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Speaker 1: What are the real factors that shape the next pope

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Speaker 1: and the selection of the pope? The Conclave Crew has answers.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us. Welcome to an Arroyo Grande brand news series,

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Speaker 1: The Conclave Crew Vatican Edition. We're all here in Rome.

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Speaker 1: We're going to answer your questions. Let's convene the crew.

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Speaker 1: Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York,

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Speaker 1: and Robert Royal, editor in chief of the Catholic Thing

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Speaker 1: dot org, and I'm Mariam ad Arroyo. This is the

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Speaker 1: first in an Arroyo Grande series. Go subscribe to the

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Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify of course on

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Speaker 1: YouTube at a Royo Grande Show and turn on those notifications.

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Speaker 1: We don't want you to miss an episode of this.

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Speaker 1: Each episode will bring you the latest from the Conclave.

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Speaker 1: And I think you're going to be impressed by what

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Speaker 1: you hear. These gentlemen and I have been covering this

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Speaker 1: literally for decades, and you'll hear insights and I think

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Speaker 1: elements of this conclave in what shapes it you may

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Speaker 1: never have considered before. As the cardinals said about the

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Speaker 1: business of selecting the new Pope, where is the church now.

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Speaker 1: Every pope leaves unfinished business. Let's talk for a moment, Jens,

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Speaker 1: I mean John Paul was an apostle who traveled the

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Speaker 1: whole world. He wasn't much of an administrator. How will

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Speaker 1: Francis's papacy, his record shape the man we're about to

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Speaker 1: watch be elected Pope, Bob will start with you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I hope it would, at least at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: cause the cardinals who are about to elect this man

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Speaker 2: to reflect very carefully about their most recent choice. Because

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Speaker 2: we obviously, with the Pope Benedict, we got a theologian,

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Speaker 2: I mean a world class theologian who will be read

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Speaker 2: for centuries. With Francis, what the cardinals thought they were

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Speaker 2: getting was a reformer. That was the term that was

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Speaker 2: often used about him, and in fact, the first biography

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Speaker 2: by Austin Ivory was called The Great Reformer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we still have with.

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Speaker 2: Us a lot of unfinished business and financial matters, the

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Speaker 2: matters of sexual abuse and order within the church. So

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Speaker 2: if you think about what the next leader of the

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Speaker 2: church ought to be, of course he ought to be

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Speaker 2: a spiritual man, a follower, a close follower of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: But somebody who can carry out those other functions that

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Speaker 2: are sort of governing functions. They're not just theological and

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Speaker 2: spiritual matters. The church is badly in need of a

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Speaker 2: rudder right now, and it needs one that is conceptual,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's one that's also practical.

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Speaker 1: Father Bob touched on it. I remember those years ago

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Speaker 1: when twelve years ago, when Pope Francis was elected, and

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Speaker 1: even Cardinal George Pell and others said, this is going

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Speaker 1: to be a financial reformer. He'll bring an end to

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Speaker 1: the sexual abuse in the church. He'll reform the couria,

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Speaker 1: the bureaucracy of the government. Here has he achieved those things,

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Speaker 1: Let's start there.

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Speaker 4: He did some things to effect change, but in the

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Speaker 4: end nothing really happened in terms of and improvement. He

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Speaker 4: appointed Cardinal Pell to be in charge of the Secretariat

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Speaker 4: of the Economy as it's called. It was a new

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Speaker 4: department in the Vatican, and they on earthed and found

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Speaker 4: many assets money that was being held by individual departments

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Speaker 4: in the Vatican, which is the way they used to

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Speaker 4: do it. Cardinal Pell wanted to centralize everything. He wanted

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Speaker 4: to centralize investments so that they could make money on

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Speaker 4: this He also wanted to reform how Vatican assets such

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Speaker 4: as rental properties were dealt with, and stepped on a

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Speaker 4: lot of toes, and the Pope didn't back pell, so

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Speaker 4: that all went to the wayside.

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Speaker 5: Sex abuse.

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Speaker 4: The Pope said zero tolerance, but then notoriously tolerated Bishop Zanketta,

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Speaker 4: who was convicted by an Argentine court of abusing seminarians.

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Speaker 4: He protected Father Rupnik, who was thrown out of the Jesuits,

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Speaker 4: and he's been accused by many many nuns of having

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Speaker 4: committed sexual abuse in his capacity as their spiritual director.

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Speaker 4: So there are lots ofdictions. He did issue a reform

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Speaker 4: of the Roman Curia, but in my opinion, made it

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Speaker 4: more bureaucratic and less gospel or reflective. So I think

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Speaker 4: it's an unfinished agenda, but it remains very much an

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Speaker 4: agenda needing to be done.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that again this episode sort of

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Speaker 1: focused on the factors that will shape the choice of

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Speaker 1: the next pope. How much of that do you think

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Speaker 1: will factor in the finances? The sex abuse and the

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Speaker 1: bureaucracy that is really well. Our colleague get Pentent told

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Speaker 1: us today he ran into somebody's vaticant employee. He said,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel with Pope France has gone? And

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Speaker 1: the man told him free, I feel free. That tells

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Speaker 1: us a lot, Bob. How much will all that play

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Speaker 1: in the minds of these electors.

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Speaker 2: Well, we could hope that it will play a lot

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Speaker 2: in their minds, But as we've said in other places

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Speaker 2: during the course of covering this papacy, it's not clear

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Speaker 2: that the cardinals who are going to have to make

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Speaker 2: the decision or as aware of the the challenges facing

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Speaker 2: the church as say people like us are who follow

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Speaker 2: it on a regular basis. Now they can't help but

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Speaker 2: be aware of the financial problem because that's been announced

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Speaker 2: that you know, it has a huge, huge deficit in

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Speaker 2: terms of the retirement funds for the Vatican employees.

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Speaker 3: The Peters pencils is very much down.

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Speaker 2: You can see that they're trying to use every possibility

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Speaker 2: during this jubilee year of collecting six zeros here, seven

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Speaker 2: yuros there, because it's just the operating fund is also

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Speaker 2: very far down, and.

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Speaker 1: They were all briefed on this the other day in

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Speaker 1: their private meeting. We should tell people.

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Speaker 2: Now, you know, I think that you know, a reasonably

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Speaker 2: responsible human being is going to take that very seriously,

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Speaker 2: because that the Vatican is not able to operate, all

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Speaker 2: the other things start to be put in jeopardy. The

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Speaker 2: business with the cleaning up of the sexual matters. I

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Speaker 2: don't know how much they know about that. Maybe they

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Speaker 2: think that the documents themselves have all this. But there's

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Speaker 2: a lot to be done on a practical nature. As

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Speaker 2: I said earlier, that the next the next pope is

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Speaker 2: really going to have to implement a zero tolerance. We

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Speaker 2: heard a lot about zero tolerance, but in fact there

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Speaker 2: are special deals. There's kind of what people call in

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Speaker 2: the secular world two tiered policing. People at the lower

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Speaker 2: level are are slapped with fines and with with penalties,

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Speaker 2: and then people like Rupnik, who's a famous artist, Father

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Speaker 2: Marco Rupnik goes on as merry way. So look, there's

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Speaker 2: much to be done here, and let's hope that these

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Speaker 2: people look very very closely at those questions.

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Speaker 1: Father, your thoughts on this, How how large will these

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Speaker 1: issues loom in the minds of these cardinals? What we're

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Speaker 1: hearing this week. You know, we spoke to Cardinal Muller,

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Speaker 1: We've spoken to others. There seems to be a sentimentality

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Speaker 1: almost in these in these meetings where they keep harkening

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Speaker 1: back to some imagined synodal fantasy land that that Pope

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Speaker 1: Frances envisioned or was about to implement. Speak to all

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Speaker 1: of that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think the Bob is right. These things

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Speaker 4: are important, and they would seem to indicate we need

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Speaker 4: a pope who has some managerial experience, but even more

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Speaker 4: than that, who has a backbone and is able to

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Speaker 4: make decisions. I know a lot of smart people who

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Speaker 4: can analyze a problem, but if you told them time

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Speaker 4: to solve it, they would run out of the room

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Speaker 4: and they say, that's not my job. I'm here just

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Speaker 4: to observe. Now, we need somebody who's not an observer

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Speaker 4: on what's happening in the Vatican. In the church and

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Speaker 4: the other hand, the job description of the pope is

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Speaker 4: not primarily management. It's primarily preaching the Gospel and guiding

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Speaker 4: the flock. So you know, guiding the flock means governing.

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Speaker 4: It means using the pastoral staff to guide the flock

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Speaker 4: to go to this pasture and avoid that rocky ground.

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Speaker 4: So that means teaching the truth and enforcing the doctrinal

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Speaker 4: limitations in the church. You know, part of the problem

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Speaker 4: and this pontificate is that people who contradicted the teaching

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Speaker 4: of the Church were put forward the way you just

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Speaker 4: for instance, a naval ship has not simply just put

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Speaker 4: an exos set missile through the side of it. It's

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Speaker 4: to have the crew abandon ship by not knowing what

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Speaker 4: their jobs are, not wanting to do them. And I

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Speaker 4: think the same thing applies in the Church. We have

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Speaker 4: to reinstall confidence in the Church's mission.

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Speaker 1: Well look in the coming days. And part of the

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Speaker 1: reason I wanted to do this series is because I

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Speaker 1: want people to have a realistic vision of what's actually

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Speaker 1: happening here in Rome. And many people think, well, it's

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Speaker 1: the conclave, that's when everything happens. They go into the

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Speaker 1: Sistine Chapel, they're locked away, and there'll be time for that.

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Speaker 1: But we know the real business of this conclave, choosing

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Speaker 1: a pope, has already begun. And that's during these general

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Speaker 1: Congregation meetings, when these cardinals come together one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty three electors gathered here. Bob speak to how well

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Speaker 1: these men know each other and how their ignorance of

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Speaker 1: one another, as well as their ignorance of the diocese

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Speaker 1: is that these men have control over or dominion over

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Speaker 1: how that will influence the ultimate selection here.

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Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people are worried that because

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Speaker 2: Pope Francis appointed so many of the electors that is

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Speaker 2: going to be following directly in his line, and of

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Speaker 2: course some other people that he appointed are very very

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Speaker 2: close to what he tried to do with his papacy.

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Speaker 2: The other is the ones that we talk about coming

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Speaker 2: from the peripheries. They're much more of a wild card.

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Speaker 2: If you're from you're a cardinal in Mongolia where there

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Speaker 2: are five thousand Catholics and you just got appointed because

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Speaker 2: the Holy Father happened to see you last week and

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Speaker 2: he liked he or you're from Tonga, you're from one

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Speaker 2: of these other small countries. That really changes things in

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Speaker 2: the way that you don't really know the other people.

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Speaker 2: You haven't been involved in working at the level with

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Speaker 2: other cardinals on stuff within the church or maybe international

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Speaker 2: affairs or political matters.

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Speaker 3: So they've got to get to know one another in these.

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Speaker 2: Basically seven days, ten days to whatever it is between

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Speaker 2: now and the time they have to start voting, and

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Speaker 2: that's really not the best circumstances in which to get

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Speaker 2: to know somebody, because everybody is sort of eyeing one another.

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Speaker 2: It's like a pressure cooker. I mean, the spirit involves

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Speaker 2: itself in these decisions, but you really, very quickly have

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Speaker 2: to kind of get a sense of who it is

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Speaker 2: around me, who looks popular, and you know what kind

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Speaker 2: of things are they pushing? You know, how can I

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Speaker 2: rely on them to deliver on the things that they're

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Speaker 2: saying that they're going to do. To do this in

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Speaker 2: just a matter of a few days or even a

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Speaker 2: week or so, it's not the best circumstances, but let's

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Speaker 2: just hope that the process goes as well as it

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Speaker 2: possibly can given what it's been built up to over

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Speaker 2: the last dozen years.

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Speaker 1: And Father, I'll ask you to expand on that. And

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Speaker 1: over the last few years, really decades, we've seen these conclaves.

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Speaker 1: The business really happens in small dinners, gatherings in all

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Speaker 1: the little borgos around the Vatican and all over Rome,

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Speaker 1: where these cardinals meet each other around the table or

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Speaker 1: in an intimate setting, and we're talking five or six

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Speaker 1: of them, and that's where you really get an exchange

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Speaker 1: of ideas and alliances start to shift. Speak to that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, everybody in life knows.

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Speaker 4: Work is important, but socializing is very important, you know

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Speaker 4: what I mean. Another, it's one thing that's going to

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Speaker 4: the boss's office and the boss that hear your task,

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Speaker 4: go away and then go to the lunch room or

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Speaker 4: the water cool and say, well, how does this place

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Speaker 4: operate and what am I supposed to do? And I

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Speaker 4: think a lot of the College of Cardinals, you know,

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Speaker 4: Number one, they saw the Pope rarely because they were

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Speaker 4: rarely called to Rome. And then secondly they then don't

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Speaker 4: know each other because the Pope did not like having

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Speaker 4: these general meetings of cardinals. And why not, Well, the

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Speaker 4: reason was that they had one at the beginning of

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Speaker 4: the Pontific in which some of the cardinals told the

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Speaker 4: Pope they didn't agree with the Pope's ideas.

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Speaker 5: So you know it really the Pope had the idea.

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Speaker 5: Is sad to say that.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's like meeting the Queen of England. You're

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Speaker 4: there to listen, not to talk unless the queen asked

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Speaker 4: you to talk. And I think but the Pope he

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Speaker 4: wanted to kind of go in a direction. The issue

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Speaker 4: back then was communion for divorce and remarried, and there

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Speaker 4: were contradictions by other cardinals, which I think is healthy

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Speaker 4: and good. And you know, by the way Benedict and

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Speaker 4: John pol the second had a much more open style.

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Speaker 5: Of these cardinal meetings, but no Bob.

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Speaker 4: Back to Bob's point, this is where things are going

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Speaker 4: to happen, where people are going to listen to each

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Speaker 4: other for the first time and kind of judge a man.

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Speaker 4: The old system had had a lot of virtues the

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Speaker 4: people who became cardinals, and the old system with those

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Speaker 4: who worked in the Roman curia for a long time

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Speaker 4: or those who rose to become archbishops of big diocese.

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Speaker 4: You occasionally had nuncios and ambassadors, but they were also

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Speaker 4: kind of Roman hands. So you had the people whose

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Speaker 4: talents were visible because they were the archery of New York, Paris,

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Speaker 4: La Berlin, Madrid and Lisbon. And then you had people

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Speaker 4: who knew how the Vatican work.

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Speaker 5: Now, the Vatican.

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Speaker 4: Basically has been kind of like in a stutter step motion,

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Speaker 4: you know, go here one day, go there the next.

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Speaker 4: The Archbishop of Paris won't be here because he's not

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Speaker 4: a cardinal. The archbisip of Los Angeles won't be here

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Speaker 4: because he's not a card same with Baltimore. So we

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Speaker 4: deal with the people that we have, and there are

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Speaker 4: good men there, but you know, getting to know them

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Speaker 4: is going to be tough. I hope there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of that socializing time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's lean into that for a minute, Bob.

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Speaker 1: Do you think Cardinal Paroline, the Secretary of State, has

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Speaker 1: emerged as one of the candidates. You saw him almost

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Speaker 1: pushing his own candidacy the other day. He gave a homily.

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Speaker 1: He wore Poop Francis's miter that he had worn at

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Speaker 1: a youth gathering and then tried to, you know, inspire

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Speaker 1: and I think, connect with the young people. It didn't

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Speaker 1: go so well. But is that a strike against him

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Speaker 1: that he's worked in the Vatican so long? Or do

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Speaker 1: you think these men from the peripheries, from the outer

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Speaker 1: you know, banks, if you will, of the Church, they're

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Speaker 1: looking for somebody who knows the score and can run

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Speaker 1: things here in Rome.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been living in Washington, d C. For the

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Speaker 2: last thirty years, so if I may use a Washington term,

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Speaker 2: some may fear a swamp creature. There's the problem of

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Speaker 2: people who have gone native and they're really part of

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Speaker 2: a bureaucracy rather than an evangelizing church that looks outside,

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Speaker 2: and I think sometimes that's overplayed, although there certainly are

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Speaker 2: some monseignori who swam around here in.

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Speaker 5: Rome.

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Speaker 2: Look it goes both ways, I suppose, as we were

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Speaker 2: saying earlier, basically the role of a bishop or of

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Speaker 2: a pope is to teach number one, to sanctify and

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Speaker 2: to cover. And you know, we're all looking for that

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Speaker 2: strange unicorn figure who's going to have all those all

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Speaker 2: those capabilities in excess.

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Speaker 1: By Cardinal Dolan saying we want John Pole, we want

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Speaker 1: Benedict's rigor, and we want Pope Francis's heart, well, those

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Speaker 1: are three different people. It's kind of a hard mix.

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Speaker 2: Just before he died, Cardinal Pelle and I were having

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Speaker 2: lunch and I said to him, you know, you've been

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Speaker 2: very close to the Holy Father. Is he just being

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Speaker 2: deceived on some of these matters by.

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Speaker 3: The people around him?

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Speaker 2: And he said to me, oh, Robert, he said, he

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Speaker 2: has been a bishop and an archbishop and now a

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Speaker 2: cardinal and a pope for many years, and so he ought.

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Speaker 3: To be aware that people around him may try to

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Speaker 3: do certain things. Maybe they do and they.

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Speaker 2: Fool him sometimes, but that's certainly that kind of experience

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Speaker 2: is something you can't entirely dispense with a person who's

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Speaker 2: had to run a large organization, could be a religious order,

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Speaker 2: it might be some a monastery or something. But I

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Speaker 2: think that that's an important feature that I myself am

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Speaker 2: going to be looking out for.

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Speaker 1: A people person. And that doesn't mean going out to

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Speaker 1: the strangers, but working with people in an organization in harmony.

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Speaker 1: That is a big and important task for any pope

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Speaker 1: because you drop in to this bureaucracy here and you

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Speaker 1: almost have to turn it to your own designs. The

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Speaker 1: first rule of thumb, and we should I say this

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Speaker 1: for everybody watching, the first rule of thumb of interpreting

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Speaker 1: these these conclaves and the lead up to them. This

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Speaker 1: is a battle of narratives. Right now, you heard Cardinal

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Speaker 1: Giovanni Battista Ray at the funeral of the Pope try

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Speaker 1: to urge for the continuation of Francis's agenda. The previous

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Speaker 1: pope always has a great influence as a major factor

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Speaker 1: on whoever the next man will be, usually because the

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Speaker 1: cardinals want to change course from what was, or adjust

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Speaker 1: or refine, but inevitably what the pope prior shapes the

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Speaker 1: pope to come, and the media has depicted Francis as

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Speaker 1: the people's pope. It reminds me of Cardinal Walter Casper,

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Speaker 1: who described Francis's theology as the people's theology. So the

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Speaker 1: problem is at times that theology ignored Catholic theology. Father,

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Speaker 1: tell me about the elements of doctrine, how doctrine and

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Speaker 1: style will shape the cardinal's decisions here and how Francis's

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Speaker 1: example influences their votes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, doctrine is the basis of unity in the church

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Speaker 4: because doctrine means teaching. Teaching leads to belief. So what

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Speaker 4: do we believe in in common? Not every Catholic Maths

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Speaker 4: and Sunday you preach, everybody praise out loud, the Creed,

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Speaker 4: they say it all together. The reason is that's what

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Speaker 4: that unites us in faith. The content of doctrine is

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Speaker 4: what things do we accept as true and what things.

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Speaker 5: Do we reject as false?

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Speaker 4: Though that's very important because if an organization doesn't have

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Speaker 4: a clear notion of what it believes in, then it's

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Speaker 4: a drift and sad to say. In the last Pontificate,

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Speaker 4: things that we took for granted that had been taught

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Speaker 4: directly by jump. All the Second and Benedict were contradicted

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Speaker 4: and ignored and even overturned.

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Speaker 3: And they are.

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Speaker 4: Sexuality issues and the death penalty or all religions sent

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Speaker 4: to us by God. These questions had been answered, but

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Speaker 4: they were reopened and the new answer wasn't good. So

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Speaker 4: we have to have a pope was willing to say

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Speaker 4: the unity of faith is not the Kumbai. Everybody's in

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Speaker 4: the room smiling at each other, you know, one of

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Speaker 4: the tropes of the pontagic. Let's all walk together. So

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Speaker 4: the big question is, well, where are we going and

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Speaker 4: what are we supposed to talk about on the way,

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Speaker 4: you know, and the apostles yeah, and then also who

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Speaker 4: gets in line, who's able to walk, and who's pushed

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Speaker 4: aside and said no, you're not on the path with us.

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Speaker 4: And the real image of the church is Jesus on

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Speaker 4: the mount giving the beatitude sermon. You know, everybody was listening.

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Speaker 4: Jesus was the center, and we took it in and

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Speaker 4: then try to apply it. I think the next pope

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Speaker 4: is going to hopefully embrace that role and say before

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Speaker 4: I say I want everybody to love each other, I

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Speaker 4: have to say I want everybody to believe that they

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Speaker 4: have to love each other, and that love is not

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Speaker 4: auto created by men men, it's given to what the

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Speaker 4: rules come from God.

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Speaker 5: In other words, what does love really mean living God's law?

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Speaker 1: Well, for those non Catholics looking, and we'll get into

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Speaker 1: more of this and subsequent episodes, But the papacy, the

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Speaker 1: pope is nothing more than the successor of Saint Peter,

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Speaker 1: that first Apostle. So it's an amazing thing to watch

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Speaker 1: happen because like the Apostles chose someone to fill Judas's

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Speaker 1: spot among the twelve, so through time they've come together

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Speaker 1: and chosen someone to fill peter spot and that continuous,

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Speaker 1: unbroken chain of two thousand plus years. I mean, Bob,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get into the weeds so deep on

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Speaker 1: this we sometimes forget the grandeur of an importance of

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Speaker 1: what this is. This is the vicar of Christ, the

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Speaker 1: first Apostle and his successor. I mean, that's what he's

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Speaker 1: charged with. Now, there have been spectacular flameouts, borsier popes

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Speaker 1: and horrible nightmares, but they didn't change doctrine. Pope Francis

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Speaker 1: attempt to shift the doctrine around a bit, or at

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Speaker 1: least the practice of it. I'll let you have the floor.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, though, I would encourage people who

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Speaker 2: are watching or listening not to get to apocalyptic about this.

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Speaker 2: I never tire of quoting a line from the American

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Speaker 2: modernist poet Ezra Pound, who said that any institution that

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Speaker 2: could survive the picturesqueness of the Borges has a certain

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Speaker 2: native resilience. And our Lord, and our Lord told us

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Speaker 2: that the gates of.

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Speaker 3: Hell shall not prevail against the Church.

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Speaker 2: So look, you know, I've got children and grandchildren, so

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Speaker 2: I'm immediately concerned about the next two or three generations,

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Speaker 2: and I pray to God that they don't have to

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Speaker 2: live with the church it's weakened or has lost its way,

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Speaker 2: or I mean, we all need the church to be

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Speaker 2: the church. But at the same time, I think we

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Speaker 2: help a great deal if we maintain that confidence in

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Speaker 2: ourselves that ultimately the Lord is in charge. We men

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Speaker 2: try to mess up everything, including the Church, but he's

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Speaker 2: in charge, and he knows that he tried to redeem

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Speaker 2: us on the cross, and he has put in motions

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Speaker 2: something that you rightly say has lasted over two thousand years,

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Speaker 2: which in human terms is almost a miracle.

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Speaker 5: In itself.

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Speaker 2: So we also worry over the next few days, next

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Speaker 2: few weeks, perhaps as this selection goes forward, but with

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Speaker 2: a certain confidence in the Lord.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Pope Benedict said famously, I posted it

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Speaker 1: on social media recently. Father that the Holy Spirit doesn't

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Speaker 1: select the pope. The Holy Spirit guides and inspires. The

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Speaker 1: Holy Spirit's presence is a confidence in the fact that

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Speaker 1: they can't mess it up. That's what basically he said,

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Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot of wisdom there. People

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Speaker 1: think the Holy Spirit comes down like a dove on

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Speaker 1: the heads of these hundred and thirty plus men, and

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Speaker 1: that their little machines that vote like the Holy Spirit.

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Speaker 1: Not necessarily.

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Speaker 4: No, the catture is never taught that the Holy Spirit

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Speaker 4: directly inspired the people who voted for the man who

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Speaker 4: ends up being the next Pope. What we say is

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Speaker 4: that the cardinals elect the pope, and then you only

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Speaker 4: become pope when you say I accept this election. So

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Speaker 4: it's a free choice matter on both sides, the ones

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Speaker 4: picking and the one accepting, So free choices. You know,

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Speaker 4: God loves us so much he gave us free choice

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Speaker 4: and free will. Now, of course, the quality of the

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Speaker 4: candidates depends on who's in the College of Cardinals. They're

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Speaker 4: all chosen by the pope. The quality of their deliberations

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Speaker 4: is how much attention do they pay to what their

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Speaker 4: job the job description of the pope is, And if

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Speaker 4: they disagree on what the job description is, then you.

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Speaker 5: Can have some problems.

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Speaker 4: But you know, the secret role of people praying for

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Speaker 4: others comes forward in this type of activity.

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Speaker 5: We need to pray for those cardinals.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about something it's kind of hard

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Speaker 1: to talk about because I've just run into some people

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Speaker 1: in recent days have reminded me of this, including a

436
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: bishop who was recently script of his title, forced to

437
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 1: resign frankly, just days before the Pope went to the hospital.

438
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 1: And this was a bishop who had done nothing wrong

439
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: except he had huge numbers of seminarians. I'll just say

440
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 1: it is Bishop Ray of France. He had huge number

441
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: of seminarians, but they were traditionally minded, and he was

442
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: a traditional bishop, and that attracted young men to the priesthood.

443
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: And he was sort of punished for that, sidelined for it,

444
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: and driven out of his post. There was an authoritarian

445
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: streak in Pope Francis that he recognized when he was

446
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: running the Jesuits. He said, you know, coming out of

447
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: that experience, after crushing a lot of toast, he said,

448
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: I have an authoritarian you know, default that I have

449
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 1: to be rid of. Well, it's apparent he never really

450
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: got rid of it. Talk to me about that, Bob,

451
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: and how that could be a sleeper factor here, because

452
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: many of those men in the Roman Couria, even if

453
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 1: they loved Pope Francis and agree with him ideologically, they

454
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 1: did suffer the whims his whimsical nature, where he would

455
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 1: flip on a dime and say no to something he

456
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: just said yes to, and they were subjected to that

457
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: sort of thing regularly. Yeah. No, I remember very early on.

458
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 2: I'm sure both of you do too, that it wasn't

459
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: only a matter of people feeling if they were precarious

460
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: because they could get fired, and many were for getting

461
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: crosswise with the pope. They also felt that they didn't

462
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 2: know what they were supposed to do.

463
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 3: And you know, that's one of the.

464
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 2: Other consequences of unclear teaching or unclear governance, that if

465
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: you step out too far in one direction, now you

466
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: find out that the boss has actually changed what he

467
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 2: hopes is going to happen. Now you look like you're

468
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 2: opposing him. And these changes happened very very quickly, you know,

469
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: and we.

470
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 3: Can even look back toward the beginning.

471
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: A lot of this has sort of become ancient history

472
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: because of the image that the Holy Father had of

473
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 2: being this sort of.

474
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 3: Gentle grandfather type.

475
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: You remember when the Sire Book came out the dictator

476
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: Pope very early on in the Pontificate, and that was

477
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 2: sparked by the way that he man handled and I

478
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 2: think that's not so too strong a term, the Knights

479
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: of Malta where Cardinal Burke was bounced out of there.

480
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 3: Some other people came and left very.

481
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: Quickly, and Malta was like an independently recognized almost nation.

482
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was that was an early sign and

483
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: when we saw it develop that.

484
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: On the one hand, yes, he had he presented this

485
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: very gentle, caring, merciful character and a lot of people

486
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: who attested to that, but he also had the iron

487
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: fist and the velvet glove whenever it came to something

488
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: you really wanted to get done. I won't speak to

489
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: canon long because we got the Canon lawyer here, but

490
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: obviously a lot a lot of that stuff just broke

491
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: the bounds of what might be called legal within the cafatur.

492
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: Father speak to that. I mean, not only the Knights

493
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: of Malta. Opus Day was opened up and rediscovered. He

494
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: shut down conservative, traditional Latin and right communities because they

495
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: were too devotional, an old school which he didn't care for.

496
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: Cardinal Pell, who was only doing his bidding. Cardinal Pell

497
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: was charged with finding all the hidden bank accounts and

498
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: fixing the finances of the Vatican. When he did it

499
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 1: and brought an accounting firm in, the Pope was convinced

500
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 1: to fire that firm and soon fire Pell. I mean

501
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: it boggles the mind in many ways.

502
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

503
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 4: During the pontificate, Pope Francis showed that he didn't consider

504
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 4: canon law to be a very important part of his

505
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 4: responsibility as pope, even though the church teaching is that

506
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 4: pope is the lawgiver, so not only does he give

507
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 4: the law, he also enforces it.

508
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 5: And then you know, this was not done.

509
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 4: For instance, a couple of bishops were removed one in

510
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 4: Puerto Rico Daniel Fernandez. We had bishops strictly in the

511
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 4: United States. They were removed without proper canonical process and

512
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 4: decrees enunciating why they were removed when never issued. Because

513
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 4: in Canon law, if you're accused of committing an offense

514
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 4: that would merit some form of punishment, you have a

515
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 4: right to self defense. So the right to self defense

516
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 4: includes you're informed of the charge, you're giving the evidence

517
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 4: behind the charge, and then you were able to respond

518
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 4: to that evidence, produce your own evidence, and then there's

519
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 4: a hearing so that the independent judgment can be rendered.

520
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 4: And none of that happened. You know, Bishop Strickland was

521
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 4: called in Nuncio's office and get told these are the

522
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: reasons why you can't.

523
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 5: Be bishop anymore.

524
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 4: And he never heard anything more.

525
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 5: You know, he just was out.

526
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: But how cognizant do you think the cardinal's gathering just

527
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,479
Speaker 1: a few blocks from where we are. How cognizant are

528
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: they of this widespread if you will, cleansing and firing

529
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: of people that the Pope just disagreed with. But they've

530
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: done nothing wrong, they were good men otherwise.

531
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's general knowledge that certainly affected Cardinal Burke.

532
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 4: Know he was denied his salary and his subsidized apartment,

533
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 4: which are given to all cardinals because they work for

534
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 4: the church and the Roman Curia and the Holy See

535
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 4: they're aware of it. I think they were uncomfortable with it.

536
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 4: So I hope and pray that in their deliberations they

537
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 4: identify whatever man is a chosen and accepts the election.

538
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 4: Cannot continue to act arbitrarily and ignore canon law because

539
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 4: people think canon law just a bunch of rules to

540
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 4: make people unhappy and restrict their freedom. No, that a

541
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 4: lot of other things that make people unhappy and restrict

542
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 4: their freedom. You know, I have about sin and vice.

543
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 4: But law, it properly appride allows everyone to have their

544
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 4: rights respected. And if there's anything we need in the

545
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 4: modern world to say people have rights, you can't say

546
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: you have a right if it's not respected by the

547
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 4: people in charge.

548
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: Bob, what's another factor that you think we are unaware

549
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: of or the public is unaware of, that will determine

550
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: the outcome of this papal election. Is there anything else

551
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: that you see?

552
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: Well, we are warned in the Old Testament not to

553
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: go after soothsayers and predictors of the future.

554
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: Certainly be very careful of I'm not asking you to

555
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: do that.

556
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: I'm not candidates, but you know, I think I've been

557
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: saying this now for a couple of years, but I

558
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: really do think that the cardinals from the peripheries could

559
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: be a surprise.

560
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: You know, we pretty much know.

561
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 2: What our American delegation is like. It's very much in

562
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: the mccarrack line and close to Pote France's. We know

563
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: what the Africans are. Europeans are a little bit more

564
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: of a mixed bag. But some of the people that

565
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: are farther out from the traditions with which were familiar,

566
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: they might surprise us. I would have to think that

567
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: if there's a place that the Holy Spirit is going

568
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: to be working a little bit over time, it would

569
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: have to be in one of that group of people,

570
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: because they're going to be learning. They're going to be

571
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 2: a very stiff, steep learning curve, and I think they

572
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 2: will want to play a role. They'll be looking at

573
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 2: some of the figures that they've looked up to in

574
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: the past as leaders, but I think they're going to

575
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: begin to make their own own judgments and I'm hoping

576
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 2: that the God of surprises is going to surprise us.

577
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

578
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: Well, you know, Pope Francis father used to always say, well,

579
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: he told young people, and I think I would argue

580
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: it's the it's the key to unlock his papacy. He

581
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: told young people, go out and make a mess. God

582
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: wants you to go out and make a mess, meaning

583
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: don't you know, don't don't follow the age or the world,

584
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: go do your own thing. But in fact, and in

585
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: his papacy, he too went out made a mess. What

586
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: impact will that have? Do you think the incoherence at times,

587
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: the back and forth, you know where he says, we

588
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: have to go out and bless gay unions. I want

589
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: every priest to do this. Then the Africans come back.

590
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: One of the voters here, Cardinal Labongo from Congo, comes

591
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: and says, we can't accept this on the continent of Africa.

592
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: This is illegal. We'll never accept this. So he says, okay, fine,

593
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: we'll give you a carve out. And they basically did

594
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: a moral carve out for Africa. Well, why is Africa

595
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: different from you know, Manhattan or Poughkeepsie. Speak to that

596
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: and how that might shape these cardinals on the peripheric.

597
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 4: No, this is part of the incoherence that we experienced,

598
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 4: and that we have to call a spade a space.

599
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 4: It is incoherent to say Catholic teaching is X. Everybody

600
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 4: has to follow X, except the people in Africa because

601
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 4: they have a different notion where Catholic teaching is No.

602
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 4: It was it was a political move designed not to

603
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 4: cause problems, and of course they didn't want to withdraw

604
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 4: this permission given now for blessing homosexual couples, so they said, okay, well,

605
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 4: where people get upset, they.

606
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 5: Don't have to do it.

607
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 4: Well, look, the point here, I think for the overall

608
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 4: conclave discussion phase is do we want to admit we

609
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 4: have a problem and then do something about it or

610
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 4: do we want to pretend everything was fine and we

611
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 4: need someone who's going to continue with that line, Because

612
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 4: of course Poe Francis did not admit that there was

613
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 4: a problem with gay blessings or community for divorce and remarried.

614
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 4: He thought the problem was the people who disagree with

615
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 4: him on that. So much as we love the pope,

616
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean we agree with everything he does when

617
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 4: it contradicts what his predecessors did. So the cardinal have

618
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 4: to make a courageous decision. Will they say yes to

619
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 4: the church's constant tradition and teaching or will they say no?

620
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 4: What got started in the last pnivit has to continue.

621
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 4: That's the real stark choice they.

622
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: Face, that is it. That is really the choice right there.

623
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: And the question is, Bob, are they hearing that. I

624
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: know a number of cardinals have gone into these general

625
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: meetings this week and said, brothers, we have a problem.

626
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: There's a lack of clarity. The people are confused, that

627
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: they're abandoning us. Because of this, we are sent We

628
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: are the axis Mundi, as our friend Richard Neuhaus used

629
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: to say, this is the acxis mundi upon which the

630
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: whole world turns. When you throw that off balance, every

631
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: faith is thrown off balance. Do you think they're getting

632
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: that message. I'm hearing mixed things.

633
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm hearing that as well. I think that they

634
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: are not particularly well informed about these controversies and potential

635
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: crises that exist in the church, potential divisions. Our friend

636
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: Cardinal Mueller has talked about the possibility of sism if

637
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: some of these things aren't remedied, and I agree with

638
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: that absolutely entirely. And then there's just a bigger question

639
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: of what is the role of the church in the

640
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: world right now? Now we want the church to be

641
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: going out and evangelizing, but should it be evangelizing in

642
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: a way that it entangles it in some certain political issues.

643
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: Like immigration for example.

644
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: We've talked about this before on the show, which make

645
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: it almost look like to be a Catholic in our

646
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: time is to take a certain political stance. I think

647
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: that that's the wrong thing for a pope to do,

648
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: and in fact, I think it's been counterproductive, not only

649
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: in North America but also in Europe that Pope Francis

650
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: harped so much on the immigration question when everyday people

651
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: are finding their communities being destroyed and even the rule

652
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 2: of law being violated in certain areas because certain groups

653
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: are given preference, that there's two tiered policing, for example,

654
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: in some places. So look, there's a lot there, and

655
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: there's a lot within the church, and there's a lot outside.

656
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 2: I don't have a great deal of confidence that these

657
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: people are hearing it. I don't have to have a

658
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 2: great deal of confidence that they knew it before they

659
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 2: arrived here. So you know, I mentioned the steep learning curve.

660
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 3: Let's just hope.

661
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all you can do at the end of

662
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: the day, hope and pray, which you know, Cardinal Burke

663
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: has launched this novena a crusade, if you will, a

664
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: prayer to invite the Holy Spirit to work a miracle

665
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: here and break through the consciences of these cardinals. Father,

666
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: as we wrap up, the most surprising thing you heard

667
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: or came across in the last couple of days. One

668
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: hears and sees things here that you don't see other places.

669
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: I mean, you just come across the entirety of the church.

670
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: It's sort of the crossroads for the world.

671
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 5: Well, that's a hard question.

672
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 4: I guess the most surprising thing is that hearing the

673
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 4: notion that there's kind of a resistance to candor resistance

674
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 4: to the appeals of people in the College of Carters

675
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 4: who are dissatisfied with what we have. Because if that's

676
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 4: the case, then we're you know, amnesia becomes a requisite

677
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 4: for getting the next pope elected. I mean, how can

678
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 4: you pretend, with the decline in religious practice in Europe,

679
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: for instance, that we don't have a five alarm fire

680
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 4: going on in the church in Europe. I mean, we

681
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 4: have basically a political class hostile to the church. People

682
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 4: aren't going there. The ones who like the Latin Mass

683
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 4: and were going were being evicted, And then we have

684
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 4: people resigning from the church in Germany. The vocations picture

685
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 4: the birth dearth.

686
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 5: You know, all of the problems that.

687
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 4: We have in Europe and to say that the the

688
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 4: mission of church is fine because we're instructing people that

689
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 4: immigrants should be a lot out in capitalism produces death,

690
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 4: and you know, we have to do everything possible we

691
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 4: can not to have an environmental crisis and say to well,

692
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 4: wait a minute, I thought religions about getting to heaven

693
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 4: and how to live well on earth. So I think

694
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 4: if the cardinals don't confront that we have a problematic situation,

695
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 4: then they're amnesiacs, and you know they're not going to

696
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 4: be putting the right man in place.

697
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 5: I hope that doesn't happen.

698
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard in the

699
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: last few days, or they changed your perception of something

700
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: you had on your way here.

701
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: Well, I can give you a precise number a cardinal

702
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: that would trust very much. Yeah, says he thinks that

703
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: there are only ten cardinals among the voters who are

704
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: actually theologians.

705
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: Wow, out of one hundred and thirty three, out of.

706
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 2: One hundred and thirty three, So I don't think he

707
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: meant by that that you know, that they were academic theologians,

708
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: or that they had some kind of specialty. I think

709
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: he was just saying that, you know, it's good, solid

710
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 2: understanding the faith, the enormous tree addition that we have,

711
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: you know, there's been brought forward. I mean, you can

712
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: talk about mercy all you like, but the Church is

713
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 2: says that that idea of mercy is informed by two

714
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: thousand years a very holy geniuses who have contributed to

715
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: a tradition that enables us to understand human beings, our

716
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: relationship to one another, and our relationship to God. And

717
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: if we don't have a rich understanding of that, a

718
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: person that is, for example, is not well schooled in

719
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 2: Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas aquiments.

720
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: You know, we're just it says.

721
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: Tired metaphor, but we're arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

722
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: We're not really getting to the place we want to

723
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 2: get by being on the ship of faith.

724
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 3: So that number of ten, boy, that was a surprising

725
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 3: number to me.

726
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: That's troubling. And as father alluded to earlier, at a

727
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: time when young people and we saw it over Easter

728
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: in France, in the United States, huge numbers coming to

729
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: be baptized, and they're all young people and a lot

730
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: of them are guys. I've seen them. I saw them

731
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: at Old Saint Patrick's Church down in the village. You know,

732
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: here are all these young guys coming to be baptized.

733
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 1: What is driving that? And here's the real challenge for

734
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: the cardinals. Are the young people that are coming. Are

735
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: they coming for the church you're giving them and the

736
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: church that is and was, or will they find some

737
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: other church presented to them that they didn't sign up for?

738
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: And that to me is the biggest concern. And if

739
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: they were, if they're worried about the future, they should

740
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:34,479
Speaker 1: look to that father.

741
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, agreement, Raymond, is exactly. You know, the enthusiasm in

742
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 4: the church is based on enthusiasm for the eternal truths,

743
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 4: the permanent things, and then the mystical things. You know,

744
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 4: the mystery of life does not consist in fixing the plumbing.

745
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 4: Plumbing is important, but that's not why we call a priest,

746
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 4: you know. So you know, the pope's job is not

747
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 4: to be chief advisor to wellness project of the United Nations.

748
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 5: You know, it has to be how do we get people.

749
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 4: To recognize Jesus's Lord and then accept his teaching and

750
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 4: then live in accordance with it. And Cardinal Sarah famously

751
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 4: wrote a book called God or Nothing, and I think

752
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 4: that really should be the motto of those going into

753
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 4: the Senate, into the conflict. Rather, we're here to serve God,

754
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 4: otherwise nothing matters.

755
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: Well. You also said something early on about candor and

756
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: Archbishop charleship Hew, formerly of Philadelphia, he wrote a great piece,

757
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: very short piece, but he said, I have lovely and

758
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: warm memories of Pope Francis. But and interregnum, the time

759
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 1: between the death of the pope and the election of another,

760
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: it's a time for candor, he said. It's a time

761
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: to candidly say this is what we went through, and

762
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: this is what we need, this is what needs fixing.

763
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 1: And unless the cardinals are willing to do that, and

764
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: all of us, everybody listening, and those of us here,

765
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: unless we're willing to engage in that same candor, I

766
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: worry about the outcome here because it collapses into nostalgia.

767
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: And you know, isn't it wonderful? And police pray for

768
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: us all and you know, a sainted pope. It's just

769
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: it's not reality. I'll give you all each the last

770
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: word of what you're looking forward to in the week ahead.

771
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: Bob will start with you.

772
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 5: Well, I mentioned it earlier.

773
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: I really hope that what we're going to see is

774
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 2: a kind of an increasing diversity of views.

775
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 3: I think is the way to look at it.

776
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: That as people begin to know one another and they

777
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 2: feel a little bit more comfortable with one another, they're

778
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: willing to venture out and raise some questions. Because we

779
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 2: were all told, you know, we just mentioned these young people,

780
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: that there was going to be a Francis effect that

781
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: was going to draw people into the church, draw.

782
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 3: Young people into the church and whatnot. We haven't seen that.

783
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 2: And the church is hemorrhaging people left and right, and

784
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: in the United States, here in Europe, and it seems

785
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 2: to be strong in Africa and a few other places.

786
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: But if we want a global effect of really bringing

787
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: the Gospel of Jesus Christ two people so that they

788
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: come to Christ themselves, I think we need to set

789
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 2: off in a different direction. We had twelve years of mercy, mercy, mercy,

790
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 2: and I think we need something else right now. And

791
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 2: I think why is observers of the church in the

792
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,879
Speaker 2: world at this point, we'll lash onto that and maybe

793
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: we'll be surprised that some of the opinions we start

794
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: to see.

795
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 4: A peer Father Gerald Murray, Yeah, Raymond, I would say,

796
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 4: I'm looking forward to hearing more public expressions of what's

797
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 4: going on in these general congregations. And I'm looking forward

798
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 4: to hearing what I would say is basic Christianity being

799
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 4: put forward as the most important criteria here. Yeah, when

800
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 4: that cardinal or whoever you know gets up at a

801
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 4: meeting and says X y Z, I hope we'll could

802
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 4: also get in front of the microphone and tell us,

803
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 4: because in the age of communications, it's not enough to

804
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 4: tell people we know what we're doing, you know, trust us.

805
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 4: We have to say, tell us what you want, We'll

806
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 4: support it if it sounds good.

807
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 5: So that would be what I'd look forward to.

808
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 4: More information, more sharing, and then to be quite honest,

809
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 4: more Cardinal Sarah, approach God or nothing.

810
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: We will check in with you all Monday in the

811
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: lead up to the conclave. Conclave begins Wednesday, May seventh,

812
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: and then it's really secret ballots. We'll just be watching

813
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: the smoke and trying to shape the reaction on the

814
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: outside for you. I hope this has giving you a

815
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: little insight into the movements of the conclave before it begins.

816
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: Will have much more for you on the candidates and

817
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: other issues surrounding this in the days ahead. This Arroyo

818
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: Grande series Conclave Crew Vatican addition continues. Don't miss an episode,

819
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: go subscribe. Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray. We will convene again.

820
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 1: I'm Raimond Arroyo from the Vatican. See you next time.

821
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and

822
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,040
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823
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:11,040
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824
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