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Speaker 1: Cool Zon Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to cool people who did cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: You're a weekly reminder that when bad things happen, there's

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Speaker 2: people who do good things in response, and sometimes over

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Speaker 2: throw governments or at least come very close. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Margaret Kiljoy, and with me today is my guest Katie Stole. Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hi, how are you very happy to be back? I'm good,

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Speaker 3: I'm fine. I'm alive.

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Speaker 2: That's better than well, everyone listening can probably say, except

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Speaker 2: less you're an AI scraping this, in which case I

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Speaker 2: can't blame you. You're not alive, but I blame you

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Speaker 2: ever made you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely blame them. It's not your fault.

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Speaker 2: That's true. Katie. I was like, what do I credit

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Speaker 2: you as? And I just wrote of the news shows?

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Speaker 2: Because you have all of the news shows, and they're all.

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Speaker 3: You have all the news shows.

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Speaker 2: What are some of your news shows?

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Speaker 3: Well, we've got some more news, and we've got even

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Speaker 3: more news, and then the other version of even more news.

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Speaker 3: We've got three shows week, folks over at some more

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Speaker 3: news channel, YouTube and podcasts and other things cooking.

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Speaker 2: See. I'm very grateful you keep up with actual news

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Speaker 2: for a living and that is great, and I don't

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Speaker 2: know how I would handle that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the jury's still out on how I'm handling it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's a lot. Sometimes I'm also very lucky. Anytime I

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Speaker 3: start to feel like my head's gonna fall off my

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Speaker 3: body from stress or you know, just overloaded with news,

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Speaker 3: I remember that I work with some of my favorite

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Speaker 3: people and we record podcasts and there's this huge community

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Speaker 3: of people that listen and interact and I'm very grateful

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Speaker 3: for it. But yeah, it's a lot, and you have

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Speaker 3: to be very mindful, or I do. I don't know

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Speaker 3: how other people handle it. I look at other comparable

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Speaker 3: shows or people over the Majority Report who are live

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Speaker 3: streaming every day, and they're so on top of every

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Speaker 3: single piece. And no, it's too much, because I need

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Speaker 3: to create space. I live in the mountain. I go

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Speaker 3: outside and try to just forget about everything when I

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Speaker 3: can for an hour or two.

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Speaker 2: That actually, that seems like how I would do it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I also live in the mountains, so this

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Speaker 2: is a very relatable thing. Have I ever explained to

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Speaker 2: you the drudgery pyramid of job complaining? No, but please do, Okay.

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Speaker 2: I discovered this pyramid when someone I was talking to

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Speaker 2: was complaining about the book that they were writing, and

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Speaker 2: their name was on the book and they got paid

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Speaker 2: a decent living wage to write this book. And at

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Speaker 2: the time, I was getting paid five thousand dollars to

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Speaker 2: ghost write a trashy heterosexual romance and I was living

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Speaker 2: in a pond house where I paid like fifty dollars

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Speaker 2: a month rent, and that's how I afforded to live

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Speaker 2: off of this terrible salary writing trashy romance novels about sportsmen.

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Speaker 2: And so I didn't want to hear this person complain

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Speaker 2: to me about their job. And then I would go downstairs.

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Speaker 2: I'd make myself my like vegan mac and cheese and

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Speaker 2: sit in front of the TV, and you know, think

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Speaker 2: about how hard my job was. And I would try

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Speaker 2: to complain about it to my roommate who was waiting

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Speaker 2: to go to the graveyard shift at sheets, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, yeah, oh, you can only complain laterally or

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Speaker 2: up in the hierarchy of drudgery.

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Speaker 3: It's true, I think, I mean, I like the phrase,

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Speaker 3: I like thinking about it in that way and then

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Speaker 3: just throwne mental health and satisfaction in life. I think

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Speaker 3: it's important to acknowledge the way that something sucks in

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Speaker 3: the way that you want it to change, but also

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Speaker 3: the ways so but it's both of It's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I get to complain about it the news fucking.

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Speaker 2: So we get to complain to each other. We have

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Speaker 2: the same job. Only the thing that I'm going to

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Speaker 2: say is that I live in the radical history as

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Speaker 2: entertainment minds and not the news minds. So I don't

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Speaker 2: have the first clue about the real world, which is

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Speaker 2: why I'm going to explain to you that we're gonna

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Speaker 2: be talking about some shift from two thousand years ago. Again,

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Speaker 2: that's the kick I'm on right now. We are going

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Speaker 2: to be talking about the BCEE, the before career common era.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know or care.

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Speaker 3: Well, guess what, I know nothing about this, Sarah. So

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Speaker 3: I'm like a brand new babe for you to give

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Speaker 3: the information too.

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Speaker 2: This is like when I come on your news show,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know, man, I think fascism is bad,

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Speaker 2: and You're like, here's the ins and outs of it,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, that sounds terrible. We should do something

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Speaker 2: about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But what makes you so good in that format is,

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Speaker 3: first off, you do know enough about what's going on,

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Speaker 3: but then you give perspectives. That's always really important, right.

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Speaker 3: It's a good yin yang thing.

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Speaker 2: And what's so interesting is that all of this shit

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Speaker 2: I've been studying about the ancient world for these past

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Speaker 2: couple months of podcasts, it's just all a series of

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Speaker 2: nothing ever changes.

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Speaker 3: That's what I predict from this episode is that I'm

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Speaker 3: going to be like yep, and so it goes and

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Speaker 3: so it goes again. It's the first thing I learned

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Speaker 3: in poly sci in college.

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Speaker 2: Yep who. It got into my head about three months

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Speaker 2: ago that I wanted to research the druids. That's not

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Speaker 2: today's topic. That was my topic a couple months ago,

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Speaker 2: the ancient folks of Celtic Western Europe. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: do it as the Halloween episode, but then I started

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Speaker 2: learning more about all the people fucking up the Roman Empire,

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Speaker 2: and I wanted to know more about Roman Greece and

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Speaker 2: all that ancient shit so they could read more about

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Speaker 2: people fucking them up. And now I am so deep

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Speaker 2: in this rabbit hole and I don't want to come

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Speaker 2: out because the regular world is full of fascism and

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Speaker 2: so is this world. But this week we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about a guy. We're actually not gonna talk about

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Speaker 2: this guy very much, but he's like the touchstone. He's

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Speaker 2: going to be in the title of the episode. A

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Speaker 2: guy whose name has rung out through the millennia, A

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Speaker 2: guy who we know very little about. His name is Spartacus.

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Speaker 3: Spartacuss you heard about Spartacus. I am Spartakiss Right, there's that.

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Speaker 2: So I haven't actually watched I was like thinking about

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Speaker 2: watching the movie, but I did not actually watch the

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Speaker 2: movie prep for this. But Okay, that idea, which I

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Speaker 2: again haven't seen, the idea of everyone being like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm this guy is actually pretty fitting because one of

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Speaker 2: the big things that's going to come up is that

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Speaker 2: the Roman historians from roughly this era two thousand years

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Speaker 2: ago are all in on the big Man of history theory,

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Speaker 2: and so they're like, Spartacus did this, and Spartacus did that,

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Speaker 2: And I suspect Spartacus would have been the first person

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Speaker 2: to tell you being like, I didn't do that shit.

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Speaker 2: I was just a general like we did this, We

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Speaker 2: made all this stuff happen. Right, You heard much about Spartacus.

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Speaker 3: Literally, nothing I was going to say, do I interject

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Speaker 3: and say, I don't know, honestly, just the fact that

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Speaker 3: you're saying people were claiming I did this, misattributing things

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Speaker 3: to him potentially, or I have no idea, no information

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Speaker 3: at all, except for the phrase I am Spartacus from

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Speaker 3: a movie I haven't seen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a guy named Spartacus, and he was

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Speaker 2: an enslaved glade and ancient Italy and the Roman era

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Speaker 2: of Italy during the tail end of the Roman Republic

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Speaker 2: a couple of decades before became the Roman Empires. This

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Speaker 2: is all going to happen in like seventy BCE. And

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Speaker 2: he was part of this big slave uprising. He wasn't

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Speaker 2: even the general of it. He was one of five

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Speaker 2: generals of it. And this is one of the largest

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Speaker 2: slave uprisings I've ever read about that either had seventy

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Speaker 2: thousand people or half a million people in open revolt.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And big differences between those numbers.

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Speaker 3: Big differences between those numbers. But those are also both

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Speaker 3: big numbers, Yeah, they absolutely are, but big discrepancy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, especially like it's a thing that's come up

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Speaker 2: on a couple of these episodes in the past. There's

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Speaker 2: like awful shit in history where like one hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: people die or get murdered or whatever. And you're like,

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Speaker 2: but that's that's a huge chunk of the people in

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Speaker 2: the world. But you're talking about a world in which

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Speaker 2: there's I don't have the numbers in front of me,

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Speaker 2: there's like three hundred four hundred million people in the

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Speaker 2: entire world.

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Speaker 3: A really interesting point that I'd never thought of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you have to account for that significant percentage of the population.

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Speaker 2: The entire world had the population of the United States currently.

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Speaker 2: You know. Wow, And so half a million people in

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Speaker 2: open revolt.

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Speaker 3: Is a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Big thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, big deal.

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Speaker 2: He was just one of the military leaders of this rebellion,

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Speaker 2: and he's the one that historians stuck all the credit

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Speaker 2: to because Roman historians were into this great man of

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Speaker 2: history theory. I always knew I was going to do

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Speaker 2: a Spartacus episode, but I didn't know the angle because

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Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, no, another guy who did a

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Speaker 2: war whatever. And I'm a bit interested in him, but

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Speaker 2: I'm much more interested. I'm interested in the little outlaw

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Speaker 2: republic that sprung up during the rebellion that tens or

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Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of people lived in for years they

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Speaker 2: collectively created a society without political authority, without money, and

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Speaker 2: without sexual violence.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Those were like the three things about them.

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Speaker 3: The utopia existed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's still like some fucked up stuff.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure there were things, of course there were.

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Speaker 2: We are humans, yeah, probably we're doing human sacrifice. But

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Speaker 2: everyone was in the time.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was in vogue. You can't judge by

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Speaker 3: today's standard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a real it's a real one of

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Speaker 2: those moments.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure, but also you really can't judge by today's standards.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 2: No, it just doesn't make any sense if you try to.

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Speaker 2: It's just like nothing thousands of years. Yeah. And this

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Speaker 2: was during what was called the Third Servile War in Rome,

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Speaker 2: which I had never heard of because I am absolutely

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Speaker 2: not one of those girls who thinks about the Roman

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Speaker 2: Empire once a week.

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Speaker 3: This kind of same. Your Roman Empire is the Roman Empire.

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Speaker 2: No, my Roman Empire is the Spanish Civil War or

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Speaker 2: maybe the Pairs Commune.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I have avoided learning about this time period because I

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Speaker 2: hate the people who are really into this time period,

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Speaker 2: except you, dear listener, I love you. And the Third

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Speaker 2: Servile War was from seventy three to seventy BCE. Most

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Speaker 2: historians will say that this uprising failed dramatically, and it's true,

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Speaker 2: this is like practically a free space for cool people

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Speaker 2: bingo as everyone dies. But I declare that they won.

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Speaker 2: It's true that tens of thousands of them died in battle,

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Speaker 2: and that six thousand of them wound up crucified along

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Speaker 2: the highway. Yeah, the ancient world was a nightmare. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but they accomplished three specific things. One, pretty much any

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Speaker 2: one of them who wanted to escape back home to

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Speaker 2: wherever they'd been captured from had the chance. Two, they

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Speaker 2: laid the foundations for a free society that lasted at

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Speaker 2: least a decade longer than the rebellion. And three And

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Speaker 2: I can't prove cause and effect here, but I can

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Speaker 2: tell you that in the wake of this uprising, the

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Speaker 2: entire agricultural of Rome shifted away from slave labor and

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Speaker 2: towards tenant farming.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And that also like kind of creates world peace in

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Speaker 2: a way. But we'll get to all that. So they

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Speaker 2: didn't burn Rome to the ground, they didn't successfully abolish

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Speaker 2: all slavery in the known world, but they did free

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Speaker 2: themselves and leave a lasting legacy that freed uncountable others.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm going to say that they won.

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Speaker 3: I will go along with you on that. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 3: they did win if you give it the right parameters,

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Speaker 3: right exactly.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm all about change the wind conditions to

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Speaker 2: include what you're doing, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. But also it made significant change. We can point

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Speaker 3: to it, you can see success in it, whether or

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Speaker 3: not it was lasting or you know, exactly what was

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Speaker 3: intended as a different conversation totally.

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Speaker 2: It also echoed out throughout millennia. It's also very likely

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Speaker 2: that they called the political system of what they built anarchia. Wait,

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Speaker 2: it's very likely. It's very likely. And I'm going to

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Speaker 2: talk about why.

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Speaker 3: That's pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so yeah, I want to talk about them.

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Speaker 2: But first, even before context ads come. That is the context. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the context in which we work.

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Speaker 3: That's great. We love them, we love to see it.

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Speaker 2: They're all great, except online gambling that's bad. But all

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Speaker 2: the rest of them are good. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I won't even question that.

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Speaker 2: And we're back. We're back, Okay. So I was at

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Speaker 2: a bookstore the other day and I saw an intriguing

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Speaker 2: book in the history section, and it was a new

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Speaker 2: book out from Pluto Press. It's called Radical Antiquity, and

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Speaker 2: it's by a scholar named Christopher B. Zeichman. And this

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Speaker 2: book is like anyone can read it, you know, pop anthropology, whatever,

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Speaker 2: pop history. All of this guy's other books. Just to

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Speaker 2: give you this guy's cred, I'm going to read you

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Speaker 2: the name of his other books because I think it

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Speaker 2: gives us cred. We've got recovering an undomesticated apostle essays

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Speaker 2: on the legacy of Paul. Oh, We've got Queer Readings

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Speaker 2: of the Centurion at Capernam, which I don't know it is.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't know what that is.

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Speaker 2: We've got the Database of military inscriptions and papyri of

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Speaker 2: early Roman Palestine.

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Speaker 3: Oh, these are page turners.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely. And we've got the Roman army in

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Speaker 2: the New Testament. So this is a scholar's scholar. That's

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Speaker 2: my like interesting defense of my It's not the only source.

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Speaker 2: That's one of a bunch, but yeah, this guy.

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Speaker 3: Knows what they're doing and wrote a more accessible book

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Speaker 3: that we are going to benefit from. My going to imagine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm so excited about this book. I saw

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Speaker 2: this book and I was like, was this made just

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Speaker 2: for me. It was made for you. Yeah, And I

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Speaker 2: was reading this week and I came across something that

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Speaker 2: kind of blew my mind about the history of the

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Speaker 2: word anarchy or in this case, anarchia. I have talked

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Speaker 2: a lot about the history of anarchism on the show.

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Speaker 2: I've probably subjected you to the history of anarchism on

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Speaker 2: this show. I can't remember, and usually I'm tracing it

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Speaker 2: back to about the nineteenth century, or I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: how ancient and non Western societies had similar ideas, like

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Speaker 2: non state, non capitalist methods of organizing, right. But I'd

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Speaker 2: never given too much thought to what connotations people had

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Speaker 2: of the etymological root of the word anarchy, anarchist anarchism,

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Speaker 2: because in the like early modern world, the one that

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Speaker 2: the anarchists that I know of today that they come from,

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Speaker 2: the first people to call themselves anarchists were kind of

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Speaker 2: being edgy. They were like basically being like, I'm a

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Speaker 2: fucking terrorist. You got a fucking problem with that? You know,

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Speaker 2: it was like I want to tear it all down, like,

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Speaker 2: and they did believe in organization, and they believed in

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Speaker 2: these like constructive and socialistics, and it was a you know,

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Speaker 2: whatever I've talked about this a million times in the show,

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Speaker 2: but I just assumed that the word had its negative

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Speaker 2: connotations going all the way back, and I knew that

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Speaker 2: it derived from the Greek word an archia. But nope,

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Speaker 2: I mean it did derive from anarchia, the connotations of

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Speaker 2: that word in ancient Greece, and I'm inferring rome, but

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Speaker 2: I can't tell you as certainly is much more like

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Speaker 2: how someone might use it in a non negative sense today,

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Speaker 2: not necessarily a positive sense, but just a non negative sense.

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Speaker 3: Neutral.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because anarchia meant without leaders in a very literal way,

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Speaker 2: and Arkon, and Arkon was like the leader of Athens

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Speaker 2: during the democratic periods, and so it was understood as

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Speaker 2: kind of a radical form of democracy. Our man Aristotle,

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Speaker 2: when Athens didn't elect its Arkon for the year it's magistrate,

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Speaker 2: he called that year anarchy. And then Herodotus, who was

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Speaker 2: hanging out in the fucking fifth century BCE, described it

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Speaker 2: as anarchy when one cavalry unit lost their commander but

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Speaker 2: then kept on doing just fine leaderless for a while,

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Speaker 2: like working collectively as one unit.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't like total chaos. Anarchy. It's literally a term

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Speaker 3: for without a leader.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so they didn't have a leader and they

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Speaker 2: continued to do things. It was anarchy, and so this

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Speaker 2: is really fascinating to me. And so I want to

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Speaker 2: talk really quickly about democracy in the ancient world, or

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Speaker 2: I guess specifically in Athens, because again, I like didn't

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Speaker 2: know this stuff, and so I'm not going to assume

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Speaker 2: that the listener or you knows this stuff. I knew

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Speaker 2: that like Athens is where they had democracy. That was

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Speaker 2: kind of what I had, you know. Yeah, which is

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Speaker 2: funny because I've like been to those fucking places. When

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Speaker 2: I showed up in Greece, I was like, I want

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Speaker 2: to go see the Parthenon and shit, and like the

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Speaker 2: Greek anarchists I was hanging out with, We're like, man,

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Speaker 2: fuck that tourist shit, We're not going with you. And

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Speaker 2: I was like, then I'm going alone. Later the coliseum

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Speaker 2: is going to come up. It was the same deal.

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Speaker 2: I was like there with a bunch of Italian anarchists

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I'm going to the coliseum, and

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Speaker 2: of my two hosts, one was like, man, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going anywhere near that shit, and the other one guy

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Speaker 2: was like.

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Speaker 3: Wow, that's like when people come to LA and they're like,

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Speaker 3: I want to see Hollywood Boulevard and I'm like, no.

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Speaker 2: You don't yet, totally you you don't.

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Speaker 3: And they're like, I don't care if it's touristy, I

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Speaker 3: just need to see it. All right, that's your day lost.

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Speaker 3: But still even hearing that, I would also want to

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Speaker 3: go to those places to see it.

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Speaker 2: No, totally, and like, you know, go spit on the

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump Star, like yeah, drive down the Vegas Strip

347
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Speaker 2: listening to Dystopia, like whatever you need to do. So

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about ancient Greece, we're not talking about

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Speaker 2: Greece like a country. We're talking about city states that

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Speaker 2: go to war with each other and have temporary empires

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Speaker 2: and shit, and different ethnic groups and different cities are

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Speaker 2: like more in power at different times. Athens in particular,

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Speaker 2: like to do democracy every now and then in between

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Speaker 2: this or that dictatorship. Democracy gets sort of scare quotes

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Speaker 2: here because only citizens were involved in it, and in

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Speaker 2: order to be a citizen, you couldn't be an immigrant,

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Speaker 2: and you had to be a man, and you couldn't

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Speaker 2: be enslaved. About one in six adults in the city

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Speaker 2: were likely to be citizens at any given point. But

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Speaker 2: then that democracy within that fairly big, like they had

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Speaker 2: a slave empire thing, you know, if you exclude the

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Speaker 2: patriarchy and the slavery, it was oddly democratic. It was

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Speaker 2: more democratic than what we live in now. Specifically, they

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Speaker 2: used direct democracy. The popular assembly was any citizen who

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Speaker 2: felt like showing up to the acropolis. Now granted, this

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Speaker 2: is in the middle of the city, so rich people

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Speaker 2: had like more free time and lived closer to it.

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Speaker 2: So this de facto favored the wealthy because they could

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Speaker 2: show up to participate in the democratic process more easily

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Speaker 2: than like a farmer who has to bring the crops in.

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Speaker 2: So when new proposals for laws come down, the first

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Speaker 2: thing that happens is that they try to reach consensus.

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Speaker 2: Someone makes a proposal, people talk about it, suggest alternatives,

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Speaker 2: and they try for consensus. Only when that doesn't work

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Speaker 2: do they do majority voting, which they do by blind ballot.

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Speaker 2: And the way that they picked their magistrates. The people

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Speaker 2: who would like run shit, I'm actually like sold on

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Speaker 2: some of the shit that they did, and they're okay.

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Speaker 2: They picked their magistrates at random. Oh just okay, literally

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Speaker 2: at random. It's a one year.

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Speaker 3: Service like jury duty or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's civic service. Yeah, and so no one's campaigning,

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Speaker 2: no one's building political parties. And then okay, this is

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Speaker 2: the part that I still think I believe in, but

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Speaker 2: it's sketchy. If someone seemed like a real threat to democracy,

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Speaker 2: if people like someone a lot, if you got about

387
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Speaker 2: one fifth of the citizens of Athens to agree, they

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Speaker 2: would be banished for ten years.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, I mean it's dangerous, but I just can't help.

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Speaker 3: But think of all the people i'd put on that list.

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Speaker 2: I know, no trial, no appeals.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that's intense.

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Speaker 2: One fifth of the people, six thousand people out of

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Speaker 2: the thirty thousands.

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Speaker 3: So you could just be disliked totally. You could not

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Speaker 3: smell very good, and a lot of people agree with that.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: But then you'd have to be like so famous that

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Speaker 2: everyone knows you.

400
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 3: Smell bad, right, or so smelly?

401
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 2: That's true. That's a good point.

402
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,560
Speaker 3: Anyway, something to think about.

403
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you come back early, they kill you.

404
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: But when you come back after ten years, there's no stigma.

405
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 2: None of your property is confiscated, which in some cases

406
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Speaker 2: is bad because that property is often people, and like

407
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 2: there's no stigma about it.

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00:20:59,400 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 3: Okay.

409
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: It was a way to prevent people from getting too

410
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,959
Speaker 2: big for their bridges, and not too many people were

411
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,120
Speaker 2: ever ostracized. They did this for about one hundred years

412
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 2: or so, and like thirty ish people werever ostracized this way.

413
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 2: The first couple were the only ones I read about.

414
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Speaker 2: They were people who are seen as like traders, who

415
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Speaker 2: were opposed to democracy or were supporting like geopolitical enemies,

416
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 2: like if you supported Persia, they'd maybe ostracize you. Okay,

417
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 2: this is where we get the word ostracization from. That's

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Speaker 2: what's so funny about fucking around in like the ancient past,

419
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: Like this is you're like, oh, this is literally what

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00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 2: the word ostracize means. Because the little ceramic tokens that

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00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 2: they used to count these votes were called the ostra khon.

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00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 3: Really yeah, wow, fascinating the ostra khon? Yeah wow, what

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00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,159
Speaker 3: has that got its root? And so how did they

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Speaker 3: name that?

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00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 2: I don't know the etymology behind that. I'm not actually sure.

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Speaker 3: Literally ostracize is that's yeah, that's crazy.

427
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, enough people cast the vote to kick you out,

428
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 2: and like, just think about how different our political system

429
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: would be, because there's never been a president. You couldn't

430
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Speaker 2: get a fifth of the population to agree shouldn't be president.

431
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 3: Everybody would be out.

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Speaker 2: That seems fine by me.

433
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Speaker 3: No presidents, that's fine anarchia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's possible that other cities did this thing too,

435
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: but we have less specific evidence of it. And originally

436
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 2: I assume that this whole system of democracy was just

437
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 2: a thing for rich guys, because it's kind of in

438
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 2: some way seems sort of comparable to the US South

439
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 2: before the Civil War, you know, is like rich people

440
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 2: sitting around being like, Oh, we're so fancy, we own people.

441
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: And it was just a thing for non immigrant, non

442
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 2: enslaved men, and many of them were slavers. But it

443
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 2: was also like a thing for the poor, working fore men.

444
00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: Right and rich and educated folks actually hated demandmocracy because

445
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: it let poor men in. It let poor people be

446
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 2: their equals. Plato, who's this classic right wing dickhead, was

447
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: always complaining about how it let mob rule take control

448
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: or whatever. And to be clear, Athens didn't invent using

449
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 2: popular assemblies or direct democracy. It's that this is kind

450
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: of what people when they were like, We've talked about

451
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: this a bunch on the show but a lot of

452
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 2: ancient societies of all over the world will like do

453
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: things like popular assemblies because there's not really an assumption

454
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: that one person like gets to be in charge. Like

455
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: imagine think about the UN. Right in the UN, theoretically

456
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 2: every nation's equal. Obviously this isn't the case. But like,

457
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: if you're a country, you're not really supposed to be

458
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: able to tell another country what to do. Sure, yeah,

459
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: people do it through war and the diplomacy and blackmail

460
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: and economic pressure and all this shit. Right, we've got

461
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 2: that on full display right now. But yes, and so

462
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: in some ways this democracy is like that. It's everyone's

463
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 2: ostensibly autonomous. And in this case it's like you have

464
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: all these little sovereigns at the head of their various households,

465
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 2: and you know, you can't let immigrants join in the

466
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: decision making though, would be just terrible. Oh No, So

467
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: that's Greek democracy. And I know it's a little bit

468
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: we're actually talking about Rome, but I just I think

469
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: that showing how a lot of people coming into this

470
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,159
Speaker 2: situation come from backgrounds where like actually they should be

471
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: able to have a say in what they do, you know,

472
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 2: I think it helps us understand why people are trying

473
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: to build a free society when they get the chance. Yeah,

474
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: so now we're gonna talk about what everyone loves, talking

475
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 2: about Rome and Roman slavery. Aren't you excited?

476
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I'm excited. I am excited.

477
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: It's really I love that this show is just about

478
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: bad people. But in Rever there's no other show that's

479
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 2: about bad people. That'd be a weird show, know, and

480
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 2: would listen to that?

481
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 3: That would be weird? Who would want to listen to that?

482
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: No, I couldn't tell you. Don't look at my most

483
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: listened to podcasts of the year.

484
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 3: That would stay out of my app But that's fine.

485
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Rome had a republic for a few hundred

486
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 2: years in the BCE. It is not a democracy, it's

487
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: a republic. It starts off kind of like how medieval

488
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 2: Europe started in on the republic thing. The rich people,

489
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 2: the aristocrats, wanted to be in charge, so they overthrew

490
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 2: the king. This surprised me when I first started reading

491
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 2: more history, but like this is medieval and like Late

492
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 2: and Renaissance whatever. History is like all of these like

493
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 2: revolutions where they're like, oh, we're not a monarchy anymore,

494
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 2: We're a republic or democracy. It's like, ah, the rich

495
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: people wanted to be in charge instead of the nobility, Like.

496
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 3: Pretty much the same thing for most people.

497
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a very nothing ever changes kind of thing.

498
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: In five h nine BCE, they created basically an oligarchy

499
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 2: with democratic trappings called the Roman Republic. You have the

500
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: patricians who are the oligarchy, and they make up the Senate,

501
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: which elects two consuls who are like co presidents. You

502
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 2: could say this is all men, of course.

503
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

504
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: And then there's the plebeians, who are the non enslaved

505
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: working people who have basically no rights. Well, they have

506
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: some rights, and they have little democratic bodies that have

507
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 2: very little power. It's like student government. You're like, oh,

508
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: look you're voting, you're in charge of the school dance.

509
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,239
Speaker 3: You guys managed it really well. Yeah, yeah, it's very

510
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: important what you're doing over there.

511
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, only you never get to grow up. You're always

512
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 2: a plebeian. And this entire republic is built on what

513
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: I think it was anthropologist David Graber who called the

514
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: military coinage slavery complex?

515
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: What military coinage slavery complex?

516
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 2: Okay, these are the foundations of this empire. I would, sadly,

517
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: after my reading, say that you would want to add

518
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: the word rape to the end of that phrase. Oh,

519
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: because the entire system was built on sexual violence through

520
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: the military, and coinage and slavery. All four of those

521
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: things are deeply related in a way that surprised me,

522
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: because you know, coinage seems like the odd one in there,

523
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: but it's not. It is completely not because the Roman

524
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 2: army at this point wasn't actually like a single army

525
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: under control of the Roman state. It was a bunch

526
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: of different armies controlled by different aristocrats, kind of like

527
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: you pay attention to news. You remember in twenty thirty

528
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: four CE there was that big war between musk who

529
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 2: controlled all those mercenaries, and the troops that were still

530
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 2: loyal to Melanie Milani Trump whatever fucking Trump after Donald

531
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 2: S goes.

532
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: By Melanie or Melli Milania. Yeah, I do remember, I

533
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 3: do remember that.

534
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like in twenty thirty four, what these aristocrats

535
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: did in Rome is borrow a ton of This is

536
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: gonna be really funny when people are listening to this

537
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 2: in twenty thirty six and they're like, fuck, how did Margaret.

538
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 3: Know she fucking called dude?

539
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, what these aristocrats did is they borrowed a ton

540
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 2: of money to raise these armies. And how did they

541
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 2: pay back their debts well through slavery and coinage. Basically,

542
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: you get a big fucking army and you just go

543
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 2: and the spread of empire is literally just organized banditry.

544
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: You get a big army and you rob the shit

545
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: out of everywhere you go. You sell all the people

546
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: you can, and then all the precious metals and jewelry

547
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: and all that shit you find, you melt the fuck

548
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: down and stamp your own fucking face onto Oh wow.

549
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: And like, coins are new at this point, and that's

550
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: not neutral. Currency and war go hand in hand, and

551
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: they literally always have, I always have. The very oldest

552
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: coins in history were mint in Persia and they were

553
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: for pain mercenaries. The Greeks did the same, and the

554
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: Romans actually just started using Greek coins for a while

555
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: until they started making their own coins just so that

556
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: they could pay for this nightmare machine.

557
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 3: That's fascinating. It gets deeper, not surprising, I know.

558
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: It is one of those things where I was like

559
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: I did not know this, but I'm like, oh, yeah, no,

560
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: that makes sense.

561
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.

562
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: It took hundreds of years, even in the Roman Empire

563
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: to get people to actually start using coins. People did

564
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: not like hard currency because they made the rich people richer.

565
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: And people aren't They're not dumb, right, They're like, oh,

566
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: this thing happened, and now the rich people are even

567
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: more powerful. That seems like it's bad. It wasn't like

568
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: it was communism. Before coins. People preferred a combination of

569
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: mutual aid and iouse. Okay, if you're like a small farmer,

570
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: you're kind of growing most of what you need, but

571
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 2: you're not growing everything you need, so you're like trading

572
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 2: some stuff, or you're like, hey, I swear i'll hit

573
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: you back, or people being like, ah, I know you

574
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: need a thing. Here's the thing, and people take care

575
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 2: of each other, and you know.

576
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: Right, And I guess at periods of time you've been

577
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 3: able to pay for things with grains or you know, yeah, yeah.

578
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: There's this whole thing that blew my mind that one

579
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: day I'll probably cover, even if it's unrelated to anything

580
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: I've wanted to cover on the show. I have to

581
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: find the right angle. There's this whole thing where people

582
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: paid all of their rented medieval England with eels.

583
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 3: Eels yeah, okay.

584
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: Eels, because that's what people. They needed, all the shit

585
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: that they grew. But they were like, all right, the landlord,

586
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: who's usually the church, but maybe a noble needs their due.

587
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: I better go get together a like thing at eels.

588
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: That's wild. Where does okay? Well that's a whole.

589
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: There was an eel historian on Twitter for a while

590
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: whose whole thing was this. This was my men'swear guy.

591
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: I also like the men'swear. This is your men's were guy. Yeah,

592
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: that's really the men's were. Guy's also my men'swear.

593
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: Guy.

594
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: It's almost enough to make me want menswear.

595
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 3: I love that there's something for everybody, you know an

596
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 3: eel historian, Sure, why not? We need someone to study that.

597
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: And so in the ancient world, you have a lot

598
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: of people paying their landlords if they have landlords, which

599
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: is a shame, but it's you know, not perfect society.

600
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 2: They're paying with grain and stuff, and when you pay

601
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: with food that spoils. You actually can't centralize political power

602
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: as well, because if you transport food, you have to

603
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: feed the animals that carry it, and so taxing the

604
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 2: hinter lens is kind of a net loss. Exerting political

605
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: power over a wide area was generally not worth trouble,

606
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: which is partly why they would just show up and

607
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: like rob everything you've ever owned and kill you rather

608
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: than like rule you. And so they're going around and

609
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: they're being like, all right, not only are we in charge,

610
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: you gotta start paying taxes. You got to use this

611
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: fucking shit called coins. Sorry, we don't make the rules.

612
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: We just make the rules, you know. And and this

613
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: war and so they would they would go and spread

614
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: all over the world. And this war involved essentially institutionalized

615
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: sexual violence, and it was against women and men, particularly

616
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: young men in air quotes, I don't actually know where

617
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 2: that cuts off. It was against women and young men alike,

618
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: and children. And it was also matched with often they're

619
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: going to kill you also and or in Slavian which

620
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: means I guess to do the thing that seems like

621
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: I would really be excited about it, but I'm actually not.

622
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: Where I get to talk about homosexuality in the ancient world.

623
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 3: Oh okay, she's got a grin, but it's a forced grin.

624
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's about pederasty. We get to talk about

625
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: pederasty now again. Okay, this is like whenever I cover

626
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: shit about like early feminism or birth control. And then

627
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: I'm like, and now we have to talk about eugenics,

628
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: and I have the same forced smile on my face.

629
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: Great, here we go again. Yeah, okay, it's okay, you

630
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 3: could do this, This too shall pass.

631
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, as we talked about I think last week, when

632
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: we talked about diogenies, it wasn't considered adultery for married

633
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: men to fuck young men and boys, at least in Greece. Okay,

634
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: and there wasn't really, as far as I can understand,

635
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: any conception of homosexuality of two men or two women

636
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: loving each other as peers. But honestly, by this standard,

637
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: there's also not a conception of heterosexual love either, of

638
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: the idea that a man and a woman love each

639
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: other as peers. Sex was something that you do to

640
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: someone that you control.

641
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: Man, it sounds really bad to be a woman.

642
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: It's really bad, Yeah.

643
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 3: Really really really bad to be a woman in this era.

644
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: It's really bad. Yeah, although the only defense you have

645
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: is that they sexually assault young men just as you do.

646
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm like, what, there's just no options here for.

647
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: No, women don't get to grow out of it. Yeah, no,

648
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: it's bad. Yeah, and it well, And what's interesting about

649
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 2: this about how everything gets back to misogyny. I don't

650
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 2: know if you've heard this. When the Bible talks about

651
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: man shall not lie with man as he does with woman,

652
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 2: that is an abomination or whatever the fuck. That's like

653
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: the main quote people use to use the Bible to

654
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,919
Speaker 2: defend homophobia. They're not talking in that Bible verse about

655
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: the idea that being gay is bad, right, They're talking

656
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: about how you shouldn't subject men to the same violation

657
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: that you subject women to.

658
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: Great, great, great, great cool.

659
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: So what's being institutionalized is not homophobia but patriarchy and misogyny,

660
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: which isn't better, No, it isn't.

661
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 3: But they manage to preach the misogyny and the control

662
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 3: of women and also misinterpret that to suggest that being

663
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: gay is bad. So I don't know, they're just getting

664
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 3: it wrong across the board. But whatever.

665
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 2: But do you know what has never gotten anything wrong?

666
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: You?

667
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: That's right? And my ad transitions, each one of them,

668
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: immaculately crafted, impeccable.

669
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: I've never heard a better ad transmit.

670
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: No, the ads themselves are some of them are fine.

671
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, but.

672
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, probably, yeah, I mean, they can't possibly be bad.

673
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's actually every now and then there's ones

674
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: like when I listen to Coolson podcasts, I get a

675
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 2: lot of like, hey, maybe consider prep and like, I

676
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 2: don't know it, depending on your lifestyle, maybe consider prep.

677
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, whatever do you want?

678
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 4: Some ads aren't bad, yeah, And here they are.

679
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 2: And we're back. And so that's where states come from.

680
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: City states are like, why don't we just raised an

681
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: army and then force everyone to do coins with slavery

682
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 2: and sexual assault and we just murder everyone. And you've

683
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: got this statue from the first century CE about Rome

684
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 2: conquering Britain. We did a whole series of episodes about

685
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: the people who fought against Rome conquering Britain. And this

686
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 2: has Emper Claudius standing over a woman whose clothes have

687
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: been ripped away, and her name is Britannia and she

688
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 2: represents you know, Britain, and he's about to kill her

689
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: and he has just sexually assaulted her. And this wasn't

690
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: made as an anti Roman piece of art, was it.

691
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: This was a pro Roman. They were like, look how

692
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: powerful we are. We just go around and violate and

693
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: destroy and this is not the only artistic representation of

694
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: this idea. So that's part of it. Now let's talk

695
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 2: about the slavery part. Yay, this is the problem with

696
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: when the first half of the show's context. But I

697
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 2: think it's really useful because the people that we're going

698
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: to talk to fight all of this really successfully, and like,

699
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 2: this is why I really intentionally want to tie together

700
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 2: coinage and sexual assault and slavery, because these are all

701
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: things that they're fighting against as one. We talked about

702
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: this a bunch last week about how the ancient world

703
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: is all in on slavery, including Greece and Rome, and

704
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 2: I grew up presented with a sort of sanitized idea

705
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: of slavery in the ancient world, and I got presented

706
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 2: with this for a couple contradictory reasons. I think both

707
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: the right and the left have done some sanitization of

708
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 2: this because first and foremost, there's this I would say

709
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 2: right wing whitewashing that happens because Western civilization is really

710
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 2: into imagining itself in the legacy of Greece and then Rome,

711
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 2: so it wants to present a cleaned up version of

712
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: those societies, and they're like, you know, oh, everything was

713
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 2: kind of fine there, when in fact we are based

714
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: on those societies in a lot of ways, for all

715
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: the bad reasons. You can imagine the American South before

716
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: the Civil Wars pretty well following in the legacy of Rome,

717
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 2: all these plantation owners. There's literally a plantation system there,

718
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: imagining themselves as little kings, all coming together to have

719
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 2: a democracy and live the genteel life while the people

720
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: that they own toil and suffer and die at their hands.

721
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,240
Speaker 2: A lot of modern translations of ancient Greek and presumably

722
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: Roman texts I've only read about the Greek text if

723
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: I'm inferring the Roman part intentionally strips away the language

724
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: of slavery. So if you're reading some like Roman story

725
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: and it's like, ah, the handmaidens and the servants and

726
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: the workers, these are probably.

727
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 4: Enslaved people, right, the workers, right, yeah, And like on

728
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 4: some level there are some free workers, but like this

729
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 4: economy is run on slavery most of the time.

730
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: It ebbs and flows.

731
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: And even if you are just a worker, or you

732
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 3: are a worker not a slave, is it that far

733
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: different from slavery? What a machined I mean, right, there's

734
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 3: so many parallels between every version of society from that

735
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:53,959
Speaker 3: but all the way up till now. But you're like, yeah,

736
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 3: it same thing, different accoutrement, but yeah, there's still slaves anyway.

737
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 2: No. No, it's like, oh, I have no control over

738
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 2: my life and if I don't do this work, they'll die.

739
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: Like yeah, it's not a freeway to live.

740
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 3: No.

741
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, And on the other side, you'll run across people,

742
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,959
Speaker 2: including me. Sometimes people really want to present the way

743
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: in which slavery in the United States, in the US

744
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: South was uniquely bad. And this is something I've done

745
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 2: myself because it was uniquely bad, particularly in the way

746
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: that it was racialized. Yeah, it was unique and fucking evil.

747
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: But that doesn't make the other forms of slavery good

748
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: or sanitized.

749
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 3: I think you've summarized it. It's like both things can

750
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 3: be true. And also, I don't think that we have

751
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 3: to quantify which version is the worst to make a

752
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 3: point about how bad it is. They're just slightly different versions.

753
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: So yeah, no one wins the Oppression Olympics, like there

754
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: is no goal, there's no point. Intersectionality teaches that we

755
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 2: should understand the different ways that we suffer and oppressed

756
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: and all of these things without trying to be like, ah,

757
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: but I like add up to more points than you

758
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: and so you know, like.

759
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: And it goes both ways to hear some people say like, ah, well,

760
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: it's not like we invented slavery United States. I'm like, okay,

761
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 3: it's just as bad. It's bad. It's all bad.

762
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: Yeah anyway, yeah, no, totally. It'd be like, all right,

763
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: like I didn't invent murdering a guy. That doesn't make

764
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: it okay for me to murder a guy, like.

765
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: Right, Like, okay, and your point is literally so we

766
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 3: should have known better. What you're saying is that we

767
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: should have known better.

768
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, it's like that meme that's like, how are

769
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 2: you all failing this fascism thing? It's an open note test.

770
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 2: And I've read so many things that talk about Greek

771
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,240
Speaker 2: and Roman slavery that emphasize how many of the enslaved

772
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: people lived somewhat normal lives and eventually found themselves freed

773
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: one way or the other, like this has happened when

774
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: I've tried to deep dive this on the show before,

775
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: where people will be like, hey, you know a lot

776
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: of people would even sell themselves into slavery to like

777
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: have a place to live for a little while and

778
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: then they'd be free again. And okay, there's some of this,

779
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: especially for educated enslave people, but no, the ancient Greek

780
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: economy and the Roman economy was based on slave labor

781
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: from agriculture to mining, and those people did not have

782
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: it nice. They were one percent treated as machines to

783
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: be run down and killed.

784
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: Doesn't change anything that some people decided to go into it.

785
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: It's still a part of a broken system that is

786
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: abusing people.

787
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: Most of the enslaved people were captured by pirates in

788
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: this or that war, and the capture of people to

789
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: enslave was one of the main purposes of war and

790
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: colonial expansion. And this slavery was also hereditary. If your

791
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 2: mother was enslaved, you were born enslaved. Italy's whole economy

792
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: was run on slavery. By the end of the Roman Republic,

793
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 2: at the tail end of the two hundreds BCE, you've

794
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: got what's called the Second Punic War against Carthage and

795
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: was now Tunisia northern Africa. And as the Roman Empire

796
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 2: started having wars further and further from home, all these

797
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: citizen soldiers would go off to war and be gone

798
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: for a long time, so all the small farmers would leave,

799
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: and then they would come back and their farm would

800
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: be broke because they were gone the whole time. So

801
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: they would sell their farm and they'd move into the city.

802
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: No more small farms. Now, big plantations take up all

803
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 2: of the land. These are worked by enslaved people. As

804
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: the ancient Roman historian Apian put it quote, the rich

805
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: used persuasion or force to buy or seize property which

806
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: adjoined their own or any other small holdings belonging to

807
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: poor men, and came to operate great ranches instead of

808
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: single farms. They employed slave hands and shepherds on these

809
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,479
Speaker 2: estates to avoid having free men dragged off the land

810
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 2: to serve in the army, and they derived great profit

811
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 2: from this form of ownership too, as the slaves had

812
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 2: many children and no liability to met military service, and

813
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 2: their numbers increased greatly. For these reasons, the powerful war

814
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: becoming extremely rich, for the number of slaves in the

815
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 2: country was reaching large proportions, while the Italian people were

816
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: suffering from depopulation and shortage of men, worn down as

817
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 2: they were by poverty and taxes and military service. Wow

818
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 2: and so yeah. By the time you hit like zero

819
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: and the BCE becomes the CE. About two million out

820
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: of eight million people in Italy were enslaved.

821
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 3: WHOA, yeah, that's a huge number.

822
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 2: And people just they didn't want to be enslaved, so

823
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 2: they did something about it, and you get what are

824
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 2: called the servile wars.

825
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 3: Oh, we're back to the servile wars.

826
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: War against the servile And as for that, there's three

827
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 2: of them. But the third one is the one we're

828
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: excited about. We're going to talk about it on Wednesday.

829
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: Oh, we're going to talk about what a cliffhanger.

830
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 2: I know, I know it accidentally became a formula, but

831
00:43:58,560 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 2: this is.

832
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 3: All important context for the next part of the conversation.

833
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 3: I'm going to guess.

834
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a combination of like, I think this

835
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: context is super it's really useful because like, yes, you

836
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: can just say slaves revolted, and that is inherently always good, right,

837
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: Like if someone owns you and you're like, nah, you

838
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: don't own me anymore, that is always a leveling. That

839
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: is always a positive thing.

840
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

841
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: But I think to understand how they conceptualize, or how

842
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: they likely conceptualize, what they were doing, because they didn't

843
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 2: write their own history. I think it's really useful to

844
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: understand this like wild combination of free and unfree. You

845
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 2: have all of these ideas, you know, all these ideas

846
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 2: of like how do we get by as equals? And

847
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 2: they're like, I mean, except for the people we own,

848
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 2: fuck them, you know, Like, right.

849
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 3: It is weird to hear. I mean, we started with

850
00:44:55,960 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 3: this conversation and I'll just nothing changes. Everything is hauntingly familiar,

851
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 3: you know, everything you say, like, oh, we've been doing

852
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:06,399
Speaker 3: it since then.

853
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:13,320
Speaker 2: Huh yeah, yeah, these democracies fall into dictatorships. But also

854
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 2: the people trying to do really amazing shit have always

855
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: been there.

856
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,839
Speaker 3: Too, right, And I'll end on this thought, which is

857
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 3: this has been going on forever, and I imagine there

858
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 3: will always be elements of this happening, these kinds of

859
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: dynamics and us fighting the good fight. However, for how

860
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 3: bad things are, it's a lot better for us now

861
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 3: than it was then, and for a lot of people,

862
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: not for everybody, certainly, right, and because there are good people,

863
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 3: because there are the helpers, Because even if it doesn't

864
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 3: feel like it in the moment, we are inching our

865
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 3: way forward towards a better and more just society towards

866
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: more equality. And it is infuriating that we have so

867
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 3: much work left to do, but it is helpful to

868
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: understand that, well, one in six people could vote in

869
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 3: that version of democracy, so.

870
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: Right, you know, No, it's a good point when I

871
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 2: think about slavery. I fortunately grew up learning that slavery

872
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 2: was bad in America and none of this like weird

873
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: horrible stuff about like oh it was fine or whatever. Yeah,

874
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 2: but like I really only learned about American slavery, and

875
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 2: I didn't learn about this long, long history where most

876
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: cultures in the world, not all, there were many very

877
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 2: explicitly anti slavery cultures and non slavery cultures, but most

878
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 2: cultures across the world thought it was totally fine to

879
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: own a guy. And like most people I would guess

880
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: in the world currently do not think it's okay to

881
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 2: own a guy anymore. There's still all kinds of slavery

882
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 2: in the modern world. In the United States, of course,

883
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 2: there's still legal slavery, like literally the Fourteenth Amendment outlawed

884
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 2: slavery and accepting cases of punishment for crime, you know,

885
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 2: and so like prison labor is legally slavery, and it's bad, right,

886
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 2: but like it is, one of the more dramatic things

887
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 2: I think we've done as a human society is change

888
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: the way that we think about slavery.

889
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 3: Think about that, and think about each other. And it's

890
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 3: hard because I know people listening to this are almost

891
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 3: certainly more politically aligned with us. And it's hard to

892
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: say these things because I know, I know, I know,

893
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,439
Speaker 3: we're all feeling outraged all the time right now. Yeah,

894
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 3: there is still slavery, it looks different. Yeah, these injustices

895
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: do still happen. Yeah, there are idiots out here saying

896
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 3: that women shouldn't have the right to vote. All of

897
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 3: this is true, and we still look down on people,

898
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 3: We still other people, all of that, But we have

899
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 3: fundamentally changed the way we think about people inherently, at

900
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 3: least culturally. We're supposed to be whether or not people

901
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: are hiding secret thoughts, but you don't think of people

902
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 3: as being as disposable as we used to in general. Again,

903
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 3: I know that people are, but yeah.

904
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: No, no, I think that this is overall true. I

905
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 2: do think though, that there's this interesting thing where because

906
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 2: so much of the modern world has its roots in exactly.

907
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 2: This area, like currently the Middle East and the Mediterranean

908
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 2: area broadly, is where so many of the ideas that

909
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 2: later colonize the world come from. Right that I think

910
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: we can kind of accidentally, I know, I just said

911
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 2: that most cultures practice slavery, but like I would guess

912
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: based on what I've read and what's available, which isn't

913
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 2: all that much, that like the people of Britain before

914
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: Roman invasion were substantially more egalitarian, were substantially and probably

915
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: more galitarian than we are today. On the other hand,

916
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 2: they still also probably owned people every now and then. Right,

917
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: when you compare to like the Mediterranean societies, to like

918
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: Rome and Greece and some of these other cultures you're

919
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 2: looking at like, oh my god, the past is a

920
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: complete nightmare. Right, Yeah, And we've made some progress, but

921
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 2: I think it's a little bit of like win, some

922
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: lose some when we compare ourselves to like especially cultures

923
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: here in North America, but also the two cultures I

924
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 2: know more about because of who I am, is like

925
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: indigenous North Americans and like pre civilized quote unquote Europe. Right,

926
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: But I don't know, but I do think that there

927
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: are gains that we make that are like large and subsubstantive,

928
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 2: and I think that they're going to come from people

929
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 2: like the hundreds of thousands of people who rose up

930
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 2: against Rome.

931
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 3: Exactly who we're going to talk about on Wednesday.

932
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,879
Speaker 2: That's right. You got anything you want to plug, you.

933
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: Know, go check out our show. Some more news on

934
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 3: YouTube or podcasts if you prefer to listen and not watch.

935
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 3: Got a couple of different shows on there. We've got

936
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 3: a Patreon and the new year, we're going to start

937
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 3: live streaming. I don't know how often, but we're excited

938
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 3: about well, I don't know excited is the right word.

939
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: It'll be fun, willing to yeah, okay too, it'll be

940
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 2: something different.

941
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 3: We want to do something different. So anyway, that's me,

942
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 3: that's us.

943
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 2: Check it out, all right, Well, I'll see you on Wednesday.

944
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production cool

945
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit

946
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on iHeartRadio, app,

947
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: app a podcasts, or

948
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 3: Wherever you get your podcasts