WEBVTT - Judging Sam: The Case Against SBF 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:18.516 --> 0:00:21.476 Hey there, it's Michael Lewis. Before we get to this episode, 0:00:21.596 --> 0:00:23.116 I want to let you know that you can listen 0:00:23.116 --> 0:00:26.316 to each episode of Judging Sam The Trial of Sam 0:00:26.356 --> 0:00:30.516 Bankman Freed ad free by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber, 0:00:30.996 --> 0:00:34.076 and with your subscription you'll also get exclusive access to 0:00:34.116 --> 0:00:38.676 ad free and early bingeable podcasts like Paul McCartney's new podcast, 0:00:38.836 --> 0:00:43.636 McCartney A Life and Lyrics, Malcolm Gladwell's revisionist history, The 0:00:43.676 --> 0:00:47.516 Happiness Lab from Doctor Lorie Santos, and tons of other 0:00:47.596 --> 0:00:51.116 top shows from Pushkin. Sign up an Apple Podcasts or 0:00:51.116 --> 0:00:56.636 at Pushkin, dot fm, Slash Plus. Welcome to Judging Sam, 0:00:56.836 --> 0:01:01.836 The Trial of Sam Bankman Freed. I'm Michael Lewis. Sam 0:01:01.916 --> 0:01:04.996 is the founder of a cryptocurrency exchange called ftx that 0:01:05.036 --> 0:01:08.316 at one point was worth forty billion dollars. Some thought 0:01:08.316 --> 0:01:11.836 that he'd bring cryptocurrency into the mainstream. Others thought that 0:01:11.876 --> 0:01:15.116 he might save the world with his philanthropy. But instead 0:01:15.116 --> 0:01:18.116 his fortune is gone and he's been charged with financial 0:01:18.156 --> 0:01:20.076 crimes that could put him in prison for the rest 0:01:20.076 --> 0:01:22.556 of his life. I spent a year and a half 0:01:22.596 --> 0:01:25.076 reporting on Sam. I was there for the good days, 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:28.156 which were astronomically good, and I was there for the 0:01:28.196 --> 0:01:33.036 catastrophic collapse. While Sam was under house arrest, I visited 0:01:33.076 --> 0:01:35.476 him often, and I wrote a book about it all. 0:01:35.596 --> 0:01:38.756 It's called Going Infinite, The Rise and Fall of a 0:01:38.796 --> 0:01:41.636 New Tycoon. You can hear more about the book in 0:01:41.676 --> 0:01:45.076 Sam's Backstory in our last episode. But now we're picking 0:01:45.156 --> 0:01:47.236 up where the book left off and following the trial 0:01:47.276 --> 0:01:50.756 that will decide Sam's fate. I won't be able to 0:01:50.756 --> 0:01:53.996 go every day, but producer and reporter Lydia Jane cottwill 0:01:54.516 --> 0:01:56.756 and she and I will be talking regularly about the 0:01:56.796 --> 0:01:59.516 twists and turns of the proceedings and will bring you 0:01:59.556 --> 0:02:04.236 more like interviews with experts, eyewitnesses, and sources I've developed 0:02:04.276 --> 0:02:08.516 throughout my time reporting on Sam. In this episode, lydia 0:02:08.556 --> 0:02:11.596 Jene has questions for me and Rebecca Mermelstein, a defense 0:02:11.636 --> 0:02:15.676 attorney at the law firm Omelvini and Myers. We'll talk 0:02:15.716 --> 0:02:18.356 about what we can expect to happen today, which is 0:02:18.396 --> 0:02:22.196 the first day of Sam's trial. So, Lydia Jean, what's 0:02:22.236 --> 0:02:22.916 on your mind? 0:02:23.836 --> 0:02:27.676 Thanks Michael, and welcome Rebecca. We're recruiting this on September 0:02:27.716 --> 0:02:30.396 twenty six. But it's exciting to think that when this 0:02:30.476 --> 0:02:33.836 episode comes out, Sam's trial will be underway. As I'm 0:02:33.836 --> 0:02:35.716 getting ready to report on it. I have a few 0:02:35.796 --> 0:02:38.756 questions for both of you. Michael, I'm going to start 0:02:38.756 --> 0:02:42.556 with you. So, I was wondering if maybe we could 0:02:42.556 --> 0:02:45.996 go back to the beginning of this chapter of Sam's life. 0:02:46.556 --> 0:02:49.516 Where were you when you heard that Sam Makmin Freed 0:02:49.596 --> 0:02:50.316 had been indicted? 0:02:51.596 --> 0:02:53.756 God, you know, it's funny. I don't remember where I 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:57.836 was then because the trouble had been brewing for so 0:02:58.036 --> 0:03:01.676 long before then. I spread God, I might have been 0:03:01.676 --> 0:03:04.196 in the Bahamas. I was back and forth for this period, 0:03:04.236 --> 0:03:09.916 from the point that FTX collapsed in November of last 0:03:09.996 --> 0:03:14.836 year to the point when he's extradited in end of December. 0:03:15.556 --> 0:03:17.796 I was in Bahamas at least half the time. 0:03:18.116 --> 0:03:19.916 Yeah, And what were you thinking when all of this 0:03:20.076 --> 0:03:23.316 was beginning? How did you process it at the time. 0:03:23.476 --> 0:03:26.516 And unravel so quickly? It went from being a company 0:03:26.556 --> 0:03:29.876 that venture capitalists were valuing at forty billion dollars to 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:32.636 a company that was bankrupt in like three days. And 0:03:33.356 --> 0:03:36.716 when that happened, I had a couple of thoughts at once. 0:03:36.796 --> 0:03:39.396 Some of them. Several of these thoughts I had were ignoble. 0:03:39.556 --> 0:03:42.116 The ignoble thought was I wasn't quite sure how I 0:03:42.156 --> 0:03:43.436 was going to write this book, And now I know 0:03:43.476 --> 0:03:45.036 how I'm going to write this book, and the story 0:03:45.116 --> 0:03:47.156 is unbelievable, and I can't believe I'm sitting in the 0:03:47.196 --> 0:03:49.716 middle of it and getting to watch it. The immediate 0:03:49.756 --> 0:03:53.196 thought was the incredulity at the panic in the air 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:56.956 that there were hundreds of employees of FTX in the 0:03:56.956 --> 0:04:01.076 Bahamas who just ran for the airport, and it was 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:05.996 this wonderful quiet where it was just me and Sam, 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:09.436 and Sam's parents and Sam's therapists and one or two 0:04:09.556 --> 0:04:14.076 brave souls from FTX who hadn't fled. I also thought 0:04:14.756 --> 0:04:17.996 how curious it was the speed with which it went 0:04:18.036 --> 0:04:24.956 from this pretty widely admired and reputable operation to being 0:04:25.036 --> 0:04:28.516 viewed as this vast criminal enterprise without there being a 0:04:28.556 --> 0:04:31.956 whole lot of new data except for the fact the 0:04:31.996 --> 0:04:34.116 money was in the wrong place. The money wasn't there. 0:04:34.276 --> 0:04:36.996 There was supposed to be fifteen billion dollars inside of FTX. 0:04:37.036 --> 0:04:39.276 That and a lot of that was not inside of FTX. 0:04:39.316 --> 0:04:41.676 It was clearly inside of Sam's hedge foot, but before 0:04:42.036 --> 0:04:45.356 the most important executives in the place could explain what 0:04:45.476 --> 0:04:47.676 had happened or had any idea what had happened, everybody 0:04:47.756 --> 0:04:50.236 changed their mind all at once, So there was it 0:04:50.276 --> 0:04:52.756 was It's just like how fast it went from one 0:04:52.876 --> 0:04:54.316 judgment to another judgment. 0:04:54.996 --> 0:04:58.116 Was there a part of you that was like maybe 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:01.036 this swall blow over or were you like this, there's 0:05:01.036 --> 0:05:03.316 a before and there's an after, and now this is 0:05:03.396 --> 0:05:05.276 an after. Thanks will never be the same? 0:05:07.036 --> 0:05:11.316 That's a good question. No, I thought things would never 0:05:11.356 --> 0:05:13.996 be the same. Sam thought for the first five or 0:05:13.996 --> 0:05:16.916 six weeks that he was going to revive the exchange 0:05:16.956 --> 0:05:20.476 with the help of some aging crypto people and that 0:05:21.076 --> 0:05:24.716 this was all resolvable. I couldn't really see that path, 0:05:25.516 --> 0:05:29.036 and that the things run on trust and it went 0:05:29.076 --> 0:05:32.516 from being very trusted, like nothing in crypto is that trusted. 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:36.756 But as things going, Crypto maybe the most trusted. I mean, 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:40.956 it's brand was trust to being completely not trusted, and 0:05:41.116 --> 0:05:43.396 once that happens, it's very hard to kind of get 0:05:43.436 --> 0:05:45.316 it back. So I didn't think. I didn't think he 0:05:45.356 --> 0:05:47.116 was coming back. It was interesting to watch him flop 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:49.196 around trying to figure out how to get it back. 0:05:50.876 --> 0:05:53.196 The other thing I remember, and Rebecca could speak to this. 0:05:53.956 --> 0:05:55.996 The lawyers came in and out. His lawyers came in 0:05:56.116 --> 0:05:58.276 a couple of times, and I remember talking to them 0:05:58.556 --> 0:06:03.276 early December, mid December, how long it would take before 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:07.356 the United States government actually felt it had its case 0:06:07.756 --> 0:06:09.996 and it was strong enough that they wanted the Bahamas 0:06:10.036 --> 0:06:13.476 to extradite him and then bring him to the States. 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:16.356 And I remember the lawyers thinking they had many months 0:06:16.676 --> 0:06:18.476 like that. They didn't think this was going to happen 0:06:18.556 --> 0:06:20.636 that fast because it's too complicated and everybody needed to 0:06:20.716 --> 0:06:24.036 understand what happened first, and that was it. So that 0:06:24.156 --> 0:06:27.236 was a shock to everyone, even the pros, like how 0:06:27.356 --> 0:06:30.116 fast they got him out of there and how fast 0:06:30.116 --> 0:06:30.916 they got him here. 0:06:32.236 --> 0:06:36.076 Rebecca, could you maybe just summarize what exactly Sam has 0:06:36.076 --> 0:06:36.756 been charged with? 0:06:37.356 --> 0:06:42.276 Sure, I think they largely fall into really three related issues. 0:06:42.676 --> 0:06:46.116 The first is there's an allegation that he defrauded the 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:49.956 investors in FTX basically by lying, right, And that's going 0:06:49.996 --> 0:06:52.036 to be a theme here again and again and again 0:06:52.196 --> 0:06:56.196 about misrepresentation. So there's some charges that relate to lies 0:06:56.316 --> 0:07:01.436 and defrauding of investors in FTX, there are alleged lies 0:07:01.476 --> 0:07:04.756 to lender. So there's were loans that had been made 0:07:04.796 --> 0:07:07.196 to his entities, and there's allegations that he lied to 0:07:07.236 --> 0:07:10.396 those lenders both to get money from them and then 0:07:10.436 --> 0:07:12.476 to keep money from them to keep them from taking 0:07:12.516 --> 0:07:16.356 their money back. And then of course lies to FTX customers, 0:07:16.396 --> 0:07:20.396 to people who were sending a currency right dollars yen 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:24.876 lira two accounts that were purportedly held at FTX, it 0:07:24.876 --> 0:07:27.116 turns out they were largely held at Alameda, it's part 0:07:27.116 --> 0:07:29.836 of the problem. And then stealing that money from his 0:07:29.876 --> 0:07:33.236 customers without their knowledge. So that's the big framework. I 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:35.956 think those are the three areas you're going to hear 0:07:36.076 --> 0:07:39.116 the most about at the trial. That breaks down into 0:07:39.196 --> 0:07:42.356 seven different charges in this case. Often you're going to 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:45.436 see a what we call a substantive offense that he 0:07:45.476 --> 0:07:47.956 did a certain crime, he committed a certain crime, and 0:07:47.996 --> 0:07:51.076 also a conspiracy, which is a companion to it. Right, 0:07:51.076 --> 0:07:53.556 it's a separate crime to agree to commit the crime 0:07:53.596 --> 0:07:55.036 with other people, and so you're going to see those 0:07:55.036 --> 0:07:57.276 go together a lot. So you have a wire fraud 0:07:57.476 --> 0:08:00.556 on the FTX customers and a conspiracy to do that 0:08:00.636 --> 0:08:04.676 same thing. You have a wire fraud on Alameda's lenders, 0:08:04.916 --> 0:08:07.716 you have a conspiracy to do that same thing, and 0:08:07.756 --> 0:08:11.556 then you have conspiracy to commit securities fraud in relation 0:08:11.836 --> 0:08:17.116 to FTX investors, a conspiracy to commit commodities fraud on 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:21.596 FTX customers, and finally money laundering, which basically is an 0:08:21.596 --> 0:08:24.316 allegation that he was hiding the money he was stealing. 0:08:24.716 --> 0:08:28.316 It's interesting to me if a lay person reads the charges, 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:33.796 there's no they can't visualize the crime. I think of 0:08:33.836 --> 0:08:36.116 the problem is like all one big problem. The money 0:08:36.156 --> 0:08:38.956 was in the wrong place, and that's pretty simple, like 0:08:39.036 --> 0:08:41.556 money that should have been in cold storage and FTX 0:08:41.636 --> 0:08:44.676 was in hot little hands of alimeter research. And then 0:08:44.676 --> 0:08:47.516 it gets framed with all these complicated words and in 0:08:47.876 --> 0:08:50.556 kind of abstract terms like why are fraud? How does 0:08:50.596 --> 0:08:52.916 that even come about as an idea that we're going 0:08:52.996 --> 0:08:56.116 to charge him not with the money being in the 0:08:56.156 --> 0:09:00.556 wrong place, but in him sending electronic messages that hide 0:09:00.556 --> 0:09:02.516 the fact that the money is in the wrong place. 0:09:03.116 --> 0:09:05.076 Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's really a 0:09:05.156 --> 0:09:08.996 quirk of the federal system, which is to say, some 0:09:09.236 --> 0:09:12.836 thing happens, everyone has the feeling it's a crime. You 0:09:12.916 --> 0:09:14.756 have to match it to a statute. There has to 0:09:14.836 --> 0:09:18.116 be something that makes it a crime. But the reason 0:09:18.276 --> 0:09:23.116 wire fraud is a federal crime is because after you 0:09:23.156 --> 0:09:26.596 have to have the misleading statement and the effort to defraud, 0:09:26.636 --> 0:09:30.156 you have to have an interstate or international wire, and 0:09:30.196 --> 0:09:33.316 that gives the federal government the power to regulate it, 0:09:33.356 --> 0:09:36.076 and it gives federal prosecutors the power to prosecute it. 0:09:36.276 --> 0:09:37.756 So it's a little bit of a funny quirk. 0:09:39.396 --> 0:09:41.956 If Sam is found guilty on all seven counts that 0:09:42.036 --> 0:09:44.716 he's been charged with, how long could he go to prison? For? 0:09:45.516 --> 0:09:47.716 The maximum as a matter of law is a little 0:09:47.716 --> 0:09:49.596 over one hundred years. Is that likely? 0:09:49.636 --> 0:09:49.836 Though? 0:09:49.876 --> 0:09:51.796 Would you serve them consecutively? 0:09:51.996 --> 0:09:54.676 It's a great question, so you can structure a sentence 0:09:54.876 --> 0:09:57.756 a lot of different ways. Will he actually get one 0:09:57.796 --> 0:10:00.396 hundred and ten years in prison? It would be a 0:10:00.556 --> 0:10:03.916 very extraordinary sentence for a white collar defendant, even a 0:10:03.956 --> 0:10:08.356 white collar defendant at this scale. I think it's unlikely. 0:10:08.436 --> 0:10:10.756 The statute'd say this is the most amount of time 0:10:10.876 --> 0:10:13.236 a judge could give him in jail, But the sentence 0:10:13.236 --> 0:10:17.676 and guidelines are a very complicated algorithm that gives judges 0:10:17.876 --> 0:10:21.436 a recommended range for someone, and in a fraud case, 0:10:21.556 --> 0:10:25.636 the overwhelming the most important factor is the loss amount 0:10:25.716 --> 0:10:28.316 in the case, and this one's obviously off the charts. Yeah, 0:10:28.316 --> 0:10:30.436 and so his guidelines range here, I haven't looked at it, 0:10:30.476 --> 0:10:33.116 but I'm almost certain will be life in prison, which 0:10:33.196 --> 0:10:35.836 is not very useful as a recommendation to a judge. 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:37.796 So I would say, he's looking at a lot of time, 0:10:37.916 --> 0:10:40.476 but you shouldn't use the statutory maximum sentence as a 0:10:40.516 --> 0:10:41.876 presumption about what he's looking at. 0:10:42.316 --> 0:10:46.236 Sam's now in jail at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, 0:10:46.676 --> 0:10:49.236 and his lawyers have been saying that the fact that 0:10:49.316 --> 0:10:51.956 he's held there has been making it hard for them 0:10:51.996 --> 0:10:54.556 to work with him. You've had clients at the Metropolitan 0:10:54.596 --> 0:10:55.316 Detention Center? 0:10:55.396 --> 0:10:56.356 Is that right I have? 0:10:56.756 --> 0:10:59.236 Can you describe what it's been like to work with them? 0:10:59.716 --> 0:11:03.476 There's no question it's extraordinarily harder to help someone prepare 0:11:03.516 --> 0:11:06.356 for trial or even for any part of their case 0:11:06.516 --> 0:11:08.876 when they're in prison. For any number of reasons. Prisoner's 0:11:08.916 --> 0:11:12.436 by and large can't make phone calls. They do have 0:11:12.476 --> 0:11:15.916 some access to phone time. Those phone calls are recorded. 0:11:16.196 --> 0:11:19.916 In every instance, there is inmate email. Again, the government 0:11:19.996 --> 0:11:22.836 has access to that they are almost certainly reading Sam 0:11:22.876 --> 0:11:25.356 Bankman's freed'ze emails, and you don't want to risk that 0:11:25.396 --> 0:11:27.076 they're going to look at something you're saying to your client. 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:29.956 So if you think about what that means about visiting 0:11:29.996 --> 0:11:32.196 your client, that means every time you want to see 0:11:32.196 --> 0:11:34.596 your client, you have to go out to Brooklyn, MDC 0:11:34.756 --> 0:11:36.916 is kind of a little bit in the middle of nowhere, 0:11:36.956 --> 0:11:39.276 relatively speaking. It's not an easy place to get to. 0:11:39.796 --> 0:11:41.956 You have to go through prison security, You have to 0:11:41.996 --> 0:11:43.876 lock your possessions in a locker, you have to go 0:11:43.956 --> 0:11:46.636 through a metal detector. That are very strict rules about 0:11:46.676 --> 0:11:49.396 what colors you can wear. You can't wear colors that 0:11:49.436 --> 0:11:52.836 are the colors of inmate uniform, so no khaki, no orange. 0:11:53.476 --> 0:11:55.956 And then there's a lot of waiting. There's a lot 0:11:55.956 --> 0:11:58.636 of bureaucracy, and you are really at the mercy of 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:01.436 a bop prison guard who's not all that interested in 0:12:01.516 --> 0:12:03.636 being helpful, and so you wait, You wait to be 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:05.316 let into the visiting room, You wait for them to 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:08.356 bring your client down. Twice a day inmates are counted. 0:12:08.436 --> 0:12:10.956 That is, the whole prison shuts down so that every 0:12:10.956 --> 0:12:13.916 single person can be counted and nobody can leave or 0:12:14.036 --> 0:12:16.436 enter at that time. Sometimes it takes an hour, so 0:12:16.476 --> 0:12:18.716 you could get stuck. You're done but you can't leave, 0:12:19.076 --> 0:12:20.676 or the other way you could be waiting to get in. 0:12:20.916 --> 0:12:25.356 So everything is very, very very slow and without seeming 0:12:25.436 --> 0:12:27.596 rhyme or reason. There's often just a shut down and 0:12:27.636 --> 0:12:29.476 you get there and you can't go in, so it's 0:12:29.516 --> 0:12:31.636 extremely frustrating, as you might imagine. 0:12:31.916 --> 0:12:35.156 Yeah, I actually tried to visit the MDC yesterday a 0:12:35.236 --> 0:12:38.116 half an hour uber and they were doing prisoner account 0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:40.556 and I wasn't allowed in and they made me stand 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:43.236 in this basically bus stop area where I couldn't see 0:12:43.276 --> 0:12:46.316 anything that was happening at all, and I gave up 0:12:46.396 --> 0:12:46.956 and went so. 0:12:47.276 --> 0:12:48.956 Did you actually knock on the door and say can 0:12:48.996 --> 0:12:49.476 I come in? 0:12:50.036 --> 0:12:52.636 I stood in front of the door, and then a 0:12:52.636 --> 0:12:54.036 guard came up to me and asked me what I 0:12:54.076 --> 0:12:55.876 was doing, and I said I was a journalist, and 0:12:55.916 --> 0:12:57.756 he said, you can't come in. 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:00.956 You had no one to see though, you're no purpose. 0:13:00.596 --> 0:13:02.116 There, I know, I just wanted to see how far 0:13:02.156 --> 0:13:02.596 I lead got. 0:13:04.716 --> 0:13:06.836 You're the only one in America trying to get into jail. 0:13:07.556 --> 0:13:09.836 Yeah, I did not make a very I made it 0:13:09.916 --> 0:13:11.996 right to the front steps. 0:13:13.196 --> 0:13:24.276 We'll be right back. Welcome back to judging Sam the 0:13:24.356 --> 0:13:25.836 trial of Sam Bankman. 0:13:25.596 --> 0:13:27.036 Freed, Rebecca. 0:13:27.076 --> 0:13:28.876 I was wondering if you could give us a preview 0:13:28.876 --> 0:13:30.796 of what we should expect to happen on the first day. 0:13:31.436 --> 0:13:34.156 Sure. So the first day I expect will largely consist 0:13:34.276 --> 0:13:37.836 of jury selection, which is to say that people will 0:13:37.836 --> 0:13:41.556 be brought in in a veneer thirty forty fifty people 0:13:41.556 --> 0:13:44.716 at a time typically, and these are people who live 0:13:44.916 --> 0:13:47.356 in the New York City area. So it's going to 0:13:47.396 --> 0:13:51.676 include Manhattan, the Bronx, Westchester, and a few of the 0:13:51.716 --> 0:13:55.316 southernmost counties of the Southern District of New York. And 0:13:55.356 --> 0:13:57.236 they're going to have received a summons in the mail 0:13:57.276 --> 0:13:59.196 that tells them to come in. They won't know that 0:13:59.196 --> 0:14:02.276 they're coming in for any particular case. And actually there'll 0:14:02.276 --> 0:14:04.316 be hundreds of people sitting in a main room called 0:14:04.396 --> 0:14:06.996 up one of the you know, in groups to whatever 0:14:07.036 --> 0:14:08.956 courtroom needs to pick a jury that day. It may 0:14:09.036 --> 0:14:12.676 not only be Sam bankman Fried next week. And then 0:14:12.836 --> 0:14:16.436 the judge will ask a series of questions, some of 0:14:16.436 --> 0:14:19.276 which are virtually standard for every single criminal trial, and 0:14:19.396 --> 0:14:21.516 other of which the parties have asked the judge to 0:14:21.516 --> 0:14:24.396 ask and he's agreed that are specific to this trial. 0:14:25.036 --> 0:14:27.956 To try to ascertain a few things, is this a 0:14:27.996 --> 0:14:30.716 person who can sit at this trial or any trial? 0:14:30.796 --> 0:14:33.636 For example, if you don't speak English fluently, then you 0:14:33.676 --> 0:14:36.716 can't be a jur right, if you have a medical 0:14:36.716 --> 0:14:38.476 condition that means you can't sit for a long period 0:14:38.476 --> 0:14:40.076 of time in a chair, you can't be a jur 0:14:40.396 --> 0:14:42.116 Do you have a small child at home and you're 0:14:42.156 --> 0:14:44.636 not able to stay until five o'clock because you have 0:14:44.676 --> 0:14:45.956 to do school pickups. So you're going to get a 0:14:45.996 --> 0:14:47.996 lot of people who just say I can't be here 0:14:47.996 --> 0:14:50.556 for logistical reasons, some of them really can't, and some 0:14:50.596 --> 0:14:51.876 of them just don't want to be on a jury. 0:14:52.396 --> 0:14:54.556 And then you're going to get people who have strong 0:14:54.596 --> 0:14:57.716 opinions about facts that are related to this case that 0:14:57.756 --> 0:14:59.796 they are going to say or the parties are going 0:14:59.836 --> 0:15:03.316 to determine make them unable to be an impartial juror 0:15:03.356 --> 0:15:06.156 if you lost money in the FTX bankruptcy, you probably 0:15:06.196 --> 0:15:08.596 can't be a juror on this case. If you are 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:11.596 be friends with Chris Everdale, who's one of Sam Bankman's 0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:14.276 Freed's lawyers, then you probably can't be on this jury, 0:15:14.316 --> 0:15:16.396 and so you'll have a long process of trying to 0:15:16.436 --> 0:15:20.236 weed through people who can really be impartial and sit 0:15:20.316 --> 0:15:23.036 in a fair way and listen to the facts and 0:15:23.116 --> 0:15:25.516 learn them for the first time and not be affected 0:15:25.556 --> 0:15:28.436 by what they may have heard other places and decide. 0:15:28.836 --> 0:15:31.596 And I could be wrong. Judge Caaplin's a very efficient judge, 0:15:31.636 --> 0:15:33.916 but that is very likely to take the whole first day, 0:15:33.956 --> 0:15:35.996 and that will be all that happens. And it's a 0:15:35.996 --> 0:15:37.556 little interesting for a few minutes, and then it gets 0:15:37.556 --> 0:15:38.316 a little repetitive. 0:15:38.676 --> 0:15:41.716 Is it possible it goes on for a much longer time? 0:15:41.956 --> 0:15:42.236 Can it? 0:15:42.276 --> 0:15:42.436 Case? 0:15:42.556 --> 0:15:46.676 Certainly could. I would say it's not unusual for it 0:15:46.676 --> 0:15:49.676 to spill into a second day. It would be pretty 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:53.596 unusual for it to spill into a third, but it could. 0:15:54.076 --> 0:15:57.436 You mentioned that Judge Coplin is pretty efficient. So yeah, 0:15:57.436 --> 0:15:59.556 the judge in this case, his name is Lewis Caplan 0:15:59.836 --> 0:16:02.516 And Rebecca, you're a former prosecutor in the Southern District 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:04.556 of New York. That's the office that's bringing this case 0:16:04.556 --> 0:16:05.156 against Sam. 0:16:05.236 --> 0:16:05.676 That's right. 0:16:05.836 --> 0:16:07.356 What can you tell us about Judge Coplin? 0:16:07.596 --> 0:16:09.796 So I never tried a case in front of Judge Caplin, 0:16:09.876 --> 0:16:12.436 But I would say his reputation is as someone who 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:16.876 is very smart, very confident in his own decision making. 0:16:16.956 --> 0:16:21.156 He makes decisions quickly. Some judges have a reputation that 0:16:21.476 --> 0:16:24.356 whoever spoke last kind of convinces them. I don't think 0:16:24.396 --> 0:16:27.436 that's true with him, and I think on balance he's 0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:29.876 seen as someone who's a good judge for the government, 0:16:30.476 --> 0:16:34.036 both because I think he's friendly to the government's purpose, 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:36.676 which is not to say that he's not impartial, but 0:16:36.876 --> 0:16:40.116 he's not an aunt, doesn't have an anti prosecutor bent, 0:16:40.996 --> 0:16:43.076 and at the end of the day, I always felt 0:16:43.076 --> 0:16:44.876 as a prosecutor and now I still feel this way 0:16:44.876 --> 0:16:48.676 as defense lawyer, that judges who are rigorous about enforcing 0:16:48.716 --> 0:16:52.756 the rules of the court room, about enforcing limitations on 0:16:52.796 --> 0:16:55.796 what's admissible and the rules of evidence, are better for 0:16:55.836 --> 0:16:58.276 the government because the government is more likely to be 0:16:59.236 --> 0:17:01.756 playing by the book, and as defense lawyers, we often 0:17:01.796 --> 0:17:04.156 are trying to find a little more wiggle room, and 0:17:04.196 --> 0:17:06.036 so a judge who doesn't allow that is better for 0:17:06.076 --> 0:17:07.516 the government than for the defense. 0:17:07.996 --> 0:17:11.076 Right It's like the rule followers versus the rule breakers. 0:17:12.516 --> 0:17:13.796 I don't know that I like to think about myself 0:17:13.836 --> 0:17:15.556 now as a rule breaker, But it's a fair point 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:19.156 the rural skeptics, Yes, the rule skeptics. I think that's right. 0:17:19.476 --> 0:17:21.396 And of course, the other thing that's interesting about Judge 0:17:21.436 --> 0:17:24.156 Capelin here is that the defendant has really pissed him 0:17:24.156 --> 0:17:27.996 off by his pre trial antics, if you will. And 0:17:28.236 --> 0:17:30.036 I don't think that Judge Kaplin is going to let 0:17:30.036 --> 0:17:33.476 that affect the way he handles the trial itself. But 0:17:33.516 --> 0:17:35.836 I think it's a bad sign for sentencing ray. 0:17:35.876 --> 0:17:38.276 I was going to say, in a case like this, 0:17:38.476 --> 0:17:41.356 what difference does who the judge is make? Because at 0:17:41.356 --> 0:17:42.836 the end of the day, right, it's the jury that 0:17:42.876 --> 0:17:44.596 decides whether Sam is guilty or innocent. 0:17:44.756 --> 0:17:46.556 Oh, but I think the judge makes an enormous amount 0:17:46.556 --> 0:17:49.556 of difference in lots of ways. The first is that 0:17:49.956 --> 0:17:52.836 there are lots of evidentiary rulings that could go either 0:17:52.836 --> 0:17:56.156 way that reasonable minds can disagree, And trial judges have 0:17:56.196 --> 0:17:59.676 an enormous amount of discretion to control the flow of 0:17:59.716 --> 0:18:03.196 evidence in their courtroom. Some judges, even though they tell 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:05.876 a jury, you shouldn't read anything into my questions, you 0:18:05.916 --> 0:18:08.716 shouldn't read anything into how I rule on objections. I 0:18:08.756 --> 0:18:12.396 don't have an opinion. Juries love judges. They watch judges 0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:15.636 for signs and they interpret every single thing the judge 0:18:15.716 --> 0:18:18.676 is doing. So again really matters. And then judges have 0:18:18.756 --> 0:18:23.236 an enormous amount of discretion at sentencing. And so if 0:18:23.236 --> 0:18:25.596 you can they're actually our statistics published on this, you 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:28.476 can see some judges are really light sentencers, some are 0:18:28.476 --> 0:18:30.596 really harsh sentencers. Again, it really matters. 0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:33.996 Okay, another question for you, Rebecca. Let's move forward to 0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:37.036 opening statements. If you were to make a bingo card 0:18:37.596 --> 0:18:40.236 for what you would expect the prosecution and the defense 0:18:40.316 --> 0:18:42.916 to say in their opening statements, what would you put 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:45.356 on those cards. Let's start with the prosecution. 0:18:45.436 --> 0:18:48.556 Okay, that's a fun question. You'll see. I predict that 0:18:48.796 --> 0:18:51.796 the government's opening will have the same form it always does. 0:18:51.836 --> 0:18:54.716 It's going to have what's called a grab, a quick, pithy, 0:18:54.956 --> 0:18:57.836 kind of interesting way to grab the jury's attention, and 0:18:57.876 --> 0:19:00.036 then they'll kind of pause. They're going to explain what 0:19:00.276 --> 0:19:03.156 happened here. They're going to tell the story of the 0:19:03.156 --> 0:19:06.196 downfall of FTX, and then they'll talk about how they're 0:19:06.196 --> 0:19:08.356 going to prove that to the jury. Who's going to 0:19:08.436 --> 0:19:10.316 come talk to them what kind of documents they're going 0:19:10.396 --> 0:19:12.036 to say, So they're going to talk about lies. They're 0:19:12.036 --> 0:19:15.396 going to say, lie lie lie, lie to FDx investors, 0:19:15.796 --> 0:19:18.956 lied to customers, lied to lenders. I think there's a 0:19:18.996 --> 0:19:23.556 possibility that you'll hear some kind of victim vignettes, right, 0:19:23.636 --> 0:19:27.916 the little lady in Topeka who lost her life savings 0:19:27.996 --> 0:19:30.756 in the downfall, right, because it puts a human element 0:19:30.796 --> 0:19:33.316 on it. Otherwise it's a little abstract, and you want 0:19:33.316 --> 0:19:37.156 to really say, these are real people. This wasn't monopoly money. 0:19:37.196 --> 0:19:41.756 It mattered. So I expect you'll hear about victims. I 0:19:41.756 --> 0:19:46.316 think you'll hear the word victim. I wouldn't be surprised 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:49.356 if you surprised if you heard things like greed, right. 0:19:49.756 --> 0:19:53.596 And I guess that's not enough words for a BINGO card, 0:19:53.916 --> 0:19:57.076 but I think that's probably the top ones i'd pick. 0:19:57.236 --> 0:19:59.756 And if you're the defense, you're going to hear a 0:19:59.796 --> 0:20:03.076 lot about cooperators. I predict, as I think has been 0:20:03.316 --> 0:20:05.996 sort of widely published at this point, there are people 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:09.036