WEBVTT - Changing Hearts, Changing Minds 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.600 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wika F Daily with 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.880 Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Folks. 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:25.759 I'm really excited for today's guest. I have been a 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:27.720 fan girl. I'm not a fan girl of a lot 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:32.560 of people, but Annan Giri Dadas is definitely one of them. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.760 And I would say, if you're not following him on Twitter, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:37.760 you should. But I know many of you deleted your 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.959 Twitter accounts as I'm about to. But he wrote an 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:50.360 incredibly poignant and thoughtful book called The Persuaders at the 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.520 front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds and Democracy, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.840 and in it he interviews a past Woke F guest, 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:02.040 not a Sario Schenker, who we did a two part 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:07.920 show with to discuss messaging right and why Democrats continue 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:13.160 to get messaging wrong, and in a nonced book, he 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.920 really gets to the core of the core of why 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.880 we need as Democrats to be persuaders and to not 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:27.400 be above this idea that we need to convince people. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.360 And in order to convince people to do anything, you 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:35.080 actually need to understand people. You need to go where 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:37.920 the people are instead of thinking that the people are 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.880 going to come where you are. And for too long, 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:46.160 the Democratic Party, the Democratic establishment has been immovable right 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.320 with the same voices, the same people in the same place, 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:53.200 talking about the same shit in the same way. Now, 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.600 at the time of this recording, we have no idea 0:01:55.640 --> 0:02:00.800 what the outcome of the election is. But regardless of 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:05.880 the election and its results, a non provide such clear 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.040 focus of where we need to go, why we need 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.720 to continue to have hope and that the work begins 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:20.200 the day after election day and every single day following. 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.200 And so, folks, I hope not only that you go 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.359 out and buy this book and buy it for yourselves, 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.680 buy it as this holiday season begins to start, buy 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.040 it for everybody that you know, right, because we all 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:38.280 need to get on the same page to be a 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:43.359 part of the movement for freedom. Right And what does 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:48.640 that mean. It means about learning people, understanding them, developing 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:53.359 and flexing your emotional intelligence so that we can meet 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.240 people where they are instead of thinking that they are 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:59.800 going to come to us. So, coming up next, dear friends, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:05.239 my in depth conversation with Anon giridadas the author of 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:10.320 The Persuaders at the front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:17.920 and Democracy. Folks, I am very excited to welcome to 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.520 woke F I believe for the very first time, although 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.959 we did have a meeting at one time when people 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.120 still went into green rooms at MSNBC. I am welcoming 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.960 to woke F Daily for the very first time. Anon 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.240 garridadas the author of The Persuaders at the front Lines 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.720 of the Fight for Hearts, Minds and Democracy, and also 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.960 the author of another book which I think was also brilliant, 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:48.880 Winners Take All the elite charade of changing the world. 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.000 I'm super excited to talk to you as am. I. 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:59.040 I remember meeting you in the green room at MSNBC. 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.440 This is pre COVID, so at least sixty seven years ago. Yea, 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.160 and my hair was black, you know, I want to 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:14.040 see to you it was. It was largely black. A 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:18.680 lot's happened since then, and you have been and continue 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.000 to be an absolute force on Twitter just speaking truth 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:27.040 to power about our democracy. And so I want to 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:30.520 jump in with the first question, you know, with regard 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:37.039 to persuaders, is look for me. Forty three million people 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.560 were persuaded to believe Donald Trump Trump is m and 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:45.320 his lies. Seventy five million people voted for him. Thirty 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.239 three percent of the country still believes that the election 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.880 in twenty twenty was stolen. What is it that you 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.800 believe that the far right is able to persuade, use lies, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:02.760 disinformation in order to persuade their base to agree with 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.919 some of the most cruel, oppressive, and disgusting policies that 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.080 I think that we've ever seen in this country versus 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:15.080 the Democrats inability to really to persuade anybody, except to 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:17.599 continue to have in fighting in a way that we 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.320 have seen has damaged our ability to really spread our 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.160 message in the way that it needs to be. Yeah. 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.440 I love that question because you're getting at a very 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:32.440 crucial truth, which is that on the democratic side, the 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.600 political left general, you often hear this thing that like, 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.480 people's minds can't be changed, people can't be persuaded, you know, 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.040 And the right loves it when we say this, because 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.680 they believe in persuasion. As you just very eloquently laid out, 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:50.640 the right believes that people's minds can be moved. Did 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.640 anybody know what QAnon was ten years ago? No, because 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.720 it didn't exist. Forty three million Americans have been persuaded 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.400 into an entirely new belief system QAnon. You know in 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.080 the time that my hair has turned gray. You know, 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.159 Donald Trump took the Republican Party from a free trade 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:15.080 platform to an anti trade platform, from you know, a 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.720 kind of like business first thing to a kind of 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:23.680 like white nationalist first orientation in its rhetoric and messaging 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:29.800 and strategy, like the right believes you can move people, 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.960 you can summon people to a new different set of ideas. 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.200 And I think we on left often are just like, 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.359 you know, this kind of like French philosophers cigarette shrug pose, 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.640 just like, oh, they'll never change their minds and they'll 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:48.440 never change their ways. And it is empirically false, ye, 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:56.240 empirically false. Witness for eg, the remarkable revolution, attitudes to 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.799 gain lesbian people in our lifetime, right and you're my lifetime, 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.640 Like Barack Obama was not for gay marriage when he 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.640 ran for president, right, like the sea change that we 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.000 have lived through on that issue and many other issues 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.560 in our time, on the status of women, women see themselves, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.960 how men see themselves and men see women. Like, we're 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.280 not there on any of these things. We're not there 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.480 yet to answer the kids in the backseat, but we 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:27.240 are people change all the time, right, And often I 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:29.720 think on the political left we've, in our sadness and 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.400 despair what's gone on, we've gone too far in making 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.920 this bogus claim that people are unchangeable, while the right 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.280 is all up in the grill of changing people. And second, 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.560 it's just a self defeating attitude in addition to being false, 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:50.480 that basically concedes that democracy isn't a thing that can work. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.360 I mean, if you don't believe that you can go 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:58.360 into the arena and say certain things frame certain things 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.240 offer a certain material benefit, it's the people, policies for 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:05.160 people and move them. Then like, what are you engaged 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.080 in democracy for? And I think often what I perceive 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.200 is that many of us on the political left who 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:16.040 are making claims about the impossibility of persuasion are actually 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.400 just narrating our own impotence. We're not talking like we 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:22.520 think we're making a claim about these other people who 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.240 can't be one. But what we're really telling you is 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.000 that we ain't that good at doing it. And if 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.400 you're not that great doing it, step aside for people 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:35.960 who are, because there are amazing organizers, activists, cognitive scientists, others. 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.360 I studied for this book, who know how to persuade, 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.320 who know how to move minds, who know how to 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.440 do the kind of base building work for the long haul, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:48.120 to build deeper, long term support from multiracial democracy. And 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:53.199 I think we need kind of wholesale changes of leadership 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:59.360 in communication on the democratic side, on organizing, on any 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:03.240 number of things, certainly the fundraising emails. We need the 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.839 movement to be led by people who know how to 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.040 change minds, who are willing to do the work, and 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.760 who are showing success at doing so. There are those people, 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:12.760 and I wrote the book to try to highlight them 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.560 and elevate them and uplift them in the hope that 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:19.320 they will be the dominant forces and voices on the 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.000 kind of pro democracy, pro freedom side. Do you think? 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.520 I mean, I you know I can impact so much 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.760 in the answer that you just provided. And you know 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.680 a not who you gave a chapter two She did 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:37.079 a two part episode on will gay app as well 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:40.360 as democracy? Ish Okay, I only get a one part. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.160 We don't know yet it could go for two, We 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.360 could go for do um. But you know she gave 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.319 such I mean it was like nothing was earth shattering, 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.760 And I'm like why do they make it seem so hard? 0:09:56.320 --> 0:10:00.480 What you're offering makes sense, right, But do we lead? 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:02.640 Like are we too good? And that this is kind 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.520 of what I'm distilling from what you said. Our Democrats 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:09.920 too good to believe in persuasion, Like DoD They just 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:13.480 want people to be born with the with the ideas 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:15.920 of what is right in their head. Like they believe 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:19.319 that if I persuade you, then somehow I'm out here 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.000 doing the devil's work, as opposed to I think you're again, 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.800 like in your trademark, while you're hitting on like the 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.840 very deep cores of this thing. So there's a couple 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.199 very deep cores of this that you're absolutely right about. 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:37.880 I think one is I had it's interesting conversation about 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:42.440 my book with Noam Chomsky a few weeks ago, right 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.240 before the book came out, and he said, he said, 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.400 you know, I have an interesting relationship paraphrasing, he's like 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.719 an interesting relationship to your book because I want all 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.520 the people in your book to win, and like they're 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.200 the people I think should win. But he's like, when 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.720 you frame it as persuasion, he's like for him, Noam Chomsky, 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:05.040 he's thinking of like advertising and propaganda, and like pr 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.280 he's thinking of all the things that basically he hates 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:13.920 and thinks undermine progress and undergird like capital, a manic 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.800 kind of hyper capitalism. And so I think his book, 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.080 my book was like complicated for him because he was like, wait, 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.959 should Bernie Sanders be like telling more personal stories and 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.840 building a more human you know, appeal? Or is that 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:33.160 like the Coca Cola isation of Bernie Sanders? Now? I so, So, 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:34.640 I think that's one thing I think on the left, 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:38.600 there is an aversion to a certain kind of persuasion 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:42.000 that reads to people as like madmen or or or 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.920 like you know, I personally say, I think that's misguided. 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:47.960 Like I think it matters whether you're selling Coca Cola 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:52.760 or Bernie Sanders. Like I think if Bernie Sanders, if 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:54.640 the advice, you know, for for example, that I would 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:56.480 get is that Bernie Sanders should tell a lot more 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.199 people that a crappy healthcare system killed his mom when 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.319 he was eighteen or nine teen years old, and no 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:04.880 one knows that, and it's his signature domestic issue. And 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.000 my mom didn't love Bernie Sanders. In the twenty sixteen 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.200 or twenty twenty runs, But I can tell you she 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.640 would have related a lot to Bernie Sanders telling you 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.280 he spent the next fifty something years of his life 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.360 avenging his mother's death by trying to make healthcare available 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.560 for everybody. My mom might have listened to that part, right, 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:26.319 even if she didn't like the policy, if that's you know, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.160 if that's cheap, like I don't, I don't want to 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.800 be not cheap. You know, that to me is you know, 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:37.079 is politics. And so I think part of the interesting, 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.120 like beautiful conversation I had with Chomsky about this gets 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:44.920 at this notion of, you know, our Democrats and the 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.520 left for generally too high minded in their view of 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.280 who people are, you know, just like who we are, Like, 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:54.160 how do we have a good grounded sense of how 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.400 people are actually forming opinions? And I think if you 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.880 have an excessively high minded view, you think of it 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.680 as a cerebral process. People are you know, you, Danielle, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:05.680 are like finishing this podcast and you're going sitting that 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:07.720 couch picking up some of those books on the shelf, 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:12.800 and you're formulating your view on you know, policies, and 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.240 then you're going to like vote, you know, you already 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.160 voted obviously from your sticker, And I just don't think 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:20.760 that's how I don't think that's how it is for 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:25.720 me and you, and we are highly educated, like engaged 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.240 people politically. It is definitely not how ninety percent of 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.000 people who are maybe less engaged politically than us form opinions. 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:35.880 Like one of the people in the book says to me, 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:42.400 political opinion formation is primarily an emotional process. Now, I 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.720 think not would agree with that. I think I agree 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:46.679 with that. You sound like you agree with that. I 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:51.439 don't think the establishment of the Democratic Party believes that. 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.080 And if they did, they're either engaging in like woeful 0:13:55.120 --> 0:14:00.520 malpractice or they just you know, have no idea what 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.600 they're doing. If you start to say, okay, let me 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:09.040 not start with like policies or bullet point plans or whatever. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.360 Let me start with like what are people like, what 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:14.920 is going on with people? What in general? How do 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.160 people form opinions? Also, what's going on to people now? 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.240 What are people afraid of now? Right? And then let 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.560 me let me try to like back my policies into 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.400 where people are now, yes, right, human center, like anyone 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.680 selling anything like people people don't take this diet coke 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.280 and again like this is going to that like commercial place, 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:35.960 which is I think what freaks some people out on 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.400 the left. But like people are not like you know, 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.600 like this tastes like caramel mix with people are like 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.480 what do people want? People want to like have fun 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:47.480 with their friends, People want to feel young again. People right, 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:52.520 and then they somehow like hook diet coke into rude 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.760 understanding of like what you want, where you are, and 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.320 where you want to go. Now, if I were to 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.640 take Medicare for all, I don't I think it's cheap 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:03.440 or tacky to say, don't just say healthcare as a 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.920 human right. That that's like centering the thing. It's not 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.920 centering you, right, Like here's here's a different way to 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:13.480 talk about Medicare for all, which is you and me. 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.760 And you know, half the people in this country have 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.400 a business idea that is like kicking around our head 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.920 or that we like bend our friend's ears about at 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:28.280 the bar, right and for like I would say ninety 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.560 percent of Americans I've ever talked to at a business idea, 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.960 there is number one reason they can't go pursue it 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:40.480 is they can't leave their current employer based healthcare right 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.200 to go to the business idea. If you have kids 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.720 or you have a spouse, you'd literally be like jeopardizing 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.880 your child. Ninety percent of Americans would have to jeopardize 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:55.200 their child's life to start a business idea. Okay, so 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.760 is that capitalism? Is that called capitalism when you can't? 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:05.360 Nine percent of business ideas just are never activated because 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.360 you'd be endangering your child's life to quit your job 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.800 and do the business idea, even if you have a 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:17.160 plan and a potential investors. So what would it look 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:22.120 like to advocate for medicare for all? Starting with that 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:25.880 kind of understanding of that aspiration that so many millions 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.040 of Americans have, You might you might be able to 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.960 tap into all kinds of people who are not drawn 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.040 to a healthcare as a human right argument or a 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.920 moral frame, or who don't know what medicare is and 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:37.880 not sure why you want to now make it for all, 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:40.720 but you know, you might call it freedom care. You 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:44.040 might explain how it ties into the real, lived desire 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.160 for liberation that people have without you having to explain 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.480 it to them. And so that's just one example I 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.680 think of what it would look like for the Democratic 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:55.760 Party and the left generally to have a kind of 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.400 user centered politics. Start with who people are, what's going 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:05.320 on with them? Yeah, and proceed from there. One hundred 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:08.480 percent agree. And I have often said that I believe 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.960 that Democrats think that people are better than they are, 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.800 and I believe that Republicans actually know who people are, right, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:18.000 which is that people are easily persuadable. If you give 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:21.560 them the same talking point over and over again, from 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.680 Fox to qan on to Newsmax to wherever that they'll go, 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:28.560 it becomes that that earworm right, And then all of 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.880 a sudden, it's now popping up in all of their 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.520 social media feeds because our phones and our computers and 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:37.760 everything listens to everything that we're doing, so everything becomes reinforced. 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:39.879 And it's this idea that we think that people have 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.000 more time and are better than they are, right, that 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:44.920 Democrats are just like, no, no, no, We're going to 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.719 take the high road. I had a great issue. I 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.480 love Michelle Obama. I think that Michelle Obama is literally 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:54.160 the salt of the earth. But when she said that 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:57.800 when they go low, we go high, I said, no, no, 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:01.720 because you can't fight a seward game on horseback. Right, 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.560 like you have to actually be down in the mud. 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.720 And so I think that democrats do believe that they 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.680 are better than and they want people to And that's 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.440 where the elitist attitude comes from, that the right places 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.800 on top of us is that, oh, you're just elitist. 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.520 And it's just like, no, I fundamentally know that I'm 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:24.160 a better person than somebody who believes that gay people, Muslims, 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:26.760 you know, trans people and what have you don't deserve 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:30.119 space and place in this universe. Like, I definitely know 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.199 I'm better than those people, But if I'm actually trying 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:38.320 to get them to recognize to your point that yeah, 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.760 I shouldn't have to be tied to my job like 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:45.000 some indentured servant because I need health insurance. Like if 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.959 this country is built on everyone pulling themselves up from 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.600 their bootstraps, then shouldn't I be able to become the 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:56.360 next egomaniac billionaire? Right, Like, shouldn't that right be afforded 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.080 to me? So I wonder, like, what do you I 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:01.920 kind of just pause you on that it was such 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.560 a great like what you just said, right, what Like 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:14.960 why haven't we reframed the current healthcare system as indentured servitude. Right, 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.600 that's exactly like you just came up with that. Yeah, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:23.280 like talking right, they spend millions of dollars in markets 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.840 they'd never come up with that, you know, like maybe 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.159 they could hire you, but like that's exactly and so 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:30.800 what what you when you when you said that, suddenly 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:32.720 the issue in my mind, I just like felt my 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.400 own brain go like, oh, it's not like I'm trying 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.960 to like sell people in some crazy new healthcare idea 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:41.399 like our current things indentured servitude are Are you for that? 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.679 Or who's for indentured servitude healthcare? Right? It's just reflipping it, 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.639 like and and the fact that we hear so little 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.159 of that ever done those kind of reframings, whereas the 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:53.880 right is doing that every damn day with partial birth, 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:57.360 abortion and death tax and they're just right death panels 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:02.480 like it's it. It's literally the case that our healthcare 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.080 system creates indentured servitude. Yes, and we have never been 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:07.960 able to frame it in those kinds of ways. I 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.879 mean when you say to me, I can't I have 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:16.920 a great idea, I have a great aspiration, and I 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.760 can't leave my job and go ahead and forge this 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:25.400 idea of the American dream because I'm shackled to a job. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.080 What else would you call that? Correct? And I would 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.199 have once you opened that then by like Bernie had 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.639 a problem in communities of color in particular, right and 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.240 with older voters, and you know there was that he had. 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.719 He was pushing up against certain limits in the coalition, right, 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.960 could you imagine and these, by the way, the most 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.480 marginalized communities of the communities were the aspiration to build 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:47.920 a business is strong because you may not be able 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.560 to get that job at that big company that is 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.400 still discriminatory whatever, but the idea of creating your own 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.800 thing is is a big aspiration. By the way, I 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.480 think it's why Republicans are winning a bunch of black 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.840 and Hispanic men because there's a lay bage of aspiration 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.399 and commercial like you know that they feel put off 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.320 by Democratic Party. That's a whole other conversation. Imagine if 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:11.240 Bernie had done events in communities of color asking everybody 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.119 to come up and share their business idea, like fucking 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:19.240 Bernie Shark Tank, come up and share your business idea, 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:24.200 but also talk about your current healthcare thing situation, talk 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:26.000 about how you actually can't do that, and then Bernie 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:29.000 would like explain to you how you could like right, like, 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:30.879 I think a lot of you know, some of the 0:21:30.920 --> 0:21:33.680 more diehard socialist elements in his campaign Britain, like why 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.679 would you do an event around people's business aspirations? Right? 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:38.639 But just like that, to me is the kind of 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.960 politics that I'm interested in. The optics and the substance 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.919 of Bernie Sanders sitting with a bunch of like black 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:50.560 and Hispanic and Asian American entrepreneurs with dreams saying we're 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.840 the party of aspiration. Also, we want you to go 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.000 from your one store to five stores and queens or whatever. 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:03.239 And here's why having health care for all is going 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.760 to make that happen for you, right it. Just imagine 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:10.000 the amount of reframe there, Imagine the additional scope of 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.879 people who might be interested with that kind of pitch, 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:14.919 and I think you can go issue by issue and 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.760 think about persuasion in that way. And it's funny because 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:23.120 for me, I will tell you that the tagline blah 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:28.800 blah blah for all is problematic. And why do I 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:34.199 think that it's problematic? Because White America works from a 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:40.600 scarcity model. It is not an abundant place America does 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.320 not have enough for you over there that I don't know, 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.040 and I don't like. I don't like how you pray, 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:46.760 I don't like how you love. I don't like how 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.160 you look. So all of a sudden, when you start 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:53.119 talking about blah blah blah for all, what they hear 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.679 is that I have to give something up. I have 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.399 to give something up in order for all to be 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.119 able to have it. And it's so easy for the 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.560 right to reframe. And so when you just look at 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.080 these things and you say, okay, well, instead of it 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:12.040 being for all, even though that's what we want, that's 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.359 our value as democrats. But how I'm going to frame 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.159 it is about freedom. How I'm going to frame it 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:22.160 is about what you are owed because of the work 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:24.760 that you have put in, and you make it about 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:29.560 them instead of everybody. That's the problem that democrats, I believe, 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:31.800 have is that they want they want to believe that 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:36.560 people have this you know, lofty idea of wanting to 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:40.879 be empaths and give to everyone around them, which I'm like, 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.119 what the Republicans have proved is that yeah, capitalism and 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:48.119 inflation and all of these things have made us greedy 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:51.320 as fuck right, so like there isn't more than enough. 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:54.680 Obama was the last one that had us believe that, 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:57.760 oh my god, the wealth of this nation can provide 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:00.520 for all. And we believed in because the message was that, 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:07.399 you know, uh, just combative, combative to that rhetoric on 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:10.680 the right. And I wonder like, is it the two 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.880 on top of having the right messenger and the right message? 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:18.840 Is it wrong for us on the left to continue 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:24.560