1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600
Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 2: Scott Johnson spent much of the last decade in the

3
00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,680
Speaker 2: Middle East, covering the wars in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and

4
00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,239
Speaker 2: in Africa, reporting on politics and current affairs. He's been

5
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,600
Speaker 2: the chief of Newsweeks Mexico, Baghdad and Africa bureaus, as

6
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,120
Speaker 2: well as a special correspondent from Paris. Has acclaimed twenty

7
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,840
Speaker 2: twelve memoir, The Wolf and the Watchman, was listed long

8
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 2: listed for the National Book Award, named a Washington Post

9
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,000
Speaker 2: Notable Book. He's appeared on all kinds of American media,

10
00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,720
Speaker 2: CNN and PR. You've probably seen him on television at

11
00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,279
Speaker 2: some point. Lives in California with his wife and son,

12
00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 2: and has written a terrific new book called The con

13
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,920
Speaker 2: Queen of Hollywood, The Hunt for an Evil Genius. Scott,

14
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 2: Welcome to Coast to Coast.

15
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:46,599
Speaker 3: Hi, George, great to be here.

16
00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.

17
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,479
Speaker 2: I read this article. I read an article about your

18
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,960
Speaker 2: book in Rolling Stone like a week ago. I thought

19
00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 2: there's no way we're going to get this guy on here,

20
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,280
Speaker 2: but we reached out, and so glad to have you here.

21
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 2: A terrific book, just a terrific story. Can you tell

22
00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,440
Speaker 2: us how you got about it, the first tip, what

23
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 2: it came in, when you got onto tracking this down.

24
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, So this was back in twenty eighteen. I was

25
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:19,479
Speaker 4: living in Los Angeles and I was working at the

26
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,880
Speaker 4: Hollywood Reporter, where I wrote feature stories and my beat

27
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:30,360
Speaker 4: was generally to explore the underside, the underbelly of Hollywood.

28
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 4: So I did a lot of work on crimes, you know, lawsuits, murders, scams,

29
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,080
Speaker 4: anything that kind of touched that seam of the underbelly

30
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 4: of Hollywood. And as you said in your intro, there's

31
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 4: plenty of grist for that mill in Hollywood. There's lots

32
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,880
Speaker 4: of shady stuff going on, as I'm sure your listeners know.

33
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 4: So one day I was in the office and a

34
00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 4: colleague of mine passed by my desk and she's said, hey,

35
00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 4: you know you should.

36
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:02,960
Speaker 3: Check this out.

37
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:09,520
Speaker 4: Uh, there's a producer that I know, Kathleen Kennedy, who

38
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 4: was behind ET and some other huge blockbuster hits. She said,

39
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:20,920
Speaker 4: she has, Uh there's something fishy. She didn't really know what.

40
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,760
Speaker 4: There's something fishy going on, some sort of impersonation she's

41
00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,000
Speaker 4: reached out to a private detective firm in New York.

42
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 4: You might want to check it out. So I made

43
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:38,720
Speaker 4: a couple of calls and and I I confirmed that

44
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,239
Speaker 4: that that there was in fact some sort of impersonation

45
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,440
Speaker 4: going on. But at the time it struck me as

46
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,839
Speaker 4: you know, not particularly important, maybe sort of a run

47
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,119
Speaker 4: of the mill, you know, grift that that you see

48
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,800
Speaker 4: all the time. And then from there I started reporting

49
00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,239
Speaker 4: and it quickly became a parent that there is a

50
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 4: lot more to it. But that's when it started. So

51
00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:05,680
Speaker 4: it's been a few years in the making.

52
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,360
Speaker 2: We'll talk about the process of piecing this together. And

53
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,120
Speaker 2: it's a fascinating story all by itself. And it seems

54
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,919
Speaker 2: like along the way, the more the word gets out,

55
00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,760
Speaker 2: the more victims that come forward. I wonder, how what

56
00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,920
Speaker 2: is the reaction so far? Your book's only been out

57
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,480
Speaker 2: a short time, but what is the reaction so far

58
00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,400
Speaker 2: in Hollywood from the major players and have has this

59
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 2: book the publication resulted in even more victims coming forward?

60
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 4: That's an interesting question. I think a lot of people

61
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 4: are still reading it. I have heard from some people,

62
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,280
Speaker 4: I mean generally, the reaction has been very very positive.

63
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 4: I actually haven't heard of any new victims coming out

64
00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 4: since the publication of the book. That said, I was

65
00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 4: hearing about new victims almost right up until publication dates.

66
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,680
Speaker 4: As I said in the book, at one point, I

67
00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,760
Speaker 4: was in the UK at the very end of this

68
00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,520
Speaker 4: year's long process, and I was in a court setting,

69
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,000
Speaker 4: and we can talk about that more down the road,

70
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,040
Speaker 4: but it was in that setting that I suddenly became

71
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,159
Speaker 4: aware of a whole new crop of victims from a

72
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,279
Speaker 4: part of the world, Scandinavia, that I had never heard about.

73
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,600
Speaker 4: And this is not just one victim, but probably several dozen,

74
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,159
Speaker 4: and nobody had heard about them outside of Scandinavia. So

75
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:36,400
Speaker 4: that kind of thing was happening right up until the

76
00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,880
Speaker 4: very end. Since the publication of the book, I haven't

77
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,560
Speaker 4: heard of any new ones, but I think maybe some

78
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 4: of the other protagonists in the book have the investigator

79
00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,159
Speaker 4: and probably the FBI as well.

80
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,000
Speaker 2: I thought one of the most fascinating aspects of the

81
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 2: book is how brazen this person you identify as the

82
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,600
Speaker 2: con queen of Hollywood, How brazen they are in choosing

83
00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 2: the people that they impersonate and women of considerable power

84
00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,600
Speaker 2: and influence. You've got to have some You've got to

85
00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 2: have some nerves had taken on the persona of the

86
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,520
Speaker 2: people that we're targeted here.

87
00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's really quite extraordinary. I mean,

88
00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,039
Speaker 4: of course we've all heard of impersonation, right, and it's

89
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,479
Speaker 4: something that I think, at first glance seems like a

90
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 4: pretty run of the mill kind of scam. But when

91
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,080
Speaker 4: you really sit with it for a minute, as I'm

92
00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:35,360
Speaker 4: sure you have now, the skill required and also, as

93
00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:39,880
Speaker 4: you say, the brazenness of it is just shocking. It

94
00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,240
Speaker 4: took me a minute to really understand that. But if

95
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,200
Speaker 4: you kind of sit back and you think, well, how

96
00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,800
Speaker 4: would I do it or how would you do it?

97
00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,000
Speaker 4: You have to pick up the phone. And again I

98
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,960
Speaker 4: should emphasize that this is sort of an old school

99
00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,920
Speaker 4: scam in the way because it relies on these kind

100
00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,120
Speaker 4: of analog technologies like the telephone or skype or some

101
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,279
Speaker 4: of these things that are really far removed from the

102
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 4: subject of your previous guest, artificial intelligence. I mean, a

103
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,880
Speaker 4: shudder to think what a scammer could do with artificial

104
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,520
Speaker 4: intelligence these days. But anyways, the you know, you pick

105
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:21,760
Speaker 4: up a phone and you call a complete stranger, and

106
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,080
Speaker 4: you have to convince that stranger not only to stay

107
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,159
Speaker 4: on the line with you and not dismiss you immediately,

108
00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,039
Speaker 4: but then convince that stranger that you are one of

109
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 4: the most powerful, well known, respected, you know, influential titans

110
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,240
Speaker 4: of industry in the world, and keep that person on

111
00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,839
Speaker 4: the hook for hours and days and weeks and sometimes months,

112
00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,680
Speaker 4: stringing them along on a series of increasingly bizarre and

113
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 4: complex scenarios that take them all around the world literally

114
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,000
Speaker 4: quite literally out of their home and all the way

115
00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:01,919
Speaker 4: around the world on multiple global trips, all through the

116
00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,760
Speaker 4: talent of your voice. It's just it's a kind of

117
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,360
Speaker 4: it's shocking really in scale when you sit and sit

118
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:10,600
Speaker 4: with it for a minute.

119
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 2: Well, let's start with sort of describing how the scam works.

120
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,720
Speaker 2: You have some great examples right off the bat. The

121
00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 2: drone operator in chapter one is an example of somebody

122
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 2: who got taken to the cleaners and how it operated

123
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 2: for him.

124
00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,480
Speaker 1: Tell us the story, right, So.

125
00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:36,240
Speaker 4: The drone operator is a young guy named Will. He

126
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,720
Speaker 4: was about twenty six when this started. He was working

127
00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,400
Speaker 4: a job in the Midwest, and he got a phone

128
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:49,920
Speaker 4: call one day from a woman who he believed to

129
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 4: be Amy Pascal. Amy Pascal is of course, one of

130
00:07:53,960 --> 00:08:00,480
Speaker 4: the most powerful and influential producers in Hollywood. She was

131
00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,280
Speaker 4: was the brains behind The Post and one of the

132
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:09,240
Speaker 4: Spider Man movies and any number of other huge Hollywood blockbusters.

133
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,720
Speaker 4: And this Amy Pascal told Will that she had found

134
00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,440
Speaker 4: his contact online and she had perused.

135
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 3: Some of his work. He was a photographer as well as.

136
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,800
Speaker 4: A drone operator, and she said that she was looking

137
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:31,640
Speaker 4: for a talented, hungry, up and coming photographer like himself

138
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,959
Speaker 4: to do some work for her on a project that

139
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,520
Speaker 4: she wanted to keep under wraps for the moment. Now,

140
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,560
Speaker 4: remember that at this time, Amy Pascal was just coming

141
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,920
Speaker 4: off the real Amy Pascal was just coming off a

142
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,800
Speaker 4: scandal of her own. Her emails had been hacked in

143
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:55,520
Speaker 4: a very widely publicized episode in Hollywood, and there were

144
00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:01,920
Speaker 4: all sorts of scandalous stilating relations in the hack. So

145
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,520
Speaker 4: this fake Amy Pascal told Will that she wanted to

146
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 4: keep the whole thing under wraps because she was being

147
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,599
Speaker 4: very cautious about her own reputation.

148
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:13,480
Speaker 3: As a result of this hack.

149
00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 4: And so could they talk about a project that would

150
00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,719
Speaker 4: involve him working for her?

151
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 3: So he said sure.

152
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 4: They proceeded to have a number of conversations and Amy

153
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:30,679
Speaker 4: Pascal said that she was developing a project for Netflix

154
00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:40,080
Speaker 4: that was to be filmed and shot in Indonesia, and

155
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 4: she needed.

156
00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,079
Speaker 3: A director of photography to.

157
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:49,120
Speaker 4: Go to Indonesia and do some scouting, some photography, look

158
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,800
Speaker 4: for storylines, develop a storyboard, develop a whole sort of

159
00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:00,720
Speaker 4: framework for this show, and that he would be working

160
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:02,240
Speaker 4: directly with her.

161
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:03,679
Speaker 3: The two of them would sort.

162
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,320
Speaker 4: Of partner up in this quiet way, and they would

163
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,840
Speaker 4: develop this project and they would together take it around

164
00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 4: in Los Angeles, take it to the Netflix executives that

165
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,320
Speaker 4: she was in touch with, and they would sell it

166
00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,040
Speaker 4: and that would be that. So, you know, in the

167
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 4: face of it, when when you or I or your

168
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,520
Speaker 4: listeners hear that, you might think, well, that's I don't know,

169
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:35,240
Speaker 4: maybe that's preposterous, or that sounds scammy, or you know,

170
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,440
Speaker 4: I would never do something like that. But I think

171
00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,160
Speaker 4: it's a testament to the power and the and the

172
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,600
Speaker 4: abilities of this particular person that not only did he

173
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 4: convince Will to do this, but he convinced dozens and

174
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,480
Speaker 4: dozens of other people to do exactly the same thing,

175
00:10:53,720 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 4: using different personalities, different scenarios, different storylines, over and over

176
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 4: and over again, over a period of many many years.

177
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 4: And these are not These victims were not stupid people.

178
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 4: We can talk a little bit more about the psychology

179
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,760
Speaker 4: of the victim, but just to point out that you will,

180
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:23,680
Speaker 4: for instance, was an accomplished, skeptical, smart, educated person who

181
00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,199
Speaker 4: had been around a bit.

182
00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:26,760
Speaker 3: He'd worked, he'd traveled a.

183
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:32,360
Speaker 4: Fair bit, and so this scenario didn't seem completely far

184
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,880
Speaker 4: fetched to him. So off he went on his first

185
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 4: trip to Indonesia, traveled around, took a bunch of pictures,

186
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 4: was in constant contact with her. They spoke every day,

187
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,160
Speaker 4: multiple times a day on the telephone. He comes back

188
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:52,160
Speaker 4: and then Amy asks him to return to Indonesia for

189
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,960
Speaker 4: a second trip. So this process repeated itself, and he

190
00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,960
Speaker 4: ultimately took four trips Indonesia, four round trips to Indonesia.

191
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,720
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering to myself, how does she How does

192
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,760
Speaker 2: the con queen make money off of forcing somebody to

193
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,600
Speaker 2: pay their own way to Indonesia back and forth.

194
00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,360
Speaker 3: Yes, good question.

195
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,560
Speaker 4: And this is the question that sort of lies in

196
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,239
Speaker 4: a way at the heart of the of the scam,

197
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,199
Speaker 4: because it's it's a very it's it's a it's a

198
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,560
Speaker 4: it's a game of slim margins. I'll put it that way,

199
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:29,280
Speaker 4: it's a very complicated, tricky kind of a scam. So uh, Basically,

200
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:35,200
Speaker 4: the way it worked was that the the con Queen

201
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,199
Speaker 4: would say, look, go to Indonesia.

202
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,280
Speaker 3: You will pay your way.

203
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,959
Speaker 4: And then I will reimburse you on the back end. Now,

204
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:52,040
Speaker 4: that is a very standard way of operating for freelancers,

205
00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 4: you know, everywhere. It's it's how most magazine journalists and

206
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,960
Speaker 4: freelance journalists do their work. They get in the sign

207
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,720
Speaker 4: they pay their way, and then on the back end,

208
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 4: when they file their invoice, they include an expense report

209
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,199
Speaker 4: with all the expenses that they've incurred. I've done that

210
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,920
Speaker 4: dozens of times and it's it's very standard, so that

211
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,679
Speaker 4: that would not be out of the ordinary. Now, once

212
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:22,800
Speaker 4: they're there, the con Queen would say, okay, you're here

213
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,080
Speaker 4: in Indonesia. I need you to work with these people.

214
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,120
Speaker 4: And she had a very specific short list of people

215
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,560
Speaker 4: who could be could be relied on, So I need

216
00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,880
Speaker 4: you to work with them. These are their rates. Again,

217
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,000
Speaker 4: you know, you'll be reimbursed on the back end. So

218
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:49,320
Speaker 4: that's where the that's where the that's where the margins come.

219
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,800
Speaker 4: So the rates that these vendors for lack of a

220
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:57,200
Speaker 4: better word, would would charge would be far in excess

221
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 4: of the norm, and then the con queen would skim

222
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,959
Speaker 4: off the top of the rates. So, for instance, a driver,

223
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,080
Speaker 4: a driver would be assigned and the driver would say, okay,

224
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:09,800
Speaker 4: well it's going to be you know, two hundred dollars

225
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,000
Speaker 4: a day to drive you up and down and all around,

226
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,120
Speaker 4: and then the con queen would have entered into an

227
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,240
Speaker 4: arrangement with this driver and would be skimming, so paying

228
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 4: the driver let's say twenty five dollars a day and

229
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 4: then taking the one seventy five and pocketing it something

230
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:34,520
Speaker 4: like that. So the first question that comes to everybody is, well,

231
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,960
Speaker 4: that seems like a ridiculously large amount of work and

232
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 4: a huge headache for such small gains on the back end.

233
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,440
Speaker 4: Why on earth would anybody go to such lengths to

234
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,040
Speaker 4: deceive people just to make you know, a few one

235
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 4: hundred dollars or a few thousand dollars in the end,

236
00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 4: And it's a it's a very good question, and the

237
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,240
Speaker 4: the answer, I think is really what opens the door

238
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,600
Speaker 4: to the whole story of the book, because at the

239
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 4: end of the day, the amounts of money that were

240
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,040
Speaker 4: in question were relatively small. And on the whole the take.

241
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,240
Speaker 4: The take was about I don't know a million or

242
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,880
Speaker 4: maybe two million dollars for the concreeene over a peter

243
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,400
Speaker 4: of several years. That's not a huge amount of money

244
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,720
Speaker 4: when you put it side by side with some of

245
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 4: these other very well publicized scams, which then begs the question, well,

246
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,880
Speaker 4: what was the point of the scam? And the point

247
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,800
Speaker 4: of the scam, as far as I can tell, had

248
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,800
Speaker 4: a lot more to do with the psychology of this impersonator.

249
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,680
Speaker 3: It was really all about.

250
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,360
Speaker 4: The psychological manipulation.

251
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:49,120
Speaker 3: That was on offer.

252
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,000
Speaker 4: This was a game of deception, This was a game

253
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:59,000
Speaker 4: of power. This was a sadistic exercise, and the scam

254
00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:04,640
Speaker 4: allowed for the impostor to enjoy the fruits, these kind

255
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:11,560
Speaker 4: of psychologically dark fruits that were born of putting all

256
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 4: these people through these incredibly tortured and impossible scenarios.

257
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,680
Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast am every weeknight at

258
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam

259
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:23,800
Speaker 1: dot com for more