1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:03,340 Speaker 1: This episode contains content that may be disturbing to some listeners. 2 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Please check the show notes for more information. 3 00:00:28,770 --> 00:00:32,050 Speaker 2: All I ever did was tell the truth. But a 4 00:00:32,090 --> 00:00:37,270 Speaker 2: man who clearly said some outrageous things. Things about the Beatles, 5 00:00:37,390 --> 00:00:42,050 Speaker 2: about Michael Jackson, about Frank Sinatra. Claims that amount to 6 00:00:42,170 --> 00:00:47,430 Speaker 2: musical crimes, fraud, theft, and murder. A man who, despite 7 00:00:47,470 --> 00:00:50,630 Speaker 2: his statements about these musicians, made some of the greatest 8 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:56,690 Speaker 2: music ever put on tape. I'm talking about Quincy Jones. Yes, 9 00:00:56,750 --> 00:01:01,450 Speaker 2: a man who made great music. Unlike that music I 10 00:01:01,490 --> 00:01:03,870 Speaker 2: played for you at the top of the show. That 11 00:01:03,950 --> 00:01:07,449 Speaker 2: wasn't great music. That was a preset loop from my 12 00:01:07,490 --> 00:01:13,970 Speaker 2: Mellotron called After P and Before R M K 1. 13 00:01:13,970 --> 00:01:16,589 Speaker 2: I played you that loop because I can't afford the 14 00:01:16,690 --> 00:01:19,170 Speaker 2: rights to God's Plan by Drake. 15 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:21,500 Speaker 1: And why would I play you. 16 00:01:21,420 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: That specific slice of I'm sorry, I find Drake to 17 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: be so damn boring that I can't even find an 18 00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: interesting way to insult him. 19 00:01:29,420 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: Cheese, could I afford it? 20 00:01:31,990 --> 00:01:35,170 Speaker 2: Because that was the number one song in America on 21 00:01:35,270 --> 00:01:40,610 Speaker 2: January 29th, 2018. And that was the day Quincy Jones 22 00:01:40,730 --> 00:01:44,950 Speaker 2: started talking to reporters at his advanced age and making 23 00:01:45,110 --> 00:01:48,110 Speaker 2: outrageous claims nobody asked. 24 00:01:47,990 --> 00:01:54,110 Speaker 1: For, but that nearly everybody wanted to hear. On this episode, The. 25 00:01:54,070 --> 00:01:59,660 Speaker 2: Beatles as fraudsters, Michael Jackson as a thief, Frank Sinatra's 26 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,460 Speaker 2: front seat at the assassination, and the loose lips and 27 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: unbelievable life of Quincy Jones. 28 00:02:07,660 --> 00:02:11,410 Speaker 1: I'm Jake Brennan, and this is Disgraceland. 29 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:38,619 Speaker 2: During the last years of his life, Quincy Jones, arguably 30 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: the greatest music producer of all time, made some truly 31 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:47,750 Speaker 2: outrageous claims, some involving crimes, musical and otherwise. He said 32 00:02:47,790 --> 00:02:50,830 Speaker 2: that Michael Jackson stole a lot of songs, and that 33 00:02:51,110 --> 00:02:55,130 Speaker 2: the Beatles didn't play their instruments, and that Frank Sinatra 34 00:02:55,169 --> 00:02:59,910 Speaker 2: was the reason that he knew who killed Kennedy. Quincy Jones, 35 00:02:59,930 --> 00:03:03,170 Speaker 2: age 84, when he gave these interviews to GQ and 36 00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:06,530 Speaker 2: New York Magazine, was clearly out of fucks to give. 37 00:03:07,090 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: He also told interviewers that he once dated Ivanka Trump, 38 00:03:11,139 --> 00:03:14,980 Speaker 2: a woman 48 years younger than him, and more outrageously, 39 00:03:15,260 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: the president's daughter. He also spilled the tea about Marlon 40 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,710 Speaker 2: Brando's sexual appetite, that he slept with Richard Pryor and 41 00:03:22,750 --> 00:03:27,030 Speaker 2: Marvin Gaye, and that Brando would quote-unquote fuck a mailbox. 42 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,590 Speaker 2: These claims, regardless of whether they're true or not, are hysterical, 43 00:03:33,650 --> 00:03:37,310 Speaker 2: especially when you hear Quincy, or Q as the world 44 00:03:37,490 --> 00:03:42,270 Speaker 2: universally knows him, tell these stories in his unmistakable voice. 45 00:03:43,170 --> 00:03:46,619 Speaker 2: These stories, though, they're not directly related to figures from 46 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: music history, aside from Q's involvement, so I'm less interested 47 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: in them than I am the claims about Sinatra, The Beatles, 48 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,830 Speaker 2: and Michael Jackson. It should be noted that after Quincy 49 00:03:57,850 --> 00:04:01,230 Speaker 2: Jones made this claim about Michael Jackson that he was 50 00:04:01,250 --> 00:04:04,970 Speaker 2: a musical thief, that the Jackson family pushed back hard. 51 00:04:05,660 --> 00:04:09,020 Speaker 2: Joe Jackson said that Quincy was jealous of Michael's talent, 52 00:04:09,500 --> 00:04:11,980 Speaker 2: and an anonymous member of the Jackson clan claimed that 53 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,740 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones had been in the first stages of dementia 54 00:04:16,020 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: when he said these things. Quincy Jones was a lot 55 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,610 Speaker 2: of things. He lifted himself up from a childhood of 56 00:04:22,690 --> 00:04:24,970 Speaker 2: poverty through an oftentimes violent and. 57 00:04:24,970 --> 00:04:27,830 Speaker 1: Racist music industry to create music. 58 00:04:27,550 --> 00:04:31,110 Speaker 2: That not only sounded like what America really sounded like, 59 00:04:31,370 --> 00:04:34,330 Speaker 2: but that also changed the way America sounded. 60 00:04:34,770 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: More on that later. 61 00:04:36,220 --> 00:04:39,420 Speaker 2: And Quincy Jones became, as I said before, arguably the 62 00:04:39,460 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 2: greatest music producer of all time. A music producer who said, 63 00:04:44,380 --> 00:04:46,420 Speaker 2: all I ever did was tell the truth. 64 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,029 Speaker 1: Was he lying? About Michael? About the Beatles? 65 00:04:50,150 --> 00:04:54,610 Speaker 2: About Sinatra? Well, before we answer that, we must first 66 00:04:54,650 --> 00:05:03,150 Speaker 2: look at who Quincy Jones was. Quincy the Light Jones Jr. 67 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:05,570 Speaker 2: was born on the south side of Chicago, and he 68 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:08,099 Speaker 2: grew up in a neighborhood so violent that it was. 69 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: Known as the Bucket of Blood. 70 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,779 Speaker 2: His family moved to Seattle, where Quincy began his music 71 00:05:13,820 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: career at the age of 12, playing trumpet, and learning 72 00:05:16,820 --> 00:05:20,890 Speaker 2: to write arrangements for jazz orchestras. This is where he 73 00:05:20,950 --> 00:05:26,050 Speaker 2: later met and became friends with 16-year-old Ray Charles, backed 74 00:05:26,170 --> 00:05:30,010 Speaker 2: Billie Holiday while he was still only 14, and talked 75 00:05:30,060 --> 00:05:34,339 Speaker 2: his way into a future gig with bandleader Lionel Hampton. 76 00:05:34,940 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: Quincy then headed to Boston to attend what would become 77 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: Berklee College of Music. But at school, there was no action. 78 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:43,420 Speaker 2: So Quincy Jones. 79 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,430 Speaker 1: Then hit the road with Lionel Hampton. And the road 80 00:05:45,470 --> 00:05:46,330 Speaker 1: was a grind. 81 00:05:46,410 --> 00:05:49,810 Speaker 2: Eventually, Quincy relocated to the Bebop Center of the Universe 82 00:05:49,830 --> 00:05:52,089 Speaker 2: in New York City to try his hand as an 83 00:05:52,130 --> 00:05:56,170 Speaker 2: arranger professionally. And in the Big Apple, his talent took off. 84 00:05:56,230 --> 00:05:59,250 Speaker 2: But the money was slow to come. So Quincy split 85 00:05:59,420 --> 00:06:02,910 Speaker 2: for Hollywood. and his career erupted. It is not a 86 00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:06,290 Speaker 2: stretch to say that Quincy Jones worked with damn near 87 00:06:06,529 --> 00:06:10,180 Speaker 2: everybody in the business during these years. In New York City, 88 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones got down to writing arrangements for Dinah Washington, 89 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: Sarah Vaughan, Dizzy Gillespie, and others. He performed live on 90 00:06:16,180 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: television as part of the Dorsey Brothers band when they 91 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: backed Elvis Presley in his first television performance. In 1958, 92 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,380 Speaker 2: he flew to Monaco with Frank Sinatra to conduct Frank's 93 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,260 Speaker 2: orchestra for Princess Grace. In 1961, Quincy Jones was hired 94 00:06:29,310 --> 00:06:32,490 Speaker 2: by Mercury Records as the first black vice president of 95 00:06:32,510 --> 00:06:35,030 Speaker 2: a record label. For Mercury, he wrote and produced a 96 00:06:35,130 --> 00:06:39,740 Speaker 2: smash number one hit, Leslie Gore's It's My Party. In 1964, 97 00:06:39,740 --> 00:06:42,580 Speaker 2: Sidney Lumet hired Quincy to score a major motion picture, 98 00:06:42,860 --> 00:06:46,260 Speaker 2: The Pawnbroker. This led to director Richard Brooks asking Quincy 99 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,390 Speaker 2: Jones to score the film adaptation of Truman Capote's smash 100 00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:50,670 Speaker 2: hit True Crime Story, It's My Party. 101 00:06:50,930 --> 00:06:53,650 Speaker 1: In cold blood, Truman told Richard Brooks. 102 00:06:53,790 --> 00:06:57,130 Speaker 2: Richard, I don't understand why you've got a Negro doing 103 00:06:57,170 --> 00:07:00,190 Speaker 2: the music for a film with no people of color 104 00:07:00,290 --> 00:07:00,540 Speaker 2: in it. 105 00:07:01,150 --> 00:07:04,570 Speaker 1: Richard Brooks told Truman Capote to fuck off. Q was 106 00:07:04,630 --> 00:07:05,549 Speaker 1: scoring his film. 107 00:07:05,830 --> 00:07:09,010 Speaker 2: Q did just that, and Quincy Jones received his first 108 00:07:09,089 --> 00:07:12,870 Speaker 2: Academy Award nomination. He was later nominated for either Best 109 00:07:12,910 --> 00:07:15,610 Speaker 2: Score or Best Song for several films, including The Wiz, 110 00:07:15,650 --> 00:07:18,460 Speaker 2: The Color Purple, and would eventually take home honorary Oscars 111 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,980 Speaker 2: for his humanitarian efforts and his lifetime contribution to cinema. 112 00:07:22,340 --> 00:07:25,420 Speaker 2: On top of those two Oscars, Quincy Jones earned 28 Grammys, 113 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: one Emmy, and one Tony. 114 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:29,580 Speaker 1: He's on a short list of EGOT winners that include 115 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:33,820 Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg, Elton John, and Rita Moreno. Quincy Jones worked 116 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: twice as hard as other composers. 117 00:07:36,230 --> 00:07:40,050 Speaker 2: Most composers, most white composers, scored one film a year. 118 00:07:40,330 --> 00:07:43,790 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones was black. Quincy Jones had something to prove. 119 00:07:44,030 --> 00:07:46,050 Speaker 2: He didn't score one film a year. He at least 120 00:07:46,110 --> 00:07:50,090 Speaker 2: scored two, sometimes three. He once scored eight films in 121 00:07:50,350 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: one year. Throughout the 60s and 70s, he worked again 122 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,500 Speaker 2: with Sinatra, composed TV series themes for his buddies Redd 123 00:07:56,540 --> 00:07:59,220 Speaker 2: Foxx and Bill Cosby, wrote and produced a song called 124 00:07:59,340 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: Soul Bossa Nova that you recognize from Austin Powers. But 125 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: it wasn't just glitzy Hollywood fun and games, not by 126 00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:11,250 Speaker 2: a long shot. Quincy Jones collaborated with creative giants, Portier, Peckinpah, 127 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,970 Speaker 2: and most notably from 1979 to 1987, his production work 128 00:08:16,050 --> 00:08:17,470 Speaker 2: helped crown the king. 129 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:19,050 Speaker 1: Of pop, Michael Jackson. 130 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: In the 60s, he was active in the civil rights 131 00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:23,540 Speaker 2: movement in support of Martin Luther King Jr. 132 00:08:23,620 --> 00:08:25,430 Speaker 1: And then alongside Jesse Jackson. 133 00:08:25,490 --> 00:08:28,050 Speaker 2: Later, he teamed with Bono to launch the Just Listen 134 00:08:28,190 --> 00:08:32,010 Speaker 2: Up Foundation to build houses in South Africa and tirelessly 135 00:08:32,110 --> 00:08:36,270 Speaker 2: advocated in support of the arts to President Barack Obama. Oh, 136 00:08:36,630 --> 00:08:40,380 Speaker 2: and he also married Norma from Twin Peaks, actress Peggy Lipton. 137 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 2: And Quincy was Rashida Jones's dad. You know her as 138 00:08:43,380 --> 00:08:46,500 Speaker 2: Karen from The Office. And he was Tupac's ex, Kadeda 139 00:08:46,540 --> 00:08:49,740 Speaker 2: Jones's father, too. But what does any of this have 140 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 2: to do with Quincy Jones and his claims that Michael 141 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 2: Jackson was a thief, that the Beatles were frauds, that 142 00:08:56,040 --> 00:09:03,470 Speaker 2: Sinatra was the key to understanding who murdered Kennedy? Well, 143 00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:08,070 Speaker 2: with that incredible career, Quincy Jones was rewarded special access. 144 00:09:08,130 --> 00:09:11,990 Speaker 2: And perhaps because of that special access, Quincy gained special insight, 145 00:09:12,030 --> 00:09:15,950 Speaker 2: special insight to claim, as he did confidently, that he 146 00:09:16,030 --> 00:09:19,650 Speaker 2: knew who killed Kennedy, and to insinuate that this knowledge 147 00:09:19,710 --> 00:09:24,170 Speaker 2: came from his relationship with Frank Sinatra. So let's look 148 00:09:24,270 --> 00:09:27,990 Speaker 2: further into whether or not Quincy Jones was telling the truth. 149 00:09:28,790 --> 00:09:38,110 Speaker 2: Let's first look into the crime of murder. Long before 150 00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:41,069 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones wanted to be a musician, he wanted to 151 00:09:41,110 --> 00:09:44,660 Speaker 2: be a gangster. The Bucket of Blood neighborhood on the 152 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,939 Speaker 2: south side of Chicago, where he grew up in the 1930s, 153 00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:53,870 Speaker 2: was controlled by criminals and crooked cops. It was unsafe, uninspiring, 154 00:09:54,290 --> 00:09:56,500 Speaker 2: and no place for a young boy to grow up. 155 00:09:57,470 --> 00:10:02,530 Speaker 2: Black gangsters, the Jones Boys, no relationship. ran this black neighborhood. 156 00:10:02,580 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: They robbed, stole, fought, and killed brazenly. Young Quincy Jones 157 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 2: and his friends watched it all from the urine-stained sidewalks, 158 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,660 Speaker 2: and they saw black men in pinstripe suits stalking the 159 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,500 Speaker 2: streets with tommy guns, and the men who crossed them 160 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: meet their makers. One morning, while on the way to 161 00:10:19,870 --> 00:10:23,790 Speaker 2: elementary school, Quincy saw a man's body impaled on the 162 00:10:24,050 --> 00:10:27,190 Speaker 2: iron rung of a telephone pole with an ice pick 163 00:10:27,530 --> 00:10:32,890 Speaker 2: jammed into his neck. Aside from the racist cops who 164 00:10:32,929 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 2: patrolled his neighborhood, like the notorious two-gun Pete officer who 165 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,660 Speaker 2: made his living shooting little black kids in the back 166 00:10:39,940 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: with his twin revolvers, the gangsters were the only role 167 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: models that Quincy Jones had at that young age. And 168 00:10:48,220 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: as he recalls it, back in the 30s, with what 169 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,220 Speaker 2: limited exposure he had beyond the violent corner of the 170 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 2: world where he grew up, aside from his hardworking handyman father, 171 00:10:59,020 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: there literally were no black men for him to look 172 00:11:02,260 --> 00:11:05,710 Speaker 2: up to. That all changed when Quincy Jones and his 173 00:11:05,770 --> 00:11:09,090 Speaker 2: family moved to Seattle when he was 10 and shortly 174 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: afterward found music. In 1943, Quincy Jones' family relocated to Seattle, 175 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,210 Speaker 2: and it was there that he took up trumpet. As 176 00:11:23,250 --> 00:11:27,410 Speaker 2: a young teenager, Quincy immersed himself in Seattle's jazz nightlife 177 00:11:27,450 --> 00:11:31,010 Speaker 2: and taught himself how to arrange music. After high school, 178 00:11:31,030 --> 00:11:33,990 Speaker 2: he headed east to Boston and then to Manhattan. But 179 00:11:34,030 --> 00:11:38,270 Speaker 2: even while learning from bebop giants, Quincy wanted more, so 180 00:11:38,770 --> 00:11:41,579 Speaker 2: he headed to Paris to study with arguably the most 181 00:11:41,660 --> 00:11:46,670 Speaker 2: important musical educator of the 20th century, Nathalie Boulanger. the 182 00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:50,290 Speaker 2: woman who taught Igor Stravinsky. He then booked work as 183 00:11:50,330 --> 00:11:52,530 Speaker 2: a performer, which took him to the Middle East and 184 00:11:52,590 --> 00:11:55,290 Speaker 2: South America, and eventually all over Europe. 185 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: As a band leader. 186 00:11:56,860 --> 00:12:00,479 Speaker 2: All of this experience turned Quincy Jones into a genius 187 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,540 Speaker 2: arranger and opened doors for him in Hollywood to score films. 188 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,479 Speaker 2: Those doors wouldn't stay open on their own, however. Quincy 189 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,310 Speaker 2: Jones would have to use every ounce of his creative 190 00:12:11,410 --> 00:12:20,470 Speaker 2: genius to keep them that way. Earlier in this story, 191 00:12:20,650 --> 00:12:25,189 Speaker 2: I mentioned that Quincy Jones changed the way America sounded. 192 00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:26,589 Speaker 1: This is what I meant. 193 00:12:27,710 --> 00:12:32,740 Speaker 2: Before Quincy Jones started scoring films, major motion pictures had 194 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: been scored almost exclusively by white men. Orchestral film scores 195 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,740 Speaker 2: prior to Quincy Jones were by. 196 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,670 Speaker 1: Design aspirational sounding. 197 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:46,590 Speaker 2: In other words, Film scores prior to Quincy Jones sounded 198 00:12:46,630 --> 00:12:50,870 Speaker 2: like a romanticized version of what America actually looked and 199 00:12:50,950 --> 00:12:54,739 Speaker 2: felt like. Quincy Jones was the first film composer to 200 00:12:54,820 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: introduce rhythm and blues into motion picture scoring, and thus 201 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,490 Speaker 2: the first composer to implement truth into the sound of movies. 202 00:13:03,390 --> 00:13:04,110 Speaker 1: R & B. 203 00:13:03,790 --> 00:13:08,580 Speaker 2: Music in the mid-60s represented what America actually sounded like. 204 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,670 Speaker 2: Motown ruled the charts alongside the Beatles, who were heavily 205 00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:16,050 Speaker 2: influenced by rhythm and blues, as was Elvis Presley and 206 00:13:16,090 --> 00:13:16,829 Speaker 2: the rest. 207 00:13:16,590 --> 00:13:18,510 Speaker 1: Of the rock and rollers, white and black. 208 00:13:19,380 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: If you drove through an American city in 1966 with 209 00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: the windows down and the radio on, you'd primarily hear 210 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 2: R & B or R & B- influenced music. But if 211 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 2: you went to the movies, the music you'd hear accompanying 212 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,980 Speaker 2: the story up on the screen would be orchestral, romantic, aspirational, 213 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: more akin to classical music than the reality happening out 214 00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:45,530 Speaker 2: on the streets. Quincy Jones changed what America sounded like. 215 00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:50,339 Speaker 2: by infusing his orchestral scores with R & B influences. 216 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: And for the first time in the history of movies, 217 00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:56,500 Speaker 2: the sound of the story sounded like what life for 218 00:13:56,540 --> 00:14:01,420 Speaker 2: most Americans actually felt like. America at its most violent 219 00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:05,390 Speaker 2: with Quincy's score for In Cold Blood, its most racist 220 00:14:05,710 --> 00:14:07,790 Speaker 2: with Quincy's score for In the Heat of the Night, 221 00:14:08,450 --> 00:14:11,250 Speaker 2: at its most absurd with Bob and Carol and Ted 222 00:14:11,309 --> 00:14:15,189 Speaker 2: and Alice, and later on television, at its most comical, 223 00:14:15,470 --> 00:14:19,990 Speaker 2: with Quincy's theme for Sanford and Son. Quincy Jones made 224 00:14:20,050 --> 00:14:23,310 Speaker 2: movies sound the way that America felt at the time. 225 00:14:23,890 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 2: It's a technique that most every notable composer after Quincy 226 00:14:27,270 --> 00:14:33,580 Speaker 2: Jones has utilized, deploying reality over aspiration in film composition, 227 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,820 Speaker 2: and by extension, creating a permanent record for future generations 228 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 2: to roll back the tape to hear what America really 229 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:46,210 Speaker 2: sounded like. The success of Quincy Jones' career as a 230 00:14:46,290 --> 00:14:51,420 Speaker 2: film scorer and arranger led to incredible opportunities, most notably 231 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,060 Speaker 2: for the purposes of this story, to his collaboration with 232 00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:59,710 Speaker 2: the man who would become the greatest Italian-American entertainer of 233 00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:11,860 Speaker 2: all time, Francis Albert Sinatra. Quincy Jones didn't know exactly 234 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: who the two large Italian men were who were escorting 235 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,860 Speaker 2: him through the Sands Casino. These were Frank's guys, or 236 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: more specifically, they were body men. Muscle that Frank Sinatra 237 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,780 Speaker 2: had hired out from the boys back in Chicago. Sam Giancana, 238 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,180 Speaker 2: one of America's most powerful mafia bosses, had a covert 239 00:15:33,260 --> 00:15:38,180 Speaker 2: financial interest in the Sands Hotel and Casino. Giancana ran 240 00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:41,090 Speaker 2: the skim off the Sands for the mob in a 241 00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:45,870 Speaker 2: legal cash windfall that brought in millions. But Quincy Jones 242 00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:49,290 Speaker 2: didn't know anything about that at the time. All he 243 00:15:49,370 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: knew was that his new best friend, Frank Sinatra, was 244 00:15:52,930 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: part owner of the Sands Hotel and Casino, and that 245 00:15:56,100 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: he and Frank were in town with Count Basie to 246 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,540 Speaker 2: cut a live album with Quincy conducting Basie's orchestra through 247 00:16:03,580 --> 00:16:05,750 Speaker 2: an entire set of tunes he'd arranged. 248 00:16:06,610 --> 00:16:08,630 Speaker 1: As Frank would say, cuckoo. 249 00:16:09,630 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 2: But this was the mid-60s, and Las Vegas was hostile 250 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: to Blacks, even if their names were up there on 251 00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: the marquee with Frank Sinatra's. Blacks still had to eat 252 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: in the casino kitchens with the help. And it didn't 253 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: matter if you were Sammy Davis Jr. himself or Harry 254 00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 2: Belafonte or Lena Horne. You weren't staying in the casino hotels. 255 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,650 Speaker 2: You were staying in the Black hotels across the tracks. 256 00:16:34,810 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: But Frank Sinatra... wasn't having it. Frank hired a mob-connected 257 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 2: bodyguard for each member of Basie's 18-piece orchestra, including, of course, 258 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,550 Speaker 2: the Count himself and Q. He then assembled Giancana's muscle 259 00:16:48,570 --> 00:16:50,750 Speaker 2: and told him that if anybody even looks funny in 260 00:16:50,770 --> 00:16:53,650 Speaker 2: any member of this band, break both of their fucking legs. 261 00:16:54,830 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: Giancana's guys would see to it that if any of 262 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,050 Speaker 2: the racist locals got lippy or tough, They'd get sorted 263 00:17:01,110 --> 00:17:05,070 Speaker 2: out Vegas-style, meaning out in the desert, shot in the mouth, 264 00:17:05,470 --> 00:17:07,340 Speaker 2: and left to rot in shallow graves. 265 00:17:08,390 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: Needless to say, this did not happen. 266 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: And so, Quincy Jones and Count Basie and all the 267 00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 2: members of the Basie Orchestra. 268 00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: Had their run of Vegas. 269 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,700 Speaker 2: The result was one of the greatest live albums of 270 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: all time, Sinatra at the Sands with Count Basie and 271 00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:31,379 Speaker 2: the orchestra, arranged and conducted by Quincy Jones. an album 272 00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: that was made possible in part due to Frank Sinatra's 273 00:17:34,859 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: connection to the mafia, an organization Quincy Jones would later 274 00:17:38,780 --> 00:18:12,190 Speaker 2: insinuate was responsible for the killing of President John F. Kennedy. So, 275 00:18:12,790 --> 00:18:16,750 Speaker 2: did Quincy Jones' relationship with Frank Sinatra burden him with 276 00:18:16,790 --> 00:18:20,990 Speaker 2: the knowledge of who killed JFK? Before we can answer that, 277 00:18:21,410 --> 00:18:23,970 Speaker 2: we have to look into another claim by Mr. Jones, 278 00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:29,500 Speaker 2: this one concerning the crime of artistic theft. Did Michael Jackson, 279 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,189 Speaker 2: who was without a doubt an otherworldly talent, and who 280 00:18:33,250 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones worked with on all three of his seminal 281 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 2: albums as producer, Off the Wall, Thriller, and Bad, did 282 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: Michael Jackson steal, quote-unquote, a lot of songs? 283 00:18:45,060 --> 00:18:51,550 Speaker 1: Well, let's find out. The muse comes. 284 00:18:51,410 --> 00:18:55,830 Speaker 2: Differently to different artists at different times. Sometimes she smacks 285 00:18:55,869 --> 00:18:58,649 Speaker 2: you in the face. Sometimes she just nods in a 286 00:18:58,690 --> 00:19:02,180 Speaker 2: certain direction. Other times she shakes you by the shoulders. 287 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: Inspiration gets expressed both directly and indirectly. Most artists are 288 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,140 Speaker 2: careful not to think about it too much. They take 289 00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: it as it comes, like George Harrison, who didn't question 290 00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:17,010 Speaker 2: the melody for My Sweet Lord until it was pointed 291 00:19:17,050 --> 00:19:20,010 Speaker 2: out to him in court that his melody sounded exactly 292 00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:21,730 Speaker 2: like He's So Fine. 293 00:19:21,369 --> 00:19:23,430 Speaker 1: By the Chiffons. 294 00:19:23,470 --> 00:19:26,409 Speaker 2: In 1981, George was forced to pay a settlement of 295 00:19:26,470 --> 00:19:31,490 Speaker 2: more than half a million dollars for subconscious plagiarism. And 296 00:19:31,530 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 2: then there's the story of George's ex-bandmate, John Lennon, who sang, John, 297 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,530 Speaker 2: cheeky bastard that he was, was nodding to his hero, 298 00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 2: Chuck Berry, and his song, You Can't Catch Me. 299 00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:50,620 Speaker 1: But Morris Levy didn't care. 300 00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: About artistic nods or the muse. And Morris owned the 301 00:19:54,380 --> 00:19:57,220 Speaker 2: publishing rights to Chuck Berry's song. And he threatened to 302 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: bring John Lennon to court, claiming that he was owed royalties. 303 00:20:01,430 --> 00:20:05,090 Speaker 2: John agreed to record three songs from Levy's publishing catalog 304 00:20:05,470 --> 00:20:10,310 Speaker 2: and was ultimately forced to pay Levy $ 1, 000. nearly $ 700, 000 305 00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:13,909 Speaker 2: in damages. Now, a lot has been said about these cases. 306 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:15,139 Speaker 1: One thing that I. 307 00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:19,340 Speaker 2: Always say is that great musicians are criminals. Now, Steve 308 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:25,740 Speaker 2: Jobs has said something else. He said, Steve thought that 309 00:20:25,780 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: he was appropriating that line from Pablo Picasso, but Steve 310 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:29,820 Speaker 2: was wrong. 311 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: Picasso never said that. 312 00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:32,419 Speaker 2: T.S. 313 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: Eliot said something similar. 314 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:39,020 Speaker 2: He said, To imitate was shoddy, and to steal was praiseworthy. 315 00:20:39,770 --> 00:20:43,270 Speaker 2: So let's praise old TS for nicking this phrase from 316 00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:47,189 Speaker 2: Alfred Tennyson, who said that great poets imitate and improve, 317 00:20:47,609 --> 00:20:48,930 Speaker 2: whereas small. 318 00:20:48,690 --> 00:20:50,490 Speaker 1: Ones steal and spoil. 319 00:20:51,580 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 2: Another way of putting all this is immature artists blatantly steal, 320 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:59,300 Speaker 2: while mature artists are more skilled at hiding their theft. 321 00:21:00,090 --> 00:21:01,790 Speaker 1: To me, this sounds too cynical. 322 00:21:01,850 --> 00:21:05,930 Speaker 2: To me, a great artist like John Lennon works pieces 323 00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:09,430 Speaker 2: that inspire them into the whole of their own creation 324 00:21:09,470 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: in ways that render the original inspiration barely recognizable anymore. 325 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: Now back to Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones claimed that John 326 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: Coltrane's masterpiece, Giant Steps, was stolen from Nicholas Sleminski's book 327 00:21:22,940 --> 00:21:24,100 Speaker 2: on 12-tone theory. 328 00:21:24,619 --> 00:21:27,389 Speaker 1: It probably was, but you wouldn't recognize it. 329 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:32,270 Speaker 2: What you might recognize immediately is Michael Jackson's Mamase Mamasa 330 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,100 Speaker 2: Mamafusa melody from his 1982 hit, Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'. Now, 331 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: that's a direct rip from the Cameroonian songwriter and trumpeter 332 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 2: Manu Dibango's 1972 composition, Sol Macosa. 333 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,810 Speaker 1: Michael thought, I guess, that, He could steal that melody 334 00:21:49,869 --> 00:21:54,470 Speaker 1: and no one would notice. But unlike Coltrane's subterfuge, MJ's, 335 00:21:54,820 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: his theft is blatant. Brazen, actually. So, DeBango sued Michael Jackson. 336 00:22:01,380 --> 00:22:03,659 Speaker 2: He settled out of court for a million dollars and 337 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,490 Speaker 2: no claim on future royalties. But that's not the song 338 00:22:07,550 --> 00:22:11,930 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones name-checked when he claimed that Michael Jackson stole 339 00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:21,699 Speaker 2: a lot of songs. The song Quincy Jones name-checked as 340 00:22:21,740 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 2: an example of Michael Jackson being a creative thief is 341 00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:29,060 Speaker 2: Donna Summer's State of Independence, which has a bass line 342 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,590 Speaker 2: that turns up again in Michael's Billie Jean. As Quincy said, 343 00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:38,230 Speaker 2: the notes don't lie, man. Now, if the Billie Jean 344 00:22:38,270 --> 00:22:42,010 Speaker 2: bass line is stolen from State of Independence, it's not 345 00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:46,510 Speaker 2: immediately recognizable. The tempo of the song is radically different. 346 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,580 Speaker 2: and the feel of State of Independence is more reggae 347 00:22:49,980 --> 00:22:54,740 Speaker 2: than it is disco-influenced pop. This one isn't as blatant 348 00:22:54,990 --> 00:22:58,510 Speaker 2: as Michael's theft in Wannabe Startin' Somethin'. In fact, I 349 00:22:58,550 --> 00:23:01,770 Speaker 2: can barely hear it, and Donna Summer never sued Michael Jackson. 350 00:23:02,410 --> 00:23:02,909 Speaker 1: This is an. 351 00:23:02,910 --> 00:23:06,730 Speaker 2: Example of the artist working his inspiration into the whole 352 00:23:06,770 --> 00:23:10,740 Speaker 2: of his work rather than being as Machiavellian as they come, 353 00:23:11,260 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 2: as Quincy Jones said about Michael Jackson. A better example 354 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,699 Speaker 2: of Michael Jackson being Machiavellian would be his stealing the 355 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 2: ownership of the Beatles' catalog out from under Michael's good 356 00:23:21,820 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: friend at the time, Paul McCartney. And Quincy Jones, in 357 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,350 Speaker 2: those wild interviews toward the end of his life, had 358 00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:30,070 Speaker 2: some choice words. 359 00:23:29,810 --> 00:23:30,990 Speaker 1: For the Beatles' bassist. 360 00:23:31,609 --> 00:23:35,790 Speaker 2: Specifically, that when it came to playing his instrument, Paul McCartney, 361 00:23:35,970 --> 00:23:40,630 Speaker 2: just like George, John, and Ringo, was a no-playing motherfucker. 362 00:23:46,220 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this word, word, word. 363 00:23:57,020 --> 00:24:01,030 Speaker 2: We now have two unanswered questions, sort of. Was Frank 364 00:24:01,050 --> 00:24:05,790 Speaker 2: Sinatra the key to Q knowing exactly who killed President Kennedy? 365 00:24:06,330 --> 00:24:10,270 Speaker 2: And was Michael Jackson a creative thief who, as Quincy 366 00:24:10,290 --> 00:24:13,729 Speaker 2: Jones said, stole a lot of songs? Before we can 367 00:24:13,790 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: answer these questions one way or another, We have one 368 00:24:16,690 --> 00:24:20,459 Speaker 2: final batshit crazy Quincy Jones claimed to investigate. And this 369 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,780 Speaker 2: one involves the musical crime of fraud. In 2018, Quincy 370 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,340 Speaker 2: Jones told New York Magazine that his first impression of 371 00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:33,020 Speaker 2: the Beatles was that they were no playing motherfuckers and 372 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,300 Speaker 2: that Paul McCartney was the worst bass player I have 373 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,420 Speaker 2: ever heard. Q then went on to detail his experience 374 00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:46,790 Speaker 2: with Ringo Starr in the studio. In 1970, Quincy Jones 375 00:24:46,810 --> 00:24:50,810 Speaker 2: was hired by his friend, the longtime Beatles producer George Martin, 376 00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:55,090 Speaker 2: to arrange a song for Ringo's solo debut album, Sentimental Journey. 377 00:24:55,970 --> 00:25:00,090 Speaker 2: In the studio, as Quincy recalled, Ringo struggled to nail 378 00:25:00,109 --> 00:25:04,450 Speaker 2: a simple four-bar drum part. After three hours of laboring 379 00:25:04,490 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 2: away at this part with no luck, Ringo was encouraged. 380 00:25:07,619 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: To take a break. 381 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,660 Speaker 2: He split from the studio to go grab a beer. 382 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 2: As Q's story goes, in Ringo's absence, Quincy and George 383 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,420 Speaker 2: Martin brought in ace jazz drummer Ronnie Varel to have 384 00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:23,460 Speaker 2: a go at what Ringo couldn't play. In Quincy's words, 385 00:25:23,859 --> 00:25:27,899 Speaker 2: Ronnie tore it up and finished Ringo's drum part in 386 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: 15 minutes. Ringo returned from the pub a few hours later, 387 00:25:32,270 --> 00:25:34,869 Speaker 2: listened to the drum part that Ronnie had played without 388 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,670 Speaker 2: knowing Ronnie had been in the studio and said, that 389 00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:41,370 Speaker 2: didn't sound so bad. To which Quincy thought, yeah, motherfucker, 390 00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:46,919 Speaker 2: because it ain't you. This experience obviously informed Quincy Jones' 391 00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:50,859 Speaker 2: opinion of Ringo Starr as a musician. But what proof 392 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,790 Speaker 2: did Quincy Jones offer about his claim that Paul McCartney 393 00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:59,409 Speaker 2: was the worst bass player I'd ever heard? None. And 394 00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:03,899 Speaker 2: this is, of course, an absurd statement. Paul McCartney is 395 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,179 Speaker 2: not only a great bass player. He's one of the 396 00:26:06,260 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: greatest musicians and composers of all time. A giant worthy 397 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:13,340 Speaker 2: of being mentioned in the same breath with the biggest 398 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,090 Speaker 2: and best to ever do it. Mozart, Michael Jackson, and yes, 399 00:26:17,550 --> 00:26:23,230 Speaker 2: even Quincy Jones. So what was it that informed Quincy Jones' 400 00:26:23,390 --> 00:26:32,590 Speaker 2: opinion that the Beatles were no playing motherfuckers? Quincy Jones 401 00:26:32,890 --> 00:26:36,830 Speaker 2: likely first saw the Beatles perform in early 1964, along 402 00:26:36,890 --> 00:26:39,530 Speaker 2: with the rest of America, when the Beatles invaded the 403 00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:42,690 Speaker 2: States with their arsenal of early hits, I Want to 404 00:26:42,750 --> 00:26:44,010 Speaker 2: Hold Your Hand and. 405 00:26:43,970 --> 00:26:48,470 Speaker 1: She Loves You, among them. These tunes were excellent pop songs. 406 00:26:48,490 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 2: The recordings of which were carefully crafted in the studio 407 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 2: by classically trained producer George Martin. Part of Martin's genius 408 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 2: was that he allowed the Fab Four to retain their 409 00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: performance imperfections on tape. In I Want to Hold Your Hand, 410 00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 2: there are numerous points where John and Paul flub the lyrics. 411 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 2: In Hold Me Tight, George Harrison strains to reach a 412 00:27:10,660 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: high note in the harmony vocal, and the result is 413 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: less than harmonious. In 1965's Ticket to Ride, Ringo heads 414 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,719 Speaker 2: into the second verse playing a completely different beat than he. 415 00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:21,580 Speaker 1: Was in the first. 416 00:27:21,980 --> 00:27:24,770 Speaker 2: In I'm Looking Through You, drum hits are missed, and 417 00:27:24,790 --> 00:27:27,469 Speaker 2: there are points where the guitars slip out of tune. 418 00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:31,429 Speaker 2: To George Martin, fixing these mistakes in the studio would 419 00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 2: have sacrificed the infectious energy captured on tape. 420 00:27:35,460 --> 00:27:39,580 Speaker 1: But to seasoned jazz musicians, this move was heresy. 421 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,350 Speaker 2: Jazz players reasoned that you needn't sacrifice playing for energy 422 00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:46,190 Speaker 2: because as a musician, it was your duty to perform 423 00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:50,149 Speaker 2: the songs perfectly and with the correct energy. But this 424 00:27:50,710 --> 00:27:59,650 Speaker 2: is like comparing apples to carburetors. The Beatles' energy was 425 00:27:59,750 --> 00:28:03,620 Speaker 2: born from endless hours spent woodshedding their playing in front 426 00:28:03,630 --> 00:28:08,580 Speaker 2: of violent and rowdy crowds, mainly soldiers and prostitutes at 427 00:28:08,619 --> 00:28:12,419 Speaker 2: the Star Club in Hamburg's Rieperbahn district. The only way 428 00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:15,060 Speaker 2: for the band to make it through their Star Club shows, 429 00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:18,980 Speaker 2: sets that were sometimes six, eight, even ten hours long, 430 00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:24,140 Speaker 2: was with levity. Levity led to drunkenness and, yes, imperfection. 431 00:28:24,970 --> 00:28:27,830 Speaker 2: The result of this performance reality was a band that 432 00:28:27,850 --> 00:28:32,970 Speaker 2: could not only play, but a band that had serious charisma, energy, 433 00:28:33,530 --> 00:28:36,430 Speaker 2: that George Martin was keen to get down on tape, 434 00:28:37,050 --> 00:28:39,790 Speaker 2: even if it meant sacrificing some of the perfection of 435 00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:45,430 Speaker 2: the band's recorded performances. To seasoned jazz musicians, it all 436 00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:50,030 Speaker 2: amounted to a level of unseriousness. a style of musicianship 437 00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:53,530 Speaker 2: that would never fly in the Manhattan bebop clubs Quincy 438 00:28:53,570 --> 00:28:58,010 Speaker 2: Jones and his contemporaries came up in. With their flubbed notes, 439 00:28:58,410 --> 00:29:03,100 Speaker 2: missed drum hits, forgotten lyrics, and out-of-tune guitars, it's easy 440 00:29:03,140 --> 00:29:07,940 Speaker 2: to understand how a jazz musician, specifically a master of bebop, 441 00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:10,100 Speaker 2: would refer to the Beatles. 442 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: As no-playing motherfuckers. 443 00:29:18,660 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: Okay, so what exactly does a no-playing motherfucker or non-playing 444 00:29:24,820 --> 00:29:29,690 Speaker 2: motherfucker mean? Well, in jazz speak, it's a specific type 445 00:29:29,830 --> 00:29:33,690 Speaker 2: of contempt reserved not only for musicians who aren't skilled 446 00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:37,890 Speaker 2: enough technically or who lack feel or authenticity in their playing, 447 00:29:38,590 --> 00:29:41,350 Speaker 2: but is also meant to call out musicians whose playing 448 00:29:41,390 --> 00:29:46,050 Speaker 2: does not warrant their commercial success. As Miles Davis said 449 00:29:46,090 --> 00:29:49,750 Speaker 2: in his autobiography about Steve Miller, I was pissed because 450 00:29:49,770 --> 00:29:52,670 Speaker 2: I got to open for this non-playing motherfucker just because 451 00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:54,970 Speaker 2: he had one or two sorry-ass records out. 452 00:29:55,890 --> 00:29:59,590 Speaker 1: I love Miles, but that was back in 1970. 453 00:29:59,590 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: This is 2026 as I record this, and the phrase 454 00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: is back in the lexicon of popular music with the 455 00:30:05,820 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: release of Red Hot Chili Peppers bassist Flea's solo jazz. 456 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: Album, The Excellent Honora. 457 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,830 Speaker 2: Now, in the lead up to the album's release, Flea 458 00:30:15,850 --> 00:30:19,010 Speaker 2: went on record about the imposter syndrome that he felt 459 00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:22,590 Speaker 2: as a rock musician, venturing into jazz with an album 460 00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:25,830 Speaker 2: he plays trumpet on, alongside some of the best modern 461 00:30:25,870 --> 00:30:27,110 Speaker 2: jazz musicians. 462 00:30:27,140 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: On the planet. 463 00:30:28,580 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 2: Flea said he worried that the band he'd put together 464 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:35,450 Speaker 2: would see him, Mr. Uplift Mofo Party Plan, as, quote, 465 00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:41,510 Speaker 2: a non-playing motherfucker. Is Flea, to use Miles and Quincy's phrase, 466 00:30:41,530 --> 00:30:43,490 Speaker 2: a non-playing motherfucker? 467 00:30:44,170 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Were the Beatles? Hell no. But 468 00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:49,260 Speaker 1: was Quincy. 469 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 2: Jones on to something bigger with his comments about the Beatles? 470 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,260 Speaker 2: Were they worse than no-playing motherfuckers? 471 00:30:56,020 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: Were they frauds? 472 00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 2: In 2004, Bernard Purdy, one of the greatest session drummers 473 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 2: of all time, a musician who kept time for some 474 00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 2: of the greatest of all time, James Brown, Aretha Franklin, 475 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,810 Speaker 2: Hall & Oates, Steely Dan, B.B. King, Al Green, and 476 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:21,310 Speaker 2: so many more, including recent recordings with Wolfpack, Bernard Purdy said, quote, 477 00:31:21,810 --> 00:31:23,410 Speaker 2: There are four drummers. 478 00:31:23,070 --> 00:31:26,150 Speaker 1: On the Beatles' music. Ringo's not one of them. 479 00:31:32,060 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: At various times throughout the course of his life, Bernard 480 00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:38,390 Speaker 2: Purdy elaborated on his claim that the Beatles were frauds. 481 00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:40,990 Speaker 2: He took it further by claiming that in the summer 482 00:31:41,010 --> 00:31:44,790 Speaker 2: of 1963, before the Beatles broke in America in early 1964, 483 00:31:44,790 --> 00:31:50,370 Speaker 2: that Beatles manager Brian Epstein paid Purdy five figures to 484 00:31:50,410 --> 00:31:53,770 Speaker 2: play drums on 21 tracks on the first three Beatles 485 00:31:53,930 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: albums prior to their release. Hold up. If this isn't 486 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: the definition of no playing motherfucker, then I don't know 487 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: what is. Bernard Purdy is claiming Ringo literally did not 488 00:32:07,460 --> 00:32:11,060 Speaker 2: play drums on a large percentage of Beatles songs on 489 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 2: their early albums. 490 00:32:12,940 --> 00:32:13,660 Speaker 1: But is it true? 491 00:32:14,740 --> 00:32:18,460 Speaker 2: Nobody from the Beatles has ever commented on Purdy's claims. 492 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,420 Speaker 2: There's been no denial, which I find curious. However, there's 493 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,710 Speaker 2: also no record of Brian Epstein being in America prior 494 00:32:25,770 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: to November 1963. But just because there's no record of 495 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 2: him being here doesn't mean that he didn't make the trip. 496 00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:34,650 Speaker 2: If I were about to pay one of the best 497 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:38,290 Speaker 2: drummers on the planet to surreptitiously replace the drummer's tracks, 498 00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:41,459 Speaker 2: the drummer in the band that I represented, get him 499 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,660 Speaker 2: to do all that subterfuge so that we could trick 500 00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:46,540 Speaker 2: the record-buying public into thinking he was a better drummer, well, 501 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 2: I wouldn't actually make a record of my trip. 502 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,070 Speaker 1: But still, this doesn't prove anything. 503 00:32:54,030 --> 00:32:57,250 Speaker 2: What I think happened is that Bernard Purdy was hired 504 00:32:57,350 --> 00:33:01,330 Speaker 2: by Brian Epstein to record replacement tracks for live Beatles 505 00:33:01,450 --> 00:33:06,900 Speaker 2: albums that were being assembled. Live Beatles albums, recordings from 506 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,540 Speaker 2: the band's raucous sets in Hamburg. 507 00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:14,770 Speaker 1: Now, is this fraud? No, not really. Ish, I guess. 508 00:33:15,510 --> 00:33:19,390 Speaker 2: It was, and to some degree still is, common practice 509 00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:25,030 Speaker 2: to re-record in the studio different instrumentation, drum parts, guitar solos, 510 00:33:25,410 --> 00:33:30,709 Speaker 2: even vocals, to enhance the artist's live recordings. Now, what 511 00:33:30,770 --> 00:33:34,390 Speaker 2: is uncommon is bringing in a ringer to play those 512 00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: parts instead of relying on the band members themselves. Was 513 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: Bernard Purdy that ringer? It stands to reason that yes, 514 00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:46,780 Speaker 2: he was. Was Purdy chosen to record those tracks over 515 00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: Ringo because Ringo was a no-playing motherfucker? 516 00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:54,090 Speaker 1: I don't think so. Not really. You have to remember. 517 00:33:54,790 --> 00:33:59,330 Speaker 2: By Purdy's timeline, this is the summer of 1963. Ringo 518 00:33:59,390 --> 00:34:02,370 Speaker 2: Starr had been in the band for less than a 519 00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:05,380 Speaker 2: year by that point. And it's likely that in the 520 00:34:05,450 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 2: summer of 1963, Beatles management had better things for Ringo 521 00:34:10,460 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: Starr to do over in Europe than to fly to 522 00:34:13,219 --> 00:34:17,140 Speaker 2: America to overdub drum parts. If this happened at all, 523 00:34:17,700 --> 00:34:21,110 Speaker 2: I'm betting that the decision was made for efficiency's sake 524 00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:25,330 Speaker 2: and was less a creative decision. Either way, having Purdy 525 00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:28,710 Speaker 2: play on those tracks, if true, instead of Ringo is 526 00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 2: still kind of bullshit and, yes, fraudish. Worse, it muddies 527 00:34:33,930 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 2: the greatness of the band and validates Quincy Jones' claim 528 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:38,420 Speaker 2: that the Beatles. 529 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,899 Speaker 1: Were no playing motherfuckers. 530 00:34:40,340 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: Again, if this is true. If it's not true, if 531 00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 2: Bernard Purdy was lying, why didn't the Beatles ever deny 532 00:34:48,410 --> 00:34:52,190 Speaker 2: his many claims? Why not directly confront the claim and 533 00:34:52,450 --> 00:34:57,790 Speaker 2: that Ringo's parts were replaced. After all, when Quincy Jones 534 00:34:58,010 --> 00:35:00,489 Speaker 2: made his statement about Paul McCartney that he was the 535 00:35:00,530 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 2: worst bass player I ever heard, Paul McCartney was anything 536 00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: but quiet. Paul McCartney handled the stovetop in the kitchen 537 00:35:15,180 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: of a St. John's Wood home like a Reaper Bond 538 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,980 Speaker 2: bouncer handled unruly Star Club patrons. 539 00:35:21,780 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: Roughly. 540 00:35:22,730 --> 00:35:25,930 Speaker 2: And with little care. Paul was in a good mood. 541 00:35:26,570 --> 00:35:30,549 Speaker 2: It was early 2018, a new year, and he was 542 00:35:30,610 --> 00:35:34,330 Speaker 2: putting the finishing touches on his 17th solo studio album, 543 00:35:35,010 --> 00:35:38,790 Speaker 2: Egypt Station, an album that Paul would see go to 544 00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:40,610 Speaker 2: number one on the Billboard charts. 545 00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:44,689 Speaker 1: But first, there were eggs and chips to make. 546 00:35:45,350 --> 00:35:51,010 Speaker 2: Paul's favorite dish, simple, humble, utilitarian, just like the best 547 00:35:51,070 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 2: little rock. 548 00:35:51,550 --> 00:35:53,940 Speaker 1: And roll groups, They got the job done. 549 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 2: Paul was grooving around the kitchen to the sounds of St. 550 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,320 Speaker 2: Vincent's Mass Education. Paul's friend had sent him this album. 551 00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:04,370 Speaker 1: And he loved it. 552 00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 2: The twitchy groove went well with the wine. Paul was 553 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:14,700 Speaker 2: in a good mood. Then the phone rang. Is this Mr. McCartney? Yes. 554 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:16,819 Speaker 2: Quincy would like to speak with you. 555 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: Unreal. The dude called Sir Paul and put him on hold. 556 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,569 Speaker 2: Paul didn't really care. The wine was too good, and 557 00:36:26,650 --> 00:36:30,190 Speaker 2: so was the music. Quincy Jones' voice came through. 558 00:36:30,030 --> 00:36:33,250 Speaker 1: On the other end of the line. Paul, how you doing, man? 559 00:36:33,890 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: I'm doing great. How are you? You motherfucker! Quincy went 560 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,819 Speaker 1: on the defensive. Paul, I didn't really say that thing. 561 00:36:42,380 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: I don't know what happened, man. I never said that. 562 00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 1: You know I love you guys. 563 00:36:47,460 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 2: Paul then tore into him. If you had said that, 564 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:53,950 Speaker 2: you know what I would have said? Fuck you, Quincy Jones. 565 00:36:54,790 --> 00:37:00,030 Speaker 2: Then they both laughed, exchanged pleasantries, and hung up. Paul 566 00:37:00,070 --> 00:37:02,950 Speaker 2: went back to his eggs and chips, and Quincy Jones 567 00:37:02,989 --> 00:37:04,550 Speaker 2: went back to playing defense. 568 00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:08,630 Speaker 1: He had a couple more phone calls to make. Most importantly, 569 00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:10,050 Speaker 1: to his attorney. 570 00:37:16,850 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 2: Thank you. Months before Quincy Jones' infamous phone call with 571 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: Paul McCartney, Quincy Jones was awarded $ 9. 4 million in a 572 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:48,989 Speaker 2: lawsuit against Michael Jackson's estate for unpaid royalties. And by 2018, 573 00:37:48,989 --> 00:37:52,390 Speaker 2: Michael's estate was gearing up for an appeal, an appeal 574 00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:56,050 Speaker 2: that eventually, in 2020, would reverse $ 6. 575 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,660 Speaker 1: 9 million of the award from the original lawsuit. 576 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 2: And in the end, Quincy Jones walked away with $ 2. 5 million, 577 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 2: and who knows how much of that that he actually 578 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,850 Speaker 2: retained after legal fees. So, It's safe to say that 579 00:38:09,870 --> 00:38:13,890 Speaker 2: when Quincy Jones gave his infamous interview in 2018 and 580 00:38:13,969 --> 00:38:16,550 Speaker 2: said that Michael Jackson was a thief and that Michael 581 00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:20,009 Speaker 2: was as Machiavellian as they come, it's safe to say 582 00:38:20,050 --> 00:38:22,550 Speaker 2: that Q had a bit of an ax to grind 583 00:38:22,730 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: against the Jackson family. But how does this information help 584 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 2: us determine whether Quincy Jones was telling the truth about 585 00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:33,900 Speaker 2: Michael Jackson, that he was a thief? And what, if anything, 586 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 2: does it say about Q's other claims that the Beatles 587 00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:40,330 Speaker 2: couldn't play their instruments? that they were frauds, and that 588 00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:43,870 Speaker 2: he knew through Sinatra who killed Kennedy, about who was 589 00:38:43,969 --> 00:38:48,250 Speaker 2: responsible for the president's murder. We'll take one final look 590 00:38:48,290 --> 00:38:50,770 Speaker 2: at all of these facts and determine if Quincy Jones 591 00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:53,330 Speaker 2: was being straight with us when he said, all I've 592 00:38:53,370 --> 00:39:02,220 Speaker 2: ever done is tell the truth. The ring Quincy Jones 593 00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: wore on his finger in the last decades of his life, 594 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 2: the one he never took off, the gold signet ring, 595 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 2: it sported a family crest, except the family crest didn't 596 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:19,529 Speaker 2: represent Quincy Jones' family. It represented Frank Sinatras. Frank left 597 00:39:19,570 --> 00:39:22,710 Speaker 2: the ring to Quincy when Frank passed, and Q put 598 00:39:22,750 --> 00:39:25,629 Speaker 2: it on and then never took it off. That's how 599 00:39:25,710 --> 00:39:29,529 Speaker 2: close the two men were. They loved each other. Another 600 00:39:29,590 --> 00:39:32,569 Speaker 2: one of Frank's Sinatra's friends also wore a pinky ring, 601 00:39:33,090 --> 00:39:33,980 Speaker 2: Sam Giancana. 602 00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: Giancana hired his muscle out. 603 00:39:36,420 --> 00:39:39,820 Speaker 2: To Frank in Vegas years earlier to protect Quincy Jones. 604 00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 2: Giancana died in 1975. No amount of muscle could have 605 00:39:44,300 --> 00:39:46,900 Speaker 2: protected him in the end. That's what happens when you 606 00:39:46,940 --> 00:39:50,970 Speaker 2: know too much. Giancana was killed in cold blood, shot 607 00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: at close range seven times in the back of the head, 608 00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:58,180 Speaker 2: through his face, his mouth, his neck, and left to 609 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 2: bleed out on his kitchen floor with his sausage and 610 00:40:01,260 --> 00:40:07,140 Speaker 2: peppers still sizzling on the stovetop. Because Sam Giancana, Frank Sinatra's. 611 00:40:06,620 --> 00:40:08,049 Speaker 1: Friend, knew it all. 612 00:40:08,770 --> 00:40:12,150 Speaker 2: He knew not only who killed Kennedy, but who pulled 613 00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:17,089 Speaker 2: the trigger. Because Sam Giancana helped orchestrate the killing. Because 614 00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:23,370 Speaker 2: Sam Giancana hired the Trigger Man because the mafia was double-crossed. 615 00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: By the Kennedys. 616 00:40:24,989 --> 00:40:28,780 Speaker 2: Giancana, without a doubt, knew who killed President Kennedy because 617 00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 2: Giancana made it happen for the commission, the mafia's governing 618 00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:37,540 Speaker 2: body of nine crime families that controlled and profited from 619 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,940 Speaker 2: the majority of organized crime in America. In his 2018 620 00:40:41,940 --> 00:40:45,589 Speaker 2: New York Magazine interview, when asked, what's something you wish 621 00:40:45,630 --> 00:40:50,219 Speaker 2: you didn't know? Quincy responded with, Who killed Kennedy? And 622 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:55,379 Speaker 2: the reporter asked Quincy Jones, who did it? Quincy responded, Giancana, 623 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 2: and then elaborated. The connection was there between Sinatra and 624 00:40:59,180 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 2: the mafia and Kennedy. But this is 2026. Everybody knows this. 625 00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:08,830 Speaker 2: Everybody knows that JFK's father, the powerful businessman Joe Kennedy, 626 00:41:09,230 --> 00:41:11,790 Speaker 2: cut a deal with the mafia for their help to 627 00:41:11,830 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 2: get his son elected president. The mafia, through Sam Giancana's efforts, 628 00:41:16,660 --> 00:41:20,490 Speaker 2: would help the Kennedys secure votes in Illinois, and in exchange, 629 00:41:20,550 --> 00:41:23,390 Speaker 2: when elected, the president would go easy on the mafia. 630 00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:28,070 Speaker 2: But ultimately, the president and his tenacious and self-righteous little brother, 631 00:41:28,210 --> 00:41:31,610 Speaker 2: Robert F. Kennedy, did the opposite once they took power. 632 00:41:32,110 --> 00:41:35,569 Speaker 2: They turned the heat up on the mob. What could 633 00:41:35,650 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones have known that made him so sure? Most 634 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,450 Speaker 2: mob guys, most connected guys, are just like the rest 635 00:41:44,489 --> 00:41:44,779 Speaker 2: of us. 636 00:41:44,910 --> 00:41:46,280 Speaker 1: They talk, they gossip. 637 00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:49,740 Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra and the guys that he ran with, guys 638 00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:52,660 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones was around most every time he worked and 639 00:41:52,739 --> 00:41:56,319 Speaker 2: socialized with Frank Sinatra from the early 60s until the 640 00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:00,150 Speaker 2: time of his death in 1997, was around a lot 641 00:42:00,489 --> 00:42:05,029 Speaker 2: of these dudes. No doubt, They gossiped like bored housewives. 642 00:42:05,310 --> 00:42:06,089 Speaker 1: You see it in. 643 00:42:06,250 --> 00:42:10,219 Speaker 2: Every mob movie ever made, every mafia book ever written, 644 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 2: the loose-lipped gangster on the telephone, in the social club. 645 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: On the long drive, on a wiretap, going to the mattresses, talking, gossiping. 646 00:42:20,590 --> 00:42:22,730 Speaker 2: I believe that in the many years he spent in 647 00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:26,630 Speaker 2: close proximity to Frank Sinatra and the boys, that Quincy 648 00:42:26,690 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 2: picked up specific information about who killed Kennedy pertaining to 649 00:42:31,300 --> 00:42:35,180 Speaker 2: Sam Giancana's involvement in not just the CliffsNotes version of 650 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,580 Speaker 2: the story that we all know, which I outlined a 651 00:42:37,620 --> 00:42:38,140 Speaker 2: moment ago. 652 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 1: I think Quincy knew specifics. 653 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,500 Speaker 2: Otherwise, he wouldn't have said what he said, because at 654 00:42:43,540 --> 00:42:47,100 Speaker 2: that point in 2018, most anyone who had any interest 655 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,549 Speaker 2: in the assassination of the president already knew the broad 656 00:42:50,610 --> 00:42:55,330 Speaker 2: strokes Quincy laid out about Sam Giancana. Quincy likely knew 657 00:42:55,410 --> 00:42:58,790 Speaker 2: some choice facts that are largely unknown to the public, 658 00:42:59,290 --> 00:43:02,469 Speaker 2: but can be found in the research for mob historians. 659 00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:07,250 Speaker 2: Facts like this, as detailed in the documentary Momo, The 660 00:43:07,290 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 2: Sam Giancana Story. Giancana's brother, Pepe, claims Sam told him 661 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 2: that a New Orleans Mafia lieutenant's nephew by the name 662 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 2: of Lee Harvey Oswald was recruited as one of the 663 00:43:19,540 --> 00:43:23,370 Speaker 2: gunmen in the Kennedy assassination by New Orleans mob boss 664 00:43:23,450 --> 00:43:27,989 Speaker 2: Carlos Marcelo, and that Sam Giancana himself supplied the other 665 00:43:28,050 --> 00:43:31,569 Speaker 2: three shooters. the ones on the Grassy Knoll, a crooked 666 00:43:31,610 --> 00:43:36,350 Speaker 2: Chicago cop named Richard Kane, and Chicago gangsters Chucky Nicoletti 667 00:43:36,630 --> 00:43:41,230 Speaker 2: and Milwaukee Phil Aldericio. According to Giancana's brother, the cop, 668 00:43:41,530 --> 00:43:46,170 Speaker 2: Richard Kane, was on Sam Giancana's payroll. Official CIA records 669 00:43:46,210 --> 00:43:50,190 Speaker 2: available in the National Archives specifically identify Kane as a 670 00:43:50,250 --> 00:43:55,190 Speaker 2: Sam Giancana associate, and they show Kane's involvement in passing 671 00:43:55,290 --> 00:43:59,470 Speaker 2: information relevant to the plot against John F. Kennedy. 672 00:44:00,410 --> 00:44:04,109 Speaker 1: Were these three men the actual shooters? I don't know. 673 00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:05,390 Speaker 1: And neither do you. 674 00:44:06,310 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 2: In this war of information era that we now live in, 675 00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:12,969 Speaker 2: there's so much out there, on this story in particular, 676 00:44:13,390 --> 00:44:17,020 Speaker 2: that it's impossible to cull through it all and conclusively say. 677 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,280 Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that in the years and short 678 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,940 Speaker 2: decades after the assassination that the truth was less murky. 679 00:44:25,420 --> 00:44:29,990 Speaker 2: and I believe available to Quincy Jones, given his proximity 680 00:44:30,130 --> 00:44:35,730 Speaker 2: to the men involved. Quincy Jones, because of his talent, 681 00:44:36,090 --> 00:44:39,250 Speaker 2: spent his life working with and around some of the 682 00:44:39,290 --> 00:44:42,569 Speaker 2: most gifted, complex, and powerful. 683 00:44:42,090 --> 00:44:44,350 Speaker 1: People the world has ever known. 684 00:44:44,910 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra, Michael Jackson, Ringo Starr, to name just the 685 00:44:48,980 --> 00:44:51,660 Speaker 2: three most relevant to the question we're trying to answer 686 00:44:51,739 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 2: in this story, was Quincy Jones telling us the truth? 687 00:44:56,290 --> 00:44:59,690 Speaker 2: There's a myth that surrounds these types of people. We 688 00:44:59,770 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 2: see it play out in music biopics, on the pages 689 00:45:02,820 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 2: of their autobiographies, in their obituaries. This myth that their lives, 690 00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:12,020 Speaker 2: not just their personal lives, but their creative lives, that they're. 691 00:45:11,860 --> 00:45:12,660 Speaker 1: Black and white. 692 00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:17,180 Speaker 2: Easy to explain and even easier to understand. Michael Jackson 693 00:45:17,340 --> 00:45:20,660 Speaker 2: was an otherworldly talent. The Beatles were just a great 694 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,740 Speaker 2: little rock and roll band. Frank Sinatra was the most 695 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,940 Speaker 2: successful Italian-American entertainer ever. Quincy Jones, in the end, was 696 00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:31,460 Speaker 2: an old man in the first stages of dementia with 697 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:32,540 Speaker 2: an axe to grind. 698 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,070 Speaker 1: These myths obscure the truth. 699 00:45:36,810 --> 00:45:40,950 Speaker 2: The opposite is always true, that their lives aren't lived in. 700 00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:44,490 Speaker 1: Black and white. They're lived in technicolor. 701 00:45:44,969 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 2: And they aren't easy to explain, and they're often very 702 00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:54,780 Speaker 2: difficult to understand. Michael Jackson was an otherworldly talent, yes, 703 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,760 Speaker 2: but he was also, at the same time, a creative thief. 704 00:45:59,380 --> 00:46:01,890 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones told us so, but the proof isn't in 705 00:46:01,950 --> 00:46:05,910 Speaker 2: Billie Jean. It's in the comparison between Wannabe Startin' Somethin. 706 00:46:05,950 --> 00:46:09,870 Speaker 1: And Soul Mocasa. The Beatles were just a great little 707 00:46:09,930 --> 00:46:10,689 Speaker 1: rock and roll band. 708 00:46:10,730 --> 00:46:14,540 Speaker 2: But they also were, yes, by Quincy Jones's estimation, no 709 00:46:14,620 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 2: playing motherfuckers, as demonstrated with Ringo's struggles in the studio 710 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,859 Speaker 2: and by the fact that the Beatles never denied any 711 00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:26,410 Speaker 2: of Bernard Purdy's claims, particularly as they might pertain to 712 00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:31,230 Speaker 2: overdubs on the early live recordings. And yes, Frank Sinatra 713 00:46:31,530 --> 00:46:36,360 Speaker 2: was the most successful Italian-American entertainer ever. And his deep 714 00:46:36,410 --> 00:46:40,810 Speaker 2: relationship with the American mafia, and specifically with Sam Giancana, 715 00:46:41,130 --> 00:46:45,350 Speaker 2: is well documented and beyond dispute. So doesn't it stand 716 00:46:45,390 --> 00:46:48,590 Speaker 2: to reason that Frank would be privy to the answers 717 00:46:48,890 --> 00:46:54,150 Speaker 2: behind the mystery to what happened on America's darkest day? Finally, 718 00:46:54,690 --> 00:46:56,320 Speaker 2: was Quincy Jones old? 719 00:46:56,820 --> 00:46:57,110 Speaker 1: Yes. 720 00:46:57,860 --> 00:47:00,860 Speaker 2: Did he have signs of dementia in his final years, 721 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 2: at the age of 84 in 2018 when he gave 722 00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:08,140 Speaker 2: these interviews? six years before he died in 2024 at 723 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,719 Speaker 2: the age of 91. No, I don't believe so. And 724 00:47:13,739 --> 00:47:17,609 Speaker 2: there's no public medical record or indication from anyone other 725 00:47:17,620 --> 00:47:22,150 Speaker 2: than Michael Jackson's estate claiming he did. No, I believe 726 00:47:22,310 --> 00:47:26,110 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones was one of the greatest musicians of all time. 727 00:47:26,910 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 2: A musician who became the role model he never had 728 00:47:30,660 --> 00:47:35,290 Speaker 2: to generations of other musicians who regardless of color or background. 729 00:47:35,790 --> 00:47:39,810 Speaker 2: A musician who, because of his talent, had unprecedented access 730 00:47:39,870 --> 00:47:42,969 Speaker 2: to some of the most talented and powerful people in 731 00:47:43,010 --> 00:47:47,029 Speaker 2: the world. A musician whose music was so pure, so 732 00:47:47,190 --> 00:47:51,050 Speaker 2: perfectly tuned to whatever era it was made in, always 733 00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:56,129 Speaker 2: spoke honestly. Just like the man himself, Quincy Jones, who 734 00:47:56,170 --> 00:47:59,970 Speaker 2: said it straight, all I've ever done is tell the truth. 735 00:48:00,690 --> 00:48:03,719 Speaker 2: And that is anything but a disgrace. 736 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: I'm Jake Brennan, and this is Disgraceland. 737 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 2: All right. Thanks for checking out this episode on Quincy Jones. 738 00:48:17,020 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 2: What do you think was cute telling the truth or what? 739 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,090 Speaker 2: You know, I think I made myself clear in this episode. 740 00:48:22,739 --> 00:48:24,700 Speaker 2: And I have no reason not to believe the man. 741 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 2: So it's kind of a dumb question for this week. 617-906-6638. 742 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:31,620 Speaker 2: Do you believe Quincy Jones? Do you believe what he 743 00:48:31,660 --> 00:48:32,140 Speaker 2: was saying? 744 00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:35,540 Speaker 1: Let me know. Side question. Who's your favorite music producer 745 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:36,420 Speaker 1: of all time? 746 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,049 Speaker 2: Is Quincy Jones the guy who made the records you 747 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:40,930 Speaker 2: can't live without? 748 00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:41,489 Speaker 1: 617-906-6638. 749 00:48:41,690 --> 00:48:47,430 Speaker 2: Voicemail and text to let me know at DisgracelandPod on 750 00:48:47,450 --> 00:48:54,830 Speaker 2: the socials. DisgracelandPod at gmail.com. Disgraceland was created by yours 751 00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:58,089 Speaker 2: truly and is produced in partnership with Double Elvis, The 752 00:48:58,130 --> 00:49:02,670 Speaker 2: Exactly Right Network, and iHeart Podcasts. Credits for this episode 753 00:49:02,710 --> 00:49:06,169 Speaker 2: can be found on the show notes page at disgracelandpod.com. 754 00:49:06,750 --> 00:49:09,750 Speaker 2: If you're listening as a Disgraceland All Access member, thank 755 00:49:09,790 --> 00:49:10,810 Speaker 2: you for supporting the show. 756 00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:11,980 Speaker 1: We really appreciate it. 757 00:49:12,430 --> 00:49:14,609 Speaker 2: And if not, you can become a member right now 758 00:49:14,670 --> 00:49:18,110 Speaker 2: by going to disgracelandpod.com membership. 759 00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: Members can listen to every He's a bad, bad man.