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Speaker 1: Rodney maintained this innocence the entire time, and I would

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Speaker 1: often say, well, if you lie enough, you will believe it.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand, DNA testing reveals there's no physical evidence

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Speaker 1: tying Rodney Lincoln to Joe and Tate's murder. All that's

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Speaker 1: left now is Melissa's adamant, unwavering eyewitness testimony. It was heinous,

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Speaker 1: it was sadistic. I know he did it. I'm Leah Rothman.

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Speaker 1: This is the real killer, Episode six. I need to

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Speaker 1: go back. For the last twelve years, Kay Lincoln and

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Speaker 1: her dad's attorneys at the Midwest Innocence Project have been

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Speaker 1: on a roller coaster rye fighting for Rodney's release. During

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Speaker 1: that time, there have been intense highs and crushing lows

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Speaker 1: in Melissa's life as well. When my daughter was little,

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Speaker 1: you know, I had resolved that I'd be a great mom,

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Speaker 1: derd supportive, and I'd have a bond with her. The

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Speaker 1: truth is I had a hard time completely connecting to her.

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Speaker 1: Mine was a fear of loving someone so much that

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Speaker 1: they would be taken away from me. Because of my

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Speaker 1: job with a Department of Defense, and at the time,

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Speaker 1: mental health help was not You couldn't get it without

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Speaker 1: risk losing your clearance. My daughter paid for that. When

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Speaker 1: she was eleven. She convinced me that the best programs

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Speaker 1: for science and mathematics and robotics where her dad was.

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Speaker 1: He lived in Oregon, and I didn't want to let

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Speaker 1: her go, but I knew she had a chance. It

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Speaker 1: was hard as thing I did as I let her go,

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Speaker 1: but she had a dream and I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: squash it. I didn't want her to be able to

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Speaker 1: exposed my dysfunction. I let her down. I let her

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Speaker 1: let her down. Also, around this time, Melissa has to

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Speaker 1: say goodbye to someone else she holds precious. Her baby sister, Bernie,

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Speaker 1: had cervical cancer, and she had died within a year

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Speaker 1: or so being diagnosed. She had three kids. She had

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Speaker 1: two girls and a boy. When I was very tired

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Speaker 1: by the time she wad surely one. She was tired

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Speaker 1: of being alive, and I think she fought as hard

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Speaker 1: as she could. When I was part of my foundation,

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Speaker 1: she was gone. I wanted to run and never stop,

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Speaker 1: but everywhere I went it was the same because the

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Speaker 1: things I was running from was inside of my being.

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Speaker 1: In the years that follow Melissa does her best to

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Speaker 1: move past the pain and trauma. She gets a degree

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Speaker 1: in criminal justice and finds another great job, this time

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Speaker 1: as a supervisor at a medical imaging center. Just when

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Speaker 1: life is starting to normalize a bit, she gets a

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Speaker 1: message from a friend that levels her. He said, was

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Speaker 1: you're in the news again. They're talking about you and

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Speaker 1: your mom again, and it was something for Rodney, and

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Speaker 1: I just realized at that moment, I couldn't pretend to

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Speaker 1: be normal anymore. The next day I wanted to work.

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Speaker 1: I put my badge on my desk, and I quit

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Speaker 1: my job. Melissa is diagnosed with complex PTSD and is

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Speaker 1: unable to work. I was waiting to be approved for disability,

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Speaker 1: so I had no money and no job. I slept

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Speaker 1: and basement, I slept on couches. I was homeless, and

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Speaker 1: I had nothing of my own. Melissa's cousin, who lives

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Speaker 1: in the quaint town of Corapolis, Pennsylvania, right outside Pittsburgh,

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Speaker 1: invites her to move in, so she does. There's stability

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Speaker 1: once again, but it won't last for long. Is going

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Speaker 1: to be a year like no other. Here's kay Lincoln.

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Speaker 1: During the summer, I got a email from Bill Clutter,

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Speaker 1: who was a private investigator who had been aware of

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Speaker 1: my dad's case, and he contacted me and said that

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Speaker 1: he was working with a production crew for a television

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Speaker 1: program called Crime Watch Daily, and they were looking for

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Speaker 1: cases that someone had been wrongfully convicted and it was

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Speaker 1: a possibility that Tommy lind Cells may have been the perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: Much more on Tommy land Cells later, but first some

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Speaker 1: background on Crime Watch Daily. I'm working as a writer there.

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Speaker 1: It's an hour long program, five days a week, dedicated

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Speaker 1: to true crime, mostly murder, and with that dark kind

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Speaker 1: of subject matter day in and day out. I was

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Speaker 1: thankful for the camaraderie we had, especially in the writer's room. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I talked a little bit about how Crime Watch Daily

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Speaker 1: ended up telling this story in episode one, but here

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Speaker 1: are a few more details. Basically, I was asked to

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Speaker 1: see if we had enough to tell the intended story.

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Speaker 1: It was supposed to be like a ten minute profile

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Speaker 1: piece on the true crime author Diane Fanning and her

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Speaker 1: book Through the Window, which is about the serial killer

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Speaker 1: Tommy land Cells. So after reviewing all the interviews and research,

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Speaker 1: I told my bosses that we needed to shift the

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Speaker 1: focus and take a closer look at Rodney's case, and

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Speaker 1: we needed to interview Rodney and Melissa. They agreed. Rodney

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Speaker 1: is quickly on board, but Melissa, well, she takes a minute.

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Speaker 1: I was adamant that I wouldn't do it, and then

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Speaker 1: suddenly there I was ready to tell my story and

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about mom, and ready to look

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Speaker 1: at that camera and say, without shadow, is a doubt

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Speaker 1: that Rodney did it. A few months later, on November,

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Speaker 1: the episode entitled Who Killed Joe An Tate airs and

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Speaker 1: Rodney maintains his innocence. God knows. I'm no angel. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I kill a man. Never in my life could I

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Speaker 1: I would I oh on my job? No what Melissa

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Speaker 1: is equal at least steadfast in his guilt. There is

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Speaker 1: no way it could be anybody but Rodney. I know,

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Speaker 1: he knows. God knows. Also on the show are private

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Speaker 1: investigator Bill Clutter and Diane Fanning. Both had done extensive

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Speaker 1: research on tommulin Cells and both agreed that there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of similarities between his crimes and Joe and

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Speaker 1: Tate's murder. In a series of interviews, calls, and correspondence,

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Speaker 1: Tommulan Cells told Diane Fanning, among many other things, there

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Speaker 1: are crimes other people are sitting in prison for that

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Speaker 1: he actually committed, but he won't discuss anything that he

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Speaker 1: didn't St. Louis because he still has family there. Here's Melissa.

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Speaker 1: I will never forget that week. My cousin was supposed

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Speaker 1: to watch a show with me then out of air,

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Speaker 1: and she didn't. I tried to wait, and curiosity was

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Speaker 1: getting the best at me. So I started to watch

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Speaker 1: at the house and I couldn't. I remember seeing a

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Speaker 1: crime scene picture pop up, and I just immediately like

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Speaker 1: paused it because I had never seen that picture since

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Speaker 1: I lived it. Had you ever seen the crime scene photos? No?

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Speaker 1: I actually two thousand, I don't. I don't remember what

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Speaker 1: year it was, but it was evidential you're hearing. And

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Speaker 1: after many years of asking to see pictures, I got

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Speaker 1: shown in three or four. They were not super graphic.

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Speaker 1: The ones that showed up in crime Watched Shelley were

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Speaker 1: new and immediately it could have just been the pictures

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Speaker 1: alone or the background music that came with it, but

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Speaker 1: I felt scared. I felt like there was someone around

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Speaker 1: the corner of the liver, that I was in danger,

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Speaker 1: that I needed to hide. This sits hard because as

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Speaker 1: a true crime producer. I've often worried about how telling

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Speaker 1: these stories affects survivors and victims family members. Even during

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Speaker 1: the making of this podcast, I've asked myself if I'm

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Speaker 1: re traumatizing Melissa. She's assured me all along the way

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Speaker 1: she's okay. In fact, it's actually helping her heal. I

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Speaker 1: sure hope that's true. Anyway. For k it's what happens

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Speaker 1: after the show that's most significant. The program was shown

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Speaker 1: on a Monday night. On Thanksgiving morning. That Thursday, I

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Speaker 1: woke up and had a Facebook message from Nathaniel Plenty,

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Speaker 1: and his Facebook message said that my sister and I

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Speaker 1: believe that your dad is innocent and we want to

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Speaker 1: know how we can help him, but we're afraid of

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Speaker 1: hurting Melissa. We want to protect Lissa. Would you please

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Speaker 1: call me? And he gave me his phone number, and

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Speaker 1: when I spoke with him that day, he told me

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Speaker 1: there had been doubts throughout the years, but they were

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Speaker 1: always kind of pushed back because Melissa was so adamant.

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Speaker 1: He also told me a really heartwarming story about during

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Speaker 1: the trial one day they couldn't find his mom. She

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Speaker 1: kind of disappeared and they went looking for her, and

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Speaker 1: they found her sitting in the cafeteria eating lunch with

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Speaker 1: my grandmother and they were like, mom, why are you

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Speaker 1: talking to her? And she told them this woman hasn't

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Speaker 1: done anything to any of us. She's lost a child too.

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Speaker 1: The two mothers, the mother of the murder victim and

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Speaker 1: the mother of the man accused of killing her, we're

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Speaker 1: sitting there having lunch together. I see you're getting a

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Speaker 1: little emotional talking about that. It just it makes me

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Speaker 1: sad for both of them that, but also, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of heart it. It's just an emotional

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Speaker 1: thing that they were able to come together, just both

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Speaker 1: as grieving mothers and just be human, be kind to

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Speaker 1: each other. That's not it's a rare quality in this world.

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Speaker 1: When Melissa finally watches the show, she tells her cousin,

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Speaker 1: I said, something's not right. Something it's not right. What

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Speaker 1: I remember is not right. And I started to cry

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Speaker 1: and I said, what do you think? And she said,

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Speaker 1: the family didn't want to tell you, but we've had

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Speaker 1: our doults for a very long time. And I felt

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Speaker 1: something within me just break open a little bit. I

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Speaker 1: was afraid because I knew I had to go back

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Speaker 1: and look at what I remembered. I created a safe place.

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Speaker 1: And there's little Melissa there, and I tell her I

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Speaker 1: need permission to go look at what I put away

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Speaker 1: a long time ago. And I'm going back, and I'm

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Speaker 1: in that day at the park, and I'm with my mom,

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Speaker 1: and I'm in that night, and I'm seeing the same

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Speaker 1: things that I knew I had seen. That wasn't different.

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Speaker 1: It was a man that was different. Rodney was not there.

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Speaker 1: Ronny was never in our house that night, never never.

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Speaker 1: He did not kill my mom. He didn't hurt me

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Speaker 1: or my sister. He wasn't there. He didn't sit and

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Speaker 1: watch TV while we died. He didn't violate my body.

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Speaker 1: He did violat my mother her brutalize her after she

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Speaker 1: was gone. He didn't cause that blood to be everywhere.

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Speaker 1: He didn't cause me to scream. He didn't cause me

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Speaker 1: to be afraid of men. Rodney wasn't never fair. And

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Speaker 1: I came out of that moment. I felt like I

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Speaker 1: couldn't breathe, and I felt so scared, I felt so little,

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Speaker 1: I felt so bad. I felt so so bad. When

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Speaker 1: I went back and I allowed myself not to see

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Speaker 1: Rodney I absolutely saw a wild, squarely facial hair. I

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Speaker 1: smelled beer. His hair was for the like almost kind

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Speaker 1: of curly. Um. And he was a bigger guy. And

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Speaker 1: it's strange though, how like The thing that sticks out

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Speaker 1: to me the most was the dead eyes, Like he

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Speaker 1: looked cold and detached, and yet he was enjoying it.

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Speaker 1: Now it's someone else's mug shots plastered all over the

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Speaker 1: show that stirs up Melissa's buried memories. I know Tommy

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Speaker 1: Lindsell has killed my mom. I know he was in

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Speaker 1: the house. I know he's that one that hurt us

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Speaker 1: and stabbed to us. I see that face. I know

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Speaker 1: that face. I know that faces Bill Tommy Lynn sells

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Speaker 1: mug shots. And what Melissa hears Diane Fanning say about

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Speaker 1: him make her now believe he is Bill. She was

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Speaker 1: saying that um he talked about not acknowledging really um

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Speaker 1: the people that he heard in St. Louis because he

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Speaker 1: had family there. But what got me was the m O,

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Speaker 1: the m O for his crimes. It was very similar

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Speaker 1: to things that had happened to us. What do you

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Speaker 1: do with this new realization? I couldn't sleep on it.

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Speaker 1: I knew right away. I did use the right thing.

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Speaker 1: It's now late November and kay Lincoln gets a friend

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Speaker 1: request she never saw coming. That's Saturday after Thanksgiving. I

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Speaker 1: was sitting in my living room. I was on the

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Speaker 1: phone with my sister and close family friend, and I

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Speaker 1: had my laptop open to Facebook and I said, you, guys,

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Speaker 1: I just got a friend request from Melissa. And once

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Speaker 1: I accepted the request, I saw that I also had

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Speaker 1: a message from her. The message said can we talk?

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Speaker 1: And in my mind, I thought, hmm, do we want

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Speaker 1: to talk? Did we want to argue? Do we want

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Speaker 1: to fight? Whatever it is, I'm up for it. So

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Speaker 1: I said, yes, absolutely, and I sent her my phone

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Speaker 1: number and she said She responded saying, I'm so scared.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I'm losing my mind. And when I

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Speaker 1: read that, my hair stood on end. I got chills.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting chills right now just thinking about it, just

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Speaker 1: remembering that moment, and I knew. I responded to her,

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Speaker 1: don't be scared, it's going to be okay. I'm calling

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Speaker 1: you right now, because she had sent me her phone number,

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Speaker 1: and I dialed her number and she picked it up

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Speaker 1: and she was just sobbing on the other end. She

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Speaker 1: was crying, and all she kept saying was I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry your poor dad, I'm

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Speaker 1: so sorry. And I just kept trying to reassure her

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Speaker 1: and calm her down that it's not her fault. None

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Speaker 1: of it is her fault. She was just a baby,

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Speaker 1: she was seven years old. She said that there were

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Speaker 1: times through the years when she felt doubt and she

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Speaker 1: wasn't sure that she had picked the right person. And

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Speaker 1: every time she did doubt that she would contact the

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Speaker 1: prosecutors or the victim's advocate and they would reassure her

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Speaker 1: that no, this was him, it was Rodney Lincoln. She

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Speaker 1: had the right person, and so she would just push

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Speaker 1: those doubts back down. Then Rodney, here is the unbelievable news.

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Speaker 1: I just knew it this time. Now they got nothing,

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Speaker 1: no air, no witness, and she's gonna tell the court.

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Speaker 1: I would go on, let him go. So Rodney's m

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Speaker 1: IP lawyer's request a meeting with the Circuit Attorney's office

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Speaker 1: just to get the wheels of justice moving. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: Melissa's in viewed by Crime Watch Daily for a follow

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Speaker 1: up show, basically a show about her shocking recantation that weekend,

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Speaker 1: Melissa also sits down to write an affidavit officially recanting,

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Speaker 1: which she'll bring to the meeting at the Circuit Attorney's office.

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Speaker 1: In it, she states that Rodney Lincoln is not her

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Speaker 1: mother's killer. She now believes Tommy land Cells is with

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Speaker 1: her while writing the affidavit is the p I Bill Clutter,

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Speaker 1: who had investigated Tommy land Cells for years. By the way,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure who suggested the affidavit or why Bill

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Speaker 1: Clutter was there when it was written. Melissa doesn't remember either.

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Speaker 1: A few days later, on December four, the meeting with

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Speaker 1: the Circuit Attorney's office takes place. There that day are

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Speaker 1: investigator Quinn O'Brien, Rodney's daughter K, and Rodney's attorney Tricia

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Speaker 1: Rojo Bushnell, who was hired as m IPS Legal Director

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Speaker 1: in Before that, Tricia worked with the Equal Justice Initiative

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Speaker 1: in Alabama and at the Wisconsin Innocence Project and the

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Speaker 1: Criminal Appeals Project at the University of Wisconsin School of Law.

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Speaker 1: So Tricia, Quinn, and K are at the meeting, but

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Speaker 1: not allowed in. Those who are Melissa, Uncle Nat and

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Speaker 1: Aunt Lourie, someone from the Victims Services Unit, a Captain

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Speaker 1: with the St. Louis Metro p D and the Assistant

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Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney. All sit around a large conference room table. Now,

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Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of people in here, and

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Speaker 1: I just want to make sure are you comfortable with

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Speaker 1: the presence of everyone here. We want you to be comfortable.

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Speaker 1: We want you to feel at easy. Yes, I am

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Speaker 1: completely comfortable with everyone that is here. That's at Bistacco.

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Speaker 1: He was the assistant Circuit Attorney. Now he's the chief

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Speaker 1: Warrant Officer, which means he's the head liaison for the

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Speaker 1: police when they bring criminal charges to prosecutors for consideration.

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Speaker 1: Remember he was basically the one for the last several

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Speaker 1: years who handled Rodney's case for the Circuit Attorney's office.

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Speaker 1: He'll be leading the meeting, which is videotaped. After the introductions,

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Speaker 1: Ed addresses Melissa, who's sitting at the head of the table.

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Speaker 1: You and I have been had some sort of communication.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've met in person and number of times

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Speaker 1: and uh, and we have talked on the phone many times,

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Speaker 1: as fair to say. And I don't know the exact

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Speaker 1: time we started communicating that it was probably around two

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Speaker 1: thousand two or two thousand three. During that entire time period.

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Speaker 1: You were consistent that Rodney Lincoln was the perpetrator of

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Speaker 1: the offense. Yes, okay, and even no doubt. Okay. Good.

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Speaker 1: So that gets us into now we talked in September.

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Speaker 1: You know you you were still very firm then, very

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Speaker 1: adamant that Rodney Lincoln was the perpetrator of this offense.

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Speaker 1: And so let talk about what has developed since September.

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Speaker 1: Melissa tells them about watching the show and then learning

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Speaker 1: her family has been quietly living with their doubts for years.

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Speaker 1: That gave me permission to really think about it. When

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Speaker 1: you say it gave you permission, what do you mean

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Speaker 1: by that? For years, I felt like anything that I

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Speaker 1: did that would ever contrast with who I said was

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Speaker 1: in prison, which was Rodney. I felt like anything I

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Speaker 1: said against that would be betraying my family, would be

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Speaker 1: betraying the detectives that work so hard in the case,

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Speaker 1: and it would be betraying you guys, because you guys

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Speaker 1: have stood behind me the whole time. And it sounds

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Speaker 1: so dumb, but that's what I felt when this all happened.

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Speaker 1: I told the police that the man had worked on

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Speaker 1: my mom's car, that he said his name was bill,

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Speaker 1: that he was from Hollywood, that he had Volkswagen. I

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Speaker 1: told him all of that, So I don't know how

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Speaker 1: Rodney got there. And that makes me very angry because

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Speaker 1: I felt, as my seven year olds, my responsibility was

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Speaker 1: to talk because my MoMA couldn't, you know. And I

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Speaker 1: felt like I had to tell what happened. The man

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Speaker 1: who stabbed me, he said on top of me and

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Speaker 1: used this hand to stabbed me. And I told the

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Speaker 1: cops that Ronnie Linkn is left handed. I just feel

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Speaker 1: like they had so many opportunities to fix this and

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Speaker 1: they did the worst police work. And it makes me

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Speaker 1: sad because I did my job. I did. Then ed

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Speaker 1: asks about the affidavit. Melissa wrote before this meeting, the

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Speaker 1: words in the affidavit, Um, your words, somebody else's words

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Speaker 1: are okay. All your words okay, because there was some

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Speaker 1: level of detail that I was a little surprised to see. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean we sat down next to each other, um,

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Speaker 1: and we went over. I told him things to put

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Speaker 1: in there. There's certain phrases and stuff I don't put

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Speaker 1: in there. Certain words like manipulated. Yes that I exactly

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Speaker 1: came from me. Okay. Um, but you know he had

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Speaker 1: some details. These are details already knew. Um, yes that

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Speaker 1: that those are my words, though he used the word

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Speaker 1: earlier manipulated. Who do you feel manipulated? I don't think

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Speaker 1: he did it on purpose. I think it was terrible

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Speaker 1: police work. And I love him. He was like a

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Speaker 1: dad to me. All Right. I don't want, I really

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Speaker 1: don't want to believe he did have premose, Okay, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like I was so vulnerable back then. Then

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Speaker 1: the city was out for blood. They wanted to catch

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Speaker 1: and did it. So I guess I'm not quite clear.

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Speaker 1: So do you are? Are you saying that Rodney Lincoln

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Speaker 1: did not commit this act and you're not sure who did,

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Speaker 1: or that Tommy Cells did or Tommy Cells might ever,

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Speaker 1: what is your feeling on, Oh, Randy Lincoln did not

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Speaker 1: commit this act. It was Tommy Saul's the absolutely enter

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Speaker 1: her home and trying to kill Borne and I he

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Speaker 1: murdered my mom. Okay. The reason you say you know

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Speaker 1: who did it is based upon what That's what I

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Speaker 1: want to flashbacks In the recollection, Assistant Circuit Attorney Mary

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Speaker 1: pat Carl goes back to the AFFI, David, it's about

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Speaker 1: to become a very big problem. I know you said

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Speaker 1: to add that these are your words, um, and this

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Speaker 1: is gonna sound silly. They can't all be your words,

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Speaker 1: so right. I mean, I've been a lawyer for thirteen years,

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Speaker 1: and if I were going to write something, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: write in legal ease unless I was like specifically writing

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Speaker 1: a core documents most people, and you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've worked in domestic violence and in sex crimes. I'm

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Speaker 1: very very familiar with kind of the merger of what

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Speaker 1: happens when a lay person who does not write in

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Speaker 1: legal ease and somebody who is an investigator and does.

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Speaker 1: It ends up sort of a shared grouping of words. Well,

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Speaker 1: moost are my words? Right? But that means that he

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Speaker 1: probably type that because in his mind he was writing

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Speaker 1: you will listen to ask. Now, I feel like we're

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Speaker 1: splitting hairs and I'm getting irritated. I don't mean to

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Speaker 1: do that, but I just mean, I want to know

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Speaker 1: this is going to be the subject for my word okay,

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Speaker 1: And I just asked, sooner or later this is gonna

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Speaker 1: end up. This next chapter is gonna end up with me,

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Speaker 1: and it's gonna be my job and some other people's

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Speaker 1: jobs to analyze it. Just like where do we go

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Speaker 1: from here? The right thing is where you guys go, Okay,

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Speaker 1: And I don't mean my job to figure that out

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Speaker 1: out what the right thing to do it. I have

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Speaker 1: been a puppet of this city for years. I'm done,

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Speaker 1: And I told you those are my words, and that's fine.

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Speaker 1: If that's the answer, that's fine. But if I said

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Speaker 1: if I if, if it came to my attention, it's

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Speaker 1: going to come to someone else's attention, and I want

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Speaker 1: to be able to answer and let them come after me.

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Speaker 1: No one's coming after you. No one's coming at you

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Speaker 1: at all. I didn't you think I'm not smart enough

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Speaker 1: to use those words? No, no, no, Melissa. Nobody is

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Speaker 1: saying that. Nobody is saying that we can move on

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Speaker 1: from the SEC's it is. It is simply so. If

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Speaker 1: I would have typed it up on my computer, then

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Speaker 1: would you be happy? Would you? I will do that

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Speaker 1: for you criticizing. Okay, I've gotten a lot of the

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Speaker 1: state to keep him here, and I hope you guys

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Speaker 1: do the fucking right thing. Melissa has just stormed out

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Speaker 1: of the meeting at the Circuit Attorney's office. She returns

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Speaker 1: not long after things are calmer for sure, but it's

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Speaker 1: clear freeing Rodney is going to be an uphill battle.

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Speaker 1: Former Circuit attorney Jennifer Joyce wasn't in the meeting that day,

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Speaker 1: but here's in part what she had to say in

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Speaker 1: her statement about Melissa's recantation. Quote. My reaction to Melissa's

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Speaker 1: recantation was one of sadness and heartbreak for Melissa. She

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Speaker 1: has been through so much over the years, and the

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Speaker 1: efforts by some to advocate for Rodney Lincoln's innocence were relentless.

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Speaker 1: After hearing the evidence involved in this case, a jury

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Speaker 1: and multiple appellate courts have so concluded, I have not

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Speaker 1: seen anything to make me believe that they are wrong.

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Speaker 1: I also asked Jennifer Joyce what evidence there is that

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Speaker 1: Rodney did it. She referred me to the various court

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Speaker 1: records and Melissa's quote adamant witness identification. But despite Jennifer

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Speaker 1: Joyce's apparent belief in Rodney's guilt, she said this, since

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Speaker 1: Mr Lincoln had already spent a significant amount of time

403
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Speaker 1: in jail, I wanted to do whatever I could to

404
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Speaker 1: bring some peace to Melissa. However, I lacked the legal

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Speaker 1: power to take any action. Here's Rodney's attorney, Tricia Bushnell.

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Speaker 1: So you know, after the recantation meeting, I went to

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Speaker 1: meet with Ed Postacco and we sort of were like,

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Speaker 1: can we come to an agreement? Right? You don't you

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Speaker 1: know in a case anymore? She's now recantidate and you

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Speaker 1: couldn't convict him. You couldn't arrest him, right, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have no evidence. So can can we come to an agreement?

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Speaker 1: Tricia's basically told no. The problem is it's out of

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Speaker 1: the Circuit Attorney's offices hands because they are no longer

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Speaker 1: the responding party. Here's why. The responding party is not

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Speaker 1: the county where Rodney was convicted St. Louis County. It's

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Speaker 1: where he's currently being held, which is Jefferson City Correctional

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Speaker 1: in Coal County. So now it's in the Attorney General's

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Speaker 1: hands because they represent the Department of Corrections and handle

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Speaker 1: all post conviction appeals and habeas corpus appeals. So Rodney's

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00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: lawyers file a Habea corpus petition which basically says someone

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Speaker 1: Rodney in this case is being unconstitutionally held, and that

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00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: gets filed against the warden of the prison. That petition

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Speaker 1: will culminate in an evidentiary hearing in the coming months.

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Speaker 1: You met Sean O'Brien in the last episode. Here he

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Speaker 1: is describing the four claims detailed in the petition. We

426
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: raised four arguments against Rodney's conviction. The first one was

427
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: simply that he was innocent, that under the am Ryan

428
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: standard um, he should be released because the evidence that

429
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: he's innocent is clear and convincing. Joe am Ryan, who

430
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: was tried and convicted and sentenced to death, I actually

431
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: argued his case in the Missouri Supreme Court and the

432
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: Missouri Attorney General told the court that it didn't matter

433
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: if Joe was innocent, he should still be executed in anyway. Unfortunately,

434
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: the Missouri Supreme Court, when they saw that extreme position,

435
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: that rejected it and Joe is free. Rodney Lincoln's case

436
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: is a perfect example of that um. The second claim

437
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: challenged the hair You know, hair evidence is junk science.

438
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: The third claim was Brady versus Maryland. It's a U. S.

439
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: Supreme Court case that says the due process clause of

440
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: the Fourteenth Amendment is violated when the prosecutor with holds

441
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: evidence that would be helpful to the defense, especially if

442
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: it might make a difference to the jury. So that

443
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: was based on the DFS reports, Mary Flowtron's reports that

444
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: Melissa was identifying other men, including the prosecutor, as the

445
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: assailant in this case. The fourth claim was ineffective assistance

446
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: of counsel, and that was based on all the questionable

447
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: things about Robert Hampy's poor defense of Rodney, but also

448
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: his interest arising from his involvement in his fraud scheme

449
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: that he have all been to a murder case. Literally

450
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: the morning of Rodney's trial, you can't make this up.

451
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: You just can't make this up. Well, m IP lawyers

452
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: are preparing their case. The Attorney General's office waste no

453
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: time on theirs. Mid January, Assistant Attorney General Mike Spillane

454
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: interviews Detective Joseph Burgoon and victims advocate Mary Flotron, And

455
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: in these interviews there's a lot of talk about some new,

456
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: well not so new evidence they think they have against Rodney.

457
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: It's what will come to be known as the funny

458
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: Finger story. Basically, it's been alleged that Melissa, back around

459
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: the time of the trials in nineteen three, told her

460
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: victims advocate Mary Flowtron, the bad man had a funny finger.

461
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: Rodney Lincoln is missing part of his right pinky. So

462
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: for the Attorney General, this is just more proof that

463
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: Rodney is the killer. In all of her statements to

464
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: everyone prior to the trial, she never said anything about

465
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: the killer missing a finger. M I. P. Believes this

466
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: story was fabricated. If Melissa had told Mary Flotron the

467
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: bad man had a funny finger, it would have been

468
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: in those DFS reports they discovered, and the prosecution would

469
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: have used it at trial. The missing finger story came

470
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: when we started alleging that Rodney didn't do it, and

471
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: appeared the sabotage Melissa's recantation by inventing this funny finger story.

472
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: In January, Assistant Attorney General mike's Blaine also talks with

473
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: the prosecutor for both trials, Joe Bauer. I was able

474
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: to get my hands on that audio taped call. Hello,

475
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: good morning, Mr Bauer. This is Mike Spliant. How are you, sir?

476
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: I'm okay, how are you? Mike? It's pretty good. They

477
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: discussed many things, like the funny finger story, the DFS files,

478
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: and Melissa's stellar performance on the stand. Here's Joe Bauer. Well, uh,

479
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you that you haven't been there. That

480
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: seven year old girls the best witness I've ever seen.

481
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: She just was believable, Um, pretty even keeled for someone

482
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: who had been through everything she'd been through. Um, you know,

483
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: he could grow examined or all he wanted, and he

484
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: was never going to make a dent in what she said.

485
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: And this this, Uh, I mean, I don't know why

486
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: she's recanting now because I've talked to her five or

487
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: six times in the last thirty years, and you know,

488
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: she was always upset. She called me when when the

489
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: parole board was going to meet to see if they're

490
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 1: gonna let him out, and uh, you know, I don't

491
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 1: know what happened here other than I think his his

492
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: family's investigators wower down, or maybe she likes the attention now,

493
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, but you know, he could have crossed

494
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: the gamin or for a month and that's gotten anywhere. Yeah,

495
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: her memory isn't better now than it was thirty years ago.

496
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 1: I reached out to both Assistant Attorney General Mike Spillane

497
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: and Joe Bower for comment, but never heard back. On March,

498
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: scores of people to send on the courthouse in Coal

499
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: County for the evidentiary hearing on the habeas corpus petition.

500
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: I mean it's packed. A handcuffed seventy one year old

501
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: Rodney Lincoln is brought in. When he sees the courtroom

502
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: full of his supporters, he smiles and mouths the word

503
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: wow several times. And Melissa's there too, she'll be testifying here.

504
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: Shawn O'Brien explaining the state's position. The Attorney general's response was,

505
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: first of all, procedural. This case is so old. He's

506
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: had all these chances to buy his conviction. It's over.

507
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if he can prove he's innocent. He

508
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: does not have a claim. And then they turned and

509
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: fought Melissa on her recantation, and they tried to attribute

510
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: the recantation to manipulation by the media. They tried to

511
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: undermine her credibility, and they attacked her viciously. They wanted

512
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: to bring up the fact that I was paid for

513
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 1: my pictures? Who paid? Cryme? Wmatch give me money for

514
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: my pictures? I said, my murder dead mother, my little

515
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 1: tiny violated sister, my mutilated body, and my traumatized family.

516
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: Do you really think that my nice hotel room and

517
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: from my pictures and TV producers were what changed my

518
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: mind and made me sell out my mother and my family,

519
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 1: and we can't. The other tactic was that they acted

520
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: as if our case depended entirely on the guilt of

521
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: Tommy Lynn Cells. When she recanted, we were shocked, to

522
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: say the least, when she was also saying that it

523
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: was tom Melan. Selves. Did that dilute the recantation did

524
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: but complicate the case for you tremendously. It made our

525
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 1: job much harder. It handed the Attorney General and argument

526
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: that they should not have had. A few months later,

527
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: on June, Judge Daniel Greene hands down his nineteen page decision.

528
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: The second to last line reads, quote simply put, the

529
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: court does not find the recantation credible. Rodney will remain

530
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: in prison. I was a credible witness when I was

531
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 1: a traumatised child with multiple sabbotments, who had just observed

532
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: a heinous invasion and violation of her body and her family.

533
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: I was medicated and scared of men, and yet I

534
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 1: was more credible then than as a grown adult woman

535
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 1: who had a background not only in the Navy, but

536
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: as a Department defense contractor in the intelligence community, as

537
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: a woman with a degree in criminal justice, as a

538
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: person who lived very honestly and tried to do the

539
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: right thing, I was less credible. Did you feel, I

540
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 1: mean it made me more resolute. Yeah. I let them

541
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: know in many ways, I'm not going away. You're not

542
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: going to shut me up. Everything I love, I've lost,

543
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: I've met death, and I've been abused. I'm not afraid

544
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: of anything anymore. Bring it next time on The Real Killer.

545
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: I never exactly knew which Cells I would see when

546
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: I went into that visitation room when serial killer Tomulan

547
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: Cells is nearby, no one's safe. And one time, Yeah,

548
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: I swear the shape of his face changed, the color

549
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: of his eyes changed, and I realized at that moment

550
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: that I was seeing what is victim soul at the

551
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: last moment before they died. Is he Joanne's killer? Or

552
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 1: is it someone closer to home? He said that he

553
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: was in a house with a woman and two little girls,

554
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: and he said it was a bloody mess. The Real

555
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: Killer is a production of a y R Media and

556
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers

557
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen for A y R Media.

558
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: Written by me Leah Rothman, Senior Associate producer, Eric Newman.

559
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: Editing and sound design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered

560
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineering by esus C Mario Studio

561
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: engineering by Tom Weir and Kelly McGrew. Legal counsel for

562
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: A y R Media. Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for iHeart Radio,

563
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: Chandler Maze. If you're enjoying The Real Killer, tell your

564
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: friends about it and leave us a review on Apple

565
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts