Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by turkeys with mohawks. No, instead,
Speaker 1: is brought to you by Netflix's new four part docuseries
Speaker 1: Evil Genius. This is the story of Bryan Douglas Wells,
Speaker 1: an American pizza delivery man who was killed by a
Speaker 1: remotely controlled bomb that had been fastened to his neck
Speaker 1: under coercion from the maker of the bomb. From the
Speaker 1: studio that brought you Making a Murderer, comes a twisting,
Speaker 1: turning bank hits that will shed light up on the
Speaker 1: true story of the pizza bomber and the person who
Speaker 1: might have gotten away with master winning the entire thing.
Speaker 1: Docuseries Evil Genius is streaming now only on Netflix. Watch
Speaker 1: it today. It's Quicker Tar Glories. So it's almost time,
Speaker 1: but we're expecting about another three people to show up. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: so we might hold off for an extra minute or two.
Speaker 1: There you go. There they are. Yeah. You guys know
Speaker 1: Robin from the Trail went Cold Say hi everybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll set the term my mic on did they whatever
Speaker 1: I said? I'm sorry, it says here in the script
Speaker 1: witty banter. Okay, it does it actually does it does? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it says intro ourselves period, wint Witty Badger period. Yeah
Speaker 1: like cold Oh okay, yeah, I don't know. All right,
Speaker 1: for those of you who weren't here a few minutes ago,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna show off one more time. I know, I
Speaker 1: know it looks like a UFO, but it's actually look
Speaker 1: into a sombrero. Yeah I know. Uh. Actually, all I
Speaker 1: had to do was tell her my sad story and
Speaker 1: she gave it to me. Wen't that's eat you know? Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was going to charge me, but she just gave
Speaker 1: it to me. So this is the point where you
Speaker 1: turn your ring tones off. Yeah, yeah, that would be good,
Speaker 1: thank you. That was planned. Okay, it's three thirty crap?
Speaker 1: Should do this? Or should we just go to the bar?
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess we said we'd do it. First off,
Speaker 1: How are y'all doing? Uh? Having fun at Triumphon? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry. We got those recording thing situated, I believe,
Speaker 1: so it's all figured out theoretically, all right, this could
Speaker 1: be the last episode, let's hope not already was. By
Speaker 1: the way, excuse my voice it cuts out a little
Speaker 1: bit because I was at Fuse last night and the
Speaker 1: decibel level was like about three hundred in there, and
Speaker 1: so I had to be screaming at people when I
Speaker 1: was talking to them, and I think I kind of
Speaker 1: damaged my local courts a little bit. So he was
Speaker 1: actually just screaming at people. It had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with the music. Screaming at you. But yeah, okay, well
Speaker 1: I guess it's my job to get this thing started. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, So you guys know maybe from last year,
Speaker 1: maybe from listening to us that we're recording this, so sorry,
Speaker 1: um so hello and welcome to Crime. We are thinking
Speaker 1: sideways the podcast, and we're gonna do a show for
Speaker 1: you tonight. We have a mystery. Um but first, I'm Devin,
Speaker 1: I'm Joe, and I'm Steve's perfect. It sounds like there's
Speaker 1: like twelve times they get people in here, so let's
Speaker 1: do that again. And I'm going to run through the
Speaker 1: crowd with the micro let. We're not doing that. We're
Speaker 1: not doing that. I'm sorry. What are you going to
Speaker 1: talk about tonight? Let's see Golden Killer? Yeah, DNA or something,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I don't know about this
Speaker 1: DNA stuff. You know. I was reading this article that
Speaker 1: we share like of our DNA with frogs so it's
Speaker 1: like a frog, That's what I'm saying. Yeah, so I'm
Speaker 1: not totally convinced about that one yet. Okay, well, scratch
Speaker 1: up another one. Yeah we did maybe an ax murder. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and how much cool about this one? Has just happened
Speaker 1: really close to where we're sitting right now. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's get started right so good, all right, We're going
Speaker 1: to talk about the axe murder of the aid family
Speaker 1: in March twenty four of eighteen nine seven. Our story
Speaker 1: takes place here in Tennessee. As we just mentioned, at
Speaker 1: the time, the area was called Germantown because, as you
Speaker 1: might have guessed, there are a lot of German immigrants
Speaker 1: that lived there. The Aids were also German immigrants, and
Speaker 1: they had been living in the area for about twenty
Speaker 1: years at the time that our story takes place. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, Jacob and a line had I should introduce
Speaker 1: you to the family, Jacob and Pauline. Jacob was the
Speaker 1: patriarch of the family. He was sixty years old at
Speaker 1: the time. His wife, Pauline was fifty years old. Also
Speaker 1: involved were two children, uh daughter named Lizzie who was
Speaker 1: twenty and a son named Henry who was thirteen. Worth
Speaker 1: mentioning they weren't just like super old parents um for
Speaker 1: the times. For the time. They also had three adult children,
Speaker 1: but they had moved out by then. Lucky them. And
Speaker 1: that's what we called by forest shadowing. H Jacob and
Speaker 1: Pauline owned quite a large farm in what was then
Speaker 1: called Paradise Ridge but is now called Joel Town, which
Speaker 1: I believe is like sixteen miles from where we are here.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there are any right, are you
Speaker 1: guys from? Is anybody from Tennessee there? You? Yeah? So
Speaker 1: the people that were not all right, they're farm it's said,
Speaker 1: was at least four hundred acres, which is point six
Speaker 1: square miles or one point six square kilometers, which is
Speaker 1: not nothing. I guess I don't know acres, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: as you do. With farms. Not only was there a farmhouse,
Speaker 1: but also lots of outbuildings like barns, et cetera, and
Speaker 1: at least one smokehouse. But to be fair, the barn
Speaker 1: is actually speculation because there are very little details about
Speaker 1: this story other than the fact that there were five
Speaker 1: rooms in the farmhouse and there was a smokehouse. That's
Speaker 1: all we really know. But there had to be a
Speaker 1: because you have to story your tools somewhere right right,
Speaker 1: I probably tool ship. Yeah. Uh. Here's the thing with farming.
Speaker 1: You probably know. It can be much more lucrative for
Speaker 1: some people than others. And the Aids were considered very
Speaker 1: wealthy by their peer farmers. It's unclear to me if
Speaker 1: this is true or not. We've talked a lot about this.
Speaker 1: The Aids might have just been very generous with their
Speaker 1: money because they Jacob would loan money to any farmers
Speaker 1: in the area that maybe needed some. But he was
Speaker 1: also pretty litigious, which is the correct use of that
Speaker 1: word this time, thank you reporting is that just days
Speaker 1: before the thing that you're about to learn at about,
Speaker 1: Jacob had been in court because somebody had stolen one
Speaker 1: of his hogs and he was suing them. That's not cool, Okay.
Speaker 1: So we have the a family. We have Jacob, Pauline, Lizzie,
Speaker 1: and Henry. Also involved in what you're about to learn
Speaker 1: out is Rosa, who was a ten year old neighbor
Speaker 1: who was sleeping over um and we her dad lived
Speaker 1: in the area, but we're no it's unclear why she
Speaker 1: was sleeping at the house at the time. Her last
Speaker 1: name is reported differently every single place you read it,
Speaker 1: So it could be Morrier more Tier, Murrier Morier ear
Speaker 1: or like Moriarty or something that last one that's not true.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Joe, Okay, my turn. So now Dev has
Speaker 1: done the hard work of introducing all of our characters,
Speaker 1: like crime. Uh all, by the way, the Aids family,
Speaker 1: because you're wondering the Aig family A D E not
Speaker 1: a I D just in case you're curious. I keep
Speaker 1: wanting to call him like live cool band. You know
Speaker 1: I mean that now, So it's a D. So none
Speaker 1: of that applies. So the crime. So nobody actually saw
Speaker 1: the crime except for the guy who committed it, of course.
Speaker 1: But around nine thirty that night it was dark, of
Speaker 1: course it was with March and Tennessee. Their closest neighbor
Speaker 1: was about half mile away and saw flames coming from
Speaker 1: their home, and so rode over on his horse to
Speaker 1: check it out. This guy's name was Justice Simpson the West.
Speaker 1: Some accounts his name was Squire Simpson. I think it
Speaker 1: was Justice the keeping simple. We're gonna call him Justin
Speaker 1: as always, Yeah, yeah, as always. Uh so just Justin
Speaker 1: got there. The whole house was already up in flames,
Speaker 1: and he didn't see the family anywhere. So all I
Speaker 1: could think of do was go to the smokehouse and
Speaker 1: pull all the meat out of the smokehouse. And that's
Speaker 1: what he said afterwards, you know, I'm like, He's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, the meat was gonna be destroyed, so I
Speaker 1: thought I would save the meat. I think he was
Speaker 1: is trying to get some free meat. I think that's yeah,
Speaker 1: the family's going up in flames, I'm gonna grab some
Speaker 1: free st We don't know, that's less give him the
Speaker 1: benefit of the Yeah, So he starts pulling meat out
Speaker 1: of the smoke causse while yelling for the family. He
Speaker 1: was thinking that maybe they were already already up in flames,
Speaker 1: or I'll say it escaped the house and they were,
Speaker 1: you know, lurking somewhere, maybe on the other side of
Speaker 1: the house or something. He wasn't sure, but he was
Speaker 1: he was moving the meat and uh yeah, and then uh.
Speaker 1: According to one version of this story, while while our
Speaker 1: friend Justin was was there moving the meat out of
Speaker 1: the smokes, you keep saying it that way. Yeah, very uncomfortable. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: let me think here, all right, I just won't talk
Speaker 1: about that anymore. Uh Uh. So he was doing his
Speaker 1: thing and apparently like an exterior an exterior wall of
Speaker 1: the house falls down and just collapse is and he
Speaker 1: was able to see inside the burning house, and so
Speaker 1: and he saw what he saw the dead bodies in there.
Speaker 1: Although to him they looked like just big bundles of clothing.
Speaker 1: He wasn't sure. So he did what any of us
Speaker 1: would do when you're you know, like like face with
Speaker 1: a huge burning house. You know, he went and got
Speaker 1: a potato fork, which is like a pitchfork, but the
Speaker 1: times have been bent, so yeah, yeah, and so he
Speaker 1: grabs one of those and ties a long pole to
Speaker 1: it and goes and starts poking at those those big bundles.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would do that, but he yeah,
Speaker 1: I bet that's what he did, and uh pull folks
Speaker 1: out of a bit and then kind of hooks him
Speaker 1: and pulls him out of the house and turns out
Speaker 1: there were corpses. Yeah, I know, the dead bodies, not
Speaker 1: just dead bodies, but headless bodies. Right now, I know that.
Speaker 1: I know. That makes it even better, doesn't it. Uh So?
Speaker 1: Uh where am I at here? And the ruining Steve's
Speaker 1: part is what you're doing. Sorry, I'm stopping all over
Speaker 1: his stuff, but I don't I don't know. I'm not
Speaker 1: so sure about this because unless the guy was like
Speaker 1: a terminator from the future, how do you do this?
Speaker 1: Because house fires are like what like nine hundred degrees right,
Speaker 1: you know. So I'm wondering if perhaps because it turns
Speaker 1: out a rain storm kicked up that night kind of
Speaker 1: doused the flames a bit, so it might be that
Speaker 1: Justin Way didn't tell after things that kind of died
Speaker 1: down a little bit before he started poking around and
Speaker 1: they're pulling bodies out of the wreckage of the house.
Speaker 1: That's the less heroic version, that is. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: call it the less heroic version. Yeah, but whatever he did,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, long story short, they did find
Speaker 1: fourheadless bodies, although some reports say too, I like four
Speaker 1: better myself, just like literally all of this is Steve. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: this is a problem is I. I sort of stare
Speaker 1: at the script, but I'm not really seeing it. I'm
Speaker 1: just like going off memory. So I'm going to turn
Speaker 1: it over to Steve. It though he doesn't have anything
Speaker 1: to talk about alright, theories getting ahead, so obviously no
Speaker 1: matter whether it was two bodies or it was four bodies.
Speaker 1: Justin is freaked out. So he runs away and he
Speaker 1: goes and he gets a neighbor and says, hey, I
Speaker 1: found these dead bodies. What do we do? They then
Speaker 1: go and get Rosa's dad, who I'm he must have
Speaker 1: been just a couple of miles away, and then they
Speaker 1: all go back to the property and mill about. I
Speaker 1: don't know what they were doing while they were waiting there.
Speaker 1: Eventually the sheriff would show up and he would start
Speaker 1: looking around. When they pulled the bodies out, they noticed
Speaker 1: that it was the Aid family, only the ones that
Speaker 1: Justin pulled out. But when the sheriff starts looking around,
Speaker 1: he finds Rosa's body, and she's a little bit different
Speaker 1: than the other because she's not as burned as badly
Speaker 1: as everybody else. As heads right, she is missing some
Speaker 1: she is missing a hand, and it appears that she's
Speaker 1: missing the back of her head as if somebody took
Speaker 1: a swing at her and didn't get the whole thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is not exactly the nicest thing in the world.
Speaker 1: And the question that I always ask on the times
Speaker 1: that we've rehearsed this and it's well before is always
Speaker 1: why why would her body be less burned than all
Speaker 1: the other ones, and so there's a lot of ideas
Speaker 1: of why that might be. The general theory is that
Speaker 1: she must have tried to get away, and maybe she
Speaker 1: was caught outside of the house and then once the
Speaker 1: killer had killed her, tossed her back into the building
Speaker 1: with the intention of her burning up with everybody else.
Speaker 1: But she was in an area of the house that
Speaker 1: maybe didn't burn as much, and therefore she was spared
Speaker 1: the flames. But it's you know, it's hard to say because,
Speaker 1: as Devin said, there's weird reporting on this story and
Speaker 1: it changes all over the place. There are places that
Speaker 1: said that she did have her hand. There's also places
Speaker 1: that say that her body was found in a crouching position, which,
Speaker 1: when we talked about it, yeah, with her hands over
Speaker 1: her head kind of herself, like for a dead body
Speaker 1: to be just like crouching, I think it'd fall over.
Speaker 1: And the only thing that we can come up with
Speaker 1: is maybe she was in the corner of a room,
Speaker 1: which is even scarier when you think about it, because yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't want to think about going that way. So
Speaker 1: the original working theory was this. Someone must have come
Speaker 1: to the house around eight o'clock that night. They killed
Speaker 1: Jacob first and then chase the rest of the family
Speaker 1: into the house and would corner them in the parlor
Speaker 1: where they would be murdered. And it is believed that
Speaker 1: it is at this point while the Aid family was
Speaker 1: being killed in the parlor, if Rosa had tried to
Speaker 1: get away, that's when she would have done it. There
Speaker 1: was speculation that she had tried to go out a window,
Speaker 1: which since most of the house was burned down. I
Speaker 1: don't don't know why where they came up with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that part doesn't make a lot of sense, But
Speaker 1: as with all of the reporting, a lot of things
Speaker 1: don't make sense. Pause for a drink, Pose for a drink,
Speaker 1: I get dry mouth. If you ever notice it's a
Speaker 1: bad thing, don't do it. See where the heck were we? Oh? Okay? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So we talked about the fact that the house had
Speaker 1: partially burned and then the fire head when put out.
Speaker 1: Of course, when they get those bodies, the heads are missing,
Speaker 1: and people have said, well, where could the heads have gone?
Speaker 1: It's likely that they did not burn up in the fire,
Speaker 1: because if the bodies didn't burn up. Heads are very moist,
Speaker 1: they're not going to burn up very easy. They don't
Speaker 1: explode in flames like that. So no, no, this is
Speaker 1: not the zombie movie, so that does not happen. Um.
Speaker 1: And so it's thought at this point that our killer
Speaker 1: must have packed away these two or full or full
Speaker 1: intact heads, which it's kind of gotta be a lot
Speaker 1: of weight to carry. How much does it? It's ten
Speaker 1: pounds that stuff Actually, funny story. Googled it, um. And
Speaker 1: actually when I googled it, I was doing something else,
Speaker 1: and so I accidentally googled how much as a human
Speaker 1: head cost? And you can there is a price, it
Speaker 1: turns out, or full size, full size, and that's for
Speaker 1: like the whole transplant. I couldn't find what it just
Speaker 1: it's probably um. So okay, So back to the investigation.
Speaker 1: So really there are no clues as to what happened
Speaker 1: to the family. Authorities would search around. They would arrest
Speaker 1: two black men who lived in Ashland City, which is
Speaker 1: apparently ten miles away, but their confessions would be found
Speaker 1: to not be exactly right, and probably we're coerced, and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in a little bit. In theories, um.
Speaker 1: Then two other men that were local men were charged
Speaker 1: with the crime. They were sent to trial. They were
Speaker 1: acquitted because there's no evidence, so they really there was
Speaker 1: nothing who convict them with. So you know, we've kind
Speaker 1: of got a perfect crime here because well, wait, there
Speaker 1: is one witness, so we've been holding back on you.
Speaker 1: There is one single witness. It was the family's German shepherd. Yes,
Speaker 1: I believe it or not, they had a dog. The
Speaker 1: dog saw it all, told the sheriff what had happened.
Speaker 1: The sheriff used the dog as his secret witness. I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't. It's the late eighteen nineties. I guess it
Speaker 1: was the wild West of investigations. My my best guess
Speaker 1: here is that his plan was to take the dog
Speaker 1: all around town and whoever the dog barked out must
Speaker 1: have been guilty of people got executed because it turns
Speaker 1: out that dog was a barker. So yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: the really weird part about the story. So really, no
Speaker 1: no witnesses, perfect crime. Yeah. The reason I think we
Speaker 1: missed this one of the reasons that most of the
Speaker 1: evidence was gone because of that rainstorm. It washed away
Speaker 1: most of the blood evidence. There were no footprints anything
Speaker 1: like that because it was a really heavy rainstormire right,
Speaker 1: help anything? Yeah, so it was kind of perfect. Actually
Speaker 1: it turned out not bad crime. Yeah, alright, well I'll
Speaker 1: have to say perfect crime. But you know, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: it's time for theories. But first let's take a break.
Speaker 1: A bomb this is an explosive weapon that uses the
Speaker 1: exothermic reaction of an explosive material to provide an extremely
Speaker 1: sudden and violent release of energy. Detonations have like damage
Speaker 1: principally through transmitted mechanical stress, the impact and penetration of
Speaker 1: pressure driven projectiles, pressure damage, and explosion generated effects. Bombs
Speaker 1: can be defined as vessels containing a reactive material. A
Speaker 1: baby with a full belly. Someone could really know how
Speaker 1: to wear those shorts at a large, greasy meal that
Speaker 1: will definitely sit in the pit of your stomach all
Speaker 1: day long. Well, if you want to hear about the
Speaker 1: first kind of bomb, we've got the show for you.
Speaker 1: It's Evil Genius. Evil Genius tells the story of Brian
Speaker 1: Douglas Wells, an American pizza delivery man who was killed
Speaker 1: by a remotely controlled bomb fastened to his neck under
Speaker 1: coversion from the maker of the bomb. In two thousand three,
Speaker 1: Wells was apprehended by police for robbing a bank while
Speaker 1: the bomb was locked to his neck. Shortly thereafter, the
Speaker 1: bomb detonated and it killed him instantly. After years of
Speaker 1: mishandled investigations, Evil Genius will shed light on the true
Speaker 1: story of the pizza bomber and the person who might
Speaker 1: have gotten away with masterminding the whole thing. From the
Speaker 1: studio that brought you, making a murder and the Keepers
Speaker 1: comes a twisting, turning bank heist that leaves a trail
Speaker 1: of bodies in one big question who was the Evil
Speaker 1: Genius behind it? The four part docuseries Evil Genius is
Speaker 1: streaming now only on Netflix because it's the bump and
Speaker 1: we're back. Okay, so theory number one. You get to
Speaker 1: hear me continue to prattle on because I have theory
Speaker 1: number one, So lucky you. The first theory is that
Speaker 1: it was robbery. As we've established before, the Aid family
Speaker 1: was well off, or at least generous to the folks
Speaker 1: that lived in the area, and it was not an
Speaker 1: unknown fact that they actually kept a lot of money
Speaker 1: in the house. Turns out that they were known to
Speaker 1: catch several hundred dollars at any one time in their home.
Speaker 1: If you look at what a hundred dollars is worth
Speaker 1: in the late eighteen nineties to today, it's somewhere in
Speaker 1: the range of about so you're looking at five grand,
Speaker 1: ten grand. It's kind of that's not I don't think
Speaker 1: that's enough money for me to want to murder somebody, especially.
Speaker 1: People have different standards though, but yeah, it wouldn't quite
Speaker 1: met my standard form brochering an entire family, But just
Speaker 1: just so I'm warned, Yeah, it's kind of a moving targets.
Speaker 1: Oh boy um Okay. So there were the two gentlemen
Speaker 1: from Ashland City that were originally brought in for the crime,
Speaker 1: and they had confessed. The reason that their confessions didn't
Speaker 1: or that they didn't get charged with these crimes is
Speaker 1: their confession was that they robbed. They went in and
Speaker 1: they did this whole thing so that they could rob
Speaker 1: the family and get all the money they had. That
Speaker 1: fell apart because when they started digging through the remains
Speaker 1: of the home they found the money. Turns out that
Speaker 1: they had a roll of a hundred dollars in a
Speaker 1: tin um joe. You what what was it? Uh? What
Speaker 1: kind of I heard it was an oyster can. Uh,
Speaker 1: so they stuck a roll a part of me like
Speaker 1: a normal was an oyster can. They just stuffed a
Speaker 1: roll and an oyster can and like put it in
Speaker 1: the pantry or something. Although you know that. The thing
Speaker 1: about it is is the original suspects maybe did do
Speaker 1: it because they find a stash of semi burned bills
Speaker 1: and say, well, they said they found the money. Obviously
Speaker 1: they didn't. What if they did find some money, they
Speaker 1: just didn't find this particular bit of money, which makes sense.
Speaker 1: It's it's don't put all your eggs in one basket,
Speaker 1: so you have multiple things around the house with money
Speaker 1: in it. They could have, if Joe's right, found some
Speaker 1: found some money and said we've struck gold. Let's like
Speaker 1: this place up and let's get the hell out of here,
Speaker 1: when in fact they didn't get at all. I just
Speaker 1: the reason that I have a hard time with this
Speaker 1: theory is like the beheading aspect, right, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a lot of work, well a lot of work, but
Speaker 1: it's just it is, but like why you know, you
Speaker 1: could just stab some people and to get off with
Speaker 1: the money and not have to you know, And I
Speaker 1: mean cud of kids has off seems like really extreme. Uh,
Speaker 1: and then you know one of them was I don't know,
Speaker 1: I just it doesn't really all fit together for me.
Speaker 1: Well you know actually that I thought about it too,
Speaker 1: and and it's it's uh, for a robbery, it seems
Speaker 1: a little extreme. But on the other hand, if you're
Speaker 1: robbing them and you want to cover that up that
Speaker 1: it was it was for robbery, it chops some heads off,
Speaker 1: and everybody thinks while psycho killer, they're not going to
Speaker 1: think about robbery so much. So maybe that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of my thinking on that it's to cover up the
Speaker 1: other crime, see what I'm saying. Yeah, but I'm really
Speaker 1: worried about you. You come up with these answers really
Speaker 1: fastest I do. But you know, you can feel safe
Speaker 1: because I'm kind of squeamish and I don't like making
Speaker 1: big messages and spreading DNA all over the place. That
Speaker 1: DNA stuff is really getting kind of problematical for us
Speaker 1: criminal types. Yeah, well no, but it is. I mean,
Speaker 1: the thing is, it's not is if who if somebody
Speaker 1: was local that did this crime, wouldn't know that there
Speaker 1: was at least four people in that home. Three adults
Speaker 1: and one kid into ending on whoever was over, then
Speaker 1: they're gonna know that there's a lot of people in
Speaker 1: the home. So it seems like an extreme way to
Speaker 1: go about it. Um, I know, Joe, you had one,
Speaker 1: you had one kind of side vein on this theory. Well,
Speaker 1: it's just that in those days, you know, people have
Speaker 1: bigger families. So your typical house probably had like fifteen
Speaker 1: people living in it. So that wasn't what I meant. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm thinking. Enough, from the killer's point view,
Speaker 1: it could be hardly anybody's at home, and so, uh,
Speaker 1: that could be one aspect to it. Well it's the other.
Speaker 1: The other idea that you when we were talking about
Speaker 1: it is erasing a debt. Yeah, that was well, you know,
Speaker 1: that is it. And that's what if if Jacob did
Speaker 1: lend money, Well, first of all, we don't know if
Speaker 1: he wasn't the local loan shark. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe he was after like breaking kneecapping people left and right.
Speaker 1: I said, we don't really know he lands money, so
Speaker 1: did have a hog farm? We don't actually know. Oh
Speaker 1: yeah that's true. But um, but if he was lending money,
Speaker 1: it's it's there's a it's a possible thing that there
Speaker 1: was somebody out there in the community who was actually
Speaker 1: into him for say, you know, a thousand bucks or whatever.
Speaker 1: And he's thinking it over and thinking, you know, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a long long time before I get Jacob
Speaker 1: paid off, So why don't just go over there and
Speaker 1: kill him and light the house on fire, so the
Speaker 1: ledger that's got it all written down, it'll all get
Speaker 1: burned up in the flames, and then my dad is
Speaker 1: just magically raced kill him and his kids and cut
Speaker 1: their heads off, you know, collateral damage. But you know,
Speaker 1: you know I would, I would probably try to find
Speaker 1: a way to you know, make sure that the whole
Speaker 1: the thing about it is is back in those days,
Speaker 1: you know, there were no cars or malls. You know,
Speaker 1: the kids were always hanging around the farm. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not like now, Yeah, that's that too, Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so you know that could have been and he just
Speaker 1: figured that, you know, hey, now's as good a time
Speaker 1: as Danny. And maybe he didn't even realize little Rose
Speaker 1: it was gonna be there. He thought he was just
Speaker 1: gonna have to kill like four people instead of like five,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, and and just one other
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to toss in here too. This is
Speaker 1: an axe murder. But you know, if he really took
Speaker 1: all the heads, we don't actually know that it was
Speaker 1: an ex murder other than rosa because he could have
Speaker 1: shot them all on the head. And the reason he
Speaker 1: chopped their heads off, it's because he wanted to take
Speaker 1: the bullets with him. You know, that's evidence, right, Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but you're about fifty plus years too soon for that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, but you know that's that's possibility. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: he could have been in time traveler. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know's anybody here. No, when actually, like you know, ballistics
Speaker 1: evidence really came into him into like being, it seems
Speaker 1: like it was right around this time. It was like
Speaker 1: late nineteenth century, early twentieth century. Cool. Well yeah, alright, cool,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just take the next theory doing that. My
Speaker 1: theory is a revenge, particularly over the hog dispute um,
Speaker 1: because you remember how when I was talking twelve years ago,
Speaker 1: because I don't talk, I mentioned that a few days
Speaker 1: prior to the murder, slash fire whatever situation, that Jacob
Speaker 1: had been in court over stolen hog. That was not
Speaker 1: just a fun fact. It was for a reason. It
Speaker 1: was to pat up my theory. So this is how
Speaker 1: this theory goes. Actually, Ed Anderson, one of the AIDS neighbors,
Speaker 1: reportedly maybe stole some of the AIDS hogs or pigs,
Speaker 1: living pork products. Ostensibly ostensibly stole some living pork products. Uh.
Speaker 1: And this is actually a theory that's out there, and
Speaker 1: it's super super frustrating to me because this is how
Speaker 1: this theory goes. Well, they were in court, um, but
Speaker 1: you know, he cooperated and everyone like the AIDS, So
Speaker 1: I didn't do it. I heard the guy had a
Speaker 1: solid alb but they but nobody ever reports the alibi,
Speaker 1: which is again super you know, he would have been
Speaker 1: an obvious suspect though you would think, thank you, but
Speaker 1: you know, the reporting is always Well, the neighbors all
Speaker 1: really like the AIDS, so it couldn't have been any
Speaker 1: of them. I don't know. Uh. The other thing that
Speaker 1: I guess could have happened with venge would be that
Speaker 1: there could have been like an old feud um from Germany. Yeah,
Speaker 1: from the old country. Yeah. I mean they've lived in
Speaker 1: the area for twenty years, so it would have been
Speaker 1: really old but um, I guess it's possible. Well, I
Speaker 1: mean people did. People did flee their homelands for a
Speaker 1: multitude of reasons, not just because they didn't like the
Speaker 1: local government. But they were fleeing debt. It was not
Speaker 1: an uncommon thing, so it could be that he was.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about debt so far. Maybe he's
Speaker 1: made somebody made somebody else money. Twenty years. Twenty years
Speaker 1: is a really long time. That's a lot of interest
Speaker 1: that day. Yes, that's true, And I don't want to
Speaker 1: go too far down this rabbit hole because there's really
Speaker 1: nothing to substantiate it, like at all, and there's there's
Speaker 1: additional to that. There's like no theories on who that
Speaker 1: might have been from the Old Country or anything else.
Speaker 1: And we are a little bit running out of time.
Speaker 1: Well what time is it? And Joe has a really
Speaker 1: good theory about Matt Damon. So oh you guys are
Speaker 1: here now, Okay, Um, Actually it's kind of kind of weak,
Speaker 1: but it's good. He's been over everything this weekend. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an awesome theory. I don't want to say it's
Speaker 1: awesome and then have everybready been disappointed. The best theory well,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, what if this was like an
Speaker 1: actual serial killer who did this. And I'm sure all
Speaker 1: of you guys have heard of the Midwest axvan have you? Okay?
Speaker 1: And the Midwest guy? Uh, he ranged actually all the
Speaker 1: way from outside the Midwest he started. The first one
Speaker 1: known outside of this one was Portland, Oregon. The loose
Speaker 1: term of Midwest, I guess, yeah, yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: when they actually settled on a definition for the bid West,
Speaker 1: so you know it might have applied then. But he
Speaker 1: ranged all the way from there, so as far as
Speaker 1: east this Monmouth, Illinois. Uh. These all took place between
Speaker 1: June nineteen eleven and June, but there was there was
Speaker 1: a lot that connected those two. I mean he had
Speaker 1: a typical emma. Was he attack a family that lived
Speaker 1: near the railroad tracks, so like five or six blocks
Speaker 1: maybe from the railroad tracks, which led people to think
Speaker 1: he traveled by rail um usually well actually always did.
Speaker 1: The family had just an ax laying around in the
Speaker 1: yard that he would just pick up and go in
Speaker 1: and kill, which was typical of those days. That's usually
Speaker 1: how X murders operated in those days, actually, because everybody
Speaker 1: had an ax laid around in their yard. More that
Speaker 1: than the axe murderers part. Yeah, that too, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: oh god, what else? He had a typical thing of
Speaker 1: like lighting an oil lamp, and he would take the
Speaker 1: chimney off and bend the wick ninety degrees before lighting it,
Speaker 1: which I guess was not standard operating procedure back in
Speaker 1: those days. And so and so there, and and we
Speaker 1: cover the windows usually, and so there was a lot
Speaker 1: connecting all those murders. But in this case, of course,
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell because the house burned down, so
Speaker 1: all that evidence was destroyed. There was a very famous
Speaker 1: one that was under that. There was another one too
Speaker 1: that I think was done by the Midwest AxMan was
Speaker 1: of course, you guys have heard of Willissa, Iowa Willissa
Speaker 1: axe murders. That also. There was a lot of similarities
Speaker 1: there too, So I think, you know, but can we
Speaker 1: tie this one to it? I'm not sure. Um, Well,
Speaker 1: there were don't there were no railroad tracks nearby, um,
Speaker 1: so that kind of and he didn't usually burn the
Speaker 1: house down, um. And of course he didn't take heads
Speaker 1: in the earth, you know, in the later murders, So
Speaker 1: that's kind of a difference. It seems like an escalation too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the taking of the heads. Yeah, like, if if this
Speaker 1: one happened after those, I would be more willing to
Speaker 1: say that it could be connected. But taking heads and
Speaker 1: then not taking heads anymore seems like a de escalation
Speaker 1: to me. Well, you know, um my thinking is that
Speaker 1: he took he took some souvenirs the first time out
Speaker 1: and were on for a little bit, and he started
Speaker 1: smelling bad, and he decided the whole idea was overrated,
Speaker 1: and so that's why he never did it again. That's
Speaker 1: that's kind of where I'm thinking. What do you guys
Speaker 1: think of that theory? Get your name? Yeah already, okay,
Speaker 1: one single? Yeah, alright, we're on the right track. It
Speaker 1: was kind of faint, but I'll but so, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. So I'm trying to think it's not related
Speaker 1: to the Midwest ax man. Of course, that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: it wasn't another serial killer. I mean back in those days, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we didn't have the inner webs and national TV,
Speaker 1: national TV news networks and stuff, so we didn't you know,
Speaker 1: we didn't have Nancy Grace. No, she was not want
Speaker 1: to be born for another ten years. Just getting Nancy.
Speaker 1: If you're listening, I love I love Nancy. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you know, but maybe, I mean I could I could
Speaker 1: imagine maybe this guy goes out commits a psychoax killing,
Speaker 1: you know, and then maybe uh like goes into the
Speaker 1: military for a while and just goes overseas and kills
Speaker 1: for Uncle Sam or something, and eventually like it comes
Speaker 1: out of the military, goes back to wherever and then
Speaker 1: just decides, hey, you know, I'm about to do more
Speaker 1: of this, and so that could have been it. But
Speaker 1: otherwise it's kind of hard to account for that big
Speaker 1: long gap. So we well, we what story do we
Speaker 1: talked about that? Um, it was the grim Sleeper where
Speaker 1: he was he was, you know, he was really really prolific,
Speaker 1: and then things changed in his life and his his
Speaker 1: relationship at home got better and he had a couple
Speaker 1: of kids, and he literally didn't have the time to
Speaker 1: do the killing. So you know, people were spared from
Speaker 1: the wrath that he was. And I mean, it's entirely
Speaker 1: possible that that's what's going on with this guy. If
Speaker 1: the Unified acts murder killer theories, right, yeah, what's it?
Speaker 1: You know, who knows it could be? I mean, you
Speaker 1: don't know what's going on in this guy's life. He
Speaker 1: might have committed this crime and gone on and done
Speaker 1: something else, like murdered some other guy in apute, gone
Speaker 1: off to prison for a while, and then he gets
Speaker 1: out around nineteen eleven and decides to start killing people again.
Speaker 1: I don't know. So anyway, that's about the end of
Speaker 1: that theory for me. Anybody else got any theories? Yes,
Speaker 1: man in the back, Well, we gotta we gotta, we
Speaker 1: gotta volunteer theory. Hey, we've got microphones by the way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if those are two and are not
Speaker 1: a man running towards you. So I want to look
Speaker 1: at him, turn around, let him deal with it, turn around,
Speaker 1: or just turn around playing with Oh my god, look
Speaker 1: I do test one too. Guys, I don't know. Hey,
Speaker 1: what's your name? My name is Justin. Just he did it? Hey,
Speaker 1: that's my theory is Justin did it. I like it.
Speaker 1: He's the neighbor. Maybe they didn't clean up their grass
Speaker 1: clippings and he got mad about it. Well, you know
Speaker 1: those neighbors that don't that don't weed their yards, and
Speaker 1: you've got all those little dandie lamp puff balls out
Speaker 1: there that are going to blow over into your yard.
Speaker 1: And then you got to be caught off all their heads. Yeah, yeah, Joe,
Speaker 1: and he knew that they had meat in the house
Speaker 1: and money. It was the meat, right, that's why you
Speaker 1: did it. Well, that's why Justin did it, neighbor Justin right,
Speaker 1: think think and Justin did it? Why he was the
Speaker 1: first one that came across the bodies. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: First one on the scene does get to say what happened? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Any other anybody else? And he had all the time
Speaker 1: in the world. What are the clues do you have?
Speaker 1: This is Acam's razor. It's just the simplest explanation. And
Speaker 1: you were saying that I was doing it the entire time,
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna go with that. You're taking credit for
Speaker 1: it makes sense. I'm not a hundred and something years old,
Speaker 1: and are you are? Can you show us proof? And uh,
Speaker 1: he didn't cut their heads off for bullets because ballistics
Speaker 1: evidence didn't come into effect until about You just googled that,
Speaker 1: didn't you. Yeah know, he knows that from the alienist.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I think that's probably true, although you know
Speaker 1: it could have been. He just wanted you know, he
Speaker 1: owned a forty five and he thought Wow, they're gonna
Speaker 1: have forty five caliber sized holes in their heads, so
Speaker 1: why don't I just whack their heads up until yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Oh suddenly everyone knows now when we asked, but when
Speaker 1: Justin asked, very good, thank you, Justin. I want to
Speaker 1: point out, yeah, for Justin, I I do want to
Speaker 1: point out to one. The one thing to support support
Speaker 1: is theory is that Justin are not nour Justin here,
Speaker 1: but the other one actually was holding him a sharp
Speaker 1: agricultural implement in his hands when everybody saw him. You know,
Speaker 1: so there you go, case closed. Is that how that happened?
Speaker 1: I thought he dropped it and ran away. I you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know what really happened. We're just admitting we
Speaker 1: have no idea what we're talking about. That is that
Speaker 1: is the hardest part about the story is the reporting
Speaker 1: is super super spotty, and even the reporting at the
Speaker 1: time because you can you can you know, they scan
Speaker 1: the old clippings and it varies from paper to paper
Speaker 1: to paper, and these papers are within a day or
Speaker 1: two of each other. So this story really just kind
Speaker 1: of got blurred really really fast, which is why we
Speaker 1: picked it because and nobody can prove us wrong. On
Speaker 1: anything in this one. It's it's you know, somebody really
Speaker 1: wanted to go, like go look at courthouse records and
Speaker 1: find old police and court records and stuff. They could
Speaker 1: probably get a lot more, assuming those things haven't been
Speaker 1: lost or you know, one up in a fire or
Speaker 1: something like that. There might be more information out there.
Speaker 1: So far, nobody's been interested enough to go out there,
Speaker 1: and actually no, there has been some people that have
Speaker 1: looked into it. But it uh Rosa's dad. Apparently he
Speaker 1: was French. That's that's somehow was determined based on her
Speaker 1: the sound of her name. But people who have gone
Speaker 1: through the records have combed through them and they've never
Speaker 1: been able to figure out exactly who he is. So
Speaker 1: we don't even know his first name, we don't even
Speaker 1: know their last name. It's just it just went off
Speaker 1: the rails that fast. So alas any other theories out there,
Speaker 1: oh we got up front here, all right, let's hear him,
Speaker 1: not see him. I don't want to see any theories
Speaker 1: about acts murders. If the heads were missing and the
Speaker 1: bodies were burned, do we have a positive identification? Do
Speaker 1: we know that those were all the actual dead people?
Speaker 1: As I possible. Maybe the husband killed the wife and
Speaker 1: they took all the heads stide, Uh, the fact that
Speaker 1: the male body wasn't his. I don't know how the
Speaker 1: idea of the bodies. That's a good point. You know
Speaker 1: that the family could have like you know, murdered another
Speaker 1: family and then skipped skipped down to start a new life.
Speaker 1: It was actually Rosa's dad was actually Jacob. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's actually good theory. I like that they certainly
Speaker 1: couldn't use DNA, could they. Yeah, we have another Yeah,
Speaker 1: so related to the heads, do we know how long
Speaker 1: it took between the neighbor showing up because it kind
Speaker 1: of seemed like he was like looting their house. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's like, you know, it's customary in those days
Speaker 1: to loot the smoke house. Yeah, I mean, like, you
Speaker 1: know he's there, he you know, goes and loots, and
Speaker 1: you have to assume if he's like going to save
Speaker 1: the meat from burning, he's also going to take that
Speaker 1: back to his place. And maybe he had like birth
Speaker 1: and then he went and got the dad. And so
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if there was enough time that passed between
Speaker 1: the actual like when the fire went out from the
Speaker 1: storm and when they actually showed back up there and
Speaker 1: then they milled around and you know, eventually the police
Speaker 1: get there. But what if the house had actually been
Speaker 1: scavenged by animals, because animals go for the head first. Um,
Speaker 1: but like maybe there'd been like a pack of coyotes
Speaker 1: or something and they by it took some heads and
Speaker 1: you know, dragged them off to go and have a
Speaker 1: mid morning snack, and so maybe it wasn't even an
Speaker 1: actual like beheading. They actually just it's just the coyotes
Speaker 1: came by and chewed the heads off. I mean apparently
Speaker 1: that's like common and gross. But yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: we know how much time. The only thing that I
Speaker 1: would say with that, and again this is like frustrating reporting,
Speaker 1: is that they seem to really it's it's like they
Speaker 1: were cut off and they think a you know, like
Speaker 1: would be a little war in early but again they
Speaker 1: were burned also, And also we don't know anything at all.
Speaker 1: Sorry everybody. Uh oh, we have another theory here. Sorry.
Speaker 1: It was both uh boy or that two boy and
Speaker 1: a girl. Yeah them was twenty and it was a daughter.
Speaker 1: One of them was thirteen. It was a son, and
Speaker 1: then there was the ten year old neighbor who was
Speaker 1: a girl ten year old, was twenty year old male.
Speaker 1: Twenty year old twenty year old female, young boy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she shouldn't have been there. Yeah, over there was piste
Speaker 1: off killed the law. Yeah, and then his daughter saw
Speaker 1: it and she was kill His old showed him up
Speaker 1: back at the scene and the other guy stealing meat.
Speaker 1: So he's like that guy most guilty. Hey, Joe, Yeah, Joe,
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not as uncomfortable around you. This scares me.
Speaker 1: I kind of like the way you think my ten
Speaker 1: year old daughter was at some house was all growing
Speaker 1: up to a young boy that Adams ninth, eighteen nineties,
Speaker 1: and that stuff wasn't appropriate for her young girl to
Speaker 1: be around. They got married fourteen years old. Maybe thought
Speaker 1: she was tainted family. Yeah, an honor killing. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know if honor killings were big in the back
Speaker 1: of the day. Yeah. It is either that or evidence
Speaker 1: covering up but you know, or hey yeah, okay, Oh
Speaker 1: another theory. My theory is that it was someone who
Speaker 1: was very upset about the hogs, and perhaps they fed
Speaker 1: the heads to the hogs. Yeah, it's a good theory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know how quickly that's the last ditch effort
Speaker 1: to get in that last punch, like screw you. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're recording, so I won't say what I Yeah, it
Speaker 1: does seem a final act of disrespect to feed the
Speaker 1: heads to the hogs. I'm not sure how quickly a
Speaker 1: hog or a group of hawks could could munch down
Speaker 1: some human skulls. I don't I don't know. Apparently, according
Speaker 1: to TV it's really fast, really like five minutes start
Speaker 1: to finish. Seriously. Okay, well, thank you for that theory,
Speaker 1: and it's hardly possible. Yeah, toss the head to the hogs.
Speaker 1: That is rude, rude. It's all right. So we're talking
Speaker 1: late nineteenth century, right, and we're talking missing livestock. So
Speaker 1: my thought is our favorite villain is trying to establish
Speaker 1: his identity. Oh you know who wanted oh you know.
Speaker 1: And we also know this this individual has a well
Speaker 1: established smoking habit. Yeah. That's a good point, very dangerous
Speaker 1: in a would eight nineties structure. So I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: maybe this was a warning to the family not to
Speaker 1: look too far into the Choopy family, the good one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like the theory they are so maybe the aid said,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe Jacob was like, you know, like investigating
Speaker 1: Choopy and shoop Be decided you know, yeah, he had
Speaker 1: to take him out. I like that there of course
Speaker 1: like that. And there is another theory, which is aliens.
Speaker 1: Why it was? It was just why wait, do you
Speaker 1: want to go into that anymore? Bars? No, No, you're good.
Speaker 1: I think I'm good. Yeah, alright, any other theories, theories?
Speaker 1: More series? Okay, hang on, Oh we've got like we've
Speaker 1: got time, so we got we'll wrap up the episode.
Speaker 1: Thank you all for coming. We're not going to quit
Speaker 1: this though. Do you have any other general questions? Feel
Speaker 1: free to ask, but don't do it all at once.
Speaker 1: Come on, people, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna have it.
Speaker 1: I've got a question, said, don't Does anybody want to
Speaker 1: just come up here and sit here? And we've got
Speaker 1: a question. We've got a question. Question. Hi, um, maybe
Speaker 1: you've answered this before, but I'm just wondering why your
Speaker 1: favorite mystery that you guys have looked into favorite mystery,
Speaker 1: we've looked into our favorite episode. We've done you know what,
Speaker 1: either however you want to respond, however you want to respond,
Speaker 1: go ahead, Yeah I do. And my answer to both
Speaker 1: of them is like City Quiet Pills. I think that's
Speaker 1: probably the best episode I'll ever do in my entire life.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, Devin. I think you'll do better.
Speaker 1: But also I still get like emails from people who
Speaker 1: are like, well, I had this weird experience, and it's
Speaker 1: just like I don't like, I do not like what's
Speaker 1: going on at all there. So that's my answer I
Speaker 1: would say if for me, if it's a story that
Speaker 1: we've covered, it's a split between Blair Adams and Ben McDaniels,
Speaker 1: because both of those have a lot of W two
Speaker 1: T F moments in them. And are we recording anymore?
Speaker 1: Do you just I didn't say anything bad, I used
Speaker 1: letters saying and okay, now kids gonna know what that means. Okay,
Speaker 1: I really can't make up my mind. Actually, just as
Speaker 1: you know, some of you probably know, we just a
Speaker 1: year and a half ago to the thing about the
Speaker 1: murder of Martha Moxley, and now that's back in the news,
Speaker 1: so that sort of kicks it up in my estimation
Speaker 1: a little bit. Michael skekill was conviction was over termed
Speaker 1: by the Connecticut Supreme Court, and so that's kind of
Speaker 1: interesting that that's the story that most of these stories
Speaker 1: are done and over and you know, pretty much in
Speaker 1: the can, and this one keeps on given. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of cool. Um, And let's see what else. I mean.
Speaker 1: I kind of liked some of the boat mysteries. The
Speaker 1: Herbert Poller was one what we did in the last
Speaker 1: year and now, I don't know if you guys remember
Speaker 1: that story. There was a triple ax murder on this
Speaker 1: sailing ship in the middle of the ocean. It's Apropos
Speaker 1: today's story. Yeah, yeah, And it's a cool story because
Speaker 1: these guys are like, you know, three people are asked
Speaker 1: to death, and so that everybody else is in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, there's there's you know, they're a week
Speaker 1: away from anywhere, and there's a murderer among them. And
Speaker 1: on top of that, besides being scared about getting killed,
Speaker 1: they're all sort of quietly pointing fingers at one another
Speaker 1: two because everybody's paranoid about getting blamed for the crime.
Speaker 1: And so I thought that was a really cool story,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's got to do with shifts and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So I like that one. I hope
Speaker 1: you guys liked it to if you didn't listen to it.
Speaker 1: You go listen to it. You just actually heard it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's pretty much. Actually it's a good points. Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 1: You always thought about the scripts that you use, and
Speaker 1: I just want it never sounds like you're on a script.
Speaker 1: This is what they look like. How much do you
Speaker 1: actually you do really write it all out? And then
Speaker 1: the story we just did was five and then Joe
Speaker 1: ignores it comes out I kind of all it really
Speaker 1: does sound off the cuff. Well. So basically what we
Speaker 1: do is we'll write like an essay about the story
Speaker 1: each week if it's so, if it's your week to hope,
Speaker 1: write the essay, the essay the script, and then we
Speaker 1: have copies in front of it, and we done are
Speaker 1: in front of us while recording, and we've done research
Speaker 1: hopefully um over the last couple of weeks, and then
Speaker 1: we kind of so we all know it, but we
Speaker 1: have a reference point if we need to call any
Speaker 1: information up, and then we try to generally follow the script.
Speaker 1: But um sometimes yeah, sometimes it goes really well and
Speaker 1: sometimes it does not go very well. Do you really
Speaker 1: rehearse it or do you know we only rehearse these
Speaker 1: live shows because we can edit the other ones. We
Speaker 1: just look worried about looking dumb in front of real people.
Speaker 1: Do you talk about do you talk about it a
Speaker 1: lot before you do the podcast, or do you want
Speaker 1: it to be fresh so you we don't Joe likes
Speaker 1: to stand around and try and talk about the story.
Speaker 1: I don't like Jojo save it, save it, yeah, because
Speaker 1: we never remember to say it again. Yeah, it's good points,
Speaker 1: but yeah, the scripts are great, just but they're mostly
Speaker 1: there to make sure we tell the story in the
Speaker 1: right order and we don't leave anything out. But other
Speaker 1: than that, it's just like, man, you know, yeah, another question.
Speaker 1: I just wondered his life changed it all for all
Speaker 1: since you made yourselves public lusture not really a little.
Speaker 1: I'm still still fairly we're all still fairly obscure, you know.
Speaker 1: I was like, I just was it just like it
Speaker 1: was Friday? I guess no, Thursday. Um. We were out
Speaker 1: and I was like, I think Jacob and Air and
Speaker 1: a few other people were out and this really attracted
Speaker 1: blonde has your phone? I was like, oh, I want
Speaker 1: to take a picture. I want to take a picture
Speaker 1: of you all, you know, so I'm ready to go
Speaker 1: and go step over and be photographing and she hands
Speaker 1: the camera to me and said the picture. I said, Okay,
Speaker 1: that happened. Yeah, that happened with the captain recently. We
Speaker 1: were out like getting drinks and they're like, you know,
Speaker 1: you guys have seen what happens when he's out. And
Speaker 1: some girl was like, oh, I'm sorry, are you waiting
Speaker 1: in line? And I was like, no, we're going to
Speaker 1: get a drink. No, it's yeah, we don't get I
Speaker 1: don't get recognized. Really, it's just is like online comments
Speaker 1: to change my appearance. That's why the beard happened in hiding.
Speaker 1: Now you count all off. It's people people do stare
Speaker 1: at me, but they were doing that before, So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so it hasn't really changed things for me
Speaker 1: Hi him. Before the case of the Golden State Killer
Speaker 1: was solved, what was your leading theory? Um, this is
Speaker 1: this is going to disappoint every single person in this room.
Speaker 1: But I didn't really have any theories about it, um,
Speaker 1: because it wasn't a case that I really poured any
Speaker 1: time into. It's it's it's let's put it this way.
Speaker 1: The case is ikey, it's gross. Yeah, there's not something
Speaker 1: that I don't think any of us like to sit
Speaker 1: and dwell on that. And there's a number of cases
Speaker 1: like that where there's some pretty horrendous things that happen,
Speaker 1: and sometimes for us, we're always kind of in the
Speaker 1: trenches with that stuff. And so those really big ones,
Speaker 1: it's just easier kind of set him aside, build an
Speaker 1: ice brick wall around them, and think him in the
Speaker 1: ocean and never think about it again. Because but Joe
Speaker 1: might have some theories. Do you have some series? Uh?
Speaker 1: Not really now I have. I looked into the case
Speaker 1: a little bit and read some of the history, and
Speaker 1: my first thought was because when we look at a story,
Speaker 1: or at least when I do, I think, Okay, is
Speaker 1: this story got a really good hook to it? Is
Speaker 1: there's something really interesting about it? Because not every murder
Speaker 1: is interesting, Frankly, I hate to hate to put it
Speaker 1: that way, but they're not. And so I said, is
Speaker 1: there something interesting? And also the next thing as well,
Speaker 1: can I cramming a really good elucidation of the entire
Speaker 1: thing in an hour or two, an hour and a
Speaker 1: half episode? And when you look at this one, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this guy was just like you know, he
Speaker 1: was prolific. I mean, for a long time, and so
Speaker 1: just going through the descriptions of his crime would have
Speaker 1: taken at least an hour and a half, and there's
Speaker 1: no time for given theories. And that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons I set this one aside. It's just just so big.
Speaker 1: Some of these stories are just so big that and
Speaker 1: we're not serial. You know, we were serial, you know,
Speaker 1: it would be a little easier to do. But and
Speaker 1: so if you want to fund us, so yeah, and
Speaker 1: so I never ruled it out totally. I just sort
Speaker 1: of set it aside and said, I'm not sure, set
Speaker 1: that one aside. Sorry, we're not the true crime words
Speaker 1: everyone wants us to be. I'm sorry. I seriously have
Speaker 1: thought every now and again, I'm thinking what to do,
Speaker 1: and I'll look at oh yeah, there's that one, you know,
Speaker 1: and then and I and I did it again recently,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden it's solved. Okay, I
Speaker 1: crossed off the list. Glad we didn't do it, unless
Speaker 1: it turns out the police screwed up, which is also
Speaker 1: possible to that never happens, thank you ever. Hi. Hello,
Speaker 1: So this is my first time listening to you guys.
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry if you've already entered this, but also
Speaker 1: you're awesome, Thank you, thank you. My question is what
Speaker 1: first got you guys interested in true crime? Well, I
Speaker 1: for me, it's not true crime, it's unsolved mysteries. And
Speaker 1: I think the like question mark is really enticing to me.
Speaker 1: I grew up watching the Unsolved Mysteries show and listening
Speaker 1: to Art Bell. Uh, and you know that that I
Speaker 1: think really just kind of informed that drive. I don't know,
Speaker 1: there are some cases that we covered really really early on, um,
Speaker 1: like the tom and food and the lead mass case,
Speaker 1: and these just really bizarre things from history that just
Speaker 1: it's how do you answer that? It's just so weird? Um,
Speaker 1: And just trying to figure those things out was just
Speaker 1: really enticing to me. So, um, that's what drew me
Speaker 1: to this whole universe. I would say that works. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll say, I'll see, didn't do that? What's that? So?
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, that's a cup out? You can't do that? Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know exactly. I mean I
Speaker 1: read a lot of Sherlock Holmes and stuff like that
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, you know, and but I've
Speaker 1: never really been a true grand fanatic. My entire life
Speaker 1: but now, and then we decided to do a podcast.
Speaker 1: Sorry right contemporary It's okay, okay, uh yeah, yeah, thanks
Speaker 1: to the questions. Uh. And then just after we started
Speaker 1: doing the podcast and and doing the mystery stuff, I
Speaker 1: got much more back into it, you know, more like
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and so it's been very fun.
Speaker 1: I really enjoy this stuff. Turn So this is you
Speaker 1: ever have those things where you're a kid and your
Speaker 1: family does something and it drives you absolutely crazy, and
Speaker 1: then one day you realize you're doing it. My family
Speaker 1: would sit around and they would just chew the fat
Speaker 1: about things and just keep doing it. And you know,
Speaker 1: I could play my Nintendo and I didn't want to
Speaker 1: think about it and stopped talking. And then one day
Speaker 1: I started reading these things and going, oh, well what
Speaker 1: about and I would find myself I'm sure as these
Speaker 1: two would you just sit there for days and days
Speaker 1: and days just chewing through it and trying to come
Speaker 1: up with theories, and hours and hours and hours for me,
Speaker 1: but well, you've got short attention to spend m But
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's really how it worked for me.
Speaker 1: There was something hypnotic about that, you know, it's like
Speaker 1: sometimes when I'm actually doing this stuff, I can actually like,
Speaker 1: you know, most of my other compulsions, like you know,
Speaker 1: caffeine or you know whatever, nicotine, I just they just
Speaker 1: get set to the side. You know. It's like not
Speaker 1: most things don't make me overlook those things. But sometimes
Speaker 1: when I'm hot, on the tail of a hot mystery,
Speaker 1: I can even like I can stop, you know, I
Speaker 1: can even neglect some of my other things, my o,
Speaker 1: their addictions. You're talking about your job. We all do
Speaker 1: the job too. Yeah, more questions anyone now, okay, okay, well,
Speaker 1: now alight, time for some impersonations. Okay, oh Joe, you
Speaker 1: are so sexy. Okay, any others? All right, Well, thank
Speaker 1: you everybody. Did you come and enjoy crash On? Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Now, hold on, guys, this has
Speaker 1: been going good, and we're recording this so we're gonna
Speaker 1: release this on the show. So we're gonna show you
Speaker 1: how the magic of podcasting works. So bear with me.
Speaker 1: But first let's take a break. This is when we
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. You can't go to the bathroom
Speaker 1: yet now and we're back. I know, it's amazing, it's
Speaker 1: totally amazing. It sounds different when you hear it on
Speaker 1: the podcast. That'll be a really cool ad. In the middle,
Speaker 1: there'll be some great music in there. Listeners made that
Speaker 1: for us, love that music.