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Speaker 1: On this episode of the NEWTS World. It's not often

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Speaker 1: I get the opportunity to speak with someone who used

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Speaker 1: to be a professional hacker for the CIA. My guest

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Speaker 1: is doctor Eric Cole. He is a renowned cyber security expert, entrepreneur,

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Speaker 1: and best selling author with over thirty years of experience

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Speaker 1: in the industry. He is known for his work in

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Speaker 1: advancing cybersecurity and his dedication to making the digital world

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Speaker 1: a safer place. He has advised some of the world's

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Speaker 1: top companies on reducing their digital threats and improving their

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Speaker 1: cyber health. He's the author of the book cyber Crisis,

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Speaker 1: Protecting Your Business from real threats in the Virtual World. Eric,

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Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me on NEWTS World.

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Speaker 2: My pleasure and thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm very curious. Symber of last year, Chinese hackers breached

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Speaker 1: a third party vendor for the US Treasury Department to

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Speaker 1: gain access to over three thousand unclassified files. How could

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Speaker 1: this have happened and what should the US government learn

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Speaker 1: from this?

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Speaker 2: The reality is this is happening all the time.

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Speaker 3: Most security vendors, most companies, most organizations have been compromised

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Speaker 3: or penetrated by the Chinese, the Russians, or the Iranians,

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Speaker 3: and we just didn't detect it. We didn't realize it,

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Speaker 3: and we didn't know that it's happening.

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Speaker 2: So this is a much.

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Speaker 3: Bigger problem that has been brewing for a long time,

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately there's not been a lot of awareness around

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Speaker 3: just how bad the issue is. And governments and other

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Speaker 3: organizations have to realize that the probability of third party

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Speaker 3: vendors or third party sources having a vulnerability or a

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Speaker 3: compromise is very high, and we need to redesign our systems,

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Speaker 3: We need to redesign how we're configured to protect against it.

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Speaker 3: And most importantly, we need federal laws on cybersecurity. There's

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Speaker 3: a lot of state laws, California is leading the pack

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Speaker 3: where there's a lot of privacy laws, but the United

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Speaker 3: States is one of the few countries that don't have

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Speaker 3: federal laws on cybersecurity and federal laws on data privacy.

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Speaker 1: Then why is that? Why are we behind?

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Speaker 3: I believe the big issue is we always thought and

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Speaker 3: a lot of people still do, that cybersecurity gets in

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Speaker 3: the way of freedom of speech, that cybersecurity gets in

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Speaker 3: the way of exchange of information, and that cybersecurity is

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Speaker 3: not fit for a democracy. Like most people when they

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Speaker 3: think of cybersecurity, you think of North Korea, where they

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Speaker 3: don't have internet access. Citizens in North Korea, they can't

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Speaker 3: access the internet, they don't have email, they can't access information.

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Speaker 3: Even in Russia, most people don't realize a lot of

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Speaker 3: the websites that we take for granted, a lot of

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Speaker 3: the social media sites are not accessible in Russia and

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Speaker 3: they're not available. So people have always felt that cybersecurity

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Speaker 3: is more of limiting and reducing access to information.

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Speaker 2: But that's just not correct.

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Speaker 3: Cybersecurity is about how do we protect and control our

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Speaker 3: information so only people that need access to it has

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Speaker 3: access to it. And I think that's why we've fallen behind,

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Speaker 3: because we just haven't realized that cybersecurity is actually a

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Speaker 3: compliment to democracy, it's not adverse to it.

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Speaker 1: Does anybody the you know of have an effective cybersecurity

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Speaker 1: bill proposal?

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Speaker 3: None that I'm aware of. I continually try to push it.

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Speaker 3: The problem is, as you're probably very familiar, everything is

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Speaker 3: so political, everything is so either side has to disagree

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Speaker 3: with each other that anything we we're trying to push

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Speaker 3: through on cybersecurity is reading a version from.

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Speaker 2: The other side.

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Speaker 3: And the reality is we need to recognize cybersecurity as

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Speaker 3: a non bipartisan issue. It's really something that impacts both sides.

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Speaker 3: It impacts democrats and impacts Republicans and impacts America as

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Speaker 3: a whole. And one of the things I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: do is really, how can we break down those barriers

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Speaker 3: and get both sides to agree that, Okay, we can

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Speaker 3: fight about some things, but cybersecurity, we need to get

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Speaker 3: her act together. Because when the founding fathers wrote the

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Speaker 3: Constitution and the bill Wrights, they had no clue that

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Speaker 3: we were going to be carrying cell phones with us.

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Speaker 3: They had no clue that we've been having tracking devices

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Speaker 3: on us twenty four to seven and we need new

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Speaker 3: laws that are keeping up with the digital frontier.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't help but smile, dad, is we have ready

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Speaker 1: to celebrate our two hundred and fiftieth birthday that if

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Speaker 1: you were to drop George Washington or Jefferson or Franklin

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Speaker 1: under the current situation, all of them would have found them. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think they would be amazed.

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Speaker 1: It'll be remarkable. One of the examples I've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about a lot elon Musk and Doge sent an email

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Speaker 1: to federal workers saying, please reply to this email with

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Speaker 1: approximately five bullets of what you accomplished this week and

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Speaker 1: carbon copy your manager. Now, if people responded to that,

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Speaker 1: are there any cybersecurity risks in responding to an email

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Speaker 1: like that?

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Speaker 3: There's huge cybersecurity risks because you essentially have somebody who

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Speaker 3: is not employed by that government agency and they're asking

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Speaker 3: for information about what you're doing on a daily basis.

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Speaker 3: If I answered that accurately, I would be giving away

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Speaker 3: a lot of critical information. If I had to go

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Speaker 3: in and say, well, I'm working on this project, I'm

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Speaker 3: working in this area, I'm working.

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Speaker 2: On this research.

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Speaker 3: That's a lot of valuable information that if that got

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Speaker 3: on the wrong hands. And my question is what email

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Speaker 3: address is Elon Musk using to get replies?

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Speaker 2: Where are those emails being stored?

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Speaker 3: Because at least from as far as I can tell,

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Speaker 3: Elon is not using government servers. I know that he's

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Speaker 3: installed some of his own servers at Treasury and other areas.

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Speaker 2: So now, if these.

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Speaker 3: Emails from government employees that potentially are containing sensitive or

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Speaker 3: even classified information are stored on public servers, what happens

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Speaker 3: if foreign adversaries get access to it. And I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you saw this week, but the Doze website

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Speaker 3: got hacked.

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Speaker 2: They don't even have proper security.

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Speaker 3: So here he's setting up their website for Doze for

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Speaker 3: government efficiency. They got hacked, and they're expecting government employees

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Speaker 3: to give all this sensitive information to these servers that

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Speaker 3: clearly have vulnerabilities.

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Speaker 1: What I'm thinking that this is one of those ideas which,

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Speaker 1: when you hit the implementation phase, is a thousand times

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Speaker 1: more complicated than the idea. Yeah, and I think that

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Speaker 1: they really don't fully understand that.

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Speaker 3: And this is one when I can resonate because at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day, Elon is a geek. He's

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Speaker 3: not a businessman, he's not a cyber guy. He's a geek,

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Speaker 3: and he's all about solving problems and he wants to

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Speaker 3: solve the problem as quick and as fast as possible

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Speaker 3: and get access to information. The issue is cybersecurity is

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Speaker 3: always an afterthought. And back to your original question of

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Speaker 3: why is the United States behind it's because cybersecurity is

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Speaker 3: always an afterthought. We're not thinking of cybersecurity. Elon didn't

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Speaker 3: sit down and say, okay, how can we do this

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Speaker 3: in a secure manner. What are the cybersecurity protocols that

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Speaker 3: we need in place to do this correctly? He basically

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Speaker 3: just said, I need the data. We'll figure out cyber later.

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Speaker 3: But the problem is with digital information. Once your data

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Speaker 3: is leaked out, once your data exists on servers, you

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Speaker 3: can't get it back. It will exist forever. I know

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Speaker 3: before the podcast, I was talking with your producer how

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Speaker 3: she took her daughter to a hospital and it got

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Speaker 3: hacked and her daughter's personal information was exposed. And the

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Speaker 3: reality is now that person has to live the next

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Speaker 3: fifty sixty seventy years of their life in a world

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Speaker 3: where their personal information has been compromised because once somebody

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Speaker 3: has your social Security number, you can't get it back.

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Speaker 1: So to make clear how big a threat this says,

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Speaker 1: you talk about a cyber war, you say, quote, our

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Speaker 1: nation is currently a war, whether we realize it or not.

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Speaker 1: We're in the middle of World War three. The reason

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Speaker 1: why many people don't recognize it is because it's a

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Speaker 1: different type of world war. In this war, every single

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Speaker 1: country is involved in. Every single country is both being

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Speaker 1: attacked and attacking other countries. Walk us through all that.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, but I think it'll be very

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Speaker 1: helpful for people to hear what this cyber war is like.

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Speaker 2: So most of us think of wars.

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Speaker 3: We think of World War one, World War two, tanks, planes, boats, missiles,

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Speaker 3: and guns.

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Speaker 2: But we're in a digital war because we live in

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Speaker 2: a digital world.

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Speaker 3: And now it's not bullets, it's not weapons, it's packets,

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Speaker 3: it's information, it's data, it's leakage. And the reality is,

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Speaker 3: as we're starting to see with some of these breaches

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Speaker 3: that come out. We saw Colonial Pipeline. I live on

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Speaker 3: the East Coast in Virginia, and when Colonial Pipeline, a

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Speaker 3: large oil supplier on the East coast, got hacked, our

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Speaker 3: gas stations were closed for four days. People were actually walking,

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Speaker 3: they were panicking, saying, are we actually going to be

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Speaker 3: able to get gas because of a cyber attack. Then

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Speaker 3: we have Solar Winds, where you talked about earlier, where

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Speaker 3: broke into a vendor that compromised government systems, And these

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Speaker 3: attacks continue to happen and occur, but the reality is

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Speaker 3: they started five to ten years ago. The Chinese, the Russians,

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Speaker 3: they're in our systems, we're in their systems, and it's

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Speaker 3: sort of like the nuclear Cold War where Russia could

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Speaker 3: destroy the United States and we could destroy Russia. So

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Speaker 3: neither side would actually launch a nuclear weapon. But we're

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Speaker 3: in Russian's critical infrastructure, they're in our critical infrastructure, and

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Speaker 3: neither side is going to do anything because it would

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Speaker 3: do mutual mass destruction. But what's happening when our information

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Speaker 3: starts leaking out? What happens when our data is being compromised?

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Speaker 3: And the reality is because we're at war. When you're

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Speaker 3: at war, you have a different mentality. I've been over

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Speaker 3: in the Ukraine, I was over in Iraq during the

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Speaker 3: Iraq War. When you're in a war, people are thinking differently,

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Speaker 3: they're acting differently. They're more scared, they're more paranoid, they're

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Speaker 3: more careful about what they're doing. The problem we have

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Speaker 3: in the United States is everybody on the Internet thinks

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Speaker 3: we're in peace time conditions. So they're sharing information, they're

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Speaker 3: giving their data, they're accessing whatever they want, they're posting pictures,

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Speaker 3: they're putting everything out there. But the reality is, if

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Speaker 3: they knew were at war, we need wartime thinking. People

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Speaker 3: need to be more paranoid, a little more scared, than

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Speaker 3: a little more protective of the data. They need to

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Speaker 3: be careful of who they're giving their information to. We

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Speaker 3: need to start implementing security because here's the great news.

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Speaker 3: Your banks, your e commerce all have security built in,

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Speaker 3: but it's turned off by default. It's not all turned

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Speaker 3: on because they don't think citizens are ready for it.

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Speaker 3: So we need to start going in to our apps,

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Speaker 3: going into our devices and start turning on security as

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Speaker 3: turning on notifications, turning on two factor authentication. So the

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Speaker 3: security is there, but we just have to start implementing it.

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Speaker 3: And the war that we're facing today is not a

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Speaker 3: visible war where there's huge explosions or banks are being

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Speaker 3: taken down. It's a war of data leakage. Imagine we

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Speaker 3: have a big bucket. Instead of somebody going in emptying

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Speaker 3: the bucket, they're just putting little holes in the bucket.

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Speaker 3: They're slowly leaking our data and leaking our information, and

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Speaker 3: by the time the bucket's empty, most people don't even notice.

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Speaker 3: A reality that I see all the time is most

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Speaker 3: people's bank accounts or credit cards are compromised. But here's

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Speaker 3: the reality. The attacker is stealing a dollar a month. Now,

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Speaker 3: imagine if somebody is taking a dollar from your bank

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Speaker 3: account each month or a dollar from your credit card,

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Speaker 3: you probably wouldn't know. Most people don't look at their

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Speaker 3: credit cards that closely. Most people don't look at their

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Speaker 3: bank accounts close enough that if a dollar was missing,

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Speaker 3: they would not recognize that error. But if you steal

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Speaker 3: a dollar from every person every single month, that starts

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Speaker 3: turning into a billion dollar industry, which is what we

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Speaker 3: have right now. Cybercrime is over fifty billion dollars. It's

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Speaker 3: costing America on a regular basis.

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Speaker 1: That's wild, and that's so much bigger than people think

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Speaker 1: it is. Exactly if people want to protect themselves somewhat

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Speaker 1: from their own devices, what should they do and how

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Speaker 1: do they do it?

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Speaker 3: So the first thing they need to do is realize

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Speaker 3: that when you buy a new iPhone or you buy

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Speaker 3: a new Android device, they are very secure.

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Speaker 2: They are very locked down and protected.

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Speaker 3: The problem is when we start installing all of these

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Speaker 3: different apps. Free is not free, and basically a free

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Speaker 3: app is tracking your location. So first, if you have

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Speaker 3: the choice between a free app or a paid version,

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Speaker 3: use the paid version. If it's something that you need

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Speaker 3: to run your life or it's critical for your life,

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Speaker 3: you need to use a paid version because the paid

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Speaker 3: versions are a lot more secure than the free versions. Next,

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Speaker 3: any app that you haven't used in forty five days,

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Speaker 3: the lead the lead off your app, And I'm going

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Speaker 3: to give you the challenge. I run my life on

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Speaker 3: ten apps. If I go and download a new app,

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Speaker 3: I only do it if I delete an old one.

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Speaker 3: So instead of having fifty and seventy apps on your

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Speaker 3: device that you're not using, do you realize an app

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Speaker 3: that you install on your device but you're not using,

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Speaker 3: actually is spying on you. It's tracking your location, it's

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Speaker 3: accessing your camera, it's accessing your information. So delete any

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Speaker 3: apps that are not needed or required. Second, for any

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Speaker 3: application you're using, you need to use what we call

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Speaker 3: two factor authentication. This is where when you log in,

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Speaker 3: you put in your password and then your text a

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Speaker 3: one time code to your cell phone, and then you

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Speaker 3: have to enter in that one time code. And I

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Speaker 3: know people's initial response is, Eric, that's annoying if every

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Speaker 3: time I need to log in, I have to enter

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Speaker 3: a code that takes a couple of extra seconds. And

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Speaker 3: my response is, you know what's really annoying your bank

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Speaker 3: account getting hacked. You know what's really annoying your identity

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Speaker 3: being stolen. So do you want a short term annoyance

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Speaker 3: with two factor or a long term annoyance of being vulnerable? Next,

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Speaker 3: turn on account notification. Every time I use my credit card,

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Speaker 3: every time I withdraw money from my bank, I get

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Speaker 3: a text notification where it says, Eric, is this you

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Speaker 3: Did you actually do this transaction?

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Speaker 2: Did you actually withdraw money from the account?

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Speaker 3: And the reality is I get text messages at least

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Speaker 3: one to two times a quarter that are unauthorized transactions.

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Speaker 3: So if I didn't have that turned on, those transactions

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Speaker 3: would have occurred, and I would have been exploited and

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Speaker 3: I would have been compromised. So once again, small short

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Speaker 3: term annoyance, but long term benefits. So turn on account

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Speaker 3: activity notification on all your systems. And then the last

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Speaker 3: piece I always give is, under no circumstances should you

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Speaker 3: ever click on a link. Don't ever click on a link,

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Speaker 3: don't ever click on attachment. This just happened to one

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Speaker 3: of my friends where they're traveling in Florida. They got

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Speaker 3: a text notification that said, you ran one of the

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Speaker 3: fast tolls in Florida and you need to pay the

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Speaker 3: fine or you're going to have huge issue. Using problems

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Speaker 3: click on this link, and because they were in Florida,

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Speaker 3: they thought it was legit. They clicked on the link

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Speaker 3: and it was a scam. So don't ever click on

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Speaker 3: a link, don't ever open an attachment. But Eric, what

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Speaker 3: if my bank sends me a notification that says there's

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Speaker 3: a problem and there's a link, Go to the app,

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Speaker 3: Go to the app, log in using a valid app

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Speaker 3: to access your bank account, But never click on a

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Speaker 3: link and never open an attachment.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm really curious, Eric, should you have a banking

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Speaker 1: app on your phone? Yes?

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Speaker 3: I know that's counter because a lot of security people

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Speaker 3: are like, no, don't have anything. The reality is our

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Speaker 3: phone is a trusted advisor. It's something that we have

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Speaker 3: with us and we access And here's the reality. Apps

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Speaker 3: are much more secure than websites. Apps are much.

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Speaker 2: More secure than clicking links.

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Speaker 3: So if you're going to use your bank, if you're

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Speaker 3: going to do online banking, if you're going to e commerce,

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Speaker 3: it's much better to use the apps. The apps have

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Speaker 3: a lot more security and a lot more protection than websites.

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Speaker 3: So the best advice I can give you is minimize

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Speaker 3: your use of websites. Maximize your use of trusted apps,

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Speaker 3: and that's going to also make you a lot more secure.

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Speaker 1: We're really kind of a free for all where it's

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Speaker 1: not like the Cold War where there was one side

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Speaker 1: and the other side. It's more like between governments and

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Speaker 1: private criminal groups, et cetera. It can be coming from

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Speaker 1: anywhere at any time, and so you can't just focus

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Speaker 1: on North Korea or focus on Russia. You almost have

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Speaker 1: to focus on how you defend yourself against all the

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Speaker 1: attacks in every single version.

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Speaker 2: That's very because here's the reality. There are no.

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Speaker 3: National and international borders on the Internet. When you're on

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Speaker 3: the Internet, I can access different countries, different areas, different locations,

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Speaker 3: and there's no boundaries.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing.

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Speaker 3: Somebody in Russia can access servers and individuals in America

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Speaker 3: without going through customs, without presenting a passport, without going

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Speaker 3: through immigration. So the problem is, as I mentioned, the

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Speaker 3: laws were written for physical boundaries. If somebody is physically

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Speaker 3: in the United States, they have to abide by our laws.

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Speaker 3: If they're physically in Russia, they abide by Russian laws. Well,

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Speaker 3: on the Internet, you don't know where you're at. I

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Speaker 3: track very closely and I will tell you when I'm

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Speaker 3: surfing the Web and doing daily activity just like you

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Speaker 3: and anyone else. I'm frequently accessing servers in the Philippines

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Speaker 3: because there's a lot of data centers there. In Singapore,

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Speaker 3: the Middle East has a lot of data centers, Dubai,

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Speaker 3: South America, and people don't realize that even when they're

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Speaker 3: going to e commerce sites or banks or other areas

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Speaker 3: and giving away their information, those servers are often not

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Speaker 3: in the United States, which means your data and your

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Speaker 3: information is not in the United States, which means even

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Speaker 3: if we had privacy laws, they might not apply to

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Speaker 3: your data information if it's outside of our country. So

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Speaker 3: people just don't really understand the complexities that the Internet

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Speaker 3: is really one world.

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Speaker 2: There's no boundaries.

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Speaker 3: Servers can exist, data can exist anywhere, and until we

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Speaker 3: get international laws where we all cooperate and say, okay,

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Speaker 3: we're all going to work together, it's going to be

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Speaker 3: real difficult. Because this just happened this morning is I'm

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Speaker 3: working on an investigation and we found a hacking group

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Speaker 3: in Russia. We know who they are, we know where

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Speaker 3: they're located, we have their physical address. They're a company,

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Speaker 3: an incorporated company in Russia. But here's the problem. They're

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Speaker 3: not breaking any laws in Russia, and there's no extradition

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Speaker 3: treaty with Russia, so we know who's hurting us, who's

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Speaker 3: hurting Americans, who's stealing our information. But because there's no

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Speaker 3: international laws, there's really little we can do to stop them, which,

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Speaker 3: as you said, every individual has to realize they're a

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Speaker 3: target and we need to start putting measures in place

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Speaker 3: and protect us because unfortunately, until there's global laws, the

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Speaker 3: laws aren't going to be able to protect us or

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Speaker 3: keep us safe.

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Speaker 1: Can we reverse it and use our cyber capabilities to

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Speaker 1: go back in and attack the people who are doing.

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Speaker 3: This, We absolutely can. That's another area that we've seen

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Speaker 3: the recent presidents actually do a really good job on

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Speaker 3: Trump in his first term he was actually the first

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Speaker 3: president that actually allowed Department of Defense to launch scienceber

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Speaker 3: attacks without executive approval.

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Speaker 2: Prior to Trump passing.

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Speaker 3: That executive order on his first term, if the Department

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Speaker 3: of Defense wanted to launch a cyber attack and offensive operation,

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Speaker 3: they needed presidential approval. Now, China doesn't require that, Russia

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Speaker 3: doesn't require that.

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Speaker 2: I ran in Iraq doesn't require.

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Speaker 3: That, so we were really hamstrung in that capability. So yes,

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Speaker 3: we have to start getting more aggressive. But the other

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Speaker 3: thing we need to do is got a lot more

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Speaker 3: partnership between government and commercial organizations. In China, the Chinese

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Speaker 3: government spies and steals information from US companies for the

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Speaker 3: benefit of Chinese companies. In the United States, we don't

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Speaker 3: have that capability in the United States, the Department of Defense.

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Speaker 3: They can't steal corporate information and give it to US

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Speaker 3: companies because once again.

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Speaker 2: That violates our laws.

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Speaker 3: But if other countries, their governments are working on behalf

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Speaker 3: of local companies to help and support them, we need

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Speaker 3: to do the same thing. We need to have a

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Speaker 3: much closer partnership where we can launch offensive operations and

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Speaker 3: then the government can share that information with US companies

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Speaker 3: to help make them more competitive.

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Speaker 1: As you think through this continuous cyber war, as I

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Speaker 1: understand that North Korea is almost entirely government run cyber war,

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Speaker 1: but Russia has a huge amount of criminal operations. Nigeria,

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Speaker 1: I think has a lot of criminal operations. So yeahther

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Speaker 1: China has a mixture of government them free enterprise entrepreneurs.

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Speaker 1: Is that lily to all around the world that there

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Speaker 1: are different.

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Speaker 3: Patterns, absolutely, and you nailed it in North Korea.

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Speaker 2: There's really no corporations.

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Speaker 3: The government is the country and basically runs everything, so

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Speaker 3: everything is run from the govern and control by the government.

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00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 3: In China, it's very cooperative where companies and the government

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Speaker 3: work very closely together, so the government is going to

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Speaker 3: do attacks on the heaf of companies and vice versa.

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Speaker 3: Now when you get in to carriers like Russia and Nigeria,

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Speaker 3: it's interesting the commercial criminal actually helps and supports the government.

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Speaker 3: So these commercial elements are actually supporting and involved.

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Speaker 2: A lot of government.

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00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: Officials in Nigeria, a lot of government officials in Russia.

403
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 3: They're actually involved and sit on the board of these

404
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 3: cyber crime or criminal companies, so they're actually supporting, helping them,

405
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: and they're helping and supporting the government in return. Imagine

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Speaker 3: in the United States if we had generals and government

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Speaker 3: officials actually sitting on commercial boards that are doing offensive

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Speaker 3: operations to help the company but also help the country.

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Speaker 2: It's a total mind shift.

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Speaker 3: But the reality is until we start thinking and acting

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Speaker 3: like the adversary and started doing what the adversary does,

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Speaker 3: we're at a disadvantage. Because these other countries have commercialized cybercrime.

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Speaker 3: They're making tons of money on it. They've legalized cybercrime,

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Speaker 3: and because in the United States it's illegal, we're at

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Speaker 3: a huge disadvantage in terms of offensive operations and protecting ourselves.

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Speaker 1: And some of these things are really big. If I'm

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Speaker 1: mumber correctly, the twenty fifteen Office of Personnel Management breach

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Speaker 1: was a huge failure. Did we learn anything from it?

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, very little. And the reality that.

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Speaker 3: Is brought up that we have to recognize is social

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Speaker 3: security numbers are no longer private information.

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Speaker 2: We have this term.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you've heard PII personally identifiable information or PHI

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00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 3: personal healthcare information, and our social security number, our driver's

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00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 3: license are all considered private information. And if somebody knows

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Speaker 3: my social security number, my data birth and my driver's license,

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00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: they can open bank accounts, they can open credit cards,

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Speaker 3: they can access information, they can access data. But as

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Speaker 3: you said, in that breach and in other breaches, a

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Speaker 3: large percent of American social security number has been compromised.

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Speaker 3: A large number of social security numbers is public information.

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Speaker 3: So now we're living in a world where a personal

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Speaker 3: identifiable information is actually public. Our social security number is public,

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Speaker 3: our driver's license is public.

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Speaker 2: Yet that's what we're.

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Speaker 3: Using to authenticate, and verify. So in terms of back

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Speaker 3: to the federal laws, we actually need to come up

438
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: with new unique identifiers for American citizens that is actually secure,

439
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: protected and not compromise. Something along the lines of biometrics.

440
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: We're actually tying it to like your fingerprint or your

441
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 3: facial idea or something that's much more difficult for somebody

442
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 3: to steal. But the reality is what we're using as

443
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 3: personal information is actually public and exposed and available to

444
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 3: many people.

445
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 1: I mean, should people despair or how do you function

446
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: in the kind of wide open world you're describing?

447
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 3: The reality is sort of two things. One is awareness

448
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 3: is recognizing the reality. Don't be afraid of it, don't

449
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 3: be terrified. I work in cybersecurity, and people like Eric,

450
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 3: how are you in a good mood?

451
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: How are you not depressed?

452
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 3: Them like, Because I'm aware and I understand that, I

453
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 3: embrace it, and then it's just doing simple things, doing

454
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 3: cyber hygiene. But the reality is because technology came on

455
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 3: so quick that most of us were not trained in school.

456
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: When I went to school, the Worldwide Web didn't exist.

457
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 3: There weren't cell phones, there weren't computers. They didn't teach

458
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 3: me about cyber hygiene.

459
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 2: But now my.

460
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: Kids are going to school and they're still not teaching

461
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 3: them about cyber hygiene.

462
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: So to me, it's a lot of simple things.

463
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 3: One is just recognize and know that you're a target,

464
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,160
Speaker 3: and understand where is your information, where is your critical data?

465
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 3: And then understand that passwords are a thing of the past.

466
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 3: Passwords are no longer strong. I can crack any password.

467
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: You give me an account that uses a password, and

468
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 3: I'll break into it. And we need to really embrace

469
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: what we call two factor, a multi factor, and this

470
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 3: is where you get an alert to your phone. You

471
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: type in a code and start doing that. The other

472
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 3: thing we have to realize is free apps are not free.

473
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: Those free apps that you have on your cell phone,

474
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 3: they're spying on you. I always love doing this. If

475
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 3: we were in person, with your permission, I would ask

476
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 3: to look at your phone and go under advanced settings

477
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 3: and go under tracking and camera and you would probably

478
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: be shocked of how many apps are tracking your location

479
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,239
Speaker 3: and how many apps are accessing your camera, or how

480
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: many apps are accessing your microphone. And the reality is

481
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 3: we can turn that off if we're aware. Most people

482
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: just are not aware of how bad the threat is,

483
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 3: and how open and exposed our data is.

484
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: I'm sort of being sobered up just thinking about it.

485
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: Let me ask you specifically about North Korea, because several

486
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: people have said to me that a large part of

487
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: the North Korean military operation is actually subsidized by cybercrime,

488
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: and that if we were really serious about putting pressure

489
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,239
Speaker 1: on North Korea, we would find ways to sort of

490
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: isolate them from a cyber theft standpoint. I mean, is

491
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: that accurate?

492
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: It is accurate, and not just for North Korea, but

493
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: also Russia and Nigeria and Argentina and a lot of

494
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,959
Speaker 3: these countries that they're realizing that competing with the United

495
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: States in traditional business is really hard. It's really difficult,

496
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 3: and I hate to say it. You heard the phrase

497
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 3: crime pays. It is real easy to commit cybercrime. I

498
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 3: often joke with my friends and family that if I

499
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: didn't have ethics and morals and I didn't love this country,

500
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 3: I could be a lot richer if I moved to

501
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 3: South America and basically was a cyber criminal.

502
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 2: It is just unfortunately so easy and.

503
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: Simple to break in to these different companies, steal information,

504
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 3: hold them ransom, ransomware attacks where they break in, they

505
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 3: steal the data unless you pay ransom. Most people don't

506
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 3: realize last year, in two thousand and twenty four, ransomware

507
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: attacks just in the United States against US companies was

508
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: over forty two billion dollars.

509
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: Good grief.

510
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: Now take twenty bills million of that, give that to

511
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: North Korea. Take another ten billion, give that to Russia.

512
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 3: So yes, imagine now a country like North Korea is

513
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 3: making twenty billion dollars a year on cybercrime, and they're

514
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: increasing their capabilities because guess what, it's working. We can't

515
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 3: stop them, and they're continuing to get more advanced in

516
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: their capabilities. I always laugh is we're trying to stop

517
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: North Korea from having nuclear weapons, But the reality is,

518
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 3: without realizing it, North Korea has built cyber security nuclear weapons.

519
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: That are hurting and harming US, and we don't even realize.

520
00:31:41,920 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: It that the whole system you're describing. We really have

521
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: to reconceptualize how we're approaching this. It's so much bigger,

522
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: so much more powerful, it has so many more threats.

523
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: You almost need to start from ground zero and try

524
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: to imagine both what would a secure effective system be

525
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: like and what would the right kind of offensive system

526
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: be to make people decide it was too expensive and

527
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: too painful to do things to us. I mean, it

528
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: does not require a whole new way of thinking about

529
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: the system's architecture.

530
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

531
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 3: We talked about the last several years about infrastructure. There

532
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: was the trillion dollar Infrastructure Bill to sort of rebuild

533
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: the US infrastructure because it's old and it's outdata, it's antiquated.

534
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 3: We need a trillion dollar bill on rebuilding our cyber infrastructure.

535
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: Because the reality is the United States created the Internet.

536
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 3: If you go back to the sixties and seventies, there

537
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: was Darpernet, which was the original research project with the

538
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 3: Department of Advanced Research, Department of Defense that actually built

539
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 3: out the Internet. Well, what happened is the infrastructure of

540
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 3: the Internet and the United States have now become one,

541
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: which means we don't have any boundaries, we don't have

542
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: any protection. North Korea can disconnect from the Internet. They

543
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 3: know where they're connected to the Internet. Russia has done

544
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 3: this twice a year. Russia disconnects from the Internet for

545
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: twenty four hours to show that they can run independently.

546
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 3: The problem is in the United States, the Internet is

547
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: the United states. We can't disconnect, we can't isolate, we

548
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: can't protect. So you are spot on where we need

549
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: a huge revamping, where we need to rebuild the cyber infrastructure.

550
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 3: We need to rebuild how we're connected to the Internet,

551
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: and we need to create ice related countries just like

552
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: Russia and North Korea, where we could protect, secure and

553
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: limit who can access and what can access or information.

554
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 3: But until we sort of redesign our infrastructure on the

555
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 3: Internet and have a new cyber infrastructure, this is going

556
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 3: to continue to be a problem because we're trying to

557
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 3: fix a broken model.

558
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: Seems smoothed. What you have is something which grew up

559
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: at hoc over a long period of time and gradually

560
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: began to attract more and more bad actors. And now

561
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: you have bad actors who have very modern technologies and

562
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: very modern approaches kind of trading a system much of

563
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: which is obsolete. This has really got to be one

564
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: of the profound infrastructure challenges of the Trump administration to

565
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: take this head on.

566
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: I agree, and that's one where I love what's going

567
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: on now with government efficiency and dodge and cutting spending.

568
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 3: But my concern is are we focused on the right

569
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 3: now problem Government efficiency is an issue.

570
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: It's an issue that we need to address. We need

571
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: to limit spending.

572
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 3: Cyber security is a problem that we have to stop ignoring.

573
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: So you really summarize it so well that this administration,

574
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: to me, if they want to go down and sort

575
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 3: of be remembered and have a legacy, the legacy is

576
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: not going to be in government efficiency. It's not going

577
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 3: to be in cutting spending. It's going to be Could

578
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 3: this be the first administration that actually passes federal cyber

579
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 3: security laws? Could this be the first administration that passes

580
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 3: a trillion dollar cyber infrastructure bill that rebuilds our cyber infrastructure.

581
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: But you're right.

582
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: Until we start taking this seriously and Congress and the

583
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 3: White House and everyone starts realizing that cybersecurity is the

584
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 3: number one problem, we're going to continue to have these

585
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 3: issues and continue to be vulnerable.

586
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: This is exactly right. And I'm really delighted that we

587
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: had this conversation because I think you put your finger

588
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: on one of the great challenges of the next ten years.

589
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: And I want to thank you for joining me. Your book,

590
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: Cyber Crisis, Protecting Your Business from Real Threats in the

591
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 1: Virtual World is available now on Amazon and in bookstores everywhere.

592
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: We're going to feature a link to buy it on

593
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: our show page, and I want to let our listeners

594
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: know they can follow your recent work by visiting your

595
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,959
Speaker 1: website at doctor Ericcole dot orgon Thank you so much for.

596
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: Being here, my pleasure, Thank you for having me.

597
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, doctor Eric Cole. You can

598
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: get a link to buy his new book Cyber Crisis

599
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: Protecting Your Business from Real Threats in the Virtual World

600
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is

601
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 1: produced by Gamelish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer

602
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork

603
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,919
Speaker 1: for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks

604
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: to the team at Gaglish three sixty. If you've been

605
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and

606
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a

607
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now,

608
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: listeners of Neutrold can sign up for my three free

609
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: weekly columns at Gingrich sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm

610
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: newt Gingrich. This is neut world,