1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and national security secrets are being leaked 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: in video game chat rooms. We have an intriguing show 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: today the Washington Post. Caroline Kitchener talks to us about 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: the horrifying reality of post role America. Then we'll talk 7 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: to Yale law professor Scott Shapiro about all of the 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: legal fuckery with the Supreme Court. But first showtimes the circuses. 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: Mark McKinnon, Welcome to Fast Politics. Mark Well, glad to 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: be on the discard. We're delighted to have you. I 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: feel like this week was I mean, I don't understand 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: what Republicans ever get sick of losing? Apparently not. They 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: just clawing their weight to the bottom. I'm not sure 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: we've reached you. You have spent your whole life, or 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: not your whole life, but some of your life working 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: in Republican politics. Did you watch what happened in Tennessee? 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: Would the two Justin's removed for several days in abject horror? 18 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: I mean, did you see how this would just completely 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: bite them? Of course? And it's funny Molly, because this 20 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: is in the category of great minds thinking alike. In 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: the middle of all that, I've said, oh, man, I'm 22 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: going to write a column about how the Republicans are 23 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: now that they've cut the car the cars running over 24 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: them between guns and Tennessee and Kentucky and abortion and Trump. 25 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: And I pitched that to our favorite friend, David's friend, 26 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: and he said, well, sorry, buddy, Molly just wrote that. So, 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's shocking to me to watch the arc 28 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: of the Republican Party since the days of compassionate Conservatism 29 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: and how it has gone from the Tea Party to 30 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: MAGA to It's something that I don't wreck ignize at all. 31 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: And to your point, ultimately, everything that's being done it's 32 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: just appealing to a smaller and smaller and smaller base 33 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: of a diminishing demographic. So whatever short term games they're getting, 34 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: which aren't a lot, it's a long term disaster for 35 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 1: the Republican So I was thinking about this because I 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: had coffee with a guy called John de la Volpi. 37 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: I think, does all the polling on millennials right? Exactly? 38 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: Does all this polling on millennials and you'll be surprised 39 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: to hear that millennials are not that interested in Donald 40 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: Trump's belief that the election was stolen from him, and 41 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: in fact, they are quite interested in climate and other 42 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: real things. And I want to talk to you because 43 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: you were involved in Republican politics around the time when 44 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: Republicans still offered voters something and I wondered, if you 45 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: were in charge now, if you had to sort of 46 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: do a post mortem on these smoking emperors that will 47 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: be the Republican Party when Trump is done with it, 48 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: what would you offer. Well, you almost have to start 49 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,839 Speaker 1: from scratch. I mean, there was a post mortem done 50 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: in twenty twelve which sort of laid out a battle 51 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: plan for Republicans to grow the party. And that means addition. 52 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: That means adding voters, not subtracting voters, and that means 53 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: appealing to the de LA vote voters, to a whole 54 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: cross section of voters who are growing not diminishing as 55 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: the MAGA voters are, which is a highly white and 56 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: old demographics. So yeah, I mean across the board you 57 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: just look at. First of all, I was drawn to 58 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: the Republican Party in George Bush because of the appeal 59 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: of the idea of compassionate conservatism. There's nothing compassionate left, 60 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: So I mean much less is driving away Republicans like me, 61 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: much less not attracting independence or even some conservative Democrats 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: like George W. Bush did or others. So it's just 63 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: in a death spot. And you know, the worst thing 64 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: that can happen to the Republican Party is Donald Trump. 65 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: And I mean think about this. He's first of all, 66 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: twice impeached, and he lost the twenty twenty election, not 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: just the presidency. He lost the presidency, he lost the House, 68 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: he lost the Senate. That hasn't happened in a hundred years. 69 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland was the last person to manage that. And 70 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: now he's once indicted. But it's very possible that by 71 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: this time next year, I'd say even probable, that he'll 72 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 1: be running as a four time indicted, twice impeached and 73 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: once lost the House, the Senate, and the presidency. That's 74 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: a heck of a load to try and carry across 75 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: the finish line. And it's a dream scenario for Democrats 76 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: because I like Biden and I think he was the 77 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: right guy for the right moment. I don't like him 78 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: running for reelection, but Donald Trump may be the only 79 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: guy that Biden could be. So I just want to 80 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: ask you, I mean again, not to get into the 81 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: nuances of the campaigns yet, and especially not on the 82 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: Democratic side, because while Trump is running, I agree, well, 83 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: Trump is running. Well, the only game in town is Trump, 84 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: I wondered. I had read something about this idea that 85 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: the more attention Trump gets, the worse he does in 86 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: this sort of general population, and I think that's how 87 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: the Biden administration is playing it too. Sure. I mean, 88 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: it's the old maxim that we used to say, don't 89 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: catch a falling knife. Let it fall, let him catch it. 90 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: It's his knife. And yes, there's no appeal to a 91 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: guy who's being indicted to that's not going to expand 92 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: his voters. I mean, he was short eleven million, right 93 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: according to everybody but him, And if you're short eleven 94 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: million in twenty twenty, you got to have eleven million 95 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: plus in twenty twenty four. And all that's happening right 96 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: now is not going to appeal to one single voter 97 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: of those eleven million, I assure here, But here's my question. 98 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: Why can't Republicans explain to us the machinations here? Like 99 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: why is no one. I mean, is it just because 100 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: they didn't get a blowout in these last elections that 101 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: they've decided to continue down this road of Trump is 102 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: um or do you think it's because the base really 103 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: controls a party or do you think it's some third 104 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: option the base controls the party. I mean, thirty percent 105 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: is not a majority, but it's a lot of voters, 106 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: and that's enough voters to control the primaries. And every 107 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: time that somebody stands up and takes a shot at 108 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: Donald Trump, they face the wrath of the MAGA faithful. 109 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: And that's, like I said, twenty five to thirty percent 110 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: of that Republican base and that's enough. That's enough to 111 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: cause a lot of pain. And that's why you see 112 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: everybody just laying down. And they're damned if they do 113 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: and damned if they don't. But I've said for a 114 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: long time that the only option for a resilient or 115 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: any future at all in terms of winning the presidency 116 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: and majorities in this country where Republicans is to take 117 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: Trump off the windshield and put them in the rear 118 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: view of mirror. And until then they're going to get 119 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: that thirty percent of the MAGA voters or control those primaries. 120 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: And as I've watched this, what happens is it's just 121 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: sort of, for lack of a better chart, where maybe 122 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: it is the right term, it's just dumbing down everything completely, 123 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: so that in these primaries increasingly you have these sort 124 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: of purity tests. You have to say the election was stolen, 125 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: you have to agree with all this Trump stuff, which 126 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: just takes you out of consideration for general election voters. 127 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: And it's just getting worse and worse. But the appeal 128 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: is not going up, it's going down. And so if 129 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: you're somebody running in a Republican primary, I mean, Arizona 130 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: is a good example. This sheriff now is going to 131 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: run in the Republican where for the Senate, and King's 132 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: going to out carry Lake. Carry Lake. And by the way, 133 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: Carry Lake is my favorite example because for anybody who 134 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: watched that election last cycle, she had all the candidate 135 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: skills that you would want as someone who does campaigns 136 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: or works with candidates. She's just a great communicator, fast, smart, 137 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: and should have won that election going away. And yet 138 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: she goes into a room full of potential voters Republicans, 139 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: and she says something along the lines of who here 140 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: supported John McCain, and a bunch of people raise their hands. 141 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: She said, get out, and it's like, are you kidding me? 142 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: You're telling John McCain voters to go to hell? Well 143 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: guess what they're going to tell you to go to hell? 144 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: And you are not going to be in the United 145 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: States Senate. So that's the klin of thing. And so 146 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: she's going to have to out sheriff the sheriff now 147 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: and it just keeps spiraling downward and down. But that's 148 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: what DeSantis is trying to do with Trump right now. Yeah, 149 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: he is, and he was supposed to be the Golden Boy, 150 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: and he hasn't had a lot of luck the last 151 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: month or so. And it's a good example of what 152 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: happens when you take him on. I mean, he did 153 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: so lightly, man. I think Chris Prittie is the only 154 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: guy who's really taken a two by four to him. 155 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: But Christie's not even in the ratio. I mean, I 156 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: just am curious, though. Do you think that running to 157 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: the right of Donald Trump on policy would be hard 158 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: pressed to even name a Trump policy makes any sense. No, 159 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 1: you're not going to get to the right of Trump. 160 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: That's just not going to work. And I think the 161 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: only way to do it is just do what Christie's 162 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: doing and just go ahead and take the two by 163 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: four to Trump with the expectation, which I think is 164 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: a realistic one and a practical one and a probable 165 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: one that one indictment rough to the brutal three wow 166 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: four unsurvival. At some point that's just going to be 167 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: too much and it's going to break his back at 168 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: some point. It's like if you ever read the book 169 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: or some of the movie The Man Who Would Be King. 170 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: But I mean the sort of whole notion of it 171 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 1: is as soon as they see it bleed, you're screwed. 172 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: And as soon as people, even the magabase see that 173 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: Donald Trump is mortal and he bleeds, they could evaporate overnight. 174 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: So this is a very interesting thing that I have 175 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: never heard anyone say. And so I want you to 176 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: say more about this. Well, I just don't think that 177 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: you're gonna outflank Trump on the right. That's just not 178 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: going to work, right, And so listen, everybody's afraid of 179 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: making the maga faithful mad Well. The thing that people 180 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: respond to, I think a Trump responds to is strength, right, 181 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: So go up and just get a rock and be 182 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: David and thruff it and you're gonna get a lot 183 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: of heat immediately from the base. But over time you'll 184 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: be seen as the guy who was willing to take 185 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: on the king, and as I said, at a certain point, 186 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: over time. And it's going to take time. But when 187 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: you get sounded with the second and the third and 188 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: the fourth indictment and you're the guy that's been slugging 189 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: him and suddenly he buckles, you're going to be the 190 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 1: guy standing in the ring. So here's my question for 191 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: you with this. Do you think there's a moment where 192 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: the Magabasse says this is enough. I just have so 193 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: much trouble imagining that one day they're like because I mean, 194 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: if you think about it, what happened last Tuesday in 195 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: New York was they decided that Alvin Brad was a racist, 196 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: which right, of course is the thing they love to say, 197 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: and that Trump was a victim, and then they gave 198 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: him a lot of money. Yep, yep, that's the playbook. 199 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: But I think that what they can't and won't accept 200 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: again over time is the notion that Donald Trump would 201 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: be a loser. I mean, there's nothing more contrary to 202 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: his brand than being a loser. And if again, it's 203 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 1: hard to project that far out, but when you think 204 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: of a guy running with three or four indictments over 205 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: his head at a certain point, I mean, the polling 206 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: is already not good for Trump and it's just going 207 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: to get worse. It's not going to take all of 208 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: them to leave. But if enough of them look around 209 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: and say, well, Jesus, I love this guy Trump, but 210 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:44,599 Speaker 1: he's not going to beat Joe Biden. We got to 211 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: get somebody else, Gotta get another horse. And who do 212 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: they go to? Then? Well, I mean I would prefer 213 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: somebody like Glenn Yuncin. I think young he's the kind 214 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: of candidate. He's got a kind of a Reagan sunny, 215 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: optimistic approach in sensibility. That's the kind of guy I'd 216 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: like to see running. I mean, Tim Scott, I think 217 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: is in a lane that I like. And Nicky Haley 218 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: to a degree also, I think once you get to 219 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: Nicky Haley, you really sound exhausted. I'm trying not to 220 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: be too mean here because I know I feel like 221 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: the Republican Party dug itself into this ditch. But I 222 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: mean they are in this irretractable death ray. They are, 223 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: but it's again the prospect of losing maybe the tonic 224 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: and nothing happens in politics still does, right, And Tim 225 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: Scott is another guy who had disagree with his policies, 226 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: but he's a very sunny guy. It is hard to dislike. 227 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: And I think he's got generally the right approach in 228 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: terms of tone anyway, which is, you know, like fascism. 229 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: But I don't know how you go as a Republican 230 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: Party from the guy who called all Mexicans a rapist 231 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: to the eleventh black Senator. Yeah, it's a stretch for sure. 232 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: So my other question is, like, the thing that in 233 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: some ways scares me the most about where this Republican 234 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: Party is right now is that they seem to have 235 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: embraced this urbanism, right this sort of victor orban democracy 236 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: is a failed experiment. Let's go for this sort of 237 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: populous fascist thing, and that a lot of the sort 238 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: of younger thought leaders of the party, they have a 239 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: real dark vision for the country. And I mean, how 240 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: worried does that make you? Well? Again, I genuineflected at 241 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: the altar John mccainon especially on foreign policy. So I mean, 242 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: it's just I'm stunned by it. I can't believe it. 243 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: And it's it is dystopic too. I mean it's anti 244 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: democratic because I antink American, and that's what strikes me 245 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: as so profound about it all. It's just like, wait 246 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: a minute, these are the guys waiting in the flag 247 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: and they're over there supporting autocrats in Bolivia and Hungry 248 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: and around the world, and this is their new model 249 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: and they like to get it in debates now about saying, 250 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, the United States is not even democratic. No, 251 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: I mean, we've crossed a scary rubicon. This is why 252 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to like a sort of question I wanted 253 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: to drill down on. And I've asked you this before socially, 254 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: but like say you were terrified of where this Republican 255 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: Party was headed, and you wanted to I mean, how 256 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: would if there were people who were still in charge 257 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: of the Republican Party, which it's clearly just Trump driving 258 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: the show at this point, what would they do How 259 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: would they be able to push back against these autocratic urges? Well? 260 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: I think that they would, and I think there's conversation 261 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: certainly going on. I mean, people with any sort of 262 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: common sense and humanity left in the Republican Party realized 263 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: that Trump is unacceptable on any level and that there 264 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: has to be an alternative. And that's when you sort 265 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: of had some romp movement among donors whoever to start 266 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: lining up behind somebody the real alternative approach, whether it's 267 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: Juncan or Tim Scott or whoever it might be. They 268 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: just say listen. I mean, the problem is that it's 269 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: just party politics are so disintegrated. Now there's nobody in 270 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: charge of the Republican Party. There's nobody in charge of 271 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: the Democratic part they're more in charge because they have 272 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: the presidency, but it's not like there's some committee like 273 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: there used to be in the fifties or something. We 274 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: can kind of control this and say, hey, well the whistle. 275 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: This guy's a big problem. But I do think he 276 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: saw a lot of people lining up for the Santis 277 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: and I don't count to Santas out and by any 278 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: need one, I think he's had a rocky few weeks, 279 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: but he didn't win Florida by double digits by being 280 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: an idiot, at least strategically, so I think there's a 281 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: good chance that he'll bounce back as well, so interesting, Mark. 282 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: I hope you will come back. We'll kick it hard, 283 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: carry on regardless, keep the faith. Caroline Kitchener is a 284 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: national political reporter covering abortion at the Washington Post. Welcome 285 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: too Fast Politics, Caroline, Thank you so much for alriy. 286 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: So you have a really interesting beat. Will you talk 287 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: a little bit about what you cover? Where to start? 288 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. Even just today, there's like three different 289 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: big stories gone on. So I cover abortion, which just 290 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: means I get to focus on this issue fully. The 291 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: stories that I most like to write are the ones 292 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: that focus on how these bands and various restrictions impact 293 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: the lives of people. So I spend a lot of 294 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: time in states where abortion is restricted trying to talk 295 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: to people who are trying to get abortions or just 296 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: have really direct experience with how these laws are planning out. 297 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: So one of the pieces you most recently wrote is 298 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: pretty fucking heartbreaking. I can say that because we're not 299 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: on cable news. It is this story of Annia Cook 300 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: in Myanmar, Florida. Will you tell us a little bit 301 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: about this story, because these stories, again are like the 302 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: unintended consequences of these abortion bands, or least we thought 303 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: they were the unintended consequence of this. Yeah, the story, 304 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: it was absolutely heartbreaking. So it's actually the story of 305 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: two women, Anya Guok and her friend Shanna Smith Cunningham, 306 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: very close friends. They were going through their pregnancies together 307 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: three weeks apart, and Anya first her water breaks at 308 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: sixteen weeks, which is long before a fetus is viable, right, 309 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: seven weeks before viability even the chance exactly. So immediately 310 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: realizes that this baby is not going to make it. 311 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: And I should say, this is the baby that she 312 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: definitely wants. I mean, this is somebody who's had a 313 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: lot of miscarriages, who just wants to be a mom 314 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: more than anything in the world. These are both women 315 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: in their thirties, yes, in their thirties, all black women 316 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: in the Fort Motordale area, And so Anya rushes to 317 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: the hospital with her husband and the doctor explains that 318 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: she experiencing a condition called p prawn that's a pre 319 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: viable pre term rupture of the membranes mouthable. Basically, it 320 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: means that your water breaks a long time before the 321 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: fetis is viable. But he says that she has to 322 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: go home. He can't help her because Florida has a 323 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: fifteen week abortion law in place, so typically in a 324 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: situation like this, a doctor would offer to induce or 325 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: perform an abortion on the pregnancy, but because of the law, 326 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: they can't. They can make this situation much less horrible 327 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: by removing the fetis, right, and that is often what 328 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: they do because these situations come with a high risk 329 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: of infection, a high risk of hemorrhage, so the standard 330 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: of care, according to the American College of Oppetitions and Gynecologists, 331 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: the standard of care is to offer that induction or abortion. 332 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: But the doctor explains that he can't do that, and 333 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: Anya is devastate's and she's terrified. Right, she's sent home 334 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: to possibly get an infection or bleed to death. Right. 335 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: They give her some antibiotics and the nurse offers to 336 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: pray for her. Oh, very helpful, and she goes home. Jesus, 337 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: how does an end for these women? While Anya hasn't 338 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: just unthinkably traumatizing experience. The next morning, she tries to 339 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: go back her life as normal. She goes to get 340 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: her hair done, and she delivers the fetus in the 341 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: bathroom of the hair salon, and she starts severely hemorrhaging, 342 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: and she's rushed to the hospital and over the course 343 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: of the day, she loses half of the blood in 344 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: her body and she almost dies. But I think one 345 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: thing that really stuck out to me about the story 346 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: is that it's it's not just one woman that this 347 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: happened too. It happened to these two friends within a day. 348 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: We One day later, her friend Shane, her water also 349 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: breaks at nineteen weeks, and she, also, in the state 350 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: of Florida, cannot get the care that she needs. She 351 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: can't get an induction, and she can't get a d NC. 352 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: But what's different about Shane's situation is that because she 353 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: knows what happened to her friend, she keeps going back 354 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: to the hospital. She goes back and back and back. 355 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: She's like, I can't deliver at home. I can't have 356 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: this happen to me. And so finally, on her fourth 357 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: trip to the hospital, she is dilated enough that they 358 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: keep her and she's able to deliver and she doesn't 359 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: have any terrible right but she still has the trauma 360 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: for sure, russure of delivering a dead baby or a 361 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: dead fetus. This story is so incredibly common, it's like 362 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: almost I feel like it's shockingly common. I want to know, 363 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: aren't these anti choice Republicans a little bit? I mean, 364 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: don't they give a shit at all about these women? 365 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: I mean, these are their wives, their children. And I 366 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: interviewed the sponsor of the fifteen week abortion band that's 367 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: in effect right now in Florida for the story, and 368 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: I told her the story and I asked her what 369 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: she made of it and how kind of what the 370 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: law is supposed to do in these circumstances, because there 371 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 1: is a medical exception, but it's very narrow. It's for 372 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: save the life of the mother. And in these situations 373 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: when you present with your water breaking, it's not like 374 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: you are like, there's no choices. Yeah, but the medical 375 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: exception doesn't like it's not clear that that medical exception 376 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: kicks in. But she is saying when I interviewed this woman, 377 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: she's saying, oh, it should count, that situation should count. 378 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: But she actually accused the doctors of sort of playing 379 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: politics with people's lives, which is obviously a very serious accusation. 380 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: And I spoke with many doctors in Florida for the 381 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: story who said, we fear that we will be fined 382 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: or go to jail if we do this. So if 383 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: that is the reality, if the sponsor really is saying 384 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: that they should be allowed, that they need to change 385 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: the law and they need to be explicit about the 386 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: circumstances and which this is allowed. I mean, that is 387 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: so striking to me. I feel like we I mean, 388 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: that is the thing that's so shocking to me, that 389 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: we are in a situation where there are all these 390 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: unintended consequences. But again, this is what happened in the 391 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. I mean, there was the doctors who drove 392 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: the road decision more than I mean, there was a 393 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: sense in which this situation was untenable for the medical profession. Ok. Yeah, 394 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: I mean the doctors. I spoke with over a dozen 395 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: doctors for this story, and they all were just like 396 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: they're devastated because they want to provide this care for 397 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: their patients, right like they this is their job. Yeah, 398 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: they desperately want to be able to take care of 399 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: people like aren't here in Cheney, and so when they can't, 400 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: when they have to say I'm sorry you had to 401 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: go home or just send you to another state, It's 402 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: like it is such a difficult thing to grapple with 403 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: as a doctor. And and I have had people and 404 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: I was reporting this story, I had people say to me, 405 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: why don't they just do it? And that's not fair 406 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: either because these are people, I mean, they go to jail, yeah, 407 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: and so that's not fair to put that on them. 408 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: It's also the hospitals too, right, the hospitals are another 409 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: liar of this, right, So talk to me about the hospitals, 410 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: because that's something that's really interesting is we're seeing the 411 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: hospitals refusing to treat right, right. But I mean the 412 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: hospitals I think are also kind of caught in a 413 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: confusing movind Like what we found in public records request 414 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,880 Speaker 1: is that the language of the hospital policy pretty much 415 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: directly reflects the language of the law, which is confusing. 416 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: Like the medical exception, it's really not clear like what 417 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: is covered and what is not covered. So what we 418 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: found is that they're sort of putting it on the 419 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: doctors to decide and kind of take it into their 420 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: own hands because the hospitals are also afraid of being 421 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: liable for the stuff. So's to So let me ask 422 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: you about what you're seeing at the state level now 423 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: with abortion bills, because we have Florida. Florida's the big one, 424 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: So talk to me about Florida. Florida has been the 425 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: place that has not been as insane about abortion, but 426 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: that's about to change. Yeah. I mean, currently, they allow 427 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: abortions to kick fifteen weeks of pregnancy, which does allow 428 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: the vast majority of abortions to continue. But either today 429 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: or tomorrow, the Republican legislature will pass a six week 430 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: abortion ban. And it is impossible to overstate the impact 431 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,479 Speaker 1: that that's going to have across the entire country. Because 432 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: Florida performs more abortions than almost any other state in 433 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: the country. It's huge, huge state, and the ban abortion 434 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: at six weeks, which is before most people know they're pregnant, 435 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 1: than people are going to be pushed out of that 436 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: huge state. And the places where they would go North Carolina, 437 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: South Carolina, Illinois. They're already so overwhelmed with everybody else 438 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: from the southeast that's been going there, and a lot 439 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: of people from the southeast other states have also been 440 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: going to Florida. So it's just the ripple of us 441 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: of that band are going to be unbelievable. Yeah, no, 442 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just incredible so talk to me about 443 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: how that goes down. Now that's a state bill, it's 444 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,719 Speaker 1: going to go to the governor. I mean, do you 445 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: think link this race to create more and more restrictive 446 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: abortion bands? What is driving it? Think the base? I 447 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: do have to say it once somewhat surprising to me 448 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: that Florida went thus far. I thought we just have 449 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: seen again and again and again that voters really care 450 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: about protecting abortion rights. We saw it like just last 451 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: week or the week before in Wisconsin. It's so clear, 452 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: and I really thought that that would be on the 453 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: mines of legislators in a place like Florida, but it 454 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be. So. I do think it's a 455 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: matter of the base, probably for desantists, right like he 456 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: wants to run for present, needs to win a primary. 457 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: But it's I think the big test is there to 458 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: be twenty twenty four. So abortion has done really really 459 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: well on these ballot initiatives, and I was hoping that 460 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about the ballot initiatives 461 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: you've seen and how they've performed and what you can 462 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: extrapolate from that. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest 463 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: one for me on election night the biggest surprise to me. 464 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: It was Kentucky. Yeah, Kentucky. Just voters in Kentucky, conservative 465 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: Kentucky came out to support abortion rights, and I think 466 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,479 Speaker 1: that that really shocked a lot of people. And together 467 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: with Michigan too, I mean, Michigan was able to protect 468 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: abortion rights, especially protect them, but Kentucky basically was sort 469 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: of the opposite thing. That people were coming out to say. 470 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: There was an amendment to say that there were no 471 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: explicit protections for abortion in the state constitution, and people 472 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: were coming out to say, no, we don't want that, 473 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: we don't want that amendment. So now what you see 474 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: are just like abortion rights advocates are just scrambling to 475 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: do this and in many places as possible. They want 476 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: to have these valid initiatives in as many places I 477 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: can effectively do them, and I do think it's tough 478 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: because you can't do them everywhere successfully. I think at 479 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: the same time, because they're sponsor. So right now we're 480 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: seeing some of that play out. By the kind of 481 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: thick of a summer, we'll know which states are gonna 482 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: do this for real. Next came around. So one of 483 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: the things I want to ask you is abortion has 484 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: this right has been taken away from women less than 485 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: a year. Now we're trying to pro choice lawmakers are 486 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to protect women. I want 487 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: to ask you, like, why has the Congress been able 488 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: to codify same sex marriage but had such tough time 489 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: with row? The great question. I mean, some people have 490 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: really questioned why was this not done in the Obama 491 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: era when dem felt stronger control. I mean, now there's 492 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: just not the votes for it, right, But I think 493 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: that for so long we really assumed our gas was 494 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 1: never going to happen, Like even after the Leek, like 495 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: people were saying that this was never going to happen. 496 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: And I think that it was that really ran so 497 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: deep that it was hard to get energy. Kind so denial, 498 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: I think, so yeah, yeah, I mean that's what I 499 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: think too. But it's just so shocking to me. I mean, 500 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: I don't know where we go from here. I mean, 501 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: I do think that twenty twenty four is going to 502 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: be massive for abortion. I mean, if a Republican gets 503 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: in the lighthouse an anti abortion Republican, which I think 504 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: that all of them so far have come out backing 505 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: some kind of national restriction. What we have seen is 506 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: really the power that the FDA has, I mean some 507 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: of the agency, the administration actually has an incredible amount 508 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: of power to particularly restrict the abortion pill and then 509 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: potentially helped Shepherd through a national band. So I think 510 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: that abortion rights advocates are going to be working really 511 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: hard to make it crystal clear that abortion really is 512 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: on the ballot next time around. So crazy, I mean 513 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: just and the Fifth Circuit is known to be very conservative. 514 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, known as the most conservative in the country. 515 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. I hope you'll 516 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: come baha, thank you. I would love to. Scott Shapiro 517 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: is a professor at Yale Law School. Welcome too, fast Politics, 518 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: Scott Shapiro, Oh, thank you so much, Shamali, great to 519 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: be here. Talking to you is great because like talking 520 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: to every single one of my relatives. I'm sorry, it's like, okay, 521 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: talking to my Auntie Esther. Yeah, that's always how I 522 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: want to be seen in the world as the same 523 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: as Auntie Esther is Auntie Esther ninety no no, no, 524 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: no no. She's the best person in the world. And 525 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: it said it's a high compliment. I'm good. You know. 526 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: She pronounces everything like cancer. Oh yeah, New York accent 527 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: thing is brutal. So, Scott Shapiro, I wanted to have 528 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,959 Speaker 1: you on to talk because for any number of reasons. 529 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: But you're fancy Yale law professor, but you also are 530 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 1: involved in the Yale Cybersecurity Lab, so you have really 531 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of skills that are you're really an expert 532 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: in all the stuff I want to talk about. But first, 533 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: before we talk about anything, we have to talk about 534 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: the crazy Texas judge, the Trump appointed Texas judge who 535 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: decided a federal judge from Armarillo, Texas, who decided that 536 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: the FDA approval process isn't good when they approved something 537 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: he doesn't like. Yeah, I mean that's the way we 538 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: got into this is that you DM me after I 539 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: tweeted the originalist case against Tayland. All right, really, this 540 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: is a shocking ruling out of Texas. The law is 541 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: really really not on the Texas judge as side, and 542 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: in fact, it's hard to think of this as anything 543 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: other than just like a brute power play to try 544 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: to shut down safe and legal abortions in the United States. Yeah, 545 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: that's what I wanted to talk to you about. Is 546 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: there any legal precedent for something like this at all. 547 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: Let me just say one of the biggest problems with 548 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: the opinion and the ruling is that it runs a 549 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: foul of something that's called the standing doctrine. And the 550 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: standing doctrine says not anybody can bring a case in 551 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: front of federal court. You have to have what's called 552 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: a case or controversy. You have to be personally affected 553 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: by it. So the one thing, if women who tried 554 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: to terminate their pregnancies using medication a worship got harmed 555 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: in some way, that'd be one thing. Then you could say, yes, 556 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: they've been personally affected and so therefore they have standing. 557 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 1: But the people who brought this suit, the plaintiffs so 558 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: when it brought the suit, are physicians, and they're not 559 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: even the physicians of particular women that have taking this drug. 560 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: They're worried about fallout from taking the drug, so they 561 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: really don't have any they're not personally affected, and under 562 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: standing doctrine that has been around for decades, they would 563 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: not be allowed to bring a suit, and yet they did, 564 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: and it was just affirmed in the Fifth Circuit. Let's 565 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: talk about that fifth circuit. So this judge was picked 566 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: by the anti abortion group that was bringing lawsuits. It 567 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: was jurisdiction chopping. He was picked because in this jurisdiction 568 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: there's only one judge, and this judge has been a 569 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: very vocal anti choice activist since way before he was 570 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: put on the bench. This case now went up to 571 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: the Fifth Circuit. The Fifth Circuit is notoriously shitty. Can 572 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: you explain why and how? And I know you won't 573 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: use the word shitty, but since I'm not awe where 574 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: I can use technical terms? Yeah, no, no, no, sure, 575 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: I'll try not to use any Latin. So the Fifth 576 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: Circuit is a very conservative circuit, and lots of the 577 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: rulings that come out of the Fifth Circuit are not 578 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: rulings that people they would describe themselves as progressive. They 579 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: don't like those decisions. I think people even in the 580 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: center recognize that the Fifth Circuit is really somewhat extreme 581 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: in their conservative views. I would also just say that 582 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: it's also true that the Ninth Circuit in California has 583 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,439 Speaker 1: historically been known for its very strong liberal views. So 584 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: this is not something that was just invented by Republicans 585 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: or the Federal society. But it is true that this 586 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: strategy of stocking the federal judiciary with conservatives, and in 587 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: particular Trumpist judges has been going full tilt. I mean, 588 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: it was one of the main reasons why a lot 589 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: of conservatives supported Donald Trump, even though everything about him 590 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: is kind of not very conservative, not very conservative, not 591 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: very family values. So and we can talk about it, 592 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: but I think that this has created an enormous political 593 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: problem for the Publican Party because they created a monster 594 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: and now it's hard to see how they put it 595 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: back in the box. Yeah, so I wanted to ask 596 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: you about the I feel like the federal Society has 597 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: gotten some bad publicity lately. You've written on this a lot. 598 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things about this pro PUBLICA reporting 599 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: about Clarence Thomas and his good friend Harlan Crowe. If 600 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: that isn't a superhero villain name, I don't know what 601 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: is his good friend Harlan Crowe, is that there is 602 00:35:53,880 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: actually no ethics provision for the Supreme Court, kind of 603 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: the cut of judicial ethics. I believe that's the name 604 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: that applies to federal judiciure doesn't apply to the Supreme Court, though, 605 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: as good law and order people, they do consult the 606 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: rules as they say, and I mean, you know, I 607 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 1: mean the thing is, I'm a law professor, are teaching 608 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: a law school, and one of the things I tell 609 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: students over and ever again, I don't everyone tells us that, 610 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: you know, there's one thing to have a conflict of interest, 611 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: you know, and that's that's bad. But the second thing 612 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: is to it's really important to avoid appearances of conflict 613 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: of interest. And Clarence Thomas seems to get into these 614 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 1: bad optics. Is like the king of bad optics. Yeah, 615 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: he is, he really is. I call him Justice hot 616 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: Dog Guy, oh break because of the hot dog Guy 617 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: meme where he's like, how did we get here? Right? 618 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: Right exactly? Guy dressed up at a hot dog sued 619 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: through the hot dog car trying to get to the 620 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: bottom of things. Yeah, we gotta get to about her 621 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: who did this? And I think it's just completely laughable 622 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 1: of when Clarence Thomas says, oh, I think the leak 623 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: of Dabbs has eroded the legitimacy of the Supreme Court, 624 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 1: as if that hasn't been what he's been doing for 625 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: the last several decades. I think it's a huge embarrassment 626 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: how he's been behaving but he acts to me like 627 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: he which technically he is untouchable. One of the things 628 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: that Justice Roberts and I don't want to give Justice 629 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: Roberts too much credit, really, I don't. But Justice Roberts 630 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 1: has been very much a person who we've seen behind 631 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: the scenes trying desperately to get these trumpy justices to 632 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: slow their role, to not change everything right away, to 633 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,439 Speaker 1: keep focused on the legitimacy of the court, whatever that means. 634 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: But he also has a wife who is a legal recruiter. 635 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 1: I guess I want to be kind of careful, you know, 636 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,720 Speaker 1: so lots of times, you know, when you have professionals 637 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: and their couples and they are their own people, and 638 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 1: so we we should be kind of careful about not 639 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: caring one partner with what the other partner does. Though 640 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: I think in the case of Justice Thomas, I think 641 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: there are really serious problems with his partner and how 642 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,919 Speaker 1: he's behaved visa viright. But you know, in terms of 643 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: Justice Roberts, you know, like we you know, our partners 644 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: have lives too, and they have lives before Justice Roberts 645 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: in this case, you know, was elevated not only to 646 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, but to the to be Chief Justice, So 647 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: I would be just kind of careful about not trying 648 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: to overcriticize the conservative majority. I think there's plenty plenty, right, 649 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: But I'm just saying it speaks to the idea of 650 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: why Justice Roberts might not want to go down this road. Oh, 651 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: I say, I see what you're saying. I say, I 652 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 1: also just think that, you know, it's called the Roberts Court, 653 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: and you know, his legacy is tied up with how 654 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: some of these really reckless people his colleagues are behaving, right, 655 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 1: And I think it paints him because I think he's, 656 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: you know, a conservative small see who wants you know, 657 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: he's got conservative views. But I think he also wants 658 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,359 Speaker 1: to maintain the legitimacy legitimacy of the Court, which at 659 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: this point I think that ship has sailed. So I 660 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: want to ask you, So we have this abortion ruling, 661 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: one of the many problems here is that we have 662 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: also other rulings that are about mytho prostone, which are 663 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: contrary in other circuits. Can you talk about that? Yeah? 664 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: Out of Washington State, like within hours, I forgot which 665 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: one came first, but one had come out saying that 666 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: I think it was in seventeen states that the Democrats 667 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: that Democratic attorneys general we're trying to keep access to 668 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: abortion medications. And so now we have a situation where 669 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: we have dueling injunctions to Washington State saying that least 670 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: in seventeen states that access to medication has to be provided, 671 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: and the Texas saying that in all fifty states it 672 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: can't be. And so this is not great. And so 673 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: this is why we have circuit courts that as appellate 674 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: courts that try to resolve some of these disagreements. Although 675 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: the Fifth Circuit which includes Texas, does not include Washington 676 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: State here. So ultimately, if we want to get this resolved, 677 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: they'll probably go up to the Supreme Court. So let 678 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: me ask you about this. It seems like that you 679 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: have all these different judges with different ideas on how 680 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: this should go. The Supreme Courts about to go on vacation. 681 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: They take their summers very seriously. As somebody who also 682 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: takes the summer circuit, I don't want to be I 683 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 1: don't want to be too critical because I am you know, 684 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: we do get the summers off, not summers off. We 685 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,280 Speaker 1: don't teach during the summers as academics. But yes, spring 686 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: Court has been moving really Historically they've moved slowly, but 687 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: they've been moving particularly slowly this year and last year too. 688 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: Probably some of it's COVID. Probably some of it was 689 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: distrust about the leak is slowing things down. Maybe there's 690 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: political tensions, institutional tensions there. I don't know, but like, right, 691 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. It's hard to it's hard. It's 692 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: hard to know when they'll get around to ruling and 693 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: then what they'll rule. It's so hard to say. They 694 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: could do it on the shadow docket like they did 695 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: with SBA the Texas abortion law. They basically overturned Row 696 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: a year before Rowe was overturned. Yeah, basically they could 697 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: do that, which is basically not schedule oral arguments and 698 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 1: have hearings and then write an opinion, but basically just 699 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 1: vote on what they wanted to do and then just 700 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: deal with it that way. The Supreme Court has become 701 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: really quite even more unpredictable, I think in certain ways 702 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: institutionally and also just like who knows how they're going 703 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: to rule in this case. So that's what I wanted 704 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: to ask you about the Supreme Court because West Virginia 705 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: had a trans kids sports ban which they kicked up 706 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,359 Speaker 1: to the court, and the court refused to hear it 707 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:27,320 Speaker 1: on the docket, but they did. The dissenters were Thomas 708 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: and Alito. Let me say the following thing to give 709 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: listeners a sense of what's at stake here. So on 710 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: the one hand, you know, obviously access to safe and 711 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 1: effective abortion medication is something that one side wants a 712 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: lot and the other side does not want. But there's 713 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: also a thing going on, which is the standing doctrine. 714 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 1: So the standing doctrine, as I mentioned earlier, is about 715 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: like when are you allowed to actually bring a lawsuit? 716 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,400 Speaker 1: And the standing doctrine was made more and more severe, 717 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: meaning harder and harder for plaintiffs to bring lawsuits in 718 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,239 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties two thousands, because it was a 719 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: way of stopping progressives from bringing lawsuits against let's say, 720 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: the Reagan administration or environmental activists would bring these lawsuits 721 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: to try to stop some agency action that would affect 722 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: the environment, and the conservative justices and judges really whittled 723 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: down when you were allowed to bring lawsuits. So if 724 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court were to say, yes, we're going to 725 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: change standing doctrine. So now people who are really directly 726 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: affected by a law it's still challenge it. Then that 727 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 1: opens up the floodgates to all progressive activists who want 728 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: to challenge the things that they want to challenge. So 729 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: the standing doctrine was a creation in the last several days, 730 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: gates out of the conservative movement, and so now they're 731 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 1: being a bit hoisted by their own pitard. This is 732 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: super interesting. Thank you so much. I hope you will 733 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,160 Speaker 1: come back. I would love to, and I will tell 734 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 1: anti Esta to listen. Molly junk Fast, Jesse Cannon. You 735 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: know it was the best when all these people who've 736 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:31,279 Speaker 1: been bought things by Harlan Crowe, we're saying, no, there's 737 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with Clarence Thomas taking vacation, and then another 738 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: shoe drops to make them look stupid. No, I'm gonna 739 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: go back here and say they were saying that there's 740 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with having Nazi artifacts, and in fact, there 741 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: was an article title having Nazi artifacts does not make 742 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,839 Speaker 1: you a Nazi. You horrible Internet people forever saying such 743 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: bad things about our favorite donor. Again, I ask you, 744 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: all right, let's just stop and do a thought experiment. 745 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 1: If a Democratic donor had the standing bull death mask 746 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 1: and cocktail napkins, personally, I would just not simp for 747 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: the guy with Hitler's cocktail napkins. But that is a 748 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: choice that all of us need to make. Anyway, Today 749 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: we learn Harlan Crowe, but Justice, Clarence Thomas's houses, numerous 750 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 1: houses that maybe Clarence Thomas couldn't sell, or maybe we 751 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: don't even know. It looks like fuckery to me, and 752 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: for that that is our moment of fuckery. That's it 753 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, 754 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes 755 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, 756 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 757 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.