1 00:00:15,376 --> 00:00:15,816 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,956 --> 00:00:22,026 Speaker 2: Hey there, it's Michael Lewis here talking about my new book, Blockers. 3 00:00:22,906 --> 00:00:26,066 Speaker 2: Very briefly, it's about the collision between the Trump administration 4 00:00:26,106 --> 00:00:28,626 Speaker 2: and the civil service. And it's about the people who 5 00:00:28,646 --> 00:00:32,526 Speaker 2: got in the way on matters of principle with what 6 00:00:32,546 --> 00:00:36,616 Speaker 2: the Trump administration was trying to do. It's about mission-driven people, 7 00:00:37,136 --> 00:00:39,976 Speaker 2: people who are finding a life or found a life 8 00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:44,046 Speaker 2: for themselves that's much more than just about themselves. and 9 00:00:44,086 --> 00:00:46,386 Speaker 2: who I think in many ways are the best among us. 10 00:00:47,746 --> 00:00:50,166 Speaker 2: And it sort of asks the question, if these people 11 00:00:50,226 --> 00:00:52,746 Speaker 2: no longer belong in our government, what does it say 12 00:00:52,786 --> 00:00:55,516 Speaker 2: about us? So stay tuned until the end of this 13 00:00:55,566 --> 00:01:02,996 Speaker 2: episode for a preview. Welcome to Judging Sam, the trial 14 00:01:03,036 --> 00:01:08,136 Speaker 2: of Sam Bankman-Fried. I'm Michael Lewis. Sam is the founder 15 00:01:08,176 --> 00:01:11,176 Speaker 2: of a cryptocurrency exchange called FTX that at one point 16 00:01:11,216 --> 00:01:15,246 Speaker 2: was worth $ 40 billion. Some thought that he'd bring cryptocurrency 17 00:01:15,286 --> 00:01:18,206 Speaker 2: into the mainstream. Others thought that he might save the 18 00:01:18,246 --> 00:01:21,916 Speaker 2: world with his philanthropy. But instead, his fortune is gone, 19 00:01:22,296 --> 00:01:24,676 Speaker 2: and he's been charged with financial crimes that could put 20 00:01:24,716 --> 00:01:27,256 Speaker 2: him in prison for the rest of his life. I 21 00:01:27,296 --> 00:01:29,556 Speaker 2: spent a year and a half reporting on Sam. I 22 00:01:29,596 --> 00:01:32,156 Speaker 2: was there for the good days, which were astronomically good. 23 00:01:32,946 --> 00:01:36,166 Speaker 2: And I was there for the catastrophic collapse. While Sam 24 00:01:36,206 --> 00:01:40,046 Speaker 2: was under house arrest, I visited him often. And I 25 00:01:40,066 --> 00:01:42,666 Speaker 2: wrote a book about it all. It's called Going Infinite, 26 00:01:43,286 --> 00:01:46,266 Speaker 2: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon. You can 27 00:01:46,286 --> 00:01:48,466 Speaker 2: hear more about the book and Sam's backstory in our 28 00:01:48,486 --> 00:01:51,286 Speaker 2: last episode. But now we're picking up where the book 29 00:01:51,326 --> 00:01:54,306 Speaker 2: left off and following the trial that will decide Sam's fate. 30 00:01:55,706 --> 00:01:57,806 Speaker 2: I won't be able to go every day, but producer 31 00:01:57,866 --> 00:02:00,776 Speaker 2: and reporter Lydia Jean Cott will. And she and I 32 00:02:00,816 --> 00:02:03,356 Speaker 2: will be talking regularly about the twists and turns of 33 00:02:03,376 --> 00:02:08,116 Speaker 2: the proceedings. And we'll bring you more, like interviews with experts, eyewitnesses, 34 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:11,516 Speaker 2: and sources I've developed throughout my time reporting on Sam. 35 00:02:13,096 --> 00:02:15,586 Speaker 2: In this episode, Lydia Jean has questions for me and 36 00:02:15,646 --> 00:02:19,606 Speaker 2: Rebecca Mermelstein, a defense attorney at the law firm O'Melveny & Myers. 37 00:02:20,946 --> 00:02:23,086 Speaker 2: We'll talk about what we can expect to happen today, 38 00:02:23,686 --> 00:02:27,566 Speaker 2: which is the first day of Sam's trial. So Lydia Jean, 39 00:02:27,586 --> 00:02:28,526 Speaker 2: what's on your mind? 40 00:02:29,486 --> 00:02:33,506 Speaker 3: Thanks, Michael, and welcome, Rebecca. We're recording this on September 26th, 41 00:02:34,386 --> 00:02:36,956 Speaker 3: but it's exciting to think that when this episode comes out, 42 00:02:37,336 --> 00:02:40,036 Speaker 3: Sam's trial will be underway. As I'm getting ready to 43 00:02:40,076 --> 00:02:42,416 Speaker 3: report on it, I have a few questions for both 44 00:02:42,456 --> 00:02:45,696 Speaker 3: of you. Michael, I'm going to start with you. So 45 00:02:45,716 --> 00:02:48,736 Speaker 3: I was wondering if maybe we could go back to 46 00:02:48,776 --> 00:02:52,636 Speaker 3: the beginning of this chapter of Sam's life. Where were 47 00:02:52,676 --> 00:02:55,836 Speaker 3: you when you heard that Sam McMinfreed had been indicted? 48 00:02:57,216 --> 00:02:59,296 Speaker 2: God, you know, it's funny. I don't remember where I 49 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:03,536 Speaker 2: was then because the trouble had been brewing for so 50 00:03:03,596 --> 00:03:04,486 Speaker 2: long before then. 51 00:03:04,556 --> 00:03:04,826 Speaker 3: I was. 52 00:03:06,646 --> 00:03:08,386 Speaker 2: God, I might have been in the Bahamas. I was 53 00:03:08,446 --> 00:03:12,186 Speaker 2: back and forth for this period from the point that 54 00:03:12,306 --> 00:03:17,486 Speaker 2: FTX collapsed in November of last year to the point 55 00:03:17,526 --> 00:03:21,756 Speaker 2: when he's extradited in end of December. I was in 56 00:03:21,776 --> 00:03:23,376 Speaker 2: Bahamas at least half the time. 57 00:03:23,696 --> 00:03:25,756 Speaker 3: Yeah. And what were you thinking when all of this 58 00:03:26,336 --> 00:03:28,516 Speaker 3: was beginning? How did you process it at the time? 59 00:03:28,536 --> 00:03:32,116 Speaker 2: It unraveled so quickly. It went from being a company 60 00:03:32,156 --> 00:03:35,576 Speaker 2: that venture capitalists were valuing at $ 40 billion to to 61 00:03:35,616 --> 00:03:38,236 Speaker 2: a company that was bankrupt in like three days. And 62 00:03:38,956 --> 00:03:42,276 Speaker 2: when that happened, I had a couple of thoughts at once. 63 00:03:42,376 --> 00:03:45,716 Speaker 2: Several of these thoughts I had were ignoble. The ignoble 64 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:47,896 Speaker 2: thought was, I wasn't quite sure how I was going 65 00:03:47,926 --> 00:03:49,286 Speaker 2: to write this book. And now I know how I'm 66 00:03:49,306 --> 00:03:51,566 Speaker 2: going to write this book. And the story is unbelievable. 67 00:03:51,606 --> 00:03:53,086 Speaker 2: And I can't believe I'm sitting in the middle of 68 00:03:53,126 --> 00:03:56,686 Speaker 2: it and getting to watch it. The immediate thought was 69 00:03:56,706 --> 00:04:00,466 Speaker 2: the incredulity at the panic in the air, that there 70 00:04:00,506 --> 00:04:03,596 Speaker 2: are hundreds of employees of FTX in the Bahamas who 71 00:04:03,656 --> 00:04:08,396 Speaker 2: just ran for the airport. And it was this wonderful quiet. 72 00:04:09,396 --> 00:04:12,706 Speaker 2: It was just me and Sam and Sam's parents and 73 00:04:12,746 --> 00:04:16,506 Speaker 2: Sam's therapists and one or two brave souls from FTX 74 00:04:16,526 --> 00:04:21,706 Speaker 2: who hadn't fled. I also thought how curious it was, 75 00:04:22,336 --> 00:04:25,516 Speaker 2: the speed with which it went from this pretty widely 76 00:04:25,576 --> 00:04:31,796 Speaker 2: admired and reputable operation to being viewed as this vast 77 00:04:31,856 --> 00:04:35,436 Speaker 2: criminal enterprise. without there being a whole lot of new data, 78 00:04:35,716 --> 00:04:38,596 Speaker 2: except for the fact the money was in the wrong place. 79 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:41,056 Speaker 2: The money wasn't there. It was supposed to be $ 15 80 00:04:40,956 --> 00:04:43,996 Speaker 2: billion inside of FTX, and a lot of that was 81 00:04:44,036 --> 00:04:46,336 Speaker 2: not inside FTX. It was clearly inside of Sam's hedge fund. 82 00:04:46,776 --> 00:04:50,316 Speaker 2: But before the most important executives in the place could 83 00:04:50,356 --> 00:04:52,556 Speaker 2: explain what had happened or had any idea what had happened, 84 00:04:53,056 --> 00:04:56,546 Speaker 2: everybody changed their mind all at once. So it's just 85 00:04:56,566 --> 00:04:59,826 Speaker 2: like how fast it went from one judgment to another judgment. 86 00:05:00,526 --> 00:05:03,666 Speaker 3: Was there a part of you that was like, maybe 87 00:05:03,726 --> 00:05:06,626 Speaker 3: this will all blow over? Or were you like, there's 88 00:05:06,666 --> 00:05:08,806 Speaker 3: a before and there's an after, and now this is 89 00:05:09,066 --> 00:05:10,806 Speaker 3: an after. Things will never be the same. 90 00:05:12,676 --> 00:05:16,876 Speaker 2: That's a good question. No, I thought things would never 91 00:05:16,936 --> 00:05:19,576 Speaker 2: be the same. Sam thought for the first five or 92 00:05:19,616 --> 00:05:22,496 Speaker 2: six weeks that he was going to revive the exchange 93 00:05:22,536 --> 00:05:26,666 Speaker 2: with the help of some Asian crypto people, and that 94 00:05:26,686 --> 00:05:30,386 Speaker 2: this was all resolvable. I couldn't really see that path. 95 00:05:31,246 --> 00:05:34,636 Speaker 2: And that these things run on trust. And it went 96 00:05:34,676 --> 00:05:38,016 Speaker 2: from being very trusted, like nothing in crypto is that trusted. 97 00:05:38,436 --> 00:05:41,656 Speaker 2: But as things go in crypto, maybe the most trusted, 98 00:05:42,176 --> 00:05:45,916 Speaker 2: I mean, its brand was trust to being completely not trusted. 99 00:05:46,476 --> 00:05:48,756 Speaker 2: And once that happens, it's very hard to kind of 100 00:05:48,796 --> 00:05:51,396 Speaker 2: get it back. So I didn't think he was coming back. 101 00:05:51,436 --> 00:05:53,576 Speaker 2: It was interesting to watch him flop around, trying to 102 00:05:53,616 --> 00:05:56,996 Speaker 2: figure out how to get it back. The other thing 103 00:05:57,036 --> 00:06:00,116 Speaker 2: I remember, and Rebecca can speak to this, The lawyers 104 00:06:00,176 --> 00:06:01,676 Speaker 2: came in and out. His lawyers came in and out 105 00:06:01,696 --> 00:06:03,806 Speaker 2: a couple of times. And I remember talking to them 106 00:06:04,226 --> 00:06:09,526 Speaker 2: early December, mid-December, how long it would take before the 107 00:06:09,586 --> 00:06:13,526 Speaker 2: United States government actually felt it had its case and 108 00:06:13,546 --> 00:06:15,646 Speaker 2: it was strong enough that they wanted the Bahamas to 109 00:06:15,726 --> 00:06:19,686 Speaker 2: extradite him and then bring him to the States. And 110 00:06:19,706 --> 00:06:22,366 Speaker 2: I remember the lawyers thinking they had many months, like 111 00:06:22,866 --> 00:06:24,476 Speaker 2: they didn't think this was going to happen that fast 112 00:06:24,496 --> 00:06:26,696 Speaker 2: because it was too complicated and everybody needed to understand 113 00:06:26,716 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 2: what happened first. And so that was a shock to everyone, 114 00:06:31,016 --> 00:06:34,256 Speaker 2: even the pros, like how fast they got him out 115 00:06:34,276 --> 00:06:36,396 Speaker 2: of there and how fast they got him here. 116 00:06:37,916 --> 00:06:41,626 Speaker 3: Rebecca, could you maybe just summarize what exactly Sam has 117 00:06:41,646 --> 00:06:43,226 Speaker 3: been charged with? Sure. 118 00:06:43,246 --> 00:06:47,786 Speaker 1: I think they largely fall into really three related issues. 119 00:06:48,266 --> 00:06:51,686 Speaker 1: The first is there's an allegation that he defrauded the 120 00:06:51,766 --> 00:06:55,386 Speaker 1: investors in FTX and basically by lying, right? And that's 121 00:06:55,406 --> 00:06:57,286 Speaker 1: going to be a theme here again and again and 122 00:06:57,326 --> 00:07:00,686 Speaker 1: again about misrepresentation. So there's some charges that relate to 123 00:07:01,326 --> 00:07:06,496 Speaker 1: lies and defrauding of investors in FTX. There are alleged 124 00:07:06,576 --> 00:07:09,976 Speaker 1: lies to lenders. So there were loans that had been 125 00:07:10,016 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 1: made to his entities, and there's allegations that he lied 126 00:07:12,756 --> 00:07:15,856 Speaker 1: to those lenders, both to get money from them and 127 00:07:15,896 --> 00:07:17,616 Speaker 1: then to keep money from them, to keep them from 128 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:20,606 Speaker 1: taking their money back. And then, of course, lies to 129 00:07:20,826 --> 00:07:27,116 Speaker 1: FTX customers, to people who were sending money at currency, right? Dollars, yen, lira, 130 00:07:27,616 --> 00:07:30,696 Speaker 1: two accounts that were purportedly held at FTX. It turns 131 00:07:30,736 --> 00:07:32,736 Speaker 1: out they were largely held at Alameda. That's part of 132 00:07:32,756 --> 00:07:35,946 Speaker 1: the problem. And then stealing that money from his customers 133 00:07:36,166 --> 00:07:38,986 Speaker 1: without their knowledge. So that's the big framework. I think 134 00:07:39,006 --> 00:07:41,746 Speaker 1: those are the three areas you're going to hear the 135 00:07:41,806 --> 00:07:45,086 Speaker 1: most about at the trial. That breaks down into seven 136 00:07:45,146 --> 00:07:48,046 Speaker 1: different charges in this case. Often you're going to see 137 00:07:48,126 --> 00:07:51,286 Speaker 1: a what we call a substantive offense, that he did 138 00:07:51,306 --> 00:07:53,886 Speaker 1: a certain crime, he committed a certain crime, and also 139 00:07:53,926 --> 00:07:56,846 Speaker 1: a conspiracy, which is a companion to it, right? It's 140 00:07:56,886 --> 00:07:59,306 Speaker 1: a separate crime to agree to commit the crime with 141 00:07:59,346 --> 00:08:00,686 Speaker 1: other people. And so you're going to see those go 142 00:08:00,736 --> 00:08:03,256 Speaker 1: together a lot. So you have a wire fraud on 143 00:08:03,276 --> 00:08:06,736 Speaker 1: the FTX customers and a conspiracy to do that same thing. 144 00:08:07,216 --> 00:08:10,756 Speaker 1: You have a wire fraud on Alameda's lenders. You have 145 00:08:10,776 --> 00:08:13,616 Speaker 1: a conspiracy to do that same thing. And then you 146 00:08:13,656 --> 00:08:18,946 Speaker 1: have conspiracy to commit securities fraud in relation to FTX investors, 147 00:08:19,686 --> 00:08:25,026 Speaker 1: a conspiracy to commit commodities fraud on FTX customers, and finally, 148 00:08:25,166 --> 00:08:28,026 Speaker 1: money laundering, which basically is an allegation that he was 149 00:08:28,166 --> 00:08:29,786 Speaker 1: hiding the money he was stealing. 150 00:08:30,366 --> 00:08:33,806 Speaker 2: It's interesting to me, if a layperson reads the charges, 151 00:08:35,246 --> 00:08:39,866 Speaker 2: they can't visualize the crime. I think of the problem 152 00:08:39,926 --> 00:08:41,986 Speaker 2: as all one big problem. The money was in the 153 00:08:42,026 --> 00:08:45,136 Speaker 2: wrong place. And that's pretty simple. Like money that should 154 00:08:45,156 --> 00:08:47,476 Speaker 2: have been in cold storage and FTX was in the 155 00:08:47,496 --> 00:08:50,496 Speaker 2: hot little hands of Alameda Research. And then it gets 156 00:08:50,596 --> 00:08:53,716 Speaker 2: framed with all these complicated words and in kind of 157 00:08:54,076 --> 00:08:56,766 Speaker 2: abstract terms, like wire fraud. How does that even come 158 00:08:56,806 --> 00:08:59,306 Speaker 2: about as an idea that we're going to charge him 159 00:09:00,046 --> 00:09:02,986 Speaker 2: not with the money being in the wrong place, but 160 00:09:03,026 --> 00:09:06,966 Speaker 2: in him sending electronic messages that hide the fact that 161 00:09:07,006 --> 00:09:08,066 Speaker 2: the money is in the wrong place? 162 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:10,656 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's really a 163 00:09:10,776 --> 00:09:15,716 Speaker 1: quirk of the federal system. which is to say something happens. 164 00:09:16,056 --> 00:09:18,716 Speaker 1: Everyone has the feeling it's a crime. You have to 165 00:09:18,816 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 1: match it to a statute. There has to be something 166 00:09:21,256 --> 00:09:24,796 Speaker 1: that makes it a crime. But the reason wire fraud 167 00:09:25,376 --> 00:09:28,976 Speaker 1: is a federal crime is because after you have to 168 00:09:29,036 --> 00:09:32,296 Speaker 1: have the misleading statement and the effort to defraud, you 169 00:09:32,336 --> 00:09:36,046 Speaker 1: have to have an interstate or international wire. And that 170 00:09:36,166 --> 00:09:39,046 Speaker 1: gives the federal government the power to regulate it, and 171 00:09:39,066 --> 00:09:41,986 Speaker 1: it gives federal prosecutors the power to prosecute it. So 172 00:09:42,026 --> 00:09:43,306 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a funny quirk. 173 00:09:45,046 --> 00:09:47,576 Speaker 3: If Sam is found guilty on all seven counts that 174 00:09:47,616 --> 00:09:49,816 Speaker 3: he's been charged with, how long could he go to 175 00:09:49,856 --> 00:09:50,376 Speaker 3: prison for? 176 00:09:51,136 --> 00:09:53,296 Speaker 1: The maximum as a matter of law is a little 177 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: over 100 years. 178 00:09:54,636 --> 00:09:57,356 Speaker 3: Is that likely, though? Would he serve them consecutively? 179 00:09:57,376 --> 00:10:00,256 Speaker 1: It's a great question. So you can structure a sentence 180 00:10:00,496 --> 00:10:04,026 Speaker 1: a lot of different ways. Will he actually get 110 181 00:10:04,026 --> 00:10:07,406 Speaker 1: years in prison? It would be a very extraordinary sentence 182 00:10:07,446 --> 00:10:11,496 Speaker 1: for a white-collar defendant, even a white-collar defendant at this scale. 183 00:10:13,096 --> 00:10:15,216 Speaker 1: I think it's unlikely. The statute say this is the 184 00:10:15,376 --> 00:10:17,706 Speaker 1: most amount of time a judge could give him in jail. 185 00:10:18,246 --> 00:10:22,606 Speaker 1: But the sentencing guidelines are a very complicated algorithm that 186 00:10:22,666 --> 00:10:26,186 Speaker 1: gives judges a recommended range for someone. And in a 187 00:10:26,306 --> 00:10:30,926 Speaker 1: fraud case, the overwhelming most important factor is the loss 188 00:10:30,966 --> 00:10:33,446 Speaker 1: amount in the case. And this one's obviously off the charts. 189 00:10:33,906 --> 00:10:36,046 Speaker 1: And so his guidelines range here, I haven't looked at it, 190 00:10:36,116 --> 00:10:38,776 Speaker 1: but I'm almost certain will be life in prison, which 191 00:10:38,816 --> 00:10:41,176 Speaker 1: is not very useful as a recommendation to a judge. 192 00:10:41,576 --> 00:10:43,416 Speaker 1: So I would say he's looking at a lot of time, 193 00:10:43,556 --> 00:10:46,096 Speaker 1: but you shouldn't use the statutory maximum sentence as a 194 00:10:46,136 --> 00:10:47,356 Speaker 1: presumption about what he's looking at. 195 00:10:47,976 --> 00:10:51,486 Speaker 3: Sam's now in jail at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn. 196 00:10:52,376 --> 00:10:54,846 Speaker 3: And his lawyers have been saying that the fact that 197 00:10:54,926 --> 00:10:57,536 Speaker 3: he's held there has been making it hard for them 198 00:10:57,596 --> 00:11:00,156 Speaker 3: to work with him. You've had clients at the Metropolitan 199 00:11:00,176 --> 00:11:02,956 Speaker 3: Detention Center, is that right? I have. Can you describe 200 00:11:02,976 --> 00:11:04,716 Speaker 3: what it's been like to work with them? 201 00:11:05,366 --> 00:11:09,066 Speaker 1: There's no question it's extraordinarily harder to help someone prepare 202 00:11:09,086 --> 00:11:11,966 Speaker 1: for trial or even for any part of their case 203 00:11:12,166 --> 00:11:14,506 Speaker 1: when they're in prison for any number of reasons. Prisoners, 204 00:11:14,586 --> 00:11:18,006 Speaker 1: by and large, can't make phone calls. They do have 205 00:11:18,116 --> 00:11:21,476 Speaker 1: some access to phone time. Those phone calls are recorded 206 00:11:21,856 --> 00:11:25,506 Speaker 1: in every instance. There is inmate email. Again, the government 207 00:11:25,566 --> 00:11:28,446 Speaker 1: has access to that. They are almost certainly reading Sam 208 00:11:28,466 --> 00:11:31,006 Speaker 1: Bankman Freed's emails. And you don't want to risk that 209 00:11:31,026 --> 00:11:32,606 Speaker 1: they're going to look at something you're saying to your client. 210 00:11:33,066 --> 00:11:35,546 Speaker 1: So if you think about what that means about visiting 211 00:11:35,586 --> 00:11:37,726 Speaker 1: your client, that means every time you want to see 212 00:11:37,746 --> 00:11:40,246 Speaker 1: your client, you have to go out to Brooklyn. MDC 213 00:11:40,286 --> 00:11:42,516 Speaker 1: is kind of a little bit in the middle of nowhere, 214 00:11:42,596 --> 00:11:44,796 Speaker 1: relatively speaking. It's not an easy place to get to. 215 00:11:45,426 --> 00:11:47,526 Speaker 1: You have to go through prison security. You have to 216 00:11:47,586 --> 00:11:49,456 Speaker 1: lock your possessions in a locker. You have to go 217 00:11:49,476 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 1: through a metal detector. There are very strict rules about 218 00:11:52,216 --> 00:11:55,036 Speaker 1: what colors you can wear. You can't wear colors that 219 00:11:55,056 --> 00:11:58,436 Speaker 1: are the colors of inmate uniforms. So no khaki, no orange. 220 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:01,356 Speaker 1: And then there's a lot of waiting, right? There's a 221 00:12:01,376 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 1: lot of bureaucracy. And you are really at the mercy 222 00:12:04,216 --> 00:12:06,936 Speaker 1: of a BOP prison guard who's not all that interested 223 00:12:06,976 --> 00:12:09,156 Speaker 1: in being helpful. And so you wait. You wait to 224 00:12:09,176 --> 00:12:10,816 Speaker 1: be let into the visiting room. You wait for them 225 00:12:10,856 --> 00:12:13,966 Speaker 1: to bring your client down. Twice a day, inmates are counted. 226 00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:16,586 Speaker 1: That is the whole prison shuts down so that every 227 00:12:16,626 --> 00:12:19,486 Speaker 1: single person can be counted and nobody can leave or 228 00:12:19,566 --> 00:12:22,046 Speaker 1: enter at that time. Sometimes it takes an hour. So 229 00:12:22,106 --> 00:12:24,316 Speaker 1: you could get stuck, you're done, but you can't leave. 230 00:12:24,696 --> 00:12:26,256 Speaker 1: Or the other way, you could be waiting to get in. 231 00:12:26,516 --> 00:12:30,996 Speaker 1: So everything is very, very, very slow. And without seeming 232 00:12:31,036 --> 00:12:33,316 Speaker 1: rhyme or reason, there's often just a shutdown and you 233 00:12:33,336 --> 00:12:36,236 Speaker 1: get there and you can't go in. So it's extremely frustrating, 234 00:12:36,296 --> 00:12:37,016 Speaker 1: as you might imagine. 235 00:12:37,516 --> 00:12:37,816 Speaker 2: Yeah. 236 00:12:37,996 --> 00:12:41,056 Speaker 3: I actually tried to visit the MDC yesterday. A half 237 00:12:41,076 --> 00:12:43,746 Speaker 3: an hour Uber and And they were doing prisoner count. 238 00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:46,116 Speaker 3: And I wasn't allowed in. And they made me stand 239 00:12:46,176 --> 00:12:48,756 Speaker 3: in this basically bus stop area where I couldn't see 240 00:12:48,916 --> 00:12:51,836 Speaker 3: anything that was happening at all. And I gave up 241 00:12:52,056 --> 00:12:52,816 Speaker 3: and went home. 242 00:12:52,856 --> 00:12:54,536 Speaker 2: Did you actually knock on the door and say, can 243 00:12:54,576 --> 00:12:54,976 Speaker 2: I come in? 244 00:12:55,736 --> 00:12:58,236 Speaker 3: I stood in front of the door. And then a 245 00:12:58,296 --> 00:12:59,536 Speaker 3: guard came up to me and asked me what I 246 00:12:59,596 --> 00:13:01,476 Speaker 3: was doing. And I said I was a journalist. And 247 00:13:01,516 --> 00:13:03,276 Speaker 3: he said, you can't come in. 248 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:05,656 Speaker 2: You had no one to see, though. You had no 249 00:13:05,756 --> 00:13:06,376 Speaker 2: purpose there. 250 00:13:06,476 --> 00:13:07,796 Speaker 3: I know. I just wanted to see how far I 251 00:13:07,856 --> 00:13:08,616 Speaker 3: would get. Yeah. 252 00:13:10,366 --> 00:13:12,406 Speaker 2: You're the only one in America trying to get into jail. 253 00:13:13,166 --> 00:13:15,206 Speaker 3: Yeah, I did not make it very far. I made 254 00:13:15,246 --> 00:13:17,106 Speaker 3: it right to the front steps. 255 00:13:18,806 --> 00:13:29,916 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Welcome back to Judging Sam, the 256 00:13:29,956 --> 00:13:31,436 Speaker 2: trial of Sam Bankman Freed. 257 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:34,056 Speaker 3: Rebecca, I was wondering if you could give us a 258 00:13:34,076 --> 00:13:35,886 Speaker 3: preview of what we should expect to happen on the 259 00:13:35,906 --> 00:13:36,246 Speaker 3: first day. 260 00:13:37,076 --> 00:13:39,796 Speaker 1: Sure. So the first thing I expect will largely consist 261 00:13:39,876 --> 00:13:43,396 Speaker 1: of jury selection, which is to say that people will 262 00:13:43,416 --> 00:13:47,136 Speaker 1: be brought in in a veneer, 30, 40, 50 people 263 00:13:47,156 --> 00:13:50,356 Speaker 1: at a time typically. And these are people who live 264 00:13:50,556 --> 00:13:52,886 Speaker 1: in the New York City area. So it's going to 265 00:13:52,916 --> 00:13:57,266 Speaker 1: include Manhattan, the Bronx, Westchester, and a few of the 266 00:13:57,326 --> 00:14:00,986 Speaker 1: southernmost counties of the Southern District of New York. And 267 00:14:01,006 --> 00:14:02,806 Speaker 1: they're going to have received a summons in the mail 268 00:14:02,846 --> 00:14:04,806 Speaker 1: that tells them to come in. They won't know that 269 00:14:04,826 --> 00:14:07,886 Speaker 1: they're coming in for any particular case. And actually, there'll 270 00:14:07,906 --> 00:14:09,886 Speaker 1: be hundreds of people sitting in a main room called 271 00:14:10,006 --> 00:14:13,826 Speaker 1: up in groups to whatever courtroom needs to pick a 272 00:14:13,846 --> 00:14:16,386 Speaker 1: jury that day. It may not only be Sam Bankman 273 00:14:16,406 --> 00:14:20,876 Speaker 1: Freed next week. And then the judge will ask a 274 00:14:20,936 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 1: series of questions, some of which are virtually standard for 275 00:14:23,596 --> 00:14:26,236 Speaker 1: every single criminal trial, and other of which the parties 276 00:14:26,276 --> 00:14:28,576 Speaker 1: have asked the judge to ask, and he's agreed, that 277 00:14:28,616 --> 00:14:31,856 Speaker 1: are specific to this trial, to try to ascertain a 278 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:35,116 Speaker 1: few things. Is this a person who can sit At 279 00:14:35,136 --> 00:14:37,636 Speaker 1: this trial or any trial, for example, if you don't 280 00:14:37,696 --> 00:14:39,876 Speaker 1: speak English fluently, then you can't be a juror. 281 00:14:40,336 --> 00:14:40,536 Speaker 2: Right. 282 00:14:41,016 --> 00:14:43,256 Speaker 1: If you have a medical condition, that means you can't 283 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:44,776 Speaker 1: sit for a long period of time in a chair. 284 00:14:44,956 --> 00:14:46,736 Speaker 1: You can't be a juror. Do you have a small 285 00:14:46,756 --> 00:14:49,136 Speaker 1: child at home and you're not able to stay, you know, 286 00:14:49,216 --> 00:14:50,966 Speaker 1: until five o'clock because you have to do school pickups? 287 00:14:50,986 --> 00:14:52,966 Speaker 1: You're going to get a lot of people who just say, 288 00:14:53,066 --> 00:14:55,546 Speaker 1: I can't be here for logistical reasons, some of whom 289 00:14:55,586 --> 00:14:56,846 Speaker 1: really can't and some of whom just don't want to 290 00:14:56,866 --> 00:14:58,906 Speaker 1: be on a jury. And then you're going to get 291 00:14:58,966 --> 00:15:02,466 Speaker 1: people who have strong opinions about facts that are related 292 00:15:02,506 --> 00:15:04,606 Speaker 1: to this case that they are going to say or 293 00:15:04,626 --> 00:15:07,826 Speaker 1: the parties are going to determine, make them unable to 294 00:15:07,866 --> 00:15:10,206 Speaker 1: be an impartial juror. If you lost money in the 295 00:15:10,286 --> 00:15:12,986 Speaker 1: FTX bankruptcy, you probably can't be a juror on this case. 296 00:15:13,646 --> 00:15:16,416 Speaker 1: If you are best friends with Chris Everdell, who's one 297 00:15:16,456 --> 00:15:19,416 Speaker 1: of Sam Bankman's lawyers, then you probably can't be on 298 00:15:19,436 --> 00:15:21,576 Speaker 1: this jury. And so you'll have a long process of 299 00:15:21,596 --> 00:15:25,296 Speaker 1: trying to weed through people who can really be impartial 300 00:15:25,396 --> 00:15:28,016 Speaker 1: and sit in a fair way and listen to the 301 00:15:28,076 --> 00:15:30,596 Speaker 1: facts and learn them for the first time and not 302 00:15:30,616 --> 00:15:33,236 Speaker 1: be affected by what they may have heard other places 303 00:15:33,296 --> 00:15:36,086 Speaker 1: and decide. And I could be wrong. Judge Kaplan's a 304 00:15:36,106 --> 00:15:38,646 Speaker 1: very efficient judge, but that is very likely to take 305 00:15:38,686 --> 00:15:40,866 Speaker 1: the whole first day and that will be all that happens. 306 00:15:40,906 --> 00:15:42,826 Speaker 1: And it's a little interesting for a few minutes and 307 00:15:42,846 --> 00:15:43,826 Speaker 1: then it gets a little repetitive. 308 00:15:44,246 --> 00:15:47,246 Speaker 2: Is it possible it goes on for a much longer time? 309 00:15:47,666 --> 00:15:48,066 Speaker 2: Can it take weeks? 310 00:15:48,086 --> 00:15:52,156 Speaker 1: It certainly could. I would say it's not unusual for 311 00:15:52,176 --> 00:15:54,796 Speaker 1: it to spill into a second day. It would be 312 00:15:54,936 --> 00:15:58,536 Speaker 1: pretty unusual for it to spill into a third, but 313 00:15:58,556 --> 00:15:59,236 Speaker 1: it could. 314 00:15:59,676 --> 00:16:03,056 Speaker 3: You mentioned that Judge Kaplan is pretty efficient. So yeah, 315 00:16:03,076 --> 00:16:05,136 Speaker 3: the judge in this case, his name is Lewis Kaplan. 316 00:16:05,496 --> 00:16:08,056 Speaker 3: And Rebecca, you're a former prosecutor in the Southern District 317 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:10,136 Speaker 3: of New York. That's the office that's bringing this case 318 00:16:10,176 --> 00:16:10,636 Speaker 3: against Sam. 319 00:16:10,856 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: That's right. 320 00:16:11,456 --> 00:16:12,916 Speaker 3: What can you tell us about Judge Kaplan? 321 00:16:13,216 --> 00:16:15,346 Speaker 1: So I never tried a case in front of Judge Kaplan, 322 00:16:15,446 --> 00:16:18,246 Speaker 1: but I would say his reputation is as someone who is... 323 00:16:19,146 --> 00:16:22,626 Speaker 1: Very smart, very confident in his own decision making. He 324 00:16:22,806 --> 00:16:27,466 Speaker 1: makes decisions quickly. Some judges have a reputation that whoever 325 00:16:27,546 --> 00:16:30,166 Speaker 1: spoke last kind of convinces them. I don't think that's 326 00:16:30,286 --> 00:16:33,236 Speaker 1: true with him. And I think on balance, he's seen 327 00:16:33,266 --> 00:16:36,276 Speaker 1: as someone who's a good judge for the government, both 328 00:16:36,336 --> 00:16:40,236 Speaker 1: because I think he's friendly to the government's purpose, which 329 00:16:40,276 --> 00:16:42,696 Speaker 1: is not to say that he's not impartial, but he's 330 00:16:42,736 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 1: not kind of doesn't have an anti-prosecutor bent. And at 331 00:16:47,056 --> 00:16:49,386 Speaker 1: the end of the day, I always felt as a prosecutor, 332 00:16:49,586 --> 00:16:51,186 Speaker 1: and now I still feel this way as a defense lawyer, 333 00:16:51,586 --> 00:16:54,926 Speaker 1: that judges who are rigorous about enforcing the rules of 334 00:16:54,966 --> 00:16:59,656 Speaker 1: the courtroom, about enforcing limitations on what's admissible and the 335 00:16:59,696 --> 00:17:02,496 Speaker 1: rules of evidence, are better for the government because the 336 00:17:02,556 --> 00:17:05,756 Speaker 1: government is more likely to be playing by the book. 337 00:17:06,036 --> 00:17:08,576 Speaker 1: And as defense lawyers, we often are trying to find 338 00:17:08,616 --> 00:17:10,346 Speaker 1: a little more wiggle room. And so a judge who 339 00:17:10,366 --> 00:17:12,626 Speaker 1: doesn't allow that is better for the government than for 340 00:17:12,646 --> 00:17:13,756 Speaker 1: the defense. Right. 341 00:17:13,796 --> 00:17:16,606 Speaker 3: It's like the rule followers versus the rule breakers. 342 00:17:18,206 --> 00:17:19,346 Speaker 1: I don't know that I like to think about myself 343 00:17:19,386 --> 00:17:21,106 Speaker 1: now as a rule breaker, but it's a fair point. 344 00:17:21,906 --> 00:17:22,846 Speaker 3: Rule skeptics. 345 00:17:23,046 --> 00:17:25,546 Speaker 1: Yes, the rule skeptics. I think that's right. And of course, 346 00:17:25,566 --> 00:17:27,606 Speaker 1: the other thing that's interesting about Judge Kaplan here is 347 00:17:27,646 --> 00:17:30,766 Speaker 1: that the defendant has really pissed him off by his 348 00:17:31,306 --> 00:17:34,526 Speaker 1: pretrial antics, if you will. And I don't think that 349 00:17:34,566 --> 00:17:36,756 Speaker 1: Judge Kaplan is going to let that affect the way 350 00:17:36,836 --> 00:17:39,576 Speaker 1: he handles the trial itself, but I think it's a 351 00:17:39,576 --> 00:17:40,456 Speaker 1: bad sign for sentencing. 352 00:17:41,296 --> 00:17:43,526 Speaker 3: Right. I was going to say, like, In a case 353 00:17:43,546 --> 00:17:46,566 Speaker 3: like this, what difference does who the judge is make? 354 00:17:46,666 --> 00:17:47,966 Speaker 3: Because at the end of the day, right, it's the 355 00:17:48,006 --> 00:17:50,176 Speaker 3: jury that decides whether Sam is guilty or innocent. 356 00:17:50,436 --> 00:17:52,096 Speaker 1: Oh, but I think the judge makes an enormous amount 357 00:17:52,116 --> 00:17:55,156 Speaker 1: of difference in lots of ways. The first is that 358 00:17:55,576 --> 00:17:58,656 Speaker 1: there are lots of evidentiary rulings that could go either way, 359 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:01,886 Speaker 1: that reasonable minds can disagree. And trial judges have an 360 00:18:01,946 --> 00:18:05,726 Speaker 1: enormous amount of discretion to control the flow of evidence 361 00:18:05,746 --> 00:18:09,336 Speaker 1: in their courtrooms. Some judges, even though they tell a jury, 362 00:18:09,696 --> 00:18:12,016 Speaker 1: you shouldn't read anything into my questions. You shouldn't read 363 00:18:12,056 --> 00:18:14,776 Speaker 1: anything into how I rule on objections. I don't have 364 00:18:14,816 --> 00:18:18,816 Speaker 1: any opinion. Juries love judges. They watch judges for signs 365 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:21,726 Speaker 1: and they interpret every single thing the judge is doing. 366 00:18:21,846 --> 00:18:25,126 Speaker 1: So again, really matters. And then judges have an enormous 367 00:18:25,166 --> 00:18:29,446 Speaker 1: amount of discretion at sentencing. And so if you can, 368 00:18:29,606 --> 00:18:31,546 Speaker 1: there actually are statistics published on this. You can see 369 00:18:31,656 --> 00:18:35,316 Speaker 1: some judges are really light sentencers. Some are really harsh sentences. Again, 370 00:18:35,396 --> 00:18:36,096 Speaker 1: it really matters. 371 00:18:36,376 --> 00:18:39,676 Speaker 3: Okay. Another question for you, Rebecca. Let's move forward to 372 00:18:39,816 --> 00:18:42,636 Speaker 3: opening statements. If you were to make a bingo card 373 00:18:43,236 --> 00:18:45,826 Speaker 3: for what you would expect the prosecution and the defense 374 00:18:45,866 --> 00:18:48,486 Speaker 3: to say in their opening statements, what would you put 375 00:18:48,546 --> 00:18:51,286 Speaker 3: on those cards? Let's start with the prosecution. Okay. 376 00:18:51,306 --> 00:18:54,526 Speaker 1: That's a fun question. You'll see, I predict, that the 377 00:18:54,586 --> 00:18:57,446 Speaker 1: government's opening will have the same form it always does. 378 00:18:57,466 --> 00:19:00,246 Speaker 1: It's going to have what's called a grab, a quick, pithy, 379 00:19:00,546 --> 00:19:03,506 Speaker 1: kind of interesting way to grab the jury's attention. And 380 00:19:03,546 --> 00:19:05,706 Speaker 1: then they'll kind of pause. They're going to explain what 381 00:19:05,826 --> 00:19:08,766 Speaker 1: happened here. They're going to tell the story of the 382 00:19:08,806 --> 00:19:11,766 Speaker 1: downfall of FTX. And then they'll talk about how they're 383 00:19:11,786 --> 00:19:13,926 Speaker 1: going to prove that to the jury, who's going to 384 00:19:13,966 --> 00:19:15,946 Speaker 1: come talk to them, what kind of documents they're going 385 00:19:15,966 --> 00:19:17,586 Speaker 1: to see. So they're going to talk about lies. They're 386 00:19:17,606 --> 00:19:20,936 Speaker 1: going to say, lie, lie, lie, lie to FTX investors, 387 00:19:21,436 --> 00:19:24,556 Speaker 1: lied to customers, lied to lenders. I think there's a 388 00:19:24,596 --> 00:19:29,176 Speaker 1: possibility that you'll hear some kind of victim vignettes, right? 389 00:19:29,236 --> 00:19:32,716 Speaker 1: The the little old lady in Topeka who lost her 390 00:19:32,736 --> 00:19:35,696 Speaker 1: life savings in the downfall, right? Because it puts a 391 00:19:35,736 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 1: human element on it. Otherwise, it's a little abstract and 392 00:19:38,616 --> 00:19:41,176 Speaker 1: you want to really say, these are real people. This 393 00:19:41,276 --> 00:19:45,436 Speaker 1: wasn't monopoly money. It mattered. So I expect you'll hear 394 00:19:45,456 --> 00:19:51,166 Speaker 1: about victims. I think you'll hear the word victim. I 395 00:19:51,206 --> 00:19:55,086 Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if you heard things like greed, right? 396 00:19:55,526 --> 00:19:58,646 Speaker 1: And I guess that's not enough words for a bingo card. 397 00:19:58,806 --> 00:19:59,426 Speaker 3: No, it's though. 398 00:19:59,446 --> 00:20:02,646 Speaker 1: But I think that's probably the top ones I'd pick. 399 00:20:02,906 --> 00:20:05,326 Speaker 1: And if you're the defense, you're going to hear a 400 00:20:05,386 --> 00:20:08,606 Speaker 1: lot about cooperators, I predict. As I think has been 401 00:20:08,626 --> 00:20:11,626 Speaker 1: sort of widely published at this point, there are people 402 00:20:11,706 --> 00:20:14,726 Speaker 1: who have pled guilty and agreed to cooperate in this trial. 403 00:20:15,286 --> 00:20:16,506 Speaker 1: And so the defense is going to have to go 404 00:20:16,566 --> 00:20:18,696 Speaker 1: on the offense there. And you're going to hear a 405 00:20:18,736 --> 00:20:22,206 Speaker 1: lot about why those people can't be trusted, what their 406 00:20:22,246 --> 00:20:26,156 Speaker 1: incentives were to cooperate, and why they're lying. I also 407 00:20:26,196 --> 00:20:28,076 Speaker 1: think you're going to hear a lot about a rush 408 00:20:28,156 --> 00:20:32,056 Speaker 1: to judgment. This moved really fast. And so it moved 409 00:20:32,096 --> 00:20:34,296 Speaker 1: so fast in ways that the jury won't actually get 410 00:20:34,316 --> 00:20:36,956 Speaker 1: to hear about that charges had to be dropped because 411 00:20:36,976 --> 00:20:39,526 Speaker 1: they weren't brought fast enough and the government got over 412 00:20:39,586 --> 00:20:41,386 Speaker 1: its skis. And you're going to want to say they 413 00:20:41,426 --> 00:20:44,706 Speaker 1: don't understand what happened. They saw this thing. These young, 414 00:20:44,746 --> 00:20:47,806 Speaker 1: hungry prosecutors wanted to make a name for themselves, and 415 00:20:47,866 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 1: they jump the gun and they don't really understand it. 416 00:20:51,166 --> 00:20:52,786 Speaker 1: And I think tied to that theme is going to 417 00:20:52,806 --> 00:20:56,006 Speaker 1: be complexity, right? This stuff is hard to understand. It's 418 00:20:56,206 --> 00:20:59,406 Speaker 1: easy to make a mistake. Either that the government has 419 00:20:59,446 --> 00:21:02,386 Speaker 1: made a mistake or that Sam Bankman Freed himself didn't 420 00:21:02,486 --> 00:21:04,996 Speaker 1: understand certain things. I would expect to be part of 421 00:21:05,036 --> 00:21:05,616 Speaker 1: the defense theme. 422 00:21:06,916 --> 00:21:09,336 Speaker 3: For our final question, it's for both of you. You 423 00:21:09,376 --> 00:21:11,796 Speaker 3: both have talked about how in the trial, right, the 424 00:21:11,816 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 3: prosecution is going to say a story about whether Sam 425 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:17,436 Speaker 3: is guilty or innocent and the defense is going to 426 00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:20,266 Speaker 3: say a story about whether Sam is Guilty or Innocent, 427 00:21:21,006 --> 00:21:23,606 Speaker 3: and Michael, you called it a story war. I guess 428 00:21:23,666 --> 00:21:26,086 Speaker 3: I wonder, what do you think the bigger story is? 429 00:21:26,146 --> 00:21:28,846 Speaker 3: Why should listeners care, or why do they care so 430 00:21:28,886 --> 00:21:31,326 Speaker 3: much about Sam's guilt or innocence? 431 00:21:33,226 --> 00:21:38,686 Speaker 2: It's a great question that it's puzzled me. I thought 432 00:21:38,746 --> 00:21:41,386 Speaker 2: when all this thing, when it blew up in November, 433 00:21:41,406 --> 00:21:44,346 Speaker 2: I thought by January, everybody would be bored with it. 434 00:21:44,446 --> 00:21:47,176 Speaker 2: The culture moves so fast from one story to the next, 435 00:21:47,586 --> 00:21:51,486 Speaker 2: and its memory is so short This story has not 436 00:21:51,566 --> 00:21:56,466 Speaker 2: done that. People have had an enduring interest, consuming interest 437 00:21:57,466 --> 00:22:02,546 Speaker 2: in FTX and Sam Bankman Freed. My first guess as 438 00:22:02,566 --> 00:22:05,106 Speaker 2: to why that is, is they don't feel like actually, 439 00:22:05,146 --> 00:22:08,306 Speaker 2: no matter what they say on Twitter, they don't feel 440 00:22:08,326 --> 00:22:11,396 Speaker 2: they actually understand it. So it hasn't resolved itself in 441 00:22:11,416 --> 00:22:16,606 Speaker 2: their minds is a completely clean story. There's a tinniness to, oh, 442 00:22:17,276 --> 00:22:19,676 Speaker 2: Crypto crook. He was a crypto crook from the beginning. 443 00:22:19,696 --> 00:22:22,466 Speaker 2: Nobody saw it. He fooled everybody. That story is kind 444 00:22:22,486 --> 00:22:26,386 Speaker 2: of a boring story. They know it's more interesting than that. 445 00:22:26,466 --> 00:22:29,366 Speaker 2: They just don't know. They don't know. And that they 446 00:22:29,386 --> 00:22:30,246 Speaker 2: don't know bothers them. 447 00:22:31,166 --> 00:22:31,526 Speaker 3: Do you know? 448 00:22:32,506 --> 00:22:34,846 Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, I think as best as 449 00:22:35,446 --> 00:22:37,816 Speaker 2: I've tried to describe it, and I hope the reader 450 00:22:37,856 --> 00:22:40,946 Speaker 2: puts down the book and feels their own conviction about 451 00:22:40,966 --> 00:22:44,566 Speaker 2: what happened. But it's never died down. Sam Beckman Freed 452 00:22:44,646 --> 00:22:46,926 Speaker 2: is discovered to be living on peanut butter and bread 453 00:22:47,566 --> 00:22:51,406 Speaker 2: in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn. And it's front 454 00:22:51,446 --> 00:22:55,106 Speaker 2: page news in the New York Times. People can't get 455 00:22:55,156 --> 00:22:58,616 Speaker 2: enough of it. And I think it's because they think 456 00:22:58,656 --> 00:23:00,076 Speaker 2: they don't completely understand it. 457 00:23:00,376 --> 00:23:02,036 Speaker 3: There's something about this story that's not adding up. 458 00:23:02,296 --> 00:23:02,776 Speaker 2: That's right. 459 00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:06,196 Speaker 3: We're bothered by that. We want to know. Yes. What 460 00:23:06,216 --> 00:23:06,816 Speaker 3: do you think, Rebecca? 461 00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:09,136 Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because you asked two questions, which is 462 00:23:09,836 --> 00:23:13,156 Speaker 1: why should we care and why do people care? And actually, 463 00:23:13,176 --> 00:23:15,576 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we should care as much as people do. 464 00:23:16,456 --> 00:23:20,926 Speaker 1: You know, this is in some ways just one of 465 00:23:21,006 --> 00:23:23,606 Speaker 1: so many crimes. And, you know, especially when we talk 466 00:23:23,626 --> 00:23:25,926 Speaker 1: about something like the food at the MDC, and I 467 00:23:25,966 --> 00:23:28,386 Speaker 1: think you've seen some statements in the press by the 468 00:23:28,426 --> 00:23:31,326 Speaker 1: federal defenders saying, like, we hope this press attention on 469 00:23:31,376 --> 00:23:34,816 Speaker 1: this one person will actually motivate change for everyone because 470 00:23:34,896 --> 00:23:37,616 Speaker 1: these are not new things, right? Lots of these things 471 00:23:37,896 --> 00:23:40,856 Speaker 1: are true for every person who's in jail. And MDC 472 00:23:40,896 --> 00:23:43,656 Speaker 1: is a jail for people, by and large, awaiting trial. 473 00:23:43,716 --> 00:23:46,016 Speaker 1: So every single one of them has not yet been 474 00:23:46,056 --> 00:23:49,206 Speaker 1: found guilty. And they're subject to these conditions. And why 475 00:23:49,226 --> 00:23:52,426 Speaker 1: should we care so much about this one person? Why 476 00:23:52,486 --> 00:23:54,226 Speaker 1: do we care? I think part of it is an 477 00:23:54,326 --> 00:23:57,046 Speaker 1: Icarus story, right? There's a schadenfreude to it, which is 478 00:23:57,506 --> 00:24:01,586 Speaker 1: here's this boy wonder king who seemed to be using 479 00:24:01,666 --> 00:24:06,256 Speaker 1: his brain to just print money. become so successful. And 480 00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:09,226 Speaker 1: there's a little bit of human nature to say kind 481 00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:11,226 Speaker 1: of good, right? I knew it couldn't be that easy. 482 00:24:11,686 --> 00:24:13,106 Speaker 1: If it were that easy, we'd all be doing it. 483 00:24:13,206 --> 00:24:15,926 Speaker 1: And it must have been a fraud. And I'm glad 484 00:24:15,946 --> 00:24:17,886 Speaker 1: to see him kind of get what's coming. And so 485 00:24:17,906 --> 00:24:19,806 Speaker 1: I think that creates kind of an interest in it. 486 00:24:20,366 --> 00:24:24,506 Speaker 1: And then, of course, it is important because I think 487 00:24:24,526 --> 00:24:26,636 Speaker 1: for a lot of people, crypto felt like an area 488 00:24:26,676 --> 00:24:28,816 Speaker 1: where you could print money, where anybody could make money. 489 00:24:29,656 --> 00:24:32,746 Speaker 1: And it's important for people to understand that sort of 490 00:24:32,786 --> 00:24:35,866 Speaker 1: what the cost is of having an unregulated currency. I mean, 491 00:24:35,886 --> 00:24:39,026 Speaker 1: it's more and more regulated, of course, but the dangers 492 00:24:39,066 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 1: of crypto writ large are a little bit on display 493 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:45,016 Speaker 1: when you talk about how this could fail so spectacularly. 494 00:24:45,536 --> 00:24:48,376 Speaker 1: Whether it was a crime or not, it certainly failed spectacularly. 495 00:24:48,716 --> 00:24:50,486 Speaker 3: We'll be back in a minute with one last thing. 496 00:24:59,466 --> 00:25:02,386 Speaker 3: And we're back with one last thing. Our one last 497 00:25:02,406 --> 00:25:06,646 Speaker 3: thing today is about a lawsuit against Sam's parents. Recently, 498 00:25:06,806 --> 00:25:09,366 Speaker 3: lawyers for FTX sued them in an attempt to get 499 00:25:09,426 --> 00:25:14,126 Speaker 3: money back to repay their creditors. In this suit, FTX 500 00:25:14,166 --> 00:25:18,586 Speaker 3: alleges that Sam's parents either knew or willfully ignored signs 501 00:25:18,646 --> 00:25:24,156 Speaker 3: that Sam was, quote, orchestrating a vast fraudulent scheme. I 502 00:25:24,196 --> 00:25:26,736 Speaker 3: should also note here that my boyfriend is a lawyer 503 00:25:26,816 --> 00:25:29,656 Speaker 3: at Sullivan and Cromwell. That's one of the firms that's 504 00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:33,626 Speaker 3: been representing FTX in the bankruptcy but not Sam Bankman Freed. 505 00:25:34,486 --> 00:25:36,566 Speaker 3: He and I have a firewall up about this case, 506 00:25:37,176 --> 00:25:39,556 Speaker 3: and Sylvan and Cromwell is not involved in this particular 507 00:25:39,596 --> 00:25:43,636 Speaker 3: lawsuit against Sam's parents. Rebecca, I wonder what stood out 508 00:25:43,656 --> 00:25:45,716 Speaker 3: to you most about this suit against Sam's parents. 509 00:25:46,576 --> 00:25:48,456 Speaker 1: I should preface it by saying that I am not 510 00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:50,536 Speaker 1: a bankruptcy lawyer. This is really sort of outside of 511 00:25:50,596 --> 00:25:54,106 Speaker 1: my area of interest, but I think one question it 512 00:25:54,146 --> 00:25:56,756 Speaker 1: raises for a lot of people outside the law is, 513 00:25:57,036 --> 00:25:59,096 Speaker 1: are they next? Are they going to be charged with 514 00:25:59,156 --> 00:26:02,036 Speaker 1: a crime? And what can we interpret from the fact 515 00:26:02,076 --> 00:26:05,136 Speaker 1: that this lawsuit was brought? And I think the short 516 00:26:05,176 --> 00:26:07,696 Speaker 1: answer is not that much. And I should say that 517 00:26:07,936 --> 00:26:09,656 Speaker 1: I did some homework for this one and spoke to 518 00:26:09,736 --> 00:26:11,776 Speaker 1: one of the partners at my law firm, O'Melveny, named 519 00:26:11,816 --> 00:26:14,666 Speaker 1: Daniel Shama, who's an expert in bankruptcy. So here's what 520 00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,106 Speaker 1: I learned that was really interesting, which is there's something 521 00:26:17,146 --> 00:26:21,436 Speaker 1: called a clawback in bankruptcy, which is once a bankruptcy happens, 522 00:26:21,556 --> 00:26:24,076 Speaker 1: you can claw back, you can take back money from 523 00:26:24,136 --> 00:26:27,116 Speaker 1: people who got money from the entity that went bankrupt. 524 00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:29,636 Speaker 1: And there's rules about how that works. There's time limits. 525 00:26:29,656 --> 00:26:31,476 Speaker 1: There's all kinds of things. But the one that's the 526 00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: most relevant here is called a fraudulent transfer. And what 527 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:38,736 Speaker 1: that means is that within a window of a number 528 00:26:38,756 --> 00:26:41,996 Speaker 1: of years before the bankruptcy, you can take back money 529 00:26:42,036 --> 00:26:45,206 Speaker 1: from people who got it if two different kinds of 530 00:26:45,246 --> 00:26:50,116 Speaker 1: things happened. One is that There was an actual intent 531 00:26:50,236 --> 00:26:53,266 Speaker 1: to defraud creditors. That's the legal language. And what I 532 00:26:53,296 --> 00:26:56,006 Speaker 1: mean by that is you knew the ship was sinking, 533 00:26:56,406 --> 00:26:57,846 Speaker 1: so you gave a lot of money to your parents 534 00:26:58,086 --> 00:27:00,186 Speaker 1: so that it would be there for you, right? That 535 00:27:00,206 --> 00:27:03,026 Speaker 1: would be a fraudulent transfer because you were doing it 536 00:27:03,186 --> 00:27:05,746 Speaker 1: to keep the money away from creditors in the bankruptcy, 537 00:27:05,846 --> 00:27:09,926 Speaker 1: people who were owed money. The other one is when 538 00:27:09,966 --> 00:27:11,966 Speaker 1: it might have been that the person who got money 539 00:27:12,106 --> 00:27:15,416 Speaker 1: didn't even know that they were doing anything wrong, but 540 00:27:15,436 --> 00:27:20,196 Speaker 1: they received something for, quote, less than reasonably equivalent value 541 00:27:20,356 --> 00:27:23,646 Speaker 1: or fair consideration. So what does that mean? If I 542 00:27:23,686 --> 00:27:27,606 Speaker 1: give you a Monet, right, from my company and I 543 00:27:27,646 --> 00:27:29,626 Speaker 1: only charge you a dollar for it, you have not 544 00:27:29,666 --> 00:27:32,806 Speaker 1: paid reasonable consideration for it, right? It's another way of 545 00:27:32,946 --> 00:27:36,206 Speaker 1: getting the money out of the entity before the ship sinks. 546 00:27:36,426 --> 00:27:38,746 Speaker 3: So the idea is still you gave me the Monet 547 00:27:38,786 --> 00:27:40,986 Speaker 3: because you wanted the Monet to be safe? 548 00:27:41,606 --> 00:27:43,446 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be that that's why. In other words, 549 00:27:43,606 --> 00:27:46,386 Speaker 1: if I gave it to you and it wasn't really justified, 550 00:27:46,886 --> 00:27:49,996 Speaker 1: even if there wasn't necessarily a nefarious intent. There can 551 00:27:50,036 --> 00:27:54,016 Speaker 1: be enough for a clawback. And so, you know, you 552 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:59,176 Speaker 1: can imagine, for example, you know, the person who delivers 553 00:27:59,296 --> 00:28:02,656 Speaker 1: copy paper to FTX realizes things are not going well. 554 00:28:02,696 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: And they say, we'd like you to pay our bill 555 00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:07,336 Speaker 1: in full right now instead of normally gets paid every 556 00:28:07,336 --> 00:28:10,606 Speaker 1: 60 days. That's not, there's nothing fraudulent about that. But 557 00:28:10,866 --> 00:28:13,006 Speaker 1: now this creditor might have gotten more than their fair 558 00:28:13,066 --> 00:28:15,986 Speaker 1: share than someone else, right? So that's another kind of 559 00:28:16,026 --> 00:28:18,596 Speaker 1: place where you'd have clawback. He'd say, well, wait a minute. 560 00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:20,076 Speaker 1: We have to get all the money back in one 561 00:28:20,096 --> 00:28:22,616 Speaker 1: place and give everyone their fair share. You don't get 562 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:24,876 Speaker 1: to pay it in full, right? So I think the 563 00:28:24,896 --> 00:28:30,716 Speaker 1: question with Sam's parents here is, were these fraudulent transfers? 564 00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:34,336 Speaker 1: And obviously the allegation is yes, that they knew or 565 00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:36,666 Speaker 1: should have known that this money that came to them 566 00:28:37,146 --> 00:28:40,746 Speaker 1: was not legitimate. What's the punchline? That is just a 567 00:28:40,996 --> 00:28:44,566 Speaker 1: totally different standard than a criminal standard. To say that 568 00:28:44,606 --> 00:28:47,966 Speaker 1: they should have understood that something was awry or that 569 00:28:48,326 --> 00:28:51,066 Speaker 1: they got money that they didn't really deserve, right? Did 570 00:28:51,106 --> 00:28:53,406 Speaker 1: they earn that for some reason? What were they doing 571 00:28:53,426 --> 00:28:58,546 Speaker 1: that justified these huge payments? That's different than they knowingly 572 00:28:58,646 --> 00:29:02,146 Speaker 1: participated in the crime and they themselves did things in 573 00:29:02,186 --> 00:29:04,866 Speaker 1: furtherance of it. So I don't think you can read 574 00:29:04,946 --> 00:29:08,426 Speaker 1: from this civil lawsuit that charges against them are likely, 575 00:29:09,146 --> 00:29:12,486 Speaker 1: but I also don't think it's impossible. There are allegations 576 00:29:12,526 --> 00:29:16,476 Speaker 1: that Sam's mother in particular told him to hide certain 577 00:29:16,996 --> 00:29:21,596 Speaker 1: donor identity information in connection with campaign contributions. That's a little, 578 00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:24,056 Speaker 1: if that's true, that's kind of a suggestion that she 579 00:29:24,096 --> 00:29:27,166 Speaker 1: committed a crime. And of course, his father was involved 580 00:29:27,206 --> 00:29:30,746 Speaker 1: in the business itself. So could they be charged? I 581 00:29:30,786 --> 00:29:32,526 Speaker 1: think time will tell, but I wouldn't read too much 582 00:29:32,566 --> 00:29:33,206 Speaker 1: into this lawsuit. 583 00:29:34,926 --> 00:29:38,936 Speaker 3: Well, Michael Lewis, Rebecca Mermelstein, I am excited to cover 584 00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:40,576 Speaker 3: the trial and check in with both of you. 585 00:29:40,776 --> 00:29:41,276 Speaker 2: Thank you, LJ. 586 00:29:41,296 --> 00:29:42,596 Speaker 3: Anytime. Anytime. 587 00:29:44,346 --> 00:29:47,236 Speaker 2: This episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Lydia Jean Cott. 588 00:29:48,636 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 2: Catherine Girardeau and Nisha Venkat produced this show. Sophie Crane 589 00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:56,126 Speaker 2: is our editor. Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi 590 00:29:56,266 --> 00:30:00,066 Speaker 2: and John Evans of Stellwagen Symphonette. Judging Sam is a 591 00:30:00,106 --> 00:30:03,646 Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries. Got a question or comment for me? 592 00:30:03,986 --> 00:30:12,386 Speaker 2: There's a website for that, atrpodcast.com. That's atrpodcast.com. To find 593 00:30:12,426 --> 00:30:16,186 Speaker 2: more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 594 00:30:16,786 --> 00:30:19,766 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like 595 00:30:19,806 --> 00:30:23,746 Speaker 2: to access bonus episodes and listen ad-free, don't forget to 596 00:30:23,766 --> 00:30:27,656 Speaker 2: sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin.fm slash 597 00:30:27,736 --> 00:30:39,586 Speaker 2: plus or on our Apple show page. Gavin usually showed 598 00:30:39,646 --> 00:30:41,286 Speaker 2: up in the middle of the day. He was always 599 00:30:41,346 --> 00:30:44,306 Speaker 2: late to work with some updated plan to cut the 600 00:30:44,446 --> 00:30:48,606 Speaker 2: IRS workforce. The origin of these plans remained a mystery, 601 00:30:49,286 --> 00:30:51,286 Speaker 2: but every time he had a new one, he sent 602 00:30:51,306 --> 00:30:53,506 Speaker 2: it to all the department heads and asked them to 603 00:30:53,546 --> 00:30:57,506 Speaker 2: scheme out how, say, they'd survive with half their staff. 604 00:30:58,586 --> 00:31:03,346 Speaker 2: Late one afternoon, a senior IRS official discovered Gavin alone 605 00:31:03,386 --> 00:31:07,896 Speaker 2: in a room studying the IRS org chart He was 606 00:31:07,956 --> 00:31:10,496 Speaker 2: going through all the little boxes and asking, what do 607 00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:12,856 Speaker 2: you think this office does, and do you think we 608 00:31:12,876 --> 00:31:15,966 Speaker 2: need an office like this? I have this memo due, 609 00:31:16,026 --> 00:31:18,786 Speaker 2: and I have to come up with an answer. I 610 00:31:18,806 --> 00:31:20,706 Speaker 2: could see the stress he was under. He was kind 611 00:31:20,726 --> 00:31:22,446 Speaker 2: of freaking out. He was like, I have a hard 612 00:31:22,506 --> 00:31:24,836 Speaker 2: engineering problem to solve, and I'm trying to solve it. 613 00:31:25,826 --> 00:31:29,236 Speaker 2: The day the IRS official watched him toil away, Gavin 614 00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:34,136 Speaker 2: eventually settled on the little org chart box labeled Communications 615 00:31:34,516 --> 00:31:39,316 Speaker 2: and Liaisons. He asked, what's this, recalled the official. All 616 00:31:39,356 --> 00:31:41,796 Speaker 2: he knew was the name. The office dealt with all 617 00:31:41,816 --> 00:31:46,246 Speaker 2: congressional inquiries, media requests, and FOIA requests, and basically every 618 00:31:46,306 --> 00:31:49,346 Speaker 2: demand for information from the IRS by the outside world. 619 00:31:50,286 --> 00:31:53,546 Speaker 2: Having learned no more than its name, Gavin called the 620 00:31:53,586 --> 00:31:56,446 Speaker 2: person in charge of the Office of Communications and Liaison, 621 00:31:56,826 --> 00:31:59,866 Speaker 2: Jody Reynolds, and told her that she needed to fire 622 00:31:59,886 --> 00:32:05,286 Speaker 2: her entire 350-person staff. Until Gavin started spitballing, it was 623 00:32:05,346 --> 00:32:08,906 Speaker 2: unclear what any day's agenda might be. I figured out 624 00:32:08,966 --> 00:32:12,246 Speaker 2: something important about the IRS, he now said, on March 3rd. 625 00:32:13,146 --> 00:32:18,206 Speaker 2: He paused for effect. Oh no, thought Kathleen. Every agency 626 00:32:18,246 --> 00:32:23,106 Speaker 2: has a superpower, said Gavin. The IRS's superpower is data. 627 00:32:24,336 --> 00:32:26,676 Speaker 2: Everyone in the agency knew that its data was valuable. 628 00:32:27,356 --> 00:32:29,696 Speaker 2: That was the reason for the strict laws that prevented 629 00:32:29,736 --> 00:32:33,346 Speaker 2: it from being exploited for profit or political gain. He 630 00:32:33,426 --> 00:32:35,366 Speaker 2: said this in a way that he expected everyone to 631 00:32:35,426 --> 00:32:38,166 Speaker 2: clap when he was done, said Kathleen. No one said 632 00:32:38,206 --> 00:32:42,116 Speaker 2: a word. The people around the table, a group that 633 00:32:42,156 --> 00:32:44,376 Speaker 2: included a woman who had worked at the IRS for 634 00:32:44,376 --> 00:32:48,596 Speaker 2: 54 years, or 53 years and 50 weeks longer than 635 00:32:48,636 --> 00:32:53,216 Speaker 2: Gavin Kleiger, looked down or away. As Kathleen's fear had 636 00:32:53,256 --> 00:32:58,366 Speaker 2: turned to pity, her pity now turned to something else. Embarrassment. 637 00:32:59,246 --> 00:33:03,936 Speaker 2: She felt embarrassed for Gavin Kleiger. but now it was 638 00:33:03,996 --> 00:33:08,236 Speaker 2: clear what the meeting was about. Gavin wanted, in his words, 639 00:33:08,536 --> 00:33:13,396 Speaker 2: to explore how we can share our data with other agencies. Interestingly, 640 00:33:13,776 --> 00:33:18,096 Speaker 2: he never once mentioned ICE or DHS. Instead, that week, 641 00:33:18,686 --> 00:33:21,466 Speaker 2: he sought to share data with himself by trying to 642 00:33:21,626 --> 00:33:26,226 Speaker 2: access files detailing IRS contracts with outside consultants that also 643 00:33:26,286 --> 00:33:31,916 Speaker 2: contained taxpayer information. Kathleen denied him access. The following Monday, 644 00:33:31,996 --> 00:33:35,416 Speaker 2: she received a cryptic text from a senior IRS official. 645 00:33:36,656 --> 00:33:39,116 Speaker 2: I'm going to call your cell, but don't answer, he read. 646 00:33:40,096 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 2: Her phone rang, and she dutifully stared at it. Then 647 00:33:43,296 --> 00:33:46,526 Speaker 2: came the second text. Gavin is asking where your office 648 00:33:46,666 --> 00:33:48,786 Speaker 2: is and is now trying to find you to fire 649 00:33:48,846 --> 00:33:51,846 Speaker 2: you because he says that you're the blocker. 650 00:33:52,966 --> 00:33:53,526 Speaker 3: The blocker. 651 00:33:54,346 --> 00:33:57,766 Speaker 2: It was one of the Muskrat's favorite terms. Elon used 652 00:33:57,806 --> 00:34:00,786 Speaker 2: it all the time. The blocker was the person who 653 00:34:00,826 --> 00:34:05,056 Speaker 2: didn't understand progress. The person without vision. The person who 654 00:34:05,076 --> 00:34:07,236 Speaker 2: could not see beyond the way things were to the 655 00:34:07,276 --> 00:34:09,576 Speaker 2: way they ought to be. The person who didn't want 656 00:34:09,596 --> 00:34:12,576 Speaker 2: to live on Mars, or possibly even care if anyone 657 00:34:12,596 --> 00:34:17,036 Speaker 2: ever got there. The inferior person. Tracy had been a blocker. 658 00:34:17,696 --> 00:34:20,426 Speaker 2: Find the blockers between us and what we want, Elon 659 00:34:20,466 --> 00:34:24,186 Speaker 2: told his young followers. Find the blockers and eliminate them. 660 00:34:25,146 --> 00:34:29,426 Speaker 2: Maybe more than anything else, Doge wanted the data. Kathleen 661 00:34:29,466 --> 00:34:33,186 Speaker 2: was the person blocking them from getting it. The IRS 662 00:34:33,226 --> 00:34:36,466 Speaker 2: executive offices where Gavin was stationed were on the third floor. 663 00:34:37,326 --> 00:34:40,026 Speaker 2: Kathleen's office was in a corner of the seventh floor, 664 00:34:40,566 --> 00:34:42,986 Speaker 2: where it was quieter and she could get a lot done. 665 00:34:43,826 --> 00:34:47,046 Speaker 2: Her office windows had been bomb-proofed and sealed shut after 666 00:34:47,086 --> 00:34:50,296 Speaker 2: the 9-11 attacks, and so she couldn't access the terrace, 667 00:34:50,876 --> 00:34:53,396 Speaker 2: but she still had a view, which she loved, of 668 00:34:53,416 --> 00:34:57,616 Speaker 2: the Capitol Dome. To the standard-issued KGB furniture, she'd added 669 00:34:57,736 --> 00:35:01,116 Speaker 2: two small gold round end tables she'd found in her parents' 670 00:35:01,176 --> 00:35:05,906 Speaker 2: garage back in 2020, right after her mom died. One 671 00:35:05,926 --> 00:35:09,186 Speaker 2: wall had her daughter's schedule and another a poster with 672 00:35:09,346 --> 00:35:13,326 Speaker 2: Al Capone's mugshot under the words, It took an accountant 673 00:35:13,406 --> 00:35:16,476 Speaker 2: to catch Al Capone. The mob boss had finally been 674 00:35:16,506 --> 00:35:19,716 Speaker 2: sent to jail for tax evasion. Otherwise, the office was 675 00:35:19,776 --> 00:35:23,556 Speaker 2: pretty spare. A small coffee station and some file cabinets 676 00:35:23,636 --> 00:35:26,616 Speaker 2: and in one corner in an ancient metal box that 677 00:35:26,656 --> 00:35:30,656 Speaker 2: appeared to predate the building. But inside were keys to 678 00:35:30,776 --> 00:35:34,976 Speaker 2: every office in her department. Removing one, she walked down 679 00:35:35,016 --> 00:35:38,496 Speaker 2: the hall to a small conference room. She entered, locked 680 00:35:38,516 --> 00:35:41,596 Speaker 2: the door behind her, and switched off the lights. There 681 00:35:41,636 --> 00:35:45,126 Speaker 2: she sat, in the dark, listening for the squeak of 682 00:35:45,206 --> 00:35:50,066 Speaker 2: Nike sneakers on the terrazzo hallway. I said, I'm not 683 00:35:50,126 --> 00:35:51,086 Speaker 2: getting fired today.