WEBVTT - Part One: The History of American Masculinity Grifters

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<v Speaker 1>Also media What Mendez My Brothers. I'm Robert Evans, the

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<v Speaker 1>host of Behind the Bastards, a podcast where every week

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<v Speaker 1>I sit down with Miles Gray and go sitting Mendez

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<v Speaker 1>brother show.

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<v Speaker 2>How are we feeling?

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<v Speaker 1>A one? That one all hot for each other one,

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<v Speaker 1>the one where Javier Bardem is their dad.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love that.

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<v Speaker 1>I know there's a lot of reasons to have issue

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<v Speaker 1>with that. I know the brothers have have taken issue

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<v Speaker 1>with that show's depiction. I will say I think it

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<v Speaker 1>fundamentally shows the killing as justified. Because if I walked

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<v Speaker 1>into a house, any house I just rewatched No Country

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<v Speaker 1>for Old Men and saw Javier Bardem there, I'm opening fire,

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<v Speaker 1>you know. Yeah, Like it's not even about the other stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just about like that, Like he's terrifying.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly if I would, I could go to a fucking

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<v Speaker 2>like fundraise charity fundraiser for orphaned children, and if he

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<v Speaker 2>was hosting, I'd be like, dude, lighting him up. I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>I cannot sheathe my blade until it has spilled.

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<v Speaker 1>He could have a cattle boat gun anywhere anywhere, and

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<v Speaker 1>even if you handcuffed that son of a bit, he

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<v Speaker 1>could get you.

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<v Speaker 2>No he's freaky. He's freaky, he's terrifying. He's a terrifying man.

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<v Speaker 3>He was in that movie Vicky Christina Barcelona, and he's supposed.

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<v Speaker 1>To say he that he was. He was charming in

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<v Speaker 1>that movie by a pedophile.

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<v Speaker 2>Supposed to be.

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<v Speaker 3>But I was like, no.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, it's a deticted by Woody Allen. Yeah, yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 2>stumbling blocks detected.

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<v Speaker 1>No.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>You know who's not terrifying or who is terrifying but

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<v Speaker 1>terrifyingly talented is Miles Gray, who already introduced I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know why I'm doing. How are you doing today, Miles?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm great, Robert, how are you doing?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm doing good? Miles, you're a maafy.

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<v Speaker 2>I got to ask you the Lakers, are you feeling good?

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<v Speaker 2>Based on what JJ Reddick the same?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I really appreciate that he's feeling so confident,

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<v Speaker 3>but I'm not. I'm not I'm not feeling I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>feeling discouraged.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what we do. That's what we do is like

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<v Speaker 2>your fans. Okay, sorry I had to just interject that famously.

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<v Speaker 2>All men.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, Miles, you're a man, a man, manly a man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So there. A lot of us are men, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think if you're a man whose brain is not putting,

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<v Speaker 1>you've probably had the feeling often in the last like

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<v Speaker 1>five or six years where you'll like see something about

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<v Speaker 1>young people and like what influencers your popular today, like

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Tate, and go like.

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<v Speaker 2>What the fuck's happening with dudes? Right? What's going on?

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<v Speaker 2>Something awry?

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<v Speaker 1>And this this feeling is kind of uh exacerbated by

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that I feel like every year or so,

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<v Speaker 1>each of the big publications The Atlantic, the Washington Post,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the New York Times and New York Times

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<v Speaker 1>magazine will do like a masculinity and crisis article right

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<v Speaker 1>where they're they're trying to talk about, like why are

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<v Speaker 1>men getting more conservative?

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<v Speaker 2>What's wrong with young men?

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<v Speaker 4>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to look into that, and specifically I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to look into like the history of moral panics over

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<v Speaker 1>masculinity in the United States, because this is a spoiler,

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<v Speaker 1>about every thirty years, all of the columnists in the

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<v Speaker 1>country get convinced that masculinity is in crisis. And this

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<v Speaker 1>has been happening for roughly one hundred and twenty years.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh so it's the same as like nobody wants to

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<v Speaker 2>work these Yes, yes.

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<v Speaker 1>This is exactly that kind of thing. There's some slight

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<v Speaker 1>changes in how it gets expressed based on the time,

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<v Speaker 1>but what hasn't changed is that every time there's a

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<v Speaker 1>crisis of masculinity, a crop of grifters rises up to

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<v Speaker 1>make a bunch of money off of the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>men don't feel good about being men anymore. So we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk about that this week. This is a

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<v Speaker 1>week where we talk about the man fluencers, a word

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to use a lot, even though no one

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<v Speaker 1>likes it. Nobody feels good about the term manfluencer. We

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<v Speaker 1>all kind of yeah, how do you feel about manfluencers?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't care the episode started.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean fine. I look, I don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk about every time I agree to

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<v Speaker 2>be on the show. So I'm just glad it's something

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<v Speaker 2>that I've personally invested a lot of my own money,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I feel like maybe I can bring a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit of balance to this conversation, just like you, Robert,

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<v Speaker 2>just tear down the whole fucking movement. Bro.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that you've admitted you never read our emails about

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<v Speaker 1>the subject, I'm excited to have you on For our

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<v Speaker 1>new episode, Miles reads a series of actionable threats that

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<v Speaker 1>elected officials.

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<v Speaker 2>Dear Senator Schumer, whoa, what's this one about?

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, Miles, you came with his address. I didn't even

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<v Speaker 1>have that in a script.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that. Somebody's just asked me to look

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<v Speaker 2>up a name.

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<v Speaker 1>We all love Chuck Schumer. I assume or love you anyway. Cold, open, done,

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<v Speaker 1>We're back, We're hot now open has begun.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, I say top, I'm concerned about men, like.

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<v Speaker 1>Concerned about men. We're all concerned about men.

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<v Speaker 3>Just to say, because men are concerning.

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<v Speaker 2>We are. Yeah, they are my sister. Yeah, I do.

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<v Speaker 1>Feel Miles, you and I are you?

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<v Speaker 2>When were you born? Oh? Wow? You never ask You

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<v Speaker 2>never ask a bro his age, dude, first rule of

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<v Speaker 2>man food.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Miles, your face doesn't show it, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the day, the exact same birthday. It's Harry. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I just turned forty years old. Oh really, I wouldn't guess.

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<v Speaker 3>I literally remember that you are his birthday twin every time,

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<v Speaker 3>every time.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything.

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<v Speaker 2>That's because a lot. I really think.

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<v Speaker 1>I because I graduated in two thousand and six from

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<v Speaker 1>high school, and I think I was in a sweet

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<v Speaker 1>spot that like only lasted for a couple of years

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<v Speaker 1>where we I think very briefly really just for the

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<v Speaker 1>last two years of high school, things kind of were

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<v Speaker 1>very healthy with young men compare compared to how they

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<v Speaker 1>were before and after. There was a switchover that happened

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<v Speaker 1>between junior high and senior high for me, where when

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<v Speaker 1>I was in middle school. In junior high, like I

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<v Speaker 1>would get bullied a bunch for being the kid who

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<v Speaker 1>had like D and D books or whatever, or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I played Warhammer and shit, like I got.

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<v Speaker 2>Hating Warhamer Warhammer figure fifteen fifteen.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, like that didn't go well for me. And

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<v Speaker 1>then when I was in my junior year, World of

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<v Speaker 1>Warcraft came out and suddenly all of that stopped. And

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<v Speaker 1>it was right at the same time that like people

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<v Speaker 1>started getting a little less shitty and then suddenly a

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<v Speaker 1>lot less shitty towards like queer kids in school. There

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<v Speaker 1>was this like brief period where all of the trends

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<v Speaker 1>for and I think I was I was kind of

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<v Speaker 1>right on the cusp of it because I just noticed

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<v Speaker 1>that all of the weird kids stopped getting as much shit.

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<v Speaker 1>When I was about sixteen years old. It doesn't seem

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<v Speaker 1>like that lasted very long.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I remember

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<v Speaker 2>in high school we used to we used to give

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<v Speaker 2>swirlies to the D and D kids.

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<v Speaker 1>I got, I've got some swirlies until I until I

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<v Speaker 1>had a growth spur at around age fourteen, and then

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<v Speaker 1>suddenly like I was too big for swearing.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I got a lot of terrible eye infections

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<v Speaker 2>as a result of those rough days day in my

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<v Speaker 2>early years. But I think I know you mean because too,

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<v Speaker 2>like there was also like for my age, it was

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<v Speaker 2>like Eminem was also like the guy who was rapping

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<v Speaker 2>and you were just hurling the f for it around

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<v Speaker 2>like with abandoned.

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<v Speaker 1>We let him and m get away with a lot

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<v Speaker 1>a lot folks. I threw me a couple of his

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<v Speaker 1>songs the other day and I was.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, Jesus Christy, what wow, this man was out of pocket.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but that was the thing you

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<v Speaker 2>get like, you know, but if you're like a black

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<v Speaker 2>guy doing that, then they'll be like, we need to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about censoring music. But then you're not liked. Eminem, Mom,

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<v Speaker 2>lovem mom, Eminem Yo. My mom didn't But my mom

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<v Speaker 2>also didn't. I don't. I don't think my mom knew

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<v Speaker 2>who Eminem was probably until eight mile and she's like

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<v Speaker 2>the white guy from the rapping movie. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyway, so Miles, a few days before I sat down

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<v Speaker 1>to write these episodes of videos sarted going viral. And

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<v Speaker 1>this is not the first time I've seen this video

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<v Speaker 1>go viral. It's happened at least once more like a

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<v Speaker 1>year or so earlier. But it shows a you may

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<v Speaker 1>have seen it. It shows a group of soggy men

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<v Speaker 1>in their late twenties to early thirties standing by the

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<v Speaker 1>ocean holding sledgehammers awkwardly like, while a dude who appears

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<v Speaker 1>to be about twenty percent trendblone acetate and creatine by

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<v Speaker 1>body weight curls abuse at them, And I'm gonna I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to show you a segment of that clip, and

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<v Speaker 1>before I do, you should know that each of the

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<v Speaker 1>wet dudes getting yelled at paid twelve thousand dollars for

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<v Speaker 1>a three day course. So everyone's standing there getting screamed

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<v Speaker 1>at has settled out twelve grand for the experience.

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<v Speaker 4>You don't fucking deserve to be here, fucking quick, you

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<v Speaker 4>piece of shit. I want to be a better man.

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<v Speaker 4>I want to be a better husband, I want to

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<v Speaker 4>be a better father. I want to be a better

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<v Speaker 4>You fucking whiney piece of shit. None of you deserve

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<v Speaker 4>to be here by move with a purpose belly.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah.

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<v Speaker 3>But that's embarrassing.

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<v Speaker 2>That's that's just embarrassing. That's just embarrassing. These guys can't

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<v Speaker 2>even like lift the sledgehammers and they're just no, please

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<v Speaker 2>abuse me.

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<v Speaker 1>No, Sophie, I do think you should click the first

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<v Speaker 1>link that I gave you and show that video too,

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<v Speaker 1>now that now that we've seen the first one, because

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<v Speaker 1>these are all fun.

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<v Speaker 3>So for the first one that I had kep the

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<v Speaker 3>first time, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I just I just love watching then pay

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<v Speaker 1>money to get screamed at and know that like every

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<v Speaker 1>dom that I know would charge a lot less and

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<v Speaker 1>then you'd be with the pretty lady exactly. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>a much better deal.

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<v Speaker 2>And someone who smells good and takes seriously right.

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<v Speaker 3>Enjoy this, and like, if you know, if you know

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<v Speaker 3>any of these guys, please tell them to see their dermatologists,

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<v Speaker 3>because I see a lot of.

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<v Speaker 2>One man.

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<v Speaker 1>Not incredible way to spend twelve thousand dollars the way that.

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<v Speaker 3>They understood when he was like, belly, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can buy if you're this kind of guy.

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<v Speaker 1>For one thing, the very nicest firearms that exist in

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<v Speaker 1>the country, you can all buy for less than twelve

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<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars. Truly, you can buy a pretty good Toyota

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<v Speaker 1>Prius for twelve thousand dollars. You can just have twelve

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<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars and not get screamed at for twelve thousand dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>There's so much you can do with twelve thousand dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>Put that in a high yield savings account, right, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>Put it under your bed, any anything, but spend it

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<v Speaker 1>to get screamed at.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, by some guy who's fucking dad failed him. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>let's just repeat the cycle together, guys. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, this is a video from the Modern Day Night Project,

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<v Speaker 1>which exists take upper middle classmen who have money but

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<v Speaker 1>no sense of self worth and put them through an intense, unpleasant,

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<v Speaker 1>but also short and manageable experience so they feel like

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<v Speaker 1>real men. Their website even includes a very depressing banner

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<v Speaker 1>ad right at the top that says attention, The Modern

0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Day Night Project is only for entrepreneurs, executives, and leaders. Wow,

0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.319
<v Speaker 1>your family deserves the best version of you as a leader,

0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:28.720
<v Speaker 1>husband and father. Your family also deserves twelve thousand dollars.

0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:30.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, exactly.

0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.679
<v Speaker 1>Now, this is all This whole course is based on

0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.439
<v Speaker 1>a kind of the public understanding of something called Hell

0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.040
<v Speaker 1>Week that the Navy Seals do, which basically, if you're

0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.360
<v Speaker 1>going to become a Navy Seal, there's a part of

0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:45.640
<v Speaker 1>the training that's a week where you spend all of

0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:49.360
<v Speaker 1>your time doing very miserable, tortuous exercises generally in and

0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.600
<v Speaker 1>around the ocean and like not really sleeping, and it sucks.

0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.000
<v Speaker 1>But it's also part of like job training, right, Like

0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.480
<v Speaker 1>you are training to do a job that you will

0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.319
<v Speaker 1>be paid four as opposed to paying twelve thousand dollars.

0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:04.640
<v Speaker 1>And it's also I think there's a lot you could

0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.040
<v Speaker 1>one can debate is Hell Week really necessary for training

0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:11.520
<v Speaker 1>Navy Seals. What you can't debate is that, like Navy

0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.920
<v Speaker 1>Seals go on to do a thing as a result

0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 1>of this experience, as opposed to nothing at all.

0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.320
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, you get to fight in America's imperial fighting forces.

0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:26.000
<v Speaker 2>This one you just go and just fucking scream at

0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:26.800
<v Speaker 2>your partner.

0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and there's this there's this misunderstanding too, and it's

0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:32.760
<v Speaker 1>this is we get the same thing with like boot camp,

0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.240
<v Speaker 1>right where people focus on like shit they saw in

0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.559
<v Speaker 1>Full Metal Jacket, you know, the drill sergeant screaming these

0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.800
<v Speaker 1>creative insults at you, all the like mental and physical abuse,

0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.760
<v Speaker 1>and they're like, wow, that's what makes soldiers and ignore

0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:46.840
<v Speaker 1>the fact that, like both for Navy Seals and for

0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:50.080
<v Speaker 1>regular soldiers, the getting yelled at is a small part

0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.000
<v Speaker 1>of like months and admit, in the case of the

0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.439
<v Speaker 1>Navy Seals, like literally years of like learning technical stuff

0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.480
<v Speaker 1>like how to use explosives, how to use firearms in

0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 1>different ways, how to do all of the weird boat

0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:01.760
<v Speaker 1>shit that you have to do as.

0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:03.559
<v Speaker 2>A name you me, and the like.

0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.880
<v Speaker 1>There's a bunch of actual technical training that is a

0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.480
<v Speaker 1>much bigger part of the whole experience than getting screened at.

0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 1>And then when you finish getting trained, you get to

0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 1>go do that job instead of going back to selling

0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.680
<v Speaker 1>used cars and encino. Now, I don't think there's a

0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 1>big point in me critiquing these places on like merit though,

0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.800
<v Speaker 1>because the Modern Day Night Project and so many other

0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.240
<v Speaker 1>boot camp style programs for adult men are part of

0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.520
<v Speaker 1>a network of what you can call manfluencer programs, all

0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:36.560
<v Speaker 1>of which capitalize on the feelings of inadequacy and weakness,

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.440
<v Speaker 1>but seem to be endemic among mostly white dudes who

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.360
<v Speaker 1>have more money than self confidence. When you look at

0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.280
<v Speaker 1>the marketing materials around all of the products in this category,

0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.040
<v Speaker 1>you see a couple of things over and over again.

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Modern society has made it nearly impossible to be masculine,

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.160
<v Speaker 1>and this is literally killing men. That's how this is

0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:57.479
<v Speaker 1>all framed. And here's a clip from their big advertisement

0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.960
<v Speaker 1>video on their website that honestly looks like it was

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.199
<v Speaker 1>coded in two thousand and eight. It looks like the

0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:02.960
<v Speaker 1>Dredge Report.

0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:08.080
<v Speaker 5>It's like administering chemotherapy to a cancerous area of the body,

0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.360
<v Speaker 5>and it's going to unearth and expose who you are.

0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.720
<v Speaker 5>The physical challenging that you go through is purpose driven.

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.560
<v Speaker 5>Every single evolution is purpose driven. Every single evolution creates

0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:23.720
<v Speaker 5>opportunity for four things to lead, to show emotional discipline,

0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:25.160
<v Speaker 5>to communicate, and.

0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:25.880
<v Speaker 2>To problem solve.

0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.160
<v Speaker 5>So the project is here for a purpose to help

0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.560
<v Speaker 5>you become the man you know in your deepest heart

0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:34.720
<v Speaker 5>that you're meant to be. And all we're going to do,

0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.479
<v Speaker 5>is instructors over the next seventy five hours, is administer

0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.840
<v Speaker 5>the project no different than a doctor would administer chemotherapy

0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:42.080
<v Speaker 5>to a cancerous body part.

0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:44.160
<v Speaker 2>This is so fucking stupid, dude.

0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah the music though.

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I casu.

0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:52.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my parents both died due to complications from chemo.

0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.560
<v Speaker 1>So for one thing, Like, I don't know, bro, Chemo's

0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 1>not really like, are these guys in such a Are

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.600
<v Speaker 1>these guys admitting that by doing this, they're in such

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.880
<v Speaker 1>a desperate strait that they will literally die if a

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.280
<v Speaker 1>man doesn't scream at them on a beach. Because I

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.480
<v Speaker 1>don't think that's their issue. I think their issue is

0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.840
<v Speaker 1>they didn't do a job that led to them shooting people.

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.280
<v Speaker 1>And because our media entirely almost because like a lot

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.520
<v Speaker 1>of media, particularly the media guys like this consume, entirely

0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:20.760
<v Speaker 1>focuses on violets as like a way to prove your masculinity,

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 1>they have no way to feel like they're men.

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:25.560
<v Speaker 2>Right. Violence is a love language. Actually is what we

0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:27.720
<v Speaker 2>want to give the men who are in dire need

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 2>of chemo?

0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or as I say, fo, yeah, amazing stuff. You

0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.560
<v Speaker 1>could you would do a much better job by just

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 1>giving them chemo. Right, that's a real near death experience.

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.400
<v Speaker 2>Seriously, and even like the irony too of like chemo

0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.120
<v Speaker 2>like decades ago, where they're like, this might this radiation

0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.520
<v Speaker 2>might come boomerang back around in a few decades and

0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:53.360
<v Speaker 2>cause like serious illness again, other ganzer, this could be Also, yeah,

0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.360
<v Speaker 2>it's like, yeah, it might help now, or maybe you're

0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.200
<v Speaker 2>going to raise somebody who's going to turn to a

0:15:58.200 --> 0:15:59.040
<v Speaker 2>mass murder. I don't know what.

0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, non zero number of these guys took their sons

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:03.640
<v Speaker 1>out to the beach the next week and made them

0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.480
<v Speaker 1>hold a sledgehammer while they screamed down right right, here's

0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.120
<v Speaker 1>another segment from that video.

0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:16.600
<v Speaker 5>The blood, so people spilled together who go through adversity together,

0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.480
<v Speaker 5>is thicker, creates a bigger bond, a deeper bond than

0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.760
<v Speaker 5>the water of the womb, meaning people who have shared

0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.960
<v Speaker 5>the same womb. The blood of the covenant is thicker

0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:26.920
<v Speaker 5>than the water of the womb.

0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Cool. Now, what what the fuck?

0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:31.960
<v Speaker 3>Man? What a cool?

0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:32.480
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.080
<v Speaker 2>This is a covenant? Right? Do any of these men

0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 2>even understand the gestational process either? They're like, there's it's

0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.040
<v Speaker 2>water womb? Was that? What was that part? Again?

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 1>This is we're calling this a covenant because everyone paid

0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.440
<v Speaker 1>twelve grand to get yelled at on the beach together.

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:51.520
<v Speaker 1>That's a fucking covenant.

0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Honestly, you better god for twelve grand. They better be

0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 2>calling it a fucking covenant. Yeah, if it's just like

0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.560
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of cool guys and hanging out getting pissed

0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>on and then and then it ain't. It doesn't sound

0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:03.760
<v Speaker 2>as good. It's funny.

0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously what they're playing with here is something

0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.000
<v Speaker 1>very real, which is that, like, when you experience actual

0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.520
<v Speaker 1>trauma and adversity with a group of people, it can

0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.439
<v Speaker 1>in fact bond you to them, right, the idea of

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.920
<v Speaker 1>having and there's it's very attractive to a lot of

0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:20.320
<v Speaker 1>them in this idea that like I can go through

0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.760
<v Speaker 1>this very manageable version of the experience. That it is

0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.879
<v Speaker 1>not so like actually joining the military and fighting is

0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.760
<v Speaker 1>not a manageable experience, which is why so many people

0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.200
<v Speaker 1>who do it wind up killing themselves later, right.

0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.840
<v Speaker 2>Sure, or coming back and being like, do not do that.

0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:36.040
<v Speaker 2>Don't do that?

0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, don't not man it, Like whatever you want to

0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:38.960
<v Speaker 1>call it, it's not.

0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.880
<v Speaker 2>War, and it's not fucking worth it.

0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.640
<v Speaker 1>It is a chaotic and dangerous thing to do, right,

0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.640
<v Speaker 1>as opposed to this, which is not really all that dangerous.

0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.520
<v Speaker 1>And then the danger of a guy who is taking

0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.320
<v Speaker 1>like black market fucking gear having his heart explode as

0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.000
<v Speaker 1>he does fucking sledgehammer push.

0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Ups or whatever.

0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 1>Right, but this idea that like, you can do this

0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:02.440
<v Speaker 1>very manageable thing that really just costs money and takes

0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.560
<v Speaker 1>three days. And then there's this large, you hope, influential

0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.400
<v Speaker 1>group of men that you share an intense bond with, right,

0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.800
<v Speaker 1>that is attractive to a kind of guy, a fairly

0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.080
<v Speaker 1>normal kind of guy today, because it's very normal for

0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.280
<v Speaker 1>men today to be overwhelmingly lonely. A study by the

0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Survey Center on American Life in twenty twenty one found

0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.879
<v Speaker 1>that one in five single American men report having no

0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.520
<v Speaker 1>close friends. And that's a catastrophe that really is like

0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:30.680
<v Speaker 1>an existential threat because when you have young men who

0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.240
<v Speaker 1>are miserable, it's very easy to convince those young men

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.159
<v Speaker 1>to do terrible things. This has been a problem for

0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:36.160
<v Speaker 1>all of human history.

0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.119
<v Speaker 2>See the cycle happen a lot of time. Yeah, like

0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.080
<v Speaker 2>you got bored young men or people who have taken

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.240
<v Speaker 2>up arms previously and have nothing to do, and like Hey,

0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.120
<v Speaker 2>what do you guys, What are you guys up to? Yeah?

0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Nothing, miserable and alone paying twelve grand to get screamed

0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:49.639
<v Speaker 1>at on the beach?

0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:56.280
<v Speaker 2>A yeah, twelve four So what my math? Three four

0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.640
<v Speaker 2>grand a day four granted to day something like yell

0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:00.879
<v Speaker 2>dad on the beach and you I think you're entering

0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.920
<v Speaker 2>some fucking covenant, yeah, with other people who have the

0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:08.120
<v Speaker 2>same terrible problem solving skills you do, or you thought

0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.400
<v Speaker 2>this was the way out of whatever your problems were,

0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:12.879
<v Speaker 2>and then you think you're gonna be able to open

0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:14.800
<v Speaker 2>up to the guy who said you're a piece of

0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.320
<v Speaker 2>shit over and over when you have any kind of

0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 2>problem that might need any kind of nuanced advice. Yes, yes, yes,

0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.600
<v Speaker 2>sign me up. Yeah, someone lend me twelve grand. Yeah.

0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.199
<v Speaker 1>Now, there's a very good vice article on these camps

0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:29.840
<v Speaker 1>and on the Modern Day Night Project in particular by

0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.320
<v Speaker 1>Brendan Burrs. It does pretty good job of describing some

0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.600
<v Speaker 1>of the sorts of guys who find programs like this

0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:37.840
<v Speaker 1>appealing and why I'm going to quote from that now.

0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.000
<v Speaker 1>The first time that victrm Diel, a thirty nine year

0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.360
<v Speaker 1>old real estate agent in recent divorce, met bedros Kluian

0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.480
<v Speaker 1>he was at a three day business workshop hosted by Coluian.

0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.720
<v Speaker 1>Seeing Kluean's tattooed sleeve, his square set jaw, listening to

0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.360
<v Speaker 1>his gruff, gravelly voice, dial thought, this is a man

0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.679
<v Speaker 1>I want to be like. His thoughts kept tumbling. Am

0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.919
<v Speaker 1>my man, crushing crushing this dude? Holy shit. This is

0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.320
<v Speaker 1>a good example of what you call the shallow appeal

0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.080
<v Speaker 1>of this program and the men who run it. Right,

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:05.480
<v Speaker 1>these guys all look like the Special Forces dudes I

0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.880
<v Speaker 1>watch in movies. I wish I was that kind of guy,

0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:10.920
<v Speaker 1>because I've kind of been taught that that's the only

0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.920
<v Speaker 1>way to be that has any value now. Feeling that way,

0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:16.199
<v Speaker 1>it's not something to be proud of, but I wouldn't

0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.400
<v Speaker 1>say it's shameful. It's extremely common. Most men go through

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.959
<v Speaker 1>a period of time where they're like, I either should

0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.000
<v Speaker 1>try to find a way to go fight or I

0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.399
<v Speaker 1>wish I had right. That's not an uncommon experience for men,

0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 1>And there's a lot to be said about the idea

0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.480
<v Speaker 1>that like it's probably healthy. As a society, you have

0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:39.159
<v Speaker 1>various rituals that are widely recognized that like signify the

0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:43.199
<v Speaker 1>passage into adulthood, that like societies that build something like

0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.280
<v Speaker 1>that in avoid some problems that we have in our society.

0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:49.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm not against that idea. I just think you probably

0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.080
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't have to pay twelve grand for the privilege ye know.

0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, barrier to entry.

0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:59.959
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, now. Brindan writes about another attendee, Keith Schmidt,

0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.720
<v Speaker 1>a forty nine year old veteran and firefighter who was

0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:03.360
<v Speaker 1>struggling with.

0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:04.760
<v Speaker 2>Mental health issues. Quote.

0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:07.920
<v Speaker 1>He had his demons childhood trauma full of sexual, physical

0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.760
<v Speaker 1>and mental abuse, plus PTSD from serving in the military.

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.280
<v Speaker 1>But he'd shoved that crap down somewhere deep, shut off

0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:15.480
<v Speaker 1>from the rest of him, because, as he'd always been taught,

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.199
<v Speaker 1>that's what a man does. A man doesn't cry, a

0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.959
<v Speaker 1>man compartmentalizes. If a man accessed any emotion, it was anger,

0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>a fuel Schmidt knew too well. He first described its

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:27.520
<v Speaker 1>power when his grade school teacher, Miss McGrath, told him

0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:29.359
<v Speaker 1>one day that he wouldn't amount to anything more than

0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.560
<v Speaker 1>a garbage man. Fuck you, he responded, He'd get back

0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:34.840
<v Speaker 1>at Miss mcgraf, his mother who belittled and hit him,

0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.240
<v Speaker 1>the mentor who molested him. He'd get back at all

0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.560
<v Speaker 1>them with the sweet revenge of success, and like that

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:43.880
<v Speaker 1>is so sad, because that is a man in desperate

0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:47.960
<v Speaker 1>need of like mental health care that twelve grand could

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:48.840
<v Speaker 1>provide a lot of them.

0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh by a lot of good therapy for twelve thousand

0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:55.119
<v Speaker 2>gree for four grand one day, one day's cost of

0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.520
<v Speaker 2>that scream ode camp. Did you put that into therapy? Yeah?

0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:02.879
<v Speaker 1>Shit, he might make progress, right, and Schmid is one

0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.280
<v Speaker 1>of the guys who will claim repeatedly that this program

0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.479
<v Speaker 1>improved his life, maybe even saved it. And who am

0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:09.680
<v Speaker 1>I to argue with him here?

0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Right?

0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.720
<v Speaker 1>There isn't much point anyway, because as silly as these

0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.560
<v Speaker 1>programs and the ones like them are, they're not the

0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:20.199
<v Speaker 1>most poisonous outgrowth of what is an industry devoted entirely

0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.760
<v Speaker 1>to the crisis of American masculinity. Right, Unlike the most

0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:27.040
<v Speaker 1>influential voices in this industry, guys like Andrew Taate Kluean

0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:29.800
<v Speaker 1>isn't tricking guys into an MLM or so far as

0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:32.399
<v Speaker 1>I can tell, ranting about race science and the evils

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.200
<v Speaker 1>of the Nineteenth Amendment. He's just selling them the fantasy

0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:36.880
<v Speaker 1>that the problems are rooted in the fact that their

0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:39.120
<v Speaker 1>lives don't share enough of the aesthetics of an action

0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:41.520
<v Speaker 1>movie from twenty eleven, right.

0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which is funny because you know, the irony to

0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:48.040
<v Speaker 2>me is that this whole obsession with seal boot camp

0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.280
<v Speaker 2>that's from g I Jane, It sure is. That's a

0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.880
<v Speaker 2>lot of a fucking movie where a woman of God

0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:59.960
<v Speaker 2>through that, like Buds training for seals, and that was

0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.040
<v Speaker 2>I think one of the very first mainstream depictions we

0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:05.399
<v Speaker 2>got of what Bud's training looked like for a Navy seals.

0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.720
<v Speaker 2>So it's interesting too that we're also referencing a movie

0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.800
<v Speaker 2>to define masculinity that was about this woman who went

0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:14.560
<v Speaker 2>through it and became a Navy seal. And it's like, yeah, dude,

0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:15.680
<v Speaker 2>like that man, But.

0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:19.000
<v Speaker 1>For us it's so and it's such a Again, I

0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.800
<v Speaker 1>have a lot of friends who served, particularly in like

0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:25.080
<v Speaker 1>the Marine Corps. Probably the closest friend I have who

0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.040
<v Speaker 1>did and who then went on to fight like described

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:29.600
<v Speaker 1>it to me because I asked him about boot camp

0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:31.720
<v Speaker 1>and he like, his description was so very different this

0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:33.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of shit. He was like, Oh, it's a game.

0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.200
<v Speaker 1>It's like a very silly game, and you realize the

0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:38.320
<v Speaker 1>rules of the game early on, and you realize that

0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:40.679
<v Speaker 1>like most of the instructors. The ones who aren't out

0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:42.479
<v Speaker 1>of their mind are playing a game too, and if

0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:44.720
<v Speaker 1>you play along, then like you can get the thing

0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:46.440
<v Speaker 1>that you want out of it, which is being done

0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:48.480
<v Speaker 1>with it, right, That was his attitude. I also have

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:50.600
<v Speaker 1>a friend who shot himself in boot camp, So, like

0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:54.840
<v Speaker 1>boot camp contains, people have wide varieties of reactions to it,

0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:58.000
<v Speaker 1>But just the idea that you would voluntarily pay money

0:23:58.040 --> 0:23:59.960
<v Speaker 1>to have this experience is fucking nuts to me.

0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, I mean it's convenient too to think that,

0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.480
<v Speaker 2>Rather than interrogate your own beliefs or trauma that might

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.280
<v Speaker 2>be informing like where you're at in life, it's just

0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:11.960
<v Speaker 2>easy to be like, yeah, dude, I think I just

0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:14.680
<v Speaker 2>give this maniac twelve grand and twelve thousand dollars and

0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't even get to fire a fucking machine gun. No, no,

0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:20.440
<v Speaker 2>but I can hold a sledgehammer for five minutes above

0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:21.360
<v Speaker 2>my head. Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:23.120
<v Speaker 1>A lot of my friends who went through boot camp

0:24:23.160 --> 0:24:25.640
<v Speaker 1>got to fire an automatic grenade launcher, which is worth

0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:29.840
<v Speaker 1>twelve Now that's that's approaching a twelve thousand dollars experience.

0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:35.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, we got to use a China Lake mar nineteen. Yeah.

0:24:35.560 --> 0:24:37.720
<v Speaker 1>Now, a writer who isn't me, but whose name I

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:40.560
<v Speaker 1>have long since forgotten. MUD's described kind of what we're

0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:44.320
<v Speaker 1>seeing with these camps as cargo cult masculinity. Now, if

0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:46.480
<v Speaker 1>you haven't heard the term cargo cult, there's a couple

0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:48.000
<v Speaker 1>of things that can mean. It's actually a much more

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:51.040
<v Speaker 1>complicated term than it usually gets boiled down to generally

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 1>when people reference it. They're talking about a specific cult

0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:58.000
<v Speaker 1>called the John Froome Colt, which was found, like spotted

0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 1>in a bunch of Melanesian islanders after World War Two.

0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.399
<v Speaker 1>And the gist of what had happened is for years

0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:07.119
<v Speaker 1>during the war they'd been gotten air drops of supplies

0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:09.560
<v Speaker 1>as like soldiers had billeted on the island, and a

0:25:09.600 --> 0:25:11.520
<v Speaker 1>bunch of the shit that was sent to those soldiers,

0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 1>including Western food and technology they hadn't seen before, like

0:25:15.119 --> 0:25:18.320
<v Speaker 1>wound up getting you know, being accessible to the locals

0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:21.600
<v Speaker 1>as well. Right when the US pulled out, some locals

0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.760
<v Speaker 1>engaged in this kind of cultic behavior, trying to emulate

0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:27.680
<v Speaker 1>some of the practices they'd seen soldiers engage in. They'd

0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:30.920
<v Speaker 1>done like parade ground marches with like faked rifles carved

0:25:30.920 --> 0:25:33.359
<v Speaker 1>out of wood. They've ritually used these kind of like

0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:37.080
<v Speaker 1>handwave landing signals and fake control towers and stuff. They'd

0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:39.800
<v Speaker 1>like carved headphones from wood to try to reenact what

0:25:39.840 --> 0:25:42.280
<v Speaker 1>they'd seen the soldiers doing that had brought the planes,

0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:45.040
<v Speaker 1>right because they didn't really understand fully what was happening.

0:25:45.080 --> 0:25:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Because these are people that just had not been a

0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:51.040
<v Speaker 1>part of the technological world prior to World War Two. Right, So,

0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:54.439
<v Speaker 1>cargo cult masculinity is people applying that same kind of

0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:56.840
<v Speaker 1>logic to the idea of being a man. Right, You're

0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:59.360
<v Speaker 1>carving the headphones out of wood to try to pretend

0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.639
<v Speaker 1>like you're in a man tower because you don't understand

0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:03.800
<v Speaker 1>what it actually is that's going. Like you want the

0:26:03.880 --> 0:26:06.479
<v Speaker 1>sleeve tattoos and the beard, and you want to like

0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:08.600
<v Speaker 1>own the gun that you saw in the movie because

0:26:08.600 --> 0:26:10.640
<v Speaker 1>you don't actually understand what it means to be a man.

0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:12.680
<v Speaker 1>There's nothing to it to you, but like these kind

0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:16.840
<v Speaker 1>of signifiers, right. Right, So this week we're going to

0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.000
<v Speaker 1>be talking about the men who have made servicing this

0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:21.400
<v Speaker 1>cargo cult into an industry, and to talk about where

0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:23.600
<v Speaker 1>that industry started, we're going to have to go back

0:26:23.640 --> 0:26:27.080
<v Speaker 1>a century or so to a time when modern masculinity

0:26:27.119 --> 0:26:30.240
<v Speaker 1>gurus assure us men were real men who worked hard,

0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:33.119
<v Speaker 1>didn't complain, avoided seed oils, and went over to Europe

0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:36.600
<v Speaker 1>to fight in World wars every couple of years. Yeah,

0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:39.600
<v Speaker 1>fuck it, we'll be talking about the seed oils guys later. So,

0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:43.520
<v Speaker 1>speaking of seed oils, you know you won't make you

0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:47.719
<v Speaker 1>take a seed oil because seed oils kill your penis.

0:26:48.400 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 3>Uh me.

0:26:51.160 --> 0:27:02.400
<v Speaker 1>Oh, and our advertisers, we're back, We're back. And hey,

0:27:02.880 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 1>if you want to kill your penis, you know, because

0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:07.880
<v Speaker 1>fucking vast deference getting those clipped is expensive, just eat

0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:10.439
<v Speaker 1>some seed oils. I guarantee you can't get someone pregnant

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:12.399
<v Speaker 1>if you eat seed oils. You can show you the

0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:15.639
<v Speaker 1>iHeart Radio Corporation if you get pregnant after eating seed oils.

0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:18.040
<v Speaker 2>That's a promise. You know, that's a ton of rubber

0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:19.760
<v Speaker 2>bands too. You'd probably do it that too.

0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:26.320
<v Speaker 1>You can, in fact do that lot. So the early

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:30.879
<v Speaker 1>nineteen hundreds is like in man Fluencer lingo, like this,

0:27:31.359 --> 0:27:33.200
<v Speaker 1>this is the ideal time to be a man, right,

0:27:33.200 --> 0:27:35.320
<v Speaker 1>this is when everything was better today. If you like,

0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:38.200
<v Speaker 1>listen to these guys talk about what went wrong with men.

0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:41.120
<v Speaker 1>They'll talk about like the first half of the twentieth

0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:44.720
<v Speaker 1>century is like almost this perfect time, right, men were men,

0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:48.879
<v Speaker 1>everything was better, And this is largely because their attitudes

0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:50.840
<v Speaker 1>of what it was like for men in this period

0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:53.520
<v Speaker 1>of time came entirely through the lens of film and television.

0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:57.080
<v Speaker 1>So it might surprise people to learn that the nineteen twenties,

0:27:57.280 --> 0:27:59.439
<v Speaker 1>you know, the turn of the century to the nineteen twenties,

0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:02.720
<v Speaker 1>was the site of our first real crisis of masculinity

0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:05.399
<v Speaker 1>in the United States. Now my main source here is

0:28:05.440 --> 0:28:09.399
<v Speaker 1>an excellent article on what's called male compensatory consumption by

0:28:09.520 --> 0:28:13.080
<v Speaker 1>Terrence Witkowski for the Journeral of Macro Marketing. It starts

0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:15.560
<v Speaker 1>by making the case that back during the colonial period,

0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:18.959
<v Speaker 1>popular notions of masculinity tended to focus on either the wealthy,

0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:23.159
<v Speaker 1>slaveholding heads of planter dynasties or men's like Jefferson's mythic

0:28:23.240 --> 0:28:26.480
<v Speaker 1>yaloeman farmer right heroic artisans, which is the term what

0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:30.119
<v Speaker 1>Kowski uses, who lacked wealth but were skilled, physically strong,

0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:33.520
<v Speaker 1>and wealth and self reliant. By the early eighteen hundreds,

0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.720
<v Speaker 1>this had started to morph into a recognizable phenomenon, the

0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:39.160
<v Speaker 1>cult of the self made man. By the end of

0:28:39.160 --> 0:28:42.360
<v Speaker 1>the century, the American ideal had solidified into something still

0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:46.760
<v Speaker 1>very recognizable to us, the independent homesteader or small business owner,

0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.520
<v Speaker 1>carving a place for himself out of the wild frontier

0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:53.240
<v Speaker 1>or the chaos of the city. Nearly all man influencers

0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:56.720
<v Speaker 1>today model themselves on one of these two archetypes. In fact,

0:28:56.800 --> 0:28:58.920
<v Speaker 1>these attitudes have been so consistent that back in the

0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:03.160
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventies, psychologist named Robert Brandon summarized the four themes

0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 1>of masculinity in American society. Number one, no sissy stuff.

0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:12.200
<v Speaker 1>Number two Wait, actually, yes, yes, it's basically he's like

0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:13.720
<v Speaker 1>it's scared of being scared of being gay.

0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:16.400
<v Speaker 1>Like that's a I mean, I think he's got it

0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:18.560
<v Speaker 1>on the money. Right, fear of like being seen as

0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:20.800
<v Speaker 1>gay is a big attitude of like masculinity.

0:29:21.000 --> 0:29:23.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, love it. Number one, no sissy stuff.

0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Number two the big wheel right, that's a reference to

0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:31.400
<v Speaker 1>the need to be the provider, right, this the source

0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.320
<v Speaker 1>of wealth and financial success that like, the people in

0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:37.640
<v Speaker 1>your life are reliant on. Number three the sturdy oak. Right,

0:29:37.680 --> 0:29:40.960
<v Speaker 1>that's like the protector defender of your family. And number

0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:43.520
<v Speaker 1>four give him hell right, this need to be seen

0:29:43.560 --> 0:29:46.000
<v Speaker 1>as like a fighter. You know, to some extent at

0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:49.200
<v Speaker 1>least capable of fighting for for yourself and your family

0:29:49.240 --> 0:29:53.560
<v Speaker 1>and whatnot. Now, this understanding of the American man was

0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 1>the product of generations. It was a thing that was

0:29:55.800 --> 0:29:58.320
<v Speaker 1>like formed over time, a great deal of time and

0:29:58.360 --> 0:29:59.920
<v Speaker 1>a great deal of like media.

0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:30:00.720 --> 0:30:03.640
<v Speaker 1>But it met its first existential conflict during the tail

0:30:03.720 --> 0:30:06.440
<v Speaker 1>end of the Victorian era, ironically as a result of

0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:09.640
<v Speaker 1>the strict separation of women and men's spheres of existence

0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 1>during that period. Terrence Witkowski writes the late Victorian era

0:30:14.120 --> 0:30:17.120
<v Speaker 1>doctrine of separate spheres, where husbands left for work in

0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 1>factories and offices while they're somewhat sequestered wives managed household consumption,

0:30:21.640 --> 0:30:24.400
<v Speaker 1>meant that mothers monopolized the better part of child rearing,

0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:27.000
<v Speaker 1>and boys lacked the benefit of close male supervision they

0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:29.960
<v Speaker 1>once had when most fathers worked closer to home. Moreover,

0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:32.560
<v Speaker 1>women were taking charge of public education, at least in

0:30:32.600 --> 0:30:35.600
<v Speaker 1>the lower grades, and thus further socializing boys in non

0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:39.880
<v Speaker 1>manly ways. According to gender alarmists, So this first panic

0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:42.959
<v Speaker 1>about gender in the US comes about at the end

0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:45.640
<v Speaker 1>of the eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, as suddenly people

0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:48.200
<v Speaker 1>are like, wait a second, women are raising all of

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:50.160
<v Speaker 1>the kids and they're teaching them too, They're going to

0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:51.360
<v Speaker 1>teach them how to be women.

0:30:51.800 --> 0:30:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like you know how that works? Women no women

0:30:55.720 --> 0:30:57.560
<v Speaker 2>things nol today?

0:30:57.640 --> 0:30:59.920
<v Speaker 1>Boy ah, why did we send all of harmn off

0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:05.360
<v Speaker 1>to die in coal factories? It is interesting that also, like,

0:31:05.640 --> 0:31:07.400
<v Speaker 1>and this is up to the present day, all of

0:31:07.440 --> 0:31:10.200
<v Speaker 1>these crises and masculinity start with as a result of

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:13.520
<v Speaker 1>like danger bad things capitalism does. Because right, it is

0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:17.000
<v Speaker 1>bad for like children to never see their dads because

0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:18.720
<v Speaker 1>they're working in the poison factory.

0:31:18.840 --> 0:31:22.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, Like that's terrible, yeah, right, and why is that? Well,

0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, they have to exploit his labor.

0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Since a day standing in a pile of cyanide up

0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:30.320
<v Speaker 1>to my nipples.

0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Couldn't raise we discovered apples for lunch.

0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:41.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And this brings me to the most influential right

0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:43.600
<v Speaker 1>wing moral panic of the modern era, because I think

0:31:43.600 --> 0:31:45.960
<v Speaker 1>it relates exactly to the kind of panic you saw

0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:48.920
<v Speaker 1>at the turn of the nineteenth century. And I'm talking

0:31:48.960 --> 0:31:51.280
<v Speaker 1>about gamer Gate. Now, if you happen to be under

0:31:51.280 --> 0:31:53.200
<v Speaker 1>a rock or too old or too young to spend

0:31:53.240 --> 0:31:55.760
<v Speaker 1>time in places like four chan during gamer Gate, I'm

0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:57.000
<v Speaker 1>gonna summarize what happened.

0:31:57.040 --> 0:32:01.040
<v Speaker 2>I missed out. Yeah, terrible. You guys lost it. You

0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:06.000
<v Speaker 2>were just talking about that sweet spot and six we

0:32:06.040 --> 0:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>had about eight years. So a young man got angry

0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:12.840
<v Speaker 2>at his ex girlfriend, who was a female games developer

0:32:12.880 --> 0:32:14.880
<v Speaker 2>who had made a video game about depression. I'm not

0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:16.560
<v Speaker 2>using their names. You can find them easily.

0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:18.240
<v Speaker 1>I just think these people have had their names stuck

0:32:18.240 --> 0:32:21.760
<v Speaker 1>out there often enough. He alleged that she had slept

0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:24.640
<v Speaker 1>with a gaming journalist and she had dated a guy

0:32:24.720 --> 0:32:27.480
<v Speaker 1>at a website called Kotaku. Now that guy had not

0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.600
<v Speaker 1>written about her game. He had like quoted her once

0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:33.040
<v Speaker 1>in an article before they started dating, but he had

0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:35.680
<v Speaker 1>not actually reviewed her game, which is what they claimed

0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:37.600
<v Speaker 1>the whole problem was, right that this was proof of

0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:40.720
<v Speaker 1>this insidious women are sleeping with men and it's polluting

0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:43.480
<v Speaker 1>the hobby right like, it's causing all of these games

0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:44.600
<v Speaker 1>to get unfair reviews.

0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Right now.

0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:49.200
<v Speaker 1>What it actually happened is that gaming had become the

0:32:49.240 --> 0:32:52.360
<v Speaker 1>most popular form of recreation in the country, and that

0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 1>also made it popular among women and men who weren't assholes,

0:32:57.080 --> 0:33:00.400
<v Speaker 1>and this led to a broadening of what games could be.

0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:02.960
<v Speaker 1>You really saw in this period of the early offs,

0:33:03.000 --> 0:33:05.520
<v Speaker 1>this like explosion and all these independent games that had

0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:09.320
<v Speaker 1>very different ideas on like what gaming ought or like

0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:11.840
<v Speaker 1>what a game could be that did not comport with

0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:14.520
<v Speaker 1>the big Triple A games and stuff that had been

0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:17.320
<v Speaker 1>huge in the past, and like these games didn't stop

0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:19.720
<v Speaker 1>there from being Triple A games where you murder people.

0:33:19.920 --> 0:33:22.560
<v Speaker 1>That's still the most common kind of video game. In fact,

0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:26.840
<v Speaker 1>I just finished replaying Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven. Games where

0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:29.440
<v Speaker 1>you murder people are better than ever. We've gotten so

0:33:29.560 --> 0:33:31.680
<v Speaker 1>good at games where you murder P've perfected it.

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, now you can be pretty much any three letter

0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:36.120
<v Speaker 2>agency you want to be too, Like, there's probably a

0:33:36.120 --> 0:33:36.800
<v Speaker 2>game four that too.

0:33:36.960 --> 0:33:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a game for whatever kind of murder you

0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:42.440
<v Speaker 1>want to commit. Guys, you're fine. Yeah, but yeah, there

0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:44.960
<v Speaker 1>was this attitude that like women were ruining games, and

0:33:45.000 --> 0:33:48.520
<v Speaker 1>it's really it is the same fears, like, well, because

0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:51.440
<v Speaker 1>men need to make money, and they need specifically to

0:33:51.440 --> 0:33:54.400
<v Speaker 1>make money by laboring in factories and offices. Because we

0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:56.760
<v Speaker 1>have changed the economics of the country in a way

0:33:56.800 --> 0:33:59.640
<v Speaker 1>that's more efficient and profitable for a very small small

0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:03.640
<v Speaker 1>number of people. Right only the people taking care of

0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:06.680
<v Speaker 1>kids are women, And now we're going to have express

0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:08.640
<v Speaker 1>this panic towards the idea that like, that's going to

0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:11.279
<v Speaker 1>make men womanly? Right, Well, what happens at gamer Gate,

0:34:11.320 --> 0:34:14.759
<v Speaker 1>and it's it's a much more kind of autocathonic, you know,

0:34:14.880 --> 0:34:18.080
<v Speaker 1>raised from within the community sort of experience rather than

0:34:18.080 --> 0:34:21.040
<v Speaker 1>something imposed outside by these kind of moral busy bodies.

0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 1>But you do have a lot of people who are

0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:25.760
<v Speaker 1>scared that like, oh, if women are involved in gaming,

0:34:25.800 --> 0:34:28.360
<v Speaker 1>it's going to change gaming, right, and that's going to

0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:31.319
<v Speaker 1>destroy the only place that men have to really be

0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:32.480
<v Speaker 1>men anymore.

0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:34.239
<v Speaker 2>The only place. It's one of the things you.

0:34:34.200 --> 0:34:36.040
<v Speaker 1>See if you read, like if you go back to

0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:38.080
<v Speaker 1>a lot of those original posts on four Channet, the

0:34:38.120 --> 0:34:40.480
<v Speaker 1>start a gamer Gate is this attitude that like, the

0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:43.520
<v Speaker 1>only place I socialize and like meet friends is in

0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:46.160
<v Speaker 1>like the lobbies of different games, and if there are

0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:48.400
<v Speaker 1>women there, if I don't feel free to use slurs

0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:50.560
<v Speaker 1>or make the kind of jokes I used to, then

0:34:50.560 --> 0:34:52.839
<v Speaker 1>there's like, no, this is a harm to me. I

0:34:52.840 --> 0:34:54.480
<v Speaker 1>am who am right?

0:34:54.680 --> 0:34:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? If I'm a white teenager who likes to use

0:34:57.520 --> 0:34:59.840
<v Speaker 2>the hard r N word while proban call of do,

0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:03.080
<v Speaker 2>then I have no I have no soul anymore.

0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and obviously the claims that they made that

0:35:06.360 --> 0:35:08.920
<v Speaker 1>like this was about ethics and video game journalism, this

0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:11.480
<v Speaker 1>was about like, you know, corruption in these companies. That

0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.879
<v Speaker 1>was all bullshit, but they very successfully use that as

0:35:14.880 --> 0:35:17.879
<v Speaker 1>a screen right. And so when when it became clear

0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:20.120
<v Speaker 1>to the media that they needed to report on gamer Gate,

0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:22.399
<v Speaker 1>an awful lot of journalists did fall for well, let's

0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.440
<v Speaker 1>talk about how valid the allegations are as opposed to

0:35:25.520 --> 0:35:28.239
<v Speaker 1>let's look at the harassment campaign that's being executed. And

0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:32.200
<v Speaker 1>as a result, no one did anything about the harassment campaign,

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:35.160
<v Speaker 1>and that harassment campaign has gone on to become the

0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:38.080
<v Speaker 1>standard right wing playbook for how to do everything. This

0:35:38.160 --> 0:35:41.120
<v Speaker 1>is the only way conservatism really works in the United

0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:44.439
<v Speaker 1>States anymore. I found a succinct explanation for how these

0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:47.359
<v Speaker 1>these efforts are carried out in a courts article by

0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Rve Waldman. Quote. The gamer Gate playbook is simple and direct. First,

0:35:51.480 --> 0:35:54.360
<v Speaker 1>identify a vulnerable target, usually a woman, person of color,

0:35:54.400 --> 0:35:57.960
<v Speaker 1>a member of the LGBTQ community. Then highlight their vulnerabilities

0:35:58.040 --> 0:36:01.280
<v Speaker 1>that disaffected, mostly white young men can attack them. Continue

0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:03.640
<v Speaker 1>the attacks until someone pushes back or the platform of

0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:06.960
<v Speaker 1>choice shuts it down. Now, if you've spent any time

0:36:07.000 --> 0:36:09.960
<v Speaker 1>online today. You've just watched the right wing panic over

0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:12.400
<v Speaker 1>DEI as it's led to teachers being harassed out of

0:36:12.520 --> 0:36:15.759
<v Speaker 1>jobs and schools closed by bomb threats. This is all

0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:18.840
<v Speaker 1>the Gamergate playbook, right, which is again entirely how the

0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:22.040
<v Speaker 1>right wing culture war machine works these days. Now, we're

0:36:22.040 --> 0:36:24.200
<v Speaker 1>going to talk about how that happened later, because this

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:28.720
<v Speaker 1>was very much an intentional process, right. There were people

0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.920
<v Speaker 1>from the beginning who saw the potential in utilizing this

0:36:31.960 --> 0:36:35.120
<v Speaker 1>community of angry young men this way. He's in jail

0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:37.760
<v Speaker 1>right now, I think, Yeah, he is in jail still currently,

0:36:38.120 --> 0:36:40.520
<v Speaker 1>mister Bannon. Yeah, we'll be chatting about him a while.

0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:43.600
<v Speaker 1>And it's one of these things I've been reporting about

0:36:43.680 --> 0:36:46.759
<v Speaker 1>stuff downstream of Gamergate for years. I brought it up

0:36:46.760 --> 0:36:49.200
<v Speaker 1>on the show a lot. I didn't realize until recently

0:36:49.520 --> 0:36:51.680
<v Speaker 1>that back in the early nineteen hundreds there was this

0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:55.680
<v Speaker 1>fear over female teachers and like moms raising their sons,

0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:56.640
<v Speaker 1>that really is.

0:36:56.719 --> 0:36:57.239
<v Speaker 2>It's the same.

0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:00.360
<v Speaker 1>There's girls in this space that should just be and

0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:03.719
<v Speaker 1>it's going to ruin boys, you know, we have to do.

0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:06.680
<v Speaker 1>And it's the fault of the women right who have

0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:11.440
<v Speaker 1>forced themselves into these areas right in both cases. It's

0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:13.279
<v Speaker 1>just like capitalism saw that a lot of women are

0:37:13.320 --> 0:37:17.160
<v Speaker 1>buying video games. You know, capitalism put men in factories.

0:37:17.239 --> 0:37:20.160
<v Speaker 2>Right, where's the market, where's the labor? There we go off,

0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:20.400
<v Speaker 2>you go.

0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:22.960
<v Speaker 1>We're going to be kind of flitting back and forth

0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:25.160
<v Speaker 1>from the past to the future here. You know, I

0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:26.759
<v Speaker 1>just felt like that was the best way to do it.

0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:30.480
<v Speaker 1>Hopefully people will be relatively fine with this. But to

0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:33.839
<v Speaker 1>return to the nineteen hundreds, right, once the suffragette movement

0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:36.640
<v Speaker 1>started picking up steam, the kind of men who didn't

0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:40.000
<v Speaker 1>trust the concept of a female teacher got even weirder.

0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:42.439
<v Speaker 1>And I'm going to continue with a quote from Witkowski here.

0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 1>Their presence challenged those men who felt deserving of political entitlement.

0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:49.880
<v Speaker 1>During the bicycling craze of the eighteen nineties, women constituted

0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:51.920
<v Speaker 1>about a third of the market and thus became a

0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:56.120
<v Speaker 1>visible kinetic reminder of changing gender norms. And this gets

0:37:56.200 --> 0:37:58.360
<v Speaker 1>us miles to one of my favorite moral panics in

0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:03.799
<v Speaker 1>American history, the panic over girls and bicycles. Now, the

0:38:03.880 --> 0:38:06.800
<v Speaker 1>gist of the issue is that with bicycles, single women

0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:09.600
<v Speaker 1>were for the first time able to travel large, long

0:38:09.640 --> 0:38:12.920
<v Speaker 1>distances on their own right, like and without needing to

0:38:12.920 --> 0:38:14.640
<v Speaker 1>have a lot of money. Right, if you have a bike,

0:38:14.760 --> 0:38:16.520
<v Speaker 1>you could travel on your own and you could travel

0:38:16.600 --> 0:38:19.000
<v Speaker 1>quite far. You need to have horse money. You need

0:38:19.000 --> 0:38:20.640
<v Speaker 1>to have a guy who will let you use a horse.

0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:24.120
<v Speaker 1>You don't need need carb money, right, you just need carbohydrates, right, yeah,

0:38:24.160 --> 0:38:25.279
<v Speaker 1>you just need calories.

0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:26.040
<v Speaker 2>Now.

0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:29.600
<v Speaker 1>This change happened during a general boom and employment for women.

0:38:29.640 --> 0:38:32.680
<v Speaker 1>So suddenly women are working and they are taking themselves places.

0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:36.120
<v Speaker 1>And also the necessities, you know, just the physical realities

0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:39.680
<v Speaker 1>of how bicycles work led to changes in women's clothing.

0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:42.440
<v Speaker 1>This is part of why the layered and complex women's

0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:45.799
<v Speaker 1>wear the Victorian era went away, right, because it's just

0:38:45.840 --> 0:38:49.040
<v Speaker 1>not as convenient when you're cycling, right, And this is

0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:51.280
<v Speaker 1>bicycle is one of the things that led to women

0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:53.439
<v Speaker 1>wearing pants. It's not the only, like that's a more

0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:56.719
<v Speaker 1>complicated story than that, but bicycles are a significant part

0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:57.080
<v Speaker 1>of that.

0:38:57.280 --> 0:38:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Right. Do you think there are like some terrible accidents

0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:02.279
<v Speaker 2>where they're like, look, honey, if you're going to ride

0:39:02.320 --> 0:39:07.120
<v Speaker 2>a bike, you wear your gigantic skirt with underskirt stuff,

0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:09.560
<v Speaker 2>and that's not gonna get stuck caught in the chain

0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:11.239
<v Speaker 2>or anything. Don't worry about it. Yeah.

0:39:11.320 --> 0:39:13.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, if you've got you can't get out go out

0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:15.120
<v Speaker 1>the door with less than thirty pounds of whalebone on

0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:15.600
<v Speaker 1>your body.

0:39:15.840 --> 0:39:19.359
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, before you get on that two wheeled abomination. Yeah.

0:39:19.360 --> 0:39:22.120
<v Speaker 1>And obviously, like it gets the degree to which Victorian

0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:25.200
<v Speaker 1>clothing was like, where's like these insanely complicated. That gets

0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:29.200
<v Speaker 1>exaggerated some, but it's generally agreeable that like the fact

0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:31.279
<v Speaker 1>that cycles are in the mix now is part of

0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:33.640
<v Speaker 1>why it becomes more common for women to wear stuff

0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:37.080
<v Speaker 1>like pants. Right now, this all of this freaks out

0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:40.640
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people, and this generation of medical grifters

0:39:40.680 --> 0:39:43.080
<v Speaker 1>of like doctors who see that men are really not

0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:46.960
<v Speaker 1>happy with women bicycling, rise up to kind of profit

0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:49.040
<v Speaker 1>off of that right. And these are guys who are like,

0:39:49.239 --> 0:39:52.319
<v Speaker 1>I can explain you're not happy with this because you

0:39:52.360 --> 0:39:54.600
<v Speaker 1>just don't like women doing things, but I'm going to

0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:57.359
<v Speaker 1>come up with a medical justification for why you're really

0:39:57.400 --> 0:40:00.680
<v Speaker 1>in the right for not wanting women to wear but bicycles.

0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:05.000
<v Speaker 1>They started arguing, there's like papers on this that bicycles

0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:10.239
<v Speaker 1>literally change women's skeletons, cursing them with bicycle hand or bicycle.

0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Foot, bicycle, hand bicycle hand? Where was the grifter who's like, oh,

0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:17.560
<v Speaker 2>I hate I mean, I know you think I'm lying.

0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:20.200
<v Speaker 2>Come over here, check this out. Our bicycles on your hand?

0:40:20.480 --> 0:40:24.440
<v Speaker 2>A fuck? Wait what am I looking at? It's a hand,

0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 2>it's a hand bicycle.

0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:27.880
<v Speaker 1>It's a hand with some muscles on it. You know,

0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:30.000
<v Speaker 1>she's not just she's not just sitting in a room

0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:31.879
<v Speaker 1>with yellow wallpapers waiting to die.

0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:39.799
<v Speaker 2>Those are some thick thumbs. Yeah, grip that shit. Oh no.

0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:44.280
<v Speaker 1>In an article for McGill University's Office for Science and Society,

0:40:44.360 --> 0:40:47.280
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Jerry Wrights, it was thought that women were mentally

0:40:47.320 --> 0:40:50.360
<v Speaker 1>and physically impaired by the demands of their reproductive apparatus

0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:54.320
<v Speaker 1>and menstruation cycles. Riding around on a tricycle was considered fine,

0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:56.520
<v Speaker 1>but on a strenuous bicycle why it might cause a

0:40:56.560 --> 0:41:00.200
<v Speaker 1>woman's finite physical energy to be extinguished. Medical journal at

0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:02.760
<v Speaker 1>the time would seek out anomalies linked to bicycle writing

0:41:02.800 --> 0:41:05.879
<v Speaker 1>and confuse an association with a cause and effect relationship,

0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:09.120
<v Speaker 1>although perhaps the confusion was a little bit voluntary. Writing

0:41:09.120 --> 0:41:12.400
<v Speaker 1>a bicycle could cause appendicitis. They reported internal inflammation and

0:41:12.440 --> 0:41:15.000
<v Speaker 1>swelling off the throat from all the excitement, and teenage

0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:17.600
<v Speaker 1>girls whose reproductive system was still developing were thought to

0:41:17.600 --> 0:41:20.480
<v Speaker 1>be at risk of displacement of the uterus, physical shocks,

0:41:20.480 --> 0:41:23.040
<v Speaker 1>and all sorts of bodily transformations brought about by the

0:41:23.040 --> 0:41:28.600
<v Speaker 1>bicycle that would render them unable to bear children. Now today, Miles,

0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:31.279
<v Speaker 1>if you're an awful crank with a terrible opinion, you

0:41:31.320 --> 0:41:33.239
<v Speaker 1>can probably get the New York Times to write a

0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:35.799
<v Speaker 1>very sympathetic profile of you, if you went to a

0:41:35.840 --> 0:41:38.640
<v Speaker 1>good school with the New York Times reporter. Back in

0:41:38.680 --> 0:41:41.200
<v Speaker 1>eighteen ninety four, the Times was still at the cutting

0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:44.360
<v Speaker 1>age of endorsing nonsense. That year, they published an article

0:41:44.400 --> 0:41:47.920
<v Speaker 1>titled Lunacy in England. It argued, quote, there is not

0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:51.359
<v Speaker 1>the slightest doubt that bicycle riding, if persisted in, leads

0:41:51.400 --> 0:41:54.920
<v Speaker 1>to weakness of mind, general lunacy and homicidal mania.

0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:59.360
<v Speaker 2>General lunacy, general lunacy, just general lunacies.

0:41:59.400 --> 0:42:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Kind of catch up, Yeah, it did. I mean, it

0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:04.000
<v Speaker 1>is true that when you add cars to the mixed

0:42:04.040 --> 0:42:06.840
<v Speaker 1>bicycles do cause some people to become a homicidal but

0:42:06.880 --> 0:42:08.560
<v Speaker 1>it's not the cyclists in general.

0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:11.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, no, no, no, not at all. No, she's

0:42:11.280 --> 0:42:13.760
<v Speaker 2>general lunis I love that. Yeah, those are my favorite

0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:16.759
<v Speaker 2>terms when like you could just grift off of just

0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:19.640
<v Speaker 2>sort of like a I'm going to combine some words.

0:42:19.680 --> 0:42:22.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, obviously you understand what I'm saying, lunacy, but general.

0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:25.000
<v Speaker 2>So if I ever see something like, well, that woman,

0:42:25.120 --> 0:42:27.440
<v Speaker 2>she's stronger than me, it's like, well, general lunacy has

0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:29.640
<v Speaker 2>obviously taken over from the confidence you got on a bicycle.

0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:31.279
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is the problem.

0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:34.200
<v Speaker 1>Though, now, Michael Miles, in nineteen twenty, women had come

0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:36.840
<v Speaker 1>to make about twenty percent of the workforce. We know

0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:39.360
<v Speaker 1>women had always been a massive part of the economy,

0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:41.480
<v Speaker 1>that now they held formal jobs in a world of

0:42:41.480 --> 0:42:44.080
<v Speaker 1>offices and factories that had been nearly all male since

0:42:44.080 --> 0:42:48.000
<v Speaker 1>their inception. This caused another panic, one that resembles modern

0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:51.400
<v Speaker 1>panics over migrant workers, as employers realized women could handle

0:42:51.440 --> 0:42:53.840
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the same jobs that men could, and

0:42:53.880 --> 0:42:56.160
<v Speaker 1>they could pay women half as much for their labor.

0:42:56.480 --> 0:42:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:42:56.960 --> 0:42:59.200
<v Speaker 1>It is weirdly, like very similar to the panic you

0:42:59.239 --> 0:43:01.160
<v Speaker 1>get over migrants, and it's all focused on the fact

0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:04.239
<v Speaker 1>that capitalists again are seeing like, well, we can just

0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:06.399
<v Speaker 1>have women do the same things and pay them half

0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:08.719
<v Speaker 1>as much like, there's no no one's going to get

0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:11.279
<v Speaker 1>angry at us fucking over these ladies and men start

0:43:11.320 --> 0:43:13.759
<v Speaker 1>getting pissed that, like, women are taking these jobs that

0:43:13.920 --> 0:43:18.439
<v Speaker 1>used to be held by specifically, this is not factory work.

0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:21.520
<v Speaker 1>Women aren't replacing men in coal mines. This is jobs

0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:24.239
<v Speaker 1>that had been held by educated men, right, like bookkeepers

0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:26.120
<v Speaker 1>in stores. Right, these guys are a lot of these

0:43:26.120 --> 0:43:28.440
<v Speaker 1>men are replaced by women and cash registers in the

0:43:28.440 --> 0:43:31.880
<v Speaker 1>eighteen eighties. The actual impact in the daily lives of

0:43:31.880 --> 0:43:34.000
<v Speaker 1>male workers would have been small, because only about a

0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:36.560
<v Speaker 1>third of employed men in nineteen ten worked for companies

0:43:36.600 --> 0:43:39.040
<v Speaker 1>with a workforce that was more than five percent female.

0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:41.440
<v Speaker 1>But because of the kind of men whose jobs were

0:43:41.440 --> 0:43:44.440
<v Speaker 1>disrupted and the kind of men who feared they'd be next,

0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:48.360
<v Speaker 1>were white collar types. The cultural response to this disruption

0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:51.640
<v Speaker 1>was an obsession with manliness, right, and it came about

0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:53.479
<v Speaker 1>in a large part as a result of like guys

0:43:53.480 --> 0:43:58.760
<v Speaker 1>who worked for newspapers expressing the anxieties of their class,

0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:01.520
<v Speaker 1>of like educated men who didn't get their hands sturdy

0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:06.520
<v Speaker 1>right Witkowski rights. Social historians have contended that many American

0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:09.920
<v Speaker 1>men engaged in myriad forms of gendered consumption behavior to

0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:13.640
<v Speaker 1>compensate for threats to their masculinity by an increasingly administrative

0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:17.760
<v Speaker 1>and allegedly feminized culture. As Rotundo put it, when changes

0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:20.480
<v Speaker 1>in the workplace caused men to feel uncertain of their manhood,

0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:23.440
<v Speaker 1>their primary response was to seek new forms of reassurance

0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:27.239
<v Speaker 1>about it. Strenuous recreation, spectator sports, adventure novels, and a

0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:31.279
<v Speaker 1>growing cult of the wilderness all served this need, right,

0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:33.480
<v Speaker 1>And this is a period of time we've talked about

0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Bernard McFadden, right, the manliness guru who came out with

0:44:37.000 --> 0:44:39.360
<v Speaker 1>Physical Culture magazine, which is kind of the first like

0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:42.600
<v Speaker 1>muscle magazine. You know, he comes out in the early

0:44:42.680 --> 0:44:46.320
<v Speaker 1>nineteen hundreds. He's very much writing this wave Teddy Roosevelt,

0:44:46.360 --> 0:44:48.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, to an extent, a lot of his popularity

0:44:48.760 --> 0:44:51.920
<v Speaker 1>comes out of this, right, because he's this stereotypically manly

0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:54.200
<v Speaker 1>men who is in a lot of ways not just

0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:58.400
<v Speaker 1>like a presidential candidate, but an ideal of masculinity for

0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:00.359
<v Speaker 1>a lot of men. You know, in this you read

0:45:00.360 --> 0:45:03.880
<v Speaker 1>of anxiety a lot. Yeah, I'm hunting big game in Africa.

0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:06.879
<v Speaker 2>You're like, whoa a man.

0:45:06.680 --> 0:45:09.759
<v Speaker 1>I'm a fucking I'm a fucking Like basically a guy

0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:11.719
<v Speaker 1>whose job used to beat a count shit at a

0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:14.000
<v Speaker 1>general store, and now I don't have a job. You know,

0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:17.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to fucking fantasize about being like Teddy Roosevelt,

0:45:17.600 --> 0:45:19.480
<v Speaker 1>and I'm going to get into weightlifting, you.

0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Know, exactly, throw a handlebar mustache. Yeah.

0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:25.320
<v Speaker 1>Now, these guys are followed very quickly by a swarm

0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:28.960
<v Speaker 1>of grifters selling products guaranteed to make insecure men feel

0:45:29.040 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 1>more like Bernar or Teddy. This included a variety of

0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:36.279
<v Speaker 1>quack products that feel extremely modern in the present day.

0:45:36.600 --> 0:45:40.279
<v Speaker 1>Here's what Kowski again. K Leo Minges of Rochester, New

0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:43.040
<v Speaker 1>York founded the Cartilage Company to peddle up a dubious

0:45:43.080 --> 0:45:46.680
<v Speaker 1>stretching program using arcane machinery that promised to increase men's

0:45:46.680 --> 0:45:49.880
<v Speaker 1>stature up to several inches. His company advertised heavily in

0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:53.920
<v Speaker 1>national publications such as Munzies magazines and Popular Mechanics, and

0:45:53.960 --> 0:45:56.879
<v Speaker 1>in many other print vehicles featuring headlines such as how

0:45:56.920 --> 0:45:59.800
<v Speaker 1>I Grew Tall, How to grow tall and broaden your shoulders,

0:45:59.840 --> 0:46:03.200
<v Speaker 1>and from nineteen oh four, every Woman Admires a Tall Man.

0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:08.840
<v Speaker 1>The illustrations often showed women towering over short men, and again,

0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:11.440
<v Speaker 1>you see like what the what's really happening here? This

0:46:11.520 --> 0:46:14.440
<v Speaker 1>is not a widespread anxiety. Guys who are coal miners

0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:17.799
<v Speaker 1>are not insecure about their masculinity. It's like short dudes

0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:20.239
<v Speaker 1>who work in the city and feel like, Ah, women

0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:22.720
<v Speaker 1>are taking the jobs that I thought would be safe

0:46:22.719 --> 0:46:26.080
<v Speaker 1>for me. And also I feel scared around them because

0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:28.239
<v Speaker 1>my mom never let me talk to women until she

0:46:28.320 --> 0:46:30.200
<v Speaker 1>died when I was twenty eight. And I just don't

0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:33.360
<v Speaker 1>understand how to deal with the world right.

0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:35.560
<v Speaker 2>And I'm so frightened now, And I think all these

0:46:35.600 --> 0:46:38.640
<v Speaker 2>other men I'm around, they're using these machines to lengthen

0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:40.240
<v Speaker 2>their corporal right side.

0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:43.359
<v Speaker 1>I could get taller too by buying this machine from

0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:45.880
<v Speaker 1>the fucking from a magazine up.

0:46:46.320 --> 0:46:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:46:47.239 --> 0:46:50.080
<v Speaker 1>Now, none of this machinery worked right, But in the

0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:53.960
<v Speaker 1>twenty first century, Miles, we've come around to actually having

0:46:54.000 --> 0:46:58.040
<v Speaker 1>a way. You can do this right. Making yourself taller

0:46:58.160 --> 0:47:00.399
<v Speaker 1>is with it. As long as you've got money you

0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:04.200
<v Speaker 1>can in fact pay to get taller, and an unthinkable

0:47:04.760 --> 0:47:05.680
<v Speaker 1>tolerance for pain.

0:47:05.760 --> 0:47:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and a massive yeah.

0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:10.800
<v Speaker 1>If you are willing to permanently injure yourself and forever

0:47:10.920 --> 0:47:13.720
<v Speaker 1>be less physically capable in every way that matters.

0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:16.759
<v Speaker 2>Hey, man Tallery, you want to be taller? You down?

0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:20.040
<v Speaker 2>Just one question? Man, you down with bone extensions?

0:47:20.520 --> 0:47:24.279
<v Speaker 1>What? Yes, Miles, that's where we're going here. I want

0:47:24.320 --> 0:47:26.920
<v Speaker 1>to introduce you to one of my favorite TikTok accounts,

0:47:27.200 --> 0:47:30.080
<v Speaker 1>height Like Though, with one hundred and twenty three thousand

0:47:30.200 --> 0:47:33.600
<v Speaker 1>followers and almost six million likes. This is the account

0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:38.200
<v Speaker 1>for doctor Shahab Mabubian, probably the top name and funniest

0:47:38.280 --> 0:47:41.799
<v Speaker 1>name in surgical height enhancement. Today, let's take a look

0:47:41.840 --> 0:47:44.200
<v Speaker 1>at one of his most popular videos with seven point

0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:47.200
<v Speaker 1>three million views and like half a million likes. I

0:47:47.239 --> 0:47:49.440
<v Speaker 1>want to warn you now that watching and hearing this

0:47:49.560 --> 0:47:51.200
<v Speaker 1>video made me want to die.

0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:54.719
<v Speaker 6>He underwent the height lengthening procedure on his famous last

0:47:54.760 --> 0:47:57.040
<v Speaker 6>week to permanently get three inches taller.

0:47:58.520 --> 0:48:01.560
<v Speaker 1>Oh, great content, incredible stuff.

0:48:01.719 --> 0:48:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Thank you TikTok.

0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:09.400
<v Speaker 1>Now in that TikTok, my favorite like response to the

0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:12.239
<v Speaker 1>video itself was one guy just saying, one guy Captain B.

0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:16.440
<v Speaker 1>Maxwell saying that sounds painful honestly and bad for the bones.

0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:20.200
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, good news, captain. You are correct. This is

0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:21.360
<v Speaker 1>bad for the bones.

0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:22.560
<v Speaker 2>What was.

0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:27.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I don't know why that decision was made.

0:48:27.400 --> 0:48:29.880
<v Speaker 1>But doctor Mabubian seems to be making enough money that

0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:34.799
<v Speaker 1>I yeah, yeah, he knows his business. Dancing ironically a

0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:37.480
<v Speaker 1>thing you won't be doing once you get leg extensions.

0:48:38.280 --> 0:48:41.719
<v Speaker 2>They tell you you'll you'll absolutely void the warranty on

0:48:41.800 --> 0:48:44.520
<v Speaker 2>you if you deign to dance like.

0:48:44.480 --> 0:48:56.040
<v Speaker 1>As now speaking of Cissy's no, sorry, here's ads. We're

0:48:56.040 --> 0:49:00.920
<v Speaker 1>back miles. So obviously, leg lengthening I didn't start out

0:49:01.040 --> 0:49:04.360
<v Speaker 1>as a grift for insecure men. Like the surgery itself

0:49:04.400 --> 0:49:06.600
<v Speaker 1>comes from a good place, which is there are men

0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:09.400
<v Speaker 1>who are born with one leg like longer than the

0:49:09.560 --> 0:49:11.480
<v Speaker 1>sure other, right, and that right, I mean I have

0:49:11.480 --> 0:49:13.400
<v Speaker 1>a cousin who's got this and like, yeah, it messes

0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:15.200
<v Speaker 1>up like the way that you walk, right, and having

0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:17.680
<v Speaker 1>a surgery that can deal with that. The trade offs

0:49:17.680 --> 0:49:21.080
<v Speaker 1>can be worth it, right, or if you've been injured seriously,

0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:22.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, as the result of like a lot of

0:49:22.920 --> 0:49:25.400
<v Speaker 1>guys get injured in war, right, and they wind up

0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:27.719
<v Speaker 1>after they get rebuilt with one leg shorter than the other,

0:49:27.719 --> 0:49:30.040
<v Speaker 1>and maybe they'd want to do this right in that case,

0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:33.439
<v Speaker 1>the trade offs are, at least for some people worth it, right,

0:49:34.239 --> 0:49:36.760
<v Speaker 1>And that's what the surgery was used for for decades,

0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:40.080
<v Speaker 1>but within the last fifteen to twenty years, enterprising doctors

0:49:40.160 --> 0:49:42.759
<v Speaker 1>like Mabubian have realized how much money there is and

0:49:42.800 --> 0:49:44.480
<v Speaker 1>taking advantage of insecure men.

0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:45.640
<v Speaker 2>He told BuzzFeed.

0:49:45.760 --> 0:49:48.000
<v Speaker 1>It's become a big part of my practice. It's the

0:49:48.040 --> 0:49:50.279
<v Speaker 1>thing most people are the most people are interested in.

0:49:50.560 --> 0:49:53.840
<v Speaker 1>That's where I get most of my consultations. Now, if

0:49:53.880 --> 0:49:56.759
<v Speaker 1>you're wondering how this surgery works, don't worry. I have

0:49:56.800 --> 0:50:00.160
<v Speaker 1>another upsetting TikTok video that explains it all.

0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:03.279
<v Speaker 6>This nail will be implanted and the patient's steamers to

0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:08.000
<v Speaker 6>perminently make him three inches tallercise nail.

0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:10.239
<v Speaker 1>I always check it and make sure it's nice and

0:50:10.360 --> 0:50:12.560
<v Speaker 1>tight as not lose where we.

0:50:12.520 --> 0:50:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Put it in. Great?

0:50:15.280 --> 0:50:18.920
<v Speaker 1>Does that seem like a reputable medical professional that you Miles?

0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:21.440
<v Speaker 2>No, Also, like what what it looked like one of

0:50:21.480 --> 0:50:24.080
<v Speaker 2>those shitty like closet coat.

0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:27.040
<v Speaker 1>Rat doesn't look as strong as my current bones's kind of.

0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Telescoping, a kind of swimsy.

0:50:28.960 --> 0:50:31.680
<v Speaker 3>Bony like it looks like a drain snake.

0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it looks like a fucking drained snake. That's

0:50:35.960 --> 0:50:39.920
<v Speaker 2>actually your new femur, which is a consequence like the Consequently,

0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:42.960
<v Speaker 2>it's supposed to be the strongest fucking bone in your body.

0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:45.440
<v Speaker 1>It'll be fine, probably, Yeah, yeah, you're good.

0:50:45.560 --> 0:50:45.759
<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, look, dude, you want to be a fucking short

0:50:47.560 --> 0:50:49.640
<v Speaker 2>camp or you want to your whole life?

0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:50.560
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely not?

0:50:50.719 --> 0:50:52.719
<v Speaker 2>Or do you want to finally be there five? Or

0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:54.440
<v Speaker 2>do you finally want to be five to six?

0:50:56.440 --> 0:50:56.680
<v Speaker 5>Now?

0:50:57.080 --> 0:50:59.680
<v Speaker 1>When you read profiles of the guys who get these surgeries,

0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:02.319
<v Speaker 1>they focus heavily on how they are perceived at work

0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:05.279
<v Speaker 1>and by women as shorter men. From an article in

0:51:05.280 --> 0:51:08.440
<v Speaker 1>the New Zealand Herald about one of Mobubian's patients before

0:51:08.520 --> 0:51:11.279
<v Speaker 1>Scott's surgery in January, he was five foot seven and

0:51:11.320 --> 0:51:13.400
<v Speaker 1>said he was constantly ridiculed because.

0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:13.840
<v Speaker 2>Of his stature.

0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:16.640
<v Speaker 1>I was not treated with respect every single workplace I've

0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:19.200
<v Speaker 1>been in. There have been several situations where people commented

0:51:19.280 --> 0:51:21.880
<v Speaker 1>on my height to discredit me entirely as a person.

0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:24.760
<v Speaker 1>The twenty five year old recalled that, coupled with demeaning

0:51:24.800 --> 0:51:27.360
<v Speaker 1>social media and pop culture discourse about men of the

0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:30.399
<v Speaker 1>lesser stature being garden nomes, drove him to seek out

0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:34.640
<v Speaker 1>the seventy five thousand dollars perceives garden. I've never heard

0:51:34.640 --> 0:51:35.160
<v Speaker 1>that in my life.

0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I've never heard that.

0:51:36.120 --> 0:51:38.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying guys who are short don't get shit right,

0:51:38.800 --> 0:51:42.160
<v Speaker 1>especially in school. We all get shipped for something though. Brother,

0:51:42.520 --> 0:51:44.920
<v Speaker 1>there's not a person I know people who are like

0:51:44.960 --> 0:51:49.320
<v Speaker 1>professional models that have horrible insecurities about aspects of your body.

0:51:49.320 --> 0:51:51.520
<v Speaker 1>You would never guess because some dude made fun of

0:51:51.560 --> 0:51:53.960
<v Speaker 1>that part of their body when they were like fifteen. Right,

0:51:54.239 --> 0:51:56.600
<v Speaker 1>that's just life, that's just being a person. You just

0:51:56.640 --> 0:51:59.759
<v Speaker 1>got to deal with it, man, Right, you don't have to.

0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:02.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, hope you hope you have some kind of support

0:52:02.200 --> 0:52:05.439
<v Speaker 2>system around the ability to sort of like take these

0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:08.279
<v Speaker 2>things on without it turning into you know, this ship.

0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:10.120
<v Speaker 2>That's why it's like the kind of sad part about

0:52:10.120 --> 0:52:12.680
<v Speaker 2>all this shit too, is like you don't get there

0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:15.960
<v Speaker 2>because you're just like a dude. Like it's it's multiple

0:52:16.040 --> 0:52:18.080
<v Speaker 2>levels of failure. Then then you sort of add in

0:52:18.120 --> 0:52:20.080
<v Speaker 2>this really fragile mind state.

0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:23.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you probably don't have a lot of like people

0:52:23.160 --> 0:52:25.800
<v Speaker 1>that are just that you care about and there's nothing

0:52:25.840 --> 0:52:29.319
<v Speaker 1>transactional about that relationship in your life who you know,

0:52:29.560 --> 0:52:32.040
<v Speaker 1>maybe you could add because like that's part of how

0:52:32.080 --> 0:52:35.160
<v Speaker 1>you get over insecurities, is like having people who care

0:52:35.200 --> 0:52:37.520
<v Speaker 1>about you and you love that allow you to have

0:52:37.560 --> 0:52:39.279
<v Speaker 1>a sense of that help you build up a sense

0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:41.680
<v Speaker 1>of self worth, that let you realize how irrational the

0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:44.160
<v Speaker 1>things you were obsessed with work exactly. That's like just

0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:46.680
<v Speaker 1>part of becoming a person, you know, is getting that.

0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:49.840
<v Speaker 1>And when people are denied that and the loneliness epidemic

0:52:49.920 --> 0:52:51.560
<v Speaker 1>I think is a part of that, then they do

0:52:51.600 --> 0:52:54.480
<v Speaker 1>shit like pay doctor Maboobi and seventy five thousand dollars

0:52:54.520 --> 0:52:55.560
<v Speaker 1>to get their legs through it.

0:52:56.360 --> 0:52:56.640
<v Speaker 4>Five.

0:52:57.120 --> 0:52:57.920
<v Speaker 2>It's wild.

0:52:58.640 --> 0:53:01.799
<v Speaker 1>That's a nice car. That's like a fully kitted out

0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:04.759
<v Speaker 1>real land Rover from a nice year right, Like, yeah,

0:53:05.120 --> 0:53:07.799
<v Speaker 1>it's like one of like in almost any car worth

0:53:07.840 --> 0:53:09.640
<v Speaker 1>having you can get for seventy five grand.

0:53:09.480 --> 0:53:11.840
<v Speaker 2>I feel like, but nowadays, like seventy five thousands, I

0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:14.439
<v Speaker 2>get like base model Silverado truck.

0:53:14.440 --> 0:53:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, but that's not really worth having, No, I know,

0:53:16.960 --> 0:53:18.040
<v Speaker 1>but I'm just saying, like it's weird.

0:53:18.080 --> 0:53:20.719
<v Speaker 2>How like seventy five thousand.

0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Trailer dot com you can get a fucking left hand

0:53:24.640 --> 0:53:30.000
<v Speaker 1>drive land Cruise and a jay engine from less than that. Yeah, right,

0:53:30.160 --> 0:53:32.799
<v Speaker 1>that'll actually turn heads. Nobody's gonna look at another Silverado.

0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:35.359
<v Speaker 1>Get you one of them Japanese fire trucks. People look

0:53:35.400 --> 0:53:35.759
<v Speaker 1>at those.

0:53:36.080 --> 0:53:39.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what's that? It's like, Oh, this it's actually uh

0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:42.600
<v Speaker 2>it's a Honda Acte. Ever heard of it? No, it's

0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:44.719
<v Speaker 2>a five speed four by four. Yeah.

0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:48.239
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, you can get some of the cheaper unimogus for

0:53:48.280 --> 0:53:50.160
<v Speaker 1>seventy five grand. Those are cool.

0:53:50.680 --> 0:53:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:54.760
<v Speaker 1>So my favorite of these articles was an ABC News

0:53:54.760 --> 0:53:57.239
<v Speaker 1>piece that interviewed a guy and introduced him as someone

0:53:57.280 --> 0:53:59.800
<v Speaker 1>who quote, at first glance, says he could be mistaken

0:53:59.880 --> 0:54:02.600
<v Speaker 1>for Dwayne the Rock Johnson. And I'm not I'm not

0:54:02.600 --> 0:54:04.200
<v Speaker 1>gonna pull up this guy's picture. I'm not going to

0:54:04.239 --> 0:54:06.759
<v Speaker 1>make fun of his looks. But he doesn't. What he

0:54:06.800 --> 0:54:08.840
<v Speaker 1>means by this is that he's super jacked and he

0:54:08.880 --> 0:54:11.480
<v Speaker 1>wears designer clothing. Now, I'm not going to put up

0:54:11.480 --> 0:54:13.120
<v Speaker 1>a picture of the guy, because again, I don't want

0:54:13.120 --> 0:54:15.680
<v Speaker 1>to edge on mocking someone's appearance. But I will laugh

0:54:15.680 --> 0:54:17.640
<v Speaker 1>a little at his explanation for why he felt that

0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:20.920
<v Speaker 1>his natural height five foot nine perfectly average.

0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:22.719
<v Speaker 2>That is not a short man, that is a man

0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:26.600
<v Speaker 2>of normal heights. Okay, right, this.

0:54:26.680 --> 0:54:29.399
<v Speaker 1>Is why he felt his height was insufficient. Quote, I'm

0:54:29.440 --> 0:54:36.240
<v Speaker 1>not average. I don't like to be average. So yeah, man.

0:54:36.520 --> 0:54:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, dude, Like, and I bet guess what, I don't

0:54:39.239 --> 0:54:42.360
<v Speaker 2>even think your little femur extendo that you're about to

0:54:42.360 --> 0:54:44.120
<v Speaker 2>throw on there it might do the I don't know

0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:45.400
<v Speaker 2>if that's going to do the trick either.

0:54:45.600 --> 0:54:47.080
<v Speaker 1>No, man, that's just going to make you a guy

0:54:47.080 --> 0:54:49.279
<v Speaker 1>who's been seventy five grand to ruin his legs. Now

0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:51.040
<v Speaker 1>you can't do squats anymore homemade, And.

0:54:51.040 --> 0:54:52.719
<v Speaker 2>Then what do you do? Like and would a guy

0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:56.200
<v Speaker 2>like that openly tell you know a woman, because again

0:54:56.280 --> 0:54:57.080
<v Speaker 2>it's all about being.

0:54:57.000 --> 0:54:59.840
<v Speaker 1>Like, this guy's got rid of matter, I guess. And

0:55:00.080 --> 0:55:01.560
<v Speaker 1>there's like this thing in the article he's like, well,

0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:03.120
<v Speaker 1>now I can have a kid now that I'm not

0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:05.440
<v Speaker 1>like dealing with the shame of being five foot nine?

0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:07.360
<v Speaker 2>How much how much.

0:55:07.280 --> 0:55:13.920
<v Speaker 3>Does this bonzergery costs on a rege? Seventy five thousand, seventy.

0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:15.920
<v Speaker 2>Five fucking thousand. Honestly, let's do it.

0:55:16.080 --> 0:55:19.600
<v Speaker 3>Just like get there, be in lie on your dating profile,

0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:20.759
<v Speaker 3>add to and we.

0:55:20.719 --> 0:55:22.719
<v Speaker 1>Know you know what, you know what, I'm not going

0:55:22.800 --> 0:55:24.920
<v Speaker 1>to say, there's no women who would prefer to be

0:55:25.040 --> 0:55:27.799
<v Speaker 1>with a guy who's three inches taller than a guy

0:55:27.800 --> 0:55:30.160
<v Speaker 1>who has seventy five grand and a high heeled like

0:55:30.280 --> 0:55:34.360
<v Speaker 1>mutual funder something. But I'm gonna guess the vast majority

0:55:34.400 --> 0:55:36.799
<v Speaker 1>of men and women prefer the person with a degree

0:55:36.840 --> 0:55:40.239
<v Speaker 1>of financial stability to the permanently ruin their legs.

0:55:40.600 --> 0:55:42.759
<v Speaker 2>Right. They're like, hey, you can be with this guy

0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:44.320
<v Speaker 2>who walks like Edgar from.

0:55:44.160 --> 0:55:47.560
<v Speaker 1>Men in Black who's going to have murder arthritis by

0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:48.719
<v Speaker 1>age forty four.

0:55:49.600 --> 0:55:52.240
<v Speaker 2>Or this guy who's five to eight and has seventy

0:55:52.320 --> 0:55:53.839
<v Speaker 2>five thousand dollars in.

0:55:53.800 --> 0:55:55.960
<v Speaker 1>The Some of this comes from the shit you get,

0:55:56.000 --> 0:55:57.879
<v Speaker 1>like with the insults, where they're like, there are these

0:55:58.040 --> 0:56:00.799
<v Speaker 1>locked in stone physical features. If you don't have the

0:56:00.840 --> 0:56:03.160
<v Speaker 1>perfect version of all of them, you will never know love.

0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:05.960
<v Speaker 1>And like again, maybe this is just me coming out

0:56:05.960 --> 0:56:08.840
<v Speaker 1>of like non monogamy communities, but I know so many

0:56:08.920 --> 0:56:11.680
<v Speaker 1>short guys who get laid to a degree that would

0:56:11.680 --> 0:56:14.560
<v Speaker 1>make these people's fucking head oh yeah, right fry and

0:56:14.640 --> 0:56:16.120
<v Speaker 1>like that it's because they know how to do shit

0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:18.880
<v Speaker 1>like drive forklifts, and like they wound up doing like

0:56:19.040 --> 0:56:21.799
<v Speaker 1>ex showing in a public situation that they had some

0:56:21.840 --> 0:56:24.600
<v Speaker 1>sort of cool knowledge and that someone interested in them,

0:56:24.600 --> 0:56:26.440
<v Speaker 1>which is the way most people get.

0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Just walking around walking around with the air of self acceptance. Yes, yes,

0:56:31.239 --> 0:56:33.319
<v Speaker 2>that's not even like you didn't have to demonstrate, like hey,

0:56:33.320 --> 0:56:35.719
<v Speaker 2>I can parallel park a big rig like no, no,

0:56:35.920 --> 0:56:39.239
<v Speaker 2>just if you walk in people notice someone is just

0:56:39.560 --> 0:56:40.520
<v Speaker 2>that not on some.

0:56:40.520 --> 0:56:45.840
<v Speaker 1>Like superficial, super fragile ego shit people. People are generally

0:56:45.880 --> 0:56:47.879
<v Speaker 1>attracted to folks who go out, and this is men

0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:50.400
<v Speaker 1>and women attracted to folks who like do cool things

0:56:50.480 --> 0:56:52.760
<v Speaker 1>in the world. And you can you have with seventy

0:56:52.760 --> 0:56:54.960
<v Speaker 1>five grand you can pay for training to do any

0:56:55.040 --> 0:56:57.279
<v Speaker 1>number of cool things that you don't currently know how

0:56:57.320 --> 0:56:57.600
<v Speaker 1>to do.

0:56:57.920 --> 0:57:00.600
<v Speaker 2>It's even cheaper to be able to laugh at yourself too. Yeah,

0:57:00.640 --> 0:57:02.319
<v Speaker 2>that's another underrated quality that.

0:57:02.239 --> 0:57:04.680
<v Speaker 1>People being this kind of guy who is like so

0:57:05.200 --> 0:57:08.640
<v Speaker 1>angry at his being five foot nine that he destroys

0:57:08.640 --> 0:57:14.759
<v Speaker 1>his physical health for life. Like yeah, anyway, So grifters

0:57:14.840 --> 0:57:17.440
<v Speaker 1>like the Cartilage Company and doctor Maboubian are products of

0:57:17.480 --> 0:57:19.680
<v Speaker 1>a society with a lot of access to easy money

0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:22.400
<v Speaker 1>and deep, widespread and security on behalf of the people

0:57:22.400 --> 0:57:24.680
<v Speaker 1>with the most of it. When the Great Depression hit,

0:57:24.760 --> 0:57:27.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot of these vanity products and magazine shilling them

0:57:27.720 --> 0:57:30.160
<v Speaker 1>collapsed because no one had the money to pay for

0:57:30.240 --> 0:57:33.640
<v Speaker 1>this kind of bullshit. Widespread unemployment also had a negative

0:57:33.640 --> 0:57:35.640
<v Speaker 1>impact on the self and image of many men. And

0:57:35.680 --> 0:57:37.440
<v Speaker 1>this was like a period where you actually saw this

0:57:37.520 --> 0:57:41.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of crisis and masculinity spread away from the kind

0:57:41.400 --> 0:57:44.880
<v Speaker 1>of moneyed educated class to like working classmen, right, And

0:57:44.960 --> 0:57:47.440
<v Speaker 1>for a reason that is much more sympathetic, you know,

0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:50.080
<v Speaker 1>than a guy feeling like he's not tall enough. It's because, like,

0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:54.080
<v Speaker 1>suddenly I can't support my family, right, And the only

0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:56.320
<v Speaker 1>thing that's ever given me a sense of worth in

0:57:56.360 --> 0:57:58.880
<v Speaker 1>the society is that I can support my family, right,

0:57:58.920 --> 0:58:00.880
<v Speaker 1>and that I have a lot of sims for right,

0:58:01.040 --> 0:58:03.440
<v Speaker 1>like that you're not a that's not evidence of like

0:58:03.440 --> 0:58:06.479
<v Speaker 1>a personal weakness, that's the society itself being sick.

0:58:06.640 --> 0:58:06.880
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:58:08.600 --> 0:58:13.480
<v Speaker 1>There's documentation of this. Sociologist Mira Komarovsky interviewed families of

0:58:13.480 --> 0:58:16.320
<v Speaker 1>fifty nine unemployed men from the winter of nineteen thirty

0:58:16.320 --> 0:58:18.880
<v Speaker 1>five to thirty six, and she described that men who

0:58:18.880 --> 0:58:21.520
<v Speaker 1>had lost their role as provider and their self confidence

0:58:21.560 --> 0:58:24.680
<v Speaker 1>with it tended to isolate themselves. They pulled out of

0:58:24.720 --> 0:58:28.320
<v Speaker 1>men's lodges in unions and stopped socializing even with family.

0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Sexual activity also plummeted although this may have just been

0:58:31.640 --> 0:58:34.400
<v Speaker 1>a way of saving money because condoms weren't really that

0:58:34.480 --> 0:58:35.400
<v Speaker 1>much of a thing, you know.

0:58:35.440 --> 0:58:39.160
<v Speaker 2>At the time. Ooh rich, yeah, god, yeah.

0:58:39.160 --> 0:58:41.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can afford to have sex and not make

0:58:41.160 --> 0:58:42.560
<v Speaker 1>more kids that you can't pay for.

0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:58:44.120 --> 0:58:47.080
<v Speaker 1>Now, what I found really interesting about this this study

0:58:47.160 --> 0:58:50.480
<v Speaker 1>is something that with Kowski summarizes here, men out of

0:58:50.480 --> 0:58:53.240
<v Speaker 1>work were underemployed had additional time on their hands. A

0:58:53.240 --> 0:58:56.800
<v Speaker 1>wide selection of inexpensive home leisure activities, from playing solitariy

0:58:56.840 --> 0:59:00.800
<v Speaker 1>to assembling jigsaw puzzles to building model kits became quite popular.

0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:04.280
<v Speaker 1>Considering the meaning of hobby consumption, young and young observed

0:59:04.440 --> 0:59:07.440
<v Speaker 1>their most important contribution during the depression years was a

0:59:07.440 --> 0:59:10.360
<v Speaker 1>capacity to impart a sense of self worth to the hobbyist.

0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:13.080
<v Speaker 1>Jobs might be scarce, but working hard at a hobby

0:59:13.120 --> 0:59:15.680
<v Speaker 1>fulfilled the need for self esteem. That's what a person

0:59:15.760 --> 0:59:17.560
<v Speaker 1>that what a person was doing had value, and that

0:59:17.600 --> 0:59:20.680
<v Speaker 1>the hobby itself took attention away from the economic difficulties

0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:23.560
<v Speaker 1>of the day. I kind of I find this interesting

0:59:23.600 --> 0:59:25.960
<v Speaker 1>because it's like, this seems to be sort of hinting

0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:28.080
<v Speaker 1>at the role that gaming, which is today the most

0:59:28.080 --> 0:59:31.000
<v Speaker 1>popular hobby for young men in our culture was going

0:59:31.040 --> 0:59:34.680
<v Speaker 1>to play in radicalization, right, because when you lose, when

0:59:34.720 --> 0:59:36.800
<v Speaker 1>you feel like you don't have you can't do any

0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:38.840
<v Speaker 1>of the things that make you amend. You're not making

0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:40.840
<v Speaker 1>enough money to take care of anyone. In a lot

0:59:40.880 --> 0:59:42.560
<v Speaker 1>of cases, you don't have a family to take care of.

0:59:43.000 --> 0:59:43.120
<v Speaker 2>You.

0:59:43.160 --> 0:59:45.200
<v Speaker 1>Saw back in the Great Depression, a lot of the

0:59:45.280 --> 0:59:48.520
<v Speaker 1>men experiencing this turn towards like hobbies and games. And

0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:52.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that's unrelated to what's happening now to

0:59:52.840 --> 0:59:55.800
<v Speaker 1>shit like Gameragate, right, I think there is a line there, right.

0:59:55.800 --> 0:59:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, if you aren't able to demonstrate some

0:59:59.040 --> 1:00:03.000
<v Speaker 2>ability of being potent and with whatever financial options you

1:00:03.040 --> 1:00:05.840
<v Speaker 2>are you have, then yeah, fuck it, dude, Like I'm

1:00:05.880 --> 1:00:08.600
<v Speaker 2>going to prestige a bunch of characters and call of duty,

1:00:08.840 --> 1:00:10.720
<v Speaker 2>or I'll build a ship in a bottle.

1:00:11.800 --> 1:00:13.880
<v Speaker 1>It's this also the sense of like, you know, these

1:00:13.920 --> 1:00:17.240
<v Speaker 1>guys in the Depression had had the again, their whole world,

1:00:17.320 --> 1:00:19.320
<v Speaker 1>their job cut out from under them, and a lot

1:00:19.320 --> 1:00:22.200
<v Speaker 1>of young men in our society their good jobs just

1:00:22.240 --> 1:00:24.960
<v Speaker 1>haven't ever existed, right, There's never been the hope of

1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:26.920
<v Speaker 1>being able to like get a house for yourself, of

1:00:26.960 --> 1:00:29.360
<v Speaker 1>being able to like raise kids. That's just not a

1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:32.280
<v Speaker 1>practical thing. And then you pair that with a lot

1:00:32.360 --> 1:00:35.040
<v Speaker 1>of the isolation you know that the Internet image has

1:00:35.080 --> 1:00:39.200
<v Speaker 1>brought on upon young men. And yeah, I'm not surprised.

1:00:39.600 --> 1:00:42.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm not surprised that the first big explosion of like

1:00:43.040 --> 1:00:45.880
<v Speaker 1>organized angry young men as a political force in our

1:00:45.960 --> 1:00:48.960
<v Speaker 1>culture came out of gaming right. It's not weird.

1:00:49.120 --> 1:00:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, not at all.

1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:53.360
<v Speaker 1>No, And Steve Bannon was one of the first guys

1:00:53.400 --> 1:00:56.440
<v Speaker 1>to realize that this was on the offing. In twenty fifteen,

1:00:56.520 --> 1:00:58.880
<v Speaker 1>in the immediate wake of gamer Gate, he saw the

1:00:58.920 --> 1:01:01.720
<v Speaker 1>angry young men who'd been so easy to rile up, harass,

1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:04.520
<v Speaker 1>and threaten young female developers as a ready base of

1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:08.280
<v Speaker 1>support for Trump's nascent campaign. He bankrolled and supported the

1:01:08.320 --> 1:01:11.760
<v Speaker 1>career of early influencers like Milo Eanopolis, who had gotten

1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:14.760
<v Speaker 1>their start making mediat a service the community of enraged

1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:19.160
<v Speaker 1>video game nerds Gamergate had started to organize. Now Eanopolis

1:01:19.200 --> 1:01:22.560
<v Speaker 1>is still unfortunately kind of with us. He pivoted successfully

1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:25.240
<v Speaker 1>to the alt right, which as a cultural product, was

1:01:25.280 --> 1:01:28.560
<v Speaker 1>a direct descendant and refinement of the basic elements present

1:01:28.600 --> 1:01:32.720
<v Speaker 1>in Gamergate. This cultural product was wildly successful at thrusting

1:01:32.720 --> 1:01:35.360
<v Speaker 1>a lot of these tactics for manipulating mass media and

1:01:35.440 --> 1:01:39.520
<v Speaker 1>harassing opponents into silence into mainstream Republican politics. And that's

1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:41.600
<v Speaker 1>a dark thing on its own. But there was a

1:01:41.720 --> 1:01:44.600
<v Speaker 1>darker side to Gamergate because the communities the alt right

1:01:44.680 --> 1:01:47.760
<v Speaker 1>came out of had only been momentarily useful to guys

1:01:47.840 --> 1:01:51.600
<v Speaker 1>like Bannon. He wanted power, and Milo and other influencers

1:01:51.640 --> 1:01:53.680
<v Speaker 1>who kind of came up as a result of his money,

1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:56.600
<v Speaker 1>wanted an audience of people who weren't just freaks mailing

1:01:56.640 --> 1:01:59.560
<v Speaker 1>dead animals to girls they hated. They left those guys

1:01:59.560 --> 1:02:02.720
<v Speaker 1>behind as they started courting senators and governors, but the

1:02:02.720 --> 1:02:05.800
<v Speaker 1>fever swamps remained, and the people inside them did not

1:02:05.960 --> 1:02:09.920
<v Speaker 1>handle abandonment and the passing of their cultural moment well. Now,

1:02:10.240 --> 1:02:12.360
<v Speaker 1>one of the websites that came out of Gamergate was

1:02:12.400 --> 1:02:15.080
<v Speaker 1>eight chan. Right, Gamergate really gets kind of started being

1:02:15.160 --> 1:02:18.360
<v Speaker 1>organized in four chan. Four Chan eventually kicks these guys

1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:21.120
<v Speaker 1>off for all of the harassment and law breaking, and

1:02:21.200 --> 1:02:24.440
<v Speaker 1>so eight chan gets created in like twenty fourteen as

1:02:24.480 --> 1:02:26.560
<v Speaker 1>a place for these people as refugees to go, and

1:02:26.640 --> 1:02:30.640
<v Speaker 1>eight chan very quickly becomes a place dedicated to harassment right,

1:02:30.720 --> 1:02:34.200
<v Speaker 1>particularly to harassment of women, and one of the board's

1:02:34.240 --> 1:02:37.120
<v Speaker 1>poll gets more extreme than that. It becomes just a

1:02:37.120 --> 1:02:39.680
<v Speaker 1>straight up place for Nazis to organize on the internet.

1:02:39.680 --> 1:02:42.600
<v Speaker 1>And I was the journalist following this, right, I was

1:02:42.640 --> 1:02:44.480
<v Speaker 1>the guy who was really reporting on a lot of

1:02:44.480 --> 1:02:47.720
<v Speaker 1>this stuff before most other people got around to it.

1:02:47.760 --> 1:02:51.640
<v Speaker 1>So I watched from twenty fourteen or so to twenty

1:02:51.760 --> 1:02:55.880
<v Speaker 1>nineteen as these people went from like guys who were

1:02:55.920 --> 1:02:58.720
<v Speaker 1>really angry about women in their online spaces and games,

1:02:58.760 --> 1:03:02.040
<v Speaker 1>to guys who were talking about wanting to mass murder migrants,

1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:05.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, who are like non white and creating genocide,

1:03:05.960 --> 1:03:09.320
<v Speaker 1>right or doing a white genocide by moving to other countries.

1:03:09.920 --> 1:03:11.800
<v Speaker 1>This kind of culminated, I'm sure a lot of people

1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:14.480
<v Speaker 1>are aware in the christ Church mass shootings and several

1:03:14.480 --> 1:03:17.320
<v Speaker 1>mass shootings that followed in twenty nineteen in Pawe and

1:03:17.320 --> 1:03:21.360
<v Speaker 1>Alpaso in the United States. The Buffalo shooting was related

1:03:21.400 --> 1:03:22.760
<v Speaker 1>to all of this, you know. There have been a

1:03:22.760 --> 1:03:25.960
<v Speaker 1>couple others, one in Norway that got stopped. And when

1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:27.760
<v Speaker 1>I was writing about this at the time, I used

1:03:27.760 --> 1:03:30.680
<v Speaker 1>a term called the gamification of terror to describe the

1:03:30.720 --> 1:03:34.280
<v Speaker 1>process by which young men socialized largely online in games,

1:03:35.280 --> 1:03:37.960
<v Speaker 1>used things like Twitch in first person cameras to stream

1:03:38.000 --> 1:03:38.680
<v Speaker 1>their massacres.

1:03:38.760 --> 1:03:38.880
<v Speaker 3>Right.

1:03:38.920 --> 1:03:41.720
<v Speaker 1>It was taking now all of these elements that had

1:03:41.720 --> 1:03:43.760
<v Speaker 1>been present in the gaming that had kind of brought

1:03:43.760 --> 1:03:47.040
<v Speaker 1>them together and putting it into these real world massacres,

1:03:47.160 --> 1:03:50.320
<v Speaker 1>right because it made them in part, it made them

1:03:50.360 --> 1:03:53.240
<v Speaker 1>more familiar. It made it feel like something that was

1:03:53.280 --> 1:03:56.080
<v Speaker 1>more a natural outgrowth of what they were already doing,

1:03:56.360 --> 1:03:58.320
<v Speaker 1>and it was just something they understood. It was the

1:03:58.360 --> 1:04:02.960
<v Speaker 1>way that they communicated, and it, you know, all of

1:04:02.960 --> 1:04:05.240
<v Speaker 1>this was very surprising to people at the time, the

1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:07.800
<v Speaker 1>idea that like someone would stream in first person video

1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:10.560
<v Speaker 1>of them shooting women and children in a mosque. But

1:04:10.640 --> 1:04:13.960
<v Speaker 1>if you followed these people, it really wasn't strange at all.

1:04:14.080 --> 1:04:15.960
<v Speaker 1>You know, it was the only way things were ever

1:04:16.040 --> 1:04:18.760
<v Speaker 1>going to go. And that's kind of what's scariest to

1:04:18.800 --> 1:04:21.439
<v Speaker 1>me about it, is like there's a lot more that's

1:04:21.560 --> 1:04:23.720
<v Speaker 1>like that of like, well, we can all tell anyone

1:04:23.760 --> 1:04:27.960
<v Speaker 1>who's following knows where this shit's going next, right, and

1:04:28.000 --> 1:04:30.320
<v Speaker 1>there's just nothing to do. It feels like, but like

1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:34.120
<v Speaker 1>watch the ship's head towards the rocks anyway, Miles, that's

1:04:34.120 --> 1:04:35.280
<v Speaker 1>the episode that's part one.

1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:39.720
<v Speaker 2>How are you doing U as usual? When we end

1:04:39.760 --> 1:04:41.840
<v Speaker 2>part one of a two part I feel optimistic. I

1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:44.800
<v Speaker 2>think we're going to turn around. In part two, all

1:04:44.880 --> 1:04:49.240
<v Speaker 2>the guys therapy and maybe and.

1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:51.160
<v Speaker 1>All the girls get to be not near any of

1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:51.760
<v Speaker 1>those guys.

1:04:51.920 --> 1:04:55.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and maybe in part two Robert will pronounce the

1:04:55.080 --> 1:04:56.400
<v Speaker 3>guy's name Milo. We don't know.

1:04:57.040 --> 1:05:00.720
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't matter. Fuck that guy, Yeah, fuck that guy.

1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:05.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, I don't care. Doesn't matter, It doesn't matter.

1:05:05.280 --> 1:05:08.520
<v Speaker 1>I almost talked about Davis Areni today, but I decided

1:05:08.560 --> 1:05:11.600
<v Speaker 1>not to. Maybe next time, friends, Maybe next time.

1:05:11.640 --> 1:05:12.840
<v Speaker 3>How's you have anything you want to plug?

1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:14.440
<v Speaker 1>Uh?

1:05:14.520 --> 1:05:18.720
<v Speaker 2>Check me out every day just lamenting about uh not lament.

1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:22.880
<v Speaker 2>That's celebrating are the downfall of our society. And also

1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:25.320
<v Speaker 2>funny stuff too on the daily Zeitgeist, which is fun

1:05:25.360 --> 1:05:26.720
<v Speaker 2>with Jack O'Brien. Check that out.

1:05:26.840 --> 1:05:32.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, hell yeah, Well, anyway, we're done, go to help.

1:05:35.760 --> 1:05:38.680
<v Speaker 3>Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1:05:38.840 --> 1:05:41.439
<v Speaker 3>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

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<v Speaker 3>Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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<v Speaker 3>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

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<v Speaker 3>Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

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<v Speaker 3>and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

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<v Speaker 3>At Behind the Bastards