who care, who are watching, and who are 424 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: speaking to him. That really makes a difference, not just 425 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: for Jarvis's case, but for all of this. Absolutely, thanks 426 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: for everything you do. Point Thank you to Absolutely and U. 427 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: I'll be waiting for your firetending skills. Thanks to take care. 428 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: Okay by My name is Tyler from Atlanta, Georgia, and 429 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask Jarvis. After all the complicated legal 430 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: battles and issues around people not believing that your innocence, 431 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: what thought brings you peace? What do you think of 432 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: you when you want to find peace with the world 433 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: that seems so frustratingly cool and unjust meditation? I think 434 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 1: the ability to sit down with both the good and 435 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: bad does a lot to help me find that interfeace. 436 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: I think there's always have to be something good about 437 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: the worst things that are bad. And I definitely felt 438 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: that when when COVID hit sand Quick, Where do I 439 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: find my piece? You know? And my piece was to 440 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: let it go through me? What does that mean? Let 441 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: go through you? Knowing that I knew that this was 442 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: something that I couldn't fight, This was something that they 443 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: were not going to medicate me to keep me from 444 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: catching it. I had assessed that San Quentin didn't know 445 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: what to do. I didn't panic. I just said, you know, 446 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let this, whatever it does, go through me, 447 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: COVID go through me. I was not going to try 448 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: to fight it, you know, I was just gonna let 449 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: let my Buddhist practice give me an idea was the 450 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: best way I can deal with this. That you have 451 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: a place in your brain that you go, Like for 452 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: me sometimes it's when I'm stressed out or whatever, Like 453 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: I'll go to like the beach in my brain, you know, 454 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: visit a peaceful place. Do you have any place you 455 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: go or is it just a mantra? This is what 456 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: I'm doing. I just noticed it's not long ago. Whenever 457 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: I feel really bad about something, really depressed, and I 458 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: don't think meditation is gonna who's going to address the issue. 459 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: And I think that's what the question was really asked 460 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: of me. I create good conversations with people, you know, 461 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: I really do. I create good conversations. I'll bring up 462 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: something that would just put everybody involved in the conversation, 463 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: whether it's a football game or something, and we're all 464 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: talking about this you know, and it can go on 465 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: for an hour or two hours, you know, and somewhere 466 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: in between these conversations, I just looms that that thing 467 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: about feeling really really you know, depressed, are set at them, 468 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: you know or something. So that's where I really go to. 469 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: I've noticed myself doing that a lot. Can you talk 470 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: to the guys like through yourself? Is that how you 471 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: communicate with them? Yeah, I'm sitting at my cell door 472 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: and I will throw something out there and we talked 473 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: about it, you know, and it maybe ten fifteen people 474 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: involved in conversation, maybe even more, but we're talking over 475 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: each other, but we can hear each other. We have 476 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: that ability to do that. You know, sometimes when you 477 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: hear the noise, you think everyone's making noisely everyone's really 478 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: talking to each other, and they can not the noise 479 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: and not even pay attention to them. You know, that 480 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: someone else's noise, not my noise. After editude, I visioned it. 481 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: I envisioned someone getting real frustrated. And what they do 482 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: is they call a friend, someone of best friends, someone 483 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: who they don't have to worry about using the correct 484 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: speak each our words to get across what they feel 485 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: most frustrated about m h. We do that here, I 486 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: know I do that. There's people that I talked to 487 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: like that. You know. I would say, hey man, let 488 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: me bounce this off the wall and tell me what 489 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: you think about this, you know, and I would get 490 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: their advice. And most times I get the advice that 491 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: I'm not looking for. But it's good to think about. 492 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: There's certain guys that just weigh in when you do 493 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: want them to. Yeah, but that would be my purpose 494 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: to everyone jump into this. Please give my my mouth 495 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: some stuff from going through. You jump in, man, you know, 496 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 1: just just you know, yeah, hey man, more noise you 497 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: make the better this is gonna feel, you know. I 498 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: think it helps for everybody. I think everyone has someone 499 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: they call when you know, when the workplace is not 500 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: doing treating him well, or when you know there's spouse 501 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: problems or whatever. You know, there's someone that we always called, 502 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: you know, um, And that's the same way here. You know. 503 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm grateful that I can bounce things off of certain people. 504 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: And I really really think Tyler Tyler for his call. 505 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: I thought it was a good question. And often I 506 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: get that question about how do I find some measure 507 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: of peace and all this chaoffs, you know, and all 508 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: this other stuff, and it's a constant practice and kind 509 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: of made a really really great question. Hi. My name 510 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: is Sophia. I grew up Catholic, and within my religious 511 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: organization and affiliation, we have always been taught to be 512 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: pro life. Presently, I have never made my own opinion 513 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: on whether I'm against or for the death penalty. But 514 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: I was really moved by something Jarvis had said, and 515 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: he said, um, I have technology, the fact that I 516 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: have her people, and I was really moved by that 517 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: that he was, I guess, taking accountability for whatever he 518 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: has done. I have been researching Jervis's case and I 519 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: find it very shocking that Jarvis ended up on death row. 520 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: I see that there's so many questions of jarvis case, 521 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: especially fact that he might not have participated in the 522 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 1: direct murder of a cop. How is it that we 523 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: could can compare Jarvis's conviction to that of a serial killer? 524 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: How does it feel to be put on death row 525 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: with other people that have committed probably even more hain 526 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: his crimes and at the end of the day, they 527 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: are being given the same punishment despite having a completely 528 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: different crime. So that's my question. I think, Um, I 529 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: think sometimes when you're forced live with people, you're forced 530 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: to live with people. But you know, for me, I 531 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: found it very interesting to just look at people, you 532 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: know and see, wow, you know, there's Scott Peterson, there's this, 533 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: and there's that, you know, and then I look for 534 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: the differences than me. For me, you know, what is 535 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: the difference between this person and this person and a 536 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that they're on death row for 537 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: you tend to see, you know, it's very Remember I 538 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: wrote a story about the guy, me and this guy 539 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: playing chess, you know, and he always would try to 540 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: trap me and but not just win the game, just 541 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: trapped me in a corner. Um. Now that you know, 542 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: I meet people like you know, you know, these serial killers. 543 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: I I'm so glad in all honesty that I'm not there. 544 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: You know, that's where I walk away from. You know, Wow, 545 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm so glad I'm not there. You know, we're both 546 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: on death road. But I don't know what is in 547 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: his mind, you know, what's what's going on with him? 548 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: You know. Me, I'm trying to write a book. Me, 549 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,479 Speaker 1: I'm trying to do this and it doesn't make me 550 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: better or worse. I don't look at it that way. 551 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: It's just, wow, my sanity is something that really really 552 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: need to protect, you know, in many ways, I'm very 553 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: very scared about, you know, this place turning to me crazy. 554 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: And if anything scares me more than is being uh, 555 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: it was in my mind. You know, I'm so scared 556 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: to lose my mind. And after so many years, you 557 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: can't to believe that, you know, it might just happen. 558 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: What do you think kept seeing all this time? That 559 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: is a question that that's like a corn I don't know. 560 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. I know it's people 561 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: like you. Is the support I have on the outside, 562 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: is constantly being a communication with friends. But you know, 563 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: this book is still hard to cell, is still small. 564 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: I can stand up and touch the ceiling, you know. 565 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: I can put my arms out and touch both walls. 566 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: And I see a bar that gets locked beyond the 567 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: locked door that cannot be opened unless the world have 568 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: the keys. So I think, how you know? But to 569 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: your question, I don't know what it is. I used 570 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: to say I'm crazy, because I'm not crazy. One thing 571 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: I do know, and I think this goes really to 572 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: the heart of her question is that a lot of 573 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: people on death row, they're sick. And if there were 574 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: more hospitals, if mental hospitals would still be, you know, 575 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: as they used to be, you know, many of them, 576 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: a lot of these guys would not be on death row, 577 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: they would be at the hospitals, there would be mental hospitals. So, 578 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I look at him and I just 579 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: noticed it. You know, their minds a just shot out. 580 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: But you know, I get along with mostly everybody. You know, 581 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm just socially that way. You know, I'm wired up 582 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: that way. You know, I can get in the conversation 583 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: with somebody I think is totally out of his mind. 584 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: But I just stayed there for two hours and talk 585 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 1: to him. And I know that some of these people 586 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 1: and I know they're sit I know they're tormented. It's 587 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: the fact. This episode was written and produced by Donni 588 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: Fazzari and myself, Corny Cole. Our theme song sentenced is 589 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: compliments of the band Stick Figure from their album Set 590 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: in Stone. Stu Sternbach composed the original music. Nate Deft 591 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: did the sound design. For more information on Jarvis and 592 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: to find out how you can follow his case and 593 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: support his cause, please visit free Jarvis dot org For 594 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: more podcasts. For my heart Radio, visit the I Heart 595 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 596 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: favorite shows. In your mind, the first night that you're out, 597 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: where you're stay, have you imagined that I'll probably stay 598 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: outside outside? Yeah? Why? Because I haven't seen the dark 599 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: outside these buildings for thirty forty years, maybe one time. 600 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: So I want to stay outside in a tent. I 601 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: don't know. I just want to be outside. Yeah, is 602 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: that that simple? I just want to be outside where 603 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: I am. I want to be outside. You have sixty 604 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: seconds remaining? Wow, there something wrong with that? Not at all, 605 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: not at all. I guess it's just something that that 606 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 1: I take for granted on the outside, and the fact 607 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: that that's the first place you'd want to be. I 608 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: would imagine shelter, But you want anything but shelter, right. 609 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,839 Speaker 1: I don't want to be in no once. I don't 610 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: want to be inside anything but outside. Yes, that's the fact.