1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wika F Daily with 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Bunker. Folks. 3 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: I'm really excited for today's guest. I have been a 4 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: fan girl. I'm not a fan girl of a lot 5 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: of people, but Annan Giri Dadas is definitely one of them. 6 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: And I would say, if you're not following him on Twitter, 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: you should. But I know many of you deleted your 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,959 Speaker 1: Twitter accounts as I'm about to. But he wrote an 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: incredibly poignant and thoughtful book called The Persuaders at the 10 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds and Democracy, 11 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: and in it he interviews a past Woke F guest, 12 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: not a Sario Schenker, who we did a two part 13 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: show with to discuss messaging right and why Democrats continue 14 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: to get messaging wrong, and in a nonced book, he 15 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: really gets to the core of the core of why 16 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: we need as Democrats to be persuaders and to not 17 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: be above this idea that we need to convince people. 18 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: And in order to convince people to do anything, you 19 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: actually need to understand people. You need to go where 20 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: the people are instead of thinking that the people are 21 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: going to come where you are. And for too long, 22 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, the Democratic establishment has been immovable right 23 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: with the same voices, the same people in the same place, 24 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: talking about the same shit in the same way. Now, 25 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: at the time of this recording, we have no idea 26 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: what the outcome of the election is. But regardless of 27 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: the election and its results, a non provide such clear 28 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: focus of where we need to go, why we need 29 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: to continue to have hope and that the work begins 30 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: the day after election day and every single day following. 31 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: And so, folks, I hope not only that you go 32 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: out and buy this book and buy it for yourselves, 33 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: buy it as this holiday season begins to start, buy 34 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: it for everybody that you know, right, because we all 35 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: need to get on the same page to be a 36 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: part of the movement for freedom. Right And what does 37 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: that mean. It means about learning people, understanding them, developing 38 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 1: and flexing your emotional intelligence so that we can meet 39 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: people where they are instead of thinking that they are 40 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: going to come to us. So, coming up next, dear friends, 41 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 1: my in depth conversation with Anon giridadas the author of 42 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: The Persuaders at the front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, 43 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: and Democracy. Folks, I am very excited to welcome to 44 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: woke F I believe for the very first time, although 45 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: we did have a meeting at one time when people 46 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: still went into green rooms at MSNBC. I am welcoming 47 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: to woke F Daily for the very first time. Anon 48 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: garridadas the author of The Persuaders at the front Lines 49 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: of the Fight for Hearts, Minds and Democracy, and also 50 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: the author of another book which I think was also brilliant, 51 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: Winners Take All the elite charade of changing the world. 52 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: I'm super excited to talk to you as am. I. 53 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: I remember meeting you in the green room at MSNBC. 54 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: This is pre COVID, so at least sixty seven years ago. Yea, 55 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: and my hair was black, you know, I want to 56 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: see to you it was. It was largely black. A 57 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: lot's happened since then, and you have been and continue 58 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: to be an absolute force on Twitter just speaking truth 59 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: to power about our democracy. And so I want to 60 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: jump in with the first question, you know, with regard 61 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 1: to persuaders, is look for me. Forty three million people 62 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: were persuaded to believe Donald Trump Trump is m and 63 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: his lies. Seventy five million people voted for him. Thirty 64 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 1: three percent of the country still believes that the election 65 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty was stolen. What is it that you 66 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: believe that the far right is able to persuade, use lies, 67 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: disinformation in order to persuade their base to agree with 68 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 1: some of the most cruel, oppressive, and disgusting policies that 69 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: I think that we've ever seen in this country versus 70 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: the Democrats inability to really to persuade anybody, except to 71 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: continue to have in fighting in a way that we 72 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: have seen has damaged our ability to really spread our 73 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: message in the way that it needs to be. Yeah. 74 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: I love that question because you're getting at a very 75 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: crucial truth, which is that on the democratic side, the 76 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: political left general, you often hear this thing that like, 77 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: people's minds can't be changed, people can't be persuaded, you know, 78 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: And the right loves it when we say this, because 79 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: they believe in persuasion. As you just very eloquently laid out, 80 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: the right believes that people's minds can be moved. Did 81 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: anybody know what QAnon was ten years ago? No, because 82 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: it didn't exist. Forty three million Americans have been persuaded 83 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: into an entirely new belief system QAnon. You know in 84 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: the time that my hair has turned gray. You know, 85 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: Donald Trump took the Republican Party from a free trade 86 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: platform to an anti trade platform, from you know, a 87 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: kind of like business first thing to a kind of 88 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 1: like white nationalist first orientation in its rhetoric and messaging 89 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: and strategy, like the right believes you can move people, 90 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: you can summon people to a new different set of ideas. 91 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: And I think we on left often are just like, 92 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: you know, this kind of like French philosophers cigarette shrug pose, 93 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: just like, oh, they'll never change their minds and they'll 94 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: never change their ways. And it is empirically false, ye, 95 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: empirically false. Witness for eg, the remarkable revolution, attitudes to 96 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: gain lesbian people in our lifetime, right and you're my lifetime, 97 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: Like Barack Obama was not for gay marriage when he 98 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: ran for president, right, like the sea change that we 99 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: have lived through on that issue and many other issues 100 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: in our time, on the status of women, women see themselves, 101 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: how men see themselves and men see women. Like, we're 102 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: not there on any of these things. We're not there 103 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: yet to answer the kids in the backseat, but we 104 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: are people change all the time, right, And often I 105 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: think on the political left we've, in our sadness and 106 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: despair what's gone on, we've gone too far in making 107 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: this bogus claim that people are unchangeable, while the right 108 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: is all up in the grill of changing people. And second, 109 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: it's just a self defeating attitude in addition to being false, 110 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: that basically concedes that democracy isn't a thing that can work. 111 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't believe that you can go 112 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: into the arena and say certain things frame certain things 113 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: offer a certain material benefit, it's the people, policies for 114 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: people and move them. Then like, what are you engaged 115 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: in democracy for? And I think often what I perceive 116 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: is that many of us on the political left who 117 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: are making claims about the impossibility of persuasion are actually 118 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: just narrating our own impotence. We're not talking like we 119 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: think we're making a claim about these other people who 120 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: can't be one. But what we're really telling you is 121 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: that we ain't that good at doing it. And if 122 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: you're not that great doing it, step aside for people 123 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: who are, because there are amazing organizers, activists, cognitive scientists, others. 124 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: I studied for this book, who know how to persuade, 125 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: who know how to move minds, who know how to 126 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: do the kind of base building work for the long haul, 127 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: to build deeper, long term support from multiracial democracy. And 128 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 1: I think we need kind of wholesale changes of leadership 129 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: in communication on the democratic side, on organizing, on any 130 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: number of things, certainly the fundraising emails. We need the 131 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: movement to be led by people who know how to 132 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: change minds, who are willing to do the work, and 133 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: who are showing success at doing so. There are those people, 134 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: and I wrote the book to try to highlight them 135 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: and elevate them and uplift them in the hope that 136 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 1: they will be the dominant forces and voices on the 137 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: kind of pro democracy, pro freedom side. Do you think? 138 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I you know I can impact so much 139 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: in the answer that you just provided. And you know 140 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: a not who you gave a chapter two She did 141 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: a two part episode on will gay app as well 142 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: as democracy? Ish Okay, I only get a one part. 143 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: We don't know yet it could go for two, We 144 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: could go for do um. But you know she gave 145 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: such I mean it was like nothing was earth shattering, 146 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: And I'm like why do they make it seem so hard? 147 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: What you're offering makes sense, right, But do we lead? 148 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: Like are we too good? And that this is kind 149 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: of what I'm distilling from what you said. Our Democrats 150 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: too good to believe in persuasion, Like DoD They just 151 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: want people to be born with the with the ideas 152 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: of what is right in their head. Like they believe 153 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 1: that if I persuade you, then somehow I'm out here 154 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: doing the devil's work, as opposed to I think you're again, 155 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: like in your trademark, while you're hitting on like the 156 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: very deep cores of this thing. So there's a couple 157 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: very deep cores of this that you're absolutely right about. 158 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: I think one is I had it's interesting conversation about 159 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: my book with Noam Chomsky a few weeks ago, right 160 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: before the book came out, and he said, he said, 161 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: you know, I have an interesting relationship paraphrasing, he's like 162 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 1: an interesting relationship to your book because I want all 163 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: the people in your book to win, and like they're 164 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: the people I think should win. But he's like, when 165 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: you frame it as persuasion, he's like for him, Noam Chomsky, 166 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: he's thinking of like advertising and propaganda, and like pr 167 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: he's thinking of all the things that basically he hates 168 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: and thinks undermine progress and undergird like capital, a manic 169 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: kind of hyper capitalism. And so I think his book, 170 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: my book was like complicated for him because he was like, wait, 171 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: should Bernie Sanders be like telling more personal stories and 172 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: building a more human you know, appeal? Or is that 173 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: like the Coca Cola isation of Bernie Sanders? Now? I so, So, 174 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: I think that's one thing I think on the left, 175 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: there is an aversion to a certain kind of persuasion 176 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: that reads to people as like madmen or or or 177 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: like you know, I personally say, I think that's misguided. 178 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: Like I think it matters whether you're selling Coca Cola 179 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: or Bernie Sanders. Like I think if Bernie Sanders, if 180 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: the advice, you know, for for example, that I would 181 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: get is that Bernie Sanders should tell a lot more 182 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 1: people that a crappy healthcare system killed his mom when 183 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: he was eighteen or nine teen years old, and no 184 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: one knows that, and it's his signature domestic issue. And 185 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: my mom didn't love Bernie Sanders. In the twenty sixteen 186 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: or twenty twenty runs, But I can tell you she 187 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: would have related a lot to Bernie Sanders telling you 188 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: he spent the next fifty something years of his life 189 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: avenging his mother's death by trying to make healthcare available 190 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: for everybody. My mom might have listened to that part, right, 191 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: even if she didn't like the policy, if that's you know, 192 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: if that's cheap, like I don't, I don't want to 193 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: be not cheap. You know, that to me is you know, 194 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: is politics. And so I think part of the interesting, 195 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: like beautiful conversation I had with Chomsky about this gets 196 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: at this notion of, you know, our Democrats and the 197 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: left for generally too high minded in their view of 198 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: who people are, you know, just like who we are, Like, 199 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: how do we have a good grounded sense of how 200 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: people are actually forming opinions? And I think if you 201 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: have an excessively high minded view, you think of it 202 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: as a cerebral process. People are you know, you, Danielle, 203 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: are like finishing this podcast and you're going sitting that 204 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: couch picking up some of those books on the shelf, 205 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: and you're formulating your view on you know, policies, and 206 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: then you're going to like vote, you know, you already 207 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: voted obviously from your sticker, And I just don't think 208 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: that's how I don't think that's how it is for 209 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: me and you, and we are highly educated, like engaged 210 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: people politically. It is definitely not how ninety percent of 211 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: people who are maybe less engaged politically than us form opinions. 212 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: Like one of the people in the book says to me, 213 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: political opinion formation is primarily an emotional process. Now, I 214 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: think not would agree with that. I think I agree 215 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: with that. You sound like you agree with that. I 216 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: don't think the establishment of the Democratic Party believes that. 217 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: And if they did, they're either engaging in like woeful 218 00:13:55,120 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: malpractice or they just you know, have no idea what 219 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: they're doing. If you start to say, okay, let me 220 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: not start with like policies or bullet point plans or whatever. 221 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: Let me start with like what are people like, what 222 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: is going on with people? What in general? How do 223 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: people form opinions? Also, what's going on to people now? 224 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: What are people afraid of now? Right? And then let 225 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: me let me try to like back my policies into 226 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: where people are now, yes, right, human center, like anyone 227 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: selling anything like people people don't take this diet coke 228 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: and again like this is going to that like commercial place, 229 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: which is I think what freaks some people out on 230 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: the left. But like people are not like you know, 231 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: like this tastes like caramel mix with people are like 232 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: what do people want? People want to like have fun 233 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: with their friends, People want to feel young again. People right, 234 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: and then they somehow like hook diet coke into rude 235 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: understanding of like what you want, where you are, and 236 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: where you want to go. Now, if I were to 237 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: take Medicare for all, I don't I think it's cheap 238 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: or tacky to say, don't just say healthcare as a 239 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: human right. That that's like centering the thing. It's not 240 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: centering you, right, Like here's here's a different way to 241 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: talk about Medicare for all, which is you and me. 242 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: And you know, half the people in this country have 243 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: a business idea that is like kicking around our head 244 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: or that we like bend our friend's ears about at 245 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: the bar, right and for like I would say ninety 246 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 1: percent of Americans I've ever talked to at a business idea, 247 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: there is number one reason they can't go pursue it 248 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: is they can't leave their current employer based healthcare right 249 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: to go to the business idea. If you have kids 250 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 1: or you have a spouse, you'd literally be like jeopardizing 251 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: your child. Ninety percent of Americans would have to jeopardize 252 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: their child's life to start a business idea. Okay, so 253 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: is that capitalism? Is that called capitalism when you can't? 254 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: Nine percent of business ideas just are never activated because 255 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: you'd be endangering your child's life to quit your job 256 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: and do the business idea, even if you have a 257 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: plan and a potential investors. So what would it look 258 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: like to advocate for medicare for all? Starting with that 259 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: kind of understanding of that aspiration that so many millions 260 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: of Americans have, You might you might be able to 261 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: tap into all kinds of people who are not drawn 262 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: to a healthcare as a human right argument or a 263 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: moral frame, or who don't know what medicare is and 264 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: not sure why you want to now make it for all, 265 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: but you know, you might call it freedom care. You 266 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: might explain how it ties into the real, lived desire 267 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: for liberation that people have without you having to explain 268 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: it to them. And so that's just one example I 269 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: think of what it would look like for the Democratic 270 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: Party and the left generally to have a kind of 271 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: user centered politics. Start with who people are, what's going 272 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: on with them? Yeah, and proceed from there. One hundred 273 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: percent agree. And I have often said that I believe 274 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: that Democrats think that people are better than they are, 275 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: and I believe that Republicans actually know who people are, right, 276 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: which is that people are easily persuadable. If you give 277 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: them the same talking point over and over again, from 278 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: Fox to qan on to Newsmax to wherever that they'll go, 279 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: it becomes that that earworm right, And then all of 280 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: a sudden, it's now popping up in all of their 281 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: social media feeds because our phones and our computers and 282 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: everything listens to everything that we're doing, so everything becomes reinforced. 283 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: And it's this idea that we think that people have 284 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: more time and are better than they are, right, that 285 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: Democrats are just like, no, no, no, We're going to 286 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 1: take the high road. I had a great issue. I 287 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: love Michelle Obama. I think that Michelle Obama is literally 288 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: the salt of the earth. But when she said that 289 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: when they go low, we go high, I said, no, no, 290 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: because you can't fight a seward game on horseback. Right, 291 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: like you have to actually be down in the mud. 292 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: And so I think that democrats do believe that they 293 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: are better than and they want people to And that's 294 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: where the elitist attitude comes from, that the right places 295 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: on top of us is that, oh, you're just elitist. 296 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: And it's just like, no, I fundamentally know that I'm 297 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: a better person than somebody who believes that gay people, Muslims, 298 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: you know, trans people and what have you don't deserve 299 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: space and place in this universe. Like, I definitely know 300 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 1: I'm better than those people, But if I'm actually trying 301 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: to get them to recognize to your point that yeah, 302 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to be tied to my job like 303 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: some indentured servant because I need health insurance. Like if 304 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: this country is built on everyone pulling themselves up from 305 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: their bootstraps, then shouldn't I be able to become the 306 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: next egomaniac billionaire? Right, Like, shouldn't that right be afforded 307 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: to me? So I wonder, like, what do you I 308 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: kind of just pause you on that it was such 309 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: a great like what you just said, right, what Like 310 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: why haven't we reframed the current healthcare system as indentured servitude. Right, 311 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: that's exactly like you just came up with that. Yeah, 312 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: like talking right, they spend millions of dollars in markets 313 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: they'd never come up with that, you know, like maybe 314 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: they could hire you, but like that's exactly and so 315 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: what what you when you when you said that, suddenly 316 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: the issue in my mind, I just like felt my 317 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: own brain go like, oh, it's not like I'm trying 318 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: to like sell people in some crazy new healthcare idea 319 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: like our current things indentured servitude are Are you for that? 320 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: Or who's for indentured servitude healthcare? Right? It's just reflipping it, 321 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: like and and the fact that we hear so little 322 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: of that ever done those kind of reframings, whereas the 323 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: right is doing that every damn day with partial birth, 324 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: abortion and death tax and they're just right death panels 325 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: like it's it. It's literally the case that our healthcare 326 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: system creates indentured servitude. Yes, and we have never been 327 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: able to frame it in those kinds of ways. I 328 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: mean when you say to me, I can't I have 329 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: a great idea, I have a great aspiration, and I 330 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: can't leave my job and go ahead and forge this 331 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 1: idea of the American dream because I'm shackled to a job. 332 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: What else would you call that? Correct? And I would 333 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: have once you opened that then by like Bernie had 334 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: a problem in communities of color in particular, right and 335 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: with older voters, and you know there was that he had. 336 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 1: He was pushing up against certain limits in the coalition, right, 337 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 1: could you imagine and these, by the way, the most 338 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: marginalized communities of the communities were the aspiration to build 339 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: a business is strong because you may not be able 340 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: to get that job at that big company that is 341 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 1: still discriminatory whatever, but the idea of creating your own 342 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: thing is is a big aspiration. By the way, I 343 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: think it's why Republicans are winning a bunch of black 344 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: and Hispanic men because there's a lay bage of aspiration 345 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: and commercial like you know that they feel put off 346 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: by Democratic Party. That's a whole other conversation. Imagine if 347 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: Bernie had done events in communities of color asking everybody 348 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: to come up and share their business idea, like fucking 349 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: Bernie Shark Tank, come up and share your business idea, 350 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: but also talk about your current healthcare thing situation, talk 351 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: about how you actually can't do that, and then Bernie 352 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: would like explain to you how you could like right, like, 353 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: I think a lot of you know, some of the 354 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: more diehard socialist elements in his campaign Britain, like why 355 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 1: would you do an event around people's business aspirations? Right? 356 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: But just like that, to me is the kind of 357 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: politics that I'm interested in. The optics and the substance 358 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: of Bernie Sanders sitting with a bunch of like black 359 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: and Hispanic and Asian American entrepreneurs with dreams saying we're 360 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: the party of aspiration. Also, we want you to go 361 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: from your one store to five stores and queens or whatever. 362 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,239 Speaker 1: And here's why having health care for all is going 363 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: to make that happen for you, right it. Just imagine 364 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: the amount of reframe there, Imagine the additional scope of 365 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: people who might be interested with that kind of pitch, 366 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: and I think you can go issue by issue and 367 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: think about persuasion in that way. And it's funny because 368 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: for me, I will tell you that the tagline blah 369 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: blah blah for all is problematic. And why do I 370 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: think that it's problematic? Because White America works from a 371 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: scarcity model. It is not an abundant place America does 372 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: not have enough for you over there that I don't know, 373 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: and I don't like. I don't like how you pray, 374 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: I don't like how you love. I don't like how 375 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: you look. So all of a sudden, when you start 376 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: talking about blah blah blah for all, what they hear 377 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: is that I have to give something up. I have 378 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: to give something up in order for all to be 379 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: able to have it. And it's so easy for the 380 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: right to reframe. And so when you just look at 381 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: these things and you say, okay, well, instead of it 382 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: being for all, even though that's what we want, that's 383 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: our value as democrats. But how I'm going to frame 384 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: it is about freedom. How I'm going to frame it 385 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: is about what you are owed because of the work 386 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: that you have put in, and you make it about 387 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: them instead of everybody. That's the problem that democrats, I believe, 388 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: have is that they want they want to believe that 389 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: people have this you know, lofty idea of wanting to 390 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: be empaths and give to everyone around them, which I'm like, 391 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: what the Republicans have proved is that yeah, capitalism and 392 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: inflation and all of these things have made us greedy 393 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: as fuck right, so like there isn't more than enough. 394 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: Obama was the last one that had us believe that, 395 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: oh my god, the wealth of this nation can provide 396 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: for all. And we believed in because the message was that, 397 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: you know, uh, just combative, combative to that rhetoric on 398 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: the right. And I wonder like, is it the two 399 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: on top of having the right messenger and the right message? 400 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: Is it wrong for us on the left to continue 401 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: chasing certain candidates and personalities rather than what the right 402 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: has done, which is like, no, you all just need 403 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: to get on board with white supremacy because then you'll 404 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,880 Speaker 1: remain on top. Right, Like they're not just chasing a 405 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: person now, they're chasing like this broader idea. Well, I 406 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,959 Speaker 1: actually think I was thinking about this today when I voted, 407 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: and I'm fascinated in particular by you know, by the 408 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: time people listen to this, like they'll know the results. 409 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: But there's this dead heat for the governorship of New 410 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: York that should not exist, I know. And the thing 411 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: is like, tell me if my assumption here is wrong, 412 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: Like I don't think you or I know a single 413 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: person who feels anything in their heart for the current 414 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,479 Speaker 1: democratic governor of New York, Kathy Hochel or like like 415 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: a young person in this state who feels motivated about 416 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: her or anything, And then you have this like improbable 417 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 1: thing of a Republican doing surprisingly well. But is it 418 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 1: that improbable if you don't even like this is New 419 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: York State. This is the most interesting collection of human 420 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: beings ever assembled under the sun anywhere on planet Earth, 421 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: Like the greatest collection, like you and I live because 422 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: a great like there's no lack of interesting people who 423 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: are smart, politically engaged. So we considered everyone, and Kathy 424 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: Hochel is someone who excites nobody. Is our idea of 425 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: someone who should be the number one, the chief executive 426 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: of this state with the greatest collection of people in 427 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: human history. Well, I don't know why we're surprised when 428 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: we lose. We're not trying to excite people, we're not 429 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: trying to inspire, but we're not trying to build a movement. 430 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: I mean, like it is it is playing with fire 431 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: when you're fighting fascism. So like, think of the gall 432 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: to knowingly run people who literally make no one feel anything. 433 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: What is your assessment of the situation? The right again, 434 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: like the right understands feelings as you say, the right 435 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: inside people as they are right. So, like, is your 436 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: assessment really that it does not matter that the gubernatorial 437 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: candidate on the Democratic side for New York is the 438 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: view of the Democratic Party that it doesn't matter that 439 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: she makes no one feel anything. M is that their assessment, Like, 440 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: I would love for someone to put that in writing. 441 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: I would marvel at that. If that is your assessment. 442 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm wrong, Maybe I don't understand politics. It seems 443 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: quite daring to base an entire candidacy on the view 444 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: that it doesn't matter if people feel like anything for 445 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: a candidate. It doesn't matter if she has any kind 446 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: of movement or not. It doesn't matter if like no 447 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: one I have seen in New York City has worn 448 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: any of her merch. It doesn't matter. None of these 449 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: things matter. Apparently they clearly don't matter. Just all that 450 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: matters is like just telling your voters that shit's dangerous. 451 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: Please give them five dollars and vote for the people 452 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: they're telling you too. I mean, it is such a 453 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: as you said, just unrealistic view of people that it's 454 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: not to me bad political stretches. Like I think what 455 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: we're you and I are talking about it is like 456 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: actually really core and we don't talk about enough, which 457 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: is like prior to politics. Like I think we're dealing 458 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: with a bunch of people in the Democratic Party establishment 459 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: leadership and around it that like are not that smart 460 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: about people. Yeah, not great EQ, just not like really 461 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 1: good at spreadsheets, right, like really good ass and data analysis, 462 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: you see it, right, Just like, but there's just like 463 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: other people in all of our lives who are just 464 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 1: like really smart about people. They just like get people. 465 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: I'm not sure those people are in charge right now. 466 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 1: They don't seem to be. You know what, It's funny 467 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: because I'm so glad that you brought up emotional intelligence 468 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: and EQ because I have to tell you that this 469 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: is a thing that has been completely and totally absent. 470 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: That's it is that Republicans, for as horrible as they are, 471 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: have their finger on the pulse of their people. They 472 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 1: know how to move them, they know how to sway them, 473 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,479 Speaker 1: They know how to make them angry, they know how 474 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: to make them sad. They know how to make them 475 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: cheer at the very idea of violence. Right, they cheered 476 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: for a hammer going into the head of an eighty 477 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: two year old man right. Ten years ago, five years ago, 478 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: those people would look at themselves and they would say 479 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: not in this country, right, because we hold up other 480 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: nations and say, oh, that's what they do. And so 481 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: here they are cheering about the very idea of violence 482 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: because the Republicans have their finger on the pulse. And 483 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: I think again, Democrats are more concerned with focus groups 484 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: and poles rather than the people behind them, rather than 485 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: really going where the people are. I was told the 486 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: other day that I needed to, like a couple of 487 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: months ago, Danielle, you should be on TikTok, and I said, 488 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to do dumb dances. I get on 489 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: Twitter and I get on Instagram and I rage against 490 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: the machine. How does how does that work with TikTok? 491 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: And they're like, because that's where the people are. You. 492 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: If your goal is to change people, to shift people, 493 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: to move them, then you have to go where they are. 494 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: And so I think that it's it's interesting to me 495 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: that Democrats stay put. Essentially, Democrats stay put and think 496 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: that the people are going to come to them. So 497 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: like with the final minutes that we have just you know, 498 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: because your book is also hopeful, right, and we are 499 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: at a time that it is in a loss for hope. 500 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: I tell people all the time I am ye of 501 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: little faith, but clearly I do because I have multiple 502 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: fucking podcasts trying to wake people up. If I didn't 503 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: have faith, then I would just shut the fuck up. 504 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: So what is it that gives you hope? And what 505 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: do you believe that people should be holding onto again? 506 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: By the time that they listen to this, will know 507 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: the results. But should the results in and of themselves matter? 508 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: What should move people? Whether tonight Tuesday of election day 509 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: is a blowout for Democrats, a mediocre result, a surprising, 510 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: you know, surprisingly good night for Democrats, regard hardless of 511 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: that outcome. An enormous project of rebuilding begins Wednesday morning. 512 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: It has to. And there's no scenario tonight that wouldn't 513 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, that would not necessitate a major project of rebuilding. 514 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: Here's the bottom line for me, amid a fascist up 515 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: swell in this country. We do not currently possess a 516 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: pro freedom protomocracy movement capable of burying it and beating 517 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: it durably and consistently. We have a movement that can 518 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: like eke out fifty one forty nine victories sometimes and 519 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: lose you know, minor victories other times, or big, you know, 520 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: lose a big contest other times. But we don't have 521 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: a protomocracy movement that can consistently win in a way 522 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: that is going to keep you and me and our 523 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, like community safe, or anyone frankly safe. So 524 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: we need to build that. We need to build a 525 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,239 Speaker 1: new and improved freedom movement in this country of the 526 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: likes of which we've never seen. I mean, I don't. 527 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: I think that the task right now, the organizing challenge 528 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: right now is immense. And here's what gives me hope. 529 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: I think what we sometimes fail to do is properly 530 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: tell the story of why this is happening and the 531 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: trajectory right to me these I want to be very 532 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: clear Trumpism, Ronda Santis, that this whole movement that is 533 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: increasingly a fascistic right wing movement, they live in my world, 534 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 1: in your world. You and I don't live in their world. 535 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: You and I are not reactionaries to their brilliant, interesting 536 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: ideas for the future. You and I are living in 537 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: a future that is quite different from what this country 538 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: was thirty fifty seventy years ago. You and I are 539 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: living in it and through our voices trying to push 540 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: it even further in the direction that it's been going in. 541 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: And they're living in reaction to us. They are reactionaries 542 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: to us. And I think it's very important to just 543 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: distinguish between whether you and I are living in their 544 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: world or they're living in ours. And one test of 545 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: this is you and I would still be advocating for 546 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: the things we believe in whether or not they existed. Yeah, 547 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: if Donald Trump disappeared, there's you and I would still be. 548 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: The kind of healthcare policies you would want, I think 549 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: would be the same as what you want right now. 550 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: The kind of schools you'd want, what I think be 551 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: the same as what the schools you want right now. 552 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: The kind of foreign policy right could you say the 553 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: same about them? Their entire agenda is to stop people 554 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: like you and me from being you know, full citizens 555 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: of this country. It's to stop it. It is purely parasitic, 556 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: their agenda, their cause on the thing we are trying 557 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: to do. There is no them without us, but there 558 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: isn't us without of them. That is what it means 559 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: to be a reactionary. So they are, as I always say, 560 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: they're barnacles on our progress. They can't exist without the 561 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: progress that has been happening. And so let's actually take 562 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: a moment. Because they know about the progress we've been making, 563 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: that's how they exist. We often don't talk about the 564 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: progress we've made. It is really different to be any 565 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: number of groups in this country than it was fifty 566 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: or one hundred years ago. Right, we get caught up 567 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: in the moment to moment and all the unfinished business. 568 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: We don't pat ourselves on the back for real shifts 569 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: we have made. Right Like my children are in a 570 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: world of children, where the levels of awareness of the 571 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,439 Speaker 1: different experiences of being a human being, the different types 572 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: of people in their midst that need to be seen 573 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: and recognized and treated properly. It puts all of our 574 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: ancestors to shame. I mean, we treat it all of 575 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: our ancestors lovely, as they may have been treated a 576 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: vast swath of the human species terribly for all kinds 577 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: of reasons. Too bad, you're a woman, you're of the 578 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: darker persuasion, your trans You're right if you add it 579 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: all up, we weren't good to most people, right, Like, 580 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: we're not there yet, But it's really different now than 581 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: it was before. You go to campuses, I'm sure you 582 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: have this experience, Like the way these young people just 583 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: like intuitively live in an egalitarian world, the way they 584 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: think about their roles and their relationship, it's just really 585 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: really different than anything else in the history of the world. 586 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: Like we're doing a lot. We've done a lot, We've 587 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: built a lot of progress. And there's something in progressives 588 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: that makes us, i think, unwilling to just like say 589 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: that out loud, because the orientation is toward all that's 590 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: not done, and the psyche is about like losing in 591 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: some ways, and like it's worth saying, like we've changed 592 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: a ton a ton of stuff. We have redefined the 593 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: way we live in so many ways. And this progress 594 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: has inspired as it did after Reconstruction, as it has 595 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: so many times in American history, It's inspired a backlash. 596 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,719 Speaker 1: It's inspired these barnacles, and like we got to deal 597 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: with it, and after Reconstruction it was a long, long, 598 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: long period of backlash. Those backlashes can be years, they 599 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: can be decades, they can be short, they can be long. 600 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: That's what's at stake. Now. There's no question to me 601 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: that this is a backlash, and that we will beat 602 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 1: it the way we beat the same type of people being, 603 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, against the abolition of slavery and against labor 604 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: reform and against the New Deal and against integration and 605 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: against gay rights. Like they lose every time. In the end, 606 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: the question is how long does their backlash get to 607 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: be and how influential does it get to be, and 608 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: how painful does it get to be for everyone? And 609 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 1: I think I have hope because i know what we're 610 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: trying to do, and I'm very focused on the in 611 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: a way awesome project of trying to build a multiracial democracy. 612 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: That is the cause of a lot of our pain 613 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: right now. We are in pain because we're trying to 614 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: These are birth pangs. We are trying to do a 615 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: great thing, and we so seldom remind ourselves that we're 616 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: trying to do a great thing that we depress ourselves. 617 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: So I would say the hope comes from the noble goal, 618 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: the awesome goal, the worthy goal, and then remembering that 619 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: these smallhearted, cynical people have always lost in the long run, 620 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: and they will lose again, and freedom will win again, 621 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 1: and if we want it to happen fast, we better 622 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: buck up, shake off the despair and change our ways. 623 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: You are a delight and I am so absolutely grateful 624 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: for the time that you have spent on wok af 625 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: today and on and just what you were putting out 626 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: into the world, into the universe. And I really hope, folks, 627 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: that you are listening to this and that it holds 628 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: you and you create space for it, because this is 629 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: the journey that we're on. And Anon, I just I 630 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: appreciate you so very much. Folks. The book is the 631 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: persuaders at the front lines of the fight for hearts, 632 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: minds and our democracy. Get it now. Get it as 633 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,320 Speaker 1: a gift. It is the time of Thanksgiving and holidays 634 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: and all of that jazz. Get it for people, and 635 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: get it for yourselves. I hope that you come back again. 636 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: I will come back anytime I want to. I want 637 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 1: to do a three part series to beat a NATS record. Yes, 638 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: I love that is it for me today, dear friends, 639 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: on Woke a f as always. Power to the people 640 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, Get woke and stay 641 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: woke as fuck.