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Speaker 1: It wasn't safe for us to leave Sinaloa cartel territory,

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Speaker 1: so we actually stayed with them until that night and

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Speaker 1: spent a day filming them while they did cocaine and

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Speaker 1: showed us their cache of guns.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Bobby Bones here. My next guest is really

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Speaker 2: one of the most legit people I've ever met. It's

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Speaker 2: Marianna van Zeller. Just summer accolades. She's an Emmy and

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Speaker 2: a Peabot Award winning investigative journalist. She has gone and

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Speaker 2: done it all. Like we talked about the cartel where

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Speaker 2: she was with the cartel, but she hosted a show

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Speaker 2: called Trafficked on nat GEO and it was everything from

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Speaker 2: cartel to like black market to it's crazy. You should

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Speaker 2: go and watch those if you can, because they're so good.

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Speaker 2: She has a podcast that I feel like as a

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Speaker 2: version of that as well, just a little more long form.

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Speaker 2: It's called The Hidden Third, and she sits down with people.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking smugs, hackers, survivors, whistleblowers, but just about her.

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Speaker 2: She speaks five languages, she rides motorcycles. I am constantly

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Speaker 2: in fear for her life and she is not which

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Speaker 2: we talk about, but She's really one of the coolest

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Speaker 2: people that I know. I think you're gonna love this.

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Speaker 2: Here she is Marianna Vanzeller. I've been super excited to

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Speaker 2: do this one, but I want to say ahead of time,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask questions that seem of probably lesser intelligence.

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Speaker 2: And it's not on purpose, like I'm not asking these

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Speaker 2: questions to be a dumb guy. I think in some

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Speaker 2: of these these worlds you live, and I am a

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Speaker 2: dumb guy, So I'm not being funny.

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Speaker 1: I think most people are more ignorant about the worlds

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Speaker 1: that I because you know it is the hidden third, right,

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Speaker 1: It's worlds that people don't usually know much about, but

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Speaker 1: that affects all of us. So there are no dumb questions.

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Speaker 2: You don't know yet I haven't got there. So between

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Speaker 2: the podcast and between Trafficked and I was exposed to

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Speaker 2: halfway through your run of Traffic and then I've watched

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Speaker 2: many on because I had a show on that GEO

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Speaker 2: didn't last as long, but you would follow my show

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Speaker 2: sometimes yeah, and so I would go, man, this one's

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Speaker 2: gonna die, Like I would watch it kind of like

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Speaker 2: watching a NASCAR race to see if there are Rex

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Speaker 2: and I'd be like, she's gonna get got this this episode.

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Speaker 2: For sure? You never died. I never died, And did

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Speaker 2: you ever feel like you might in any of these situations,

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Speaker 2: like you genuinely had fear?

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Speaker 1: I mean not like that. I don't if I went

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Speaker 1: to do my job thinking that there was an actual

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Speaker 1: chance that I would die, I would be it would

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Speaker 1: be impossible for me to do it, so it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be that rational. But there were many moments, so in

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Speaker 1: many ways, I always think that I'm going to be

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Speaker 1: able to or else. No story is worth the life, right,

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Speaker 1: So I wouldn't be doing it if I actually thought

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Speaker 1: there was a chance of me or any my team

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Speaker 1: would get harmed. But there are many times during filming

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Speaker 1: where you know, shit hits the fan and then things

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Speaker 1: get really scary.

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Speaker 2: Because you're not with the most trustworthy folks that are

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Speaker 2: having to make a lot of tough decisions.

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Speaker 1: I am not, but we spend months, sometimes even years,

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Speaker 1: trying to get people to talk to us. So once

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Speaker 1: we're inside that groups, for example the sinal Low cartel, Right,

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Speaker 1: you just don't show up in Sinaloa and knock on

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Speaker 1: a door or show up at the you know where,

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Speaker 1: we know the Fentony Labs are and knock on the

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Speaker 1: door and say, hey, we want to film this. It

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Speaker 1: takes us months, years of connections and trying to build

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Speaker 1: trust and trying to get them to believe us and

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Speaker 1: trust us, and only then can we go inside. And

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Speaker 1: so once that happens, there is a certain level of protection.

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Speaker 1: But what I when I talk about shit hitting the

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Speaker 1: fan is that you can be with the sina Lo

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Speaker 1: cartel and sort of be protected by them. But I've

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Speaker 1: been in many situations where the Marines show up or

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Speaker 1: they're close by, and then sort of full panic ensues

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Speaker 1: and you have to make a quick decision of what

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Speaker 1: do you do. Do you stay here, do you follow them?

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Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. We were doing a story

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Speaker 1: about gun trafficking, how American guns are ending up in

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Speaker 1: Mexico and being used for the violence that's happening down there,

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Speaker 1: and we were with a sceno. We're actually with a

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Speaker 1: bunch of cicarios with gunmen, and they were showing us

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Speaker 1: how they used the American the guns and how they trained.

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Speaker 1: They were training. They were showing us, you know, they

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Speaker 1: were shooting at watermelons and the whole time they have

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Speaker 1: walkie talkies with them always and they can hear the chatter.

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Speaker 1: And even if you ask for sound reasons, can you

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Speaker 1: turn off their walkie talkies? Absolutely not, because they need

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Speaker 1: to know if the enemy is coming, where the Mexican

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Speaker 1: military will show up. The communication has to be on

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Speaker 1: all the time. And so I start hearing that the

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Speaker 1: chatter was getting louder and louder, and at one point

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Speaker 1: one of the guys looks and says, flock, the Marines

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Speaker 1: are coming. And the Marines are sort of the bad

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Speaker 1: guys in the military. That's the ones that they're really

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Speaker 1: afraid and they are known to shoot first and ask

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Speaker 1: questions last.

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Speaker 2: The Marines in Mexico, in Mexican, Mexican.

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Speaker 1: Mexican Marines. Yes, the Mexican Marines. So sore they start running.

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Speaker 1: We were in the middle of the mountains, but sort

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Speaker 1: of in an open area with no roads. It was

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Speaker 1: just start roads to get there, and they ran to

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Speaker 1: their cars, and then it was us running after them

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Speaker 1: with all our gear, you know, carrying big cameras and

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Speaker 1: tripods and lights and whatnot. And we get there and

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Speaker 1: we're seeing they get into their car and disappear, and

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Speaker 1: we're stuck in the situation.

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Speaker 3: What we do.

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Speaker 1: Do we get in our car and go after them,

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Speaker 1: and if the Marines start shooting from the helicopters, they're

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Speaker 1: going to think that.

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Speaker 2: We are part from the helicopter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were coming in helicopters.

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Speaker 2: So the threat was from them from a helicopter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, I forgot to mention that part. And so

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Speaker 1: do we follow them and then they will maybe think

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Speaker 1: if they start shooting at them, they'll certainly start shooting

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Speaker 1: at us too. Or do we stay behind and sort

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Speaker 1: of hide under a tree, which will be really suspicious too,

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Speaker 1: and then they could start shooting at us anyway. So

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Speaker 1: we just thought, Okay, they're probably more equipped and more

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Speaker 1: prepared to know what to do at this point, so

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Speaker 1: we follow them out of there. In the end, we

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Speaker 1: were safe, and we ended up spending the whole It

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Speaker 1: wasn't safe for us to leave Sinaloa cartel territory, so

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Speaker 1: we actually stayed with them until that night and spent

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Speaker 1: a day filming them while they did cocaine and show

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Speaker 1: does their cache of guns. And it was a crazy day.

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Speaker 2: And to them, that's like a Tuesday, right.

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Speaker 1: That is very much like a Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: To us, especially to me, but to you that you're

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Speaker 2: going down because this is an event, this is something

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Speaker 2: that you're documenting that's worth documenting. Yes, but to them

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Speaker 2: it's just a day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is just a day. And for us to

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Speaker 1: be able to have the privilege or the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: show that, you know, that's not something that you get

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Speaker 1: access to all the time. And so to be able

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Speaker 1: to be on the ground and see what a day

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Speaker 1: inside the Sinalo Cartel looks like is I think, really

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Speaker 1: powerful and really demonstrative of one of the biggest threats

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Speaker 1: to national security, which is in many ways the production

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Speaker 1: of drugs that comes from groups like the Sinalo Cartel.

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Speaker 2: How active or how interested are cartels in Middle Midwest America?

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Speaker 2: Because I think at California and obviously think the big Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I live in Nashville.

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Speaker 1: That's such a good question, see.

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Speaker 2: Are they there?

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Speaker 1: Great question.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that's a dumb question because I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's not a dumb question at all. So we did

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Speaker 1: a story for the last season of Traffic season five

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Speaker 1: called Cartel USA because the more I reported on the cartel,

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Speaker 1: the more I realized that first there's an enormous presence

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Speaker 1: of the cartel here, but also that it's not exactly

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Speaker 1: what you expect. So I started realizing that there was

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Speaker 1: a lot more presence of the cartel in small town

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Speaker 1: America than most people know. We think of cartel, we

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Speaker 1: think of drug distribution, We think la and New York, Chicago,

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Speaker 1: big cities, and through my reporting, I started realizing, wait,

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Speaker 1: this is not exactly the case. And also we think

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Speaker 1: the cartel and we think Mexicans living here, right, But

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Speaker 1: I started realizing that was also not just that the case,

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Speaker 1: that there were actually American citizens working and collaborating and

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Speaker 1: for the cartel and part of the cartel. So we

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Speaker 1: did that story, and yeah, one of the biggest revelations

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Speaker 1: was we spent a lot of time with the cartel

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Speaker 1: in small talent in America. In fact, the episode starts

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Speaker 1: with a case in Georgia in a small town in

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Speaker 1: Georgia was actually sort of in the woods where there

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Speaker 1: was a woman who was killed by a member of

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Speaker 1: a cartel and it started a massive investigation and they

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Speaker 1: realized again that there was a massive presence of the cartel.

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Speaker 1: And then in fact, they prefer small towns because there's

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Speaker 1: less law enforcement, so there's less eyes on them and

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Speaker 1: they're able to sort of do their work distribution and

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Speaker 1: selling the drugs much much easier.

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Speaker 2: So are there generic white dudes like me that are

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Speaker 2: in the cartel in America?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: One of the people we interviewed that was my favorite interview,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite interviews ever on traffic was a

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Speaker 1: guy that we called the El Gringo because he was

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Speaker 1: a gringo.

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Speaker 2: I get called that by all my Mexican friend. Can

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Speaker 2: I live in Texas for a long time? I know that?

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Speaker 2: I was like, yes, that's me, Yes, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 1: We thought it was a brilliant name because he doesn't

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Speaker 1: even speak a word of it of Spanish and I

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Speaker 1: don't even think he's been to Mexico. But he had

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Speaker 1: connections with the cartel. He was involved in the drug business,

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Speaker 1: and then they real he was a really good distributor.

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Speaker 1: But he is what was amazing when I asked him, so,

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Speaker 1: I was, how do you distribute your drugs? Because he

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Speaker 1: would get massive amounts of fentanyl, math, cocaine, whatever it

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Speaker 1: was that the cartel had and wanted him to distribute.

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Speaker 1: It's not as if he can ask I want ten

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Speaker 1: kilos of cocaine, ship it to me. It's whatever the

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Speaker 1: cartel decides, it's what he's going to be shipped. And

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Speaker 1: once he has it, he has to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to distribute across you US and to his different buyers

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Speaker 1: all over a lot of them in small town America.

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Speaker 1: And then he decided he realized that the best way

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Speaker 1: to do this was through Delta Airlines. Was actually commercial airlines,

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Speaker 1: particularly Delta, because they have a really good weight fee

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Speaker 1: what luggage. It's called the luggage baggage fee, which you

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Speaker 1: can get like seventy pounds for free or something like that.

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Speaker 1: So so, and that's how he distributes most of his drugs.

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Speaker 1: Isn't it mind blowing?

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Speaker 2: How do they not notice what's going through? Do they

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Speaker 2: covered in something that doesn't allow the machines to see through?

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Speaker 2: Are they scientific so scientifically advanced?

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Speaker 1: I don't think the machines notice. I do think they're

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Speaker 1: very scientifically not scientifically advanced, but they are very smart.

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Speaker 1: I once filmed a sentinel being wrapped up and hidden

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Speaker 1: inside in a way that was not detectable on the

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Speaker 1: border crossing, and that was mind blowing. How they use

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Speaker 1: tinfoil so it's not detected by the machines, how they

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Speaker 1: use like softener and coffee powder so it's not detected

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Speaker 1: by the dogs. And it was all this way that

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Speaker 1: they can come across and I think they possibly use

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Speaker 1: I didn't actually see them hiding the drugs in the

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Speaker 1: case of Elgringo, but he says what he does is

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Speaker 1: that he uses women. A lot of the times it's

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Speaker 1: women carrying the bags, and a lot of times it's strippers.

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Speaker 2: Actually, I had a friend that was an Olympic athlete,

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Speaker 2: and what this reminds me of is with steroids or

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Speaker 2: any performance dancing drugs, I should say, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's easy to say steroids that he would say, if

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Speaker 2: you got caught using, you're as dumb as a rock.

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Speaker 2: Because the users were so far ahead of how they

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Speaker 2: were trying to find the people using that they were

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Speaker 2: months ahead. So if any trace, if anything was found,

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Speaker 2: you just didn't follow easy protocol to follow that the

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Speaker 2: people that would get busted he would be shocked. He

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Speaker 2: would go, either they were so sloppy or that wasn't

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Speaker 2: what it is was a trace of something else that

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Speaker 2: was confused and a bit it sounds like that where

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Speaker 2: they know how they're searching they're ahead of it a bit,

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Speaker 2: so they're able to beat it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we are not even talking about corruption, where

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Speaker 1: a lot of times what happens. And this was instrumental

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Speaker 1: in our whole reporting for Cartel USA. I think it

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Speaker 1: was the sort of scariest learning, Even more than the

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Speaker 1: fact that they are Americans operating within the cartel and

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Speaker 1: the fact that they're operating in small town America, was

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Speaker 1: realizing the extent of corruption that exists. You would not

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Speaker 1: have the level of drugs in this country, distribution of

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Speaker 1: drugs in this country, even if they come from Mexico,

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Speaker 1: without an enormous level of corruption, everything from small town

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Speaker 1: police offices and sheriff departments to federal agencies. And this

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Speaker 1: was something that was corroborated not only with cartel people

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Speaker 1: that I spoke to, but also with law enforcement agencies

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Speaker 1: them agents themselves, who said it is known, this is happening.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like people in the cartel see themselves

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Speaker 2: as bad guys or they're just a part of society

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Speaker 2: in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: That's another really great question. I don't think. I think

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Speaker 1: they see themselves as opportunists. I think that the majority

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Speaker 1: of the people in Mexico. Not here, but the majority

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Speaker 1: of people in the cartel in Mexico grew up with

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Speaker 1: their family members being part of the cartel. Trust is

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Speaker 1: really important in a system where you don't have a

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Speaker 1: justice department, right, you can't go to court if your

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Speaker 1: partner wrongs you, or if somebody steals drugs or money

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Speaker 1: from you. So trust is essential. So it's very much

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Speaker 1: a family oriented business and it's all about you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: trust And so you know, if you grew up and

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Speaker 1: your dad is in the cartel, your grandfather is part

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Speaker 1: of the cartel, you don't see yourself as the bad guy.

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Speaker 1: You see yourself this is the business, this is the

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Speaker 1: family business. And we're and what's wrong with America? There's

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Speaker 1: all these people there that.

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Speaker 2: Want our drugs or be the bad guy to them.

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Speaker 1: Vantage I don't think we're the bad were the dumb

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Speaker 1: guy since we I think we're more the we're the consumers.

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Speaker 1: We're actually the cash cow.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: The cash cow to me is like somebody who is

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Speaker 2: pretty dumb and they're willing to spend their money on something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, again and again. When I asked that question, which

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Speaker 1: is a lot of times, I want to know why

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Speaker 1: they do what they do. But most importantly I also

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Speaker 1: want to do ask them the crud questions. Do you

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Speaker 1: feel bad for doing this? Do you realize that there's

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Speaker 1: thousands of Americans that are dying every year from the

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Speaker 1: products that you were shipping north and again and again?

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Speaker 1: The question I get is, I mean not really. They

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Speaker 1: are doing it because they want to. And if it

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Speaker 1: were me doing it, somebody else would ship it, so

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Speaker 1: at least I'm the one making money and providing for

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Speaker 1: my family.

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Speaker 2: If it were me and I were down there and

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Speaker 2: you asked me that question, I would go look at

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Speaker 2: Big Pharma, or look at fast food, or look at

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Speaker 2: sugar or look at Yeah. I mean, that would be

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Speaker 2: my answer, because all that seems like that's just part

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Speaker 2: of American culture. We just eat bad and get fat,

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Speaker 2: or we just have a bunch of sugar, or we yeah.

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Speaker 1: And even more interesting than that, I think, is the

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Speaker 1: idea that actually the opiate crisis, in particular being a

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Speaker 1: fananel has been the biggest cash cow and here Win

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Speaker 1: before that for the cartel, and it's enormously responsible for

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Speaker 1: only the depths in America, but also the violence and

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Speaker 1: the growth of the cartels in Mexico and other countries

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Speaker 1: in Latin America. But it's a crisis that started in America.

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Speaker 1: It was made in the USA by pharmaceutical companies. So

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Speaker 1: we started it, and we created this sort of enormous

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Speaker 1: consumer market for the cartel to then exploit.

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Speaker 2: My last cartel question, do you think we would ever

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Speaker 2: go down and try to fight them for any reason?

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Speaker 2: There's been talk recently of are we going to deploy

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Speaker 2: troops and in Mexico to fight the cartel because now

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Speaker 2: they're making a big deal about you know, in Venezuela,

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Speaker 2: they're bombing the drug boats. There's no phenol those of

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Speaker 2: Venezuela and drug boats like there wasn't and some of

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Speaker 2: those drug boats they weren't even drug boats. They're just

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Speaker 2: the featl in the water with families that fish. And

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Speaker 2: so now the talk has been, well, we might go

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Speaker 2: into Mexico and fight the cartel. Would that ever happen?

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's a smart strategy. I think that

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Speaker 1: we're trying to We've been The war on drugs has

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Speaker 1: existed for decades. It hasn't done anything, no dabt. I

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Speaker 1: mean billions and billions of dollars spent and we are

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Speaker 1: losing more people to drugs nowadays than ever I think

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Speaker 1: that we are. This is a public health crisis that

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Speaker 1: we're seeing in the United States. One of the episodes

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Speaker 1: we did also in this last season is about trank dope,

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Speaker 1: which is the fourth wave of the upiate crisis. So

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Speaker 1: it started with prescription pills like oxycotton. It moved to

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Speaker 1: heroin when people couldn't find their prescription pills, as you know,

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Speaker 1: and then it moved to fentanyla. Now we're seeing the

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Speaker 1: fourth wave, which is fentanyl being mixed with a tranquilizer,

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Speaker 1: an animal tranquilizer called xylazine. And what's happening. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you've seen the videos in places like Kensington and Philadelphia

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Speaker 1: where we filmed that where you see the zombies, right,

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Speaker 1: people that are.

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Speaker 2: Y're bent over, yes, walking the streets bent over yet exactly.

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Speaker 1: So we spent a lot of time there reporting and

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Speaker 1: filming people and speaking and talking to these folks. And

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Speaker 1: they have massive wounds like it looks like leprosy, like

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Speaker 1: open wounds with it is just the most disturbing thing

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen. And this is caused by tranke dope.

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Speaker 1: And so to answer your question, which was do I

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Speaker 1: think that, oh, so this is a public health crisis, right,

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Speaker 1: it's not. So trying to fight at public health crisis

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Speaker 1: with law enforcement and the military is not a solution.

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Speaker 1: What we have to really understand is what is happening

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Speaker 1: in the United States? Why are there so many people

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Speaker 1: out on the streets living in these conditions. If it

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Speaker 1: was actual leprosy, we would never allow this to happen.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: If this was an actual illness that you had and

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Speaker 1: you'd see Americans out on the streets passing out, you

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Speaker 1: would figure out a way to help them. In this case,

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Speaker 1: we're just you know, massive amounts of homeless population exploding.

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Speaker 1: We're just abandoning this, you know, millions of Americans essentially,

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Speaker 1: and not real not figuring out a solution to actually

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Speaker 1: help them, because once you curtail demand, you're going to

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Speaker 1: have an impact on the supply.

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Speaker 2: I come from a small town of seven hundred. People

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Speaker 2: in my town and towns around it have dealt with

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Speaker 2: the opioid crisis. It's been a tremendous problem, and it

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Speaker 2: got worse as pills got easier to get and where

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Speaker 2: there is an investment in education, and people would ask me, like,

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Speaker 2: why do people get on drugs just for me being

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Speaker 2: around it? It's like, well, when there are no other

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Speaker 2: options for happiness at all, and something can actually alleviate

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Speaker 2: the pain, and there's no way out you alleviates pain,

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Speaker 2: and when I look at ways to fix it, because

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Speaker 2: I've flirted with the idea of running for office, but

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Speaker 2: my issues are so not sexy. It's if people can't

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Speaker 2: eat and if people aren't educated, you're going to see

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Speaker 2: this pattern continue because at the root of all of it,

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Speaker 2: that's what it is. And it's towns that have no resources.

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Speaker 2: It's folks that have no resources that their last resort

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Speaker 2: is drugs. It's not like people want to go and

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Speaker 2: be an opioid addict.

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Speaker 1: I mean nobody wants.

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Speaker 2: Nobody raises their hand and says I'll be an opioid addict.

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Speaker 2: And so but this country, for as rich as we are,

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Speaker 2: we don't invest in that, which is the craziest thing

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Speaker 2: to me just as a citizen, as somebody who's come

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Speaker 2: up for being really really poor to now I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: rich and to be able to see it from now

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Speaker 2: as to how I get protected. But people are just

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Speaker 2: left alone, that abandoned. Yes, Yeah, it's really sad, it really.

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Speaker 1: Is, and I think you should run for office because

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Speaker 1: I think that is what is wrong with America right now.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: But when I say I want to make sure kids

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Speaker 2: can eat as my number one issue, and so the

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Speaker 2: kids can be educated, and that's very much an evolutionary

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Speaker 2: more than a revolutionary, and there's a massive difference, and

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Speaker 2: it's almost like you have to approach them both at

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Speaker 2: the same time. And you've got a quick fix and

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Speaker 2: band aid things so people can actually feel movement while

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Speaker 2: you're also building the long term infrastructure because if the

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Speaker 2: fundamental setting of that takes forever, much less to growth.

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Speaker 2: So if you can provide people food, you can provide

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Speaker 2: people slight leisure, slight leisure and access to education. You're

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Speaker 2: not going to fix everybody mental health care. But those

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Speaker 2: things aren't sexy, especially in a land of getting elected

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Speaker 2: and getting likes and getting shares, because you're polarizing. That's

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Speaker 2: just not the environment. I haven't found it to be

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Speaker 2: conducive of anyone actually wanting to make a change or

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Speaker 2: the ability given to them unless they're yelling things and

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Speaker 2: also trying to fix things secretly. And that's such a

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Speaker 2: hard mix.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what's so sad with the political system right now,

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Speaker 1: and that's why we can't figure out how to actually

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Speaker 1: find solutions instead of yelling at each other. It's really

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Speaker 1: any time I talk about anything, it becomes political. Nowadays,

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Speaker 1: it's very a you know, whatever it is, whether I

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Speaker 1: talk even about addiction, even when I talk when I

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Speaker 1: go on, when I talk about addiction, even on my

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Speaker 1: own podcast, it's immediately what are you talking about? Addicts

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Speaker 1: are just addicts because they want to or you know,

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Speaker 1: it's everything suddenly is polariz polarizing.

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Speaker 2: And there's, Yeah, where I have trouble with that is, well,

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Speaker 2: I grew up and my mom had me at sixteen.

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Speaker 2: She got pregnant fifteen, so she was already poor. And

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Speaker 2: you have a kid at sixteen years old and you're

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Speaker 2: already poor. There's really very few avenues out of that.

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Speaker 2: And she ended up dying in her forties from addiction.

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Speaker 2: A lot of meth made right there, like I see it,

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Speaker 2: and there was no She chose to go to rehab

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Speaker 2: many times. She didn't choose to die, but I had

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Speaker 2: the understanding of her choice was to not feel terrible

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Speaker 2: all the time, and her only way to alleviate any

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Speaker 2: of that pain was through drugs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that is one of the ways that

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Speaker 1: people get addicted to drugs. The other is actually just

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Speaker 1: going to the doctor, just getting surgery, as we.

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00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: Know, just because they will prescribe them like crazy. Yeah.

436
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 2: There's a book that I reference a lot. It's Gobormaite

437
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,119
Speaker 2: in the Realms of Ghosts, And I read that and

438
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 2: how some people are predisposed to addiction and you kind

439
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,120
Speaker 2: of don't know unless you hit it. Yeah, like who

440
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 2: I've never I've never had drink of alcohol and never

441
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 2: tried a drug because I'm so scared of it because

442
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 2: I saw it so much. I would love to. I

443
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,560
Speaker 2: think it'd be awesome. I had flirted with this idea

444
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 2: of a show called Bobby Does Drugs and it's the

445
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: first time that I try everything, like everything from doing

446
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 2: a shot and in episode two, I smoke weeds. Episode seven,

447
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 2: I do heroin.

448
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 1: Tell me where's that could happen?

449
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 2: Right? Tell me that would to be a good show,

450
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 2: Such a good show.

451
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,280
Speaker 1: You know, I would do that with you because I

452
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,400
Speaker 1: have also never tried anything except for weed.

453
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 2: And you've never seen all the cocaine and thought not,

454
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 2: I want to do it, but like a police officer

455
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 2: can't be a capital. They get tased and pepper sprayed.

456
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 1: Never tried it. Wow, And I mean more than being

457
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: in with a Sema little cartel and seeing production, or

458
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 1: in Colombian and Peru and seeing production of cocaine or fandanel.

459
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: More than that being in social situations with friends and

460
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 1: them doing cocaine or ecstasy. I've been that and that.

461
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure you have too many, many many times, but

462
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: I've never It's more than just It's not so much

463
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: about being scared. I'm generally knock you're not. I don't

464
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,320
Speaker 1: like I love to drink alcohol. I have two glasses

465
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: and that's it. Anything else. When I start feeling like

466
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: I'm not in control, I don't like it anymore.

467
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: So that's I would love to try a hallucinogenic. I

468
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 2: would love to try at all. Don't get me wrong,

469
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 2: but I think I would love to like trip on something,

470
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 2: except I don't want a bad trip and you can't

471
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: choose your trip.

472
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,479
Speaker 1: I've heard, Wait, you're not afraid. I'm I'm so afraid

473
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 1: of taking a listeners genic and then who knows where

474
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 1: it's going to take me? That scares me much armed

475
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 1: men with the guns.

476
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 2: No, not me. I the guns will get me. There's

477
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 2: a fear, but I've I think I'm a little more curious.

478
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,239
Speaker 2: But maybe I am so fearful because I've never done it.

479
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 2: I'm a curious person just generally speaking. I at one

480
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 2: point I had some issues where I got jumped outside

481
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: of work. I had my house broken into, I had

482
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 2: numerous death threats.

483
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: Oh wow, this was fue.

484
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 2: Different times through my career. As I started to have

485
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: more success, my platform got bigger and I left myself

486
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: extremely exposed. And so I'm just walking to work at

487
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: four in the morning, and one of the instances, a

488
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 2: guy I had just been just watching me through the

489
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: night trying to figure out when I was coming in,

490
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: so he, you know, chasing me with a knife. I

491
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: get jumped outside the building. So I had some bad

492
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 2: PTSD to where I would close my eyes and it

493
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: was always somebody attacking me. And so I went to

494
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 2: my doctor and I wasn't sleeping, so I was sick always,

495
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 2: and in my job, if I have a sore throat,

496
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: I've got to talk for five hours in the morning.

497
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: And so I told him I'm so scared of being

498
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 2: addicted to something, so let's with that in mind, let's progress.

499
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 2: And I would try all of the and nothing worked.

500
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: I was going to therapy and I was doing EDMT,

501
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: I was doing everything possible. I was investing in getting better,

502
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: and it just wasn't helping. And I was sleeping forty

503
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: five minutes a night sometimes, or I would find I

504
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 2: would go to hotels randomly and just stay so I

505
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 2: could get sleep because I felt protected by the walls, right,

506
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 2: So I would create barriers. And we got to the

507
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: point to where he said, you can try a sleeping pill.

508
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: And it had been seven eight months in the process,

509
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 2: and I was getting no sleep. So I tried a

510
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: sleeping pill. And I don't remember stuff I was doing

511
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: while I was taking the sleeping pills, So I would

512
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 2: what were you taking edu Lar ed U L A R.

513
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: And so I think it was just one of the

514
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: versions of like your generic sleeping pill. I could probably

515
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 2: look that up, but I remember it was edu Lar,

516
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: And I was so afraid that I would take it

517
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,719
Speaker 2: like on a flight or something, and I would next thing,

518
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: you know, I'd be arrested because I like took a

519
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: dump in the airline, like in the aisle or something,

520
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: because I was so scared of what I wasn't what

521
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know I was doing. So I stopped, like

522
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: I stopped immediately. I had such withdrawal, and I had

523
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: such crazy withdrawal, and like I could my eyes were open,

524
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: but it was all black, like it was all to

525
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 2: where I just had and I would shave and I

526
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: went through withdrawal. To me, it felt so crazy. I

527
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: had never felt closer to my mom because she had

528
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: tried to get off drugs so many times. And we'll

529
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: talk about withdrawal, and I didn't go through a tenth

530
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: one hundred of what she would do, and it was

531
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: I kind of understood a little bit then, and I'm

532
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: not grateful for it, but I definitely see the value

533
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: in that happening to me because it gave me a

534
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 2: window into her life and why it was a revolving

535
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: door and why she could not get clean before she died.

536
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 2: I mean, she she was never clean. She would try,

537
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 2: but yeah, I'm afraid of what I'll do as a

538
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 2: parent by me stop stopping taking the pills.

539
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 1: So how did you get better? By the way of

540
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: the fear and a.

541
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: Lot of therapy, full time security, I also a starting

542
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 2: to make more money, so I just compensated by like

543
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: providing those barriers around me, lots of alarms, guns, you know,

544
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: work for the cartel. Now run and here we go.

545
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick pause for a message from our sponsor,

546
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: and we're back on the Bobby Cast.

547
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 2: Do you think there is innate evil? Uh?

548
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: You know, I I think there is, but I think

549
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: it's very uh little amount in the world compared to

550
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: you know, I live surrounded by the people who consider

551
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 1: the bad guys right in the work that I do,

552
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: and very rarely am I not able to see humanity

553
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 1: in people. The vast majority of times people, no one

554
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 1: is I always say this, No one is born wanting

555
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: to be a criminal. There are a few people out

556
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: there that, you know, think that being part of a

557
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: gang or you know, being a pimp or whatever is cool,

558
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: and they gravitate to us a lot of times it's

559
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: actually circumstance. But anyway, the majority of times the people

560
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: that I sit cross are people just like you and me.

561
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: They're like mothers and fathers and our neighbors, and they're

562
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: people who'se you know, goal in life is happiness and

563
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: to be able to provide for their families and because

564
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: of circumstance, lack of opportunity, lack of jobs, or the

565
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 1: environment they grow up in. If your family is in

566
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: the cartel or if your you know, hometown heroes are pimps,

567
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: that's what you're gonna want to be. So that's a

568
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: lot more what leads people to life of crime than

569
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: it is somebody being born evil or you know, wanting

570
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: to be a criminal from the start.

571
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: I feel the same way.

572
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I see it again and again. I mean,

573
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: I can tell you individual stories. I'll never forget the kid,

574
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: sixteen seventeen year old kid that we interviewed in Peru,

575
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: we had just filmed inside a massive cocaine lab out

576
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: in the jungle in the Amazon rainforest. Is incredible. It's

577
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: like an open pit of coca leaves that they are

578
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: then adding chemicals to to make cocaine paste to then

579
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 1: transform into the powder that is shipped mostly here to

580
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: the United States and Europe. And I was filming a

581
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: part of We're doing this whole supper, and we're filming

582
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 1: the part where the kids there's these like teenagers that

583
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: take the cocaine from the Amazon rainforest over the mountains

584
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: to the capitol where then it's distributed. And these are

585
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: kids with like massive amounts of cocaine on their back,

586
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: traveling for days and nights on end, camping out in

587
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: the open, and some of them being killed by rival

588
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 1: groups that tried to steal from them. And so this

589
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: kid had seen several people being killed, some of his

590
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 1: friends being killed in front of him. It's backbreaking work.

591
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: And I asked him, like, why do you do this

592
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: kind of work? It's horrible. He said, Look, my family

593
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: is incredibly poor. I want to go to college and

594
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: it's the only job opportunity offered so that I could

595
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: save money to go to college. I said, what is

596
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: it that you want to do when you go to college.

597
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: I want to become a dentist. Dentist. That's why dentist

598
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: because all the posters that he sees in his hometown

599
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: are for dentist offices, and he sees all the people

600
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: with big white smile smiles, and he said, I want

601
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: to make people smile like that.

602
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

603
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: So I hear these stories again and again. You know,

604
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: I'm just going to give you a shorter example tweety

605
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: as camra reinterviewed in Jamaica. And I asked her, and

606
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: she initially comes across as very glob She's saying, she's

607
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: telling me the story about how she stole from this

608
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: very this elderly American woman. She stole everything this woman had,

609
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: including her wedding ring, basically by promising that she was

610
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: going to gain she got the lottery ticket and if

611
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: she paid for this fee and this fee, she was

612
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: gonna get millions of dollars. This elderly lady, a very

613
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: gullible lady that ended up giving her all her money,

614
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: including the wedding ring. And then I asked her, but hey, tweety,

615
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel bad about this? I mean,

616
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: why did you even start scamming people in the first place? Said, Look,

617
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: I work in a resort, luxury resort in Montego Bay.

618
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: I make less money in you know, a week than

619
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: the family spends in a day here at the resort,

620
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: or a year then the family spends in a day

621
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: here at the resort. My grandfather, who I adore, got sick.

622
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: He needed two thousand dollars surgery. No one in my

623
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: family could afford it. I could not afford it. He

624
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: ended up dying for two thousand dollars. So I grew

625
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: up with the idea everyone in my family says God,

626
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: God will provide. Well God, she literally said, God ain't

627
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: done shit for me. God ain't provided, you know, So

628
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to be the one who has to provide

629
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: for my family. And that's the day she decided to

630
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: start scamming people.

631
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: You've worked a lot beside scammers. I don't even want

632
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: to say exposing, but like telling their story or how

633
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: they do it, or yeah, they're kind of bad guys.

634
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: Some of them are come across as very heartless.

635
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: Right do you think they can be heartless because they

636
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: don't actually know, they don't see the person in their eyeballs,

637
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: because you know the.

638
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: Hate you get online. I'm sure you get it.

639
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, I trust them again. I think you

640
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: must have seen you must have seen the comments section

641
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: of my post.

642
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: Yes, no one would be able to say that face

643
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: to face, right looking in your eyes and saying this

644
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: stuff that people tell me, you know, go back to

645
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: your country, bitch, and what are you doing here? And

646
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: you know all tho.

647
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: Stuff And they said that to me. What do they

648
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: say to you?

649
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: What do they say? What's the worst thing? Oh?

650
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 2: It's all die die stuff.

651
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: Oh wow, why what have you done?

652
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 4: This?

653
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: Them off so much?

654
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 2: Just be charming. I think they just it's like you're

655
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: talking about, they just see somebody so charming and they're like,

656
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: I work all day and I'm not that charming and

657
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: he has I think it's just a a And I

658
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: will tell artists this when they're new, not to divert

659
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: from what you're saying, but when you start off, you're

660
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 2: standing on the ground. The only people that can see

661
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 2: you are the people that are standing right by you,

662
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: because the elevation is the same. But as your platform

663
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: goes up, well, now you're exposed to more people because

664
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: you're up high feet now and more people can see you.

665
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: And just the raw numbers, there's going to be a couple,

666
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 2: just generally, a couple crazies in that as you go

667
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: up more, just do the numbers game. There's going to

668
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 2: be seven instead of two. You're up high, there's going

669
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: to be a thousand and so it's just a numbers game.

670
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: And my platform has kind of done this a bit.

671
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: But the more successful I've been, the crazier and the

672
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 2: more threatening the messages get, not about anything specifically, but

673
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: just existing within a platform where you have opinions. Scammers,

674
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: there's a lot of Since they're not seeing the person,

675
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: it's easier to take from them, right.

676
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and I think many the idea is that

677
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: everyone who lives in America is rich, so even if

678
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: they take away a few thousand dollars from them, they

679
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: won't notice. So I'm doing this project. I can't talk

680
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: a lot about it, but I'm doing this project with

681
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: Nageo where it's about scamming. It's a different different from traffic.

682
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: And I was on the phone the other day with

683
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: one of those Indian call centers right where they're trying

684
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: to convince me that they're stealing my Somebody is stealing

685
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: my information online, so I have to download this app

686
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: that will save me. And when I'm downloading the app,

687
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: they basically get access to my phone and to my

688
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: accounts and everything. Anyway, I started saying, look, I know

689
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: you're a scammer. I'm going to tell who I am.

690
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: My name is Mariana Vanzeler. You can google me. He did,

691
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: and you realize I was a journalist, and he was like, oh,

692
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 1: I love National Graphic. He also said I was very beautiful,

693
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: which I was very have it. He's very sweet, and

694
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: he was very and he's very charming, and we started talking.

695
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: I said, okay, tell me what you Why do you

696
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: do what you do? And then eventually he said, look,

697
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: I am only stealing from very rich people. How do

698
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: you know they're rich? Because I have access to their

699
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: bank account. I can see it. And so what makes

700
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 1: a person rich one thousand dollars in their bank account?

701
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: Tells me that they're rich one thousand dollars. So there's

702
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: just a complete They don't realize that. Obviously, there's a

703
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: huge gap between what's happening in India and the United States,

704
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: and for them, they don't really see a problem with it.

705
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: Have you ever been scammed? I don't believe so, man,

706
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: Now I got yeah a couple of times. I'm really

707
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 2: good about it, I say, and I think and I

708
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: but it comes all the time from all directions, right,

709
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: and they get better and better, and so like, I

710
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: am so vigilant about not being scammed. And I think

711
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: that's what got me. Because my friends save me an email.

712
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: I don't open it. I call them. Do you send

713
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: me an email? Yep? Okay, I want to get into it.

714
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: So I'm like into it right, yes. And so once

715
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 2: there was this beef jerky that I liked and I

716
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: bought it from an Instagram ad and it came through

717
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 2: and it was it was perfect. Love is the finest

718
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: beat jerky I've ever had, and I wanted more, but

719
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: I could the ad didn't pop back up, So I

720
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 2: googled the beef jerky, went to the beef jerky site

721
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: and it's like you can buy, but you have to

722
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: buy like five bags at once. It's high quality stuff.

723
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: I like that cocaine down there in Mexico. And so

724
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: I ordered five bags and you know, you put your name,

725
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,959
Speaker 2: your dress, blah blah. And so beef jerky never came,

726
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: and so I get a call because it want order

727
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: on my Instagram kind of like two days I get

728
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: a call like two or three days later. I didn't

729
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: have any beat jerky and that was already kind of weird.

730
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: And I get a call and it's like, hey, this

731
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: is Bobby, and I'm like yeah, So they knew my note,

732
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: they have my phone number, and they knew my name,

733
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 2: and they knew my address and they were like, hey,

734
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 2: this is your bane. Somebody has tried to spend a

735
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 2: bunch of money on this credit card, last number. Da

736
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 2: dad had everything, and I'm going and all that's right,

737
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: and they're like, we want to get on FaceTime or

738
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: Zoom or whatever one of the video and we needed

739
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: to look in your bank account and that doesn't happen.

740
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: But I'd already gotten to this point with him, and

741
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: I said, no, that's not right, like it's all churning

742
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: in my head at once, and they're like, no, this

743
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: is your bank, this is your bank account, your credit

744
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 2: card number. We wouldn't know all that if we weren't

745
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: your bank. So if you'll get on and share with us,

746
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I don't think so, SA does it

747
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: feel comfortable, I'll call you back and hang up. Turns

748
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: out they had built a beef jerky site that looked

749
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: exactly like the original beef jerky site, and so I

750
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: went to it. I googled it. They had paid to

751
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: move it up. I went to that site. When I

752
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: put in all the information, it wasn't a real site.

753
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: They took all the information and they called me with

754
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 2: all my information. So I believe it is a great

755
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: over beef jerky. Over beef jerky.

756
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: That is crazy. That is crazy.

757
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: My love of beef almost got me, So that is crazy.

758
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: I almost got got on that one.

759
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's they're getting better and better. So the

760
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: project that I'm doing with that GEO basically is that

761
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: I'm saying yes, sir, every single scam that comes my way.

762
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: And so I've been seeing all these kind of scams,

763
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: and while doing this project, this actually happened where I

764
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: have a camera with me and I'm filming myself all

765
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: the time, and I'm answering phone calls, but immediately I

766
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: kind of know which ones are scams and what's not,

767
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,440
Speaker 1: and one of them almost got me. It was it

768
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: was a call from I have a bank account. I

769
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: have a Chase bank account, and it was a call

770
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: from my Chase bank from my my what do you

771
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: call the the location the Chase has Yes, So it

772
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: was a woman American accent. A lot of them sometimes don't,

773
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: but in this case, it was an American accent, and

774
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: she was so convincing, and she started saying that there

775
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: was some strange activity and they needed to figure out.

776
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: So she was asking for all this information for me,

777
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: and then I called my husband, but I'm recording the

778
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 1: whole time on video. I kept it cook grunt rolling

779
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: and he has no idea what's happening either, And it

780
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: almost got me. But then when I started asking more questions,

781
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: they hung up the phone. And then I called Chase

782
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: and they said, no, it wasn't us. They a lot

783
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: of times they use they use they're able to tap

784
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: into our phone numbers and call and it sells on

785
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: the screen Chase, which is crazy? Is it crazy?

786
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 2: I have a friend who's done that show, except it's

787
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: not recorded, and it's not on purpose. She's just been

788
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 2: scammed every single time by every single scams she's lived

789
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 2: the say a show just accidentally and she has no

790
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 2: no like the records of urban scams. She's funded like

791
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: for scamming organizations. Oh yeah, she gets scammed all the time.

792
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: Why the most sable?

793
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, so much, and just believes everything. Sweet, she's very nice. Yeah,

794
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 2: but it just clicks everything. There's a link, click it. That's

795
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: our motto. If there's a link, I'm gonna click it. Yeah.

796
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 2: The scammers are are so prevalent in our lives now,

797
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: it just feels like they're coming in all directions, all

798
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 2: the time.

799
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: What I say is that every part of an American

800
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: American life is now cammabal right. You want to go

801
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: on a date, you want to open a bank account,

802
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 1: you want to enroll for college, you want.

803
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: AI to bye bye beef, jerky trauma, trauma. I was

804
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: watching your Annadelvi interview and I love uncomfortableness.

805
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: Oh I hate uncomfortableness.

806
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: Like I thrive in it. And some of my stand

807
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: up is so uncomfortable that it's not funny to anybody

808
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: else except me, so I enjoy it. That was uncomfortable,

809
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 2: so freaking uncomfort Why would she agree to do the interview?

810
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: First of all, I don't think she researched it. She

811
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: didn't know. I don't know what she thought. Quite frankly,

812
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, she sat down. I thought, this is

813
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: an interview.

814
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: With explain who Anadelvi is.

815
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: Swynadelvey also known as Anna Sorkin. That's her family name.

816
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: She changed her name to Annadelvi early on. She was

817
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: a fake hairess. There was a show on Netflix about

818
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 1: her called Inventing Anna. She moved to the United States

819
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: from She's originally from Russia. Her family moved to Germany,

820
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: then she moved to and eventually ended up in New York,

821
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: where she basically fooled people into believing that she was

822
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 1: a billionaire from Germany, a hairss of this massive fortune.

823
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: But she went as far as going into banks and

824
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: meeting with bankers who gave her a shit ton of

825
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: money believing her story. And she was staying at these

826
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: five star really how the Howard Hotel and New York

827
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: very expensive hotel for weeks and weeks on an end

828
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: without paying a single dollar because they believe she had

829
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: this massive fortune. And you don't ask clients for money

830
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: upfront if they're wealthy and powerful. And she would just

831
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: con people left and right. And so my show is

832
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: about black markets and where I get a chance to

833
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: talk to smuggers and traffickers and con artists and fraudsters

834
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: and whatnot. And so I thought she'd at least research

835
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: that and knew that what I was interested in knowing

836
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: about was her history, right, But she sat down. She

837
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about her past. But even when

838
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: I tried to, okay, so let's talk about your present.

839
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: What are you up to now, It's like I don't

840
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: want to jinx it. So at one point in the interview,

841
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,959
Speaker 1: I tried every single way to get something out more

842
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: than I don't know out of her I asked her, so, okay,

843
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: so why did you come on the podcast? And she said,

844
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. You're not paying me was like, exactly

845
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: or not? So why are you here? I really could

846
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:09,359
Speaker 1: not figure it out.

847
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 2: But I don't favorite. Why do you think that she came?

848
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: I I okay. She told me it was because a

849
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: friend my producer has they have has a friend in

850
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: common with her and had been had contacted the friend

851
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: and said, hey, would Anna Delva ever come on this

852
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: new podcast? And apparently after a few asks you said yes.

853
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 1: But she hadn't researched the podcast. But even if she had,

854
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: I don't understand what kind of podcasts she would have

855
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 1: been comfortable talking, because I just don't think she feels

856
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: comfortable talking full stop.

857
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: Well, and that's the weird thing. I was on Dancing

858
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: with the Stars and she did that show and it

859
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: was weird and there was you guys are on the line? No, no, no,

860
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: But I have a lot of friends and still work

861
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: there on a BBC. What do people say? It's difficult

862
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: obviously and didn't want to do it, but then why

863
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 2: do it?

864
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

865
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: Like that was some of my friends who work in

866
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 2: what it's called the organization of the ABC Disney BBC

867
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: wants exactly who they are. They were like, we didn't

868
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: understand why she did it if she didn't want to

869
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: do it, because obviously she didn't want to do it

870
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: by her actions, she was so miserable all the time.

871
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot of people out there that

872
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: are a team Anna, that are obsessed with her and

873
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: do and follow everything they do. So there's all these

874
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: comments on my podcast on that episode saying how and

875
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: they see it as Anna doesn't owe anything to anyone, Right,

876
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 1: Anna is just Anna and this is who she are.

877
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: Is an act? But actually not sure if that's the case.

878
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: I don't think it is an act. I think that

879
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: she's just difficult. Maybe. I think she's very, very insecure.

880
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't think even though she's actually quite smart and funny,

881
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: but I think she doesn't think she has much to

882
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: add or she's insecure about, so she doesn't end up

883
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: saying much. I think, maybe do you.

884
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: Ever just go this is a nice start, like like

885
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: the office or Smurfs or something, just to cleanse the palette,

886
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: because it's just so intense all the time. It feels

887
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: like your job is, and maybe to you it's baseline.

888
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: I think it's baseline. Yeah, I'm not a bachelor watcher

889
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: of those shows. It's never been my cup of tea.

890
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: I love documentaries. I love sort of darker subjects. It's

891
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: what I like. But I drink a lot of wine.

892
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 4: The Bobby Cast will be right back. This is the

893
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 4: Bobby Cast.

894
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 2: Did you approach it differently once you had a kid?

895
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 1: No? No again, because I don't think of it as

896
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: something that would actually risk my life. So I thinking

897
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: of it as I have to plan ahead. I have

898
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: to make sure that I'm minimizing the risk and I'll

899
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: be able to get out of the here unscathed, even

900
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: though shit happens all the time. But so it didn't

901
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: really change. What it made me is much more emotional

902
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: and being able to connect with people much more. You know,

903
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: when I talk to women, and a lot of times

904
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: it's women who are victims of sex trafficking and human

905
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: trafficking and scams. And to be able to talk to

906
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: these women, a lot of them are mothers, it's much

907
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: easier for me to connect and understand their pain and

908
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 1: their grief. And so I've become much more emotional. Even

909
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: talking about this makes me emotional. But yeah, it's women

910
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: usually they also have been the biggest inspiration for me.

911
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: There is nothing stronger in the world than a mother

912
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: fighting for their childs, right, And that's what I found

913
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: again and.

914
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 2: Again, we were talking before you came in about your podcast,

915
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: The Hidden Third, and I was referencing the episode with

916
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: one of the Jeffrey Epstein victims. And that's something that

917
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 2: I've been outwardly so surprised that so many heads haven't

918
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: been rolled chopped off. Can't but like, if we're not

919
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: protecting kids, like what are we even doing? Right? So

920
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 2: and I get met with a you're just being political,

921
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 2: and I'm like.

922
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: There's nothing burn them all, Yes, exactly, it.

923
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: Doesn't matter to me. Burn them all. And so you

924
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: talk about getting emotional, I mean, did you get emotional

925
00:43:59,239 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: while doing.

926
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: That interviewing Lisa Phillips? Absolutely, And again a huge inspiration

927
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: for me, just the bravery of her speaking out and

928
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: it was interesting, like she's gotten a lot of people.

929
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: Usually people were victims of abuse. It's really hard for

930
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 1: them to accept and to admit it, and there's a

931
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: lot of shame around it obviously, as you know, and

932
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: it took her years to be able and it wasn't

933
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: until the first victim came out, Virginia Giffrey, and she

934
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 1: was the first to publicly speak out about what was happening,

935
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: that she gained the courage to speak out herself. And

936
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: she was Initially she didn't say she was a victim.

937
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: She just wanted to have Virginia's back and say, I

938
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: saw this happening. I know it happened to other people.

939
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until years later that she was actually

940
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: able to say, yeah, it happened to me, and this

941
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: is exactly what happened. She's incredibly brave and she's one

942
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 1: of those people that's out there on Congress, in Congress,

943
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: in front of Congress, speaking out and talking about how

944
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: why it's important to release the files.

945
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 2: Virginia Guffray death is really really suspicious, right.

946
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: It is suspicious? Yes, And it's interesting.

947
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,439
Speaker 2: I shouldn't insert you you thinking that is that death

948
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 2: suspicious to you? Because it is to me.

949
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: It is to a lot of people. And when I

950
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: was researching this, I found yeah, there's a lot of

951
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: people that this is suspicious. And you know what's interesting too,

952
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: is like the Epstein death right, when people started talking

953
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 1: about how it was suspicious. There's no way, you know,

954
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: he was killed. He committed suicide, and anyone who would

955
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 1: approach it as if he had been killed was seen

956
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: as a conspiracy theorist. Right. And you fast forward a

957
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: few years and now I think most people think that,

958
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: in fact, it wasn't a conspiracy theory, that he was

959
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 1: probably killed.

960
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: There's just so much purposefully planted misinformation. An AI video

961
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 2: of him in the cell, the added footage where you

962
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: can go into the metadata and you can see like sloppily. Yeah,

963
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: that's the craziest part to me, because I'm sure we've

964
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: been fulled to a million times a million different ways

965
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: by our government or the powers that be, but to

966
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: do it so sloppily has been the thing that has

967
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: blown my mind the most. And just expect that we're

968
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: just going to take it and move on, yeah, or

969
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 2: distract us distracted because there's a lot of distraction happening

970
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 2: right now too, to keep us from talking about it.

971
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was interesting. I mean the reason why

972
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: I say it's not political, I mean it's extremely political,

973
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 1: but it's a political in a way that it touches everybody, right,

974
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: it was used as a tool when Trump was campaigning

975
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: against the Democrats, and now it's being used by the

976
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: Democrats against the government. But rightfully so. I think these

977
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: files need to be exposed and we need to know

978
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,439
Speaker 1: the truth. And according to Lisa, the importance of this

979
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: is not about individual names. I think what all the

980
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: victims want more than anything is to reveal how this

981
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: wasn't just an anomaly, how this was the structure that

982
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: was in place, how all these people were protecting each other.

983
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: This was a massive organization group of people that was

984
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: very very power powerful, very very rich, and we're all

985
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: taking advantage of these girls, and nobody said anything for

986
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: freaking decades. It's so scary.

987
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: Everybody should check out the Hidden Third, either audio or YouTube.

988
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: It's wonderful. It's an extension definitely of what I've known

989
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: you for anyway, and I like the long formness of it.

990
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, Me too. What I say is that

991
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: Trafficked was sort of the map, and the Hidden Third

992
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: is sort of the diary, right where I get to

993
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: hear people's stories in depth, raw difficult conversations, but we

994
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: also get to share some of my own personal stories.

995
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: It's really fun.

996
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: Thank you for sitting with you for an hour. This

997
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: has been amazing.

998
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: It's been awesome. Thank you for having you on.

999
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to a Bobby Cast production