1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:23,556 Speaker 1: Push it. I immediately thought, they are punishing these women 2 00:00:23,596 --> 00:00:27,636 Speaker 1: for having children. And I think there was just something 3 00:00:27,836 --> 00:00:31,636 Speaker 1: about the punishment of reproduction, the punishment of child bearing, 4 00:00:32,236 --> 00:00:38,196 Speaker 1: that to me, was one of the most insidious, dehumanizing 5 00:00:38,276 --> 00:00:44,036 Speaker 1: forms of devaluing human beings, you know, to say, you 6 00:00:44,076 --> 00:00:48,596 Speaker 1: don't deserve to have children, you don't deserve to contribute 7 00:00:48,916 --> 00:00:56,956 Speaker 1: to our society. I'm Khalil Jibra Mohammed and I'm Ben Austin. 8 00:00:57,236 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 1: We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a 9 00:01:00,636 --> 00:01:03,716 Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of 10 00:01:03,756 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 1: my best friends are Some of my best friends are like, 11 00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:11,276 Speaker 1: I'm not a blank, some of my best friends are blank. 12 00:01:11,716 --> 00:01:14,356 Speaker 1: In this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the 13 00:01:14,396 --> 00:01:18,516 Speaker 1: absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. And in 14 00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:22,276 Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to talk about the recent DAPs 15 00:01:22,356 --> 00:01:26,556 Speaker 1: decision and reproductive justice with someone who knows more about 16 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:44,596 Speaker 1: these issues than anyone else. Hey, Ben, Hey man, All right, Hey, hey, 17 00:01:44,836 --> 00:01:47,956 Speaker 1: always always good to be talking with you. I'm always better. Yeah. 18 00:01:47,996 --> 00:01:50,996 Speaker 1: You know, today's guest has me thinking about this song 19 00:01:51,036 --> 00:01:53,836 Speaker 1: that's in my head. Can you guess which song it is? 20 00:01:53,836 --> 00:01:57,076 Speaker 1: Is it Sadie, Sadie May No, No, that's a that's 21 00:01:57,076 --> 00:01:59,476 Speaker 1: a good one. That's a good one. This one is 22 00:01:59,716 --> 00:02:04,196 Speaker 1: I'll always love my Mama. I'll always love I'll always 23 00:02:04,316 --> 00:02:08,156 Speaker 1: love mym mom. I gotta say because Dorothy Roberts, our 24 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:12,796 Speaker 1: guest today, is the leading scholar of black motherhood and 25 00:02:12,876 --> 00:02:18,276 Speaker 1: the fight for reproductive justice. This scholar, this advocate, this 26 00:02:18,516 --> 00:02:23,796 Speaker 1: tireless activist for reproductive justice, has written four books, probably 27 00:02:23,836 --> 00:02:27,476 Speaker 1: the most influential of them in shaping how we understand 28 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:30,636 Speaker 1: the meaning of having control over your Body's a book 29 00:02:30,636 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 1: called Killing the Black Body, Race, reproduction, and the Meaning 30 00:02:33,716 --> 00:02:37,676 Speaker 1: of Liberty. I am so excited to have her on 31 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:40,716 Speaker 1: our show today. She's a law professor and sociologist now 32 00:02:40,716 --> 00:02:43,756 Speaker 1: at your alma mater, that's right, University of Pennsylvania. And 33 00:02:43,836 --> 00:02:47,716 Speaker 1: she's a Chicagoan. I mean, it's like it's from our neighborhood. 34 00:02:47,716 --> 00:02:51,036 Speaker 1: It's all real. And so we are at the fiftieth 35 00:02:51,036 --> 00:02:54,876 Speaker 1: anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision this month, January 36 00:02:54,876 --> 00:02:58,036 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three is the fiftieth anniversary. Is January nineteen 37 00:02:58,116 --> 00:03:01,836 Speaker 1: seventy three, last summer when the jobs decision came down. 38 00:03:01,996 --> 00:03:04,596 Speaker 1: Khalil and it ruled that a woman does not have 39 00:03:04,676 --> 00:03:07,996 Speaker 1: a constitutional right to an abortion. That's right, and the 40 00:03:08,116 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 1: uproar that happened. Then people say it shaped the midterms, 41 00:03:10,956 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 1: that happened, But there's so much more to the dab's decision. Yes, 42 00:03:14,116 --> 00:03:17,316 Speaker 1: and Dorothy is going to help us unpack that. Yeah, 43 00:03:17,356 --> 00:03:20,156 Speaker 1: because the truth is that most of the conversation has 44 00:03:20,196 --> 00:03:22,916 Speaker 1: been framed only around the loss of the right to 45 00:03:22,956 --> 00:03:25,756 Speaker 1: an abortion. That states can now take that right away. 46 00:03:26,236 --> 00:03:28,556 Speaker 1: But the truth is, if we had been listening to 47 00:03:28,596 --> 00:03:31,636 Speaker 1: Dorothy Roberts over the course of the work that she's 48 00:03:31,636 --> 00:03:34,956 Speaker 1: been doing for decades, we would have understood that this 49 00:03:35,076 --> 00:03:38,316 Speaker 1: is really a fight about the right to choose what 50 00:03:38,396 --> 00:03:40,596 Speaker 1: you do with your body, whether it's to choose an 51 00:03:40,636 --> 00:03:43,996 Speaker 1: abortion or to not choose an abortion. This issue cuts 52 00:03:44,076 --> 00:03:46,916 Speaker 1: both ways, and seeing it through the lens of race, 53 00:03:47,276 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 1: as she has done, helps us really understand that. And 54 00:03:50,356 --> 00:03:52,796 Speaker 1: so kind of what you're saying is people might not 55 00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:55,596 Speaker 1: have listened to her before, but once they listened to 56 00:03:55,676 --> 00:04:00,676 Speaker 1: this podcast, done deal. We solve things. That's right. But 57 00:04:00,756 --> 00:04:02,516 Speaker 1: I got one more thing to add, you know, speaking 58 00:04:02,516 --> 00:04:06,036 Speaker 1: about Mama's so some of our listeners know that my 59 00:04:06,156 --> 00:04:10,436 Speaker 1: mother's grandfather has this ambiguous race past, and in a way, 60 00:04:10,596 --> 00:04:13,516 Speaker 1: he left Mississippi in the nineteen twenties and married a 61 00:04:13,556 --> 00:04:16,956 Speaker 1: black woman because it was kind of illegal because he 62 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:20,316 Speaker 1: was kind of white presenting. He was kind of white presenting. 63 00:04:21,516 --> 00:04:25,476 Speaker 1: People say it sometimes say that about me exactly. So 64 00:04:27,196 --> 00:04:30,236 Speaker 1: the reason this matters is because one of the ways 65 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:33,356 Speaker 1: that Dorothy Roberts his career has been shaped is by 66 00:04:33,396 --> 00:04:36,236 Speaker 1: her own story of growing up as a product of 67 00:04:36,236 --> 00:04:40,156 Speaker 1: an interracial marriage. That's right. She helps us understand, like 68 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:44,396 Speaker 1: the motivation for her to care about even childbirth and 69 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:46,916 Speaker 1: what children mean for the world, and the right to 70 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:49,796 Speaker 1: choose what you want to do when you are thinking 71 00:04:49,836 --> 00:04:53,156 Speaker 1: about planning for a child kind of has a lot 72 00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:55,756 Speaker 1: to do with her own background. So we're gonna hear 73 00:04:55,796 --> 00:04:58,316 Speaker 1: a lot more about who Dorothy Robberts is, as well 74 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:00,116 Speaker 1: as what she thinks we ought to be doing differently 75 00:05:00,156 --> 00:05:02,916 Speaker 1: about reproductive justice in this country. Let's jump right into 76 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:04,676 Speaker 1: this because Dorothy has a lot to say and we 77 00:05:04,716 --> 00:05:15,236 Speaker 1: need to hear it. Dorothy, it is great to meet you. 78 00:05:15,476 --> 00:05:17,196 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on Some of my 79 00:05:17,236 --> 00:05:19,916 Speaker 1: best friends are Thank you very much for inviting me. 80 00:05:19,956 --> 00:05:23,996 Speaker 1: I look forward to our conversation absolutely. So all three 81 00:05:23,996 --> 00:05:26,716 Speaker 1: of us grew up in Hyde Park area. Wow, Khalil 82 00:05:26,756 --> 00:05:29,156 Speaker 1: and I went to Kenwood together, which is the high 83 00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:33,316 Speaker 1: school in Hyde Park. But I'm also the father and 84 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 1: parent in an interracial family. I'm maybe not unlike your 85 00:05:38,116 --> 00:05:42,196 Speaker 1: father back in the sixties. I have this very bookish, 86 00:05:42,236 --> 00:05:45,356 Speaker 1: sort of Dorothy Roberts like daughter who is now seventeen. 87 00:05:45,836 --> 00:05:48,476 Speaker 1: Her name is Lysia. But maybe you can talk about, 88 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:51,436 Speaker 1: you know, that part of your past and sort of 89 00:05:51,476 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 1: this interracial identity in this family that you came from 90 00:05:54,756 --> 00:05:58,276 Speaker 1: in the same neighborhood that we're from. Yeah. Sure. It's 91 00:05:58,316 --> 00:06:02,276 Speaker 1: so interesting because from most of my career I have 92 00:06:02,516 --> 00:06:09,636 Speaker 1: not talked about my background, about my parents race, and 93 00:06:09,676 --> 00:06:12,236 Speaker 1: now it seems to come up a lot. And I'm 94 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:16,036 Speaker 1: working on a kind of memoir about my parents, so 95 00:06:16,756 --> 00:06:19,836 Speaker 1: it's very present in my mind. And of course my 96 00:06:20,236 --> 00:06:25,716 Speaker 1: background my family have been very influential in my career 97 00:06:25,916 --> 00:06:29,076 Speaker 1: and my interests, so that only makes sense. I just, 98 00:06:29,276 --> 00:06:31,876 Speaker 1: you know, I just haven't talked about it much. So 99 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 1: I grew up in the nineteen sixties in Hyde Park. 100 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 1: I would have gone to Kenwood High but my father 101 00:06:39,196 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: had Fullbright fellowship in Egypt, so I spent my first 102 00:06:42,196 --> 00:06:45,676 Speaker 1: two years of high school in Cairo, Egypt, instead of 103 00:06:45,716 --> 00:06:48,876 Speaker 1: in Hyde Park. That's really fascinating. I went to Shuesmith 104 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 1: Elementary School, which is right, you know, down the street 105 00:06:51,836 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: from Kenwood High I live a block away from Shuesmith. 106 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 1: I passed it every morning on my dog walk. We're neighbors. Yeah, 107 00:06:57,836 --> 00:07:02,876 Speaker 1: that's amazing. Historically directly, directly, so this was in the sixties. 108 00:07:03,756 --> 00:07:10,316 Speaker 1: My father was a white anthropologist at Roosevelt University in Chicago, 109 00:07:10,636 --> 00:07:16,236 Speaker 1: downtown Chicago. My mother was an immigrant from Jamaica who 110 00:07:16,396 --> 00:07:20,436 Speaker 1: first lived in Liberia before she came to the United States. 111 00:07:20,436 --> 00:07:23,876 Speaker 1: But she got a scholarship to Roosevelt and met my 112 00:07:23,956 --> 00:07:27,836 Speaker 1: father there while she was a student. And my father 113 00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:32,596 Speaker 1: was a researcher of interracial marriage. Interesting. You're gonna have 114 00:07:32,596 --> 00:07:34,476 Speaker 1: to stop me if I get too deep into this, 115 00:07:34,676 --> 00:07:38,556 Speaker 1: because I could talk just about this forever. This is 116 00:07:38,556 --> 00:07:41,076 Speaker 1: so yeah, Like I said, this is my experience. So 117 00:07:41,116 --> 00:07:44,436 Speaker 1: I'm so curious about his research and how you interpreted 118 00:07:44,476 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 1: it and how you felt it as a child. Just 119 00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:49,596 Speaker 1: so you know, Dorothy, I've been also researching Ben as 120 00:07:49,596 --> 00:07:52,156 Speaker 1: a white guy raising two by racial kids. So this 121 00:07:52,236 --> 00:07:56,916 Speaker 1: is helpful to me. Too. Okay. So my father growing 122 00:07:56,996 --> 00:08:01,276 Speaker 1: up was always writing a book from the first distant 123 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: part of my memory, writing a book on interracial marriage 124 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:08,116 Speaker 1: in Chicago, and was interviewing black white couples in Chicago. Okay, 125 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:11,596 Speaker 1: And this was an important part of my childhood because 126 00:08:12,116 --> 00:08:16,276 Speaker 1: he not only was researching it, he was promoting it. 127 00:08:16,356 --> 00:08:19,916 Speaker 1: He really believed that interracial marriage was the answer to 128 00:08:19,996 --> 00:08:24,876 Speaker 1: America's race problem. So interesting, and this was reflected in 129 00:08:25,516 --> 00:08:29,316 Speaker 1: our family because he married a black woman, my mother, 130 00:08:30,116 --> 00:08:34,436 Speaker 1: and all of their friends or most of their friends 131 00:08:34,436 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: were interracial couples. So I thought that my father was 132 00:08:38,636 --> 00:08:41,516 Speaker 1: working on this book in the nineteen sixties. When I 133 00:08:41,556 --> 00:08:45,196 Speaker 1: came to Penn ten years ago and had to collect 134 00:08:45,236 --> 00:08:49,556 Speaker 1: all the boxes in my basement, I shipped to pen 135 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:54,716 Speaker 1: twenty five boxes of my father's papers. He had passed away, 136 00:08:55,036 --> 00:08:59,116 Speaker 1: and I hadn't looked at them. The first box I 137 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:03,116 Speaker 1: opened up, I see these interviews he conducted, and the 138 00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:08,516 Speaker 1: dates on them are nineteen thirty seven, And I assumed 139 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:11,596 Speaker 1: these are couples who were married in nineteen thirty seven, 140 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:15,316 Speaker 1: which he interviewed in the nineteen sixties Lower Beehall. They 141 00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: were actually interviews that he conducted in nineteen thirty seven 142 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:25,276 Speaker 1: when he was a master's student at University of Chicago, 143 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:29,836 Speaker 1: well before he met your mother. Aha, that's exactly right. 144 00:09:30,196 --> 00:09:32,396 Speaker 1: I like this. I'm liking where this is going. I'm 145 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:35,596 Speaker 1: liking this. This gives whole new meaning to the professional. 146 00:09:35,756 --> 00:09:37,796 Speaker 1: Is the personnel or the personnel is the political? This 147 00:09:37,956 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 1: whole new spin on it, exactly because I had always 148 00:09:41,996 --> 00:09:45,676 Speaker 1: assumed he got interested in the topic because he met 149 00:09:45,716 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 1: my mother, not prior to now, I'm sorry to think, 150 00:09:49,076 --> 00:09:51,516 Speaker 1: did he marry my mother? And as part of his 151 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:56,436 Speaker 1: research project. Well then I read some more and I 152 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:59,516 Speaker 1: get to the interviews conducted to the nineteen fifties, and 153 00:09:59,596 --> 00:10:02,996 Speaker 1: he's conducting them with my mother prior to their marriage. 154 00:10:03,356 --> 00:10:07,276 Speaker 1: My mother was his research assistant, and she was doing 155 00:10:07,316 --> 00:10:11,356 Speaker 1: the interviews of the women, and he convicted the interviews 156 00:10:11,356 --> 00:10:15,116 Speaker 1: of the men. Anyway, that's all background I only discovered 157 00:10:15,156 --> 00:10:19,436 Speaker 1: ten years ago. But our life as a family was very, 158 00:10:19,556 --> 00:10:24,796 Speaker 1: very much influenced by my parents, especially my father's mission 159 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:29,636 Speaker 1: to promote interracial marriage in Chicago, and so I was 160 00:10:29,716 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 1: surrounded by interracial couples, and early on I had adopted 161 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:41,116 Speaker 1: as a little girl, you know, in kindergarten, the philosophy 162 00:10:41,436 --> 00:10:45,276 Speaker 1: of my father and was very proud to be the 163 00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:48,796 Speaker 1: child of an interracial marriage. I can remember walking down 164 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:52,756 Speaker 1: the street in between my parents and thinking, this is, 165 00:10:53,156 --> 00:10:56,036 Speaker 1: you know, an example of how people of different races 166 00:10:56,036 --> 00:10:58,876 Speaker 1: can get together as proud to do it. By the 167 00:10:58,916 --> 00:11:04,516 Speaker 1: time I went to college, I was affirmatively hiding the 168 00:11:04,556 --> 00:11:07,156 Speaker 1: fact that my father was white. I could tell you 169 00:11:07,236 --> 00:11:10,956 Speaker 1: situations where I lied, I mean light about it, and 170 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:13,916 Speaker 1: I was and I didn't want people to see him. 171 00:11:13,956 --> 00:11:19,316 Speaker 1: I didn't want I hid family photos when I was 172 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:23,836 Speaker 1: with my friends that he was in. I really wanted to. 173 00:11:24,116 --> 00:11:29,516 Speaker 1: I thought that I needed to be I have two 174 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 1: black parents and for people to think I had two 175 00:11:32,076 --> 00:11:36,556 Speaker 1: black parents to identify the black Now that changed also, 176 00:11:36,716 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 1: and as you know, I wrote a book about countering 177 00:11:40,476 --> 00:11:43,756 Speaker 1: the biological concept of race and highlighting the fact that, 178 00:11:44,236 --> 00:11:49,636 Speaker 1: you know, black people have embraced people as black despite 179 00:11:49,676 --> 00:11:53,956 Speaker 1: what their exact ethnic background is. But I've gone through 180 00:11:54,196 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 1: a range of feelings and positions about my blackness. I mean, 181 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:02,476 Speaker 1: now I don't feel like I need to hide the 182 00:12:02,476 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: fact that my father was white. I think a lot 183 00:12:05,396 --> 00:12:07,636 Speaker 1: of my ideas today the fact that I'm now a 184 00:12:07,716 --> 00:12:14,236 Speaker 1: sociology professor, are so much of what I think supporting 185 00:12:14,316 --> 00:12:19,556 Speaker 1: my deep feeling about our common humanity that definitely comes 186 00:12:19,556 --> 00:12:23,036 Speaker 1: from my parents, i'd say, Dorothy, and thinking about your father, 187 00:12:23,476 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: I don't share his sort of utopian view of interracial marriage. 188 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:29,876 Speaker 1: I mean I think probably like like you what you're 189 00:12:29,916 --> 00:12:33,356 Speaker 1: saying that you know, it's beautiful that I have this family, 190 00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 1: and it's you know, wonderful on the personal level. It's 191 00:12:36,316 --> 00:12:40,276 Speaker 1: not going to change structures and injustice or change white supremacy. 192 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:42,116 Speaker 1: And I think that's also the premise of in some 193 00:12:42,156 --> 00:12:45,516 Speaker 1: ways of our Khalil n I on this podcast, that 194 00:12:45,876 --> 00:12:48,596 Speaker 1: we're able to have these conversations across racial lines and 195 00:12:48,636 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 1: we're best friends and we've been best friends for thirty 196 00:12:50,756 --> 00:12:54,796 Speaker 1: five years, but that's that's not the pathway to changing 197 00:12:54,796 --> 00:12:56,996 Speaker 1: these deep structural issues. I mean sort of we're and 198 00:12:57,036 --> 00:12:59,396 Speaker 1: that's kind of what we're wrestling with today. And maybe 199 00:12:59,396 --> 00:13:02,596 Speaker 1: that's a good transition to ask you how in your 200 00:13:02,596 --> 00:13:06,076 Speaker 1: own work, how did you come to focus on black motherhood, 201 00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:10,716 Speaker 1: on reproductive rights and child welfare. What's the story of 202 00:13:10,796 --> 00:13:13,996 Speaker 1: that being the focus of much of your work. Sure, so, 203 00:13:14,156 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 1: I've always been since I was very very young, interested 204 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:24,356 Speaker 1: in social justice issues and active in some way in 205 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:30,476 Speaker 1: fighting against various forms of oppression, but especially racial oppression. 206 00:13:31,236 --> 00:13:36,756 Speaker 1: And I see reproductive injustice as one of the most 207 00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:44,276 Speaker 1: violent and profound, you in a negative way, damaging, dehumanizing 208 00:13:44,996 --> 00:13:51,116 Speaker 1: ways in which racial oppression is enacted. Now that fits 209 00:13:51,116 --> 00:13:56,996 Speaker 1: into my overall passion about racial justice, but in particular 210 00:13:57,796 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen eighties, when I first started law teaching, 211 00:14:02,836 --> 00:14:07,916 Speaker 1: I was reading about the prosecutions of black women who 212 00:14:07,956 --> 00:14:11,276 Speaker 1: were pregnant and using drugs. This is the crack epidemic. 213 00:14:11,556 --> 00:14:15,996 Speaker 1: This is during the crack epidemic and the cracked down 214 00:14:16,436 --> 00:14:22,076 Speaker 1: by federal and local governments on black communities in the 215 00:14:22,156 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 1: name of the war on drugs and focusing on crack 216 00:14:26,236 --> 00:14:31,236 Speaker 1: cocaine as if it were some exceptional, you know, especially violent, 217 00:14:31,556 --> 00:14:35,196 Speaker 1: antisocial kind of drug use. And one aspect of that 218 00:14:35,356 --> 00:14:40,916 Speaker 1: war against black communities was the punishment of black women 219 00:14:41,076 --> 00:14:45,436 Speaker 1: who used drugs and were pregnant, and that grabbed me 220 00:14:46,316 --> 00:14:50,116 Speaker 1: like nothing else. You know, I've thought about why did 221 00:14:50,196 --> 00:14:54,556 Speaker 1: I think that was such a terrible injustice? But I 222 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:58,636 Speaker 1: immediately thought, they are punishing these women for having children. 223 00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 1: And I think there was just something about the punishment 224 00:15:02,996 --> 00:15:07,196 Speaker 1: of reproduction, the punishment of child bearing. That to me 225 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:14,956 Speaker 1: was one of the most insidious, dehumanizing forms of devaluing 226 00:15:15,436 --> 00:15:19,236 Speaker 1: human beings, you know, to say you don't deserve to 227 00:15:19,276 --> 00:15:24,036 Speaker 1: have children, you don't deserve to contribute to our society. 228 00:15:24,116 --> 00:15:28,236 Speaker 1: You're worthless, you're disposable. Even though at the time the 229 00:15:28,316 --> 00:15:32,276 Speaker 1: prosecutions were being portrayed as if they were being done 230 00:15:32,356 --> 00:15:37,636 Speaker 1: to protect black fetuses, I knew that was false, and 231 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:43,916 Speaker 1: I saw this as a form of racial violence against 232 00:15:43,956 --> 00:15:48,356 Speaker 1: these women. And so that's really what propelled me into 233 00:15:48,996 --> 00:15:54,756 Speaker 1: scholarship and into writing an article about the lack of 234 00:15:54,996 --> 00:16:00,116 Speaker 1: constitutional support for these prosecutions, arguing that they violated the 235 00:16:00,156 --> 00:16:04,556 Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment both the right to privacy and equal protection, 236 00:16:05,036 --> 00:16:08,876 Speaker 1: and that that then launched my book, Killing the Black Body, 237 00:16:08,916 --> 00:16:12,876 Speaker 1: because I began to think about all the ways, the 238 00:16:13,116 --> 00:16:17,916 Speaker 1: myriad ways in which black women's childbearing has been punished 239 00:16:17,996 --> 00:16:22,356 Speaker 1: from the time of slavery. Of course, during the slavery era, 240 00:16:22,756 --> 00:16:29,196 Speaker 1: black women's reproduction was commodified, that was forced reproduction, forced 241 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 1: reproductive servitude. But after the slavery era, after slavery ended, 242 00:16:35,596 --> 00:16:40,676 Speaker 1: black women's childbearing continue to be seen as in need 243 00:16:40,716 --> 00:16:44,796 Speaker 1: of white supervision. We could go from the eugenic era 244 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:50,036 Speaker 1: and into the nineteen sixties and seventies with mass sterilization programs, 245 00:16:50,076 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: but then also the impact of welfare restructuring and the 246 00:16:55,516 --> 00:17:00,996 Speaker 1: way in which welfare became especially stigmatized when more and 247 00:17:01,076 --> 00:17:05,556 Speaker 1: more black people were receiving welfare up until the end 248 00:17:05,716 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: of the federal entitlement to welfare, fueled by this image 249 00:17:09,676 --> 00:17:13,396 Speaker 1: of black women who were having babies false image, I 250 00:17:13,396 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 1: should make clear, having babies just to get a welfare check. 251 00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:23,596 Speaker 1: And then I also saw that the state taking away 252 00:17:23,716 --> 00:17:28,596 Speaker 1: their babies through the child welfare system and foster care 253 00:17:29,356 --> 00:17:33,076 Speaker 1: was an extension of that. So in working on killing 254 00:17:33,076 --> 00:17:37,876 Speaker 1: the Black body, I became aware of all the newborns, 255 00:17:37,876 --> 00:17:40,756 Speaker 1: the thousands and thousands of black newborns who were being 256 00:17:40,796 --> 00:17:45,516 Speaker 1: taken from their mothers at birth and put in Many 257 00:17:45,556 --> 00:17:47,396 Speaker 1: of them were left in the hospital. They were called 258 00:17:47,396 --> 00:17:50,996 Speaker 1: border babies or put into foster care. The foster population 259 00:17:51,116 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 1: exploded over the course of this time, and I began 260 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:59,076 Speaker 1: to see, first of all, became aware of this. I 261 00:17:59,236 --> 00:18:03,276 Speaker 1: wasn't I wasn't aware of the huge racial disparities in 262 00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:05,916 Speaker 1: foster care. But once I was aware of it, it 263 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 1: was obvious to me that this was an extension of 264 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:13,476 Speaker 1: the valuation of black mothers that I had written about 265 00:18:13,596 --> 00:18:15,796 Speaker 1: in Killing the Black Body, and that much of my 266 00:18:15,876 --> 00:18:19,516 Speaker 1: book Shattered Bonds the Colored child welfare. Can I take 267 00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:24,076 Speaker 1: a liberty here? This is really rich in terms of 268 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:27,876 Speaker 1: your own intellectual journey to this important issue. I mean, 269 00:18:28,076 --> 00:18:30,796 Speaker 1: what I hear you saying at its root is that 270 00:18:30,916 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 1: the right to have a child is perhaps the most 271 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:38,836 Speaker 1: fundamental expression of being a human being, and that there's 272 00:18:39,196 --> 00:18:43,876 Speaker 1: really no point in the history of black people in 273 00:18:44,036 --> 00:18:48,156 Speaker 1: these United States when the reproductive freedom of black women 274 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:52,156 Speaker 1: wasn't subjected to control by the state in one way 275 00:18:52,236 --> 00:18:56,756 Speaker 1: or another. That's absolutely true. That's really fascinating. And when 276 00:18:56,796 --> 00:18:58,876 Speaker 1: we come back after the break, we're going to talk 277 00:18:58,916 --> 00:19:02,796 Speaker 1: about how these two systems, this system that is born 278 00:19:02,956 --> 00:19:05,996 Speaker 1: out of the War on drugs and the child welfare 279 00:19:06,036 --> 00:19:10,356 Speaker 1: system come together in the problem of separation. And we're 280 00:19:10,356 --> 00:19:13,196 Speaker 1: going to hear the story of one woman's horrifying tale 281 00:19:13,196 --> 00:19:32,356 Speaker 1: of almost losing her child. We'll be right back. We 282 00:19:32,476 --> 00:19:35,356 Speaker 1: are back with Dorothy Roberts, and we're talking about the 283 00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:41,236 Speaker 1: child welfare system and how problematic it is. More than problematic, man, 284 00:19:41,276 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 1: it's been like the primary vehicle for pathologizing blackness. This 285 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 1: is one of her key points in her early work. Yeah, 286 00:19:47,836 --> 00:19:51,436 Speaker 1: that is so right, Khalil Dorothy. You begin your book 287 00:19:51,476 --> 00:19:55,316 Speaker 1: Torn Apart with the story of Vanessa People's. Can you 288 00:19:55,356 --> 00:19:58,756 Speaker 1: tell us what happened to her in twenty seventeen and 289 00:19:58,796 --> 00:20:02,636 Speaker 1: really how her story illustrates the way the child welfare 290 00:20:02,716 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 1: system criminalizes motherhood. Sure. So, Vanessa People's is the young 291 00:20:08,756 --> 00:20:13,916 Speaker 1: mother who lives in Aurora, Colorado, and she was enjoying 292 00:20:14,116 --> 00:20:17,036 Speaker 1: a picnic with her family at a park, a local 293 00:20:17,076 --> 00:20:20,796 Speaker 1: park near her home, and she had asked one of 294 00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:24,716 Speaker 1: her cousins to watch one of her two young children, 295 00:20:24,876 --> 00:20:28,756 Speaker 1: the youngest one a toddler, And when the cousin left 296 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:33,996 Speaker 1: the park, the toddler traps after the cousin before Vanessa, 297 00:20:34,036 --> 00:20:39,156 Speaker 1: who saw this happen like normal family, star, normal Jess. Exactly, 298 00:20:39,636 --> 00:20:42,236 Speaker 1: We've all been there, especially as Dad's where we're not 299 00:20:42,236 --> 00:20:45,556 Speaker 1: paying attention. Exactly, like this happens all the time, exactly 300 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:48,276 Speaker 1: if Vanessa was peg, she was playing with the older 301 00:20:48,356 --> 00:20:51,556 Speaker 1: son and had left the younger one in the cousin's care. 302 00:20:51,636 --> 00:20:54,916 Speaker 1: The cousin left, the whole family was at this park 303 00:20:55,036 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 1: so it's not as if she was abandoning her child. 304 00:20:59,076 --> 00:21:03,916 Speaker 1: He ran after the cousin and in a minute's time 305 00:21:04,436 --> 00:21:09,116 Speaker 1: before Vanessa could catch up with him, a passer by 306 00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:12,916 Speaker 1: I had seen the child in the parking lot and 307 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:17,676 Speaker 1: called nine to one. Vanessa sees this, sees the woman 308 00:21:17,716 --> 00:21:21,756 Speaker 1: on the phone, gets to her and says, that's my son. 309 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:25,956 Speaker 1: The woman is on the phone with the police when 310 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:30,796 Speaker 1: Vanessa arrives and will not give Vanessa her son back. 311 00:21:31,076 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 1: Are you kidding? Really? This person thinks they're doing they're 312 00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:38,956 Speaker 1: saving a child exactly. Vanessa is not in good health. 313 00:21:39,356 --> 00:21:41,916 Speaker 1: She was suffering from anemia and she was being tested 314 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:46,036 Speaker 1: for leukemia. She's not in the position to fight this 315 00:21:46,116 --> 00:21:49,236 Speaker 1: woman over her son, and she figures when the police 316 00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:53,476 Speaker 1: officer arrives, will resolve the whole thing. While the police 317 00:21:53,516 --> 00:21:58,716 Speaker 1: officer arrives and disbelieves, Vanessa doesn't believe that this is 318 00:21:58,756 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 1: really her son. This is unbelievable. The family has to 319 00:22:02,036 --> 00:22:06,436 Speaker 1: come and vouch for her. But the police officer hands 320 00:22:06,556 --> 00:22:11,196 Speaker 1: Vanessa a ticket for child to be use. It turns 321 00:22:11,236 --> 00:22:16,596 Speaker 1: out in Colorado there is a criminal charge of misdemeanor 322 00:22:16,716 --> 00:22:20,756 Speaker 1: child abuse, which doesn't even require any evidence. A physical 323 00:22:20,796 --> 00:22:24,556 Speaker 1: harm to a child. All that happened in this case 324 00:22:24,836 --> 00:22:29,036 Speaker 1: was that her son was separated from her for a 325 00:22:29,316 --> 00:22:34,996 Speaker 1: minute momentarily in her eyesight she could see she could 326 00:22:35,036 --> 00:22:38,796 Speaker 1: see the child, all right. She's now alerted the Child 327 00:22:38,796 --> 00:22:43,396 Speaker 1: Welfare SYS is made aware of her in some way. Absolutely, 328 00:22:43,516 --> 00:22:47,996 Speaker 1: she now is reported to the local child protection office. 329 00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:52,356 Speaker 1: So a few weeks later, Vanessa has just given her 330 00:22:52,396 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 1: two sons a bath. She's cleaning up in the basement. 331 00:22:56,476 --> 00:22:59,476 Speaker 1: She lives with her son in a basement rooms at 332 00:22:59,516 --> 00:23:04,156 Speaker 1: her mother's house, and a white caseworker knocks on the door. 333 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:07,716 Speaker 1: Because once you're under the radar, now they come to 334 00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:12,916 Speaker 1: investigate your home. Yeah, these caseworkers rarely, rarely get a 335 00:23:12,956 --> 00:23:17,356 Speaker 1: warrant to search the home. They don't tell the parents 336 00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 1: that you have a Fourth Amendment right not to have 337 00:23:20,916 --> 00:23:23,716 Speaker 1: government agents. They can restrict. The parents can say you 338 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:26,276 Speaker 1: can't come into my home. Of course, just like you 339 00:23:26,276 --> 00:23:28,956 Speaker 1: could with a police out. You would say, where's your warrant. 340 00:23:28,996 --> 00:23:32,236 Speaker 1: There's no difference. A Fourth Amendment applies to any government 341 00:23:32,316 --> 00:23:35,636 Speaker 1: agent who wants to search your home. But there's been 342 00:23:35,916 --> 00:23:41,676 Speaker 1: effectively an exemption created, unconstitutional exemption. In my opinion, for 343 00:23:41,956 --> 00:23:46,676 Speaker 1: caseworkers undergrounds that they're there to protect children, and this 344 00:23:47,316 --> 00:23:51,636 Speaker 1: also is not uncommon, especially in black neighborhoods, that case 345 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:56,676 Speaker 1: workers bring police along with them. Three police officers arrived. 346 00:23:57,156 --> 00:24:01,076 Speaker 1: One of them pointed a gun. Vanessa's coming up. She 347 00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:05,596 Speaker 1: comes up with a gun pointing at her head. Okay, 348 00:24:05,996 --> 00:24:11,596 Speaker 1: now they start interrogating her. Vanessa is saying, why are 349 00:24:11,636 --> 00:24:14,276 Speaker 1: you in my house? You don't need to be here. 350 00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:17,876 Speaker 1: You see, my children are fine. She calls her mother 351 00:24:17,956 --> 00:24:21,716 Speaker 1: to come. Her mother goes into the bedroom with the 352 00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:26,276 Speaker 1: children and Vanessa wants to come there. The police officer 353 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:30,356 Speaker 1: is guarding the door, saying that the grandmother cannot be 354 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:34,436 Speaker 1: in the room with the children. Vanessa says, let me in. 355 00:24:34,756 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 1: The police officer grabs her by the throat. Two other 356 00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:43,316 Speaker 1: police officers, in addition to the one, jump on top 357 00:24:43,356 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 1: of her what's called hobble her. They hog tie her. 358 00:24:46,956 --> 00:24:51,076 Speaker 1: They chain her arms and her ankles together and then 359 00:24:51,236 --> 00:24:55,276 Speaker 1: chain them together, carry her out the house upside down, 360 00:24:55,636 --> 00:24:58,436 Speaker 1: like she says, like a pig, Like a pig, like 361 00:24:58,516 --> 00:25:02,396 Speaker 1: an animal. And not only does she go through this trauma, 362 00:25:02,436 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 1: her children are witnessing all of this. Yeah, the idea 363 00:25:05,916 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 1: that they're being protected. They're subjected to this. But the 364 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:13,156 Speaker 1: upshot of this is that Vanessa now is registered in 365 00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:16,476 Speaker 1: the state of Colorado as a child abuser. It's pretty 366 00:25:16,556 --> 00:25:19,036 Speaker 1: much the worst stigma you can have. We have a 367 00:25:19,076 --> 00:25:22,476 Speaker 1: clip of Vanessa Peoples who is telling CBS News about 368 00:25:22,516 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 1: this harrowing experience and how it really ruined her life. 369 00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:30,596 Speaker 1: I can't get jobs, i can't even get housing. I'm 370 00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:34,956 Speaker 1: still living with my mom. The fact that someone else 371 00:25:36,196 --> 00:25:40,916 Speaker 1: intervened in my life. I'm stuck at zero. And it's 372 00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:44,236 Speaker 1: just an example of the kind of violence that this 373 00:25:45,116 --> 00:25:49,636 Speaker 1: system inflicts on families. Fortunately they didn't take her children 374 00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:54,596 Speaker 1: from her, but in tens of thousands of cases, especially 375 00:25:54,876 --> 00:26:00,236 Speaker 1: black and Native children are taken from their families, actually 376 00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:04,036 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands every year, taken from their families and 377 00:26:04,116 --> 00:26:08,516 Speaker 1: put in foster care, which is itself a damaging system. 378 00:26:09,236 --> 00:26:13,036 Speaker 1: Just mounds and amounts of research showing that foster care 379 00:26:13,396 --> 00:26:17,116 Speaker 1: is a pathway to prison j given out the tension, homelessness, 380 00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:22,836 Speaker 1: drug addiction, mental health problems. You know, not to say 381 00:26:22,876 --> 00:26:26,516 Speaker 1: that every child who's been in foster care suffers from these, 382 00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:31,236 Speaker 1: but you're at greater risk than others in the population 383 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: of having these very negative outcomes as a result of 384 00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:40,316 Speaker 1: being in foster care. You know, when I read what 385 00:26:40,436 --> 00:26:45,276 Speaker 1: you described of Vanessa's story and her children and the outcome, 386 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:49,116 Speaker 1: I found it deeply upsetting. And I've written about the 387 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 1: origins of racial criminalization, and just before Thanksgiving contributed as 388 00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:57,276 Speaker 1: a co chair of the National Academies of Sciences report 389 00:26:57,556 --> 00:27:01,156 Speaker 1: on how to Reduce racial inequality in crime. We call 390 00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:04,116 Speaker 1: it in crime and justice rather than in the criminal 391 00:27:04,156 --> 00:27:06,836 Speaker 1: justice system. And in that report, one of the things 392 00:27:06,836 --> 00:27:10,676 Speaker 1: that we say is that we all to rely less 393 00:27:10,756 --> 00:27:14,636 Speaker 1: on the criminal punishment system and more on other systems, 394 00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:18,476 Speaker 1: even with their flaws, because they are less viscerally lethal 395 00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:21,236 Speaker 1: in terms of contact with them, like sending in our 396 00:27:21,316 --> 00:27:23,796 Speaker 1: first responder who might be part of the child welfare system. 397 00:27:23,836 --> 00:27:26,396 Speaker 1: Is that what you mean, that's correct or caseworker. And 398 00:27:26,436 --> 00:27:30,196 Speaker 1: there are alternatives to this being called upon in cities 399 00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:32,756 Speaker 1: across the country, and some of this is being stood 400 00:27:32,796 --> 00:27:36,036 Speaker 1: up right now in terms of police diverting a call 401 00:27:36,156 --> 00:27:39,836 Speaker 1: a non emergency call to the child welfare system or 402 00:27:39,876 --> 00:27:43,876 Speaker 1: the mental health sector. And after reading more of your work, Dorothea, 403 00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:46,836 Speaker 1: I have to say, I mean it was devastating because 404 00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:49,796 Speaker 1: I felt like if Ben and I've been writing about 405 00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:52,676 Speaker 1: the story of mass incarceration, you know, I would say 406 00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:54,836 Speaker 1: my interpretation of what you've been writing about is a 407 00:27:54,876 --> 00:27:58,996 Speaker 1: story of mass separation. Yes, this history since the nineteen sixties, 408 00:27:58,996 --> 00:28:04,156 Speaker 1: of this skyrocketing foster care system that's doubled on itself 409 00:28:04,156 --> 00:28:06,556 Speaker 1: from I think you say in nineteen eighty five there 410 00:28:06,556 --> 00:28:09,756 Speaker 1: were two hundred and seventy six thousand people. By ninety nine, 411 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:11,836 Speaker 1: less than twenty years later, there are five hundred and 412 00:28:11,836 --> 00:28:14,036 Speaker 1: sixty eight thousand. I mean, you know the system bed 413 00:28:14,116 --> 00:28:17,476 Speaker 1: in the nest, right, what is the scale of this thing? Yes, 414 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:22,676 Speaker 1: so you're right. By the late nineteen nineties, there were 415 00:28:22,716 --> 00:28:26,316 Speaker 1: almost six hundred thousand children in the foster care system, 416 00:28:26,516 --> 00:28:30,716 Speaker 1: and black children were the largest group in foster care, 417 00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:33,796 Speaker 1: four times as likely as white children to be taken 418 00:28:33,836 --> 00:28:38,836 Speaker 1: from their families. Now, the disparities have shrunk somewhat, and 419 00:28:39,396 --> 00:28:43,236 Speaker 1: the foster care population has gone down somewhat, but it's 420 00:28:43,276 --> 00:28:47,836 Speaker 1: still hundreds of thousands of children, like four hundred thousand 421 00:28:47,916 --> 00:28:51,436 Speaker 1: I think exactly more than four hundred thousand children, and 422 00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:55,596 Speaker 1: black children still are twice as likely to be separated, 423 00:28:55,636 --> 00:28:59,996 Speaker 1: and one finding that from a recent study that I 424 00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:03,676 Speaker 1: didn't know about. When I wrote Shattered Bonds, I've included 425 00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:07,596 Speaker 1: it in torn Apart, is that half of Black children, 426 00:29:07,596 --> 00:29:10,436 Speaker 1: more than half of black children, fifty three percent, will 427 00:29:10,516 --> 00:29:13,916 Speaker 1: be subject to a child welfare investigation before they reach 428 00:29:14,076 --> 00:29:17,596 Speaker 1: aga teen. That is incredible. Half of all Black children 429 00:29:17,596 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: in America, half of all Black children America will experience this. 430 00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:25,556 Speaker 1: It's so huge, it's so huge, But it's also in 431 00:29:25,676 --> 00:29:28,036 Speaker 1: terribly for frustrating because I'm sitting here and I mean, 432 00:29:28,036 --> 00:29:30,516 Speaker 1: I told I shared this with Been even in preparations. 433 00:29:30,556 --> 00:29:33,276 Speaker 1: Conversation like you know, brought tears Tomise, because I'm like, 434 00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:35,156 Speaker 1: how did I not even know? Yes? And how is 435 00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:37,916 Speaker 1: it possible that the three of us are in this 436 00:29:37,956 --> 00:29:42,916 Speaker 1: conversation and we're both expressing our own ignorance about how 437 00:29:42,956 --> 00:29:47,396 Speaker 1: pervasive and punitive and devastating the system is. I'd even 438 00:29:47,436 --> 00:29:49,756 Speaker 1: add to that, Khalil, like we think of the child 439 00:29:49,796 --> 00:29:52,876 Speaker 1: welfare system as a force for good of taking care 440 00:29:52,916 --> 00:29:56,396 Speaker 1: of the neediest. Yes, and you know that you're educating 441 00:29:56,516 --> 00:29:59,436 Speaker 1: us that it's actually a force for harm, that it 442 00:29:59,476 --> 00:30:03,156 Speaker 1: does much much more harm than good. Absolutely, So I 443 00:30:03,196 --> 00:30:05,476 Speaker 1: was not aware of the harm. I only became aware 444 00:30:05,476 --> 00:30:07,876 Speaker 1: of it because of the work I was doing on 445 00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:12,196 Speaker 1: the prosecutions of black mothers, have discovered that they're newborns 446 00:30:12,196 --> 00:30:15,596 Speaker 1: who are being taken from them by the system. And 447 00:30:15,836 --> 00:30:18,756 Speaker 1: I think the system has just done a great job 448 00:30:18,796 --> 00:30:23,636 Speaker 1: at propaganda, and the media until very recently, has gone 449 00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:26,636 Speaker 1: along with it. Often the story goes the opposite way 450 00:30:26,836 --> 00:30:30,196 Speaker 1: that there'll be a case of a parent who harms 451 00:30:30,196 --> 00:30:33,396 Speaker 1: a child or even murders a child, and this is 452 00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:35,916 Speaker 1: very much like the criminal justice system. There'll be an 453 00:30:35,916 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 1: extreme case of crime or abuse, and then that sparks 454 00:30:39,956 --> 00:30:45,396 Speaker 1: more emphasis and investment in expanding the system and investigations. Yes, 455 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:49,156 Speaker 1: that you're right, the parallels to the criminal justice system 456 00:30:49,196 --> 00:30:51,716 Speaker 1: are all over the place. I took this status from 457 00:30:51,756 --> 00:30:53,956 Speaker 1: your own work, but they're about sixteen percent of the 458 00:30:53,956 --> 00:30:57,876 Speaker 1: cases are of physical or sexual abuse, where a casework 459 00:30:57,956 --> 00:31:00,196 Speaker 1: will go in and protect a child from those but 460 00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:02,716 Speaker 1: the vast majority of the rest of the eighty four percent, 461 00:31:03,156 --> 00:31:07,196 Speaker 1: which are considered neglect are usually issues of poverty. It's 462 00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:11,356 Speaker 1: punishing need that these are parts who actually could use 463 00:31:11,436 --> 00:31:15,436 Speaker 1: much more investment. And I'm thinking about another corollary between 464 00:31:15,436 --> 00:31:18,036 Speaker 1: this and policing that when a caseworker shows up, when 465 00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:21,116 Speaker 1: a child productive surfaces shows up. The only tool they 466 00:31:21,156 --> 00:31:24,276 Speaker 1: have to help to help in quotes, is removed. They 467 00:31:24,316 --> 00:31:27,156 Speaker 1: can't help someone with housing, they can't help them with food, 468 00:31:27,196 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 1: they can't help them with clothes, they can't help them 469 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:32,756 Speaker 1: with a job or with education. Inherent with childcare. The 470 00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:34,356 Speaker 1: only thing that they could do is say I'm going 471 00:31:34,436 --> 00:31:37,676 Speaker 1: to take the child exactly. That is the primary tool 472 00:31:37,796 --> 00:31:41,916 Speaker 1: of this system, So it's both practically that's what the 473 00:31:41,996 --> 00:31:46,076 Speaker 1: caseworker has to deal with the problems the family is encountering, 474 00:31:46,476 --> 00:31:51,276 Speaker 1: which mostly are problems of poverty. Neglect means failure to 475 00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: meet the needs of a child, and usually parents who 476 00:31:55,516 --> 00:31:57,956 Speaker 1: don't meet the needs of their children. It's not because 477 00:31:57,996 --> 00:32:01,316 Speaker 1: they're deliberately withholding food that they have. It's not because 478 00:32:01,356 --> 00:32:06,156 Speaker 1: they're deliberately withholding clothing or housing. They're not living in 479 00:32:06,156 --> 00:32:09,796 Speaker 1: the hall with shelter because they want to neglect their child. 480 00:32:10,116 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 1: They're living there because there isn't affordable housing in their city. 481 00:32:14,356 --> 00:32:18,316 Speaker 1: And so the response is to take the children away 482 00:32:18,436 --> 00:32:21,956 Speaker 1: and then require the parents or other family caregivers to 483 00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:27,996 Speaker 1: somehow come up with the answers. And on top of that, 484 00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:31,836 Speaker 1: they're given these therapeutic remedies. You know, they have to 485 00:32:31,876 --> 00:32:35,156 Speaker 1: go to various kinds of counselors and I have to 486 00:32:35,196 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 1: take parent training classes. So it makes it even more difficult. 487 00:32:38,836 --> 00:32:41,956 Speaker 1: As I mentioned the case of Vanessa People's it made 488 00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:44,676 Speaker 1: her life more difficult to get involved with this system. 489 00:32:45,076 --> 00:32:47,556 Speaker 1: It's harder for her to take care of her children now. 490 00:32:47,916 --> 00:32:52,116 Speaker 1: And so yes, this is a system that punishes poverty. 491 00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:57,596 Speaker 1: It diverts attention away from all the structural impediments to 492 00:32:57,796 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 1: meeting children's needs and blames parents for it. It polices 493 00:33:02,956 --> 00:33:06,716 Speaker 1: families instead of supporting families. This is really enlightening, I 494 00:33:06,756 --> 00:33:09,716 Speaker 1: think I can say forbidding me and I certainly many 495 00:33:09,756 --> 00:33:12,196 Speaker 1: of our listeners are learning a lot. We've been talking 496 00:33:12,236 --> 00:33:17,516 Speaker 1: to the professor scholar in various advocacy and activist circles 497 00:33:17,596 --> 00:33:24,356 Speaker 1: around black motherhood and particularly reproductive rights and bringing together 498 00:33:24,716 --> 00:33:27,196 Speaker 1: the right to control one's body, including the fight for 499 00:33:27,316 --> 00:33:29,716 Speaker 1: racial and social justice. And when we come back from 500 00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:31,676 Speaker 1: the break, we're going to talk about the recent Adopts 501 00:33:31,716 --> 00:33:36,276 Speaker 1: decision and how this is really something that Dorothy saw 502 00:33:36,356 --> 00:33:39,476 Speaker 1: coming many decades ago when she first started this work, 503 00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:42,476 Speaker 1: because she could see the limits of Rob Wade and 504 00:33:42,476 --> 00:33:44,876 Speaker 1: what they provided we'll be right back after the break. 505 00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:09,236 Speaker 1: We are back on some of my best friends are 506 00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:13,076 Speaker 1: We're here with Dorothy Roberts. Dorothy. We are at the 507 00:34:13,156 --> 00:34:16,476 Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision. And last 508 00:34:16,556 --> 00:34:19,676 Speaker 1: year we had this other Supreme Court ruling, the Dab's decision, 509 00:34:20,316 --> 00:34:22,996 Speaker 1: that said there was no constitutional right to an abortion. 510 00:34:23,236 --> 00:34:26,276 Speaker 1: It sort of nullifies Rove Wade, And I wanted to 511 00:34:26,276 --> 00:34:29,876 Speaker 1: ask you first, what did Roe achieve and what didn't 512 00:34:29,876 --> 00:34:36,236 Speaker 1: it achieve. Rowe achieved a recognition that the Constitution protects 513 00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:41,516 Speaker 1: the right to abortion, and so it protected us against 514 00:34:41,756 --> 00:34:46,076 Speaker 1: government bans on abortion. It protected us against criminalizing abortion. 515 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:52,716 Speaker 1: But what it did not achieve was recognizing the full 516 00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:56,796 Speaker 1: scope of reproductive freedom we should have. So it did 517 00:34:56,876 --> 00:35:01,516 Speaker 1: not provide for government funding for abortion, for example. It 518 00:35:01,556 --> 00:35:06,436 Speaker 1: did not recognize the ways in which structural inequities prevent 519 00:35:06,636 --> 00:35:11,796 Speaker 1: people from having truly free reproductive lives. It didn't address 520 00:35:12,036 --> 00:35:17,836 Speaker 1: all the policies that devalue black people's reproduction, for example, 521 00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:22,236 Speaker 1: that have devalued black women's child bearing. So it didn't 522 00:35:22,436 --> 00:35:27,316 Speaker 1: recognize the full scope of our reproductive lives that include 523 00:35:27,396 --> 00:35:31,356 Speaker 1: not only the ability not to have a child, to 524 00:35:31,476 --> 00:35:36,156 Speaker 1: terminate a pregnancy, but also the ability to have a 525 00:35:36,236 --> 00:35:42,196 Speaker 1: child and to be supported in raising that child. Those 526 00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:46,836 Speaker 1: second two aspects of reproductive freedom were not touched upon 527 00:35:46,916 --> 00:35:51,316 Speaker 1: at all in row versus way, nor did Row recognize 528 00:35:51,556 --> 00:35:59,316 Speaker 1: the need for support for actually effectuating a reproductive decision. Yeah, 529 00:35:59,356 --> 00:36:01,476 Speaker 1: this is one of the things I was so excited 530 00:36:01,516 --> 00:36:04,476 Speaker 1: to talk to you about, because when Dobbs first happened, 531 00:36:04,516 --> 00:36:07,996 Speaker 1: I had this really perplexed problem. I'm thinking to myself, 532 00:36:08,036 --> 00:36:10,996 Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a minute, I know that on the 533 00:36:11,036 --> 00:36:15,596 Speaker 1: literal right side of our political divide, that there are 534 00:36:15,636 --> 00:36:19,076 Speaker 1: white nationalists and white supremacists who are invested in this 535 00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:22,316 Speaker 1: replacement theory, which is that they won't be replaced, that 536 00:36:22,356 --> 00:36:26,076 Speaker 1: we have to save America for white Christians. And so 537 00:36:26,116 --> 00:36:30,356 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that if abortions increase the likelihood that black 538 00:36:30,356 --> 00:36:34,276 Speaker 1: women will have fewer babies, isn't this a contradiction with 539 00:36:34,316 --> 00:36:39,316 Speaker 1: the politics of Dobbs. And it wasn't until I dug 540 00:36:39,356 --> 00:36:43,796 Speaker 1: into your work that I understood that what you've been 541 00:36:43,876 --> 00:36:48,596 Speaker 1: saying is that the entire movement for abortion was really 542 00:36:48,636 --> 00:36:52,316 Speaker 1: not the issue that black women wanted to protect in 543 00:36:52,396 --> 00:36:55,516 Speaker 1: terms of the reproductive freedom. Surely they did want access 544 00:36:55,596 --> 00:36:59,196 Speaker 1: to it, but what they wanted was full control over 545 00:36:59,236 --> 00:37:04,116 Speaker 1: their bodies. And unlike white women, their bodies had been 546 00:37:04,196 --> 00:37:10,996 Speaker 1: subjected to increased state interventions since ROW and even before ROW, 547 00:37:11,476 --> 00:37:14,996 Speaker 1: and so ROW didn't protect them. So tell us particularly, 548 00:37:14,996 --> 00:37:19,196 Speaker 1: how we are to understand that at some point in 549 00:37:19,236 --> 00:37:23,276 Speaker 1: the very recent past, the state increased its capacity to 550 00:37:23,396 --> 00:37:26,596 Speaker 1: essentially either force birth control on women or to outright 551 00:37:26,676 --> 00:37:31,476 Speaker 1: sterilize Black women. We have to distinguish between birth control 552 00:37:31,676 --> 00:37:34,956 Speaker 1: as a form of reproductive freedom that's in the control 553 00:37:34,996 --> 00:37:38,716 Speaker 1: of the person who's using it for themselves, and birth 554 00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:43,636 Speaker 1: control is a form of population control. So similarly, black 555 00:37:43,716 --> 00:37:48,796 Speaker 1: women have demanded access to all forms of birth control, 556 00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:56,716 Speaker 1: including abortion, and we should be able to have birth control, 557 00:37:57,116 --> 00:38:01,396 Speaker 1: including abortion, if we want it. But at the same time, 558 00:38:01,556 --> 00:38:07,116 Speaker 1: throughout the nineteen sixties and seventies, there were government programs, 559 00:38:07,476 --> 00:38:13,996 Speaker 1: federally funded government programs that forced sterilization on black women. 560 00:38:14,716 --> 00:38:18,676 Speaker 1: An example is the Ralph Sisters. These two young women 561 00:38:18,716 --> 00:38:25,036 Speaker 1: teenagers in Alabama, who were sterilized without their consent, even 562 00:38:25,516 --> 00:38:28,836 Speaker 1: when their mothers signed a form with an X she 563 00:38:28,996 --> 00:38:33,196 Speaker 1: was an illiterate sharecropper. They became the name plaintiffs of 564 00:38:33,236 --> 00:38:37,516 Speaker 1: a big class action lawsuit that revealed that hundreds of 565 00:38:37,596 --> 00:38:42,676 Speaker 1: thousands of people in recent years had been sterilized under 566 00:38:42,756 --> 00:38:48,356 Speaker 1: these programs. Now, the programs would force people to a 567 00:38:48,516 --> 00:38:52,316 Speaker 1: so called agreed a sterilization in order to get healthcare 568 00:38:52,436 --> 00:38:56,356 Speaker 1: or in order to get welfare benefits. In North Carolina, 569 00:38:56,516 --> 00:39:01,316 Speaker 1: the Eugenics Board operated into the nineteen seventies, and by 570 00:39:01,316 --> 00:39:06,636 Speaker 1: the time it was exposed, it was mostly forcing sterilizations 571 00:39:06,836 --> 00:39:11,316 Speaker 1: on impoverished black women, black women who received welfare benefits. 572 00:39:11,556 --> 00:39:15,836 Speaker 1: So the state itself is actually trading its public goods, 573 00:39:15,836 --> 00:39:19,116 Speaker 1: its resources, it's welfare benefits, whether it's food stamps or 574 00:39:19,156 --> 00:39:22,356 Speaker 1: access to housing, as a way of saying, you can 575 00:39:22,476 --> 00:39:25,916 Speaker 1: have these things if we take away your right to 576 00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:30,036 Speaker 1: bear children. Absolutely, this is a very common idea in 577 00:39:30,196 --> 00:39:34,316 Speaker 1: welfare policy in the United States. I want to ask 578 00:39:34,316 --> 00:39:36,676 Speaker 1: you to connect the dots for me. Okay, tell me 579 00:39:36,796 --> 00:39:40,316 Speaker 1: how that leads to the dab's decision. Okay. So my 580 00:39:40,436 --> 00:39:44,796 Speaker 1: first point is we have to understand that reproductive freedom 581 00:39:44,876 --> 00:39:49,916 Speaker 1: involves resisting ending all of these forms of reproductive violence. 582 00:39:49,996 --> 00:39:55,476 Speaker 1: Whether it's control over the ability to end a pregnancy 583 00:39:55,476 --> 00:39:58,876 Speaker 1: in other words, forcing someone to give birth, or whether 584 00:39:58,996 --> 00:40:02,796 Speaker 1: it's denying someone the ability to give birth, and that 585 00:40:03,316 --> 00:40:06,716 Speaker 1: denial can be through sterilization, it could be through welfare policies, 586 00:40:07,036 --> 00:40:12,156 Speaker 1: other kinds of policies that pressure people not to have children. 587 00:40:12,796 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 1: So when khalils as well, it seems like a like 588 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:19,916 Speaker 1: a contradiction that you would support a ban on abortion 589 00:40:20,356 --> 00:40:25,796 Speaker 1: but also support a policy that would discourage black women 590 00:40:25,836 --> 00:40:29,316 Speaker 1: from having children. Well, it's it's not a contradiction because 591 00:40:29,356 --> 00:40:34,476 Speaker 1: they're both policies that deny Black women and others. But 592 00:40:34,556 --> 00:40:37,236 Speaker 1: let's focus on black women for a minute, the ability 593 00:40:37,316 --> 00:40:41,316 Speaker 1: to control their own reproductive lives. And by the way, 594 00:40:41,356 --> 00:40:44,956 Speaker 1: when you are in a position where you cannot afford 595 00:40:44,996 --> 00:40:48,716 Speaker 1: another child, you can't get an abortion, you are pressured 596 00:40:49,276 --> 00:40:54,076 Speaker 1: into being sterilized. So I see no contradiction. Yeah, that's 597 00:40:54,196 --> 00:40:57,836 Speaker 1: really helpful. Yeah, they don't want more Black children born. 598 00:40:57,956 --> 00:41:00,956 Speaker 1: What they want is more Black women to be sterilized. 599 00:41:01,356 --> 00:41:04,796 Speaker 1: And that is the pressure that you feel. You can't 600 00:41:04,836 --> 00:41:08,116 Speaker 1: get government support to take care of your child, you 601 00:41:08,156 --> 00:41:11,036 Speaker 1: can't get at us to abortion, what are you going 602 00:41:11,116 --> 00:41:15,316 Speaker 1: to do? Believe me, they will fund your sterilization in 603 00:41:15,356 --> 00:41:18,916 Speaker 1: a minute and you won't have any trouble getting sterilized. 604 00:41:19,196 --> 00:41:22,396 Speaker 1: Is it possible then that we will see legislation in 605 00:41:22,476 --> 00:41:26,956 Speaker 1: some near future that will begin to invest in birth 606 00:41:26,996 --> 00:41:29,676 Speaker 1: control at the state level to achieve just this purpose. 607 00:41:29,836 --> 00:41:32,316 Speaker 1: In light of DABS decision, well, I would say we 608 00:41:32,356 --> 00:41:36,236 Speaker 1: already have it, but I think it may become more 609 00:41:36,316 --> 00:41:39,636 Speaker 1: explicit and more obvious. Now let me let me say 610 00:41:39,636 --> 00:41:46,036 Speaker 1: another connection between jobs and family policing and these other 611 00:41:46,156 --> 00:41:49,956 Speaker 1: forms of reproductive violence. What is going to happen as 612 00:41:49,956 --> 00:41:54,796 Speaker 1: a result of jobs is that people who decided, knowing 613 00:41:54,836 --> 00:41:59,716 Speaker 1: their own life circumstances, they cannot manage another child, and 614 00:41:59,796 --> 00:42:02,516 Speaker 1: are yet are forced to give birth to that child. 615 00:42:03,036 --> 00:42:06,596 Speaker 1: In most cases, they will keep the child, and they 616 00:42:06,636 --> 00:42:09,716 Speaker 1: will be now at risk of having their children taken 617 00:42:09,756 --> 00:42:13,876 Speaker 1: from them by the family policing system because they're struggling 618 00:42:13,916 --> 00:42:17,876 Speaker 1: to take care of the child. The dob's decision explicitly 619 00:42:18,436 --> 00:42:22,316 Speaker 1: suggests that what should happen to children in those cases 620 00:42:22,396 --> 00:42:25,756 Speaker 1: babies born as a result of abortion bands is that 621 00:42:25,796 --> 00:42:30,116 Speaker 1: their parents should give them up for adoption. Justice Amy 622 00:42:30,156 --> 00:42:33,956 Speaker 1: Coney Barrett suggested this during the oral argument, and then 623 00:42:33,996 --> 00:42:40,716 Speaker 1: Alito puts in the majority opinion a favorable suggestion that 624 00:42:41,116 --> 00:42:43,716 Speaker 1: people can just drop off the babies at these safe 625 00:42:43,716 --> 00:42:47,356 Speaker 1: haven places for people who want to give up their babies, 626 00:42:47,636 --> 00:42:51,876 Speaker 1: and then drops the footnote about the unmet demand for 627 00:42:51,956 --> 00:42:57,476 Speaker 1: adoptable children, as if these children should just be commodities 628 00:42:57,516 --> 00:43:02,436 Speaker 1: in a market for adoption that probably is not gonna have. 629 00:43:02,476 --> 00:43:04,196 Speaker 1: The way in which these children are going to end 630 00:43:04,276 --> 00:43:08,276 Speaker 1: up in the market for adoption is that their children 631 00:43:08,356 --> 00:43:11,836 Speaker 1: will be for possibly taken from them by the family 632 00:43:11,876 --> 00:43:16,636 Speaker 1: policing system, parents' rights terminated, and the children become available 633 00:43:16,636 --> 00:43:19,556 Speaker 1: for adoption. But even that is a false picture to 634 00:43:19,556 --> 00:43:23,436 Speaker 1: some extent, because black children are the least likely to 635 00:43:23,476 --> 00:43:26,916 Speaker 1: be adopted, they're the most likely to stay in foster care, 636 00:43:27,156 --> 00:43:30,596 Speaker 1: the most likely to age out of foster care. So 637 00:43:31,356 --> 00:43:36,076 Speaker 1: we have to see these connections between criminalization of parenting 638 00:43:36,156 --> 00:43:44,076 Speaker 1: and pregnancy, family policing, and the end of any entitlement 639 00:43:44,156 --> 00:43:48,196 Speaker 1: to support for your children. And Dobbs is going to 640 00:43:48,276 --> 00:43:52,636 Speaker 1: intensify that because it is going to force people who 641 00:43:52,756 --> 00:43:56,796 Speaker 1: are unable to meet children's needs, who've made the decision 642 00:43:56,956 --> 00:44:01,036 Speaker 1: I cannot manage this child, force them to give birth, 643 00:44:01,316 --> 00:44:04,356 Speaker 1: and then punish them when they're unable to meet that 644 00:44:04,516 --> 00:44:07,756 Speaker 1: baby's needs. Dorothy, one of the things I'm hearing in 645 00:44:07,796 --> 00:44:11,316 Speaker 1: all of your work in terms of resisting and fighting 646 00:44:11,356 --> 00:44:15,916 Speaker 1: against the dab's decision, fighting for women's reproductive freedom. Is 647 00:44:15,956 --> 00:44:19,516 Speaker 1: the need to link those fights to the fight against 648 00:44:19,516 --> 00:44:22,956 Speaker 1: systemic racism, to all of these historical problems. We can't 649 00:44:22,996 --> 00:44:26,756 Speaker 1: think of them separately. Yes. And the other thing that 650 00:44:26,756 --> 00:44:28,596 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about, because we talk so much about the 651 00:44:28,676 --> 00:44:31,716 Speaker 1: child welfare system, is how you call for the abolition 652 00:44:31,756 --> 00:44:34,076 Speaker 1: of the child welfare system. You think it's such a 653 00:44:34,156 --> 00:44:37,116 Speaker 1: troubled and oppressive system that we need to scrap it. 654 00:44:37,516 --> 00:44:41,956 Speaker 1: And it's not like that's not something we've tried, Like 655 00:44:41,956 --> 00:44:44,556 Speaker 1: like you've talked about this that during the COVID nineteen 656 00:44:44,596 --> 00:44:48,236 Speaker 1: pandemic that we actually had a sort of trial run 657 00:44:48,316 --> 00:44:51,716 Speaker 1: with getting rid of the child welfare system. That's right, 658 00:44:52,276 --> 00:44:55,396 Speaker 1: because you know, people, not surprisingly are concerned, well, if 659 00:44:55,436 --> 00:44:58,396 Speaker 1: we get rid of it, what's going to protect children? 660 00:44:58,876 --> 00:45:05,236 Speaker 1: And we know that children can remain safe without this system, 661 00:45:05,276 --> 00:45:08,676 Speaker 1: because we have examples of that. And one very telling 662 00:45:08,716 --> 00:45:15,116 Speaker 1: exam is the unintended abolition of family policing during the 663 00:45:15,156 --> 00:45:18,356 Speaker 1: pandemic in New York City and the Cares Act, which 664 00:45:18,356 --> 00:45:22,076 Speaker 1: in itself did more to reduce poverty in a faster 665 00:45:22,156 --> 00:45:23,996 Speaker 1: time than anything else in the history of the country 666 00:45:24,316 --> 00:45:29,036 Speaker 1: childhood poverty exactly. So we know from the evidence from 667 00:45:29,076 --> 00:45:31,476 Speaker 1: the Cares Act and other studies as well that have 668 00:45:31,636 --> 00:45:35,556 Speaker 1: looked at what happens when you actually give impoverished families 669 00:45:35,756 --> 00:45:39,556 Speaker 1: extra income, you know, and as if we needed a 670 00:45:39,596 --> 00:45:43,476 Speaker 1: study to figure this out, but studies have shown the 671 00:45:43,716 --> 00:45:47,796 Speaker 1: child poverty goes down, children fare better. And so that's 672 00:45:47,836 --> 00:45:52,476 Speaker 1: what happened during the pandemic. Child poverty went down and 673 00:45:52,796 --> 00:45:57,716 Speaker 1: children stayed safe. Now not only because of the government 674 00:45:57,756 --> 00:46:02,236 Speaker 1: infusion of supplemental income to these families, but also in 675 00:46:02,236 --> 00:46:05,356 Speaker 1: New York City in particular, there was a strong network 676 00:46:05,356 --> 00:46:12,116 Speaker 1: of mutual aid organizations that sprang into action and distributed 677 00:46:12,836 --> 00:46:18,676 Speaker 1: material resources to families. And so that those two things 678 00:46:18,716 --> 00:46:22,956 Speaker 1: are important components of what abolition is about. It's not 679 00:46:22,996 --> 00:46:27,396 Speaker 1: just about dismantling the oppressive system. It's also about building 680 00:46:27,396 --> 00:46:32,076 Speaker 1: a replacement that actually supports families and keeps children safe. 681 00:46:32,396 --> 00:46:35,636 Speaker 1: And so that could include a change of government policy 682 00:46:35,716 --> 00:46:41,876 Speaker 1: to provide income to impoverished families, but also importantly mutual 683 00:46:41,996 --> 00:46:46,876 Speaker 1: aid community based networks that provide the material resources that 684 00:46:46,996 --> 00:46:51,316 Speaker 1: families need. Well. I think that it goes without saying 685 00:46:51,516 --> 00:46:56,316 Speaker 1: that what you've shared with us everyone should know period Hardstole. 686 00:46:56,396 --> 00:46:59,756 Speaker 1: I mean, if the story of the New Gemcrow, as 687 00:46:59,796 --> 00:47:03,156 Speaker 1: Michelle Alexander once described it, or as the references that 688 00:47:03,236 --> 00:47:07,236 Speaker 1: you have in your book of the punitive welfare child 689 00:47:07,236 --> 00:47:11,036 Speaker 1: welfare system as the new Jane Crow, we are past 690 00:47:11,116 --> 00:47:16,116 Speaker 1: time to see the fullness of this really nvidious system. 691 00:47:16,476 --> 00:47:21,556 Speaker 1: And I'm just really grateful that you've dedicated all of 692 00:47:21,596 --> 00:47:25,036 Speaker 1: your career to drawing our attention to this. And while 693 00:47:25,836 --> 00:47:29,316 Speaker 1: I remain hopeful in this moment that we see things 694 00:47:29,316 --> 00:47:32,836 Speaker 1: with clarity as the predicate for the possibility of change, 695 00:47:33,156 --> 00:47:35,716 Speaker 1: I also am a realist. We've got a really tough 696 00:47:35,756 --> 00:47:38,796 Speaker 1: fight ahead of us, and this is not an easy 697 00:47:38,876 --> 00:47:42,796 Speaker 1: subject to master, but you've done it. And so Dorothy Roberts, 698 00:47:42,836 --> 00:47:45,756 Speaker 1: thank you so much for all your work, for your 699 00:47:45,796 --> 00:47:49,436 Speaker 1: tireless commitment to justice, and for helping us see what 700 00:47:49,476 --> 00:47:51,516 Speaker 1: we should have seen a long time ago. But now 701 00:47:51,916 --> 00:47:54,036 Speaker 1: now that we can't unsee it, we have our work 702 00:47:54,036 --> 00:47:57,436 Speaker 1: cut out for us. Thank you well. Thank you so much. 703 00:47:57,516 --> 00:48:00,356 Speaker 1: Kill Will and Ben I really enjoyed speaking with you. 704 00:48:01,156 --> 00:48:05,196 Speaker 1: We have to work together collectively in these movements, and 705 00:48:05,996 --> 00:48:10,716 Speaker 1: the movement to end carcera logics and punitive approaches to 706 00:48:10,836 --> 00:48:13,876 Speaker 1: human needs. I think it's going to be stronger than ever, 707 00:48:14,276 --> 00:48:16,836 Speaker 1: and that that's my hope. Thank you so much, Dorothy, 708 00:48:16,956 --> 00:48:28,596 Speaker 1: This is inspiring. Thank you. Damn well. That was a lot, 709 00:48:28,996 --> 00:48:32,676 Speaker 1: and man, it was so interesting to hear how interconnected 710 00:48:32,716 --> 00:48:34,756 Speaker 1: all these things are. Yeah, no, I mean I feel 711 00:48:34,756 --> 00:48:37,636 Speaker 1: the same way as I said to you. This was 712 00:48:37,716 --> 00:48:39,996 Speaker 1: very emotional for me. And one of the reasons why 713 00:48:40,156 --> 00:48:43,796 Speaker 1: is because all my kids, dude ran away. You know, 714 00:48:43,836 --> 00:48:46,076 Speaker 1: at some point they ran away from home. Well not 715 00:48:46,116 --> 00:48:48,156 Speaker 1: exactly home away from home, but they left our site. 716 00:48:48,396 --> 00:48:50,836 Speaker 1: Did they ever come back? Well, yes they did. We 717 00:48:50,956 --> 00:48:52,636 Speaker 1: put them through college and all of this. But okay, 718 00:48:52,836 --> 00:48:55,756 Speaker 1: I mean we were at this massive holiday celebration when 719 00:48:55,716 --> 00:48:58,476 Speaker 1: we were living in Bloomington, Indiana, and our middle child 720 00:48:58,476 --> 00:49:00,636 Speaker 1: at the time, Jordan, who was like six years old, 721 00:49:00,676 --> 00:49:03,676 Speaker 1: she she just disappeared in the crowd and we got 722 00:49:03,676 --> 00:49:06,836 Speaker 1: her back because someone found her and instead of calling 723 00:49:06,876 --> 00:49:10,276 Speaker 1: the police on us, they took her to the announcer 724 00:49:10,316 --> 00:49:12,916 Speaker 1: and said, this child is lost. Now, you could imagine 725 00:49:12,916 --> 00:49:15,116 Speaker 1: this exact scenario where this happened to you, where you're 726 00:49:15,116 --> 00:49:17,716 Speaker 1: in this white town and they're like, you screwed up this. 727 00:49:17,916 --> 00:49:21,196 Speaker 1: I'm a bad parent, right, I'm neglectful. Yeah. And the difference, 728 00:49:21,196 --> 00:49:23,716 Speaker 1: of course, is that I was a professor at Indiana 729 00:49:23,796 --> 00:49:27,556 Speaker 1: University and not someone who was struggling as a low 730 00:49:27,596 --> 00:49:30,476 Speaker 1: income resident of that community. Yeah. This is the difference 731 00:49:30,516 --> 00:49:34,236 Speaker 1: between you having your parental rights and your right to 732 00:49:34,316 --> 00:49:37,876 Speaker 1: govern your life and your children's life versus a system 733 00:49:37,916 --> 00:49:41,436 Speaker 1: that has held bent on taking children away from people. Yeah. 734 00:49:41,476 --> 00:49:43,836 Speaker 1: As a parent, one of the worst horrors you could imagine, 735 00:49:43,876 --> 00:49:45,956 Speaker 1: I mean, short of the death of a child, of 736 00:49:46,356 --> 00:49:50,116 Speaker 1: just the child being taken from you and you being incapable, 737 00:49:50,276 --> 00:49:53,476 Speaker 1: powerless to do anything about it. That's right. I am 738 00:49:53,516 --> 00:49:57,316 Speaker 1: walking away from this conversation empowered with more information, particularly 739 00:49:57,356 --> 00:50:00,956 Speaker 1: this idea about the family policing system. I just think 740 00:50:00,996 --> 00:50:03,716 Speaker 1: that as you and I move forward in our work 741 00:50:03,836 --> 00:50:06,516 Speaker 1: talking about mass incarceration, now, we've got to deal with 742 00:50:06,556 --> 00:50:08,796 Speaker 1: this problem mass separation and the way that the child 743 00:50:08,796 --> 00:50:11,876 Speaker 1: welfare system works. Man, mass separation. Did you coin that 744 00:50:11,956 --> 00:50:14,356 Speaker 1: phrase in the middle of this conversation, because that's kind 745 00:50:14,356 --> 00:50:16,996 Speaker 1: of impressive. I did, But you know, my brain works 746 00:50:17,036 --> 00:50:21,556 Speaker 1: like that sometimes. Damn, damn, that's why you're top billing 747 00:50:21,556 --> 00:50:25,396 Speaker 1: on this show. I was left also with thinking the 748 00:50:25,516 --> 00:50:28,916 Speaker 1: more that we think of these issues interconnected, that the 749 00:50:28,996 --> 00:50:33,436 Speaker 1: rights of reproduction, a history of racial oppression, that there's 750 00:50:33,476 --> 00:50:35,676 Speaker 1: a way rather than rather than, as people usually say 751 00:50:35,676 --> 00:50:38,436 Speaker 1: in these separate fights, like don't make it too convoluted, 752 00:50:38,636 --> 00:50:40,676 Speaker 1: that's right, stay in your lane, we have to think 753 00:50:40,716 --> 00:50:43,476 Speaker 1: of them as connected, and you know, you feel like 754 00:50:43,516 --> 00:50:46,596 Speaker 1: you can get some mobilization if everyone feels this is 755 00:50:46,636 --> 00:50:50,356 Speaker 1: their problem on both ends. That's right. All right, man, 756 00:50:50,396 --> 00:50:52,396 Speaker 1: Well I'm glad that you're part of my kid's life. 757 00:50:53,436 --> 00:50:56,396 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, these are my nieces and my nephew. 758 00:50:56,716 --> 00:50:59,396 Speaker 1: If someone comfortable, I want to say, but they've got 759 00:50:59,436 --> 00:51:02,836 Speaker 1: a white uncle, I'm the white guy that's going to vouch. Yeah, 760 00:51:02,916 --> 00:51:09,836 Speaker 1: all right, man, love you, Love you too. Some of 761 00:51:09,876 --> 00:51:13,156 Speaker 1: My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. 762 00:51:13,436 --> 00:51:16,476 Speaker 1: The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, Gibron 763 00:51:16,556 --> 00:51:20,836 Speaker 1: Mohammed and my best friend sometimes Ben Austin Hey. It's 764 00:51:20,876 --> 00:51:25,316 Speaker 1: produced by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is 765 00:51:25,396 --> 00:51:30,036 Speaker 1: Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our 766 00:51:30,076 --> 00:51:35,116 Speaker 1: showrunner is Constanza Gallardo. At Pushkin. Thanks to Lee Tall, Mulad, 767 00:51:35,596 --> 00:51:41,516 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Greta Khane, 768 00:51:41,876 --> 00:51:46,956 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Lill Lily is by 769 00:51:47,076 --> 00:51:51,916 Speaker 1: fellow Chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young. It is from 770 00:51:51,916 --> 00:51:55,476 Speaker 1: his album Tubman. Okay, you definitely want to check out 771 00:51:55,516 --> 00:51:58,956 Speaker 1: more of his music at his website Avery R. Young 772 00:51:59,396 --> 00:52:03,316 Speaker 1: dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social platforms 773 00:52:03,356 --> 00:52:06,236 Speaker 1: at Pushkin pods, and you can sign up for our 774 00:52:06,276 --> 00:52:11,236 Speaker 1: newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 775 00:52:11,636 --> 00:52:16,236 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you 776 00:52:16,356 --> 00:52:18,476 Speaker 1: like to listen. Hey, and if you like our show, 777 00:52:18,796 --> 00:52:20,916 Speaker 1: please give it a five star rating and a review. 778 00:52:21,316 --> 00:52:23,836 Speaker 1: And okay, even if you don't like it, come on 779 00:52:24,076 --> 00:52:27,036 Speaker 1: give it a five star rating, review it and please 780 00:52:27,036 --> 00:52:29,556 Speaker 1: tell all of your best friends about it. Thank you 781 00:52:29,596 --> 00:52:30,036 Speaker 1: so much,