Speaker 1: Hi, get everybody. I'm Dan Hord and thanks for downloading
Speaker 1: The Bengals Booth Podcast ba SO Pick Me Up edition,
Speaker 1: as I discussed the upcoming NFL Draft and other Bengals
Speaker 1: related topics with Pro Football Focus analyst Dalton Wasserman. The
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Speaker 1: a quick reminder that you can have the latest edition
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Speaker 1: computer by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts. It's the
Speaker 1: greatest thing since Matt Franco. I was in Las Vegas
Speaker 1: this week for a college basketball tournament and had the
Speaker 1: opportunity to see magician Matt Franco. If you haven't heard
Speaker 1: of him, he won America's Got Talent several years ago
Speaker 1: and now has his own show called Magic Reinvented nightly
Speaker 1: at The Link Hotel and casino on the Las Vegas Strip.
Speaker 1: I love magicians, and I have seen a lot of
Speaker 1: the big names over the years, and this was the
Speaker 1: best show I have ever seen with one how the
Speaker 1: hell did he do that? Illusion? After another? If you
Speaker 1: want to see what I mean, do a quick YouTube
Speaker 1: search for Matt Franco. That's Matt with one T. And
Speaker 1: if you travel to Las Vegas, by all means, go
Speaker 1: see the show. And after you do, tell me how
Speaker 1: he does the thing with the Ramen noodles. The NFL
Speaker 1: Draft is less than three weeks away, making it a
Speaker 1: great time to have Pro Football Focus analyst Dalton Wasserman
Speaker 1: on the show. In addition to writing about the NFL,
Speaker 1: Dalton co host the PFF College Football Show and has
Speaker 1: great insight on players in this year's draft that the
Speaker 1: Bengals are likely considering. He also caught my attention this
Speaker 1: week with an article that had the Bengals ranked number
Speaker 1: one of any team in the NFL. Taltony recently wrote
Speaker 1: about the NFL teams that have done the best and
Speaker 1: the worst in the first round of the draft of
Speaker 1: the last five years, and the Bengals came out on top.
Speaker 1: Now that time period begins with the Joe Burrow draft,
Speaker 1: so I guess we shouldn't be surprised, but what do
Speaker 1: you think of the five first round draft picks they've
Speaker 1: made since twenty twenty overall?
Speaker 2: I mean, look, when you look at the statistics behind it, right,
Speaker 2: it's going to come down to the fact that Joe
Speaker 2: Burrow and Jamar It's Chase are obviously two of the
Speaker 2: elite players in football. Right, So when you look at
Speaker 2: something like PFF war I had split things up between
Speaker 2: offensive and defensive PFF grades. At this time you're looking at, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: Burrow's been the second most valuable player per PFF four
Speaker 2: and football behind Patrick Mahomes, and Jamar Chase is one
Speaker 2: of the best receivers in football, so the stats are
Speaker 2: a little bit tilted. They obviously could do a little
Speaker 2: bit better job when it comes to drafting defensive players.
Speaker 2: And we'll see about Amarius Mims, you know, going into
Speaker 2: his second year on the offensive line and be a
Speaker 2: huge help if he you know, got a lot better
Speaker 2: this year at right tackle as well. I know that
Speaker 2: you know, last year had some injuries and things to
Speaker 2: start out, but I think it's exactly what represents the
Speaker 2: Bengals right now is their offense between Burrow and Chase
Speaker 2: and obviously te Higgins as well in the second round
Speaker 2: the same year as Burrow.
Speaker 3: They having a e leite.
Speaker 2: Offense right and they have even some holes there that
Speaker 2: they could still get better with with their interior offensive
Speaker 2: line and even the running game. But defensively, as we
Speaker 2: all know, you know, whether they keep Trey hendrickson or not,
Speaker 2: and however, the rest of the defense is going to
Speaker 2: be built with Al Golden running it. Now, they've got
Speaker 2: to get better. I think it's obviously the Bengals. We
Speaker 2: all know offensively they can beat anybody. Defensively lately, they
Speaker 2: can get beat by anybody. That's kind of how it works,
Speaker 2: and that's because they haven't had that much success throughout
Speaker 2: the draft.
Speaker 1: Let's circle back to last year's first round pick, A
Speaker 1: Marius Mims. I think it's been popular among analysts, a
Speaker 1: lot of PFF people that I've talked to in recent
Speaker 1: years to say that you don't necessarily have to be
Speaker 1: great on the offensive line. The key is not to
Speaker 1: have any huge liabilities. But I saw a clip from
Speaker 1: another podcast you were on recently where you made the
Speaker 1: case that elite pass protection is actually critical. Explain why
Speaker 1: very much so.
Speaker 2: I mean seven of the last eight Super Bowl champions
Speaker 2: have ranked inside the top seven of our pass blocking grade, right, So,
Speaker 2: it really it's coming down to more and more, especially
Speaker 2: with the talent you know of edge rushers and even
Speaker 2: defensive lineman. Now as you saw Philadelphia Eagles this year,
Speaker 2: you have to be able to protect your quarterback in big,
Speaker 2: big situations.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Teams with bad offensive lines are not winning Super Bowls anymore.
Speaker 2: It's extremely hard, both in the past game and the
Speaker 2: run game. Right we saw obviously the Eagles this year
Speaker 2: have that balance. They had that balance of Saquon Barkley
Speaker 2: in the run game too. But you talk about a
Speaker 2: team like the Bengals, who I believe had the third
Speaker 2: worst pass rushing grade as a team or sorry, pass
Speaker 2: blocking grade as a team this year, You're just not
Speaker 2: gonna win like that, right because you've got too many
Speaker 2: teams that have too good of a pass rush as
Speaker 2: well when you get into these big spots, when you
Speaker 2: get into conference title games, when you get into the
Speaker 2: Super Bowl. Right, So, I think it's something that really
Speaker 2: needs to be improved. And obviously, are you going to
Speaker 2: have five superstars, not necessarily, but if you're looking at
Speaker 2: having a really good offensive line, you probably need something
Speaker 2: like two superstars and then three solid players who can
Speaker 2: fill the other three spots and at least be, say
Speaker 2: by our standards, in the low sixty or in the
Speaker 2: high sixties or low seventies. You're talking about it's going
Speaker 2: to be hard to have holes on the offensive line,
Speaker 2: and you need to have better pass protection than they have.
Speaker 2: So for as much as the talk has been about
Speaker 2: the Bengals improving their defense, their on line, especially in
Speaker 2: the interior, still needs improvement if they're going.
Speaker 3: To go all the way.
Speaker 1: Of those last five first round draft picks, Miles Murphy
Speaker 1: is the guy who's probably the biggest question mark at
Speaker 1: this point. I guess you could say Dak Sill because
Speaker 1: of the injury, but he was playing really well before
Speaker 1: he got hurt last year. What did you think of
Speaker 1: Miles Murphy coming out of Clemson and should Bengals fans
Speaker 1: anticipate a big step forward this year if he gets
Speaker 1: more playing time.
Speaker 3: You would hope so.
Speaker 2: I mean, coming out of Clemson, he was very raw, right,
Speaker 2: You knew he always had a lot of potential at Clemson.
Speaker 2: Never quite hit that peak, and that's why he went
Speaker 2: later in the first round, more so because of his
Speaker 2: talent than his production. And I mean, they could really
Speaker 2: use they could really use that help off the edge now.
Speaker 2: And I know there's been a lot of talk about
Speaker 2: them drafting an edge rusher in the first round again
Speaker 2: because you know, Murphy's had a slow start during the
Speaker 2: first two years of his career. Plus you know, Trey
Speaker 2: Hendrickson obviously on the trade block. But you know, Murphy,
Speaker 2: it's tough to tell right now, just you just haven't
Speaker 2: seen a big impact through his first two years. He
Speaker 2: does have a lot of physical talent, but the polish
Speaker 2: has to be there. And I think this is a
Speaker 2: big make or break year for him as it comes to,
Speaker 2: you know, possibly being a starter, especially if Hendrickson gets traded.
Speaker 2: They've got to figure out we already know this entire
Speaker 2: defensive line, but Murphy has to play a much bigger
Speaker 2: role than he has the first two years.
Speaker 1: PFF analyst Dalton Loserman is our guest. I mentioned and
Speaker 1: then that recent article about the first round draft picks,
Speaker 1: you ranked the best and the worst teams. The Bengals
Speaker 1: came out on top. The Raiders came out last prior
Speaker 1: to the brock Bauers pick last year. It's almost comically
Speaker 1: bad how lousy Las Vegas is drafted in the first round.
Speaker 3: Yeah, even with brock Bauers involved.
Speaker 2: You look at again PFF War and they were number
Speaker 2: one on the bottom when it comes to PFF War
Speaker 2: from the first round picks over the last five years.
Speaker 2: And that's because obviously at Henry Ruggs who didn't work
Speaker 2: out and had all field issue, same thing with Damon
Speaker 2: Arnet at corner. Alex Bleatherwood was a reach at the time,
Speaker 2: and Tyreek Wilson just hasn't been able to put it
Speaker 2: together again. Kind of the same case as Miles Murphy.
Speaker 2: Miles Murphy where he's an extremely talented pass rusher but
Speaker 2: doesn't have the polish and hasn't put it all together yet. So,
Speaker 2: I mean, Bowers pick this past year obviously, but the
Speaker 2: Raiders and that's why I look, they're picking in the
Speaker 2: top eight again. They're still trying to figure it out,
Speaker 2: especially on defense and other than Max Crosby. This past year,
Speaker 2: the defense was a mess, right, especially in coverage, So
Speaker 2: they're really trying to figure that out. And I mean,
Speaker 2: you see it you know, I look at the bottom
Speaker 2: five teams here and you look at you know, the
Speaker 2: Raiders haven't had much success the last five years. The
Speaker 2: Tennessee Titans, and now they're picking first again because they
Speaker 2: haven't had success in this draft. The Rams are an
Speaker 2: exception because it was their first draft pick Jared Versus
Speaker 2: the first first round draft pick since twenty sixteen. And
Speaker 2: then the New Orleans Saints the same thing. They're picking
Speaker 2: in the top ten and slowly declining as a team
Speaker 2: because they haven't drafted well lately. So it's just, you know,
Speaker 2: you look at these teams, a lot of them that
Speaker 2: are in the top eight to ten in this year's draft,
Speaker 2: and you go, well, it makes a lot of sense
Speaker 2: that they're struggling and they're picking near the top again
Speaker 2: because they haven't drafted well in recent years.
Speaker 3: You need those young players.
Speaker 2: You need to find premier talent in the first round
Speaker 2: to continue to get better.
Speaker 1: Let's circle back to the Bengals offensive line, that blueprint
Speaker 1: that you kind of describe ideally with a couple of
Speaker 1: superstars and then three good guys as well. I don't
Speaker 1: know if Orlando Brown Junior and Amrius Mims are superstars
Speaker 1: at least not yet in Mems case, but they're very
Speaker 1: solid at tackle. I don't think anybody would dispute that
Speaker 1: Ted Kerris is a solid center. The guard spots are
Speaker 1: the question mark. They have added Lucas Patrick in free agency,
Speaker 1: but how high of a draft pick do you think
Speaker 1: the Bengals should use on a guard.
Speaker 2: I think there's a pretty good sweet spot on day
Speaker 2: two between pick number forty nine and in the second round,
Speaker 2: when you talk about maybe somebody like Donovan Jackson, if
Speaker 2: a from Ohio State, if he were available. Maybe I
Speaker 2: don't know that Tyler Booker will go that low, but
Speaker 2: if Tyler Booker were ever available in the second round
Speaker 2: at number forty.
Speaker 3: Nine, you'd be looking pretty good.
Speaker 2: And then at number eighty one in the third round,
Speaker 2: I think you're talking there a pretty good spot when
Speaker 2: you talk about maybe a Tate Ratledge from Georgia, Luke
Speaker 2: Candra from the you know locally here from the University
Speaker 2: of Cincinnati, I think would be a good help. I
Speaker 2: think rounds two through four for interior offensive lineman, whether
Speaker 2: it be a guard or center, that's really gonna be
Speaker 2: the sweet spot. I don't know that there's any first
Speaker 2: rounders that would be worth the seventeenth overall pick. I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say so unless they feel like there's somebody that
Speaker 2: could transfer from tackle to the interior. But more likely
Speaker 2: rounds two through four would be a good spot. I
Speaker 2: know this look, there's gonna be a lot of talk
Speaker 2: about defense and needing to build a defense, but they
Speaker 2: need to help on the interior offensive line. I think
Speaker 2: forty nine, eighty one and one nineteen, where the Bengals
Speaker 2: are looking at in rounds two through four, would be
Speaker 2: a good spot to be looking for interior offensive linemen.
Speaker 1: If they use one of those picks on a guard,
Speaker 1: is that enough? Brandon Sheriff is still out there in
Speaker 1: free agency? There are still some other names still out
Speaker 1: there in free agency. What do you think draft a starter,
Speaker 1: try to draft a starter and see what you've got,
Speaker 1: or also still go out there and get another bet.
Speaker 2: I think the more open competition that they have at
Speaker 2: both of those guard spots the better, right because right now,
Speaker 2: when you're looking at, you know, competition between Courtell Versa
Speaker 2: Vols and Cody Ford, Lucas Patrick, I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: it's tough. That's not the best crew. Even if you're
Speaker 2: talking about an open competition there, So would it even
Speaker 2: shock me if they drafted two interior guys, maybe even
Speaker 2: a late round center, maybe in the fifth or sixth round. Also,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't shock me that much. But I think post
Speaker 2: draft they should look at least one more veteran to
Speaker 2: see if they can improve among that group, because it's
Speaker 2: just not it's not enough, right and you still need
Speaker 2: to protect Joe Burrow. I know he can process better
Speaker 2: than almost any quarterback in football, but it would really
Speaker 2: help to have more of an open competition because we
Speaker 2: know these guys don't have the highest ceiling that.
Speaker 3: They have currently.
Speaker 1: PFF analyst Dalton Wasserman is our guest. You can follow
Speaker 1: him an X at PFF Underscore. Dalton, you published a
Speaker 1: mock draft earlier this week when it was the Bengals
Speaker 1: turn to pick seventeenth. Overall, there were several top edge
Speaker 1: defenders available, mikel Williams, Mike Green, James Pierce, and some others.
Speaker 1: There were good defensive tackles on the board can it Grant,
Speaker 1: Walter Nolan, Derek Harmon. Some of the top guards were there.
Speaker 1: Tyler Booker, who you mentioned earlier. Grey's Abel was still
Speaker 1: on the board, Michigan cornerback Well Johnson was on the board.
Speaker 1: You did choose an edge. It was a guy haven't
Speaker 1: mentioned yet. Combine star Shamar Stewart of Texas A and
Speaker 1: m Why was he your pick?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's tough right now, especially if whether
Speaker 2: or not they're going to sign Trey Hendrickson. I think Stuart,
Speaker 2: if Hendrickson were to stay, Stuart would be a really
Speaker 2: good compliment to Henderson, being that Hendrickson, I should say,
Speaker 2: being that he's the great pass rusher and Stuart is
Speaker 2: a really good run defender. Right there's at least very
Speaker 2: raw as a pass rusher, needs a lot of development there,
Speaker 2: but very good as a run defending compliment to Hendrickson
Speaker 2: if that were the case that he stayed. Now, I
Speaker 2: think there's also a part to me where Stuart is
Speaker 2: extremely talented and the Bengals almost I almost feel like
Speaker 2: they need to take that swing right if they're gonna
Speaker 2: have so much to the of the cap go you know,
Speaker 2: towards four P with Burrow, Chase Higgins, impossibly Hendrickson, they
Speaker 2: almost need to take that home run swing on a
Speaker 2: guy like Shamar Stewart who has an extremely high ceiling right,
Speaker 2: And you know, I think that's the thing is raising
Speaker 2: the ceiling on this.
Speaker 3: Defense right now.
Speaker 2: They could make they can make a safer pick if
Speaker 2: they could took if they took a Kenneth Grant or
Speaker 2: somebody like that, I think that's a safer pick. You
Speaker 2: know what you're getting in run defense. But it feels
Speaker 2: like the Bengals, I think they need to take a
Speaker 2: little bit more of a risk than some other teams
Speaker 2: right because they're just missing talent at certain spots on defense,
Speaker 2: especially now with Sam Hubbard retiring, not much to work
Speaker 2: with off the edge. And I know it's a similar
Speaker 2: pick to maybe a Miles Murphy and it hasn't worked
Speaker 2: so far through his first two years, but they need
Speaker 2: to take a gamble to really see, Okay, if we
Speaker 2: can get somebody to max out potential like Shamar Stewart,
Speaker 2: who might even go earlier than the seventeenth pick, they
Speaker 2: could raise the ceiling on this defense and really really
Speaker 2: changed how it can look on defense. Because they just
Speaker 2: to take a safer pick, I don't know how much
Speaker 2: better it can make their defense immediately, right, and they
Speaker 2: really need this window where they're going to have Burrow
Speaker 2: and Chase and Higgins all signed. They need to think
Speaker 2: an impact player, they need to take a chance on defense.
Speaker 2: That's why Stuart as a higher ceiling player, maybe higher
Speaker 2: risk Hyrieward I think makes a lot of sense at seventeen.
Speaker 1: I have been looking at a lot of mock drafts
Speaker 1: and I would say the three names most frequently mocked
Speaker 1: to the Bengals are Stuart, Green and Pierce. What do
Speaker 1: you think of those other two guys if they were
Speaker 1: to go than that direction?
Speaker 2: I think both of them make a lot of sense too,
Speaker 2: obviously a little bit smaller. And then I think the
Speaker 2: hardest part for me to project with the Bengals is
Speaker 2: which type of player that Al Golden would want. Is
Speaker 2: it going to be more of a stand up guy
Speaker 2: that matches, you know, along with Trey Hendrickson like they've
Speaker 2: had with lou Anarimo in past years, or is it
Speaker 2: going to be the classic defensive end more like Shamar Stewart.
Speaker 2: Because you're talking about very very different players, right, and
Speaker 2: they're all very talented players. But Stuart's a more classic
Speaker 2: defensive end, whereas Green and Pierce are lighter to forty
Speaker 2: five two hundred and fifty pounds stand up outside linebackers.
Speaker 2: Speed rushers for sure, especially James Pierce very much a
Speaker 2: speed rusher who is kind of raw. He's got a
Speaker 2: boatload of talent, but it's different than Stuart. You don't
Speaker 2: have as great a run defender. And obviously Mike Green
Speaker 2: also coming from Marshall, different level of competition, still a
Speaker 2: dominant player in the Sunbelt, but you're looking at it
Speaker 2: different type. So I think it depends on what Golden
Speaker 2: is looking for. It's hard to tell because I don't
Speaker 2: know that he's necessarily gonna run his defense exactly the
Speaker 2: same as he did at Notre Dame. It was very aggressive,
Speaker 2: whole lot of man coverage, whole lot of four man fronts.
Speaker 2: So's it's the hard part for me. That's the hard
Speaker 2: part predicting for me is the Bengals and how al
Speaker 2: Golden wants to run his defense and how much different
Speaker 2: that's gonna be with loulannar Erumo. I think if it
Speaker 2: was leu Ana Rumo still I think actually the pick
Speaker 2: would be Mike Green because he likes the stand up
Speaker 2: edge rushers. But I can't be one hundred percent sure
Speaker 2: on that. Those are two very good players, though Green
Speaker 2: and Pierce, extremely athletic, great get off. I have them
Speaker 2: as the second and third best edge in that order,
Speaker 2: Green and Pierce among the edge defenders. But it's gonna really,
Speaker 2: it's really hard to predict right now where Golden's gonna
Speaker 2: want to go, assuming they go with a defensive player
Speaker 2: with that first pick.
Speaker 1: You co host the PFF College Football Show, so I'm
Speaker 1: sure you've watched a lot of Notre Dame over the
Speaker 1: past few years. What stood out to you about Al
Speaker 1: Golden's defenses.
Speaker 2: The aggressiveness and the confidence, especially in coverage and in
Speaker 2: the secondary. This year they ran I believe, I want
Speaker 2: to say it was either number one or in the
Speaker 2: top three of the most man coverage in the country
Speaker 2: this past year. I believe close to sixty percent. It
Speaker 2: only ramped up during their you know, during their playoff run,
Speaker 2: and they were just absolutely lights out right. When you
Speaker 2: talk about guys like Ben Morrison, guys like the true
Speaker 2: freshman Leonard Moore on the outside that we're going to
Speaker 2: talk about over the next two years and get into
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty seven drafts, Xavior Watts at free safety
Speaker 2: is another one that's gonna get a lot of talk.
Speaker 2: I think he's a second round pick, and they just
Speaker 2: they just had such an aggressive and dominant secondary. That's
Speaker 2: what really jumped out to me. Now, I don't think
Speaker 2: they'll run quite as much man coverage in the NFL
Speaker 2: because you don't see teams that run sixty percent man
Speaker 2: coverage in the NFL very much, an adjustment like defensive
Speaker 2: coordinator Jeff Hafley made for the Green Bay Packers. He
Speaker 2: were in a similar system at Boston College. Runs more
Speaker 2: zone coverage in Green Bay, but still wants to get
Speaker 2: aggressive here and there. That's what really sticks out the
Speaker 2: most is the coverage and just the ability to shut
Speaker 2: teams down man to man. I think it's not gonna
Speaker 2: be quite as often in the NFL, and it's just
Speaker 2: not how that works. But I think that's where it's
Speaker 2: gonna start us with the coverage. And obviously, look, you
Speaker 2: need help obviously on the defensive line in the NFL.
Speaker 2: But if he can get that four man rush going
Speaker 2: maybe here and there, get blitz heavy and a lot
Speaker 2: of press man coverage, it's gonna look a little bit
Speaker 2: more aggressive. It's definitely gonna look different than lou An Aroma,
Speaker 2: who runs a lot of a lot of zone.
Speaker 1: They signed TJ. Slayton to be a run stopping defensive tackle.
Speaker 1: They re signed B. J. Hill last year. They drafted
Speaker 1: Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson, two more defensive tackles. How
Speaker 1: big of a need is defensive tackle at this point?
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it would be big to
Speaker 2: find a pass rush compliment to those guys. But I
Speaker 2: also think it's a deep defensive tackle class and that's
Speaker 2: something they could find in the middle rounds. The more
Speaker 2: I think about, you know, like you mentioned those two
Speaker 2: guys that they sign, plus Chris Jenkins as a second
Speaker 2: round pick last year, and plus you know again the
Speaker 2: change to a different style of defense, it's if it's
Speaker 2: going to be a four man defensive front instead of
Speaker 2: a lot of five man like lou Anrimo used to use.
Speaker 2: I don't think, I really don't think they're taking a
Speaker 2: defensive tackle in the first round.
Speaker 3: I think they're gonna look.
Speaker 2: More in the depth, more through the depth of it,
Speaker 2: maybe a third round type of guy like a Omar
Speaker 2: Norman Lot from Tennessee or an Annis Peebles who's more
Speaker 2: of a pass rush specialist than the run defender. Like
Speaker 2: the run defenders that they all have on this team already,
Speaker 2: but I do think it's still in need. I think
Speaker 2: an interior pass rusher to rotate in and play maybe
Speaker 2: twenty to twenty five snaps a game right now could
Speaker 2: be found on you know, early or late day two,
Speaker 2: or even even in the round four. When you talk
Speaker 2: about how deep this defensive tackle class is, I don't
Speaker 2: think they're going to do it first round, considering the
Speaker 2: resources they spent recently. I think that'll be more likely
Speaker 2: an edge player or possibly someone in the secondary. I
Speaker 2: still think it's possible that they could look there if
Speaker 2: there's someone they like, but it is a need. I
Speaker 2: think it's a need more towards a specialized pass rusher.
Speaker 1: More to come with Dalton Wasserman, including his take on
Speaker 1: the Trey Hendrickson situation. But first, a quick reminder that
Speaker 1: the Bengals Booth podcast is brought to you by paid Core,
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Speaker 1: is the official healthcare provider of the Bengals, Dalton Losserman
Speaker 1: is our guest, and that recent mock draft where you
Speaker 1: chose Shamar Stewart seventeenth overall. You posted a picture of
Speaker 1: a three round Bengals mock draft. You had linebacker Demetrius
Speaker 1: Knight out of South Carolina as their second round pick,
Speaker 1: and offensive lineman Tate Rutledge, whom you mentioned earlier out
Speaker 1: of Georgia is your third round pick. If that were
Speaker 1: the case, Stewart might be the least likely to start
Speaker 1: the first round pick because of the positional needs at
Speaker 1: linebacker and guard. Do you think that the Bengals need
Speaker 1: to come out of this draft with starters about those
Speaker 1: two positions?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say so at those two positions. I mean,
Speaker 2: especially if you're talking about now. Jermaine Pratt is still
Speaker 2: obviously on the ruster, but we've been assuming for a
Speaker 2: while that he's going to be gone. And Demitrius Knight
Speaker 2: in the second round is somebody I think with an
Speaker 2: established middle linebacker like Logan Wilson already on that defense,
Speaker 2: I think this is one of the teams that he
Speaker 2: could go to. He's a perfect week side that will linebacker.
Speaker 2: I think you talk about playing a similar position to say,
Speaker 2: like the way Drake Greenlaw played against or I should say,
Speaker 2: with Fred Warner in San Francisco. I think that's a
Speaker 2: nice fit for him to not have to handle. He's
Speaker 2: not a middle linebacker. Team that already has an established
Speaker 2: middle linebacker like Logan Wilson that could fit. He's got
Speaker 2: enough speed in coverage. He's not the most physical player,
Speaker 2: but he's very fast. He can run sideline the sideline,
Speaker 2: and he's very good in coverage.
Speaker 3: So I think.
Speaker 2: Linebacker if we're still assuming that Jermaine Pratt is getting
Speaker 2: either traded or cut at some point. I know they
Speaker 2: signed orin Berks, but he's more of a third guy
Speaker 2: that can rotate in or give you a spot start.
Speaker 2: I think Knight could immediately start as that week side guy,
Speaker 2: that new week side guy next to Logan Wilson.
Speaker 3: And then at guard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Tate Ratledge in the third round would
Speaker 2: be a perfect fit. I think actually there's a chance
Speaker 2: he could immediately start. Extremely athletic, extremely clean pass protector,
Speaker 2: and I think that has to be the priority when
Speaker 2: you're talking about a team built around Joe Burrow and
Speaker 2: a decent run blocker, right, I mean that, Look, the
Speaker 2: Bengals had one of the worst run blocking grades for
Speaker 2: us in the entire league, so anything's better than what
Speaker 2: they had last year. I think Ratledge would walk in
Speaker 2: and start, most likely at right guard.
Speaker 1: Right away, you mentioned Luke Candra, earlier Cincinnati kid who
Speaker 1: wound up his college career at the University of Cincinnati.
Speaker 1: Similar story for running back Corey Kiner started out at
Speaker 1: LSU finished. Did you see those are probably the two
Speaker 1: Bearcats most likely to get picked. If they're not drafted,
Speaker 1: there's certainly going to be in NFL camps. What do
Speaker 1: you think of Candra and Kiner?
Speaker 2: Candra, I think is somewhere between a third and fourth
Speaker 2: round pick. I think he's very consistent, plays a little high.
Speaker 2: He's a taller player, I think it's six five sixty
Speaker 2: six as a guard, but a good athlete, a fundamentally
Speaker 2: sound player, especially in zone blocking schemes. And I don't
Speaker 2: know that he necessarily is the best fit in as
Speaker 2: far as run scheme goes for the Bengals. But even then, look,
Speaker 2: they need anything they could get if they took him,
Speaker 2: you know, in the in the third round there at
Speaker 2: eighty one, or even if they found a chance to
Speaker 2: get him in the fourth round. I still think he'd
Speaker 2: be a nice talented pick. I think I think he's
Speaker 2: a possible starter, maybe not necessarily first year, but possibly
Speaker 2: if a team were thin. I think about the Seattle
Speaker 2: Seahawks as well for him. But I think somewhere in
Speaker 2: that mid to l eight to fourth round range, I
Speaker 2: think Candra is going. And then Kinder's a guy in
Speaker 2: a deep running back class who hasn't been talked about
Speaker 2: a whole whole lot, right. I mean, there's so much
Speaker 2: money backs that we've talked about. I think because of its,
Speaker 2: you know, being such a thicker class, he could be
Speaker 2: more of a fifth or six round pick. But he
Speaker 2: was one of the leaders in college football this past
Speaker 2: year in miss tackles force. He runs hard, he's got
Speaker 2: good vision, he likes to get north and south quickly.
Speaker 2: I think you're gonna see him more as a mid
Speaker 2: to late day three pick, but still possibly a solid
Speaker 2: early down runner. I think there's a little bit missing
Speaker 2: as far as the receiving game the passing game, and
Speaker 2: that's in part because Cincinnati wasn't the best passing team
Speaker 2: and didn't design a whole lot for him.
Speaker 3: But I think when you talk about an.
Speaker 2: Early down complimentary, just aggressive, hard hitting back, I think
Speaker 2: this definitely. I think Corey Kiner is getting drafted. I
Speaker 2: think he's just somebody who hasn't gotten mentioned a whole
Speaker 2: lot because there's so many backs that are going in
Speaker 2: this draft.
Speaker 3: But he's one of those guys. I keep saying it.
Speaker 2: I think through even the fifth or sixth round, there's
Speaker 2: going to be good running backs drafted, and he's one
Speaker 2: of them. On the back end of that, somebody's gonna
Speaker 2: take him. He's going to get a chance to make
Speaker 2: a roster.
Speaker 1: Tal Wasserman from Pro Football Focus is our guest. The
Speaker 1: Bengals and Trey Hendrickson at the moment do not appear
Speaker 1: to be close to a deal. What should the Bengals
Speaker 1: do in your opinion?
Speaker 2: I mean, personally, I would find a way to negotiate
Speaker 2: and keep him. I mean, he's by far the best
Speaker 2: defensive player on this team. He's one of the elite
Speaker 2: pass rushers in football. And I mean even with him,
Speaker 2: the defense obviously is kind of a mess and they're
Speaker 2: trying to figure it out and figure out this draft.
Speaker 2: But to lose an elite pass rusher like that then
Speaker 2: you're just talking about starting from scratch on this defense,
Speaker 2: and it just seems it seems tough to think that
Speaker 2: the negotiations are so hard, not get it, trying to
Speaker 2: work the salary cap and all of that, but it's
Speaker 2: just to lose a guy of that caliber. Would I
Speaker 2: think it's devastating because then you look at their defensive
Speaker 2: line and you go, Okay, now we can't rush the
Speaker 2: passer either, and what do we do with this first
Speaker 2: round pick, and what do we do with this entire draft?
Speaker 2: And obviously if they trade him, they'll have more resources,
Speaker 2: but it's very, very hard to imagine within the next
Speaker 2: two years that you would get another player as productive
Speaker 2: as Trey Hendrickson and what he's done for his entire
Speaker 2: career with the Bengals and really his entire career in
Speaker 2: general with the Saints and the Bengals. Players like him
Speaker 2: don't come around that often, right, especially the way in
Speaker 2: what he's developed into and leading the league in sacks.
Speaker 2: So I would still try to find a way to
Speaker 2: keep him. I mean, it's very hard to think that.
Speaker 2: You know, it's that thing where you just go, well,
Speaker 2: if he's gone, it's not like you're going to find
Speaker 2: any better, anything better in the immediate.
Speaker 3: Right, it does.
Speaker 2: You're certainly a better team with Trey Hendrickson on your roster.
Speaker 2: It's it's hard to watch the fact you know the
Speaker 2: negotiations and how it's been lately and how good he is,
Speaker 2: and yet they don't feel like the value matches up
Speaker 2: with it. I know he's going to be thirty one
Speaker 2: years old, but he's still got a few years left
Speaker 2: I think as an elite pass rusher, and I would
Speaker 2: be trying to keep him with everything.
Speaker 1: I have, so you don't have much concern about a
Speaker 1: big drop off after thirty for pass rushers.
Speaker 2: I think. I think I would say he's got another
Speaker 2: three solid years in him as a pass rusher, right,
Speaker 2: And he's not an elite run defender anyway. We have
Speaker 2: him usually in the mid to high sixty, which is
Speaker 2: okay as a run defender. But I think definitely the
Speaker 2: way he works and the mileage isn't quite as much
Speaker 2: as you might think, because he did play more of
Speaker 2: a part time role earlier in his career with the
Speaker 2: Saints and then really took on a featured role. And
Speaker 2: look past rushers that we see a lot of them
Speaker 2: all the time now that are solid into their mid thirties, right,
Speaker 2: even if the role maybe declines a little bit. But
Speaker 2: if I had to take a guess, I think he
Speaker 2: still got probably three more years as a really really good,
Speaker 2: close to elite pass rusher. I think that could happen.
Speaker 2: And he works. He works his butt off. I mean, honestly,
Speaker 2: I'm actually him. You know, he went to Florida Atlantic.
Speaker 2: I was actually a Florida Atlantic alumni as well, So
Speaker 2: you know, I have people that have known Hendrickson since
Speaker 2: he was nineteen years old, and even back then, he
Speaker 2: was always the hardest worker. He was just a different player,
Speaker 2: even at that school that you know. It's gotten some
Speaker 2: players to the NFL too, Devin Singletary and as He's
Speaker 2: Al Shier and those guys. But anytime I talked to
Speaker 2: someone in FAU that new trade, they were like, Hey,
Speaker 2: he's different, He's a different animal. He works his butt off.
Speaker 2: He's just constantly at it. The dream is to be
Speaker 2: dominant in the NFL, and I don't think that's gonna
Speaker 2: stop no matter what they pay him or how old
Speaker 2: he gets. He's really gonna squeeze everything he has out
Speaker 2: of his career. So I would say, honestly, I think
Speaker 2: at least as a pass rusher, he's got another good
Speaker 2: three years in him.
Speaker 1: At least the Bengals kept your bar Chase. They kept
Speaker 1: t Higgins. We're obviously excited about that. In Cincinnati. Who
Speaker 1: won free agency?
Speaker 2: I think about I think New England. You look at
Speaker 2: what New England did with their defense, and I know
Speaker 2: they got it. They still need to work on the offense,
Speaker 2: and that's where I would be going heavy in this
Speaker 2: draft is figuring out the offensive side of the ball
Speaker 2: around Green around Drake May. I think New England's won
Speaker 2: where Mike Rabel's really building that identity with all the
Speaker 2: money they spent on defense. And I'll give you the
Speaker 2: other one. I really like the Minnesota Vikings. I mean,
Speaker 2: you look at all the needs that they had. They
Speaker 2: had needs at corner. They found a way to re
Speaker 2: sign Byron Murphy. I think Isaiah Rodgers is an underrated signing.
Speaker 2: They got Harrison Smith for another year at safety, They
Speaker 2: filled in the defensive tackle spot, got some pass rushers
Speaker 2: down there that they needed. Interior offensive line was a
Speaker 2: big need and they got two guys from the Colts
Speaker 2: and Ryan Kelly and Will Fries and I think, especially
Speaker 2: when you look at that pass protection, you look at
Speaker 2: their offensive line, and now JJ McCarthy's most likely to start,
Speaker 2: they are in position to support him as about as
Speaker 2: possibly about as well as they possibly can. Right when
Speaker 2: you talk about and you know and Ben Johnson is
Speaker 2: doing the same thing in Chicago.
Speaker 3: That's another one.
Speaker 2: With all the trades and signings they made on the
Speaker 2: offensive line, those are two teams. I look at the
Speaker 2: Bears and the Vikings that you look at their young quarterback,
Speaker 2: look at their supporting cast, and you go, man, they're
Speaker 2: building it right if you're gonna have a young kid
Speaker 2: out there who and Williams you could almost argue is
Speaker 2: now in his real first year because it was such
Speaker 2: a disaster last year with the Bears. Where you go, man,
Speaker 2: if they can't succeed in that situation, then it'll really
Speaker 2: be on them. But they've made those situations a lot better.
Speaker 2: Minnesota sticks out, the Bears stick out, New England sticks out,
Speaker 2: and I'll give you one more. They didn't make a
Speaker 2: ton of moves, but I think they made the right
Speaker 2: moves at Denver Broncos, getting Drake Greenlaw, getting talent know
Speaker 2: Hufanga and getting Evan Ingram. Those are three players I
Speaker 2: really like them getting that they needed in very specific spots.
Speaker 2: I think the Broncos are a team to really look
Speaker 2: out for again this coming season.
Speaker 1: Who is the Steelers starting quarterback next year? Mason Rudolph,
Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers or TBA.
Speaker 2: I think and everything it sounds like from the Rooneyes
Speaker 2: and Mike Tomlin obviously is keeping it keeping everything tight.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be Aaron Rodgers. I think
Speaker 2: we're just waiting on We're just waiting on Rodgers to
Speaker 2: make his final decision as always and get the actual
Speaker 2: negotiations going. And I think, honestly, it would be much
Speaker 2: easier for the Steelers for now, because of where they're
Speaker 2: drafting and the lack of depth in this draft class
Speaker 2: to just take Aaron Rodgers. Maybe you take a mid
Speaker 2: round quarterback instead, But I think it would be very
Speaker 2: dangerous for them if Rogers, say were to retire, and
Speaker 2: now they're looking pick number twenty one, not entirely sure
Speaker 2: what they're doing. Is it a trade up possibly for
Speaker 2: Shador Sanders? Is it Jack's and Dart, who I think
Speaker 2: is very polarizing when it comes to how good he
Speaker 2: is and how good he could be in the league.
Speaker 2: Is it somebody in the middle rounds? Is it Mason
Speaker 2: because I mean, look, Mason Rudolph, Let's face it, that's
Speaker 2: a backup, right, He's a backup. If they if they
Speaker 2: start this season with Mason Rudolph as the starter, I
Speaker 2: think they're in trouble. And I know they got Metcalf
Speaker 2: and they have Pickens and Friarmouth, but it makes Rudolph's
Speaker 2: a backup. They cannot walk in with him as the starter.
Speaker 2: So I think the most likely scenarios it's Aaron Rodgers.
Speaker 2: Maybe they draft somebody in the middle rounds to sit
Speaker 2: behind him and learn a little bit behind him and Rudolph,
Speaker 2: But I would assume Rogers is.
Speaker 1: The guy Colorado just had its pro day. Is Travis
Speaker 1: Hunter a wide receiver or a cornerback in the NFL s.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, I'm I'm the believer that he's so
Speaker 2: special that he could play a significant amount of both.
Speaker 2: I've been I've been one of and I know it's rare.
Speaker 2: It's not even just rares, it's unprecedented. I really have
Speaker 2: a belief that he could do something unprecedented late like
Speaker 2: place seventy to eighty percent on both sides of the ball,
Speaker 2: because I mean what he did at Colorado, he was
Speaker 2: an elite player on both sides. That's why he won
Speaker 2: the Heisman Trophy. You know, I could argue that he's
Speaker 2: the best receiver and the best corner in this draft,
Speaker 2: and that's both in one body. I've had a hard
Speaker 2: time picking one or the other. I really have because
Speaker 2: I think he's that special. I think he could do
Speaker 2: a significant amount of both, and I understand the logic
Speaker 2: both ways. Look when you talk about a guy who's
Speaker 2: been compared at receiver to you know, athletically, to Justin
Speaker 2: Jefferson or Odell Beckham junior, you go, oh wow, well
Speaker 2: that's that's pretty darn good company. But then you look
Speaker 2: at him play corner, and honestly, he's got the potential
Speaker 2: to be the best corner in football. That's how good
Speaker 2: he is on that side of the ball, especially with
Speaker 2: his ball skills and the way he uses his offensive
Speaker 2: knowledge on defense right and how that all works. So
Speaker 2: I think he's special. I really believe he could be somebody.
Speaker 2: To me, I would play him both ways until he can't,
Speaker 2: until something doesn't go right, whether he can't stay healthy
Speaker 2: enough or it just doesn't work at the NFL level.
Speaker 2: I would give him a true shot both ways.
Speaker 1: All right, Final question for PFF analyst Dalton Washerman, shake
Speaker 1: your time. I was just in Las Vegas for a
Speaker 1: college basketball tournament. The Bengals Super Bowl odds are the
Speaker 1: sixth highest of any team. Too high, too low, or
Speaker 1: just about right.
Speaker 2: I'm those might be a little high because I need
Speaker 2: to see the improvements on their defense and a little
Speaker 2: more balance on offense. Now, obviously the floor is there.
Speaker 2: If you have Burrow and Chase and Higgins and they're
Speaker 2: all healthy, you have a shot. They went nine to
Speaker 2: eight this past year, knowing there was four or five
Speaker 2: games that came down to the last minute or down
Speaker 2: to the very end, and they just couldn't get a stop.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: They know they could compete with anybody. It's just it's
Speaker 2: a matter of this defense, though, and it's very, very
Speaker 2: hard to you know, Like I mentioned the two things.
Speaker 2: The pass protection, especially in the interior, it needs to
Speaker 2: be a lot better. They need to figure out how
Speaker 2: they can fix up this offensive line. And obviously the
Speaker 2: defense needs to be a whole lot better. Right, I mean,
Speaker 2: you just you're not going to have, you know, a
Speaker 2: team that is twenty second in our defensive grading last season,
Speaker 2: and earlier in the year was worse than that. They
Speaker 2: were in the bottom five, and then they got better
Speaker 2: the last five six weeks. Got to it's gotta be
Speaker 2: significantly better. So six might be a little high. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of there's a lot to fix. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's it's hard to even say that they're, you know,
Speaker 2: in the argument to be the leader, the favorite in
Speaker 2: that division, right you know when you talk about Pittsburgh
Speaker 2: is still really good and Baltimore is obviously still gonna
Speaker 2: be really good. So that's really the first goals. They
Speaker 2: have to find a way to win that division first
Speaker 2: and then see where it goes. Their defense has to
Speaker 2: get a lot better. I get that Burrow raises the odds,
Speaker 2: but six might be a little bit high for me.
Speaker 1: You didn't mention Cleveland as a team that they'll have
Speaker 1: to beat in the AFC North.
Speaker 3: That's that's a tougher one. They're certainly not nearly as
Speaker 3: close as six.
Speaker 2: I mean, picking second overall the Browns, that's that's tough,
Speaker 2: and they have a tough decision with that second overall
Speaker 2: pick too, because I mean there's been a lot of
Speaker 2: talk about Abdul Carter, possibly a quarterback, possibly Travis Hunter.
Speaker 2: But I think the Browns and I think that, you know,
Speaker 2: Jimmy Haslam recently admitted this too. Is where it's just
Speaker 2: they need to get Watson off the books. They're really
Speaker 2: not going to be successful. And until they can get
Speaker 2: Watson off the books, maybe they'll have a quarterback this year,
Speaker 2: maybe it'll be next year, but they need to just
Speaker 2: get through this era and flush it out and reset
Speaker 2: the salary cap and figure it out from there. I
Speaker 2: think the Browns. I think the Browns is going to
Speaker 2: be in for a tough year and we could see
Speaker 2: him picking top three to five again next year.
Speaker 1: Dalton, you have been prolific in cranking out interesting content
Speaker 1: of late on Pro Football Focus. I've enjoyed looking at it.
Speaker 1: I'm sure that will continue up until the draft and beyond.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you joining us on the podcast and
Speaker 1: keep up the good work.
Speaker 3: Appreciate you, Dan, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: That's going to do it for this episode of the
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Speaker 1: I'm Dan Horde and thank you for listening to the
Speaker 1: Bengals Booth podcast.