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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Monday morning, Sunday afternoon. I'm taping this

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Speaker 1: for what it's worth. Welcome to the Chuck Todcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Chuck Todd. As I told you, I'll be honest, I'm

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Speaker 1: recording this as I am watching the University of Miami

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Speaker 1: in the bottom of the sixth inning here, because yes,

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Speaker 1: the College World Series is on the line. And again

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Speaker 1: I want to say that two most underrated college sports

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Speaker 1: tournaments are the women's softball and men's baseball. Maybe the

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Speaker 1: regular season doesn't get enough play, and maybe it's worthy

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't get enough play. I'll low the NBA

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Speaker 1: regular season, but wow, is the postseason of both of

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Speaker 1: those sports a lot of fun, a lot of just

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Speaker 1: sudden deafness, and there is no lead that is safe.

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Speaker 1: It is a ton of fun. So I hope you

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Speaker 1: have a team worth following, because if it is, you

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Speaker 1: will experience this too. I'm also it's pretty exciting in

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Speaker 1: my household. It's the beginning of me becoming an empty nester,

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Speaker 1: and who knows what that means for for my own

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Speaker 1: focus on life and what it'll mean for how much

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Speaker 1: time I can devote even to this even more I

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Speaker 1: have kid there of course, I've got lots of time

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Speaker 1: to devote to this, but look, I want to continue

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Speaker 1: the conversation on the Musk Trump feud, because when the

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Speaker 1: news first broke about Trump Musk, I'll be honest, I

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Speaker 1: didn't buy it at first. You heard that in my

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Speaker 1: initial reaction because I've seen this movie before and I've

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Speaker 1: learned to apply what we're all applying. We're all applying

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Speaker 1: the Taco rule to Trump. Right, the acronym Trump always

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Speaker 1: chickens out, and you know you can. Trump can talk

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Speaker 1: about a lot of threats. He talks tough, he picks fights,

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Speaker 1: but more often than not, when it comes time to

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Speaker 1: follow through, especially against someone who is richer or more powerful,

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Speaker 1: he backs off. He's backed off with China, He's backed

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Speaker 1: off with Putin, he packed off, you name it. He

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Speaker 1: backs off. He blusters, he threatens, but he rarely escalates.

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Speaker 1: If he really thinks there's going to be a real

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Speaker 1: cost he has to pay. So that's why he's being

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Speaker 1: mister Taco these days. You could also argue he's fire

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Speaker 1: on the outside and soft shell on the inside. And

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Speaker 1: with Elon Musk, the richest man on earth, Trump may

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Speaker 1: huff and puff, but history suggests you won't totally blow

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Speaker 1: Musk's house down, not if he thinks there's a chance

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Speaker 1: it could hurt him. But I'll admit now, this time

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Speaker 1: this feels different because Musk isn't just another wealthy donor.

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Speaker 1: He's a symbol. He's a bridge between MAGA and the

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Speaker 1: tech elite. And now that bridge is burning, and the

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Speaker 1: split exposes something crucial. MAGA is a majority inside the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party, but it is not a majority among Republican

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Speaker 1: elected officials, and it certainly doesn't dominate the donor class.

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Speaker 1: You can win the base and still lose the machinery

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Speaker 1: because that machinery runs on two things, votes in Congress

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Speaker 1: and money in the bank, and Trump is suddenly running

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Speaker 1: short on both. Musk's money matter. As Steve Bannett admitted

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Speaker 1: to me on my first episode of Sunday Night with

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Speaker 1: Chuck Todd. Yes, it's my new video show video podcast

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Speaker 1: on the news Sphere platform. I hope you go and

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Speaker 1: check it out. Newsphere is a news based appos P

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Speaker 1: H E R E can go download it now and

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Speaker 1: check it out. But what Bannon told me is he

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Speaker 1: thinks without Musks cash and twenty twenty four Trump might

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Speaker 1: have lost outright. The investment, he noted, was targeted at

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Speaker 1: low propensity, low information voters, and while he didn't say

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Speaker 1: he thought Trump would lose without Musk's money, he did

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Speaker 1: tell me he thought, well, maybe Democrats hold the House,

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Speaker 1: and the election is certainly a lot closer in those

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Speaker 1: battleground states because the people least likely to turn out

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Speaker 1: were potentially Trump were Trump voters, and Musk's money helped

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Speaker 1: target those voters. So it isn't a small loss to

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Speaker 1: the GOP or the MAGA movement not to have Musks millions,

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Speaker 1: because it is a financial blow. Musk wasn't just donating,

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Speaker 1: he was validating as well. His support was a signal

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Speaker 1: that the tech pro libertarian crowd that it was okay

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Speaker 1: to work with Trump. Now, the question is if the

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Speaker 1: split with Musk means it's a split with the entire

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Speaker 1: tech crowd, and that's you know, look, this is a

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Speaker 1: this is actually part of a bigger problems. Our political

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Speaker 1: parties are increasingly coalitions of convenience, not conviction. MAGA dominates

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Speaker 1: the GOP base, but not the elected class. Progressives dominate

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Speaker 1: the online energy and the Democratic Party but not its leadership.

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Speaker 1: And when coalitions stretch beyond their natural ideological limits. Then

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Speaker 1: you get some snapping every now and then. We're seeing

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Speaker 1: it on the right right now, with essentially just impossible disagreements. Right,

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Speaker 1: you can't be in favor of medicaid expansion and in

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Speaker 1: favor of austerity, and you see those limits. The Rick

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Speaker 1: Scotts versus the Josh Hollies. Both are conservatives, both are

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Speaker 1: Trump friendly, and both couldn't be more ideologically at odds

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Speaker 1: when it comes to spending money. And that's where we are,

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Speaker 1: and it's on both sides. And this Trump Must feud

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Speaker 1: is just lowed to snap so far because ultimately right Musk,

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Speaker 1: Musk does have somewhat of an ideology, and Trump really does.

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Speaker 1: Must thought he had made a transactional deal. Support Trump,

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Speaker 1: get access and get hit his way. But the problem

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Speaker 1: with Trump is that while he is always for sale,

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Speaker 1: the deals aren't very stable. He views it not as

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Speaker 1: buying off but his tribute. He wants payment, then he

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Speaker 1: wants more payment, just for the privilege of being in

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Speaker 1: the room. He treats every donor like a customer at

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Speaker 1: a protection racket. You're not buying influence, you're paying to

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Speaker 1: be left alone. But there's no doubt must thought he

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Speaker 1: had bought influence, and weirdly, voters seemed to accept this premise,

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Speaker 1: and may be why this obvious corruption in plain sight

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Speaker 1: has yet to stick to him politically the way it

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Speaker 1: would have for a previous you know, and look, this

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Speaker 1: would have stuck really hard to Obama because it's the

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Speaker 1: exact opposite of the person who presented himself as This

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Speaker 1: would have stuck a lot harder at George W. Bush

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Speaker 1: because it's the exact opposite of the person he is.

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Speaker 1: But Trump always presented himself that way. Trump never pretended otherwise.

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Speaker 1: From the very beginning, Trump admitted he donated to politician

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Speaker 1: to get what he wanted. That's how he explained away

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Speaker 1: his support for Democrats. Ah, I just supported Democrats to

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Speaker 1: get what I wanted. And so he just assumes and

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Speaker 1: he asks others to do the same. So for him,

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Speaker 1: that's why many of his voters. Doesn't look like a scandal,

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Speaker 1: just looks like consistency. But if Musk tries to go

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Speaker 1: scorched to Earth, say, cut off starlink usage from the Pentagon,

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Speaker 1: mess with NASA, punish the Pentagon, he'll lose more than

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Speaker 1: Trump will because Trump's Yes, Musk is powerful, but he's

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Speaker 1: not irreplaceable. There's Boeing, there's Blue Origin, There's always some

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Speaker 1: other entity that could replace what Musk does. It wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be great, may not be as good for a while.

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Speaker 1: Trust me, I'll be honest. I drive another electric car,

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Speaker 1: not a Tesla. Tesla's technology is better, but there are

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Speaker 1: little things that you could tell the elon Musk's sloppiness. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's a terrible ride, and it's a terrible looking vehicle.

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Speaker 1: It is not a good looking vehicle. It is sloppy,

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Speaker 1: but it is really good on the tech stuff, and

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Speaker 1: it's better than other electric cars on the tech stuff,

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Speaker 1: and sort of the Trump thing, you know. But eventually

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Speaker 1: everybody else will catch up to the better stuff, and Trump,

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Speaker 1: for awless chaos, still owns this stage. He may be

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Speaker 1: term limited, but he can make Musk bleed so badly

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Speaker 1: over the next two years. He could destroy musks companies

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Speaker 1: before his term is up, and Musk and Musk has

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Speaker 1: figured this out. But all of this, the fact that

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Speaker 1: we're sort of held hostage by this feud, speaks to

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Speaker 1: a larger rot in this system. Our institutions are two

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Speaker 1: week Congress seated way too much power to the presidency.

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Speaker 1: Both parties allowed themselves to be vulnerable to being hijacked

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Speaker 1: by energetic minorities. Corporate money has replaced citizen lobby. Regulation

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Speaker 1: is completely for sale, not necessarily always to the highest bidder,

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Speaker 1: but the most persistent bidder. We don't have representative democracy anymore.

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Speaker 1: We have an auction democracy, and the Trump must fall

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Speaker 1: out is just the latest symptom, not the cause. So

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Speaker 1: if you're in the third party space, or you're trying

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Speaker 1: to build an alternative coalition on either side of the out,

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Speaker 1: beware the frog and scorpion dynamic. If you think Musk

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Speaker 1: is suddenly a free agent, some donors sting because that's

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Speaker 1: their nature. Musk might bankroll operation one day and blow

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Speaker 1: it up the next. Just ask the MAGA movement. Because

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Speaker 1: genius and instability often come in the same package. That's

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Speaker 1: why we don't elect inventors. Edison wasn't president either with

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Speaker 1: Steve Jobs, and I don't think anybody thought either one

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Speaker 1: of them had the temperament to be president because brilliance

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Speaker 1: in one domain doesn't mean wisdom in another. Musk entered

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Speaker 1: government like a chainsaw. He didn't want to learn he

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Speaker 1: just wanted to cut the government isn't a tech company.

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Speaker 1: You can't disrupt medicaid, you can't optimize social security, you

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Speaker 1: can't slash a trillion dollars without real pain. As it

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Speaker 1: turns out, a lot of the supposed waste he thought

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Speaker 1: he'd root out isn't waste. It's people, which brings us

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Speaker 1: back to Trump. If he has a north star on

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Speaker 1: any issue, it's tariffs, maybe immigration, everything else that's for sale.

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Speaker 1: He'll be anti crypto until someone shows him how he

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Speaker 1: can profit off of it. He's not ideological, he's transactional.

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Speaker 1: And then some always has been. And Musk, for all

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Speaker 1: his talk of reform, expected some ideology in return for

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Speaker 1: his money. But Trump only sells one thing, just more

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Speaker 1: access to Trump. So here we are the most powerful

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Speaker 1: politician and the richest man alive, ere in a pissing

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Speaker 1: and somehow it matters to the fate of our government,

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Speaker 1: the fate of our national security, the fate of our

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Speaker 1: space program. And that's the real tragedy here, that's the

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Speaker 1: real dysfunction. That's the system that we've allowed to be

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Speaker 1: created over forty years of political dysfunction. We've been in

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Speaker 1: a political recession for the entire twenty first century. Now,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't that just stay this way, but it will

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Speaker 1: unless we stop mistaking power for leadership and wealth for wisdom.

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Speaker 1: Musk may be marching alone now, but this country keeps

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Speaker 1: letting its politics be dictated by tech titans and celebrity demagogues.

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Speaker 1: And we're all going to continue to be left behind

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Speaker 1: if we continue to think that somehow there's wisdom in

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Speaker 1: allowing either idea to fester. There. So, look, I'm not

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Speaker 1: ready to declare that Musk is never coming back into

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Speaker 1: the Republican fold. He may very well fund Republican causes again,

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Speaker 1: simply is the price of paying penance, because Trump may

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Speaker 1: demand some of that if he doesn't want to lose.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's now going to hold all of these

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Speaker 1: contracts over Musk said, and he's likely to extort Musk

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Speaker 1: for money at some point on this front. And yes,

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Speaker 1: I use the word extort, and I think unfortunate. Everbody's

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Speaker 1: going to shrug their sholders. And why are they going

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Speaker 1: to shrug the shoulders Because the majority of the country

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Speaker 1: thinks all politicians operate this way in some form or another.

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Speaker 1: Trump is just more honest about it right, We've heard it.

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Speaker 1: I've repeated this. I mean Mike Johnson said that the

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Speaker 1: weirdly the most truthful and authentic thing a politician has

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Speaker 1: said in a long time about why they tolerate Trump's corruption.

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Speaker 1: He does it in plain sight. He tells you upfront,

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Speaker 1: he waves at the camera as he's shoplifting, and the

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Speaker 1: voters are sitting there going, oh well, Trump is just

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Speaker 1: exposing what all politicians are. And that's the shame in

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Speaker 1: all of this. And Musk believed the hype that all

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Speaker 1: politicians were for sale. He tried to buy off the Democrats.

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Speaker 1: That didn't work as well. He bought off Trump. And

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Speaker 1: even now he's finding out Trump if you would all

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Speaker 1: contradict him on anything, he'll bite your hand off a

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Speaker 1: few other things. Obviously, the dominant story of the moment

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Speaker 1: is no longer the must Trump feud, no matter how,

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Speaker 1: although the fact that that lasted two and a half

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Speaker 1: new cycles tells you how important it was in the

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Speaker 1: Trump era. Obviously, the big news over the last forty

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Speaker 1: eight hours has been this intentional, this manufactured crisis that

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration is trying to use in Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: to try to incite violence incite a riot and cite

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Speaker 1: protests and use it as an excuse to bring in

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Speaker 1: the National Guard, bring in military resistance to deal with immigration.

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Speaker 1: And you're seeing just about everybody in the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: is lining up behind Trump, just about everybody in the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party is expressing outrage his authoritarian instinct here to

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Speaker 1: immediately go there Stephen Miller, who never who always chooses

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Speaker 1: his words very intentionally to call this an insurrection immediately

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Speaker 1: in order to create create the rhetorical conditions to essentially

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Speaker 1: set up what Trump tried to set up, which is

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Speaker 1: to federalize the National Guard without Governor Newsom's authority. There

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Speaker 1: had been the first time that was done. It's basically

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Speaker 1: the first time that was done since segregation, when governors

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Speaker 1: refused to comply with federal orders when it came to

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Speaker 1: desegregating schools, the federal government had to use the National

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Speaker 1: Guard in some of those states to sort of force admission,

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Speaker 1: force the desegregation. So there's your historical impact there. That's

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Speaker 1: not exactly the type of history I think anybody wants

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Speaker 1: to see us be repeating, and here we are. It is.

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Speaker 1: What's been interesting is how this is, you know, the

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Speaker 1: problem is there's what's actually happening on the ground, and

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Speaker 1: then there's what's happening in the internet world. And this

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Speaker 1: is a case where literally what you're reading and seeing

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Speaker 1: online is not what's happening on the ground. There's no

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Speaker 1: doubt there's some protests, there's intentional incitement that's taking place.

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Speaker 1: There's definitely, you know, there's no doubt you can tell

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Speaker 1: here that the that the Trump forces are hoping there's

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Speaker 1: a confrontation. They want a confrontation, so they're trying to

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Speaker 1: do this and this has been set up for a

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Speaker 1: while to specifically target blue cities for these immigration raids,

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Speaker 1: you know, and this is Look, the law is the law,

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Speaker 1: and I think everybody needs to and I think Democrats

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Speaker 1: that are trying to push push back and allow people

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Speaker 1: to be overstaying visas or that that's not good politics

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Speaker 1: yet either. And we know where the country is on this.

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Speaker 1: We've seen it in the polling. You know. This is

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Speaker 1: the wisdom. So I always say the voters. I trust

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Speaker 1: the voters more than I trust any set of politicians,

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Speaker 1: because the voters generally get this right. They're generally in

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Speaker 1: favor of deporting people that are here illegally, and they're

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Speaker 1: majority in favor of making sure those people could do process,

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Speaker 1: and a majority of these people think they should be

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Speaker 1: treated humanly. So, you know, Trump sits here and only

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Speaker 1: sees the one part they want these folks to port it. Yes,

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Speaker 1: if they're here illegally, Yeah, they seem to miss the

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Speaker 1: part where they want these people treated humanely and to

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Speaker 1: have the law followed. So so this idea is, you know,

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Speaker 1: I do think we need to have a lot more

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Speaker 1: faith in each other because a majority of this country

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Speaker 1: is speaking very honestly and does want to see the

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Speaker 1: constitution followed. It is the politicians here that do not

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Speaker 1: have any interest in following the Constitution and they're not

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Speaker 1: behaving that way. The Trump administration is not behaving this way.

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Speaker 1: They see any sort of dissent as a challenge to

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Speaker 1: their authority and if they need a new educate, if

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Speaker 1: they need to be re educated on the First Amendment,

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Speaker 1: I am happy to help educate mister Miller on the

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Speaker 1: First Amendment. Happy to educate. I mean, my goodness, if

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Speaker 1: there was no First Amendment, Donald Trump would never have

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Speaker 1: been in office, right. His ability to say bullshit is

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Speaker 1: why he's presid in the United States. You have a

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Speaker 1: right to bullshit the American people. If you didn't, Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump wouldn't be president. So mister Miller needs to realize

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Speaker 1: that dissent information all of that. It's First Amendment. It's

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Speaker 1: a First Amendment protection there. But look, this is a

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Speaker 1: political trap. Republicans believe anytime Democrats look like they're standing

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Speaker 1: up for somebody that committed a crime, it puts them

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Speaker 1: on the side of criminals, puts the Republicans on the

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Speaker 1: side of the law. There's no doubt this is the

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Speaker 1: political trap that Steven Miller believes he's setting up. This

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Speaker 1: is not any interest. This is not about protecting the country.

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Speaker 1: This is about trying to politically smear the left, politically

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Speaker 1: smear all Democrats with the behavior of one or two people,

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Speaker 1: it is intentionally divisive. I would hope we can have

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Speaker 1: leadership in this country that makes an attempt to not

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Speaker 1: be divisive. Currently, the President of the United States has

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Speaker 1: no interest in bringing this country together, and he wants

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Speaker 1: to look for ways to divide us, to attack the

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Speaker 1: state of California in general. When it comes to what

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Speaker 1: they decide to do and how they conduct their school

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Speaker 1: activities and yes, sports school activities. Remember this administration wants

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Speaker 1: local control of schools unless they don't like the local

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Speaker 1: control and local decisions of school of school districts and states.

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Speaker 1: All of this there is a there's no doubt that

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Speaker 1: California is going to be is trying to Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: trying to use and Steven Miller trying to use California

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Speaker 1: as there is. They're sort of cultural punching bag, cultural

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Speaker 1: punching bag on transgender issues, cultural punching bag on environmental issues,

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Speaker 1: and cultural punching bag on immigration issues. All I ask

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Speaker 1: you is realize why they're doing it. They're not doing

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Speaker 1: it because they want they're trying to clean up the country.

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Speaker 1: They're doing it because they think it's good politics and

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Speaker 1: it's good political gain for them to do that. How

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Speaker 1: Democrats behave and react to this does matter, and just

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Speaker 1: is you have your eyes wide open and know I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is what happened. The Democrats so overreacted to Trump's

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Speaker 1: horrible policies on immigration in the first term that they

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Speaker 1: ended up being reactionary and endorsing frankly decriminalizing crossing the border. Right,

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Speaker 1: So it went from one extreme to the other. And

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Speaker 1: you know when you have one reaction. You know, the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party morphed into the MAGA Party due to just

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Speaker 1: pure reactionary frustration with the left. If the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: essentially follows the same road, they're going to create a

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Speaker 1: divisive and unpopular movement on the left that might win

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Speaker 1: elections just being not the other side. But it's no

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Speaker 1: way for long term governing, and it's no way to

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Speaker 1: build a long term future that sort of gets us

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Speaker 1: past this moment. And that's it is not clear we're

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Speaker 1: going to get past this moment. And speaking of the Democrats,

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Speaker 1: talk about a story that has been overshadowed by what's

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Speaker 1: happening with Trump Musk and what's happening in Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: with this manufactured to polarize and politicize immigration immigration enforcement.

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Speaker 1: So let me pivot to the Democratic Party. Over the weekend,

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Speaker 1: Politico reported what may turn into a five alarm fire

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Speaker 1: inside Democratic leadership circles. So far it hasn't registered, but

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling this is going to have legs

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Speaker 1: over the next few days. The newly elected chair of

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Speaker 1: the DNC, Ken Martin, was caught on what appears to

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Speaker 1: be a recorded zoom call call that included high profile

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Speaker 1: essentially the leadership of the DNC, including the vice chair

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Speaker 1: David Hogg, who of course he has been and there's

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Speaker 1: been controversy surrounding his election to vice chair since he

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Speaker 1: is trying to belongs to an organization that has pledged

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Speaker 1: to spend some twenty million dollars essentially primary old Democrats

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Speaker 1: with young Democrats. But it looks more like to be

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Speaker 1: an ideological purge progressives versus non progressives. But is essentially

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Speaker 1: an elected member of the Democratic part leadership of the

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Speaker 1: party endorsing a group of donors and going after other

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Speaker 1: fellow Democrats that has not sat well with a lot

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Speaker 1: of Democratic donors and a lot of long term Democratic activists,

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Speaker 1: and it is really hamstrung. This controversy really is overshadowed.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know who Ken Martin is. And

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Speaker 1: here he is now and he's so frustrated by this

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Speaker 1: David Hog situation that he was caught on tape essentially

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Speaker 1: saying he wondered if he was even up to the job.

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Speaker 1: He said, he said this out loud. Now he may

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Speaker 1: have been having a bad day basically sort of therapy,

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Speaker 1: and you know, out loud we all do it right.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm up to this job. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe I have to do this mess. But he

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Speaker 1: was basically blaming the David Hog situation for this, and

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Speaker 1: he was frustrated. He said, knows who he is because

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Speaker 1: of this situation. Well, guess what. Now there's two things

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Speaker 1: voters and Democratic activists are going to know about Ken Martin.

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Speaker 1: They know that he was elected from the state of Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: and now they know he's the guy that is worried

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Speaker 1: he's not up to the job. This is at a

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Speaker 1: moment where the Democratic already has a leadership crisis, already

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Speaker 1: has people wondering if they have any alpha in them

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Speaker 1: at all, And now the public brand of the newly

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Speaker 1: elected DNC chair is this politics. Perception is everything, and

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Speaker 1: Martin just defined himself as a placeholder with doubts, a

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Speaker 1: huge vulnerability. And of course this is only adding to

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Speaker 1: the vacuum of leadership across the Democratic Party. There's little

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Speaker 1: visible confidence in Hakeim Jeffreys, though he's trying at least.

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Speaker 1: There's even less confidence in Chuck Schumer. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know if he tried, whether it would be received very well.

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Speaker 1: And of course there's the constant hand ringing over Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden whether in that entire situation. A recent poll asked

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Speaker 1: Democratic voters to name the leader of their party, and

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Speaker 1: the two people topped the list was a tie at

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Speaker 1: twenty two percent, Barack Obama, who hasn't been the official

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Speaker 1: leader of the party in nine years, and Kamala Harris,

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Speaker 1: the most recent Democratic nominee. Democrats don't know who's in charge.

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Speaker 1: More importantly, they may not know who they want to

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Speaker 1: be in charge. And this isn't a new problem for Democrats.

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Speaker 1: We saw this identity crisis before, after two thousand and

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four. That's what losses do. They create

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Speaker 1: these moments. But back then there appeared to be a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a roadmap. Now the party's energy is

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Speaker 1: fractured across generational lines, institutional lines. The loudest voices are online,

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Speaker 1: the decision makers are in back rooms. They're afraid of

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Speaker 1: their own shadow, they're afraid of their voters, and none

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Speaker 1: of them seem to trust each other. We already know

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Speaker 1: the Republicans are divided. We see it right. They're sort

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Speaker 1: of governing in plain sight with their divisions. But they've

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Speaker 1: got a strong man in Trump, who papers over a

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Speaker 1: lot of those cracks. Democrats don't have that luxury. They

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Speaker 1: need some coalition management, and that was what there was,

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Speaker 1: some hope that a strong DNC chair could provide some stability.

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Speaker 1: Now it doesn't look like Ken Martin is going to

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Speaker 1: be that guy, because he's now going to get defined

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Speaker 1: by just fair unfair. It's a public moment, and it

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Speaker 1: means that he's got people inside the DNC. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was an intentional leak to pull let it goo,

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Speaker 1: which means there's somebody inside the DNC that is calling

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Speaker 1: this into question. And I you know, we'll see what

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Speaker 1: donors react. But this could be a situation where he

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Speaker 1: may end up. He may not survive the year. We

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Speaker 1: may see a replacement because of donors suddenly have don't

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Speaker 1: lack confidence in the chair. There's going to be fewer

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Speaker 1: zeros at the end of the checks that they write.

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Speaker 1: Donors will still write checks, but they may write the

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Speaker 1: minimum rather than the maximum. But you know, here we

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Speaker 1: are at a time when Republican divisions are front and center,

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Speaker 1: and you have this mess of a lack of leadership

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Speaker 1: on the Democratic side. Of course, the last time it

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Speaker 1: was a bad was nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: and two years later a guy named Bill Clinton came along.

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Speaker 1: So perhaps like the old Maw joke that John McCain

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Speaker 1: used to tell, the real version is you were supposed

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Speaker 1: to say it's always darkest before the dawn. Maybe that's

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Speaker 1: the case for the Democrats. But remember John McCain's version

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Speaker 1: of the joke was it was a joke that mal

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Speaker 1: would say it's always darkest before it goes really black.

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Speaker 1: I think we'll see if that's the situation that Democrats

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Speaker 1: are facing. All right, speaking of Democrats, I've got a

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Speaker 1: terrific actually interview here that'll be of interest to you guys.

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Speaker 1: There's a new documentary debuting this week called State of First.

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Speaker 1: It is about Sarah McBride, the first transgender member of

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Speaker 1: Congress who was elected from the state of Delaware. Well,

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Speaker 1: I've got an interview with the filmmaker and then I

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Speaker 1: have an interview with the congresswoman and everything is on

428
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: the table, including her thoughts on whether there is a

429
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: way to have a position on transgender in sports and

430
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 1: not divide the Democratic Party. So with that, let's sneak

431
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: in a break and i'll see on the other side,

432
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: because I have some questions that I'll be asking that

433
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 1: you've asked me, then I'll be asking at the end

434
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: of the interview. My guest today is Chase Joint, the

435
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: director of a new documentary. As you know, June is

436
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 1: in some ways the big month of documentary releases. I

437
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: could argue it's the beginning, very beginning of the tour

438
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 1: you make to see if you might get accolades from

439
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 1: a place called Oscar if you will. State of First

440
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: is the documentary we're going to discuss today. My guess

441
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 1: is Chase Joint, the director of State of First, which

442
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: is about Sarah McBride, the first transgender member of Congress.

443
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: This is a documentary that began before she knew she

444
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: was going to win. We have a unique way that

445
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: we're going to do this. First half hour is going

446
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 1: to be a conversation with the director. Second half hours

447
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: is going to be a conversation with the member, with

448
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: Congresswoman McBride, to talk about being in Congress, so that

449
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: it's not just all about breaking this ceiling. But I

450
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: want to talk about the documentary with Chase Joint. Now, Chase,

451
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast.

452
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: Thanks so much. Soppy to be here.

453
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: So tell me the origin story of how you got

454
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: this permission to be so you know, this is an

455
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: intimate way of doing things in the moments my favorite

456
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: tyche At documentary where you're sort of you're living it

457
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: with the director with the person that is being focused on,

458
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: which means you didn't know what the ending was going

459
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: to be. You had an idea, it's don't aware. Don't

460
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: get me wrong, I think I kind of knew where

461
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: the direction of the race was going, but you still

462
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: start with some unpredictability. So tell me how it came to.

463
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 3: Be absolutely so. Our producer, Jenna Kelly went to college

464
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 3: with Sarah and has long been in conversation with her

465
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,400
Speaker 3: about the potentials of a documentary project. And then when

466
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,719
Speaker 3: Sarah began the run for Congress, recognized that this was

467
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: probably the most important time where a documentary crew could

468
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: be invited into the scene. And I think she had

469
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: a real awareness of the political repulsiveness of the moment.

470
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: And so Jenna and the rest of our producing team

471
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: reached out to me. And a lot of my feature

472
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: film work is really reckoning with questions of transh history

473
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 3: and trans representation, and so it felt like a really

474
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 3: exciting extension of momentums that I already had.

475
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: So this is something you've been You've been doing this

476
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 1: for some time. So there was I'm guessing a less

477
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: of there had to be some comfort she had to

478
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: have with the person who was working with very much.

479
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 3: So I think we both talked to each other as

480
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: trans people and recognized that there was a kind of

481
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 3: synergy there around the types of questions we might be asking. Well,

482
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 3: of course, we're very different people with very different orientations

483
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: and a variety of different ways. There was a recognition

484
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: that we're in a heightened moment of attention around trans

485
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 3: community and trans rights, and and we knew that we

486
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: were building a project from within that space.

487
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: What were the ground roles? Where were the no go

488
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: either areas or parts that you didn't I mean, I'm

489
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: going to guess there were some.

490
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I think we benefited greatly from

491
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 3: the fact that Sarah's surrounded by an excellent team who

492
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: opens her schedule and manages in a variety of different

493
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 3: ways to give us access to themes of family behind

494
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: the scenes or in the office conversations. And we really

495
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 3: did follow the campaign lead. It's not my style as

496
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 3: a director to push into areas where we are not welcome,

497
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 3: but to actually think about the camera as a tool

498
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 3: to create context, to continue to reveal the context that

499
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 3: Sarah is working and living in. And so we said

500
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 3: yes to every opportunity that we had and recognized, you know,

501
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 3: the limitations of some of those spaces as we encountered them.

502
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 1: It was did you always have in mind how you

503
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: were going to try to bring this to and we

504
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: probably assumed she was going to win. I mean, you

505
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: stuck to plenty, so obviously I don't think, you know,

506
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 1: really the suspense was what was going to be her

507
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 1: reception right once she got to Congress, and that became

508
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: maybe I'm still naive and I'm a pretty cynical guy,

509
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: but I was surprised of that. I was surprised. I

510
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: guess I should be surprised, but I was surprised about

511
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: the initial fight over the bathroom. Yeah.

512
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 3: I think there's a variety of different ways to answer

513
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: your question, one of which is, yes, we had a

514
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: good sense that she was going to win, but we

515
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 3: did not know what was going to be happening in

516
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: the presidential election. And so the tension of Sarah's rise

517
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 3: alongside questions of Kamala Harris's ascent and the ongoing brutality

518
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 3: of Trump's re emergence. We knew that that was going

519
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 3: to be attention, and in a film that's trying to

520
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 3: think about a politics of representation and what it means

521
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 3: to actually be a first of any kind, there were

522
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 3: so many different ways that we could cross in and

523
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: out of those electoral stories. And then to your point,

524
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: I think that you know, we understood that there was

525
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: an incredibly volatile assault on trans rights that was brewing

526
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: on the right. We could not have anticipated that Sarah

527
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 3: would become the central focus of that attention in the

528
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: way that she did, and so as a filmmaking team,

529
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: we tried to walk as closely with her as possible

530
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: to reveal a kind of access and a witnessing of

531
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: that kind of story that we knew no one else

532
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 3: would be able to represent.

533
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,479
Speaker 1: I want you to address of it early on, she says,

534
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: she quotes, and I apologize for not getting the person

535
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: that she quotes correctly right here, but it's a it's

536
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: a quote about sort of political movements. You know, first

537
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: ignore you, then they mock you, then they protest you,

538
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:30,239
Speaker 1: and then you win, and it is fascinating, you know,

539
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: looks she got me thinking as I was going back right,

540
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: and at first it becomes yeah, the transgender community, there

541
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: was a lot of you know, the gay rights movement

542
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: was about the gay rights movement, and in fact, there

543
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: was real fights in the gay rights movement about whether

544
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: transgender the transgender fight was worth it. And I've been

545
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: privy to these debates that the Human Rights Campaign had

546
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: on their board and all of these things. That's no

547
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: longer the case, although you do you still run into

548
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: that in the in the gay rights community.

549
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 3: I think that you know, the umbrella of LGBTQ plus

550
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 3: rights emerged as a way in which to build bridges

551
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 3: and build coalitions across minoritized groups, and I think that

552
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 3: that has had benefit. And yet we also recognize that

553
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 3: communities have very distinct needs and are becoming the target

554
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: and focus of various socio political agendas in different ways.

555
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: And so I do think transnis and the trans community

556
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 3: need to be thought about as distinct in this moment

557
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: on account of the fact that we require coalition and

558
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: solidarity and support and allyship in a different way than say,

559
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 3: you know, someone who might be this and gay identified

560
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 3: in this very particular moment, and so I think that

561
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: one of the things that the film is also trying

562
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: to address and think about is what does it mean

563
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: when we're organizing around a kind of politics of identity,

564
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 3: and what are the potentials and what are the limitations

565
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 3: of those kinds of moves?

566
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: What is the what do you think is the next?

567
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting here in some ways, And that's

568
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: why that quote was so interesting, because in some ways,

569
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: I think if you're you tell me, as a transgendered

570
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: American about whether you feel as if it's is it

571
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,239
Speaker 1: two steps forward, one step back? Is it? Is it

572
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: feel as if progress? In some ways? Being at the

573
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: center of firestorms? Does that? Is that? Do you see

574
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: it as progress? Are you frustrated or both? The answer

575
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: yes to both. Yeah.

576
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 3: I think the answer that progress is not linear by

577
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: any stretch of the imagination, and that we're moving in

578
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: circles and we move backwards and forwards. And as much

579
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: as I would love to say it's two forward and

580
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 3: one back, which always keeps us moving ahead, I don't

581
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 3: necessarily think that's true. But I think that one of

582
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: the things that the apocryphal quote that you're referencing that

583
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 3: Sarah suggests in the beginning of the film says, is

584
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: that we can look to other social movements for guides

585
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: for inspiration. We can look to civil rights, we can

586
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 3: look for too early queer activism as moments of intense

587
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 3: socio political pressure around certain kinds of communities and identity formations,

588
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 3: and we can learn from them in this moment. And

589
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: I think if you look back even at those that

590
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: I've just suggested, coalition and community are the ways forward.

591
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 3: We cannot have single subjects or exemplary folks who are

592
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 3: pulled out of the pack and forced to represent a

593
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: whole community or whole movement. We need to be thinking

594
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: together as a collective.

595
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: As a documentarian, how important is for you to go

596
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: in the to go into history, because I say this

597
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: and I have been you know, I've been involved with

598
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: these film festivals now often on either directly with Meet

599
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: the Press or now and there's been quite a few

600
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: on identity and what's been really some of my favorites

601
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: have been sort of on the history of sort of

602
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: hidden identity where people had to hide, but they were

603
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: going to This great illustrator was a subject of a

604
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: and a terrific documentary. I remember a couple of years ago,

605
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: and I apologized for not remembering the name, but it

606
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: was about an illustrator and he was a fashion illustrator

607
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: and there was a bit of gay erotica that he

608
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: sort of both celebrated in plain sight and people didn't

609
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: realize that's what he was doing. I feel like there's

610
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: a lot more gay history transgender history that we've just

611
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: buried right because society at that time didn't want to

612
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: know that it existed. How much do you focus on

613
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: trying to unearth pieces of that history, because I think

614
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: it goes a long way, frankly, to get today's society

615
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: to not just accept but realize this is not new. Yeah.

616
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and thanks for saying this is not new. I

617
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: feel like the more we can all collectively keep saying

618
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: this is not new and trans people have been around forever,

619
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: the better off we're all going to be. And I

620
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: think to your question, it really is project specific for me,

621
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 3: So some of my past features are really reckoning with

622
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: trans history and the ways in which trans folks have

623
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: been a race stoor invisibilized, sometimes strategically as a way

624
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 3: to survive their contexts. But in this film, I made

625
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 3: a different choice, which was to say, of course, there's

626
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 3: a version of this film that could have started with

627
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 3: Sarah McBride as a young person and charted her understanding

628
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 3: of self as a trans person and that kind of

629
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 3: coming of aage.

630
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: You never got into her actual transition. That was right,

631
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: never it's there, meaning you allow the viewer to say, Okay, okay,

632
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: this happened in college, got it? So you tell them

633
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: when it happened, but you do not show it, And

634
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: you're right, you could have and then right, I appreciate

635
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: this explanation.

636
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a strategic choice to not do so

637
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 3: because I actually think it's not the story we're telling.

638
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 3: And so if you track the coming of age in

639
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: our film, it's about her political coming of age. So

640
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: her parents tell a very beautiful and charming story about

641
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 3: Sarah desiring a podium for them a very young age.

642
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 3: That's to me, Yeah, that to me is actually much

643
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 3: more informative.

644
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: By the way it made me write down a question going,

645
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: so when are you running for president? Because I joke, no,

646
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: I joke that the people that run eventually run for

647
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: president have thought about it since childhood. So that's why

648
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: I like, Oh, okay.

649
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: Right and so and exactly to your point, that, to

650
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 3: me is a much more interesting way to think about

651
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: a coming of age or an emergence than a story

652
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 3: about transition that might be squarely organized around one's understanding

653
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 3: of their gender identity, which in the context of this

654
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: film I don't think is necessary. We understand that Sarah

655
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 3: identifies as a transperson, we are immersed in a contemporary transpolitic,

656
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: and the rest actually can be unknown in a very

657
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 3: important way.

658
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: What critique I was going to say, critique the media

659
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: on this, but instead give advice to traditional media, give

660
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: advice to because I think there's plenty of people who

661
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: who are trying to get this right, but stumble. If

662
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: you get I think, and I think that you know,

663
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: you depend I mean, Sarah McBride seems to go out

664
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 1: of her way to give grace to the stumbles, right,

665
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: and you see it even with people that are trying

666
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: to be allies for her sometimes stumble. That's got to

667
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 1: be a little frustrating though.

668
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that Sarah's making her own

669
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 3: choices around how she wants to be in the world

670
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 3: around those stumbles, and I think we can look to

671
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 3: this and advocates of other kinds who are making other

672
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 3: choices distinct from the sort of grace making gestures that

673
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 3: we see in politics. And I think for me, in

674
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 3: this moment, there are two things that we can draw

675
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 3: on actually from the film. So one is when Donald

676
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 3: Trump says, I talk about taxes and nobody really claps

677
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: or does anything, and I say the word transgender and

678
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 3: everybody explodes, which is interesting to me because five years ago.

679
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: You didn't even know what it meant.

680
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 3: And it's such a striking and inflammatory moment where he

681
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 3: is showing his hand in some ways to say, I

682
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 3: understand that I have created a scapegoat out of this

683
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 3: community with the help of many people, and as a result,

684
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 3: we are going to weaponize this word. We're going to

685
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 3: weaponize this community. The faster that media can catch on

686
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 3: to that and redraw our attention to the fact that

687
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 3: the scapegoating of trans people in this moment is a

688
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 3: diversion and a distraction for all these other kinds of

689
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 3: socio political machinations, the better off we're going to be.

690
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: And I think it's on media to create a much

691
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 3: more nuanced and incisive way in to shine a light

692
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 3: on those things.

693
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: Do you Okay, let me, but do you worry that? So,

694
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: take the issue of trans sports, trans people in women's sports.

695
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: It's like a not a one percent, right, It's like

696
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: less than a one percent issue. Do you worry though?

697
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: When that said that, it can come across almost is

698
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 1: dismissive of the idea that there are trans people wanting

699
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: to compete in sports. Do sure, I'm going here where

700
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: there's this fine line between hey, there's hardly what are

701
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: we talking about here? This is a less than one

702
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: percent issue, But you could end up inadvertently coming across

703
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: dismissive of an entire identity group.

704
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I really understand the tension in your question,

705
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 3: but I do think that the reality of scope and

706
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: scale matters. And so this is the sort of second

707
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: part to my last answer, which is the moment on

708
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 3: c SPAN where Sarah McBride says, anytime a large, powerful force,

709
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: a group of people is targeting a very small, minoritized community,

710
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 3: you have to start asking why. And I think that

711
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 3: the overwhelming attention to trans people in sports and trans

712
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 3: inclusion in sports is yet another example of taking an

713
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: issue that impacts a very small minority of folks and

714
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: creating a political buyerstorm around it. And I don't think

715
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 3: that there's anything wrong with addressing the reality of scale,

716
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 3: which is to say, how many athletes are we talking about?

717
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 3: In what way is this actually harming communities, families, folks

718
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 3: who are trying to do right by the folks that

719
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 3: they love.

720
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: Had you done a very campaign oriented doc before, what

721
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: was your familiarity with Washington or campaigns? I'm just curious. No.

722
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: This is my first verite doc of this kind, and

723
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: a lot of my prior documentary work really sits at

724
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 3: the edges of nonfiction as a genre, so pulls in

725
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: a lot of narrative cinema making styles and techniques. And

726
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 3: I was really thrilled by the opportunity to jump into

727
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: this style because there is so much cinematic potential in

728
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 3: verite documentary storytelling, and the collaboration that I had with

729
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 3: our cinematographer, Melissa Langer was a way in which to think, like,

730
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 3: what can the frame of the camera. What can the

731
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 3: frame of the picture do to help us tell this story.

732
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 3: It's not simply being in the room at the right time,

733
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: it's how can we actually organize the structure of our

734
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: frames such that you, as the viewer, can be interpreting

735
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 3: multiple things simultaneously.

736
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: Look, I think it allows the documentary not to age

737
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: as quickly. Yes, I think they live they live longer

738
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: if you can feel like you can transport yourself in time.

739
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, And to really think about you know, I

740
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 3: think that there's a kind of fantasy that cameras just

741
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: arrive in rooms and tell stories because they're there and

742
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: it's just so far beyond And I know I'm preaching

743
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 3: to the choir here and talking to you, but like,

744
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 3: what role does something like the car play in a

745
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 3: story like this where you recognize that in the context

746
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: of our storytelling, the car becomes a space that's both

747
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,800
Speaker 3: public and private. It's where Sarah is the most open

748
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 3: and most vulnerable to certain kinds of questions. He is

749
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 3: both in private, but she's also in the world, and

750
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 3: those kinds of tensions are something that the camera can

751
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 3: help us to reveal.

752
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: Did you ask all the questions or did others in

753
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 1: your team do it as well?

754
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 3: I definitely was the one in conversation with her throughout,

755
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: with the exception of the journalists who you see on

756
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 3: stream where we're using those questions as well.

757
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was very much me.

758
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: Let me just ask you a question. Take take your

759
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: director's hat off here for a second. What do you

760
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: make of how politics is conducted here? You were, I

761
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: mean that's you were on the ground watching a congression.

762
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: It was essentially a fairly normal congressional race, although not

763
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: in a big TV market because of the weirdness of

764
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: Delaware being sort of, you know, connected to a big

765
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: media market but not but not technically, you know, Wilmington

766
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: is its own small, sort of subgenre of Philadelphia. But

767
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, as a as an American citizen, what

768
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 1: did you make of how campaigning circa twenty twenty four was? Like?

769
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: This is where I have to disclose to you that

770
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: I'm Canadian and also.

771
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: Even better, that's what I mean, give me a you know,

772
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 1: give me a Canadian's eye view of this. I apologize

773
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: that we were stealing hockey from you guys. I grew

774
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: up in Florida. I grew up in Florida, and you know,

775
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: you know why all these Florida teams are so good

776
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: at hockey because all you Canadians moved to Florida. But anyway,

777
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,919
Speaker 1: this is your conversation you used to not anymore? Yeah,

778
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: I know, not of it by anyway. Yeah, okay, even better.

779
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: You're a Canadian, so you're in a weird way, even

780
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: more distant from it. So you know, I always say

781
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: that that I have cynical eyes, so I don't always

782
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 1: I may miss stuff that somebody with fresher eyes may see.

783
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious what you saw.

784
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And in fairness, you know, I moved to

785
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 3: the US for the first time at nineteen, so lots

786
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,399
Speaker 3: of experience here to reflect upon, especially as someone who

787
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 3: transitioned in the States. The thing that I was most

788
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 3: struck by in telling this story is the theatricality of

789
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: the political moment and the ways in which politics dominates

790
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 3: public space. So I'm thinking a lot of the debates,

791
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 3: the billboards, the law, and science. It might sound simple,

792
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 3: but it's actually not, because when we're driving through Delaware,

793
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 3: for example, you are immersed in a kind of political

794
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: culture that is material. You are confronting messaging and signs

795
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 3: in a variety of different ways. And I was thinking

796
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: a lot about a kind of politics of intimidation right

797
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 3: where people show up look certain ways, take up space

798
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 3: in certain ways, and that's something that you feel in

799
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 3: your body when you're on the ground in these environments.

800
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 3: And it's certainly not something that I had paid attention

801
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 3: to in the same way prior to making the film.

802
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 3: I think we are inundated by screen media, well you

803
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 3: know it, but the material world is so different.

804
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: Delaware actually is a unique situation with the sign issue

805
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: because because there's not a dominant TV market, because buying

806
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: television for a Delaware viewer means buying Philadelphia, which is expensive.

807
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: Yard signs are everything, so and everybody has to do

808
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: the art signs, the State Center candidates, the city council candidates,

809
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: they auditor, the dog catcher, you name it. So I

810
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: think Delaware, you know, if my memory serves when I

811
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: you know, you're driving through in election season, it is

812
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 1: an area that you're more likely to see yard signs

813
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: than you would in a place with dominant TV. Let

814
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: me ask you about being in an around our US Congress.

815
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: What'd you make of that? And what were what surprised? What?

816
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: You know you may have had a stereotype going in,

817
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: anything surprised you coming out.

818
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,479
Speaker 3: Again, I think I'm revealing myself as a formalist here

819
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 3: in the ways in which I'm answering. But there was

820
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 3: something quite haunting to me about shooting in the Tunnels

821
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 3: with Sarah McBride that were the same tunnels that Marjorie

822
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 3: Taylor Green and other politicians were leveraging their power against

823
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 3: trans folks, and recognizing that those walls are holding those

824
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 3: same concurrent flows, and again really trying to think from

825
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: a cinematic perspective of how do we bring you the

826
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 3: viewer into that space with us so that you can

827
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 3: feel the power of the claustrophobia, the tension of these spaces.

828
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 3: And again that's something that I'm really grateful to be

829
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: able to do with a camera, which is to say

830
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: where are we and how are we in this together?

831
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: And then there's something really again striking to me about

832
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 3: how new it is for Congressoman McBride. You know, she

833
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 3: will say she's still getting lost in this space, and

834
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 3: so you're in this moment of exploration and curiosity at

835
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: the same time as this violent tide is approaching and

836
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 3: the tension is really captured in the geography and architecture

837
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 3: of that space.

838
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 1: It's it's shocking that people spend upwards of twenty to

839
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: thirty million dollars for cubicle office space, right, like, get up,

840
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: it's so small, Yeah, yeah, so small. I want to

841
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: another thing that she says towards the end of the

842
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: dock that I found it was made me think and

843
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: I was going back. I said, she's the first. She's

844
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: the first, first where a majority of her voters did

845
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: not share her identity, you know, first woman of Congress.

846
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: Obviously you had a half to you know there, first

847
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: African American, first Latino. For the most part, all got

848
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: there because their identity group, you know, got behind them

849
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: in their community. I thought that was a fascinating you know,

850
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: I guess you because even the first out member of

851
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: Congress in the gay community were sort of forced out right,

852
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: they didn't get there. Barney Frank and Jerry Studs were

853
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: outed while they were in Congress. I guess you would say. I.

854
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: I guess Cammy Baldwin would be the first one who

855
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: ran and won as somebody who was who is out,

856
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: and so they would have a majority of their constituents

857
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: not I. But I thought that was a fascinating and

858
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: that's hard to capture and I don't and I think

859
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: that is unique. I couldn't think of I was trying

860
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: to come up with any other corollary, and I couldn't

861
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: come up with one.

862
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: No, And I was really grateful for the opportunity to

863
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 3: include that anecdote toward the end of our film, because

864
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 3: I think it's also revealing of the ways in which

865
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 3: Sarah McBride is a student of politics in a very

866
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 3: profound whether it's the West Wing or being at a

867
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 3: podium as a kid, is really thinking critically about her

868
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: position and thinking historically about her position, and as a result,

869
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 3: I think it causes us to have to turn toward

870
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: the many problems of being a first in any category

871
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 3: of representation, and also the ways in which she's approaching herself.

872
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 3: And I read a lot of a lot of nuance

873
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 3: in that declaration from her and a lot of thinking

874
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 3: out loud about what she's experiencing.

875
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: I don't want to ask you to speak for the

876
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: entire trans community, just like she's obviously doesn't want to

877
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: be forced to always have to be the congresswoman for

878
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: the entire trans community, and yet there's going to be

879
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 1: pressures for her to do that. How does she push

880
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 1: back on that pressure? I think that that's a good

881
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:49,839
Speaker 1: way to do it.

882
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely a question

883
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 2: you should ask her.

884
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 3: I can answer it for myself and answer it for

885
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 3: the in the context of the film, which is to say,

886
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 3: one of the central tensions is about activists versus electoral

887
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 3: strategies of social change, Right, what does it mean to

888
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 3: be advocating for or on behalf of certain groups of people?

889
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 3: And I think we land in the film with an

890
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 3: opportunity to consider multiple strategies of approach, and my hope

891
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 3: is that we walk away recognizing we need all of

892
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: them at once.

893
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: And I don't think, you know.

894
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 3: Speaking on behalf of a community ever works in any context,

895
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: but rather to say that communities are deeply multifaceted and

896
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 3: require a multi pronged approach that is multi isssue at

897
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 3: every turn and could never be distilled down to these

898
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 3: are the needs of trans people because trans people are

899
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: so multiply identified.

900
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: You know, the history of our country when it comes

901
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: to civil rights has always been incrementalism. Right. There's been

902
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: small gains, and there are people that will say, you know,

903
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: that's dehumanizing, right, small gains, and yet in order to

904
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,799
Speaker 1: get all the gains, you know, civil unions today would

905
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 1: be considered a step back, but fifty twenty five years ago,

906
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: that was a step forward that I imagine is the

907
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: toughest part. I think that's the toughest position she's being

908
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: put in, and it's going to be among the harder

909
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 1: things to communicate to the trans community, just like it

910
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: was for African American leaders in the fifties to say, look,

911
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: we're doing desegregation, We're going to get the full voting

912
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: rights at this point, we're going to do you know,

913
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: it is it is. And yet if you're the if

914
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: you're the victim of basically you know, you don't have patience, right,

915
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: It's I just find it's just hard. And I know

916
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: I'm not saying anything you don't know you live it.

917
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, And I think this is where I find

918
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 3: the most inspiration being a filmmaker and being an artist,

919
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 3: because I think documentary is one of the ways in

920
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 3: which we get to renegotiate power and shine spotlights back

921
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 3: out into certain places in culture. And so I think

922
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 3: that my hope for our film is that it's a

923
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 3: way to continue energizing this conversation and to think together

924
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 3: about you know, what does it mean to meaningful approach

925
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 3: social change in this moment, and what is the relationship

926
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: between incrementalism and more radical acts.

927
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: The there's always you know, we're such a contradiction as

928
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 1: a country, right, we're live and let live right where

929
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: we're sort of in some ways that was you know,

930
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 1: we we we came, we revolted due to wanting more freedom,

931
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: but then we we get upset when other people want

932
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: more freedom. But how do you feel long term optimistic?

933
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: Short term pessimistic?

934
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: You know?

935
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 3: I find a lot of power in knowing that trans

936
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: people have always been here and have always survived, and

937
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 3: that has required various approaches to public life. That's required

938
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,720
Speaker 3: being more private, being more opaque, being more visible, being

939
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 3: more audible. And I think that we're in a moment

940
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 3: of deep and necessary recalibration. And I have full faith

941
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 3: that we were we will, we will thrive and survive.

942
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,439
Speaker 1: And I but I guess, do you feel more optimistic? Even?

943
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: I just wonder because in some ways it goes back

944
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: to the apocryphal quote, which is the fact that there's

945
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: so much attention that the rights trying to bring to

946
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: this issue. Is it oddly empowering?

947
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 3: I will say that it is incredibly exciting to be

948
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 3: a part of a world that is full of trans

949
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 3: people who are saying absolutely not, and we will continue

950
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 3: to advocate and fight for our community. And I feel

951
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 3: deeply embedded in and grateful to those communities and momentums.

952
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: Now, let me flip on the Are you worried that

953
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party is going to abandon the trans community?

954
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 3: That is a question for Congresswoman McBride as well. I

955
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 3: think that I am. You know, I am concerned about

956
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 3: the ways in which the trans community has been positioned

957
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 3: as both scapegoat and wedge and the time for that

958
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: to change.

959
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: The look you you lean into the Kamala Harris ad.

960
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: I mean, what I found very impressive with what you

961
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: did with the is that you're like, Okay, we're not

962
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: going to avoid this conversation. We know and it turned

963
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 1: out to be it is the symbol of Kamala Harris

964
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: messed up because of that ad, right, not responding to

965
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: that ad. You lean into it because it appears it's

966
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 1: like you're like, Okay, we're going to get scape coded.

967
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 2: That's it.

968
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 3: You can watch it happening, right, you can watch it unfold.

969
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 3: And I think again, the more we can draw attention

970
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 3: to the way in which it works, the way in

971
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 3: which these rhetorical moves are constructed, the better able we

972
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 3: are going to be to untangle them.

973
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: Well, look, feature length documentaries are not easy at all,

974
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:45,640
Speaker 1: because you've got to it's got to be a story,

975
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: it's got to be a narrative, it's got to be

976
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: feel like a movie. Right. People want to beginning, a middle,

977
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 1: and an end, no matter how important the subject matter is.

978
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: And you know you found that. You found that right

979
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: right mix, And like I said it, I think this

980
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: is going to age extraordinarily.

981
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Check. I really appreciate it, thanks to

982
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 2: this conversation.

983
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: All right, in the second half of the conversation, I

984
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: now have Congresswoman Sarah McBride joining me. Congresswoman, welcome to

985
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: the podcast. As I say, you're following the director h

986
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: Chase Joint. We literally just this is not the magic

987
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: of editing. We literally Chase just left the zoom. Congresswoman

988
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: McBride just joined it. So thank you.

989
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: It's great to join you, Chuck, thanks for having me.

990
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 1: Let me just start a couple of questions on the

991
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: doc Was it a hard decision to to let that

992
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: kind of I mean you you you had to you

993
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: had to let people in to private moments. I'm not

994
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: sure how much I would I lived a life like that,

995
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: and I didn't love it all the time. So was

996
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: it a hard decision to allow to allow this to happen.

997
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 2: It was.

998
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 4: It was definitely a decision that I thought a lot about.

999
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 4: But I came to the conclusion that it was easy

1000
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 4: to tell a simple story through headlines and passive coverage

1001
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 4: of this journey to Congress and stepping into office, but

1002
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,080
Speaker 4: that you don't really learn good lessons from simple stories.

1003
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 2: And I wanted.

1004
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 4: To invite an incredibly thoughtful director in Chase and to

1005
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 4: grapple with the complexities and the challenges of running for office,

1006
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:32,879
Speaker 4: of serving in public office, and doing all of that

1007
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 4: as a part of a community that's never been present before.

1008
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 4: Because I think when you tell that deep of a

1009
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 4: story with all of its complexities and challenges, other people

1010
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,879
Speaker 4: can learn from it, so that hopefully one they can

1011
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 4: do it too, and two they can do it better.

1012
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 1: Whether you like it or not, whether you want it

1013
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: or not, you're a symbol for you know, when you're

1014
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 1: a first, when you're having to break a barrier, you

1015
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: break a ceiling, however you want to describe it. In

1016
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,440
Speaker 1: some ways, you carry the hopes and dreams of every

1017
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: transgender person on your shoulders, which is a huge burden

1018
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,879
Speaker 1: and at the same time it's an unfair burden, right,

1019
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 1: And you sort of address this towards the end. You

1020
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: strike me as somewhat reluctant to be that symbol, yet

1021
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: you're accepting that you have to be.

1022
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 2: I recognize that.

1023
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 4: With opportunity comes responsibility, and when you are a first,

1024
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 4: that comes with extra responsibilities.

1025
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: And so I have the guidance of Spider Man there

1026
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 1: by the way, exactly great power and.

1027
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 4: I and I recognize that when you are a first,

1028
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 4: there is added responsibility, and sometimes it's not always fair.

1029
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 4: I would never I don't feel sorry for myself. I

1030
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 4: know how lucky I am. I feel genuinely lucky.

1031
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: But I also.

1032
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 4: Believe, you know, I don't push back against that extra

1033
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 4: responsibility because I don't want it. I just genuinely believe

1034
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 4: that the only way I can fulfill that responsibility is

1035
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 4: to quite simply be the best member of Congress that

1036
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 4: I can be. You know, I think, I think when

1037
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 4: you are a first, people viscerally feel your highs and

1038
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 4: they viscerally feel your lads, and and they put a

1039
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 4: lot on you.

1040
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 2: And I understand that.

1041
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 4: And I think one of the things I hoped we

1042
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 4: would have, I hope we would have more of in

1043
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 4: our politics is a degree of grace, A degree of

1044
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 4: grace to ourselves, a degree of grace to one another

1045
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 4: in our own coalition and our own communities, and a

1046
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 4: degree of grace to one another across the partisan and

1047
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 4: political divide. And you know, I think when we allow

1048
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 4: ourselves to be seen in our fuller humanity, we invite

1049
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 4: a little bit more grace. And look, I'm not going

1050
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 4: to always get this right. I'm going to make mistakes.

1051
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,399
Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm.

1052
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 2: Doing the best I can.

1053
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 4: And I've tried to look, as I talk about in

1054
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 4: the documentary, I've tried to look for other examples of

1055
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 4: first who were coming in at a time when the

1056
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 4: identity that makes them a first is at the center

1057
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 4: of political debate, and the district that they represent isn't

1058
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 4: significantly or predominantly made up of that identity.

1059
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,439
Speaker 1: I found that to be a fascinating observation that you made.

1060
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: And I was talking actually to Chase about this note

1061
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: literally towards the end, because I did. I was sitting

1062
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: there going boy, I was coming up. I mean, I

1063
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: guess you now maybe a Native American member of Congress,

1064
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, but I can't. I couldn't. It was a

1065
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 1: fascinating observation that you that you made there, and you're

1066
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 1: right it. But it also says a lot about your

1067
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: about where you come from, in your district, they for

1068
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: whatever anybody else is looking at you, if they are

1069
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,760
Speaker 1: only caught up with your identity. If that had been

1070
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: the case in Delaware, I don't think you would have won.

1071
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:54,919
Speaker 2: No, I would not have.

1072
00:57:55,640 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 4: And you know, I think I genuinely feel such deep

1073
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 4: love for Delaware.

1074
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: I have felt it my entire life.

1075
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 4: I think I have seen throughout my life, throughout my

1076
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 4: career as an advocate and now as an elected official,

1077
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 4: that Delaware, particularly as a small state, of state of neighbors,

1078
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 4: is able to see.

1079
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: Past right sort of some ways small state would have

1080
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,919
Speaker 1: been is easier to at least get people to see

1081
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: you as a three dimensional figure. I was our biggest

1082
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: problem in our politics conversations with media. I used to

1083
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: feel this myself. I still feel it. You know, you know,

1084
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: if you're a two dimensional figure to somebody. It's easy

1085
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: to say horrible things the minute people find out, Oh WHOA,

1086
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,959
Speaker 1: they're human just like me. It's amazing what they won't

1087
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: say to your face.

1088
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: Right, It's difficult to hate up close.

1089
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 4: And I think that that being a state of neighbors

1090
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 4: helps to foster politics that sees our elected officials who

1091
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 4: we see at the grocery store and you know, out

1092
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 4: at parades all the time, as real people. But also

1093
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 4: wouldn't have happened if I also wasn't running on a

1094
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 4: platform that represented the diverse needs of Delawareans and on

1095
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 4: a record in the state Senate of working on paid

1096
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 4: family medical even healthcare, and so Delaware was primed to

1097
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 4: see me as a whole person. But I also had

1098
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 4: to put myself forward as a whole person. And I

1099
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 4: think sometimes even on our own side, we try to

1100
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 4: box people into that one thing and reduce them to

1101
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 4: that one thing. And listen, if I wanted to talk

1102
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 4: about trans issues, I could have just stayed as an advocate,

1103
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 4: but I want to work on all issues.

1104
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the difference a couple of I

1105
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: just want to see your experiences. You were a legislature

1106
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,920
Speaker 1: in the state level. You're now about two hundred days

1107
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: in on the federal level. What's what's the biggest differences

1108
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: and what's been more similar than you expected?

1109
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 4: You know, Dover is definitely very different than BC. I

1110
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 4: loved my I'm in the state legislature. I love being

1111
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 4: able to roll up my sleeves and and negotiate a

1112
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 4: bill with a Republican colleague outside.

1113
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: It easier to be bipartisan in Dover than it is

1114
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: in DC.

1115
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: It was for sure.

1116
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 4: One. I think partly just the ethos of Delaware politics

1117
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 4: has historically always been more bipartisan.

1118
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 1: But my Castle and Joe Biden right, like right, very.

1119
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 4: Exactly, And also I think Delaware, you know, at the

1120
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 4: state level, we're outside of a lot of the perverse

1121
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 4: incentives that fill our national politics, in part because of

1122
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 4: the greater attention that's that's that's on our national politics.

1123
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 4: But I mean, I'm still grateful that there are opportunities

1124
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 4: here like there were in Delaware to work in a

1125
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 4: bipartisan fashion. I think the strategy that I had in

1126
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 4: Delaware of finding sort of smaller, more technical issues, sort

1127
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 4: of I'm sexy out of the headline, is choose to

1128
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 4: work with Republicans on to build relationships develop trust with

1129
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 4: them over that then helped me get bipartisan support for

1130
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 4: paid family and medical leve that that strategy is still

1131
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 4: very much a strategy you can pursue here. I've introduced

1132
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 4: five bills, four of which are bipartisan, and so I

1133
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 4: think there's a lot of a lot of replicable I

1134
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 4: think there are replicable strategies that you can employ here.

1135
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 4: I think the biggest difference is one how much this

1136
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 4: place is a cacophony of feedback and performance and noise,

1137
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 4: and how much that reality can bring out some of

1138
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 4: the worst in some people. And how much you see

1139
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 4: the strategy of reality TV employed by some in Congress

1140
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 4: in a way that just didn't exist.

1141
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a member of Congress who's no longer

1142
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: a member of Congress by choice. This is a conservative

1143
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: Republican from Kansas who was very fresh traded, very much

1144
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 1: not a Marjorie Taylor Green type of performer, but Jakeletturner,

1145
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: much more of a you know, sort of a Paul

1146
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: Ryan acolyte, and was said, sort of admitted that one

1147
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: of the reasons people do the performative, it's the only

1148
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 1: way their constituents know they exist, right that this has

1149
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: been Also, it's almost like proof of life. And you know,

1150
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: Delaware is a small state. There's a little more local

1151
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: interest in what everybody's doing. You come from some of

1152
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: these bigger metropolitan areas and they have a hard time

1153
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: standing out, and I hate that. That's probably the initial

1154
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 1: reason why some of these folks started to become cable

1155
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: TV clowns.

1156
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, look, attention is a tool to be

1157
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 4: an effective legislator, to push for change, to increase your

1158
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 4: power to influence things. And I think everyone here has

1159
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 4: to figure out how to be heard. But to your point,

1160
01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 4: I think there are some folks for whom the you know,

1161
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 4: rush that comes with attention ends up making that attention

1162
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 4: the end rather than the means.

1163
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: We ask you a couple of Delaware centric questions. One

1164
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: is just sort of demographic because I now I now

1165
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 1: fully appreciate that you're you've been a political junkie, uh

1166
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: since birth, now that I've heard the stories about the

1167
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: podium and all of that business. Uh when for the

1168
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 1: longest time, Delaware Missouri were the two states that always

1169
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: voted with the winner for most of my uh, most

1170
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: of my lifetime until I think it was. I guess

1171
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 1: if we we measured it by popular vote, it was

1172
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 1: four Yes. What's your what's your explanation of why Delaware

1173
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: is no longer at the fulcrum? Is it more of

1174
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: a of a function of the right or a function

1175
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 1: of the left.

1176
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 2: I think it is mostly a function of the right.

1177
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 1: You know, our Castle Republicans don't East.

1178
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 4: I think they are all Democrats now pretty much. And

1179
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 4: I think that quite candidly. I think the Republican Party

1180
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 4: in Delaware lost its center, lost the center, and I

1181
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 4: think the Democratic Party in Delaware maintained proximity to has

1182
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 4: maintained proximity to public opinion in a way that has

1183
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 4: allowed us to dominate elections, which is not always true

1184
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 4: in the national conversation, It's not always true in every

1185
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 4: state party. I think that the Democratic Party has has

1186
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 4: done a good job of building a broad tent that

1187
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 4: has allowed us to maintain a solid majority in Delaware.

1188
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 4: Now that obviously, I think there are some pretty significant

1189
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 4: demographic shifts that are happening in Delaware right now. The

1190
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 4: influx of retirees. That'll be interesting.

1191
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: What's been the beginning of that? Just people moving out

1192
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:02,439
Speaker 1: of Philadelphia and New Jersey for cheaper, yes, ocean cheap

1193
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 1: lower taxes.

1194
01:05:03,360 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 4: That yeah, the relatively low tax burden has created a

1195
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 4: really welcoming environment for retirees on fixed incomes to move

1196
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 4: to Delaware from both Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, and

1197
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 4: from the Maryland and Virginia area. I think one of

1198
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 4: the things we saw in the last selection, though, is

1199
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 4: while Democrats saw a slight decrease in our traditionally bluer

1200
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 4: areas that was around around Bloomington, not dissimilar from the

1201
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 4: drop we've seen in democratic support and heavy democratic areas

1202
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 4: and other places, we actually saw an increase in Democratic

1203
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 4: support in our historically republican area because of the number

1204
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 4: of retirees from Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, and New York

1205
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 4: who have moved in and are skewing more Democratics. So

1206
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 4: it's an interesting dynamic that we're seeing right now.

1207
01:05:58,800 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 2: Sort of the.

1208
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 4: College educated retirees that are moving to Delaware are compensating

1209
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 4: for that loss and some historically democratic strongholds.

1210
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: Interesting. What Delaware's other identity is sort of is the

1211
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 1: home of every corporation, right they get this, you know whatever,

1212
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,439
Speaker 1: it protect a lot of extra legal protection some things

1213
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 1: that many people don't like, including many people in the

1214
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 1: Democratic Party, I think, have a harder and harder time

1215
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: defending some of some of that. Where are you on that?

1216
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: And do you think do you think it's been a

1217
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 1: net positive or a net negative for Delaware being sort

1218
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,919
Speaker 1: of the home of Corporate America, the headquarters for Corporate America.

1219
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 4: Well, you know, as you mentioned, the Delaware's franchise is

1220
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,439
Speaker 4: a significant source of funding for our state. Delaware's legal

1221
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 4: economy is a significant source of economic activity as well

1222
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 4: as revenue for Delaware. Roughly thirty to forty percent of

1223
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 4: our state revenue comes from either the franchise itself or

1224
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:02,360
Speaker 4: revenue that's coming in from economic activity around uh, the

1225
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 4: incorporation and legal disputes being handled by what's caught our

1226
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 4: chancery court. That means that we get to fund services

1227
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 4: for vulnerable Delawareans through revenue coming in from corporations. And

1228
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 4: that's a fairly progressive way to fund services for the vulnerable.

1229
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 1: You know, you are taking away tax dollars from the

1230
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 1: places those companies are actually headquartered in, right, that could

1231
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: be the other.

1232
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 4: Well, they still have to they still have to pay

1233
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 4: you know, taxes where they have a physical footprint, but

1234
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 4: I think they.

1235
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:37,400
Speaker 1: Get to avoid some of it by by by by

1236
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: incorporating in Delaware.

1237
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 4: The miss Well, I think the reason why these companies

1238
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 4: are incorporating in Delaware is because we have one an efficient,

1239
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 4: uh Department of State around in corporation, very responsive that's

1240
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 4: really honed its its capacity to be seamless and efficient

1241
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 4: in processing all of the sort of bureaucratic and and

1242
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,919
Speaker 4: justical paperwork and necessities that come within corporation. But then two,

1243
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 4: most specifically and most significantly, we have a significant amount

1244
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 4: of case law that is a byproduct of our Chancery Court.

1245
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 4: It's a specialized equity court that's focused on business disputes,

1246
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,759
Speaker 4: and that means that it has a wide and deep

1247
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 4: bench of both talent in the bar and on the bench,

1248
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 4: but also a deep bench of case law that provides

1249
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 4: predictability and stability for corporation so that they understand what

1250
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 4: the guardrails are. And I think there's a lot of

1251
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 4: confusion about what is actually resulting in these particularly major

1252
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 4: corporations coming to Delaware to incorporate, and it's really that

1253
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 4: we are providing a degree of stability and predictability for

1254
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:45,760
Speaker 4: this business is in our well respected chancery court.

1255
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 1: Are you nervous about what Texas is up to trying

1256
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,800
Speaker 1: to basically take a piece of this piece of this

1257
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: pie from Delaware.

1258
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 4: I mean, look, there's a competition right now. Texas Nevada

1259
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:05,680
Speaker 4: are trying to encroach in this space. But our incorporations

1260
01:09:05,720 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 4: continue to rise in Delaware. We're not actually seeing, when

1261
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 4: you look at the data, a drop in the growth

1262
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 4: of incorporation in Delaware. And look, I think you know,

1263
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:22,680
Speaker 4: Delaware has this stable and predictable environment for businesses to

1264
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 4: operate that seeks to balance all of the different interests

1265
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 4: and needs and protections that workers, consumers, and shareholders require.

1266
01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 4: I don't want to see a race to the bottom,

1267
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 4: and and I obviously want to make sure that Delaware

1268
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:42,640
Speaker 4: maintains its pre eminence in this space. I think that

1269
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 4: the one thing that Texas and Nevada can't replicate. They

1270
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 4: can try to pass, you know, a corporate governance structure

1271
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:53,599
Speaker 4: that's similar to ours, But what they can't replicate is

1272
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 4: the depth and detail of our case law, the experience

1273
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 4: that our judges and our attorneys have of Certainly they

1274
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 4: can't do it overnight. And I think it's one of

1275
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 4: the reasons why we still continue to see incorporations rise

1276
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:06,800
Speaker 4: in Delaware.

1277
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 1: You're awfully close with the Bidens for a variety of reasons.

1278
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 1: And I and look, it was you know, I think

1279
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: he's been a patron of your political career, no doubt.

1280
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 1: And then some what do you make of the as

1281
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 1: somebody who's a member of an identity group that's getting scapegoaded?

1282
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 1: What do you make of the scapegoating on Biden? And

1283
01:10:27,439 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 1: do you think some of the criticism is fair?

1284
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 2: Look, I said when.

1285
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 4: I said when the President decided to exit the race,

1286
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 4: that he was making a patriotic, patriotic and selfless decision.

1287
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 1: You thought it was in the best interest of the

1288
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: party in the country for him not to seek re election.

1289
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 4: I thought he made the right decision to hand the

1290
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:55,679
Speaker 4: baton to a new generation.

1291
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 1: Do you think the outcome would have been different if

1292
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: he hadn't, I don't No, I don't know.

1293
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 4: I mean, I do think that Kamala Harris ran a

1294
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:08,040
Speaker 4: great campaign, and I think there was a burst of

1295
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 4: momentum that probably did enhance the outcome.

1296
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 2: I don't know if the outcome would.

1297
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 4: Have changed if that decision had been made and that

1298
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:18,760
Speaker 4: change had occurred earlier or not.

1299
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 2: I can't speak to that.

1300
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 4: What I do know is that Joe Biden made a

1301
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 4: really difficult decision and he put the country first. He

1302
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:34,040
Speaker 4: put the party first, and he put the country first

1303
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 4: in stepping aside and handing the baton to Vice President

1304
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:38,320
Speaker 4: Harris for that election.

1305
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: And it doesn't seem like he did it very seems

1306
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 1: like he was pretty reluctant.

1307
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 4: Well, look, I think often self sacrifice is a reluctant step.

1308
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 2: It's not a decision that you come to easily.

1309
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,200
Speaker 4: And you know, I think for me, I will say,

1310
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 4: I think we we have a lot on our plate

1311
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 4: right now, and I get why people are are having

1312
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 4: these conversations. I think these are these are fair. I

1313
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 4: will say for me right now, though, you my friend

1314
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 4: just got diagnosed with cancer, and you know, I am

1315
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 4: really consumed with just wishing him well.

1316
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:21,240
Speaker 1: How often do you talk with him?

1317
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:26,599
Speaker 4: I've seen him about once a month over the last

1318
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 4: couple of months. I saw him once in December, once

1319
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 4: in January, once in February.

1320
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 1: And on the Amtrak of course, right yes, of course, on.

1321
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 4: The entry I actually calm at the Memorial Day ceremony

1322
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 4: and gave him a big hug, and obviously it was

1323
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 4: the first time I saw him since his cancer diagnosis

1324
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,680
Speaker 4: and just told him how much I love him.

1325
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:49,679
Speaker 1: Your leader in the House came Jefferies. Is certainly hasn't

1326
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 1: been hasn't been able to avoid some arrows and some

1327
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 1: frustrations of Democrats either saying he should be pushing back

1328
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:59,800
Speaker 1: harder or punching back harder, or is there a plan.

1329
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: Schumer's been hearing it in the Senate as well. Right,

1330
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 1: this is not a not a happy group of Democrats.

1331
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,320
Speaker 1: What you are there things you wish your leaders were

1332
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 1: doing differently with Trump? Or do you think this is

1333
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 1: the hand they were dealt.

1334
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 4: Look, I think I think folks are scared right now,

1335
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 4: and understandably people want to find, you know, a magic

1336
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 4: wand or an easy button, or think that that one

1337
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,799
Speaker 4: strategy or one approach can solve everything. I think Hakeem

1338
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:32,320
Speaker 4: Jeffries is doing a fantastic job as the leader of

1339
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 4: the Democratic Caucus in a very difficult circumstance. And I

1340
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 4: think he is absolutely right that we need to keep

1341
01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 4: the main thing the main thing. That's something we talk

1342
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 4: about as a Caucus quite frequently, something he talks to

1343
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:49,520
Speaker 4: us about. And that means in this moment, really focusing

1344
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,600
Speaker 4: in shining a light and fighting back on this heartless,

1345
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:57,639
Speaker 4: big ugly bill that the Republicans are trying to ram

1346
01:13:57,680 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 4: through that would result in the largest evisceration of health

1347
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 4: in American history. And that is a strategy. That is

1348
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 4: the strategy because at the end of the day, if

1349
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 4: we are going to build a majoritarian coalition that not

1350
01:14:11,080 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 4: only wins the next election but creates a sustainable opposition

1351
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 4: to Trump and trump Ism, we have to convince people

1352
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 4: who voted for this president in the last election that

1353
01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:27,280
Speaker 4: he's doing a bad job. And that's not necessarily viscerally

1354
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:31,120
Speaker 4: comforting to ourselves, but meeting leaders where they are focusing

1355
01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:33,639
Speaker 4: on the things that they care about, even if it's

1356
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:39,760
Speaker 4: not what is populating X or blue sky.

1357
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:41,280
Speaker 2: That's politics.

1358
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 4: That's the hard work of democracy and change making. And

1359
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 4: I think we have to stop fighting fights that feel

1360
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 4: viscerally comforting to us in ways that feel viscerally comforting

1361
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 4: to us that don't actually move the ball forward and

1362
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 4: building our coalition.

1363
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,960
Speaker 1: You sound like Rocana, who I think I just was reading,

1364
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:58,559
Speaker 1: was saying, Hey, Democrats how to reach out to Elon

1365
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:01,759
Speaker 1: Musk right now while others want to like throw him away.

1366
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 1: What would you say to that? I would assume Elon

1367
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: Musk is a complicated figure. For Look, there's you know,

1368
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 1: and I understand if that that's a bridge Elon Musk

1369
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 1: might be a bridge too far for you and I

1370
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:18,639
Speaker 1: And I would understand that given his.

1371
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,680
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, I I I don't know what I

1372
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:24,960
Speaker 4: think on that conversation, to be quite honest, but what

1373
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 4: I do firmly believe is that we have to be

1374
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 4: a bigger tent as a party.

1375
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 2: We have to we have to welcome in diversity.

1376
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,559
Speaker 1: Well under all, right, under that, guys, Under that, guys,

1377
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,840
Speaker 1: because one of the you saw Gavin Newsom do it,

1378
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 1: You've seen Seth Moulton do it. Who are you going

1379
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:43,759
Speaker 1: to consider somebody an ally if they're for trans rights

1380
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 1: but don't want to see trans women competing in women's sports?

1381
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 1: Is that person an ally to you or not? Well?

1382
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 2: I think two things I would say.

1383
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:58,799
Speaker 4: First, I think there's a different question about whether someone

1384
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,920
Speaker 4: says that there is nuance in this conversation, that there

1385
01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:06,160
Speaker 4: are legitimate questions and someone who's trying to ban all

1386
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 4: trans people from extracurricular programs, regardless of age, regardless of sport.

1387
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 1: The competition conversation specific when it comes to should this

1388
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 1: be in this specific you're willing to have that conversation,

1389
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 1: not the not the all trans people are out.

1390
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:25,360
Speaker 4: I think it is an entirely reasonable position for someone

1391
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:29,120
Speaker 4: to say that there are very understandable concerns about how

1392
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:32,959
Speaker 4: to balance fairness and respect in sports, and the entities

1393
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 4: that are best able to grapple with those questions are

1394
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:40,640
Speaker 4: individual athletic associations that best understand their sport and the

1395
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 4: science and the data. I think that's an entirely reasonable position,

1396
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:49,559
Speaker 4: and that is that is I think a position that

1397
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:54,200
Speaker 4: even for folks who are more conservative on this question,

1398
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 4: voters who are more conservative on this question, they can

1399
01:16:56,720 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 4: understand that we've got serious problems as a country, and

1400
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 4: even if you have a concern about that issue, that

1401
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:07,640
Speaker 4: is it really the right place for that issue to

1402
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 4: not only be handled in, but for time and energy

1403
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 4: to be spent on. Is the US House of Representative

1404
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 4: is really the right space for that to happen. And

1405
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:18,760
Speaker 4: I think most voters can get behind that perspective on

1406
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:22,720
Speaker 4: this issue. But what I will say is beyond sort

1407
01:17:22,720 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 4: of the specifics of that. I do think we have

1408
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 4: to move past to purity politics. I do think we

1409
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:31,320
Speaker 4: have to move past a place where the only way

1410
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,200
Speaker 4: to be considered an ally is to be perfect on

1411
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 4: every issue.

1412
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 2: The reality is is that if you.

1413
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 4: Want to defend trans rights in non discrimination protections written

1414
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 4: large from a clear effort by right wing politicians to

1415
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,240
Speaker 4: legalize discrimination in all of its forms, if you want

1416
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 4: to build a coalition that's fifty one percent or frankly

1417
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 4: more necessarily sixty or seventy percent by definition, you will

1418
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 4: have to include people who are in the seventy percent

1419
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 4: who oppose trans people participating in sports consistent with their

1420
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:02,759
Speaker 4: gender identity.

1421
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:06,599
Speaker 2: That is the reality of the math. And I'm here

1422
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 2: to welcome in perfect allies. I'm here to say you

1423
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 2: want to side with dignity and fairness. You want to

1424
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,880
Speaker 2: decide with being kind. You might have disagreements on particular

1425
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 2: aspects of how that looks and what are the right

1426
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 2: specific policies, but generally speaking, you want to do right

1427
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 2: by your neighbors who are across the diversity of gender

1428
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:30,599
Speaker 2: in our society. Welcome to our coalition, Welcome to our party.

1429
01:18:31,160 --> 01:18:35,519
Speaker 2: I am not going to shed imperfect allies because that'll

1430
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:39,840
Speaker 2: get us a great morally pure, miserable club at the

1431
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:41,240
Speaker 2: Gulag we've all been sent off to.

1432
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:44,800
Speaker 1: Are you worried about backlashing in your own community, in

1433
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: the trans community that says you're not fighting hard enough.

1434
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:52,639
Speaker 1: Don't compromise our rights, don't compromise our values.

1435
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I.

1436
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 1: Know I'm putting you in the perverb box here. You know,

1437
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 1: look a lot of people, you know I heard it.

1438
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:06,639
Speaker 1: You know you accepted the Speaker of the house's decision

1439
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,559
Speaker 1: on the bathroom. Yeah, you didn't fight it, And I

1440
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 1: thought your explanation in the movie was was frankly a

1441
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,560
Speaker 1: correct fear, which is, if you fought it, if you're protested,

1442
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:18,880
Speaker 1: they might have expelled you. Yeah.

1443
01:19:21,320 --> 01:19:26,000
Speaker 2: Someone could have committed violence against me. Yeah, I mean, I'm.

1444
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:29,800
Speaker 4: A notable person. There could have been a bouncy on

1445
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 4: my head. I'm not compromising on my own existence. I'm

1446
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 4: not compromising on the principle of equal rights. But people

1447
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 4: also have to recognize that there's a principle of harm

1448
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:48,839
Speaker 4: reduction and that liberal democracy.

1449
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:54,320
Speaker 2: Sadly requires compromise. Absolutism.

1450
01:19:54,479 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 1: We went and have gotten same sect marriage if we

1451
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 1: didn't have civil unions first.

1452
01:19:57,360 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 4: That's correct, that's correct, and and I think the sort

1453
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:06,000
Speaker 4: of you can't compromise on human rights, that is a

1454
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 4: great principle to fight for or ideal to fight for it.

1455
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:10,479
Speaker 2: It's a whole.

1456
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 1: Life has been a I've watched incremental progress on civil rights.

1457
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 1: Tell me compromise right.

1458
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:21,640
Speaker 4: Tell me which civil rights act delivered full equality for

1459
01:20:21,720 --> 01:20:24,479
Speaker 4: people of color and had absolutely no compromise. The Civil

1460
01:20:24,560 --> 01:20:26,680
Speaker 4: Rights Act of nineteen fifty seven, the Civil Rights Act

1461
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 4: of nineteen sixties, Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four,

1462
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 4: the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five, the Civil

1463
01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 4: Rights Act of nineteen sixty eight, or any of the

1464
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 4: civil rights acts that have passed in the seventies, eighties,

1465
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 4: and nineties. Every single social movement has been disciplined, strategic, effective,

1466
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:45,040
Speaker 4: picked their battles, and yes, made compromises. That doesn't mean

1467
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 4: that that's our starting point. It doesn't mean that that's

1468
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:49,800
Speaker 4: what we fight for in the long run. But at

1469
01:20:49,840 --> 01:20:54,880
Speaker 4: the end of the day, progress is essential to progressivism.

1470
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:57,800
Speaker 4: We have to move the ball forward, and we are

1471
01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 4: not in this moment. We are not in this moment

1472
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 4: because of trans folks or our community. But we are

1473
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 4: also not in this moment because we weren't canceling people enough,

1474
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:09,200
Speaker 4: correcting people enough, shaming people enough, or not fighting for

1475
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:09,719
Speaker 4: the ideal.

1476
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:15,520
Speaker 1: Your level of concern that trans people will be scapegoaded

1477
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,880
Speaker 1: by the Democratic Party over the next two years out

1478
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:22,840
Speaker 1: of desperation to win the to win elections. I asked

1479
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:27,519
Speaker 1: Chase this question, and I got the sense that he's

1480
01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:29,920
Speaker 1: a little nervous about it, but he said, oh, ask her.

1481
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm confident that our party is committed to equal rights.

1482
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 4: I am confident our party is going to continue to

1483
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 4: engage in an approach to politics and change making that

1484
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 4: maximizes positive outcomes and minimizes risk for the vulnerable people

1485
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 4: that we are fighting for. I just heard Leader Jeffreys

1486
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:59,719
Speaker 4: and Leader Schumer last night very proudly and very clearly

1487
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:04,720
Speaker 4: defend LGBTQ people and say that we are committed to

1488
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 4: trans rights. I'm not worried about people throwing trans people

1489
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:12,040
Speaker 4: under the bus within the Democratic Party. I also think

1490
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 4: that we have to separate words and rhetoric from specific

1491
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:27,480
Speaker 4: votes and recognize that if we can't even accept diversity

1492
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:31,639
Speaker 4: of thought in the messaging that we use. Then we've

1493
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:36,680
Speaker 4: lost the plot. We have become so consumed with language

1494
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,800
Speaker 4: that we have forgotten that the people who we are

1495
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,640
Speaker 4: fighting for not the folks on social media. Frankly, not

1496
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:48,440
Speaker 4: the folks who are living in pretty darn good environments

1497
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,720
Speaker 4: in deep blue areas where they're surrounded by people.

1498
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 2: That are like them.

1499
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 4: But that LGBTQ person in deep red Iowa, or the

1500
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:02,560
Speaker 4: trans young person in a rural community. They need tangible progress.

1501
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:07,880
Speaker 4: They don't need us prioritizing battles over what is the

1502
01:23:07,960 --> 01:23:10,080
Speaker 4: right language and message that we use and how we

1503
01:23:10,080 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 4: reach people.

1504
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:11,680
Speaker 2: They have to do it every single day.

1505
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:13,559
Speaker 4: They have to interact with people and engage with people,

1506
01:23:13,600 --> 01:23:15,960
Speaker 4: and meet people every single day who aren't yet on

1507
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:19,719
Speaker 4: our side. I think they need a degree of radical

1508
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,839
Speaker 4: and urgent pragmatism in how we move the ball forward

1509
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:25,840
Speaker 4: and how we stave off these fights. We've got to

1510
01:23:25,840 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 4: recognize the reality of political power in this moment, and

1511
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 4: we've got to recognize the reality of public opinion in

1512
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 4: this moment. Otherwise we will only see a further regression

1513
01:23:37,320 --> 01:23:40,599
Speaker 4: in both public opinion and in public policy on these issues.

1514
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 1: I think I know the answer to this, But if

1515
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 1: Donald Trump invited you for a Novle office meeting. I

1516
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:45,759
Speaker 1: assume you wouldn't hesitate.

1517
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:50,320
Speaker 2: I don't anticipate that happening.

1518
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 1: I don't either, but I'm not don't say it never

1519
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:53,599
Speaker 1: with him.

1520
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:55,839
Speaker 2: Listen.

1521
01:23:55,960 --> 01:24:04,320
Speaker 4: I have a strict rule, just as a principle, that

1522
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:09,679
Speaker 4: I never ever refused to engage with someone, no matter

1523
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:12,800
Speaker 4: how much I disagree with them. And I think we

1524
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:16,320
Speaker 4: have to get past this notion that strategy that talking

1525
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:20,559
Speaker 4: with people, that that that working with people is a

1526
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,640
Speaker 4: form of selling out or compromise. I think we have

1527
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:28,400
Speaker 4: to recognize that one of the problems in our politics

1528
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:30,759
Speaker 4: is that we have no grace and we are unwilling

1529
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:31,799
Speaker 4: to talk with one another.

1530
01:24:33,120 --> 01:24:36,640
Speaker 1: What is success for you in a congressional career? And

1531
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 1: is Congress your last stop? Six? I just got here,

1532
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but you have an idea of

1533
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 1: what you know When your career is over, what do

1534
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:51,639
Speaker 1: you hope is is something that you got done?

1535
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:53,679
Speaker 2: I think I think two things.

1536
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:56,559
Speaker 4: One, I want to be part of the Congress that

1537
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 4: modernizes our care infrastructure. We have a nineteen fifties Karen

1538
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:04,439
Speaker 4: infrastructure for a twenty twenty five workforce. I ran for

1539
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:06,720
Speaker 4: office because of my experience as I talk about in

1540
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:09,600
Speaker 4: the documentary as a caregiver, and I believe that in

1541
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:13,000
Speaker 4: the wealthiest, most developed nation on Earth, that the ability

1542
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 4: to get care and the time to get care should

1543
01:25:16,200 --> 01:25:18,200
Speaker 4: not be a matter of luck. And so I want

1544
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:21,040
Speaker 4: to be part of a Congress that passes paid family

1545
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 4: and medical leave for every worker in this country, that

1546
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 4: provides affordable childcare for every family in this country. I

1547
01:25:28,200 --> 01:25:30,439
Speaker 4: want to be part of a Congress that modernizes that

1548
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 4: care infrastructure too. I hope that sooner rather than later.

1549
01:25:36,520 --> 01:25:39,080
Speaker 4: While I may be a first, I'm very clearly not

1550
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:42,320
Speaker 4: the last. And I think that that only happens if

1551
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:46,200
Speaker 4: I show people in districts across this country, including my

1552
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:49,920
Speaker 4: own constituents, that when people like me are elected, we

1553
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 4: can do the whole job, and we can do it effectively.

1554
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,280
Speaker 1: Well. Look, I'm not going to put ambition in your head,

1555
01:25:57,400 --> 01:26:02,080
Speaker 1: but you know, when you're practicing presidentials beaches as a child,

1556
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 1: you know, I will tell you this. I've never met

1557
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:09,760
Speaker 1: somebody who ran for president who said they hadn't thought

1558
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:12,439
Speaker 1: about it for years. You ever dreamed about it as

1559
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 1: a kid, I mean yes, But Amy Clobishard admitted to

1560
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:19,800
Speaker 1: me she first thought about it in high school, and

1561
01:26:19,840 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 1: I always thought, good for you for at least admitting it,

1562
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:23,760
Speaker 1: because most of these people don't admit that.

1563
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 2: But I also wouldn't be the first young person to

1564
01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:29,280
Speaker 2: change my dream. You know, when I was five and.

1565
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 4: I just I was just with my niece Juliet, and

1566
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:35,400
Speaker 4: I said, what do you want to be when you

1567
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:36,880
Speaker 4: were up? She's nine years old, she says she wants

1568
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 4: to be the president of the United States. I was

1569
01:26:39,280 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 4: thrilled to hear that. I'm very confident that if a

1570
01:26:43,920 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 4: McBride becomes president, she will be the first McBride to

1571
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:48,560
Speaker 4: become president. I like naps too much to want to

1572
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:49,280
Speaker 4: become president.

1573
01:26:50,920 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: I could make a nap joke and president, but I'm

1574
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 1: not going to. I'm not going to. We're going over

1575
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:58,360
Speaker 1: the time, Sarah McBride, it was. It's good to get

1576
01:26:58,360 --> 01:26:59,360
Speaker 1: to know. I appreciate you coming out.

1577
01:26:59,520 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Jock free to meet you.

1578
01:27:01,080 --> 01:27:10,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope you enjoyed that interview. Look, I

1579
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:12,760
Speaker 1: think at the end of the day, I wanted to understand,

1580
01:27:13,120 --> 01:27:17,000
Speaker 1: you know, other issues that Sarah McBride is dealing with

1581
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:19,759
Speaker 1: as a member of Congress, rather than just one issue.

1582
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:22,840
Speaker 1: When you're when you represent, when you're the first for

1583
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:25,800
Speaker 1: any identity group, there is always this expectation that that's

1584
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 1: the only thing you work on when you're an elective office,

1585
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 1: and it can sometimes be both the reason you won

1586
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 1: and the reason you struggle to able to do anything

1587
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:37,600
Speaker 1: outside of that issue. But I thought our answer on

1588
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:45,759
Speaker 1: transportation trans women's participation in sports was fascinating and certainly

1589
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:51,479
Speaker 1: one one that I expect other Democrats to engage with

1590
01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:55,240
Speaker 1: her on. Uh And it'll be interesting to see how

1591
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:57,840
Speaker 1: that how that plays out. All right, before we go,

1592
01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:01,160
Speaker 1: let me take a few questions. I always enjoy a

1593
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:03,720
Speaker 1: good mail bag and the podcast that I listened to,

1594
01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:07,400
Speaker 1: So yes, I'm trying to make this a daily habit here.

1595
01:28:07,439 --> 01:28:13,320
Speaker 1: All right, here we go, as Chuck, this comes from

1596
01:28:13,400 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: drew A parts on parts not disclosed. I won't call

1597
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:20,120
Speaker 1: it parts unknown, just parts not disclosed. And he asked

1598
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 1: if passing the Big Beautiful Bill requires eliminating the filibuster, say,

1599
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 1: if enough Republican senators hold out, would it makes strategic

1600
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 1: sense for Democrats to join Republicans and voting to eliminate

1601
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 1: the philibuster altogether? I know both moves require only a

1602
01:28:31,439 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 1: simple majority. So maybe it's a moot point, but I'm

1603
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:36,800
Speaker 1: curious why wouldn't Democrats go along with it. It might

1604
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 1: be a short term loss, but could set up a

1605
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,360
Speaker 1: big win when they inevitably retake the Senate. Well, it

1606
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 1: all depends on what you want the Senate to be, right,

1607
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 1: I think it is. I see where you're going with

1608
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:50,639
Speaker 1: the Senate, and I understand that. You know, the founder

1609
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:57,160
Speaker 1: intent of the Senate was the cooling saucer. The founder's

1610
01:28:57,160 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 1: intent of the House was the one that was supposed

1611
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:02,160
Speaker 1: to you know, frankly passed more bills than the Senate

1612
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 1: would ever pass, you know, throw more stuff at the wall,

1613
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:08,240
Speaker 1: and the Senate would decide what's worth letting stick. You know,

1614
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 1: what's worth letting stick and what's worth letting fall to

1615
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: the crowd. So, but if you the downside of getting

1616
01:29:17,200 --> 01:29:19,800
Speaker 1: rid of the filibuster, and in fairness, you know, it

1617
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:21,800
Speaker 1: was never it was a you know it was it's

1618
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 1: this is a Senate created rule. There's no constitutional amendment here.

1619
01:29:25,400 --> 01:29:28,080
Speaker 1: Senate can make any rule at once, right, they can

1620
01:29:28,120 --> 01:29:33,800
Speaker 1: decide on their own rules. But there's always been this

1621
01:29:33,960 --> 01:29:37,240
Speaker 1: minority power. Right, and of course it was glamorized first

1622
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 1: glamorized by mister Smith in many ways. Right the mister

1623
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:42,040
Speaker 1: Smith goes to Washington, And I think there is this,

1624
01:29:43,240 --> 01:29:45,519
Speaker 1: you know, there's some aspects of the mythology that I'd

1625
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:47,920
Speaker 1: like to keep. So I'm not in favor of it,

1626
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:52,120
Speaker 1: because I do think we should have the ability to

1627
01:29:53,080 --> 01:29:56,400
Speaker 1: have one person. Now, how do you reform it, make

1628
01:29:56,400 --> 01:29:58,240
Speaker 1: it so they have to talk the whole time? All

1629
01:29:58,240 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: of those things. I think you can come up with

1630
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:03,919
Speaker 1: some reform that would allow for the filibuster to engage

1631
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:08,160
Speaker 1: the American public. What I think nobody intended the filibuster

1632
01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:10,439
Speaker 1: to be used just sort of as a procedural way

1633
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 1: to delay a vote on a bill, or to avoid

1634
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:16,559
Speaker 1: a vote on a bill. I think the original intent

1635
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 1: of the filibuster was to bring attention if there was

1636
01:30:19,760 --> 01:30:22,439
Speaker 1: if there was a feeling as if the majority were

1637
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:26,200
Speaker 1: overrunning the minority in a way that some of the

1638
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:31,720
Speaker 1: majority might regret. And you know, I'm not sure if

1639
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:33,360
Speaker 1: you get rid of the filibuster, you're going to turn

1640
01:30:33,360 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 1: the US Senate into the US House. How healthy is that?

1641
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:40,040
Speaker 1: And at that point then we might as well go

1642
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 1: to a full fledged parliamentary system. And why do we

1643
01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:44,720
Speaker 1: have a power at all in the executive and just

1644
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 1: make the It certainly would enhance I mean, the one

1645
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:52,880
Speaker 1: upside is it might improve the power of the legislative branch.

1646
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:54,920
Speaker 1: But to me, they could get that power back without

1647
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,840
Speaker 1: getting rid of the philbuster. So I you know, I

1648
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:03,000
Speaker 1: just I think the here's the thing where three hundred

1649
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:05,320
Speaker 1: and fifty million people. I don't think we should be

1650
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 1: moving legislation fast. I think we should be finding ways

1651
01:31:08,040 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 1: to move legislation slowly. It should be hard, not easy,

1652
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:13,840
Speaker 1: to change the laws that impact three hundred and fifty

1653
01:31:13,840 --> 01:31:18,040
Speaker 1: million people. And ultimately, that's where I come down on

1654
01:31:18,040 --> 01:31:20,559
Speaker 1: this issue. But you may be right. There may be

1655
01:31:20,560 --> 01:31:22,559
Speaker 1: some Democrats that would like to get rid of the filibuster.

1656
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:24,960
Speaker 1: They may do just that. I'm just telling you where

1657
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:27,360
Speaker 1: I sit on this issue for what it's worth, all right,

1658
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:31,560
Speaker 1: Next question Brandon from Seattle. I've heard your commentary in

1659
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 1: the past suggesting that term limits for Congress would increase

1660
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:36,080
Speaker 1: the influence of lobbyists in our politics. I'm curious to

1661
01:31:36,080 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 1: know if you think instituting age limits would have a

1662
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:41,160
Speaker 1: similar impact. Could we find enough support from all parties

1663
01:31:41,160 --> 01:31:43,240
Speaker 1: to push for implementing age limits seventy five years old,

1664
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:45,639
Speaker 1: perhaps pegged to eight years more than the current federal

1665
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 1: retirement age for both Houses of Congress at forty seven.

1666
01:31:47,960 --> 01:31:50,719
Speaker 1: I'm among the frustrated population who believes that a government

1667
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:52,840
Speaker 1: run by old people who refuse to pass the torch

1668
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 1: to the next generation is out of touch with the

1669
01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 1: challenges faced by those working and raising families in today's environment.

1670
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:01,240
Speaker 1: Regardless of party, thanks much, love the show and would

1671
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:03,800
Speaker 1: also love to hear your thoughts on and Or season two.

1672
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:06,240
Speaker 1: All right, I will give you thoughts on and Or

1673
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:11,120
Speaker 1: season two, which, my god, unbelievable. Right, it was my

1674
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:15,480
Speaker 1: only complaint about and Or season two. I couldn't multitask.

1675
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:20,000
Speaker 1: That to me, the greatest compliment to any streaming show

1676
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:22,519
Speaker 1: is if you multitask and you're like, oh wait, I

1677
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:25,920
Speaker 1: got to rewind. Right, Let's just put it this way.

1678
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:30,519
Speaker 1: Friends and neighbors could multitask, didn't miss a thing. And

1679
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:33,400
Speaker 1: Or season two could not multitask at all. In fact,

1680
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 1: we loved it so much we literally we broke up

1681
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 1: Rogue one into a three episode series just like they did.

1682
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:44,160
Speaker 1: Because Right was great about and Ors. They dropped it

1683
01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:46,599
Speaker 1: in those three episode increments. Right, So basically you got

1684
01:32:46,600 --> 01:32:50,600
Speaker 1: a movie every week for four straight weeks. That's a

1685
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:52,280
Speaker 1: great I mean, I have to say, I think that

1686
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:55,720
Speaker 1: is the sweet spot of release kudos there. I have

1687
01:32:55,800 --> 01:32:59,559
Speaker 1: a feeling Netflix is going to see what Disney pulled

1688
01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:02,560
Speaker 1: off there with and something tells me that that that

1689
01:33:03,160 --> 01:33:04,599
Speaker 1: this is the way it's going to be. In fact,

1690
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:08,320
Speaker 1: Netflix is messed around with this, and I wonder if

1691
01:33:08,320 --> 01:33:10,240
Speaker 1: they do that with Stranger Things, right, Stranger Things is

1692
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:12,160
Speaker 1: the one where they've piecemealed out, you know, done a

1693
01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:15,240
Speaker 1: part one, part two. Do they do part one, part two,

1694
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:17,519
Speaker 1: part three or something like that? But I thought it

1695
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:19,680
Speaker 1: was I liked that we got a weekly released, but

1696
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 1: I got like it usually took us the all week

1697
01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 1: to catch up on the three episodes for and or

1698
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:28,439
Speaker 1: so not only did was the show itself amazing? And yes,

1699
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:32,439
Speaker 1: boyd is it Let's just say, if you would like

1700
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:37,120
Speaker 1: to apply it to our current politics, there was plenty

1701
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:40,000
Speaker 1: to apply, that's for sure. So but it was done

1702
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:43,240
Speaker 1: in a way that didn't feel forced. It felt natural

1703
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:44,720
Speaker 1: because if you know the story of you know, the

1704
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:46,799
Speaker 1: fact is the story of Star Wars is the story

1705
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 1: of sort of And what's great about it is that

1706
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:51,880
Speaker 1: you could find something to love, whether you came at

1707
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:53,519
Speaker 1: this from the left or the right, right, it was

1708
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:56,440
Speaker 1: a bureaucracy run a monk, or it was an authoritarian

1709
01:33:56,479 --> 01:33:59,720
Speaker 1: government run a monk. Both things were true with and

1710
01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:02,280
Speaker 1: Ors Season two. So in that sense it was politically brilliant.

1711
01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:04,320
Speaker 1: All right, Now back to your actual question. I love

1712
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 1: the age limits thing. I think it's one hundred percent right.

1713
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:09,240
Speaker 1: Here's the biggest problem though with age limits, the only

1714
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 1: reason there is. In fact, I do think we need

1715
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:16,520
Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment that essentially updates both the age minimums

1716
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:21,639
Speaker 1: and the age and adding age maximums. Obviously, we didn't

1717
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:25,720
Speaker 1: worry about age maximums because everybody was dying in their sixties.

1718
01:34:26,320 --> 01:34:29,679
Speaker 1: Not many people, although the elite lived to the seventies

1719
01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:32,120
Speaker 1: or eighties, but not many people were living that long.

1720
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:36,599
Speaker 1: Obviously that is all changed. And so, but I also

1721
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:39,559
Speaker 1: think it's silly that we've made thirty five. Right. You

1722
01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:42,160
Speaker 1: can be twenty five and be a billionaire, but you

1723
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:44,479
Speaker 1: can't be president. You can't run to be president of the

1724
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:48,160
Speaker 1: United States to you're thirty five, you know. So I

1725
01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:49,960
Speaker 1: think we need to update all of our age I

1726
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:51,880
Speaker 1: think we need to make all the age minimums. I'd

1727
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:55,519
Speaker 1: probably make them all twenty five, you know, twenty five

1728
01:34:55,560 --> 01:35:00,760
Speaker 1: to hold federal office, hard stop, and that's it. And

1729
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:04,000
Speaker 1: then have you know, seventy be the last time you

1730
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:08,120
Speaker 1: seventy or seventy five. You can run if you as

1731
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:10,880
Speaker 1: long as you don't turn seventy five that election year.

1732
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 1: If you turn seventy five the following year, that's fine,

1733
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:16,040
Speaker 1: and serve through whatever it is the five years you

1734
01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:18,960
Speaker 1: know after that, but you can't seek reelection again. I

1735
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:21,040
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I don't

1736
01:35:21,040 --> 01:35:24,479
Speaker 1: think you would have. I really don't think you would

1737
01:35:24,520 --> 01:35:28,679
Speaker 1: have the lobbyist issue that I'm concerned about with term limits.

1738
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:33,839
Speaker 1: And remember that concern isn't hypothetical. It's exactly what's happened

1739
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:36,519
Speaker 1: in the states. If you go to any state capital,

1740
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:40,920
Speaker 1: the lobbyists run the show, not the legislators. That is

1741
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:46,559
Speaker 1: true every state capital. It is amazing how powerful lobbyists

1742
01:35:46,560 --> 01:35:49,080
Speaker 1: are in state capitals. As powerful as lobbysts are here,

1743
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:51,680
Speaker 1: they're not nearly as powerful as they are in many

1744
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:54,320
Speaker 1: of these state capitals. But love the idea, but realize

1745
01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:56,760
Speaker 1: it has to be a constitutional amendment. There is no

1746
01:35:56,880 --> 01:36:00,200
Speaker 1: other way to institute it. Any other attempt that you

1747
01:36:00,200 --> 01:36:02,960
Speaker 1: tried to do it would be considered unconstitutional because of

1748
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:06,080
Speaker 1: those minimum major requirements. Right when that is dictated in

1749
01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:08,559
Speaker 1: the Constitution, it means you have to write it in there.

1750
01:36:09,160 --> 01:36:11,919
Speaker 1: So if you're going to do it, and I agree

1751
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:13,400
Speaker 1: to do it, I also think we need to deal

1752
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:15,599
Speaker 1: with our age minimums. I'm going to take one more question,

1753
01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:19,920
Speaker 1: and this one is from Scott and Lori d oh.

1754
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:23,200
Speaker 1: They call themselves Todd Squad members. I'll take it. I

1755
01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: think we'll find out here. My wife and I are

1756
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 1: regular listeners at the podcast and we can often be

1757
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:32,679
Speaker 1: found found discussing your latest one, two, or even three

1758
01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:35,400
Speaker 1: podcast drops over dinner, depending on how quickly we catch

1759
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:38,719
Speaker 1: up with them. Thank you. I appreciate that. We appreciate

1760
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:41,280
Speaker 1: your independent, insightful take on politics and the political system,

1761
01:36:41,280 --> 01:36:43,839
Speaker 1: and applaud your focus on bringing credibility back to the media.

1762
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:46,679
Speaker 1: Please keep up the good work. Now onto a question

1763
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:49,240
Speaker 1: that emerged from our discussion of your most recent podcast

1764
01:36:49,280 --> 01:36:51,280
Speaker 1: regarding the feud between Elan and Donald and how it

1765
01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 1: might play out in the current political landscape. We're batting

1766
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:56,479
Speaker 1: around rather crazy idea and would love to get your thoughts. Say,

1767
01:36:56,479 --> 01:36:59,559
Speaker 1: for instance, that Trump ends up facing another impeachment. Perhaps

1768
01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:03,040
Speaker 1: given insinuations related to the Epstein files, it occurred to

1769
01:37:03,080 --> 01:37:04,840
Speaker 1: us that his best path out of such a mess

1770
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:07,519
Speaker 1: might be to resign, allowing Vance to become president. Vans

1771
01:37:07,520 --> 01:37:10,400
Speaker 1: could then follow in Trump's footsteps pardoning white collar criminals

1772
01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:13,400
Speaker 1: by partnering him of all his past and present sins.

1773
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 1: This seems to us like the best possible outcome from Trump.

1774
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:18,400
Speaker 1: He gets off scott free and potentially gets to keep

1775
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:20,120
Speaker 1: all the spoils of what many perceive as a pay

1776
01:37:20,160 --> 01:37:22,559
Speaker 1: to play presidency. Are we completely crazy or is this

1777
01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:27,680
Speaker 1: a plausible outcome in your estimation? Well, do you recall,

1778
01:37:28,720 --> 01:37:31,320
Speaker 1: and this is not a made up story, that there

1779
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:35,479
Speaker 1: were a series of what I'd call not necessarily never

1780
01:37:35,560 --> 01:37:38,479
Speaker 1: Trump donors, but sort of skeptical Trump donors. And this

1781
01:37:38,520 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 1: goes back into sixteen and then supposedly this popped up

1782
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:47,439
Speaker 1: again early twenty one, where how much would it take

1783
01:37:48,080 --> 01:37:50,679
Speaker 1: to give him to walk away? Would it be fifty

1784
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:54,519
Speaker 1: million dollars? Would it be five hundred million dollars? Could

1785
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:56,240
Speaker 1: there was there an amount of money that he could

1786
01:37:56,240 --> 01:37:58,639
Speaker 1: be paid off not to run? And this was sort

1787
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:01,160
Speaker 1: of a seriously being banned around by a couple of

1788
01:38:01,200 --> 01:38:05,240
Speaker 1: sort of hedge fund guys. And you know, my frustration

1789
01:38:05,360 --> 01:38:07,519
Speaker 1: with some of the super wealthy is that most of

1790
01:38:07,560 --> 01:38:10,720
Speaker 1: the super wealthy actually do understand that there's limits to

1791
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:13,679
Speaker 1: their own intelligence. But some of the super wealthy think

1792
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:15,840
Speaker 1: that because they have a lot more zeros in their

1793
01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:18,559
Speaker 1: bank account than the rest of us do, it means

1794
01:38:18,600 --> 01:38:22,040
Speaker 1: they're a Q is bigger, which or higher, which is

1795
01:38:22,080 --> 01:38:28,679
Speaker 1: not true. I don't know if Trump can be bought off.

1796
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:32,400
Speaker 1: I think he's intoxicated by the power, I really do.

1797
01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:36,040
Speaker 1: I think he wants to make money with it. Don't

1798
01:38:36,040 --> 01:38:38,240
Speaker 1: get me wrong. I think he sees that as the

1799
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:42,599
Speaker 1: legacy that he can build. But I don't know if

1800
01:38:42,640 --> 01:38:45,639
Speaker 1: he can be bought off that way. You know, remember

1801
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:47,479
Speaker 1: there were all sorts of rumors that he was going

1802
01:38:47,520 --> 01:38:50,720
Speaker 1: to resign and let Pence pardon him. You know, in

1803
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:54,240
Speaker 1: a weird way, he'd see that as weakness. So I

1804
01:38:54,360 --> 01:38:56,840
Speaker 1: just don't I don't buy it. And then there's the

1805
01:38:56,880 --> 01:38:59,800
Speaker 1: whole Look, one thing I didn't bring up in my

1806
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:02,080
Speaker 1: and it's a good time to bring it out. But

1807
01:39:02,200 --> 01:39:04,920
Speaker 1: most other you know, obviously, if you're listening all the

1808
01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:08,360
Speaker 1: way through, and I think you guys are, you know

1809
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 1: that I interviewed Steve Bannon over the weekend for news Fair,

1810
01:39:12,320 --> 01:39:16,800
Speaker 1: and as we were going through the Musk feud, I

1811
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:18,680
Speaker 1: asked him what he thought of Vance and whether he

1812
01:39:18,720 --> 01:39:22,400
Speaker 1: trust Advance, and he said something interesting to me about Vance.

1813
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:24,760
Speaker 1: He just said, well, you know, he's converted twice now.

1814
01:39:25,600 --> 01:39:27,679
Speaker 1: He converted from being an never Trumper and he converted

1815
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:32,400
Speaker 1: to Catholicism. It was an interesting way. And he says

1816
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:35,280
Speaker 1: he didn't sit there and say he distrusted Vance. But

1817
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:38,920
Speaker 1: as my friend chrys Eliza, who helped do a debrief

1818
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:41,840
Speaker 1: of the Bannon interview for news Fair after he said,

1819
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:43,920
Speaker 1: you know, it was the way he spoke about Vance,

1820
01:39:43,960 --> 01:39:46,120
Speaker 1: that there was this neutrality to it. There was this

1821
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 1: almost he was speaking like a diplomat, and Bannon is

1822
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,599
Speaker 1: no diplomat, but it was almost like he wasn't going

1823
01:39:52,640 --> 01:39:55,519
Speaker 1: to pick a feud with Vance today. But you could

1824
01:39:55,560 --> 01:40:00,880
Speaker 1: sense the potential distrust there, and that distrust is very real,

1825
01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:05,240
Speaker 1: one of the one of the you know, the Washington

1826
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:08,759
Speaker 1: is filled with what I call nonversations. So for instance,

1827
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:10,160
Speaker 1: and I used to bring this up, I think I

1828
01:40:10,320 --> 01:40:13,479
Speaker 1: used the phrase like Biden's ability to be president was

1829
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 1: the biggest nonversation of the first of the four years

1830
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:21,439
Speaker 1: of Biden. In fact, the nonversation was always about Kamala Harris.

1831
01:40:22,280 --> 01:40:24,240
Speaker 1: You know, you know why this is an issue is

1832
01:40:24,240 --> 01:40:27,640
Speaker 1: everybody's petrified that she can't win. That was the what

1833
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:32,000
Speaker 1: everybody was talking about, but nobody was reported. And what

1834
01:40:32,080 --> 01:40:36,839
Speaker 1: I call it a nonversation. One of the nonversations currently

1835
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:42,840
Speaker 1: floating around Washington is Trump unlike Vance. Trump's not a

1836
01:40:42,840 --> 01:40:47,000
Speaker 1: big fan of Vance. But Trump find Trump knows Advance.

1837
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:50,559
Speaker 1: You know, he's he's certainly he's not going to mit

1838
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:55,920
Speaker 1: he's wrong, number one. But there is this, you know,

1839
01:40:55,960 --> 01:40:58,280
Speaker 1: there's a reason he keeps saying, well, you know, he

1840
01:40:58,320 --> 01:41:02,360
Speaker 1: doesn't automatically save Vance is his air apparent. You know,

1841
01:41:02,400 --> 01:41:04,439
Speaker 1: he's setting up Rubio. Could be Vance, could be Rubio,

1842
01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:08,280
Speaker 1: could be somebody else. Right, He loves saying that. That

1843
01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 1: is It is to me, the clearest shot that he

1844
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:14,040
Speaker 1: could be taking right now at Vance, and nobody's quite

1845
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:17,920
Speaker 1: picking up on it. Right because Vance is the emissary

1846
01:41:18,000 --> 01:41:21,320
Speaker 1: for the Brologarchs. This is why I was very curious

1847
01:41:21,320 --> 01:41:24,320
Speaker 1: to see where Bannon would fall on Vance. And remember

1848
01:41:24,439 --> 01:41:31,200
Speaker 1: Vance's initial statements after the feud broke out. He said,

1849
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:34,680
Speaker 1: there's nobody who was something like, there's nobody who's demonstrated

1850
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:37,040
Speaker 1: their ability to lead this movement like Donald Trump, and

1851
01:41:37,080 --> 01:41:40,599
Speaker 1: I will stand next to him. He didn't necessarily say,

1852
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:42,680
Speaker 1: and he even said he goes, I hope everybody can

1853
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:45,080
Speaker 1: make up. He wanted to bring Musk into the fold

1854
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:47,640
Speaker 1: back in the fold, and Trump and some around him

1855
01:41:47,680 --> 01:41:50,559
Speaker 1: were not speaking that way at all. So it shows you, right,

1856
01:41:50,640 --> 01:41:53,720
Speaker 1: Vance is definitely this is part of the coalition. You know,

1857
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:55,840
Speaker 1: if you're not, if you don't like anything on the

1858
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:58,040
Speaker 1: right side of the aisle, you view Vance and Trump

1859
01:41:58,120 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 1: as the same. But Vance is not mag Vance is

1860
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:04,599
Speaker 1: a is sort of a mega transactionalist. He's become MAGA

1861
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:08,600
Speaker 1: because that was the fastest way to political power, and

1862
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:12,000
Speaker 1: Peter Teel was his financial mentor. He doesn't win that

1863
01:42:12,040 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 1: Ohio Senate seat without Peter Teal funding him at the

1864
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:17,919
Speaker 1: last minute. The rest of the Republican Party wasn't that interested,

1865
01:42:18,400 --> 01:42:23,599
Speaker 1: and that's what finally got Trump on board and here

1866
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:28,599
Speaker 1: we are. So that's the other flaw in your scenario

1867
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:32,840
Speaker 1: is I don't know how much Trump trusts Vans, and

1868
01:42:32,880 --> 01:42:37,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if Trump wants to actually handpower to him.

1869
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:40,479
Speaker 1: I think he wants Vans to earn that power, and

1870
01:42:40,520 --> 01:42:43,280
Speaker 1: we'll see. I don't know how well Vance will wear

1871
01:42:43,320 --> 01:42:49,679
Speaker 1: without Trump's impromptor I really don't. But I don't buy

1872
01:42:49,720 --> 01:42:52,479
Speaker 1: this scenario that you're saying. And I just by the way,

1873
01:42:52,520 --> 01:42:56,560
Speaker 1: an impeachment, I cannot imagine Democrats are going to go

1874
01:42:56,560 --> 01:42:59,559
Speaker 1: down this impeachment road. I really don't. I think the

1875
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 1: only they go down this impeachment road is if Trump

1876
01:43:03,080 --> 01:43:05,360
Speaker 1: signals that he's going to try to have a third term,

1877
01:43:05,640 --> 01:43:09,000
Speaker 1: Because then there's a rationale to go down the impeachment road, right,

1878
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:12,120
Speaker 1: which is you impeach him, you con victim, and you

1879
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:15,080
Speaker 1: bar them from seeking federal office. Right to me, the

1880
01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:18,599
Speaker 1: only potential trigger for impeachment is if he truly tries

1881
01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:20,840
Speaker 1: to run for a third term and defy the Constitution.

1882
01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:24,479
Speaker 1: And let's remember, he is still going to be an

1883
01:43:24,479 --> 01:43:26,320
Speaker 1: eighty two year old man. And I know everybody thinks

1884
01:43:26,320 --> 01:43:28,320
Speaker 1: he's got all this energy and stuff. He's got energy

1885
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:31,080
Speaker 1: when you compare it to Biden. But listen to his conrad.

1886
01:43:31,160 --> 01:43:33,559
Speaker 1: Listen to anytime you hear him talk. Now after four

1887
01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:36,840
Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon, it's like dealing with any grandparent

1888
01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:42,320
Speaker 1: after four o'clock in the afternoon. All right, with that,

1889
01:43:43,920 --> 01:43:49,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wrap it up here. I am becoming an

1890
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:53,320
Speaker 1: empty nester. I'm freaking out about this. Oh my kid.

1891
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:56,720
Speaker 1: I cannot believe that I am now the parent of

1892
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:02,639
Speaker 1: two young adults who now, uh you know, I can

1893
01:44:02,720 --> 01:44:05,600
Speaker 1: protect them some but not like I could before. So

1894
01:44:05,760 --> 01:44:07,519
Speaker 1: it is it is both a proud moment and a

1895
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:09,680
Speaker 1: scary moment all at the same time. So with that,

1896
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:13,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate you tuning in, appreciate you liking and subscribing.

1897
01:44:13,080 --> 01:44:15,439
Speaker 1: Please check out what's going on over at newsphere. This

1898
01:44:15,560 --> 01:44:18,880
Speaker 1: is this is this is if you care about world

1899
01:44:19,320 --> 01:44:25,080
Speaker 1: uhu news around the world, global news, international news, serious stuff.

1900
01:44:25,880 --> 01:44:28,160
Speaker 1: Uh and and you're sort of you're you're a you're

1901
01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:32,040
Speaker 1: an A list news junkie. You need to be part

1902
01:44:32,080 --> 01:44:33,800
Speaker 1: of news Spare. So I hope you do check it out.

1903
01:44:33,840 --> 01:44:35,800
Speaker 1: And with that, until we upload again.

1904
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:37,360
Speaker 3: M