1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello, 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: so good to see you in person, so to speak. 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: As they said down South, we're glad to be seen 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: and not viewed. Well, you know, those viewers can be 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: quite entertaining a lot. Yeah, Well, you know. I went 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: to one viewing where I don't know exactly what happened, 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: but a leg shot up. Yeah. She was clearly no 8 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: longer of this world, but there was something that caused 9 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: that leg to go up. That's right. And I bet 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: just some league went out the doors and out the 11 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: window too. That's right. Help help, that's right. I'm Hillary 12 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Clinton and this is You and Me Both, where I 13 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: get into some of today's biggest questions with all kinds 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: of amazing people. Some of them I've known for years, 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: others I'm meeting for the first time in front of 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 1: this microphone. Today, we're talking about faith. For me, it's 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: a deeply personal subject, but it's also something that informs 18 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,639 Speaker 1: my politics. So I wanted to speak to three people 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: who are exploring questions of faith in powerful ways. I'm 20 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: going to talk with Krista Tippett, longtime host of a 21 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: public radio show that I have listened to for years 22 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: called on being and I'll also be talking to actor 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: and comedian as If Manvi, perhaps best known as the 24 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: Daily Shows quote Muslim correspondent. And now let's get right 25 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: into it with my friend, the Reverend doctor William Barber. 26 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: So I am absolutely delighted to welcome the Reverend doctor 27 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: William Barber the second. He's not only been a pastor 28 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: in North Carolina for a lot of years, but he 29 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: became even better known for organizing the Moral Monday Movement. 30 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: He serves as president of Repairs of the Breach, one 31 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: of my favorite Biblical phrases. He co chairs the Poor 32 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: People's Campaign, which is intentionally a reminder of the work 33 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: that Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Was doing when he 34 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: was murdered. He was awarded, you know, one of those 35 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: MacArthur Genius Grant while I was in jail. Can you imagine, Hey, Barbara, 36 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: you gotta call But I was in handcuffs, sitting on 37 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: the bus byway. Yeah. They started talking on the bus 38 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: and said, what well, your life has been one interested 39 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: and challenging experience, my friend. But I want to start 40 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: really at the beginning. Both of your parents were ministers, 41 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 1: weren't they? And In addition to their faith work, they 42 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: helped to desegregate schools in North Carolina. How did your 43 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: childhood shape your faith? Well, thank you so much, Secretary Clinton. 44 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: And that's my Southern way coming out. You know, we 45 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: talked to say, yes, ma'am, Secretary Clinton. I might get 46 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: around the same Hillary, But it's just the thing my parents. 47 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: My father was a minister, my mother was a minister 48 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: of music. She's a concert pianist who's spent a lot 49 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: of time training young students. She's still living, just retired 50 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: recently from the school she'd be segregated after more than 51 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: fifty two years of service. She's a real feisty woman. 52 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: She I asked her at after fifty years, why don't 53 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: you retire? She said, first all mind your business. And 54 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: the second thing is, she said, when I came here, 55 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: they didn't want me here. Now I'm gonna stay here 56 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: until I feel like leaving. And you know, my parents 57 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: accepted a call to come from Indiana back home, my 58 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: father's home. They were actually called on by a black 59 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: principle who was trying to prepare for desegregation. Now this 60 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: was in the mid sixties and schools it's still not 61 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: disegregated in eastern North Carolina, so actually we were living 62 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: in violation of the law. I was taught that there 63 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: was no separation between Jesus and justice. Now, having said 64 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: all of that, my father was more progressive than a 65 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: lot of people in the church, like Dr King, he 66 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: faced some isolation and I decided at an age I 67 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: didn't really want to have anything to do with ministry. 68 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: I would be in church, but not ministry. I told 69 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: my dad, I might be a good deacon, but I 70 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: want to reserve the right to tell people just what 71 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: I feel. And oosters can't always do that because we 72 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: still have the minister. And so I went to school 73 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: to be a lawyer, and in my junior year I 74 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: received a real sense of calling. And when I told 75 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: my father about it, he said, come home, let's talk. 76 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: And we went on a four hour drive and just 77 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: talking about whether or not I could do better inside 78 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: the formal church or outside the former church. And wrestled 79 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: through that, and then I preached my trial sermon. Uh 80 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: in March of nineteen eighty four. The day I preached 81 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 1: my trial sermons, some people can't and said, oh my goodness, 82 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: you're such a great preacher, our church has an opening. 83 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: My daddy looked at me and took me home. He said, 84 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: you better not even think about it. He said, you're 85 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: going to seminary. So I finished my senior year at 86 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: North Carolina Central, the student government president and so forth, 87 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: and went straight to seminary Duke University Seminary in nineteen 88 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: You know, to say that Jesus and justice are the 89 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: same thing, it seems to me to be. So this, 90 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: I mean, how can you be a Bible reading person, 91 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: a church attending person and not understand how profoundly true 92 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: that you know simple phrase really is. And yet you've 93 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: spent decades now preaching and being an activist. How are 94 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: you trying to open up people's minds and hearts to 95 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: understand what Christianity should mean and what should be expected 96 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: of us who claim to be followers of Jesus. Well, 97 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: let's prosecute case a little bit and do a little 98 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: little theology and admit, from at least Western culture and 99 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: American culture, we have two great problems that have affected 100 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: and infected theology in a bad way. Um, and that 101 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: is the genocide of First Nation people and the enslavement 102 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: of African Americans. That were all rooted in race is 103 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: and interestingly enough, the exclusion and oppression of women. Right now. 104 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: To do those three things, there had to be a 105 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: misinterpretation of scripture, because you're right, if you read the Bible, 106 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: there are over two thousand scriptures in the Bible to 107 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: talk about how you should do justice, how you should 108 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: treat at least things, how you should treat the poor, 109 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: the sick, the children, the women, and the immigrant. Jesus 110 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: started his ministry to the poor, his public ministry. His 111 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: first sermon, the spirit of the lords upon me to 112 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: preach good news to the poor. And the word for poor, 113 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: that is protacos, is one of three words in Greek. 114 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: That word protacos literally means those who have been made 115 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: poured through political exploitation. Then, when Jesus is dying or 116 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: preparing to die, he said, the nations will be judged 117 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: by when I was hunting, when I was sick, when 118 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: I was an immigrant, the text I said, did you 119 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: welcome me right now? How is it that so many 120 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: for a claim then to be quote unquote Christians, but 121 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: then have been anti immigrants, anti the freedom of black people, 122 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: anti the liberation of women, anti treatment of indigenous people right. Well, 123 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: in order to do that, somebody had to twist the scriptures. 124 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: So one of my professors said, to be a Christian 125 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: to be born again, sprinkled, whatever you call it, and 126 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: to claim the Holy Spirit is to have a care 127 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: with the world's systems of injustice. And if whatever you 128 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: claim you have doesn't produce a choir with injustice, then 129 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: your claim of it being the spirit with the big 130 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: is suspect. When you think about the very deliberate, concerted 131 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: effort by one political party to basically try to own Christianity, 132 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: and it overlooks the role of the African American Church, 133 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: It overlooks, as you say, a lot of theology, a 134 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: lot of history. It also overlooked this moment in time. 135 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: You know, black lives matter. I view, as you know, 136 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: very profoundly, a theological statement is uh. And when you 137 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: think about what's happening in our country right now, do 138 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: you see that maybe we are finally going to have 139 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: the moral reckoning that has been distorted and perverted and 140 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: postponed for so long. M You know, I'm thinking a 141 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: lot about that question, because, first of all, historically, you know, 142 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: not we had slaveholder religion, but we also had Frederick Douglas, 143 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: we had the religion of the slave, we had the 144 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: religion of the abolitionist. Let's not forget that the first 145 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 1: people coming together to fight against racism is not new. 146 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: You know. Yes, you had the racism in the South, 147 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: but alongside that you had Doc King and so many 148 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: others who preached the gospel of justice and liberation, so 149 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: that we've always had these two streams, if you will now, 150 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: I hope so when you say that about this moment 151 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: that we're in, and I think it will be a continuation, 152 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: because in every age has their emmons. Pettis Bridge right, 153 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: every generation has their moment. We've had two reconstructions, one 154 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: between eighteen sixty eight and eighteen ninety six, and then 155 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: we had the second reconstruction nineteen fifty four to nine eight. 156 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: And I think America needs a isn't the third reconstruction? 157 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 1: I think this is the birth pains of it. When 158 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: I see all of the organizing, the things that are 159 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 1: happening in climate, the Black Lives Matter, poor People's campaign, 160 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: the women's movement that's standing, all of these things coming together. 161 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: But in this moment when George Floyd was killed assassinated, 162 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: strangle lynched on a sidewalk. That young girl that kept 163 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: that camera is the real hero because she forced us 164 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: to see it, just like Emmett Tiel's mama forced us 165 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: to see his death. Now, the question is, though, is 166 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: all that we see in the street just about that 167 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: and I see it respectful? I don't think so. The 168 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: reason is because that happened also during a time of COVID, 169 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: when we have a lot of death going on and 170 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: we find out seven or eighty percent of people didn't 171 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: have to die if we've done the right thing. On 172 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: top of that, we have seven hundred people dying a 173 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: day from poverty even before COVID, so there's a lot 174 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: of hurt. So I think that when people saw this death, 175 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: and they saw it in act that are carried out 176 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: by the state, the state is not supposed to kill you. 177 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: Life is what the state is supposed to protect. And 178 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: when he said I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I 179 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: think internally and spiritually a lot of people took that 180 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: as shorthand for how all many people of theater, those 181 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: workers being forced to go into work in lethal environments 182 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: without protection. I can't breathe. People who are dying in 183 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: hospitals that shouldn't even be dying one are the problem 184 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: of their last words, I can't breathe. And so there's 185 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: a sense in which Secretary Clinton at the country that 186 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: all this movement in the street and all of this 187 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: coming out is like the democracy trying to breathe, establishment 188 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: of justice, trying to breathe, provided for the common good, 189 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: promoting general effort, trying to breathe, saying something's not right here. 190 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: And I think this moment can be a moment where 191 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: we come to terms not just with systemic racism as 192 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: it affects Black people, but systemic racism and all of 193 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: its manifestations against brown people, against First nation people, but 194 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: also systemic poverty and ecological devastation, and the war economy, 195 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,599 Speaker 1: and the false mold narrative of religious nationalism. This is 196 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: a moment. If we don't miss the moment, if we 197 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: match our policy decisions to the morning we see in 198 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: the street, and if we don't treat this as a 199 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: spectacle event rather than recognizing this is a call for reconstruction. 200 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: This is a moment that we can fundament the ship. 201 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: But it's gonna require a lot of ship. That's gonna 202 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 1: require politicians the ship. It's gonna require people that may 203 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: run for office to be moderate, to recognize we're not 204 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: in a moderate moment. We're in a reconstruction moment. We're 205 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: in an FDR moment. We are not in normal times. 206 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: And God help us if we blow this moment. That's 207 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: where where I feel about, we're taking a quick break. 208 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: Stay with us. How do you see now what the 209 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: church should be doing, because a lot of people are 210 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: leaving the church. A lot of young people are leaving 211 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: the church in part because the way they understand what 212 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: Christianity has become is you know, so judgmental, so alienating 213 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 1: that they think to themselves, well, I don't need that. 214 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to be part of that. So this 215 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: should also be a time for the church to take 216 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: a hard look at itself and try to figure out 217 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: how it can be a real partner in this moment 218 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: of more awakening. So there's a book that I when 219 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: I studied my doctoral degree at through University, it was 220 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: in pastoral care in public pots, and one of the 221 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: books I was read said that you do not care 222 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: about your people from a pastoral perspective if you are 223 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: not willing from a prophetic perspective to challenge the systems 224 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: that make them have the problems that need pastoral counseling 225 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: in the first place. So in this moment, we have 226 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: to stop separating the two. You know, a lot of 227 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: young people are leaving so called white evangelical list. And 228 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: I was told when we started working with young people, 229 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: you know, you're not gonna be able to be a 230 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: preacher because they're not. They don't like that. I said, no, 231 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: I said, what they don't like is this bland form 232 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: of religion that tells them all religion is about is 233 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: just praying and wishing for stuff. Young people are very 234 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: open to faith that is about transformation, about love, about justice, 235 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: about equality, about the essence, the essence of what it 236 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: means to be people of faith. And I think we 237 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: have to be engaged. There's no way in the days 238 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: in which we live, the church can stay quarantined inside 239 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: of the four walls, because that's never what it was 240 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: intended to do. You know, I've made a pack with 241 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: some pastors, for instance, and we've said, if anybody in 242 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: our church dies from the lack of healthcare, we're gonna 243 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: do just like Emmett Till's money called the media in 244 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: and said this is what bad government policy looks like. 245 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna say, how in the world can you 246 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: claim to follow Jesus who if he did anything, he 247 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: healed everybody free and he never charged the leoper cope. 248 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: So how, I mean, really, how how do you claim 249 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: to follow? And and I mean it makes absolutely no sense. See, 250 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: and I'm moving into poor People's campaign. What's attracting people? 251 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: There's three things. The counterintuitiveness of it. People coming together, 252 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: cold models from Kentuck get black folk from the delta. 253 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: Number two that we are showing the interlocking connection of 254 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: the injustice and young folk get this. They love it. 255 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: They love the moral fusion when you connect the dots 256 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: because they understand that. And then number three'sn't attracting them 257 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: is the teaching. Another word I mean by that is 258 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: when we go in the room and say did you 259 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: know they are hundred and forty million poor lowwell people? 260 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: And they said what? And did you know the sixty 261 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: or six million? And my wife, did you know about 262 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: Joseph Stickley the book The Cost of Any Quality? Say, 263 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: remember the cost of any problem, not what does it cost? 264 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: To fix it, but what's the cost of leaving it 265 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: the same? And we folks start hearing those numbers and 266 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: realizing that it doesn't have to be that these are choices, 267 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: then they are actually empowering, and they're drawn in because 268 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: if it's a chance to do it, then we can unchoose. 269 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: I absolutely we can choose something different. You know, this 270 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: year has been a tough year for so many of 271 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: our fellow Americans. There's so much that has gone wrong, 272 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: not only the ravages of the pandemic, but the economic devastation, 273 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: the lost jobs and livelihood, some of which are not 274 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: going to come back, a terrible sense of just confusion 275 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: and loss at the core of our national identity. Would 276 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: you just say a few words to all of these 277 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: people who are struggling, you know, how can they keep 278 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: the faith? How can they regain the faith? How can 279 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: they understand that you know, Jesus and justice mean the 280 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: same thing, if only we are liberated from a political, 281 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: short sided, oppressive religion. And once again, you know, our 282 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: fellow seekers, how would you, you know, address those who 283 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: are really hurting right now? Well, I think that several things. 284 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: Number one is I'm reminded of the words of Frederick 285 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: Douglas when the dread Scott decision came down in eighteen 286 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: fifties and everybody said it was over. That's it, there's 287 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: nothing we can do. Slavers is going to be what 288 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: it is. And he was invited to speak to a 289 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: women's group in May and Frederick Douglas said, this decision 290 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: is monstrous in all of its considerations. But you need 291 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: to know that every attempt to alie our movement as 292 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: only served to embolden and intensify agitation. And what at 293 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: this moment of pain is unnecessary link in the breaking 294 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: of the change of oppression. I think we have to 295 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: remember that people have come through some very very despairing 296 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: situations before. And when people ask me about optimistic, no 297 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: and my hope for yes, but it's the hope that 298 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: has to come through the despair. I think the third 299 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: thing is to recognize that a lot of what we're seeing, 300 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: even with COVID, is not God made, is human ineptitude. 301 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: And if humans, as James Balbin said, messed it up 302 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: our path phrase, then then we can fix it. The 303 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: next thing is remember in history that it was after 304 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: the swine flue, after all that pain that track LA 305 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: down the roads that in the new deal that isn't 306 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: after after this. So I say the fourth in this moment, 307 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: don't give up, Join up, Join the movement, Join LA 308 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: the four Things campaign. Because every time people have come 309 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: together in the most difficult moments, whether it was Frederick Douglas, 310 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: Harriet Tubman, Lucretia Mott, the coming together, they were able 311 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: to fundamentally shift the direction of history. History is not set. 312 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: We can affect history. Is it hard? Yes, it is 313 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: gonna be childing. Yes. So some of us have decided 314 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: to say this claim that if if right now, in 315 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 1: this moment, but than forty eight hours, any one of 316 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: us could be on a ventilator breathing our last breath, 317 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: if that's the possibility in this moment, then what are 318 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: we gonna do with it? Well, one of the things 319 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: we can do with it is say, if I knew 320 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: I only had two days to breathe, what kind of 321 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: world would I fight for with my last breath? What 322 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: kind of love, what kind of greats? What kind of truth? 323 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: And then start living like that all of us we 324 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: might live forty eight more years, But in this meantime, 325 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: and I do mean meantime, in this means right that 326 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: we decide that we are not going to join with 327 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: the meanings, that we're going to use our last breath 328 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: and everything we have, our activism, our voting, our conversation, 329 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: our building community, because I don't have any breath to waste. 330 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: And if I'm going to honor the people who have 331 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: died and lost their breath, then the only way I 332 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: can honor them is to use the breath. I have 333 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: to fight for a better world that would not have 334 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: cost them their life. And I think if we do that, 335 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: we can, in fact, you out of this great moment 336 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: of despause King was, says Stone of hope. We can 337 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: be repairs of the breach. We really can be repasitive breach, 338 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: and we can be a movement. Now it's going to 339 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: mean we must push, push, and sometimes that's gonna mean 340 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: your friends. I'm not gonna like it necessarily, but it's 341 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: better to be pushed by our friend to be made better. 342 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: Black and white and brown and red and yellow and 343 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: gay and straight. It trans whoever we are. We are 344 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: this movement, and the last thing we can do is 345 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: just that Cat, you are a man after my own heart, 346 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: my friend. Yeah, I mean, that's how I feel every day, 347 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: and I cannot tell you how much I have loved 348 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: having this conversation with you. And for those who have 349 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: listened who want to hear more from Reverend Dr William Barber. 350 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: His sermons at his church are stream live on Facebook, 351 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: but there are so many other ways you can find him, 352 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: his writings, his speaking, his incredible work of purpose and 353 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: mission on behalf of forming, as our mutual friend John 354 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: Lewis would say, a beloved community, a community in America 355 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: that finally lives up to our our values and our faith. 356 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, my friend. It's wonderful having this 357 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: chance to talk with you, and I look forward to 358 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: continuing the conversation. Thank you so much. If you're looking 359 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: for more wisdom from Reverend Barber, pick up a copy 360 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: of his new book, We Are Called to Be a Movement. 361 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: Nearly two decades ago, Christa Tippett recognized that most Americans 362 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: have a hard time talking about religion and spirituality outside 363 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: of places of worship. So she started a conversation that 364 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: continues to this day, not only with religious leaders, but 365 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: with everyone from poets to physicists. I am so excited 366 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: to dig into this topic with her. It's just a 367 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: sheer delight to have this chance to talk with you. Christa, Well, 368 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: it's an honor and really a delight to be here. 369 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: I particularly resonate to a saying of your describing your 370 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: own work that I read, where you seek to address 371 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: what you call a black hole where intelligent public conversation 372 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:31,679 Speaker 1: about the religious, spiritual, and moral aspects of human life 373 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: might be. Krista talked to me about how you see 374 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: this present time. Are we filling the black hole? Are 375 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: we ignoring it? Uh? Where is the opportunity for what 376 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: I think is a much needed spiritual reckoning um about 377 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 1: what it means to be human and trying to be 378 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: more focused in how we live the life we are given, 379 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: both alone and in company. Yeah, well, I do agree 380 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: with you that as I've watched this moment, I feel 381 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: that it has brought into relief. It has surfaced that 382 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: the questions before us have deep moral content and and 383 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: in fact are about, you know, the soul of our nation. 384 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: And we still have to develop the muscles and the 385 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: language and the practices public practices to take those things 386 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: on together. But I think more of us are aware 387 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: that that's what we're called to do um, and theology 388 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: does have a contribution to make as part of the 389 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: human enterprise. Um. What does it mean to be human? 390 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: How do we want to live? And who will we 391 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: be to to each other? Those questions are so alive 392 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,479 Speaker 1: in our life together right now, between our pandemic and 393 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: our racial rupture and awakening. I mean, I am really 394 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: turning now to words and practices that I feel again, 395 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: like I would say, have to are offered up to 396 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: all of us as part of the human enterfries of contemplation, 397 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 1: of repentance, of redemption, of healing, of I was talking 398 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: to some rabbis the other day about lamentations, right like 399 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: in that tradition that lamentations is supposed to be a 400 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: public practice. And I don't know about you, but that 401 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: word I land so um with relief in me. I 402 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: want to lament. I need to lament, and I want 403 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: to lament with others. And instead we're just so good 404 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: at all the other We leap over lament and we 405 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: point fingers and we blame and we yell and we 406 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: get mad. And there are these other places in us 407 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: that these traditions are the bearers are not the only bears, 408 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: but I feel like they are great resources and companions 409 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: for now. I wish there were a way as we 410 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: think about the time we're living through right now, and 411 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: how necessary it is for people to slow down, to 412 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: take a deep breath, to think about their lives and 413 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: the lives of those around them too, maybe explore some 414 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: of the spiritual and religious practices and the and the 415 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: and the great questions that haven't gone away just because 416 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: we don't address them. I'm with you, I you know, 417 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: my quick definition of spiritual life is befriending reality. Mm hmm, 418 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: unpacked that for us, unpacked that that's great to be 419 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: friend reality, which means all its complexity. Right, we are 420 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: all so complicated and our life together is so complicated, 421 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: and all of these challenges that we face are so complicated. 422 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: But resisting that complexity doesn't get us where we want 423 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: to go. And I think when I say that befriending 424 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: reality also, what I mean by that is that these 425 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: traditions Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, they contain not just 426 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: conversation and wisdom across time and generations about who God 427 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: might be or what transcendence is, but this matter of 428 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 1: being human, the complexity of being human, and so much 429 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: of what the traditions have taught and cultivated is now 430 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: being worn out in our disciplines of neuroscience and social psychology. So, 431 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,959 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things we're learning is the 432 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: corrosive effect that fear has. When human beings are afraid, 433 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,239 Speaker 1: we are literally unable to rise to our best selves. Right, 434 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: it's literally too much to ask of somebody's The system 435 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: is overwhelmed. Yeah, I can't do it. If you feel threatened, 436 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: the feeling of threatened is enough. You may not actually 437 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: be in danger. So that's reality. And so the pragmatism 438 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: of these spiritual tools and practices and teachings is that 439 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: it gives us the power to settle into our best selves, 440 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: this move of not letting fear dominate, a finding ways 441 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: to control that in ourselves, to step into our best selves, 442 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: to transmit to others that that is possible, to move 443 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: through the world that way. We cannot face the challenges 444 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: before us. We cannot face how we have distorted ourselves 445 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: with this construction of race. Right, I mean to name 446 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: just one of the things that is before us, which 447 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: which which kind of under has underpinned so many of 448 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 1: the others. If we don't find ways to rise into 449 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: the best and deepest and most complex aspects of our 450 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: humanity and character, our moral imagination. Oh, I feel literally 451 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: thrilled by that phrase befriending reality and your description of 452 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: what it means, what it could mean. That really is 453 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: just truly music to my ears. Christa. We'll be back 454 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: right after this quick break, you know, I will say, 455 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: since I'm here with you, I know and I've known this, 456 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: but I hear it in your voice, even even though 457 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: you're mostly just asking questions now. But I I know 458 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: that this is a huge part of you, the tradition 459 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: you grew up in, that there is a religious and 460 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: and spiritual funding to your life that I assume has 461 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: evolved because I think if if this part of life 462 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: like anything, if if you're alive, it's evolving, and you 463 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: have had an adventurous life, and um, I just think 464 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: it must have been I have thought this before. It 465 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: must have been frustrating for this, even this part of 466 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: yourself to not be able to show because as we 467 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: talked about, there's not a place where the complexity and 468 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: richness and fullness of this part of us, it gets 469 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: honored and has a place to show itself. I don't 470 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: know if that's a question, but well, no, but I 471 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: take it as a question because it's one that I've 472 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: thought about a lot. Um. I was raised as a Methodist. 473 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: I was raised, uh, you know, going to Sunday School. 474 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: I had a really influential youth minister who took us 475 00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: to a different level of thinking about why and and 476 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: what it meant to be a Christian, what it meant 477 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: to be a person of faith. Uh. He was the 478 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: one who took me, as a young teenager to hear 479 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King Jr. Speak um. And he was 480 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: constantly challenging us, uh with art and poetry and different 481 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: ways of thinking about the world than the ones we 482 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: had grown up with in our suburb of Chicago. And 483 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: so I always believed that faith was a constant in 484 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: my life. You might hear the rain beating on the 485 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: top of the roof of my my little, my little 486 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: attic office where I am recording this, which seems kind 487 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: of appropriate. Um, But it was really difficult to ever 488 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: express any of these feelings or experiences, or even the 489 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: questions raised by my own faith in my own upbringing 490 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: in my own searching in my public life. For example, 491 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: when my father died, I had given, you know, several 492 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: weeks of my time by his bedside as as he 493 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: passed away, and I was just totally overwhelmed by what 494 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: we all experienced, that the death of a loved one. 495 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: And I had promised to speak at the University of 496 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: Texas before my father's stroke, and I was trying to 497 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: get out of it. And the indomitable was Carpenter who 498 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: had asked me to deliver the speech, and no, no, Hill, 499 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: are you got to come? You know, we filled the 500 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: field house tens of thousands of people. You have to come. Well, 501 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: I had no idea what I was going to say. 502 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: I didn't feel up to the occasion, but you know, 503 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: I'm a dutiful Methodist person, and so of course I went. 504 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,479 Speaker 1: And it was an incredibly emotional experience for me. And 505 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: I talked about meaning and life and I remember just 506 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: being ridiculed by the press. Um, what right did I 507 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: have to raise these issues in public? What was a 508 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: quote first lady doing talking about issues of life and 509 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: death and meaning and spirituality. It was a very very 510 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: difficult um time in my life. And two feel that 511 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: I had no public outlet for exploring these issues meant 512 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: that I just became more personal, and so that was 513 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: kind of you you then decided you needed to keep 514 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: that in Yeah, and it's it in terms of a 515 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: personal experience, it certainly has continued. But I have felt 516 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: often that, you know, maybe if I could think of 517 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: a better way of talking about it, a more oh 518 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: understandable and acceptable way, I might possibly make a better impact. 519 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: But you know, I feel very fortunate that I've had 520 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: this grounding in faith, not just emotionally but intellectually. Because 521 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: I have, I have fallen back on it, you know, 522 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: time and time again. So it's it's it's challenging. If 523 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: you're in the public eye and known for being in 524 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: the public eye as a political person, there's an acceptable 525 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: range to talk about religion. Uh, but if you go 526 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: into these deeper questions, the press and and and certain 527 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: elements of the public get immediately anxious about it. Yeah. 528 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: We just we don't have that, We don't have the vocabulary. 529 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't and and and don't think it's 530 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: somehow appropriate to have right conversation in public, like don't 531 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: talk about this in public for having's sakes. Yeah. I 532 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: also think that word you use searching the crazy thing 533 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: is that the religion that does get somehow sanctioned. It's 534 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: the certainty, right, it's this, it's the doctrinaire. Yes, and 535 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: that's actually not how people live this. I like you 536 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: just you described it's been, it's your it's somebody dies. 537 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: It's like these moments in life where it doesn't all 538 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,919 Speaker 1: add up and and and nothing else is there. This 539 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: is where we are turned into our interior existence and 540 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: these questions of meaning. That makes so much sense what 541 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: you just said. And and if it's painful to me 542 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: from before, it's painful to hear about, well, thank you 543 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: again for spending this time with me. Thank you. You 544 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: can hear Christo Tippett every week tune into On Being 545 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: from Minnesota Public Radio and pr X. I want to 546 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: turn now to someone else who has shed new light 547 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: on the issue of faith, in his case through humor. Christianity. 548 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: It's the dominant religion in our country. But did you 549 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: know it's also in serious trouble. No, it's not gays, 550 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,439 Speaker 1: not science, not the rual Hollywood. According to Alabama, it's 551 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: sharia law. Assif monv is perhaps best known for his 552 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: role as the Daily shows senior Muslim correspondent, or alternatively, 553 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: the senior foreign looking correspondent. He was also the lead 554 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: actor and co writer and producer of the web series 555 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: Halal in the Family. What a great name, they say, 556 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: if you want to make people think, try making them laugh. 557 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what Ossif does, all while confronting racisms 558 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: and a phobia, Islamophobia and bigotry. And then there's the 559 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: latest development this past march, Assip became a dad, and 560 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: of course I wanted to hear all about that. So 561 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,439 Speaker 1: before we get started on all this other stuff, what's 562 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: your son's name? His name is is Sean a mere Mandvi. 563 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: My wife is Hindu and I'm Muslim. So we uh, 564 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: Sean is a Hindu name, Amir is Muslim and his 565 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: initials are i am, which is uh, you know, Jewish. Yeah, yeah, wait, 566 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: So we got all the bases covered, you know, walking 567 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: advertisement exactly, major religions exactly. It was. It was actually 568 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: amazing because we had an interfaith wedding, Hindu Muslim wedding, 569 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: and uh, we have to make it up because you know, 570 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: there's a world in which Chifali and I would never 571 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: have gotten married, you know, that's right. And how did 572 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: you grow up? I mean, I know you spent part 573 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: of your childhood in the UK, then your family moved 574 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: to Florida. How did it feel to you growing up 575 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: Muslim in those two settings. Well, you know, I did 576 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: grow up Muslim, and I grew up in a relatively 577 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: religious home. My grandparents were religious, you know, so Islam 578 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: was always just part of the d n a of 579 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: my childhood. You know, maybe not ironically, but interestingly. It 580 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: didn't really become a thing until after nine eleven. You know, 581 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: up until then, I had this religion that felt very private, 582 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: and it felt like it was my thing that I 583 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: did with my family. We went to the mosque, sometimes, 584 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: we prayed at home, you know, we went to religious 585 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: ceremonies of things. But it never became something that was 586 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: looked on from the outside until after night eleven. And 587 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: then suddenly there was a different relationship to it, and 588 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: suddenly I was dealing with the explanation of it or 589 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: having to somehow defend it or somehow, you know, Islam 590 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: became politicized. But growing up, it just felt like it 591 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: was a very personal, private thing, and I used it 592 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: as my own way of connecting with whatever highest spirit, 593 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, gone universe, whatever that is. When you think 594 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: about politicizing religion and then the Islamophobia that resulted after 595 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: nine eleven, you have been one of the very few 596 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: high profile people who have walked right into that. Uh you, 597 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: and I want to I want to understand your thinking 598 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: about it, because you know, I'm sure that there were 599 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 1: people who said, you know, don't go there, you know, 600 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 1: don't don't make it an issue. How did you come 601 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: to grips with what you wanted to do to try to, 602 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, in your own way, combat what you saw 603 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: as the politicization and the really demonization in so many 604 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: different more of Islam. Well, you know it's funny because 605 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: I was, well, this is gonna Sometimes life just happens 606 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: to you, and what you do in that moment defines 607 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 1: what happens in the next moment. And for me what happened. 608 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to be political. I wasn't trying to 609 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: like be outspoken about it, even after nine eleven. Um. 610 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: I was dealing with it on a personal level, but 611 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: never in a public forum. And then the Daily Show 612 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: happened for me. I got this job that I never 613 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: expected to get. I never was I wasn't looking for it. 614 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: It literally happened. I went, I went to this audition, 615 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: John Stewart hired me, and suddenly I was now the 616 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: Muslim correspondent on the Daily Show, much to the terror 617 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: of my parents, who I remember saying, my dad saying 618 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: to me, listen, if John Stewart ever asked you anything 619 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: about Islam, you just haven't called your mother because you 620 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:02,919 Speaker 1: don't know a damn thing, and so like so they 621 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: were terrified, and I was gonna be out there like 622 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 1: just you know, saying all kinds of nonsense that didn't 623 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: make any and then I what it did for me 624 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: was it gave me this platform. And at that time, 625 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, there were not a lot 626 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 1: of a lot of people representing in that way that 627 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: felt like it was truthful. I mean, you had, like, 628 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: you know, the terrorists on twenty four or you know, 629 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I got so many scripts in the aftermath 630 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 1: of nine eleven where it was literally the first scene 631 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: of the movie or the TV show is the towers 632 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 1: coming down and and Muslims cheering and praying every script. 633 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: And so this was the first time there was something 634 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: where like I thought, oh, this is a an actual conversation, 635 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: like we're actually talking about this. And I think that 636 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: when I got on the Daily Show, I ended up 637 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: there and I thought to myself, Okay, this is what 638 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna end up being. And I realized like, oh, 639 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,480 Speaker 1: there was a need for it. So I leaned into it, 640 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 1: and then I found a voice around it. Then as 641 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 1: I stepped into it further and further, I realized, oh, 642 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: this is I'm actually finding a voice that I had 643 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,720 Speaker 1: not allowed myself to find. So sometimes it's just about 644 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: being given the opportunity to express that. And then you 645 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: realize like, I got a lot to say, you know, 646 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: I didn't know that I had this much to say 647 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: around this. Yeah, and let let me sort of bring 648 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 1: this back to both faith but also fatherhood. So here 649 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: you are a new father, um, thinking about all that's 650 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: going on in the world around you. How do you 651 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,480 Speaker 1: hope the world looks you know, in five years when 652 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 1: he starts school, in eighteen years when he graduates from 653 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: high school, and how do you see how raising your 654 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: son at this moment is going to play out? Well, 655 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: I feel I I do believe, And then and you know, 656 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: maybe This is the glass half full guy in me, 657 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: which is that I do believe that after a breakdown, 658 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,839 Speaker 1: there is a breakthrough, and if we're going through some 659 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 1: kind of sort of profound breakdown, there is going to 660 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: be a moment a breakthrough. And I also believe something 661 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: that I discovered recently, which is the difference for me 662 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: between faith and belief, you know, and belief is I 663 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,480 Speaker 1: believe something is going to happen. I believe that I'm 664 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: gonna get that job, or I believe that I'm gonna, 665 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, be whatever it is. Faith is understanding that 666 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: no matter what happens, I have the capacity to move 667 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: forward and to be okay. And that is something that 668 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: I feel like I want my son to understand. It's 669 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,799 Speaker 1: a it's a much more difficult thing to inhabit, which 670 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: is this idea that like I'm going to be and 671 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: we will be okay no matter why what happens, and 672 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: that is faith and that that we cannot be destroyed 673 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: because faith is larger than that version. You know. Yes, 674 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: I love that, and I'm with you in hoping that 675 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: you know, this breakdown leads through a breakthrough. Yeah, but 676 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: I just can't thank you enough. I loved love talking 677 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: to you. I just wish the best for you and 678 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: your wife and your son. Thank you so much. This 679 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: has been such a pleasure. Thanks so much. When he's 680 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: not changing diapers, Ossip Munby has his hands and many 681 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: new projects, including a highly entertaining new supernatural drama series 682 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,360 Speaker 1: called Evil on CBS. Check it out. You and Me 683 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We're 684 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: produced by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo, with help from 685 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:58,280 Speaker 1: Huma Aberdeen, Nikki etur Oscar Flores, Brianna Johnson, Nick Merrill, 686 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: Lauren Peterson, Rob Russo, and Lona Valmorrow. Our engineer is 687 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,440 Speaker 1: Zach McNeice. Original music is by Forest Gray. If you 688 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: like You and Me Both, don't keep it to yourself. 689 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 1: Tell a friend. You can subscribe to You and Me 690 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 1: Both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 691 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, leave us 692 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 1: a review. I'd really appreciate it. We'd love to hear 693 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: from you, so send us your questions, comments, or ideas 694 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: for future shows at You and Me Both pod at 695 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Come back next week when we're talking 696 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: to some amazing women leaders, including the one and only 697 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: Gloria steinhum