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Speaker 1: Also media What Mendez My Brothers. I'm Robert Evans, the

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Speaker 1: host of Behind the Bastards, a podcast where every week

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Speaker 1: I sit down with Miles Gray and go sitting Mendez

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Speaker 1: brother show.

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Speaker 2: How are we feeling?

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Speaker 1: A one? That one all hot for each other one,

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Speaker 1: the one where Javier Bardem is their dad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of reasons to have issue

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Speaker 1: with that. I know the brothers have have taken issue

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Speaker 1: with that show's depiction. I will say I think it

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Speaker 1: fundamentally shows the killing as justified. Because if I walked

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Speaker 1: into a house, any house I just rewatched No Country

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Speaker 1: for Old Men and saw Javier Bardem there, I'm opening fire,

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Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, Like it's not even about the other stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's just about like that, Like he's terrifying.

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Speaker 2: Exactly if I would, I could go to a fucking

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Speaker 2: like fundraise charity fundraiser for orphaned children, and if he

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Speaker 2: was hosting, I'd be like, dude, lighting him up. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: I cannot sheathe my blade until it has spilled.

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Speaker 1: He could have a cattle boat gun anywhere anywhere, and

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Speaker 1: even if you handcuffed that son of a bit, he

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Speaker 1: could get you.

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Speaker 2: No he's freaky. He's freaky, he's terrifying. He's a terrifying man.

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Speaker 3: He was in that movie Vicky Christina Barcelona, and he's supposed.

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Speaker 1: To say he that he was. He was charming in

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Speaker 1: that movie by a pedophile.

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Speaker 2: Supposed to be.

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Speaker 3: But I was like, no.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's a deticted by Woody Allen. Yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: stumbling blocks detected.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: You know who's not terrifying or who is terrifying but

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Speaker 1: terrifyingly talented is Miles Gray, who already introduced I don't

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Speaker 1: know why I'm doing. How are you doing today, Miles?

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Speaker 2: I'm great, Robert, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing good? Miles, you're a maafy.

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Speaker 2: I got to ask you the Lakers, are you feeling good?

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Speaker 2: Based on what JJ Reddick the same?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I really appreciate that he's feeling so confident,

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Speaker 3: but I'm not. I'm not I'm not feeling I'm not

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Speaker 3: feeling discouraged.

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Speaker 2: That's what we do. That's what we do is like

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Speaker 2: your fans. Okay, sorry I had to just interject that famously.

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Speaker 2: All men.

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Speaker 1: You know, Miles, you're a man, a man, manly a man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So there. A lot of us are men, and I

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Speaker 1: think if you're a man whose brain is not putting,

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Speaker 1: you've probably had the feeling often in the last like

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Speaker 1: five or six years where you'll like see something about

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Speaker 1: young people and like what influencers your popular today, like

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tate, and go like.

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Speaker 2: What the fuck's happening with dudes? Right? What's going on?

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Speaker 2: Something awry?

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Speaker 1: And this this feeling is kind of uh exacerbated by

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Speaker 1: the fact that I feel like every year or so,

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Speaker 1: each of the big publications The Atlantic, the Washington Post,

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Speaker 1: you know, the New York Times and New York Times

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Speaker 1: magazine will do like a masculinity and crisis article right

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Speaker 1: where they're they're trying to talk about, like why are

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Speaker 1: men getting more conservative?

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Speaker 2: What's wrong with young men?

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to look into that, and specifically I wanted

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Speaker 1: to look into like the history of moral panics over

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Speaker 1: masculinity in the United States, because this is a spoiler,

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Speaker 1: about every thirty years, all of the columnists in the

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Speaker 1: country get convinced that masculinity is in crisis. And this

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Speaker 1: has been happening for roughly one hundred and twenty years.

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Speaker 2: Oh so it's the same as like nobody wants to

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Speaker 2: work these Yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: This is exactly that kind of thing. There's some slight

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Speaker 1: changes in how it gets expressed based on the time,

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Speaker 1: but what hasn't changed is that every time there's a

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Speaker 1: crisis of masculinity, a crop of grifters rises up to

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Speaker 1: make a bunch of money off of the fact that

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Speaker 1: men don't feel good about being men anymore. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about that this week. This is a

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Speaker 1: week where we talk about the man fluencers, a word

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Speaker 1: I'm going to use a lot, even though no one

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Speaker 1: likes it. Nobody feels good about the term manfluencer. We

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Speaker 1: all kind of yeah, how do you feel about manfluencers?

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Speaker 1: I don't care the episode started.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean fine. I look, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about every time I agree to

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Speaker 2: be on the show. So I'm just glad it's something

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Speaker 2: that I've personally invested a lot of my own money,

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Speaker 2: and so I feel like maybe I can bring a

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Speaker 2: little bit of balance to this conversation, just like you, Robert,

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Speaker 2: just tear down the whole fucking movement. Bro.

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Speaker 1: Now that you've admitted you never read our emails about

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Speaker 1: the subject, I'm excited to have you on For our

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Speaker 1: new episode, Miles reads a series of actionable threats that

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Speaker 1: elected officials.

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Speaker 2: Dear Senator Schumer, whoa, what's this one about?

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Speaker 1: Wow, Miles, you came with his address. I didn't even

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Speaker 1: have that in a script.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that. Somebody's just asked me to look

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Speaker 2: up a name.

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Speaker 1: We all love Chuck Schumer. I assume or love you anyway. Cold, open, done,

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Speaker 1: We're back, We're hot now open has begun.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I say top, I'm concerned about men, like.

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Speaker 1: Concerned about men. We're all concerned about men.

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Speaker 3: Just to say, because men are concerning.

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Speaker 2: We are. Yeah, they are my sister. Yeah, I do.

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Speaker 1: Feel Miles, you and I are you?

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Speaker 2: When were you born? Oh? Wow? You never ask You

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Speaker 2: never ask a bro his age, dude, first rule of

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Speaker 2: man food.

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Speaker 1: Well, Miles, your face doesn't show it, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the day, the exact same birthday. It's Harry. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I just turned forty years old. Oh really, I wouldn't guess.

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Speaker 3: I literally remember that you are his birthday twin every time,

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Speaker 3: every time.

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Speaker 1: Everything.

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Speaker 2: That's because a lot. I really think.

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Speaker 1: I because I graduated in two thousand and six from

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Speaker 1: high school, and I think I was in a sweet

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Speaker 1: spot that like only lasted for a couple of years

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Speaker 1: where we I think very briefly really just for the

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Speaker 1: last two years of high school, things kind of were

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Speaker 1: very healthy with young men compare compared to how they

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Speaker 1: were before and after. There was a switchover that happened

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Speaker 1: between junior high and senior high for me, where when

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Speaker 1: I was in middle school. In junior high, like I

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Speaker 1: would get bullied a bunch for being the kid who

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Speaker 1: had like D and D books or whatever, or you know,

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Speaker 1: I played Warhammer and shit, like I got.

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Speaker 2: Hating Warhamer Warhammer figure fifteen fifteen.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, like that didn't go well for me. And

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Speaker 1: then when I was in my junior year, World of

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Speaker 1: Warcraft came out and suddenly all of that stopped. And

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Speaker 1: it was right at the same time that like people

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Speaker 1: started getting a little less shitty and then suddenly a

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Speaker 1: lot less shitty towards like queer kids in school. There

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Speaker 1: was this like brief period where all of the trends

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Speaker 1: for and I think I was I was kind of

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Speaker 1: right on the cusp of it because I just noticed

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Speaker 1: that all of the weird kids stopped getting as much shit.

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Speaker 1: When I was about sixteen years old. It doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: like that lasted very long.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I remember

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Speaker 2: in high school we used to we used to give

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Speaker 2: swirlies to the D and D kids.

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Speaker 1: I got, I've got some swirlies until I until I

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Speaker 1: had a growth spur at around age fourteen, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly like I was too big for swearing.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I got a lot of terrible eye infections

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Speaker 2: as a result of those rough days day in my

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Speaker 2: early years. But I think I know you mean because too,

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Speaker 2: like there was also like for my age, it was

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Speaker 2: like Eminem was also like the guy who was rapping

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Speaker 2: and you were just hurling the f for it around

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Speaker 2: like with abandoned.

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Speaker 1: We let him and m get away with a lot

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Speaker 1: a lot folks. I threw me a couple of his

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Speaker 1: songs the other day and I was.

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Speaker 2: Like, Jesus Christy, what wow, this man was out of pocket.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but that was the thing you

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Speaker 2: get like, you know, but if you're like a black

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Speaker 2: guy doing that, then they'll be like, we need to

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Speaker 2: talk about censoring music. But then you're not liked. Eminem, Mom,

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Speaker 2: lovem mom, Eminem Yo. My mom didn't But my mom

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Speaker 2: also didn't. I don't. I don't think my mom knew

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Speaker 2: who Eminem was probably until eight mile and she's like

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Speaker 2: the white guy from the rapping movie. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, so Miles, a few days before I sat down

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Speaker 1: to write these episodes of videos sarted going viral. And

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Speaker 1: this is not the first time I've seen this video

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Speaker 1: go viral. It's happened at least once more like a

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Speaker 1: year or so earlier. But it shows a you may

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Speaker 1: have seen it. It shows a group of soggy men

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Speaker 1: in their late twenties to early thirties standing by the

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Speaker 1: ocean holding sledgehammers awkwardly like, while a dude who appears

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Speaker 1: to be about twenty percent trendblone acetate and creatine by

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Speaker 1: body weight curls abuse at them, And I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: going to show you a segment of that clip, and

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Speaker 1: before I do, you should know that each of the

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Speaker 1: wet dudes getting yelled at paid twelve thousand dollars for

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Speaker 1: a three day course. So everyone's standing there getting screamed

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Speaker 1: at has settled out twelve grand for the experience.

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Speaker 4: You don't fucking deserve to be here, fucking quick, you

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Speaker 4: piece of shit. I want to be a better man.

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Speaker 4: I want to be a better husband, I want to

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Speaker 4: be a better father. I want to be a better

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Speaker 4: You fucking whiney piece of shit. None of you deserve

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Speaker 4: to be here by move with a purpose belly.

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Speaker 2: Ah.

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Speaker 3: But that's embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: That's that's just embarrassing. That's just embarrassing. These guys can't

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Speaker 2: even like lift the sledgehammers and they're just no, please

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Speaker 2: abuse me.

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Speaker 1: No, Sophie, I do think you should click the first

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Speaker 1: link that I gave you and show that video too,

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Speaker 1: now that now that we've seen the first one, because

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Speaker 1: these are all fun.

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Speaker 3: So for the first one that I had kep the

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Speaker 3: first time, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just I just love watching then pay

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Speaker 1: money to get screamed at and know that like every

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Speaker 1: dom that I know would charge a lot less and

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Speaker 1: then you'd be with the pretty lady exactly. It's just

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Speaker 1: a much better deal.

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Speaker 2: And someone who smells good and takes seriously right.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy this, and like, if you know, if you know

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Speaker 3: any of these guys, please tell them to see their dermatologists,

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Speaker 3: because I see a lot of.

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Speaker 2: One man.

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Speaker 1: Not incredible way to spend twelve thousand dollars the way that.

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Speaker 3: They understood when he was like, belly, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can buy if you're this kind of guy.

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Speaker 1: For one thing, the very nicest firearms that exist in

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Speaker 1: the country, you can all buy for less than twelve

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Truly, you can buy a pretty good Toyota

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Speaker 1: Prius for twelve thousand dollars. You can just have twelve

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars and not get screamed at for twelve thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: There's so much you can do with twelve thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Put that in a high yield savings account, right, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Put it under your bed, any anything, but spend it

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Speaker 1: to get screamed at.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, by some guy who's fucking dad failed him. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: let's just repeat the cycle together, guys. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, this is a video from the Modern Day Night Project,

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Speaker 1: which exists take upper middle classmen who have money but

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Speaker 1: no sense of self worth and put them through an intense, unpleasant,

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Speaker 1: but also short and manageable experience so they feel like

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Speaker 1: real men. Their website even includes a very depressing banner

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Speaker 1: ad right at the top that says attention, The Modern

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Speaker 1: Day Night Project is only for entrepreneurs, executives, and leaders. Wow,

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Speaker 1: your family deserves the best version of you as a leader,

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Speaker 1: husband and father. Your family also deserves twelve thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Now, this is all This whole course is based on

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Speaker 1: a kind of the public understanding of something called Hell

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Speaker 1: Week that the Navy Seals do, which basically, if you're

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Speaker 1: going to become a Navy Seal, there's a part of

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Speaker 1: the training that's a week where you spend all of

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Speaker 1: your time doing very miserable, tortuous exercises generally in and

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Speaker 1: around the ocean and like not really sleeping, and it sucks.

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Speaker 1: But it's also part of like job training, right, Like

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Speaker 1: you are training to do a job that you will

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Speaker 1: be paid four as opposed to paying twelve thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: And it's also I think there's a lot you could

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Speaker 1: one can debate is Hell Week really necessary for training

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Speaker 1: Navy Seals. What you can't debate is that, like Navy

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Speaker 1: Seals go on to do a thing as a result

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Speaker 1: of this experience, as opposed to nothing at all.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you get to fight in America's imperial fighting forces.

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Speaker 2: This one you just go and just fucking scream at

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Speaker 2: your partner.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's this there's this misunderstanding too, and it's

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Speaker 1: this is we get the same thing with like boot camp,

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Speaker 1: right where people focus on like shit they saw in

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Speaker 1: Full Metal Jacket, you know, the drill sergeant screaming these

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Speaker 1: creative insults at you, all the like mental and physical abuse,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, wow, that's what makes soldiers and ignore

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Speaker 1: the fact that, like both for Navy Seals and for

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Speaker 1: regular soldiers, the getting yelled at is a small part

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Speaker 1: of like months and admit, in the case of the

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Speaker 1: Navy Seals, like literally years of like learning technical stuff

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Speaker 1: like how to use explosives, how to use firearms in

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Speaker 1: different ways, how to do all of the weird boat

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Speaker 1: shit that you have to do as.

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Speaker 2: A name you me, and the like.

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Speaker 1: There's a bunch of actual technical training that is a

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Speaker 1: much bigger part of the whole experience than getting screened at.

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Speaker 1: And then when you finish getting trained, you get to

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Speaker 1: go do that job instead of going back to selling

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Speaker 1: used cars and encino. Now, I don't think there's a

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Speaker 1: big point in me critiquing these places on like merit though,

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Speaker 1: because the Modern Day Night Project and so many other

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Speaker 1: boot camp style programs for adult men are part of

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Speaker 1: a network of what you can call manfluencer programs, all

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Speaker 1: of which capitalize on the feelings of inadequacy and weakness,

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Speaker 1: but seem to be endemic among mostly white dudes who

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Speaker 1: have more money than self confidence. When you look at

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Speaker 1: the marketing materials around all of the products in this category,

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Speaker 1: you see a couple of things over and over again.

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Speaker 1: Modern society has made it nearly impossible to be masculine,

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Speaker 1: and this is literally killing men. That's how this is

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Speaker 1: all framed. And here's a clip from their big advertisement

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Speaker 1: video on their website that honestly looks like it was

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Speaker 1: coded in two thousand and eight. It looks like the

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Speaker 1: Dredge Report.

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Speaker 5: It's like administering chemotherapy to a cancerous area of the body,

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Speaker 5: and it's going to unearth and expose who you are.

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Speaker 5: The physical challenging that you go through is purpose driven.

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Speaker 5: Every single evolution is purpose driven. Every single evolution creates

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Speaker 5: opportunity for four things to lead, to show emotional discipline,

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Speaker 5: to communicate, and.

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Speaker 2: To problem solve.

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Speaker 5: So the project is here for a purpose to help

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Speaker 5: you become the man you know in your deepest heart

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Speaker 5: that you're meant to be. And all we're going to do,

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Speaker 5: is instructors over the next seventy five hours, is administer

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Speaker 5: the project no different than a doctor would administer chemotherapy

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Speaker 5: to a cancerous body part.

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Speaker 2: This is so fucking stupid, dude.

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Speaker 3: Yeah the music though.

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Speaker 2: I casu.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my parents both died due to complications from chemo.

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Speaker 1: So for one thing, Like, I don't know, bro, Chemo's

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Speaker 1: not really like, are these guys in such a Are

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Speaker 1: these guys admitting that by doing this, they're in such

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Speaker 1: a desperate strait that they will literally die if a

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Speaker 1: man doesn't scream at them on a beach. Because I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's their issue. I think their issue is

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Speaker 1: they didn't do a job that led to them shooting people.

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Speaker 1: And because our media entirely almost because like a lot

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Speaker 1: of media, particularly the media guys like this consume, entirely

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Speaker 1: focuses on violets as like a way to prove your masculinity,

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Speaker 1: they have no way to feel like they're men.

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Speaker 2: Right. Violence is a love language. Actually is what we

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Speaker 2: want to give the men who are in dire need

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Speaker 2: of chemo?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or as I say, fo, yeah, amazing stuff. You

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Speaker 1: could you would do a much better job by just

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Speaker 1: giving them chemo. Right, that's a real near death experience.

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Speaker 2: Seriously, and even like the irony too of like chemo

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Speaker 2: like decades ago, where they're like, this might this radiation

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Speaker 2: might come boomerang back around in a few decades and

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Speaker 2: cause like serious illness again, other ganzer, this could be Also, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, it might help now, or maybe you're

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Speaker 2: going to raise somebody who's going to turn to a

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Speaker 2: mass murder. I don't know what.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, non zero number of these guys took their sons

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Speaker 1: out to the beach the next week and made them

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Speaker 1: hold a sledgehammer while they screamed down right right, here's

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Speaker 1: another segment from that video.

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Speaker 5: The blood, so people spilled together who go through adversity together,

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Speaker 5: is thicker, creates a bigger bond, a deeper bond than

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Speaker 5: the water of the womb, meaning people who have shared

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Speaker 5: the same womb. The blood of the covenant is thicker

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Speaker 5: than the water of the womb.

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Speaker 2: Cool. Now, what what the fuck?

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Speaker 3: Man? What a cool?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: This is a covenant? Right? Do any of these men

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Speaker 2: even understand the gestational process either? They're like, there's it's

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Speaker 2: water womb? Was that? What was that part? Again?

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Speaker 1: This is we're calling this a covenant because everyone paid

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Speaker 1: twelve grand to get yelled at on the beach together.

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Speaker 1: That's a fucking covenant.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, you better god for twelve grand. They better be

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Speaker 2: calling it a fucking covenant. Yeah, if it's just like

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Speaker 2: a bunch of cool guys and hanging out getting pissed

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Speaker 2: on and then and then it ain't. It doesn't sound

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Speaker 2: as good. It's funny.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously what they're playing with here is something

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Speaker 1: very real, which is that, like, when you experience actual

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Speaker 1: trauma and adversity with a group of people, it can

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Speaker 1: in fact bond you to them, right, the idea of

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Speaker 1: having and there's it's very attractive to a lot of

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Speaker 1: them in this idea that like I can go through

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Speaker 1: this very manageable version of the experience. That it is

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Speaker 1: not so like actually joining the military and fighting is

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Speaker 1: not a manageable experience, which is why so many people

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Speaker 1: who do it wind up killing themselves later, right.

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Speaker 2: Sure, or coming back and being like, do not do that.

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Speaker 2: Don't do that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't not man it, Like whatever you want to

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Speaker 1: call it, it's not.

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Speaker 2: War, and it's not fucking worth it.

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Speaker 1: It is a chaotic and dangerous thing to do, right,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to this, which is not really all that dangerous.

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Speaker 1: And then the danger of a guy who is taking

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Speaker 1: like black market fucking gear having his heart explode as

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Speaker 1: he does fucking sledgehammer push.

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Speaker 2: Ups or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Right, but this idea that like, you can do this

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Speaker 1: very manageable thing that really just costs money and takes

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Speaker 1: three days. And then there's this large, you hope, influential

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Speaker 1: group of men that you share an intense bond with, right,

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Speaker 1: that is attractive to a kind of guy, a fairly

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Speaker 1: normal kind of guy today, because it's very normal for

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Speaker 1: men today to be overwhelmingly lonely. A study by the

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Speaker 1: Survey Center on American Life in twenty twenty one found

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Speaker 1: that one in five single American men report having no

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Speaker 1: close friends. And that's a catastrophe that really is like

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Speaker 1: an existential threat because when you have young men who

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Speaker 1: are miserable, it's very easy to convince those young men

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Speaker 1: to do terrible things. This has been a problem for

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Speaker 1: all of human history.

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Speaker 2: See the cycle happen a lot of time. Yeah, like

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Speaker 2: you got bored young men or people who have taken

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Speaker 2: up arms previously and have nothing to do, and like Hey,

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Speaker 2: what do you guys, What are you guys up to? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Nothing, miserable and alone paying twelve grand to get screamed

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Speaker 1: at on the beach?

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Speaker 2: A yeah, twelve four So what my math? Three four

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Speaker 2: grand a day four granted to day something like yell

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Speaker 2: dad on the beach and you I think you're entering

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Speaker 2: some fucking covenant, yeah, with other people who have the

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Speaker 2: same terrible problem solving skills you do, or you thought

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Speaker 2: this was the way out of whatever your problems were,

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Speaker 2: and then you think you're gonna be able to open

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Speaker 2: up to the guy who said you're a piece of

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Speaker 2: shit over and over when you have any kind of

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Speaker 2: problem that might need any kind of nuanced advice. Yes, yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: sign me up. Yeah, someone lend me twelve grand. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, there's a very good vice article on these camps

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Speaker 1: and on the Modern Day Night Project in particular by

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Speaker 1: Brendan Burrs. It does pretty good job of describing some

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Speaker 1: of the sorts of guys who find programs like this

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Speaker 1: appealing and why I'm going to quote from that now.

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Speaker 1: The first time that victrm Diel, a thirty nine year

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Speaker 1: old real estate agent in recent divorce, met bedros Kluian

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Speaker 1: he was at a three day business workshop hosted by Coluian.

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Speaker 1: Seeing Kluean's tattooed sleeve, his square set jaw, listening to

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Speaker 1: his gruff, gravelly voice, dial thought, this is a man

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Speaker 1: I want to be like. His thoughts kept tumbling. Am

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Speaker 1: my man, crushing crushing this dude? Holy shit. This is

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Speaker 1: a good example of what you call the shallow appeal

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Speaker 1: of this program and the men who run it. Right,

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Speaker 1: these guys all look like the Special Forces dudes I

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Speaker 1: watch in movies. I wish I was that kind of guy,

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Speaker 1: because I've kind of been taught that that's the only

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Speaker 1: way to be that has any value now. Feeling that way,

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Speaker 1: it's not something to be proud of, but I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say it's shameful. It's extremely common. Most men go through

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Speaker 1: a period of time where they're like, I either should

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Speaker 1: try to find a way to go fight or I

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Speaker 1: wish I had right. That's not an uncommon experience for men,

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot to be said about the idea

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Speaker 1: that like it's probably healthy. As a society, you have

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Speaker 1: various rituals that are widely recognized that like signify the

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Speaker 1: passage into adulthood, that like societies that build something like

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Speaker 1: that in avoid some problems that we have in our society.

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Speaker 1: I'm not against that idea. I just think you probably

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have to pay twelve grand for the privilege ye know.

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Speaker 2: Yes, barrier to entry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, now. Brindan writes about another attendee, Keith Schmidt,

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Speaker 1: a forty nine year old veteran and firefighter who was

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Speaker 1: struggling with.

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Speaker 2: Mental health issues. Quote.

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Speaker 1: He had his demons childhood trauma full of sexual, physical

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Speaker 1: and mental abuse, plus PTSD from serving in the military.

441
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: But he'd shoved that crap down somewhere deep, shut off

442
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 1: from the rest of him, because, as he'd always been taught,

443
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,199
Speaker 1: that's what a man does. A man doesn't cry, a

444
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,959
Speaker 1: man compartmentalizes. If a man accessed any emotion, it was anger,

445
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 1: a fuel Schmidt knew too well. He first described its

446
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 1: power when his grade school teacher, Miss McGrath, told him

447
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 1: one day that he wouldn't amount to anything more than

448
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: a garbage man. Fuck you, he responded, He'd get back

449
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: at Miss mcgraf, his mother who belittled and hit him,

450
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 1: the mentor who molested him. He'd get back at all

451
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 1: them with the sweet revenge of success, and like that

452
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,880
Speaker 1: is so sad, because that is a man in desperate

453
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 1: need of like mental health care that twelve grand could

454
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: provide a lot of them.

455
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 2: Oh by a lot of good therapy for twelve thousand

456
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: gree for four grand one day, one day's cost of

457
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: that scream ode camp. Did you put that into therapy? Yeah?

458
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: Shit, he might make progress, right, and Schmid is one

459
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: of the guys who will claim repeatedly that this program

460
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,479
Speaker 1: improved his life, maybe even saved it. And who am

461
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 1: I to argue with him here?

462
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 2: Right?

463
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 1: There isn't much point anyway, because as silly as these

464
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: programs and the ones like them are, they're not the

465
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 1: most poisonous outgrowth of what is an industry devoted entirely

466
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: to the crisis of American masculinity. Right, Unlike the most

467
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: influential voices in this industry, guys like Andrew Taate Kluean

468
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: isn't tricking guys into an MLM or so far as

469
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: I can tell, ranting about race science and the evils

470
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 1: of the Nineteenth Amendment. He's just selling them the fantasy

471
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 1: that the problems are rooted in the fact that their

472
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 1: lives don't share enough of the aesthetics of an action

473
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: movie from twenty eleven, right.

474
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is funny because you know, the irony to

475
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: me is that this whole obsession with seal boot camp

476
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: that's from g I Jane, It sure is. That's a

477
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 2: lot of a fucking movie where a woman of God

478
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: through that, like Buds training for seals, and that was

479
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: I think one of the very first mainstream depictions we

480
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 2: got of what Bud's training looked like for a Navy seals.

481
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 2: So it's interesting too that we're also referencing a movie

482
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,800
Speaker 2: to define masculinity that was about this woman who went

483
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: through it and became a Navy seal. And it's like, yeah, dude,

484
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 2: like that man, But.

485
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: For us it's so and it's such a Again, I

486
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: have a lot of friends who served, particularly in like

487
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. Probably the closest friend I have who

488
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: did and who then went on to fight like described

489
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: it to me because I asked him about boot camp

490
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: and he like, his description was so very different this

491
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 1: kind of shit. He was like, Oh, it's a game.

492
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: It's like a very silly game, and you realize the

493
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: rules of the game early on, and you realize that

494
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 1: like most of the instructors. The ones who aren't out

495
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,479
Speaker 1: of their mind are playing a game too, and if

496
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: you play along, then like you can get the thing

497
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 1: that you want out of it, which is being done

498
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: with it, right, That was his attitude. I also have

499
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: a friend who shot himself in boot camp, So, like

500
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: boot camp contains, people have wide varieties of reactions to it,

501
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: But just the idea that you would voluntarily pay money

502
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: to have this experience is fucking nuts to me.

503
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 2: Yeah right, I mean it's convenient too to think that,

504
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: Rather than interrogate your own beliefs or trauma that might

505
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: be informing like where you're at in life, it's just

506
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: easy to be like, yeah, dude, I think I just

507
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 2: give this maniac twelve grand and twelve thousand dollars and

508
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: I don't even get to fire a fucking machine gun. No, no,

509
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: but I can hold a sledgehammer for five minutes above

510
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 2: my head. Yeah. Yeah.

511
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,120
Speaker 1: A lot of my friends who went through boot camp

512
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 1: got to fire an automatic grenade launcher, which is worth

513
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: twelve Now that's that's approaching a twelve thousand dollars experience.

514
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, we got to use a China Lake mar nineteen. Yeah.

515
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: Now, a writer who isn't me, but whose name I

516
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: have long since forgotten. MUD's described kind of what we're

517
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: seeing with these camps as cargo cult masculinity. Now, if

518
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: you haven't heard the term cargo cult, there's a couple

519
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: of things that can mean. It's actually a much more

520
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: complicated term than it usually gets boiled down to generally

521
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: when people reference it. They're talking about a specific cult

522
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: called the John Froome Colt, which was found, like spotted

523
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: in a bunch of Melanesian islanders after World War Two.

524
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: And the gist of what had happened is for years

525
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: during the war they'd been gotten air drops of supplies

526
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: as like soldiers had billeted on the island, and a

527
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: bunch of the shit that was sent to those soldiers,

528
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: including Western food and technology they hadn't seen before, like

529
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: wound up getting you know, being accessible to the locals

530
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: as well. Right when the US pulled out, some locals

531
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: engaged in this kind of cultic behavior, trying to emulate

532
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: some of the practices they'd seen soldiers engage in. They'd

533
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: done like parade ground marches with like faked rifles carved

534
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: out of wood. They've ritually used these kind of like

535
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: handwave landing signals and fake control towers and stuff. They'd

536
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: like carved headphones from wood to try to reenact what

537
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: they'd seen the soldiers doing that had brought the planes,

538
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: right because they didn't really understand fully what was happening.

539
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: Because these are people that just had not been a

540
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: part of the technological world prior to World War Two. Right, So,

541
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: cargo cult masculinity is people applying that same kind of

542
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: logic to the idea of being a man. Right, You're

543
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: carving the headphones out of wood to try to pretend

544
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: like you're in a man tower because you don't understand

545
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: what it actually is that's going. Like you want the

546
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 1: sleeve tattoos and the beard, and you want to like

547
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: own the gun that you saw in the movie because

548
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: you don't actually understand what it means to be a man.

549
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: There's nothing to it to you, but like these kind

550
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: of signifiers, right. Right, So this week we're going to

551
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: be talking about the men who have made servicing this

552
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: cargo cult into an industry, and to talk about where

553
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: that industry started, we're going to have to go back

554
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: a century or so to a time when modern masculinity

555
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: gurus assure us men were real men who worked hard,

556
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: didn't complain, avoided seed oils, and went over to Europe

557
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: to fight in World wars every couple of years. Yeah,

558
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: fuck it, we'll be talking about the seed oils guys later. So,

559
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: speaking of seed oils, you know you won't make you

560
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,719
Speaker 1: take a seed oil because seed oils kill your penis.

561
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: Uh me.

562
00:26:51,160 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: Oh, and our advertisers, we're back, We're back. And hey,

563
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: if you want to kill your penis, you know, because

564
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: fucking vast deference getting those clipped is expensive, just eat

565
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: some seed oils. I guarantee you can't get someone pregnant

566
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: if you eat seed oils. You can show you the

567
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio Corporation if you get pregnant after eating seed oils.

568
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: That's a promise. You know, that's a ton of rubber

569
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 2: bands too. You'd probably do it that too.

570
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: You can, in fact do that lot. So the early

571
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds is like in man Fluencer lingo, like this,

572
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: this is the ideal time to be a man, right,

573
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: this is when everything was better today. If you like,

574
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: listen to these guys talk about what went wrong with men.

575
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: They'll talk about like the first half of the twentieth

576
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: century is like almost this perfect time, right, men were men,

577
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: everything was better, And this is largely because their attitudes

578
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: of what it was like for men in this period

579
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: of time came entirely through the lens of film and television.

580
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: So it might surprise people to learn that the nineteen twenties,

581
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: you know, the turn of the century to the nineteen twenties,

582
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: was the site of our first real crisis of masculinity

583
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: in the United States. Now my main source here is

584
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: an excellent article on what's called male compensatory consumption by

585
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: Terrence Witkowski for the Journeral of Macro Marketing. It starts

586
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: by making the case that back during the colonial period,

587
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 1: popular notions of masculinity tended to focus on either the wealthy,

588
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: slaveholding heads of planter dynasties or men's like Jefferson's mythic

589
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: yaloeman farmer right heroic artisans, which is the term what

590
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: Kowski uses, who lacked wealth but were skilled, physically strong,

591
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: and wealth and self reliant. By the early eighteen hundreds,

592
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: this had started to morph into a recognizable phenomenon, the

593
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: cult of the self made man. By the end of

594
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: the century, the American ideal had solidified into something still

595
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: very recognizable to us, the independent homesteader or small business owner,

596
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: carving a place for himself out of the wild frontier

597
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: or the chaos of the city. Nearly all man influencers

598
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: today model themselves on one of these two archetypes. In fact,

599
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: these attitudes have been so consistent that back in the

600
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, psychologist named Robert Brandon summarized the four themes

601
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: of masculinity in American society. Number one, no sissy stuff.

602
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: Number two Wait, actually, yes, yes, it's basically he's like

603
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: it's scared of being scared of being gay.

604
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: Right.

605
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: Like that's a I mean, I think he's got it

606
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: on the money. Right, fear of like being seen as

607
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: gay is a big attitude of like masculinity.

608
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: Yes, love it. Number one, no sissy stuff.

609
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: Number two the big wheel right, that's a reference to

610
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: the need to be the provider, right, this the source

611
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: of wealth and financial success that like, the people in

612
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: your life are reliant on. Number three the sturdy oak. Right,

613
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: that's like the protector defender of your family. And number

614
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: four give him hell right, this need to be seen

615
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: as like a fighter. You know, to some extent at

616
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: least capable of fighting for for yourself and your family

617
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: and whatnot. Now, this understanding of the American man was

618
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: the product of generations. It was a thing that was

619
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: like formed over time, a great deal of time and

620
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: a great deal of like media.

621
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: Right.

622
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: But it met its first existential conflict during the tail

623
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: end of the Victorian era, ironically as a result of

624
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: the strict separation of women and men's spheres of existence

625
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: during that period. Terrence Witkowski writes the late Victorian era

626
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: doctrine of separate spheres, where husbands left for work in

627
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: factories and offices while they're somewhat sequestered wives managed household consumption,

628
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: meant that mothers monopolized the better part of child rearing,

629
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: and boys lacked the benefit of close male supervision they

630
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: once had when most fathers worked closer to home. Moreover,

631
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: women were taking charge of public education, at least in

632
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: the lower grades, and thus further socializing boys in non

633
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: manly ways. According to gender alarmists, So this first panic

634
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: about gender in the US comes about at the end

635
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: of the eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, as suddenly people

636
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: are like, wait a second, women are raising all of

637
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: the kids and they're teaching them too, They're going to

638
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: teach them how to be women.

639
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you know how that works? Women no women

640
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: things nol today?

641
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: Boy ah, why did we send all of harmn off

642
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: to die in coal factories? It is interesting that also, like,

643
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: and this is up to the present day, all of

644
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: these crises and masculinity start with as a result of

645
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: like danger bad things capitalism does. Because right, it is

646
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: bad for like children to never see their dads because

647
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 1: they're working in the poison factory.

648
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: You know, Like that's terrible, yeah, right, and why is that? Well,

649
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: you know, they have to exploit his labor.

650
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: Since a day standing in a pile of cyanide up

651
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: to my nipples.

652
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: Couldn't raise we discovered apples for lunch.

653
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this brings me to the most influential right

654
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: wing moral panic of the modern era, because I think

655
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: it relates exactly to the kind of panic you saw

656
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: at the turn of the nineteenth century. And I'm talking

657
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: about gamer Gate. Now, if you happen to be under

658
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: a rock or too old or too young to spend

659
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: time in places like four chan during gamer Gate, I'm

660
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: gonna summarize what happened.

661
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: I missed out. Yeah, terrible. You guys lost it. You

662
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: were just talking about that sweet spot and six we

663
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: had about eight years. So a young man got angry

664
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 2: at his ex girlfriend, who was a female games developer

665
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: who had made a video game about depression. I'm not

666
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: using their names. You can find them easily.

667
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: I just think these people have had their names stuck

668
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: out there often enough. He alleged that she had slept

669
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: with a gaming journalist and she had dated a guy

670
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: at a website called Kotaku. Now that guy had not

671
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: written about her game. He had like quoted her once

672
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: in an article before they started dating, but he had

673
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: not actually reviewed her game, which is what they claimed

674
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: the whole problem was, right that this was proof of

675
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: this insidious women are sleeping with men and it's polluting

676
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: the hobby right like, it's causing all of these games

677
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: to get unfair reviews.

678
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: Right now.

679
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: What it actually happened is that gaming had become the

680
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: most popular form of recreation in the country, and that

681
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: also made it popular among women and men who weren't assholes,

682
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: and this led to a broadening of what games could be.

683
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: You really saw in this period of the early offs,

684
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: this like explosion and all these independent games that had

685
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: very different ideas on like what gaming ought or like

686
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: what a game could be that did not comport with

687
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: the big Triple A games and stuff that had been

688
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: huge in the past, and like these games didn't stop

689
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: there from being Triple A games where you murder people.

690
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: That's still the most common kind of video game. In fact,

691
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: I just finished replaying Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven. Games where

692
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: you murder people are better than ever. We've gotten so

693
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: good at games where you murder P've perfected it.

694
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, now you can be pretty much any three letter

695
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: agency you want to be too, Like, there's probably a

696
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 2: game four that too.

697
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a game for whatever kind of murder you

698
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 1: want to commit. Guys, you're fine. Yeah, but yeah, there

699
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: was this attitude that like women were ruining games, and

700
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: it's really it is the same fears, like, well, because

701
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: men need to make money, and they need specifically to

702
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: make money by laboring in factories and offices. Because we

703
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: have changed the economics of the country in a way

704
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: that's more efficient and profitable for a very small small

705
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: number of people. Right only the people taking care of

706
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: kids are women, And now we're going to have express

707
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: this panic towards the idea that like, that's going to

708
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: make men womanly? Right, Well, what happens at gamer Gate,

709
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: and it's it's a much more kind of autocathonic, you know,

710
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: raised from within the community sort of experience rather than

711
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: something imposed outside by these kind of moral busy bodies.

712
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: But you do have a lot of people who are

713
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: scared that like, oh, if women are involved in gaming,

714
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: it's going to change gaming, right, and that's going to

715
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: destroy the only place that men have to really be

716
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: men anymore.

717
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 2: The only place. It's one of the things you.

718
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: See if you read, like if you go back to

719
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: a lot of those original posts on four Channet, the

720
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: start a gamer Gate is this attitude that like, the

721
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: only place I socialize and like meet friends is in

722
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: like the lobbies of different games, and if there are

723
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: women there, if I don't feel free to use slurs

724
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: or make the kind of jokes I used to, then

725
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: there's like, no, this is a harm to me. I

726
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: am who am right?

727
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? If I'm a white teenager who likes to use

728
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 2: the hard r N word while proban call of do,

729
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: then I have no I have no soul anymore.

730
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and obviously the claims that they made that

731
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: like this was about ethics and video game journalism, this

732
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: was about like, you know, corruption in these companies. That

733
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: was all bullshit, but they very successfully use that as

734
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: a screen right. And so when when it became clear

735
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: to the media that they needed to report on gamer Gate,

736
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: an awful lot of journalists did fall for well, let's

737
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: talk about how valid the allegations are as opposed to

738
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: let's look at the harassment campaign that's being executed. And

739
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: as a result, no one did anything about the harassment campaign,

740
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: and that harassment campaign has gone on to become the

741
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: standard right wing playbook for how to do everything. This

742
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: is the only way conservatism really works in the United

743
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: States anymore. I found a succinct explanation for how these

744
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: these efforts are carried out in a courts article by

745
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: Rve Waldman. Quote. The gamer Gate playbook is simple and direct. First,

746
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 1: identify a vulnerable target, usually a woman, person of color,

747
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: a member of the LGBTQ community. Then highlight their vulnerabilities

748
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 1: that disaffected, mostly white young men can attack them. Continue

749
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: the attacks until someone pushes back or the platform of

750
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: choice shuts it down. Now, if you've spent any time

751
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: online today. You've just watched the right wing panic over

752
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: DEI as it's led to teachers being harassed out of

753
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: jobs and schools closed by bomb threats. This is all

754
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: the Gamergate playbook, right, which is again entirely how the

755
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: right wing culture war machine works these days. Now, we're

756
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: going to talk about how that happened later, because this

757
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 1: was very much an intentional process, right. There were people

758
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: from the beginning who saw the potential in utilizing this

759
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: community of angry young men this way. He's in jail

760
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 1: right now, I think, Yeah, he is in jail still currently,

761
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: mister Bannon. Yeah, we'll be chatting about him a while.

762
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: And it's one of these things I've been reporting about

763
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: stuff downstream of Gamergate for years. I brought it up

764
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: on the show a lot. I didn't realize until recently

765
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: that back in the early nineteen hundreds there was this

766
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 1: fear over female teachers and like moms raising their sons,

767
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: that really is.

768
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: It's the same.

769
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: There's girls in this space that should just be and

770
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: it's going to ruin boys, you know, we have to do.

771
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: And it's the fault of the women right who have

772
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: forced themselves into these areas right in both cases. It's

773
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: just like capitalism saw that a lot of women are

774
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: buying video games. You know, capitalism put men in factories.

775
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: Right, where's the market, where's the labor? There we go off,

776
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: you go.

777
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: We're going to be kind of flitting back and forth

778
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: from the past to the future here. You know, I

779
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: just felt like that was the best way to do it.

780
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: Hopefully people will be relatively fine with this. But to

781
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 1: return to the nineteen hundreds, right, once the suffragette movement

782
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: started picking up steam, the kind of men who didn't

783
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: trust the concept of a female teacher got even weirder.

784
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 1: And I'm going to continue with a quote from Witkowski here.

785
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: Their presence challenged those men who felt deserving of political entitlement.

786
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: During the bicycling craze of the eighteen nineties, women constituted

787
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: about a third of the market and thus became a

788
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: visible kinetic reminder of changing gender norms. And this gets

789
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: us miles to one of my favorite moral panics in

790
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 1: American history, the panic over girls and bicycles. Now, the

791
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: gist of the issue is that with bicycles, single women

792
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: were for the first time able to travel large, long

793
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: distances on their own right, like and without needing to

794
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: have a lot of money. Right, if you have a bike,

795
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: you could travel on your own and you could travel

796
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: quite far. You need to have horse money. You need

797
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: to have a guy who will let you use a horse.

798
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: You don't need need carb money, right, you just need carbohydrates, right, yeah,

799
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: you just need calories.

800
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: Now.

801
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: This change happened during a general boom and employment for women.

802
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: So suddenly women are working and they are taking themselves places.

803
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: And also the necessities, you know, just the physical realities

804
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: of how bicycles work led to changes in women's clothing.

805
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: This is part of why the layered and complex women's

806
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,799
Speaker 1: wear the Victorian era went away, right, because it's just

807
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: not as convenient when you're cycling, right, And this is

808
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 1: bicycle is one of the things that led to women

809
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: wearing pants. It's not the only, like that's a more

810
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: complicated story than that, but bicycles are a significant part

811
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: of that.

812
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 2: Right. Do you think there are like some terrible accidents

813
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: where they're like, look, honey, if you're going to ride

814
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: a bike, you wear your gigantic skirt with underskirt stuff,

815
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: and that's not gonna get stuck caught in the chain

816
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: or anything. Don't worry about it. Yeah.

817
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you've got you can't get out go out

818
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: the door with less than thirty pounds of whalebone on

819
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: your body.

820
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 2: No, no, no, before you get on that two wheeled abomination. Yeah.

821
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: And obviously, like it gets the degree to which Victorian

822
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: clothing was like, where's like these insanely complicated. That gets

823
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: exaggerated some, but it's generally agreeable that like the fact

824
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 1: that cycles are in the mix now is part of

825
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: why it becomes more common for women to wear stuff

826
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: like pants. Right now, this all of this freaks out

827
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and this generation of medical grifters

828
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: of like doctors who see that men are really not

829
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: happy with women bicycling, rise up to kind of profit

830
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: off of that right. And these are guys who are like,

831
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: I can explain you're not happy with this because you

832
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: just don't like women doing things, but I'm going to

833
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: come up with a medical justification for why you're really

834
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: in the right for not wanting women to wear but bicycles.

835
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: They started arguing, there's like papers on this that bicycles

836
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: literally change women's skeletons, cursing them with bicycle hand or bicycle.

837
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 2: Foot, bicycle, hand bicycle hand? Where was the grifter who's like, oh,

838
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: I hate I mean, I know you think I'm lying.

839
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: Come over here, check this out. Our bicycles on your hand?

840
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 2: A fuck? Wait what am I looking at? It's a hand,

841
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: it's a hand bicycle.

842
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: It's a hand with some muscles on it. You know,

843
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: she's not just she's not just sitting in a room

844
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 1: with yellow wallpapers waiting to die.

845
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: Those are some thick thumbs. Yeah, grip that shit. Oh no.

846
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 1: In an article for McGill University's Office for Science and Society,

847
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 1: Jonathan Jerry Wrights, it was thought that women were mentally

848
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: and physically impaired by the demands of their reproductive apparatus

849
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: and menstruation cycles. Riding around on a tricycle was considered fine,

850
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: but on a strenuous bicycle why it might cause a

851
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: woman's finite physical energy to be extinguished. Medical journal at

852
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 1: the time would seek out anomalies linked to bicycle writing

853
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: and confuse an association with a cause and effect relationship,

854
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: although perhaps the confusion was a little bit voluntary. Writing

855
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: a bicycle could cause appendicitis. They reported internal inflammation and

856
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: swelling off the throat from all the excitement, and teenage

857
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: girls whose reproductive system was still developing were thought to

858
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: be at risk of displacement of the uterus, physical shocks,

859
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: and all sorts of bodily transformations brought about by the

860
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: bicycle that would render them unable to bear children. Now today, Miles,

861
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: if you're an awful crank with a terrible opinion, you

862
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: can probably get the New York Times to write a

863
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: very sympathetic profile of you, if you went to a

864
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: good school with the New York Times reporter. Back in

865
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety four, the Times was still at the cutting

866
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 1: age of endorsing nonsense. That year, they published an article

867
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: titled Lunacy in England. It argued, quote, there is not

868
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 1: the slightest doubt that bicycle riding, if persisted in, leads

869
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: to weakness of mind, general lunacy and homicidal mania.

870
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: General lunacy, general lunacy, just general lunacies.

871
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: Kind of catch up, Yeah, it did. I mean, it

872
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: is true that when you add cars to the mixed

873
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: bicycles do cause some people to become a homicidal but

874
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: it's not the cyclists in general.

875
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, no, no, not at all. No, she's

876
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 2: general lunis I love that. Yeah, those are my favorite

877
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: terms when like you could just grift off of just

878
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: sort of like a I'm going to combine some words.

879
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously you understand what I'm saying, lunacy, but general.

880
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 2: So if I ever see something like, well, that woman,

881
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: she's stronger than me, it's like, well, general lunacy has

882
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 2: obviously taken over from the confidence you got on a bicycle.

883
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the problem.

884
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: Though, now, Michael Miles, in nineteen twenty, women had come

885
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 1: to make about twenty percent of the workforce. We know

886
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: women had always been a massive part of the economy,

887
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: that now they held formal jobs in a world of

888
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: offices and factories that had been nearly all male since

889
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: their inception. This caused another panic, one that resembles modern

890
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 1: panics over migrant workers, as employers realized women could handle

891
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 1: a lot of the same jobs that men could, and

892
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: they could pay women half as much for their labor.

893
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: Right.

894
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: It is weirdly, like very similar to the panic you

895
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: get over migrants, and it's all focused on the fact

896
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: that capitalists again are seeing like, well, we can just

897
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: have women do the same things and pay them half

898
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: as much like, there's no no one's going to get

899
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 1: angry at us fucking over these ladies and men start

900
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: getting pissed that, like, women are taking these jobs that

901
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,439
Speaker 1: used to be held by specifically, this is not factory work.

902
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: Women aren't replacing men in coal mines. This is jobs

903
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: that had been held by educated men, right, like bookkeepers

904
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: in stores. Right, these guys are a lot of these

905
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: men are replaced by women and cash registers in the

906
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: eighteen eighties. The actual impact in the daily lives of

907
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: male workers would have been small, because only about a

908
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: third of employed men in nineteen ten worked for companies

909
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: with a workforce that was more than five percent female.

910
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: But because of the kind of men whose jobs were

911
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: disrupted and the kind of men who feared they'd be next,

912
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: were white collar types. The cultural response to this disruption

913
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: was an obsession with manliness, right, and it came about

914
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,479
Speaker 1: in a large part as a result of like guys

915
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: who worked for newspapers expressing the anxieties of their class,

916
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: of like educated men who didn't get their hands sturdy

917
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: right Witkowski rights. Social historians have contended that many American

918
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: men engaged in myriad forms of gendered consumption behavior to

919
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: compensate for threats to their masculinity by an increasingly administrative

920
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,760
Speaker 1: and allegedly feminized culture. As Rotundo put it, when changes

921
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: in the workplace caused men to feel uncertain of their manhood,

922
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: their primary response was to seek new forms of reassurance

923
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: about it. Strenuous recreation, spectator sports, adventure novels, and a

924
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: growing cult of the wilderness all served this need, right,

925
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: And this is a period of time we've talked about

926
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 1: Bernard McFadden, right, the manliness guru who came out with

927
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: Physical Culture magazine, which is kind of the first like

928
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: muscle magazine. You know, he comes out in the early

929
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds. He's very much writing this wave Teddy Roosevelt,

930
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, to an extent, a lot of his popularity

931
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 1: comes out of this, right, because he's this stereotypically manly

932
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: men who is in a lot of ways not just

933
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: like a presidential candidate, but an ideal of masculinity for

934
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: a lot of men. You know, in this you read

935
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: of anxiety a lot. Yeah, I'm hunting big game in Africa.

936
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 2: You're like, whoa a man.

937
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: I'm a fucking I'm a fucking Like basically a guy

938
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: whose job used to beat a count shit at a

939
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: general store, and now I don't have a job. You know,

940
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to fucking fantasize about being like Teddy Roosevelt,

941
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: and I'm going to get into weightlifting, you.

942
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: Know, exactly, throw a handlebar mustache. Yeah.

943
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: Now, these guys are followed very quickly by a swarm

944
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: of grifters selling products guaranteed to make insecure men feel

945
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: more like Bernar or Teddy. This included a variety of

946
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: quack products that feel extremely modern in the present day.

947
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: Here's what Kowski again. K Leo Minges of Rochester, New

948
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: York founded the Cartilage Company to peddle up a dubious

949
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: stretching program using arcane machinery that promised to increase men's

950
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: stature up to several inches. His company advertised heavily in

951
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: national publications such as Munzies magazines and Popular Mechanics, and

952
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: in many other print vehicles featuring headlines such as how

953
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: I Grew Tall, How to grow tall and broaden your shoulders,

954
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: and from nineteen oh four, every Woman Admires a Tall Man.

955
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: The illustrations often showed women towering over short men, and again,

956
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 1: you see like what the what's really happening here? This

957
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: is not a widespread anxiety. Guys who are coal miners

958
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: are not insecure about their masculinity. It's like short dudes

959
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: who work in the city and feel like, Ah, women

960
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 1: are taking the jobs that I thought would be safe

961
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: for me. And also I feel scared around them because

962
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: my mom never let me talk to women until she

963
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: died when I was twenty eight. And I just don't

964
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: understand how to deal with the world right.

965
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: And I'm so frightened now, And I think all these

966
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: other men I'm around, they're using these machines to lengthen

967
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 2: their corporal right side.

968
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: I could get taller too by buying this machine from

969
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: the fucking from a magazine up.

970
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

971
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: Now, none of this machinery worked right, But in the

972
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: twenty first century, Miles, we've come around to actually having

973
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: a way. You can do this right. Making yourself taller

974
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: is with it. As long as you've got money you

975
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: can in fact pay to get taller, and an unthinkable

976
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: tolerance for pain.

977
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a massive yeah.

978
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: If you are willing to permanently injure yourself and forever

979
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 1: be less physically capable in every way that matters.

980
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: Hey, man Tallery, you want to be taller? You down?

981
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: Just one question? Man, you down with bone extensions?

982
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: What? Yes, Miles, that's where we're going here. I want

983
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: to introduce you to one of my favorite TikTok accounts,

984
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: height Like Though, with one hundred and twenty three thousand

985
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: followers and almost six million likes. This is the account

986
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: for doctor Shahab Mabubian, probably the top name and funniest

987
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: name in surgical height enhancement. Today, let's take a look

988
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: at one of his most popular videos with seven point

989
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: three million views and like half a million likes. I

990
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: want to warn you now that watching and hearing this

991
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: video made me want to die.

992
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 6: He underwent the height lengthening procedure on his famous last

993
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 6: week to permanently get three inches taller.

994
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: Oh, great content, incredible stuff.

995
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: Thank you TikTok.

996
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 1: Now in that TikTok, my favorite like response to the

997
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: video itself was one guy just saying, one guy Captain B.

998
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: Maxwell saying that sounds painful honestly and bad for the bones.

999
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: And yeah, good news, captain. You are correct. This is

1000
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: bad for the bones.

1001
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 2: What was.

1002
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know why that decision was made.

1003
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: But doctor Mabubian seems to be making enough money that

1004
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: I yeah, yeah, he knows his business. Dancing ironically a

1005
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: thing you won't be doing once you get leg extensions.

1006
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 2: They tell you you'll you'll absolutely void the warranty on

1007
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: you if you deign to dance like.

1008
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: As now speaking of Cissy's no, sorry, here's ads. We're

1009
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: back miles. So obviously, leg lengthening I didn't start out

1010
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: as a grift for insecure men. Like the surgery itself

1011
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: comes from a good place, which is there are men

1012
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: who are born with one leg like longer than the

1013
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: sure other, right, and that right, I mean I have

1014
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: a cousin who's got this and like, yeah, it messes

1015
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: up like the way that you walk, right, and having

1016
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: a surgery that can deal with that. The trade offs

1017
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: can be worth it, right, or if you've been injured seriously,

1018
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: you know, as the result of like a lot of

1019
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: guys get injured in war, right, and they wind up

1020
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: after they get rebuilt with one leg shorter than the other,

1021
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: and maybe they'd want to do this right in that case,

1022
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 1: the trade offs are, at least for some people worth it, right,

1023
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,760
Speaker 1: And that's what the surgery was used for for decades,

1024
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: but within the last fifteen to twenty years, enterprising doctors

1025
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: like Mabubian have realized how much money there is and

1026
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: taking advantage of insecure men.

1027
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 2: He told BuzzFeed.

1028
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: It's become a big part of my practice. It's the

1029
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: thing most people are the most people are interested in.

1030
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: That's where I get most of my consultations. Now, if

1031
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: you're wondering how this surgery works, don't worry. I have

1032
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: another upsetting TikTok video that explains it all.

1033
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 6: This nail will be implanted and the patient's steamers to

1034
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 6: perminently make him three inches tallercise nail.

1035
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: I always check it and make sure it's nice and

1036
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 1: tight as not lose where we.

1037
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 2: Put it in. Great?

1038
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: Does that seem like a reputable medical professional that you Miles?

1039
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: No, Also, like what what it looked like one of

1040
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: those shitty like closet coat.

1041
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: Rat doesn't look as strong as my current bones's kind of.

1042
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 2: Telescoping, a kind of swimsy.

1043
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 3: Bony like it looks like a drain snake.

1044
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it looks like a fucking drained snake. That's

1045
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: actually your new femur, which is a consequence like the Consequently,

1046
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be the strongest fucking bone in your body.

1047
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: It'll be fine, probably, Yeah, yeah, you're good.

1048
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1049
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: Well, look, dude, you want to be a fucking short

1050
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 2: camp or you want to your whole life?

1051
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely not?

1052
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 2: Or do you want to finally be there five? Or

1053
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 2: do you finally want to be five to six?

1054
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 5: Now?

1055
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: When you read profiles of the guys who get these surgeries,

1056
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 1: they focus heavily on how they are perceived at work

1057
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: and by women as shorter men. From an article in

1058
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: the New Zealand Herald about one of Mobubian's patients before

1059
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: Scott's surgery in January, he was five foot seven and

1060
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: said he was constantly ridiculed because.

1061
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 2: Of his stature.

1062
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 1: I was not treated with respect every single workplace I've

1063
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: been in. There have been several situations where people commented

1064
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: on my height to discredit me entirely as a person.

1065
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: The twenty five year old recalled that, coupled with demeaning

1066
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: social media and pop culture discourse about men of the

1067
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,399
Speaker 1: lesser stature being garden nomes, drove him to seek out

1068
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: the seventy five thousand dollars perceives garden. I've never heard

1069
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: that in my life.

1070
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 2: I've never heard that.

1071
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: I'm not saying guys who are short don't get shit right,

1072
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: especially in school. We all get shipped for something though. Brother,

1073
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: there's not a person I know people who are like

1074
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 1: professional models that have horrible insecurities about aspects of your body.

1075
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: You would never guess because some dude made fun of

1076
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: that part of their body when they were like fifteen. Right,

1077
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: that's just life, that's just being a person. You just

1078
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: got to deal with it, man, Right, you don't have to.

1079
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, hope you hope you have some kind of support

1080
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,439
Speaker 2: system around the ability to sort of like take these

1081
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 2: things on without it turning into you know, this ship.

1082
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: That's why it's like the kind of sad part about

1083
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: all this shit too, is like you don't get there

1084
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 2: because you're just like a dude. Like it's it's multiple

1085
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: levels of failure. Then then you sort of add in

1086
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: this really fragile mind state.

1087
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably don't have a lot of like people

1088
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: that are just that you care about and there's nothing

1089
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: transactional about that relationship in your life who you know,

1090
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: maybe you could add because like that's part of how

1091
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: you get over insecurities, is like having people who care

1092
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: about you and you love that allow you to have

1093
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: a sense of that help you build up a sense

1094
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: of self worth, that let you realize how irrational the

1095
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: things you were obsessed with work exactly. That's like just

1096
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: part of becoming a person, you know, is getting that.

1097
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: And when people are denied that and the loneliness epidemic

1098
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: I think is a part of that, then they do

1099
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: shit like pay doctor Maboobi and seventy five thousand dollars

1100
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: to get their legs through it.

1101
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 4: Five.

1102
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 2: It's wild.

1103
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: That's a nice car. That's like a fully kitted out

1104
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: real land Rover from a nice year right, Like, yeah,

1105
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: it's like one of like in almost any car worth

1106
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: having you can get for seventy five grand.

1107
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 2: I feel like, but nowadays, like seventy five thousands, I

1108
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,439
Speaker 2: get like base model Silverado truck.

1109
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but that's not really worth having, No, I know,

1110
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying, like it's weird.

1111
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 2: How like seventy five thousand.

1112
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: Trailer dot com you can get a fucking left hand

1113
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: drive land Cruise and a jay engine from less than that. Yeah, right,

1114
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: that'll actually turn heads. Nobody's gonna look at another Silverado.

1115
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 1: Get you one of them Japanese fire trucks. People look

1116
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 1: at those.

1117
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's that? It's like, Oh, this it's actually uh

1118
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: it's a Honda Acte. Ever heard of it? No, it's

1119
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 2: a five speed four by four. Yeah.

1120
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: Anyway, you can get some of the cheaper unimogus for

1121
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 1: seventy five grand. Those are cool.

1122
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1123
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 1: So my favorite of these articles was an ABC News

1124
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: piece that interviewed a guy and introduced him as someone

1125
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: who quote, at first glance, says he could be mistaken

1126
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: for Dwayne the Rock Johnson. And I'm not I'm not

1127
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: gonna pull up this guy's picture. I'm not going to

1128
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 1: make fun of his looks. But he doesn't. What he

1129
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: means by this is that he's super jacked and he

1130
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 1: wears designer clothing. Now, I'm not going to put up

1131
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: a picture of the guy, because again, I don't want

1132
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 1: to edge on mocking someone's appearance. But I will laugh

1133
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: a little at his explanation for why he felt that

1134
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: his natural height five foot nine perfectly average.

1135
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 2: That is not a short man, that is a man

1136
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 2: of normal heights. Okay, right, this.

1137
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 1: Is why he felt his height was insufficient. Quote, I'm

1138
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:36,240
Speaker 1: not average. I don't like to be average. So yeah, man.

1139
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: Sorry, dude, Like, and I bet guess what, I don't

1140
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 2: even think your little femur extendo that you're about to

1141
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 2: throw on there it might do the I don't know

1142
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 2: if that's going to do the trick either.

1143
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: No, man, that's just going to make you a guy

1144
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 1: who's been seventy five grand to ruin his legs. Now

1145
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: you can't do squats anymore homemade, And.

1146
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 2: Then what do you do? Like and would a guy

1147
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 2: like that openly tell you know a woman, because again

1148
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 2: it's all about being.

1149
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: Like, this guy's got rid of matter, I guess. And

1150
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: there's like this thing in the article he's like, well,

1151
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: now I can have a kid now that I'm not

1152
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: like dealing with the shame of being five foot nine?

1153
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 2: How much how much.

1154
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 3: Does this bonzergery costs on a rege? Seventy five thousand, seventy.

1155
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: Five fucking thousand. Honestly, let's do it.

1156
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 3: Just like get there, be in lie on your dating profile,

1157
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:20,759
Speaker 3: add to and we.

1158
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 1: Know you know what, you know what, I'm not going

1159
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: to say, there's no women who would prefer to be

1160
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: with a guy who's three inches taller than a guy

1161
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: who has seventy five grand and a high heeled like

1162
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: mutual funder something. But I'm gonna guess the vast majority

1163
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 1: of men and women prefer the person with a degree

1164
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 1: of financial stability to the permanently ruin their legs.

1165
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 2: Right. They're like, hey, you can be with this guy

1166
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 2: who walks like Edgar from.

1167
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: Men in Black who's going to have murder arthritis by

1168
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 1: age forty four.

1169
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,240
Speaker 2: Or this guy who's five to eight and has seventy

1170
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 2: five thousand dollars in.

1171
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: The Some of this comes from the shit you get,

1172
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 1: like with the insults, where they're like, there are these

1173
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: locked in stone physical features. If you don't have the

1174
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: perfect version of all of them, you will never know love.

1175
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: And like again, maybe this is just me coming out

1176
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 1: of like non monogamy communities, but I know so many

1177
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: short guys who get laid to a degree that would

1178
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: make these people's fucking head oh yeah, right fry and

1179
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 1: like that it's because they know how to do shit

1180
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: like drive forklifts, and like they wound up doing like

1181
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: ex showing in a public situation that they had some

1182
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: sort of cool knowledge and that someone interested in them,

1183
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 1: which is the way most people get.

1184
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: Just walking around walking around with the air of self acceptance. Yes, yes,

1185
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 2: that's not even like you didn't have to demonstrate, like hey,

1186
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 2: I can parallel park a big rig like no, no,

1187
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 2: just if you walk in people notice someone is just

1188
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 2: that not on some.

1189
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: Like superficial, super fragile ego shit people. People are generally

1190
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: attracted to folks who go out, and this is men

1191
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 1: and women attracted to folks who like do cool things

1192
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,760
Speaker 1: in the world. And you can you have with seventy

1193
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: five grand you can pay for training to do any

1194
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 1: number of cool things that you don't currently know how

1195
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: to do.

1196
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 2: It's even cheaper to be able to laugh at yourself too. Yeah,

1197
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 2: that's another underrated quality that.

1198
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: People being this kind of guy who is like so

1199
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: angry at his being five foot nine that he destroys

1200
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 1: his physical health for life. Like yeah, anyway, So grifters

1201
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: like the Cartilage Company and doctor Maboubian are products of

1202
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: a society with a lot of access to easy money

1203
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: and deep, widespread and security on behalf of the people

1204
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: with the most of it. When the Great Depression hit,

1205
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: a lot of these vanity products and magazine shilling them

1206
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: collapsed because no one had the money to pay for

1207
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: this kind of bullshit. Widespread unemployment also had a negative

1208
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 1: impact on the self and image of many men. And

1209
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 1: this was like a period where you actually saw this

1210
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: kind of crisis and masculinity spread away from the kind

1211
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: of moneyed educated class to like working classmen, right, And

1212
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 1: for a reason that is much more sympathetic, you know,

1213
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: than a guy feeling like he's not tall enough. It's because, like,

1214
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 1: suddenly I can't support my family, right, And the only

1215
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: thing that's ever given me a sense of worth in

1216
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: the society is that I can support my family, right,

1217
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 1: and that I have a lot of sims for right,

1218
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: like that you're not a that's not evidence of like

1219
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,479
Speaker 1: a personal weakness, that's the society itself being sick.

1220
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 3: You know.

1221
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: There's documentation of this. Sociologist Mira Komarovsky interviewed families of

1222
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: fifty nine unemployed men from the winter of nineteen thirty

1223
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: five to thirty six, and she described that men who

1224
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: had lost their role as provider and their self confidence

1225
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: with it tended to isolate themselves. They pulled out of

1226
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: men's lodges in unions and stopped socializing even with family.

1227
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: Sexual activity also plummeted although this may have just been

1228
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: a way of saving money because condoms weren't really that

1229
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 1: much of a thing, you know.

1230
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 2: At the time. Ooh rich, yeah, god, yeah.

1231
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can afford to have sex and not make

1232
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: more kids that you can't pay for.

1233
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1234
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 1: Now, what I found really interesting about this this study

1235
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: is something that with Kowski summarizes here, men out of

1236
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: work were underemployed had additional time on their hands. A

1237
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: wide selection of inexpensive home leisure activities, from playing solitariy

1238
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: to assembling jigsaw puzzles to building model kits became quite popular.

1239
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: Considering the meaning of hobby consumption, young and young observed

1240
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: their most important contribution during the depression years was a

1241
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: capacity to impart a sense of self worth to the hobbyist.

1242
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: Jobs might be scarce, but working hard at a hobby

1243
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: fulfilled the need for self esteem. That's what a person

1244
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:17,560
Speaker 1: that what a person was doing had value, and that

1245
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: the hobby itself took attention away from the economic difficulties

1246
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: of the day. I kind of I find this interesting

1247
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: because it's like, this seems to be sort of hinting

1248
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: at the role that gaming, which is today the most

1249
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: popular hobby for young men in our culture was going

1250
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: to play in radicalization, right, because when you lose, when

1251
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: you feel like you don't have you can't do any

1252
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: of the things that make you amend. You're not making

1253
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: enough money to take care of anyone. In a lot

1254
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: of cases, you don't have a family to take care of.

1255
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: You.

1256
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: Saw back in the Great Depression, a lot of the

1257
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: men experiencing this turn towards like hobbies and games. And

1258
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: I don't think that's unrelated to what's happening now to

1259
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: shit like Gameragate, right, I think there is a line there, right.

1260
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, if you aren't able to demonstrate some

1261
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 2: ability of being potent and with whatever financial options you

1262
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: are you have, then yeah, fuck it, dude, Like I'm

1263
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 2: going to prestige a bunch of characters and call of duty,

1264
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: or I'll build a ship in a bottle.

1265
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: It's this also the sense of like, you know, these

1266
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: guys in the Depression had had the again, their whole world,

1267
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: their job cut out from under them, and a lot

1268
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: of young men in our society their good jobs just

1269
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,960
Speaker 1: haven't ever existed, right, There's never been the hope of

1270
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: being able to like get a house for yourself, of

1271
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 1: being able to like raise kids. That's just not a

1272
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: practical thing. And then you pair that with a lot

1273
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: of the isolation you know that the Internet image has

1274
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: brought on upon young men. And yeah, I'm not surprised.

1275
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised that the first big explosion of like

1276
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: organized angry young men as a political force in our

1277
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: culture came out of gaming right. It's not weird.

1278
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, not at all.

1279
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 1: No, And Steve Bannon was one of the first guys

1280
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 1: to realize that this was on the offing. In twenty fifteen,

1281
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: in the immediate wake of gamer Gate, he saw the

1282
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: angry young men who'd been so easy to rile up, harass,

1283
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: and threaten young female developers as a ready base of

1284
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: support for Trump's nascent campaign. He bankrolled and supported the

1285
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: career of early influencers like Milo Eanopolis, who had gotten

1286
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: their start making mediat a service the community of enraged

1287
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: video game nerds Gamergate had started to organize. Now Eanopolis

1288
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,560
Speaker 1: is still unfortunately kind of with us. He pivoted successfully

1289
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: to the alt right, which as a cultural product, was

1290
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: a direct descendant and refinement of the basic elements present

1291
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: in Gamergate. This cultural product was wildly successful at thrusting

1292
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 1: a lot of these tactics for manipulating mass media and

1293
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: harassing opponents into silence into mainstream Republican politics. And that's

1294
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: a dark thing on its own. But there was a

1295
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 1: darker side to Gamergate because the communities the alt right

1296
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: came out of had only been momentarily useful to guys

1297
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 1: like Bannon. He wanted power, and Milo and other influencers

1298
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 1: who kind of came up as a result of his money,

1299
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: wanted an audience of people who weren't just freaks mailing

1300
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: dead animals to girls they hated. They left those guys

1301
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: behind as they started courting senators and governors, but the

1302
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: fever swamps remained, and the people inside them did not

1303
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: handle abandonment and the passing of their cultural moment well. Now,

1304
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 1: one of the websites that came out of Gamergate was

1305
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: eight chan. Right, Gamergate really gets kind of started being

1306
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: organized in four chan. Four Chan eventually kicks these guys

1307
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 1: off for all of the harassment and law breaking, and

1308
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: so eight chan gets created in like twenty fourteen as

1309
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: a place for these people as refugees to go, and

1310
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 1: eight chan very quickly becomes a place dedicated to harassment right,

1311
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: particularly to harassment of women, and one of the board's

1312
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 1: poll gets more extreme than that. It becomes just a

1313
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: straight up place for Nazis to organize on the internet.

1314
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 1: And I was the journalist following this, right, I was

1315
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: the guy who was really reporting on a lot of

1316
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: this stuff before most other people got around to it.

1317
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: So I watched from twenty fourteen or so to twenty

1318
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: nineteen as these people went from like guys who were

1319
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: really angry about women in their online spaces and games,

1320
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: to guys who were talking about wanting to mass murder migrants,

1321
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: you know, who are like non white and creating genocide,

1322
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:09,320
Speaker 1: right or doing a white genocide by moving to other countries.

1323
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: This kind of culminated, I'm sure a lot of people

1324
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 1: are aware in the christ Church mass shootings and several

1325
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: mass shootings that followed in twenty nineteen in Pawe and

1326
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: Alpaso in the United States. The Buffalo shooting was related

1327
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: to all of this, you know. There have been a

1328
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 1: couple others, one in Norway that got stopped. And when

1329
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 1: I was writing about this at the time, I used

1330
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: a term called the gamification of terror to describe the

1331
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: process by which young men socialized largely online in games,

1332
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 1: used things like Twitch in first person cameras to stream

1333
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 1: their massacres.

1334
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 3: Right.

1335
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: It was taking now all of these elements that had

1336
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: been present in the gaming that had kind of brought

1337
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: them together and putting it into these real world massacres,

1338
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: right because it made them in part, it made them

1339
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 1: more familiar. It made it feel like something that was

1340
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: more a natural outgrowth of what they were already doing,

1341
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: and it was just something they understood. It was the

1342
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: way that they communicated, and it, you know, all of

1343
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 1: this was very surprising to people at the time, the

1344
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: idea that like someone would stream in first person video

1345
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: of them shooting women and children in a mosque. But

1346
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 1: if you followed these people, it really wasn't strange at all.

1347
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:15,960
Speaker 1: You know, it was the only way things were ever

1348
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 1: going to go. And that's kind of what's scariest to

1349
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 1: me about it, is like there's a lot more that's

1350
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 1: like that of like, well, we can all tell anyone

1351
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: who's following knows where this shit's going next, right, and

1352
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 1: there's just nothing to do. It feels like, but like

1353
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:34,120
Speaker 1: watch the ship's head towards the rocks anyway, Miles, that's

1354
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 1: the episode that's part one.

1355
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 2: How are you doing U as usual? When we end

1356
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 2: part one of a two part I feel optimistic. I

1357
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 2: think we're going to turn around. In part two, all

1358
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 2: the guys therapy and maybe and.

1359
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: All the girls get to be not near any of

1360
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: those guys.

1361
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe in part two Robert will pronounce the

1362
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 3: guy's name Milo. We don't know.

1363
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Fuck that guy, Yeah, fuck that guy.

1364
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I don't care. Doesn't matter, It doesn't matter.

1365
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 1: I almost talked about Davis Areni today, but I decided

1366
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: not to. Maybe next time, friends, Maybe next time.

1367
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 3: How's you have anything you want to plug?

1368
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 1: Uh?

1369
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 2: Check me out every day just lamenting about uh not lament.

1370
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 2: That's celebrating are the downfall of our society. And also

1371
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 2: funny stuff too on the daily Zeitgeist, which is fun

1372
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 2: with Jack O'Brien. Check that out.

1373
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, hell yeah, Well, anyway, we're done, go to help.

1374
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1375
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:41,439
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1376
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:45,479
Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1377
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1378
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 3: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1379
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 3: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1380
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 3: At Behind the Bastards