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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: Mark Stavish with us. Mark's website as Hermiticinstitute dot org

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Speaker 2: linked up at Coast tocoastam dot com. He's got a

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Speaker 2: number of books out there, including, of course Between the Gates,

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Speaker 2: Lucid Dreaming, Astral projection, and the Body of Light in

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Speaker 2: Western esoterism. He's got these studies in poltergeis, obsession and possession,

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Speaker 2: which we're talking about right now. Is it conceivable that

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Speaker 2: people can protect themselves Mark from these negative psychic attacks, well.

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Speaker 3: Of course, and it truly a matter of getting to

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Speaker 3: understand the importance of understanding your own mind, being very

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Speaker 3: careful about what you put into that mind, what you

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Speaker 3: consume in terms of media, in terms of information all

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Speaker 3: the time, and taking some time out to have a

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Speaker 3: good spiritual practice. People who have a fairly healthy and

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Speaker 3: robust spiritual practice tend in general not to have a

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Speaker 3: lot of these problems. When you look at folks who

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Speaker 3: are often come up as the case studies of paranormal,

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Speaker 3: unwanted and unpleasant paranormal phenomena. We often find that they

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Speaker 3: don't really have a spiritual practice, they're not really committed

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Speaker 3: to anything in that domain. So taking control of your

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Speaker 3: own mind, taking control of your own life, is really

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Speaker 3: the best protection there is.

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Speaker 2: Mark, have you ever witnessed a person who was under

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Speaker 2: some kind of demonic possession?

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Speaker 3: I don't believe I've seen it directly in that way.

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Speaker 3: I did work in social services, and I thought a

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Speaker 3: lot of obsessive personality traits that were bordering on possession.

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Speaker 3: I saw that quite a bit because of the environment. Remember,

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Speaker 3: the environment is is really very hostile one, very aggressive one.

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Speaker 3: I have been a part of the cleaning up of

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Speaker 3: environments that things had occurred in. And this goes into

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Speaker 3: one of the ways to protect ourselves is you know,

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Speaker 3: what are the friends we keep, what are the environments

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Speaker 3: we're in, and even to some degree, what are the

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Speaker 3: things we collect. You know, we talked about individuals being possessed,

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Speaker 3: but you know, what we'll call energies or qualities or

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Speaker 3: beings can also be attached to objects in places, and

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Speaker 3: then they become attached to us because we happen to

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Speaker 3: be there. So like in terms of things, even religious items,

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Speaker 3: I mean you're you may have a rosary from someone

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Speaker 3: who you thought was a saint, you know, because you

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Speaker 3: knew them and they prayed all the time, but we

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Speaker 3: don't know what the real state of mind was, you know,

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Speaker 3: when they were doing that. We're hoping it was good,

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Speaker 3: but you never know, you know, so especially if some

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Speaker 3: of the some prayers aren't always you know, I want

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Speaker 3: to talk about being centered and unworthy when things are

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Speaker 3: more robust and more positive, a little more positive self

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Speaker 3: image there. But I know people who were big collectors

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Speaker 3: of militaria. And I remember visiting my sister in law

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Speaker 3: once at the antique store she worked at huge, huge

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Speaker 3: vendor military and she asked me to get something out

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Speaker 3: of the drawer for and I reached into that drawer

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Speaker 3: and I got said it was like sticking my hand

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Speaker 3: in the cobwebs, and what I was pulling out was

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Speaker 3: a Naziss ceremonial dagger.

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Speaker 1: It was for a.

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Speaker 3: Customer, you know, And I felt like I had to

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Speaker 3: go wash and I did. And that's it. You can feel,

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Speaker 3: just as you can feel the positive energies, we'll call

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Speaker 3: it that feelings of goodness, you kind of know when

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Speaker 3: something's not right and you got to pay attention. This

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Speaker 3: is really important when you're around people, places are things,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't feel right, you know, just excuse yourself

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Speaker 3: because it starts slowly. The thread starts.

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Speaker 2: Slowly about would like, would you ever like to witness

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Speaker 2: in exorcism?

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Speaker 3: Well, I I have witnessed exorcisms and I participated in them,

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Speaker 3: but not what you're thinking in terms of that kind

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Speaker 3: of full blown you know, levitating crazy movie stuff. You know,

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Speaker 3: these were these were kind of like extended blessings if

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Speaker 3: you will, okay, where someone was demonstrating uh, some unusual

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Speaker 3: but not clarified the problems, and of course the people

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Speaker 3: wanted to have extended blessings on it. I have found

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Speaker 3: that that can be very difficult too for folks, because

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Speaker 3: a lot of people want help in this area. But

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Speaker 3: the churches aren't always the mainstream churches, I should say,

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Speaker 3: aren't always willing to provide it. You can often find

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Speaker 3: it from evangelicals, they may be a little too eager.

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Speaker 3: I think you can sometimes find it from some well

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Speaker 3: intended therapists or new age folks who might be a

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Speaker 3: little too eager. But it's really important that people have

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Speaker 3: a good understanding of psychology and ritual and theology when

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Speaker 3: they engage in these kinds of practices to exercise or

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Speaker 3: help someone remove these unwanted spiritual influences.

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Speaker 2: Did the exorcism seem to be successful, mark when you witnessed.

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Speaker 3: It, only in the sense that it's a temporary reprieve.

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Speaker 3: The process goes on and on and on for a

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Speaker 3: lengthy period of time, and usually the final success, if

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Speaker 3: you will, took about a year and a half later.

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Speaker 3: That yeah, And it was a lot of back and forth.

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Speaker 3: And I'm thinking in particular of one young fellow who,

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Speaker 3: in order to work with him, he was having very

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Speaker 3: intrusive visionary experiences and they were quite stunning. There was

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Speaker 3: a little bit of history of that in the family,

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Speaker 3: but there were other factors involved in terms of suicides

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Speaker 3: and things of that nature. But what we had him do,

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Speaker 3: along with his regular therapist, is engaged in different metap

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Speaker 3: and meditation practices to get a better understanding control over

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Speaker 3: his own mind and solely ease up on a lot

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Speaker 3: of the medication that he was taking. And the medication

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Speaker 3: was prescribed by the way, so it took a process

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Speaker 3: of getting into better understand and be comfortable what was

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Speaker 3: going on in his mind and at the same time

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Speaker 3: having that therapeutic process. But the counselor who I spoke

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Speaker 3: with at the time at length in the family, they

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Speaker 3: were quite convinced that there was something other that was

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Speaker 3: kind of attached to the family at that time and

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Speaker 3: trying to influence it. And that's typically what I've encountered.

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Speaker 3: That's my typical experience, is something trying to something to

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Speaker 3: work its way in. It's mostly on that obsession level.

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Speaker 2: What is it mark about somebody putting their guard down

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Speaker 2: that allows a demonic force or some entity to be

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Speaker 2: able to do what it does.

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Speaker 3: You know, people just and they get very emotionally upset

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Speaker 3: about things and they lose hope, they lose a sense

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Speaker 3: of meaning, they lose a sense of purpose, and they

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Speaker 3: look for excitement and meaning and things that are a

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Speaker 3: distraction from understanding reality as it is. And it's just

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Speaker 3: that kind of boredom. What's the saying bored him is

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Speaker 3: the devil's playground. It's kind of like that. It's not

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Speaker 3: a lot more complex than that. I mean, you could

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Speaker 3: see people who start with that. They like to gamble,

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Speaker 3: and it starts that small and next thing, you know,

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Speaker 3: they're putting the house up, or you have like Big

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Speaker 3: Van Dyke said, you know, he was an alcoholic and

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Speaker 3: he said it started by solely just going out with friends.

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Speaker 3: The next thing, well, he was having trouble controlling it.

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Speaker 3: So you never know what the slippery slope is going

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Speaker 3: to be. But if you know yourself and you're comfortable

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Speaker 3: with who you are, you're not going to side that

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Speaker 3: far down it. You're going to know and to stop.

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Speaker 3: So that's where spiritual practice is important, to have some

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Speaker 3: ethical guidelines for yourself that you're just really comfortable with

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Speaker 3: and that you know, Okay, this is enough, I'm good here,

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Speaker 3: I don't have to go any further.

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Speaker 2: It seems like these demons, though, seem to be all

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Speaker 2: around us all the time.

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Speaker 3: Well that's part of the joke. I mean, if you

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Speaker 3: could really sit where we're surrounded by a host of

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Speaker 3: invisible intelligences, and if we could really see how crowd

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Speaker 3: of the room is, we panic. But at the same

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Speaker 3: time we're surrounded by a host of positive influences too.

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Speaker 3: It's what we tune ourselves into, it's what we direct

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Speaker 3: our consciousness to. It's what we direct our awareness to.

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Speaker 3: So when we focus so much on the negative. That's

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Speaker 3: what we slowly become more and more aware of, and

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Speaker 3: it just it breaks us down over time. So people, places,

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Speaker 3: and things. Who are the people you hang out with?

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Speaker 3: I mean, you're going to be like the folks that

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Speaker 3: you spend the five people you spend the most time with.

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Speaker 3: Where do you like to go? You know, some places

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Speaker 3: they're just contagious. I remember going through a spiritualist camp

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Speaker 3: in upstate New York, and again it was like driving

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Speaker 3: through cobwebs. I'd washed my car down and took a

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Speaker 3: shower after I left. And we've all had that experience

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Speaker 3: at least once in life. In something, we just need

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Speaker 3: to pay attention to it and then find the other.

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Speaker 3: What are the things that excite us for the good?

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Speaker 3: What are the things that encourage us and expand us.

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Speaker 3: What are the things that bring us happiness and joy

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Speaker 3: and make us valuable to the community and to others.

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Speaker 2: Of the twenty song books that you've written, at least

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Speaker 2: two dozen, which one is your favorite?

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Speaker 3: My favorite is Between the Gates because that is just

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Speaker 3: a really nice and user friendly broach for folks to

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Speaker 3: understand this continuity of consciousness and why meditation and reflection

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Speaker 3: is important. How to then move that into what we

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Speaker 3: would call out of body experiences or astral projection, and

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Speaker 3: why that matters in terms of continuity of consciousness or

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Speaker 3: after life survival.

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Speaker 2: Has it been six years since you were last on

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Speaker 2: the show? Has it been that long?

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Speaker 3: Yes, it has, But you know, I've been out with

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Speaker 3: you several times in boulders, so we've seen each other recently. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, you did a great job for us on Beyond Belief.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you.

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Speaker 2: It is truly remarkable. Let's talk about spirituality for a moment.

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Speaker 2: There is a huge difference between being ultra religious and spiritual,

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Speaker 2: don't you think, Oh definitely.

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Speaker 3: You know, when we think about religious and I think

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Speaker 3: ultra religious will focus on that, it tends to be

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Speaker 3: taking a religious idea entification and making that your identity.

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Speaker 3: You know, I am this, you know, and I am orthodox, this,

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Speaker 3: I am fundamentalist, this, I am that. Spirituality, of course,

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Speaker 3: is maybe taking that identity and trying to experience it

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Speaker 3: more personally, maybe even to the point where that identity

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter anymore. What is my personal experience of my

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Speaker 3: fundamental nature? And what is my personal experience we'll say

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Speaker 3: of the invisible and the divine.

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Speaker 2: Do you think most people need spirituality in their life.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and it's going to be probably a little bit

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Speaker 3: different for everyone, depending upon their constitution, their makeup. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you look at Vivicanana his book you know, the

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Speaker 3: Yogas and other works, he talks about four different types

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Speaker 3: of yoga. You know, there's a devotional practice. Some people

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Speaker 3: are really very good at that. There's a more mental practice,

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Speaker 3: you know, and the meditative practices. Some are better that.

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Speaker 3: Some are very good at kind of a spiritual study

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Speaker 3: where they really observe spiritual ideas through reading and contemplation.

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Speaker 3: Some are good at that and as very action oriented.

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Speaker 3: They like to do things for the benefit of others,

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Speaker 3: but doing it understanding that this is for their idea

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Speaker 3: of what constitutes the divinity the venue for themselves, and

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Speaker 3: that's a karmiogre. So there's a variety of different ways

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Speaker 3: to become spiritual and to involve that in our lives,

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Speaker 3: and some people benefit from just one, others have a

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Speaker 3: combination of these and other methods.

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Speaker 2: How do you think our ancients understood this? Because they did,

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Speaker 2: and they did it in a great way.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's a term that we occasionally hear called traditionalism,

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Speaker 3: and that's the philosophical view that many people don't really understand. Well,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't mean to go back to the past and

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Speaker 3: try and bring that forward, but it's to look at

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Speaker 3: the past and the things that worked, and within that view,

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Speaker 3: the thing that makes something work is a connection to

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Speaker 3: the transcendent. So if we as an individual, we as

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Speaker 3: a family, we as a community, we as a society

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Speaker 3: culture are looking at what we do and trying to

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Speaker 3: have it connected to the transcendent on some level, that

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Speaker 3: would be what the classics, that would be what we

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Speaker 3: say the ancient view, particularly things like ancient Egypt that

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Speaker 3: was well known, and even Rome, even though Rome was

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Speaker 3: a bit from our view, very materialistic, they did understand this.

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Speaker 2: If a person is brought up without spirituality, without it,

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Speaker 2: what do you think happens to them? How does that

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Speaker 2: shape their personal.

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Speaker 3: Well that's a tough one because you know, we're all

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Speaker 3: familiar with some people who we would say are they're

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Speaker 3: decent people, we might even call them good, who are

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Speaker 3: atheists they don't really have a spiritual view. But generally speaking,

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Speaker 3: that's not tested under extreme circumstances either from what we

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Speaker 3: know so if someone doesn't have a sense of when

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Speaker 3: we say spirituality, we're saying survival after death, which means

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Speaker 3: being accountable for our actions. That's really what we're saying. I,

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Speaker 3: in some way will be held accountable for my actions,

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Speaker 3: whether it be in we'll take the Christian view heaven

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Speaker 3: and hell or some other view of karma and reincarnation,

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Speaker 3: I will be held accountable for what I do. Without that,

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Speaker 3: it can be very difficult for people to make difficult

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Speaker 3: choices that aren't exclusively self serving.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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