WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 11 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.600 Executive producer Harris Hilton brings back the hit podcast How 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.360 Men Think, and that's good news for anyone that is 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:11.360 confused by men, which is basically everyone. It's real talk, 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.080 straight from the source. How Men Think podcast is exactly 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:16.960 what we need to figure them out. It's going to 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.320 be fun and formative and probably a bit scary at 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.720 times because we're literally going inside the minds of men. 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:26.840 Listen to How Men Think on the I Heart Radio app, 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.840 Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Gave us 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.600 the over attention we need. Everything you've got fast. Waiting 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.279 on Reparations would be the podcast. 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Hey, everybody, 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:18.720 Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know. 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.440 This is a compiletion episode. So every episode of the 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:26.240 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.560 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:31.960 in a long stretch if you want. If you've been 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.119 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.200 be nothing new here for you, but you can make 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:46.560 your own decisions. Hey, every buddy, America, Hey Americans, America, 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:51.760 How is American? That is the podcast? And that was 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:53.960 that was a horrible issue. That was maybe your talk 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.960 ted worst. This is it could happen here a podcast 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:03.000 where an incompat tent Rube Fox up starting the show 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.640 and then we talk about how things are falling apart 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:10.240 or how to make things not fall apart, or some 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:15.600 version of things in between those two facts. Yep, yep. 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.160 That's a kind of kind of not great time going 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.880 on right now. A lot of people are That was 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.119 our our second that was our b pitch for the name. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.600 Kind of a great time going on right now. Actually, 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:35.840 not that far from what was say, Yeah. I mean 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.520 it's like, especially especially right now, there's there's a lot 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.320 of a lot of trials going on, m feet on stuff, 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:46.400 and the d our Very trial is happening, the one 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.600 about you know, un Unite the Right is going on, 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.440 and of course the kindn't have his trial as of 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:55.600 as of recording is um people, the jury is still 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.640 in um so no idea. What's going to be the 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.160 rest all. By the time that episode, I've actually been 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.520 like not commenting on it or neither to think about it. 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:07.919 There's nothing we can do about it. There's nothing you 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.919 can do. And like a lot of people, there's been 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.080 discussion about how much civil unrest there's going to be 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.239 depending on the result of the trial. I know there's 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.519 been a lot of like national guards sent to Wisconsin. 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.480 It's been you know, FBI door Knox and activists tombs 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:24.440 trying to scare people so they don't you know, go 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.080 out and ride or whatever. Discussion online the people you 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.520 know planning protests in response to in response to whatever 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.440 the result is. Um. I know just today there was 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.640 a post from I think the Ohio Proud Boys claiming 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.040 that they be sending like like uh was it hundreds 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.800 or thousands of like people armed with like a RS 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.080 to Wisconsin, or yeah, there's there's a fucking post. People 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:48.920 are saying, like, you should take it seriously because it's 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.720 from a Proud Boys internal chat, and it's like, we've 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.920 got three hundred guys heavily armed heading to and there's 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.440 already X number of guys there, and we're gonna kill 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.960 a lot more Communists than Kyle written House did. And YadA, YadA, YadA, 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.480 and ya. If I could give you one piece of 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.080 advice now, and who knows where the world is at 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:09.240 the point of which this episode drops, it's when people 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.960 talk about say when if you are at a protest 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.320 and someone starts talking about the Proud Boys and the 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.240 Proud Boys are coming or the Proud Boys are here, 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.960 if you don't immediately see uncontrovertible visual proof that they 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:25.119 have access to showing it, assume it's nonsense. Okay, Yeah, 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.320 that is my advice as someone who has heard a 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:32.640 thousand times people say versions of the Proud Boys are coming. Okay, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.600 insist on evidence or ignore it. But you know, whenever 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.719 whenever these big civil you know, unrests and types of 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.120 stuff happens, there's always an increased chance that there'll be 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.760 some kind of protest related shooting. Especially people are definitely 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:52.080 absolutely may happened by the time this episode drops. Especially 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.080 people are bringing guns, people people bring a fire arms 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.000 under There's been a lot of the you know, for 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.040 like the demonstrations outside the courthouse, there's been you know, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.800 guns there. Um there's been you know, an increasing uh 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.800 in the rate of shootings at protests on the West 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.480 Coast throughout the past few months. Um, So I'm gonna 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:10.880 be kind of talking about, you know, some things that 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:12.719 you can do if you're at home and you feel 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.800 competent enough in the aftermath of one of one of 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.760 these shootings. You know, if if if you know, if 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.039 a proud boy does bring a bring a gun and 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.360 shoot somebody at what you can actually do a video 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:28.679 If you're in a situation where you've been following something 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.520 happening all day, there's a shooting and like low quality 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.039 footage starts coming out of somebody killing someone or someone's else, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.160 here's what to do next if you want to maybe 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.760 be a positive part of of that, of that process, 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.359 well not of that process, but of like the aftermath 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.560 of it. You know, and and because because the universe 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.040 is cruel. I I originally wrote this road right up 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.960 about the written House shooting, UM because the universe is 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.800 a cruel place, and it's gonna, you know, continue to 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:02.719 This particular incident is going to continue to be impactful. 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.560 Even though it's not the first, it's not gonna be 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.080 the last one of these. It is still impactful because 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:08.680 of how much of a symbol has been turned into 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:12.240 So I think a lot of people forget about how 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.640 how chaotic the night on the internet was the day 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:19.360 of the Kenosha shooting. UM like it was. It was 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:24.600 wild being online as that was going on. Uh No, 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.120 one had no idea what was going on. People could 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.400 not agree on who the shooter was beforehand. There was 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.440 a lot of pictures floating around. It was it was, 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.600 it was. It was a nightmare. Uh we know, we 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:37.920 knew that people were shot, we couldn't know how many 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.080 or who. Like it was, it was pretty bad and chaotic, 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:42.680 And it is always that way in the wake of 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.760 a shooting. UM, and it is the in any given shooting. 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.599 Always keep in mind when you're when you're online or 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.520 in person and there has been a shooting and people 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.480 are saying things about said shooting other than we should 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.200 take cover from the shooting. If they're saying anything else 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.680 about it, um, you have to assume they're probably not 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.960 either wrong or not entirely accurate. Um, because it's hard 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.840 to be. It happens constantly. I mean, that's not it's 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:10.680 something against any of them. I can remember a moment 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:12.400 when you and I were out last year Garrison and 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.960 there was a shooting I don't know, like forty ft away. Um. 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.680 Nobody hurt, thankfully, but like the the immediate report from 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:21.760 it was some guy had gotten pulled an a R 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.840 fifteen out of his car and uh, and I I 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.400 think the thing I said to you was, I'll bet 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.600 you right now it's a nine millimeter handgun. And sure enough, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.120 within minutes there was a photo. Yeah. It's and it's 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.760 not that those people were like dumb or bad. It's that, 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.360 like shootings are scary, guns getting pulled is scary, and 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.880 people funk up um in in their recollections. Um. It's 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.280 the same way in which, like if a bear comes 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:51.120 after you, uh, you may exaggerate the size of that 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.640 bear in your head because you're scared as ship, because 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.600 it's a bear. Yeah. So, so I was home on 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:01.200 augustum just and I I was I was actually about 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.280 to go out to to uh cover a purchase in Portland, 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.720 but then I saw this happened on my phone on Twitter. 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.040 I was like, I cannot go out. I will be 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.160 more useful at home. Um. So, with with so much 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.560 uncertainty online or the details of the actual shooting it was, 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.160 it was clear that trying to provide concrete information would 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.480 be crucial in the hours to come. So I spowed 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.400 it up my computer and started to try to begin 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.360 to search for you know, information and and verifiable stuff. UM. 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.680 So I spent I spent all night looking looking for 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:33.600 details about the shooter you know, um, uncovering his supposed 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:38.600 identity um. Ultimately about an hour before the police announced 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.000 their investigation even started um and and twelve hours before 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.959 the police announced the shooters arrest um. And also to 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.880 my surprise at the time, I discovered that the shooter 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:55.040 was the same age as me. Um. Yeah, that was 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.840 that That was That was a night so um because 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:00.640 because I mainly used to titter and most of the 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.440 video of the instant was on Twitter, I started, uh 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.960 my my investigation by looking at Twitter. Uh my first 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.640 goal was to find as as many videos of of 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.840 the shooting that I could and collect pictures of all 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.120 of the alleged suspects, all all the people who were claiming, Hey, this, 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:17.480 this is this is the shooter. I think I think 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.080 I got a picture of the shooter who was Here's 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.679 what he is? Um. So, I I kept my eye 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.400 on trending terms. Uh So, I searched under the hashtags 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:31.280 like Kenosha, Kenosha shootings, Kanosha shooting, Kenosha protests, boogaloo was 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.680 trending a lot, A lot of people thought the shooter 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.520 was a boogaloo boy. Um was not um and also 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.480 hashtag militia. So the search has brought up a lot, 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.480 a lot of photos of of multiple young men, most 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.680 of whom were carrying long guns, and a lot of 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.480 unconfirmed reports that the shooter was a boogaloo boy was 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.720 trending on Twitter. This was the main the main thing 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.000 that night was boogloo boy shot. All the stuff that 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.320 that was the main, the main trending topic. A lot 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.080 of a lot of conflicting details, and I did not 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.160 want to kind of add the misinformation, so I decided 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.360 to not make any posts but whatsoever about the identity 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.920 of the shooter until I was one percent confident um 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:11.880 that I had the correct idea, which takes a while. 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:14.320 It's it's not you know, Twitter wants you to post 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.560 stuff quickly as soon as you find it out, and 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.600 it's way better to hold off your information and wait 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:21.840 until you are absolutely sure it's the right time to 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.400 post it. And because it's the correct, correct stuff. Because 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.559 mismismisidentifying a suspect, you can have a serious, serious consequences 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.240 for any individual um involved. It's when when the worst 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.200 things you can do is is miss misidentifying any any suspect. 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.760 So I was looking through all the videos that I 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:43.600 collected for kind of unique um or identifying clothing that 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.080 that the shooter may have been wearing. The first video 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.360 I found useful was from a right wing videographer named 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:54.160 Drew hernandez Um who a few months later called from 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:57.280 Bloodshed at the Capitol. He also testified at the Written 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.160 House trial. This video did not actually show any any 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.320 actual shooting. It had a wounded person on the ground 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.320 being treated by a medic and a man standing over 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.679 the scene with with with a gun. Um And wearing 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.840 a green shirt, a tan baseball cap, jeans, and like 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.880 purple latex gloves. He had, he had a he had 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.360 he had a black and orange bag. Um. The person 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.640 on the green shirt then runs towards the camera while 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.920 talking on the phone, and he says into the phone, UM, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.120 I just shot somebody or I just killed somebody. It's 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.800 hard to tell where he's actually saying if it's it's 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:31.160 one of those things where if you think about it, 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.920 you can hear both ones. But but he he says 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.560 something like I just killed somebody on the phone, and 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.040 he runs past the camera. So this this, this, this 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.559 was the first kind of really important piece of information 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.080 personal that was brought up in the trial too. And 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.480 he he was like, I don't remember what I said. 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.160 Oh interesting, okay, Yeah. And to be honest, like, even 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.520 if if this was I don't think any of us 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.480 believed this was legitimate self defense. But like, even if 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.880 it was, either of those things would be perfectly acceptable 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:06.680 things to say. It's a surprising momentum, and you probably 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.120 wouldn't remember what you said. I don't necessarily think he's 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.080 lying about that. It turns out he he was. He 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.080 was on the phone with the person who bought him 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.880 the gun of a friend of his. UM. So, but 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.040 but that this was my first important piece of information, 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.000 you know, the the night of Right, this is before 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.000 anyone's analyzed any of this stuff. So this is the 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.120 first video that I can find it. Like, Okay, here's 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.280 a person admitting on camera that they shot somebody. Um, 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.680 and we're wearing a few potential identifiers, namely the green shirt, 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.640 baseball cap, and bag. Um. So now I can search 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.600 for all of those items together and the rest of 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.280 the footage collected throughout the night. Looking over the top 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.280 viral videos of the night showing multiple people getting shot. Uh, 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.960 this is from this is from later on. After the 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.480 first person gets killed, we can see someone in a 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:54.440 baseball cap, black and oaunch bag and what could be 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:59.199 a green shirt running through a street. Um. Somebody runs 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:00.960 over to the individual with the gun and kind of 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.199 punches them in the head, not knocking his hat off. 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:05.640 So now the person running with the gun does not 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.840 have a hat. Individual with the gun, he keeps running, 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.320 but trips and falls on the ground before people try 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.360 to disarm him. Uh. Four more shots are fired from 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.320 the suspect, and uh. One more person dies as a 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:22.280 result of this, other person gets their arm nearly blown off. Uh. 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:24.920 There is one continuous video of all of this happening. 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:30.600 Extremely useful having having one video of this whole shot. Yeah. Um, 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.040 So the shooter, who appears to be the same person 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.200 is the other video because of the green shirt and 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.720 the hat at the beginning, continues to get onto his 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:44.280 feet and runs off again. Uh. And the orange orangine orangine, 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.760 a black bag swings in front of him as he's running, 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:51.840 and a purple glove is also visible. Multiple vehicles drive past, 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.800 like police vehicles. Um. The shooter then walks up pretty 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.200 close to the police vehicle and he just he just 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.880 he just with with with the rife and nothing, nothing happens. 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.760 He he like he wait, he waves to the cops 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.520 and they just keep driving and he walks away. So 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.560 after finding watching these videos I had, I had no 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.800 reason to believe the shooter was in custody. Um, and 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:14.800 I had a good idea of his clothing and attire. 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.120 So it's time to you know, compare this information that 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.840 I gathered, uh two pictures of the supposed you know, 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:25.320 suspects circulating on Twitter. Um. But but first I think, uh, 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:29.480 now it's it's the time to listen to people selling 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:33.800 new stuff. You know who doesn't oh boy trampled to 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.440 another state to show up armed in a community to 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.000 threaten people. They don't do it. I'm saying they don't. 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.680 That's good, okay, all right? The products and services who 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:54.000 support Hello Fresh black Liffe p Actually, a number of 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.160 our sponsors will show up unwanted in your community armed. 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.400 I forgot the Washington State Highway and the I have 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.960 both dropped dads now well also, you know a highway 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.160 patrol to forget about those motherfuckers like Kyle Rittenhouse. A 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.680 number of our sponsors may show up in your home 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.480 neighborhood with another one also, Black Life Coffee, Kyle's favorite 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.560 brand of coffee. Remember, well it was until they disavowed him. 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.720 An here's here's the ads. Here's the ones that pay. 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:27.360 We're bad. So there was there was a lot of 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.440 pictures of suspects on Twitter, some of them who look 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.920 nothing like the person we now know who shot those people. 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.040 Um funny how that happens. It's uh, well, it's not funny. 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:43.520 It's it's pretty pretty pretty pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, it's 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.160 it's not great just to share stuff like like that 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.200 when these things happened. Um, which is why I said 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.520 I'm not gonna share anything until no. UM, I know 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.560 that it's it's it's actually worth posting about. So in uh, 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.000 I'm gonna go through go through some some some of 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.160 the pictures and stuff of of I'm going through at 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:03.960 least one of the pictures of one of the people 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:08.640 people claimed to be the shooter. So in one picture circulating, 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.200 you see someone in a green shirt, a baseball cap, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.800 and big, big, big black rifle. But this man's also 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.760 wearing shorts of a black hat, not a tan. One 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:21.040 has no bag, appears to be wearing like a tactile 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.360 vest that is also green. So not the guy, even 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.160 though he's wearing a green shirt and hat, not the 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.040 same dude. Was be pretty easy to check not you 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:31.800 don't really don't need to share that kind of stuff. 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.720 Pretty sure, Pretty sure a lot of people own green shirts, yea. 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.760 So two other photos that were circulating, they were claiming 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:41.720 to be the guy. We had a green shirt, a 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.960 tan baseball cap put on backwards jeans. Um. One of 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.920 the one of the pictures has a bag in front 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:50.760 of which is an orange and black one. Where one 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.840 of them doesn't. One picture has purple gloves of the 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:59.200 picture doesn't. But these dudes look pretty similar despite the 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.240 same differences. I'm pretty sure this is this is this, 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.000 This is the same guy. But you know, I'm a 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.320 decision at the night, so this is probably the same dude. 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:07.960 Um And he does appear to match the shooter a 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.000 lot better. And there was a few few clear fixed 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.920 pictures of his face um here, But honestly, the face 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.159 of if if you look at all the pictures of 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.960 the Connection shooting that night, the pictures of the suspect 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.719 are really unclear because the way that the light hit 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.800 his face, he looks like an incredibly generic white boy. 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.960 Um like, extremely generic. It is hard to tell any 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.720 any I identifying features from his face because they look 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:38.000 like he looks like every every white every white boy. 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.320 It's really hard to say everyone you went to high 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:46.160 school with, who I don't know sniffed a girl's chair 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:52.760 when he likes that's that's Kyle Rittenhouse. Such a visual 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.040 Now that I decided that I have, like, I have 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.040 a decent collection of pictures of who I believe the 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:00.160 actual actual suspect is time time time to figure out 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.320 who the suspects like name actually is and this is 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:05.000 This is one of the one of the harder things, 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:06.960 but often you can have a lot of help in 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:11.600 ways that you might not expect. Um Often, once you 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.560 can get a good picture of someone you know, be like, yeah, yes, 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.240 this this is actually the dude. Once it gets shared enough, 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:19.879 often somebody knows who this is already. You know, the 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.760 internet is a pretty big place. I believe the first 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.879 I believe the first person to actually like like I 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.880 was I was the person to like prove online who 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.000 who d written that kuy Right knows was the shooter. 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.080 The first person to actually tie Kyle's name to the 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:39.359 shooter UM was a neighbor of his on Facebook. UM. 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:43.800 They they saw pictures of the shooter on on Facebook 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.160 and said, hey, I think this I think I recognized 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.240 this guy. I think I think this is my neighbor. UM. 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.440 So often, once you start, once you have like enough 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:54.280 pictures and those can spread, people will feel to find names. 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.720 It isn't as hard as you would think that. The 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:00.959 hard part is is finding out what personal connections are 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.720 making those links and finding out where where where those are. 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.400 But stuff, stuff spreads in a weird way and right 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.000 for this. You know, I find I was able to 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.199 prove that it was Kyle pretty quickly. Um, for a 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.359 few reasons. So after I was doing my my my 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.359 clothing comparisons to figure out this is to prove, like 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.200 he said, this is the actual person who who did 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.800 these things. Um. The other thing I I found that 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.119 was not it was not viral at all, um, but 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.280 just because I was digging through so much stuff, was 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:37.879 this meme shared by uh I by some like small 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.560 boogaloo account. Um. It was a picture of the shooter. 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:47.160 Uh compare right beside a collection of Blue Lives Matter 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:50.800 pictures of someone who looks kind of similar, linking to 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.320 a Facebook page or not not linking it was it 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.359 was it was screenshot from the Facebook page. And I 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:58.520 can tell because of the font. And it was, like 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.120 I said, like a written house is photos. So this 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:03.840 was the first This is the first thing I saw 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:08.240 on the like buried deep inside like Twitter's, Twitter's, Twitter's images. 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.879 But by using all of like these a hashtag terms 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:12.920 was this meme and and and then the meme said 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:15.919 so y'all think he's still a boogaloo. No, No, he 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.679 wasn't but because because of all of the pro police stuff, 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:23.960 because boogleos generally are not not that fond fond of police. 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:31.560 Yeah so so yeah, um, given given. So you know, 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.840 if someone was to look at this, you know, look 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.359 at this meme itself, he's like, okay, you know, the 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.680 job was done. You know information, this dude looks vaguely 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:46.040 similar ish to the guy on this written house Facebook. Um, 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.960 the gun looks kind of similar because one of the 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.919 pictures of the Facebook was it was a guy holding 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:54.560 was a guy holding in a r um. But you know, 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.040 just something looking similar or even holding a similar gun 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:00.840 in one picture from a Facebook account. That's not enough 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.919 to be sure about publishing a positive I d that 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.960 there's there's there's no actual really, there's no like definitive 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:09.479 proof there because honestly, if I was to look at 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.760 these two guys faces, they don't look incredibly similar because 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:15.760 faces can distort it with lighting and compression that it's it's, 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.439 it's it's. It can be really difficult. And this is 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:20.639 where you know, trying to idea shooter is hard and 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:24.480 requires complex judgment. Calls and posting in accurate information or 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.320 like incomplete information, um can have you know, extremely harmful effects, 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:29.879 and there's there's a lot a lot of examples of 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:33.200 this happening in the past. You know, probably the biggest example, 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.679 or the most notorious one of false identification is the 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:40.560 Boston bombing incident. Um. So, you know, right after the 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:43.840 right after thirteen bombing, you know, thousands of users on 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.600 sites like Reddit and four chan became combing through footage 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:49.800 to try to identify potential suspects screen caps of the 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.879 people they deemed suspicious when viral online on on various 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.119 social media sites. Unfortunately, the slew thing work done on 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:00.760 four Chan and Reddit was incredibly shoddy um and seemingly 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.080 had way more to do with like racial paranoia than 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:07.399 actual detective work and evidence gathering. The New York Post 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.959 subsequently published a picture on front page that that originated 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.520 on Reddit, that users had declared that that was showing 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:18.480 the two suspects with without doing any further verification. So 0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.399 it's it's it's real bad how stuff can spread from 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.359 Reddit like this that's completely unverified to you know, a newspaper, 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:27.120 even as one as unreputable as the Post, that's still 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.800 a very popular paper. The Post also claimed that the 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.320 law enforcement we're looking for those two to uh two 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:38.080 individuals in that picture. UM. One of the one of 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:41.280 the people identified by the post was harassed online. UM 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.520 police police later told him just to delete his social 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:48.240 media accounts entirely because there was no use at that point. UM. 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:51.600 When the FBI did officially release photos of the unnamed suspects, 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.639 Reddit users again false he identified these people on. One 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:57.800 of the people they false he identified went went missing 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:01.879 for weeks prior UM his his family received media inquiries 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.440 about the false and verified rumors of their son's involvement. UM, 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.680 and rumors of of of involvement were spread by reporters 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:13.879 from Politico News, Squeak Newsweek, NBC News, and BuzzFeed. UM. 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.800 Eight days after the bombing, this guy was actually the bombing. 0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:19.520 This guy was actually found dead and his family said 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.480 it was a suicide. UM, it was not not one 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:25.920 of the shooters, not one of the bombers. UM. Again, 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.320 why even more than the tactics you could use to 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:33.159 try and you know, verify things online, the most useful 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:35.600 thing you can take out of this is if there 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:38.359 is a mass shooting or other active violence and people 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.280 on social media are saying it is this person, don't 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:44.000 share it. Don't just don't share it, just wait, especially 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:46.639 in sharing it if they have don't have anything to 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:48.200 verify this at all. So yeah, like I'm not gonna, 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:52.400 I'm not gonna don't again, that is the overwhelming thing. 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:54.960 We were not gonna you know. That's why you know 0:23:55.280 --> 0:24:00.639 I'm not gonna share this Kyle Rittenhouse, um boogleoo me 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.399 because there's no proof for it. It's it's it's not 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:05.600 there now. Eventually, after digging, I would realize that this 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:10.399 meme cause comes from his neighbor saying that she thinks 0:24:10.440 --> 0:24:13.239 the suspect is him. So that's that's what this meme 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:16.679 was created. Um. But still like there there there was 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:19.960 no no proof for it, so I don't I didn't 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:22.199 share it. So all the Boston bombing stuff was like 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:24.199 going through my mind as I know found this and 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:27.640 was trying to dig for dig for my details. So yeah, 0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:29.000 I knew that I could not post a name on 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:32.560 any social media um or any info until I until 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:34.840 I could prove it like without a shadow, but doubt 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.399 that this is the same person because a lot a 0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:39.720 lot of times it is possible. It just requires work 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:41.480 in time, you know, And a big part of doing 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:43.000 this on Twitter is like, you want to get it 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:44.919 out fast, so you're the first person to do it, 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:46.960 so that you know you can go vital on your 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:50.280 thread of identifying this killer, And like, no, that's not 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.000 the reason to do image verification. It's not to go 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.280 viral on a thread. It's because whenever that's your goal 0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:59.199 you're gonna do, you're gonna do shitty fast work that 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.680 is gonna end up causing some kind of horrible consequence, 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:04.919 like in the case the Boston bombing. And to be 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:07.520 even extra clear, the primary use for this that kind 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:10.080 of what you're teaching people image verification, which is something 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:13.840 that like like Belling Cat, which has been like kind 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:17.080 of a part time employer of mine. Um is an 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.719 open source journalism collective that's broken some of the biggest 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:23.520 stories in the last couple of years. And in the classes, 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.000 we teach a class on image verification. And the point 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:29.800 is just whenever someone is sharing a piece of what 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:33.480 is like supposedly breaking news based on video or images 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:35.280 that have been taken at the side of a whatever, 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:38.960 image verification tactics can help you to know whether or 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:41.960 not it's whether or not either it's true or false. 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:44.280 But also just whether or not the image the information 0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:47.200 they're presenting gives you any reason to believe it, Like 0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:52.600 it's how you might be full of shit, Like that's 0:25:52.840 --> 0:25:56.080 super important. Yeah, like that, there's there's a thing that 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:58.600 happens like and any time there's something that looks like 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:01.119 a war starting. There is like this video of a 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.120 bombing from two thousand fourteen and Gaza that goes around. Yeah, 0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:09.800 it's like every time. Yeah. Um, there's there's actually five 0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:12.679 or six different kinds of things that are like that Chris, 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:15.280 that are like, oh this is there's actually footage from 0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.639 like a Russian video game that people keep keeps getting 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:21.600 like mistaken for action combat footage, and it's like, no, 0:26:21.720 --> 0:26:23.919 it's fucking from a video game. This has been on, 0:26:24.080 --> 0:26:27.480 this has been three wars. Now. There's this famous footage 0:26:27.480 --> 0:26:30.720 of like a fucking um an air soft battle at 0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:34.320 night with glowing with soft pellets, with the glowing pellets 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:36.680 and it it kind of it kind of looks because 0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:38.200 it's black and white and not a great camera, it 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:40.639 kind of looks like tracer fire. And it's there's like 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:42.639 three Wars that people have said like look, this is 0:26:42.720 --> 0:26:46.240 still combat footage from it happens all the time. And 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:49.919 again great account to follow is a hoax. I On Twitter, 0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:52.920 they do really good work pointing out just like kind 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:56.080 of more like more like less high stakes kind of 0:26:56.280 --> 0:27:00.400 image image verification stuff. Um So, but before I get 0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:03.359 into the actual like verification work of like proving, Hey, 0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:06.639 I can actually prove that that by by not just 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:08.760 someone's face, I can prove that this shooter is the 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:11.120 same guy from from from the Facebook page. Um, I'll 0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:14.360 explain that next first short short ad break, and then 0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:18.360 we will finish up with this actual proving section. Yeah 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:29.399 you know who is not Kyle? Wow? Do you have 0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:32.800 really dropped the ball out all of the transitions today. Yeah. 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.439 I am not proud of myself or my place in 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:41.879 society at the moment. Um, here's the ads. We're back. 0:27:42.280 --> 0:27:47.640 I feel terrible Garrison. And So, even even though the 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:50.840 boogloo meme was not hard evidence, uh it did, it 0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:53.800 did provide a lead. So after seeing the meme, I 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.399 did the first most obvious thing that I could see 0:27:56.760 --> 0:27:59.800 was compare the gun in the two frames. Uh they 0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:03.280 do look similar. Uh they're not. They're not identical. Uh, 0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:07.800 the optics are different for each rifle. Um. But the 0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:11.640 rest of it. But the stock, the grip um, and 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:14.480 the barrel do do seem do seem to be? Do 0:28:14.560 --> 0:28:17.200 seem to be, if not, if not identical, at least 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:19.800 extremely similar. Again, still not enough to make a positive 0:28:19.840 --> 0:28:22.959 idea on an individual basis, Like this person is its person, 0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:25.440 So that the next step is to scour the actual 0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:29.320 Facebook account itself that is alluded to in this meme 0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:33.399 and see what I can find there. The goal obviously 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:37.360 being to find statements or pictures that will tie this 0:28:37.480 --> 0:28:40.920 person in the images of the shooter to the person 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:45.200 on the account. So that's you know, clothing, location, intention, 0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:47.120 you know, all these types of things that could tie 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:49.440 the pictures of the shooter the pictures of person on 0:28:49.520 --> 0:28:53.320 on on this account. Um So, Kyle houses old public 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:57.160 Facebook profile was mainly made up of Blue Lives Matter 0:28:57.240 --> 0:29:01.520 and pro police images going back as far as twenty seventeen, UM, 0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:04.720 with a few uh then recent pictures of him holding 0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:08.760 his Air fifteen style rifle. Uh those the rifle pictures 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:12.640 were like from June. The shooting happened in late August. Um. 0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:14.640 It appears I think it came out in the trial 0:29:14.720 --> 0:29:19.920 that he got his rifle around like May um so yeah, 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:21.400 a lot of a lot of a lot of pro 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:23.720 police stuff, a lot of them blue lining, blue lives 0:29:23.760 --> 0:29:27.760 matters type things. Um. His public his his public page 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:30.800 is is relatively sparse um and there was no public 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:34.440 friends list to look through. Um. One one noteworthy piece 0:29:34.440 --> 0:29:36.680 of information was that he did he did list another 0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:41.240 name for himself as Kyle Lewis believe his mother's maiden name. 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:45.040 Sure but uh but even so, even though I wasn't 0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:47.040 able to view a friends list and there wasn't many 0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:49.880 public posts, uh, this is his page is by no 0:29:49.960 --> 0:29:52.640 means a dead end. I could still see everyone that 0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:56.640 has commented on, shared, or liked his public posts. Because 0:29:56.680 --> 0:29:58.520 like so, he did not have he he did not 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:01.360 many have any pictures himself himself on his page that 0:30:01.360 --> 0:30:03.640 that that I could use for verification. He didn't have 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:06.800 like not nothing that I could tie to the shooting 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:09.840 besides the actual guns. So not not tons of useful 0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:13.560 not tons of useful stuff. But there's perhaps there's still 0:30:13.600 --> 0:30:16.959 other other leads to look through, like everyone who's liked, shared, 0:30:17.120 --> 0:30:21.080 or uh commented on his posts. So I I opened 0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:23.120 up new tabs for every single person that interacted with 0:30:23.200 --> 0:30:26.480 Kyle's posts. While looking over their pages, I was searching 0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:28.640 to see if any of them had listed Kyle as 0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:31.480 a relative, with a focus on anyone with the last 0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:34.479 name of written House or Lewis um and and you know, 0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:37.520 ideally was looking forward to see if anyone had pictures 0:30:37.560 --> 0:30:40.720 of Kyle or someone who seems to be Kyle. Uh. 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:47.400 One post from May eighteen eventually eventually proved useful. One 0:30:47.480 --> 0:30:50.040 comment read, Kyle, you sure do look look like a Louis. 0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:53.440 So there's the alternate last name. And two people had 0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:57.160 liked that comment Kyle himself and and uh and someone 0:30:57.520 --> 0:31:01.440 who is his mom? Would you or would would later 0:31:01.520 --> 0:31:06.040 find out is his mom? Um? Uh? So she said 0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:09.720 that lived She said that she lived in Uh. Is 0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:16.480 it anatok Illinois? Antioch? Probably Antioch, Illinois, which matches uh 0:31:16.520 --> 0:31:22.400 with Kyle's uh Illinois based pro police posts. He made 0:31:22.400 --> 0:31:25.560 a lot of like Chicago Blue Lives Matter posts, so 0:31:25.720 --> 0:31:29.520 I assumed that Kyle was from Illinois. And also, um, 0:31:30.080 --> 0:31:35.360 uh Antioch is that you said whatever? Antioch to to 0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:39.360 Wiscon's Antioch to Kenosha is only like three minute drive, 0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:42.520 so that is also like okay, that's that's that's that's 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:46.440 pretty close. That is that is doable. Um, so it 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:49.680 was the next I went. I went through a lot 0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:52.480 of the relatives pages, but I'm gonna focus just on 0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:55.400 the person who I found out who was, um, Kyle's mom, 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:57.719 because they're the one that had the most useful information, right. 0:31:57.920 --> 0:32:00.440 A lot of other information I looked through just turn 0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:02.480 out to be useful, right, So I'm not not including 0:32:02.520 --> 0:32:06.720 all of that here. Um Uh. One post from from 0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:13.920 Wendy's mom uh featured a younger Kyle wearing a police outfit. Um. 0:32:13.960 --> 0:32:17.080 I'm sure people have seen this picture online before. I 0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:19.120 think I was probably I was. I was probably the 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:21.920 first person to share this photo of Kyle in this 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:26.160 in this younger Kyle wearing this this police this police costume, 0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:29.840 an unbelievably cringe e photo like side of the fact 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:33.200 that he took two lives, like just yeah, I mean 0:32:33.640 --> 0:32:36.360 we all have photos we took when while an r 0:32:36.400 --> 0:32:40.959 OTC Like so yeah, ideally we would we would give 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:43.720 there There's actually there's actually a lot more of these photos. 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:46.960 There's photos of him touring so this is this stuff. 0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:49.840 I also found that night photos of him like touring 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:52.400 a target with police as he's in a police uniform. 0:32:52.600 --> 0:32:55.960 He was part of like a police young Cadets program. 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:59.080 He he was like twelve, um, so that that's where 0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:01.200 he got this outfit. And he like tagged around with 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:03.120 police for like a day or something. And this photos 0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:06.160 of him like in a target with police. Even when 0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:09.200 I was like a shitty right winging kid, that sounded 0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:13.840 like a nightmare. So so yeah, so Kyle's the person 0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:16.920 who I figured out was Kyle's mom posted this this 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:21.880 photo of of her and Kyle, which which Kyle liked, 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:26.840 and then in another picture of another picture from from 0:33:27.240 --> 0:33:31.400 Kyle's mom, I found, uh, it's a family picture including 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:34.880 Kyle wearing what I would say is like an army 0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:38.880 green shirt kind of similar, but it's a green shirt 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.520 like I have. I have shirts that are pretty similar 0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:43.440 to that. I'm not gonna that's not gonna be anything 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:48.080 so super definitive until we got there's one one picture 0:33:48.680 --> 0:33:51.280 that that proved to be much much more, much more 0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:55.880 useful of Kyle on or someone who assumed was Kyle, 0:33:56.120 --> 0:33:57.760 you don't you don't you don't actually see his face, 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:01.520 but he is wearing a whole roably cringe e American 0:34:01.560 --> 0:34:09.640 flag crocs, which which which which was so, and and 0:34:09.800 --> 0:34:13.000 and on. On Kyle's page, there was also pictures of 0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:15.239 him wearing those same crocs. So like, even even though 0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:17.560 I can't see the person's face, the crocs the same, 0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:22.800 probably the same guy. He's also wearing a tan baseball cap. Um. 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:24.799 And on this I can actually see that it has 0:34:24.840 --> 0:34:27.600 an American flag on the front of the cap, which 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:31.080 I did not notice on anything else before. So that's, 0:34:31.120 --> 0:34:33.919 you know, that's something different. But again not that that's 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:35.800 that's not that's not that's not like a red flag. 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:38.520 That's just you know, a thing to a thing of note. 0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:42.960 Um because the baseball cap is tan um and it 0:34:43.000 --> 0:34:46.560 has like white mesh on the sides. Um. The one. 0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:49.440 The one thing I did, I did make one post 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:52.719 before I actually did any kind of I claiming to 0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:56.200 do I identity stuff. I did ask my Twitter followers 0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:59.240 if there's any pictures of the back of the Shooters 0:34:59.320 --> 0:35:02.960 cap um, and I got them to to send me those, 0:35:03.320 --> 0:35:05.840 and then I got one picture of of the back 0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:09.040 that actually has uh I couldn't see, like, Okay, the 0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:11.640 back of the Shooters cap also has the flag on it, 0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:14.759 so I was able to actually show that. Okay, So 0:35:15.120 --> 0:35:18.480 the baseball cap on the back of it. Uh, but 0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:20.399 they're both tann baseball caps, they both have white mesh 0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:22.560 in the side, they both have to have an American flag. 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:25.480 And then I got another picture that was even closer 0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:29.879 that showed a tear on the brim of the hat. 0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:32.840 And if you zoom in on one of the beach pictures, 0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:35.320 you could also see a tear on the same position 0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:39.640 on the hat. So this is this hat? Is the 0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:42.319 hat is the same hat? The hat was definitely it 0:35:42.400 --> 0:35:46.640 was definitely in both locations. So at this point, based 0:35:46.680 --> 0:35:49.799 on the gun, based on the hat, based on the 0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:53.400 location being very close to kenosha Um and being closed 0:35:53.440 --> 0:35:57.920 on the rough facial similarities, um, there was there was 0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:03.120 enough enough to enough to to um enough to put 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:05.919 put stuff together to be like, Okay, I I think 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:09.680 I think this is this is probably this is probably 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:13.759 fine in saying I think this is probably the dude. Um. 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:16.799 So at this point I wasn't. I wasn't. Again, I'm 0:36:16.800 --> 0:36:19.080 not gonna post this immediately, and I'm not gonna post 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:21.160 something by saying this is who it is without providing 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:23.560 the evidence. So instead of like writting a thread tweet 0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:25.640 by tweet, I read the whole thread out and then 0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:28.120 tweet the whole thread at the same time. Um so, 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:31.280 so I put it on the thread documenting my relevant stuff. 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:34.839 Um I I wrote the first eight posts the same 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:37.719 time and posted them together with all the evidence of uploaded. 0:36:37.920 --> 0:36:40.880 Um and then and then, Uh, as I was writing 0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:43.200 the threat, I came across another piece of evidence. There 0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:46.040 was one I was going through one of the live 0:36:46.120 --> 0:36:48.960 streams of of that night from a channel called the 0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:51.839 Rundown Live, which I've not heard anything of before or 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:54.279 since then. Um, but you know one of the many 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:58.759 streamers that were out, um, and you can see you 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:01.960 can see Kyle in the frame and then like pans away, 0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:05.399 but the people are still talking. Um so, so Kyle 0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:08.920 Kyle is actually off camera now, um but he I 0:37:08.920 --> 0:37:11.160 think someone like asks him his name and he and 0:37:11.320 --> 0:37:14.000 the person who I think is Kyle replies Kyle. Now, 0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:16.319 of course it's off camera, so it's not you can't 0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:19.640 be totally sure. There's there's enough context clues and that 0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:22.799 plus only other evidence. I'm like, Okay, this is enough 0:37:22.840 --> 0:37:25.160 to add to the thread because it again it's it's 0:37:25.160 --> 0:37:27.920 not enough proof by itself, but it combined with everything 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:32.319 else completes a much fuller picture. So I posted my 0:37:32.480 --> 0:37:37.640 like niner yeah like eight or nine thing thread on 0:37:37.880 --> 0:37:40.600 being able to prove its Kyle via you know, comparing 0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:44.120 stuff like the gun, uh, the hat, the shirt, and 0:37:44.360 --> 0:37:47.279 demonstrating my work tracking across Facebook and how it's able 0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:50.359 to like link these two people together. Um. Twenty two 0:37:50.360 --> 0:37:53.280 minutes after I posted the threat identifying Kyle Kosha, police 0:37:53.800 --> 0:37:57.720 announced that they were that they were starting an active investigation. UM. 0:37:57.800 --> 0:38:00.880 I soon added a court document to my read about 0:38:00.920 --> 0:38:05.040 a traffic violation UH by someone named cow written house, 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:08.480 filed a few days before the shooting. The traffic violation 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:12.000 thing also included stuff like address, which I I I 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:14.279 blacked out the addressed for that just because sharing the 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:18.840 sharing for reasons I'll explain, because again, if it's if 0:38:18.840 --> 0:38:20.719 it's a it's a track of violation, if people really 0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:22.960 want it, they can't find it themselves, right, it's it's 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.560 not making impossible to find it. And this was able 0:38:25.600 --> 0:38:27.680 to confirm it. It was in the same location um 0:38:27.880 --> 0:38:32.520 antioch um. And also this this proved that Kyle was 0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:35.640 seventeen at the time. Uh. This is how we knew 0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:38.279 that he was seventeen years old. At the time of 0:38:38.280 --> 0:38:42.640 the shooting was because of this traffic violation document found online. 0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:47.600 So the the address on the violation document was the 0:38:47.680 --> 0:38:50.680 same one I had linked to Kyle's mom. By doing 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:53.239 other like ocean address work, I was able to find 0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:59.120 out where what what her address was. UM. So so yeah, 0:38:59.160 --> 0:39:02.120 that was that was most to my work that night. Uh. 0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:07.160 It took about I don't know, like two sh maybe 0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:10.839 you know, it's hard, it's hard to break up. Uh, 0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:14.120 it's timing it. It took about half an hour to 0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:17.880 get from the boogaloo meme to finding the matching baseball 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:21.640 cap on on Kyle's mom's Facebook page, about another half 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:23.919 hour to write out the thread, and you know, about 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:25.920 an hour of work previous to that about you know, 0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:28.279 trying to find out the actual you know, footage and 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:31.240 categorize it. And Okay, this is the clothing he's wearing. 0:39:31.400 --> 0:39:32.759 Here's the clothes I I need to look for on 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:35.000 social media right see see see see if I can 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:38.080 find these shoes, these pants, this, this shirt, this hat, 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:40.440 this bag, that kind of stuff. Um, and I was 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:42.719 able to find enough of those items to make it 0:39:42.760 --> 0:39:45.600 pretty pretty clear that it was it was you know, 0:39:45.960 --> 0:39:49.840 linked Um and that makes you, Garrison, one of the 0:39:49.920 --> 0:39:54.960 first people in the world to get to no way 0:39:55.000 --> 0:39:58.040 more about Kyle Rittenhouse than you ever wanted to know. Yeah, 0:39:58.200 --> 0:40:00.880 a lot more. This nightmare has been going on longer 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:09.360 for you than yeah. And so I want to know 0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:12.000 a few other ways to do image verifications, specifically on 0:40:12.080 --> 0:40:14.279 Kyle that that I didn't do, but other people did 0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:17.120 after after I after I said, hey, this is part 0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:20.600 of the guy. So afterwards people found other kind of 0:40:20.600 --> 0:40:25.000 evidence on Kyle's TikTok um and snapchat. So it turns 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:29.560 out Kyle was snapchatting his night in Wisconsin, um, which 0:40:29.560 --> 0:40:32.480 we would find out later, So he was that he 0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:36.799 was snapchatting from kenosha Um and Garrison. First off, I 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:41.200 do feel as the representative of zoomers in in this call. 0:40:41.200 --> 0:40:43.879 Why are you Why are you guys all using the snapchats? Huh? 0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:47.080 I don't use I don't use the snapchats. Um. Well, 0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:49.520 I'm making you answer for the crimes of your generation, 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:55.799 the crimes like the snap Now. Well, technically speaking, I 0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:58.400 have one friend who I only talked to you through snapchat, 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:00.200 and we both only use it for that and we 0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:02.600 don't know why we use Snapchat. Yeah, there's a few 0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:05.440 people who are like Snapchat, people who only text or snapchat, 0:41:05.480 --> 0:41:07.399 and I don't. I don't get it. Yeah, except neither 0:41:07.440 --> 0:41:10.520 of us are like that. We just specifically I just 0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:14.640 got a signal anyway, So yeah, Snapchat. There's also uh 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:18.680 TikTok Um. There was a footage of of Kyle attending 0:41:18.719 --> 0:41:23.560 a Trump rally at TikTok also him like assembling and 0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:27.160 testing out his gun was on a Snapchat. I believe 0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:30.120 eclips that it were also shared on TikTok so I 0:41:30.160 --> 0:41:32.200 could have got a lot more closer details of the 0:41:32.239 --> 0:41:35.920 gun if if I looked on if if on Snapchat 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.200 or our TikTok Um, and I think, if this is 0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:41.239 this is a good advice that I've taken since then, 0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:43.359 and for other people looking to do this stuff. If 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:46.600 if a suspect looks as young, um, you know, Snapchat 0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:48.799 and TikTok might be or and and Instagram might be 0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:51.800 apps that are worth are worth checking out for information 0:41:52.120 --> 0:41:55.680 as opposed to like Facebook. Right, lucky, lucky enough, there 0:41:55.680 --> 0:41:58.760 was enough stuff on Facebook on this instance, typically probably 0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:01.279 because no, Kyle's family was come servative so and he 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:03.919 was conservative, so higher chance of being on Facebook there. 0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:06.880 But you know, in general, if someone's younger and maybe 0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:12.400 look on younger apps. Um but yeah, UM, so you know, 0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:14.719 good thing to think about. You know, whenever these like 0:42:14.800 --> 0:42:19.200 chaotic panics moments happen, you know, missifferation can spread very 0:42:19.400 --> 0:42:22.480 very quickly. UM. Cannot stress enough how dangerous and irresponsible 0:42:22.520 --> 0:42:26.920 it is when a suspect is named without proper verification. UM. 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:30.959 You know. Uh, last last September, uh Ean Miles Chung 0:42:31.600 --> 0:42:34.200 falsely identified a suspect in the shooting of two l 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:37.560 A police officers. Of this resulted in the falsely accused 0:42:37.600 --> 0:42:40.520 got a man and receiving many death threats online. I 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:43.439 think emails Chonging did this like again a few months later. 0:42:43.760 --> 0:42:46.200 He he was doing this a lot last year he 0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:48.279 was doing it. He was really bad about trying to 0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:52.279 identify people. Um. But you know, doing solid solidarification work 0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:55.359 is possible, but extreme caution needs to be taken. UM. 0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:57.600 I need to be very mindful of the consequences of 0:42:57.600 --> 0:42:59.840 your actions when when you're doing this work. Yeah, I 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:02.000 want to put out Garrison is very good at this 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:04.800 that that's why it took two hours and a half hours. 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:07.080 It's going to take it takes a lot longer. Yeah, 0:43:07.120 --> 0:43:10.160 Like honestly, like I was like it. Finding Kyle was 0:43:10.200 --> 0:43:13.440 just the right mix of things in one moment. Often 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:15.560 it doesn't. Often it doesn't go that fast, and it 0:43:15.760 --> 0:43:17.840 doesn't need to be right like A big big of 0:43:17.840 --> 0:43:20.080 the problem is that if people think about it needing 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:21.960 to be like a fast paced thing, that's where that 0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:24.680 that's where the mistakes happen. I was just lucky to 0:43:24.719 --> 0:43:27.160 have enough like dominoes follow in the right place too. 0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:31.520 I identify how the night of having having his neighbor say, hey, 0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:34.719 this guy looks similar to my neighbor, extremely useful in 0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:36.640 in in in the long run, right like that that 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:38.640 happened faster than that happens in a lot of cases, 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:42.560 So that really accelerated things. Sometimes it will be easy 0:43:42.680 --> 0:43:45.360 sometimes like a good example of when it's harder. We 0:43:45.440 --> 0:43:48.359 have a decent amount of footage about the individual who 0:43:48.360 --> 0:43:52.120 placed bombs outside of the Capital Bomber before the sixth 0:43:52.760 --> 0:43:55.640 um That person has not been identified and the FBI 0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:58.040 seems to have no goddamn clue. But also what they 0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:02.160 were way more intentional. They were very smart whoever they are, 0:44:02.200 --> 0:44:06.200 they're very capable. They were the only thing on them 0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:08.360 is their shoes. Basically those are those are kind of 0:44:08.400 --> 0:44:10.959 the polls of this right on one. Like that with 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:13.439 with Rittenhouse, you've got this situation where it's like all 0:44:13.480 --> 0:44:16.399 of the information you need to identify them is there 0:44:16.440 --> 0:44:20.359 openly online. UM. And part of ops sex if you're 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:24.040 doing things that are crimes UM is to make sure 0:44:24.080 --> 0:44:26.719 that is to limit that that that whatever it is 0:44:26.840 --> 0:44:30.560 you are going to to the to the crimes in UM. 0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:33.200 There nothing exists on the internet that connects that to 0:44:33.280 --> 0:44:35.600 your name and face, and that that doesn't That doesn't 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:39.120 always mean black block, that can mean other clothing, especially 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:41.960 if you've been photographed in black block of books. I 0:44:42.000 --> 0:44:44.040 think like if you look at if you look at um, 0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:46.839 the guy who dropped off bombs at January six, he's 0:44:46.840 --> 0:44:49.200 not wearing black block because black block draws attention. He's 0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:55.120 wearing like grays. He's he's wearing like that guy that well, 0:44:55.200 --> 0:44:58.760 that individual person is either a former FED or former 0:44:59.360 --> 0:45:03.960 special for they were very capable, leaning towards FED, who 0:45:04.360 --> 0:45:07.160 showed up in clothing they had never weren't worn before 0:45:07.239 --> 0:45:10.360 and paid for used in cash, probably from a variety 0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.839 of places. UM. That clothing was burned as soon as 0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:17.399 they got away. They were out of the state as 0:45:17.440 --> 0:45:19.640 early as it was possible to do so, plant them 0:45:19.640 --> 0:45:22.680 and then immediately get out like um. And you know, 0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:24.319 by the time the capitol, right by the time their 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:26.640 bombs had been found, they were they were if they 0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:31.560 were smartly gone, you know, like that's how anyway whatever, 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:35.480 like like oftentimes they can be if someone knows what 0:45:35.480 --> 0:45:37.880 they're doing, this this process could be a lot harder, 0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:39.880 like in the case of the people of of the 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:43.440 guy who left the bombs at the capitol. Um. You know, Kyle, 0:45:43.640 --> 0:45:46.160 it was not you know, wasn't wearing much identified clothing, 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:50.160 wasn't even wearing a mask because COVID was for cox um. 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:52.080 So you know, there's a lot of these things that 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:55.279 that made this process, um, you know, easier than a 0:45:55.320 --> 0:45:57.799 lot of a lot of other verifications. But like I said, 0:45:57.840 --> 0:46:00.200 there still was a lot of false ideas going round 0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:04.080 that night. Um kind of still happens. I'm kind of 0:46:04.120 --> 0:46:06.160 on the fence myself as to whether or not it 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:09.759 would have been safer like for our country or the 0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:12.400 society or whatever you want to call it. If um, 0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:14.680 like how much more damnage or less damage would have 0:46:14.680 --> 0:46:17.760 been done if Kyle Rittenhouse had been someone who showed 0:46:17.840 --> 0:46:21.960 up in impeccable like clothing that he could not be 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:25.160 identified from, fucking ran off and was never caught, and 0:46:25.200 --> 0:46:27.360 we just knew there was the shooting of protesters in 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:31.839 Kenosha um by somebody. UM, Like, I don't know how 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:34.560 much better or worse that is for society if that happens. 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:39.440 I don't know. I'm thinking about terrible things. But sorry, 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:42.160 first off, I want to apologize. Sometimes talking about this 0:46:42.200 --> 0:46:45.440 stuff winds up seeming like advice for how to commit crimes. 0:46:45.880 --> 0:46:47.879 That's not the intent. It's just when you talk about 0:46:47.920 --> 0:46:51.000 what makes something difficult to identify, your kind of by 0:46:51.000 --> 0:46:53.480 default talking about like here's how to here's how to 0:46:53.560 --> 0:46:57.200 get commit a crime and get away with it, um. 0:46:57.239 --> 0:46:58.719 And it's the kind of thing like if you're doing 0:46:58.800 --> 0:47:01.160 verification work, one of the things that helps is to 0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:04.480 kind of put yourself in the mindset of somebody who, Okay, 0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:07.120 if I'm in this situation and I do this, um, 0:47:07.200 --> 0:47:10.320 what are the decisions that I might make afterwards? Um? 0:47:10.400 --> 0:47:13.759 And you can kind of try to uh think through 0:47:14.040 --> 0:47:16.120 this person like it can be helpful, especially if you're 0:47:16.120 --> 0:47:18.680 trying to like track someone through a day. So you know, 0:47:18.760 --> 0:47:21.000 someone was at this point at a protest at x 0:47:21.080 --> 0:47:25.279 hour because they shot somebody. Um, you know, think through. Okay, 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:27.440 what else happened that day? Where there other protests? Where 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:30.080 there other gatherings like or is this one in a 0:47:30.160 --> 0:47:32.560 series of events? Can I go look for you know, 0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:36.040 videos from other things in the area that this person 0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:37.799 might have also been at and might have warned the 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:42.640 same clothing. Um, there's anyway. Image verification is fun, catch 0:47:42.680 --> 0:47:45.359 the fever. It is. It is a fun thing to do. 0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:47.120 It's good to if if if you're not able to 0:47:47.160 --> 0:47:50.360 attend in person demos for like like physical reasons or whatever, 0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:52.840 or like mental reasons, doing the stuff from home is 0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:56.120 is another way of getting involved, especially already not tracking 0:47:56.160 --> 0:48:00.359 down bad people after the after they do bad things. Yeah, 0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:05.399 so you can, you know, if you want to learn 0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:08.160 more about this with you know, the benefit of also 0:48:09.640 --> 0:48:12.759 visual aids um belling cat has if you just type 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:19.320 image verification belling cat. There's beginners and advanced guides to verification. Um, 0:48:19.360 --> 0:48:22.560 there's talk about like manual reverse image search tools and 0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:26.600 like how well they work. There's quizzes, So go go 0:48:26.680 --> 0:48:30.360 there if you if you find this interesting, um, it 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:34.319 can be quite a hoot. UM. But you know what 0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:37.439 else is quite a hoot ending a goddamn podcast, which 0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:48.200 I'm doing. Now we're done, goodbye. I call the Union 0:48:48.200 --> 0:48:51.399 Hall as his male life and death. I think these 0:48:51.440 --> 0:48:54.719 people of planning to kill Dr King. On April four, 0:48:56.160 --> 0:48:58.640 Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis. 0:48:58.920 --> 0:49:02.239 A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He 0:49:02.360 --> 0:49:04.560 pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of 0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:09.840 his life in prison. Case closed right, James L. Ray 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:14.360 was a pond for the official story the authorities would 0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:17.320 parade at all We found a gun the James L. 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:21.440 Ray bought in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it 0:49:21.520 --> 0:49:23.920 wasn't the gun that killed Dr King. One of the 0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:27.440 problems that came out when I got the Ray case 0:49:28.120 --> 0:49:31.040 was that some of the evidence, as far as I 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:35.120 was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the 0:49:35.239 --> 0:49:39.160 MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on 0:49:39.200 --> 0:49:42.319 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:47.919 get your podcasts. Hay Lee, the listeners take here. Last 0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:50.960 season on Lethal Lit, you might remember I came to 0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:54.839 Hollow Falls on a mission clearing my aunt best name 0:49:55.560 --> 0:50:00.000 and making sure justice was finally served. But I hadn't 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:03.320 counted on a rash of new murders tearing apart the town. 0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:08.040 My mission put myself and my friends in danger, though 0:50:08.440 --> 0:50:11.640 it wasn't all bad. I'm going to be real. If 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:15.920 you tig I like you. But now all signs point 0:50:15.960 --> 0:50:19.200 to a new serial killer in Hollow Falls. If this 0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:22.600 game is just starting, you better believe I'm gonna win. 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:28.879 I'm tig Torres and this is Lethal Lit. Catch up 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:31.640 on season one of the hit murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit, 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:34.440 a tig Torre's mystery out now, and then tune in 0:50:34.520 --> 0:50:37.280 for all new thrills in season two, dropping weekly starting 0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:40.640 February nine. Subscribe now to never miss an episode. Listen 0:50:40.680 --> 0:50:42.479 to Leave the Lit on the I Heart Radio app, 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:46.960 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm 0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:49.640 Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the hosts 0:50:49.680 --> 0:50:52.479 of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind, where 0:50:52.480 --> 0:50:54.719 every week we get to explore some of the weirdest 0:50:54.800 --> 0:50:59.040 questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation was possible, 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:02.000 how would it square with the multitudes of organisms that 0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:05.279 inhabit our human bodies. Can we find evidence of emotions 0:51:05.320 --> 0:51:09.000 in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How would it 0:51:09.120 --> 0:51:13.919 interplanetary civilization function? Just free will exist. Stuff to Blow 0:51:13.960 --> 0:51:19.600 Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and 0:51:19.640 --> 0:51:22.560 the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is the 0:51:22.600 --> 0:51:26.280 altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If anybody 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:29.600 ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it is 0:51:29.640 --> 0:51:32.080 time to come join us in the place where you belong. 0:51:32.440 --> 0:51:35.800 The Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast New episodes publish 0:51:35.800 --> 0:51:39.680 every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays. Listen 0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:41.279 to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I Heart 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:50.279 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:51:50.280 --> 0:51:59.719 Welcome to America. That's not great here podcast is here 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:04.040 a podcast? Welcome it is. If you're an international listener 0:52:04.080 --> 0:52:06.480 and you're not American, that was really get the fuck 0:52:06.600 --> 0:52:09.680 off of our podcast. Just like left people all like, 0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:12.560 are you going to do one for every other country? 0:52:12.719 --> 0:52:14.920 I think they're being rude for barging in the Internet 0:52:15.000 --> 0:52:18.120 is clearly American soil. I would pay good money for 0:52:18.200 --> 0:52:21.560 a wacko things. But with Robert saying all the all 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:27.200 the countries of the world, well, you know what you 0:52:27.239 --> 0:52:28.839 need to do in order to be able to pay 0:52:28.880 --> 0:52:31.759 good money for something, Garrison. You need to you need to. 0:52:31.840 --> 0:52:35.160 You need to get money by by working well to 0:52:35.239 --> 0:52:37.759 be born rich. But if you're not born rich, you 0:52:37.840 --> 0:52:40.720 have to work. And a lot of people are saying 0:52:41.080 --> 0:52:44.080 what if we did, what if we didn't? And now 0:52:44.120 --> 0:52:46.319 they have a subreddit and that's what we're talking about 0:52:46.360 --> 0:52:50.080 today anti work. Uh, not just the subreddit, but that's 0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:52.759 why we're talking about it today, because the anti work 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:56.120 subreddit has grown hugely um and it's got like a 0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:58.440 milli it's or it's it's like doubled. It's been around 0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:03.240 for years. It's more than bold, it's it's almost it's almost. Yeah, 0:53:03.320 --> 0:53:05.520 it's it's it's great. Well, well I'll I'll have the 0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:08.200 numbers for later. Yeah, yeah, okay, great. Um, So, Garrison, 0:53:08.239 --> 0:53:10.359 why don't you kick us off now that I've let 0:53:10.400 --> 0:53:13.960 everyone know what to expect, will stop working um in 0:53:14.080 --> 0:53:18.160 solidarity with the anti work movement. Thanks Robert, Um, You're welcome. 0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:21.720 So yeah, if the past few months, if you're anything 0:53:21.760 --> 0:53:24.360 like us, um and and if you're online in the 0:53:24.400 --> 0:53:26.719 same ways that we are, you've you've probably seen like 0:53:26.760 --> 0:53:31.840 a flurry of posts and screenshots depicting text conversations between 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:35.360 like an employee and their boss. Typically, the boss like 0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:37.359 asks them to come in when they said they were 0:53:37.360 --> 0:53:38.920 going to have to be have to have having to 0:53:38.960 --> 0:53:42.560 have time off or something. The employee objects, the boston 0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:45.120 gets mad and makes threats and demands the employee be 0:53:45.160 --> 0:53:48.279 a better team player or some bullshit like that, um 0:53:48.360 --> 0:53:51.239 and and then like the employee said something like, well, 0:53:51.360 --> 0:53:53.400 you know what, actually I quit, good luck filling the 0:53:53.400 --> 0:53:56.600 shift now buy and then the boss like pleads that 0:53:56.640 --> 0:53:59.799 the now former employee comes back and offers like concessions 0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:02.640 and end of screenshots. So pretty soon this type of 0:54:02.640 --> 0:54:07.480 like screenshotted text conversation became like a meme format with 0:54:07.480 --> 0:54:10.560 with people joking and obviously like staging fake ones as well. 0:54:11.080 --> 0:54:13.799 Uh you know, similar to the scene I just described 0:54:14.120 --> 0:54:17.440 but but but by all accounts, this trend started incredibly 0:54:17.480 --> 0:54:21.560 like sincerely with with genuine text conversations showcasing like worker 0:54:21.600 --> 0:54:25.759 abuse um and and uh, you know, bosses being unreasonable 0:54:25.840 --> 0:54:28.680 and cruel um and some people putting their jobs just 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:31.520 to stand up for themselves. And um, all the stuff 0:54:31.560 --> 0:54:33.759 is kind of tied up in the worker shortage kind 0:54:33.760 --> 0:54:36.799 of miss the great resignation as a as a lot 0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:40.640 of pundits, yes, yeah, people of people resigning. And then 0:54:40.680 --> 0:54:42.680 you know a lot of like big companies complaining about 0:54:42.719 --> 0:54:47.399 worker shortages. Um. And and central to this like text conversation, 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:52.360 online kind of meme trend thing and and employee resignations 0:54:52.560 --> 0:54:56.600 is a sub credit called anti work. So the antiwork 0:54:56.600 --> 0:54:58.880 stub breddit has has been a growing place specifically the 0:54:58.920 --> 0:55:03.319 past year. UM. Their motto is unemployment for all, not 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:06.560 just for the rich. Uh. It's a it's a good mode. 0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:09.120 Good it is. It is a solid it's a solid 0:55:09.160 --> 0:55:13.799 botto of their their their own like a description is 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:16.520 uh a subundit for those who want to end work, 0:55:16.560 --> 0:55:18.799 are curious about ending work, want to get the most 0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:21.040 out of a work free life, want more information on 0:55:21.080 --> 0:55:24.160 anti work ideas, and want personal help with their own 0:55:24.280 --> 0:55:28.799 jobs slash work related struggles. So back in back in February, 0:55:29.120 --> 0:55:33.600 um it only the subwart it's been around, but back 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:36.640 in February it had like two hundred and thirty five 0:55:36.719 --> 0:55:40.319 thousand UM subs and now it has over one point 0:55:40.320 --> 0:55:43.359 one million um it's grown. Most of that growth has 0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:45.880 been in the past two months. Uh. It's in his 0:55:46.080 --> 0:55:49.360 kind of kind of exploded in popularity. Um And actually 0:55:49.360 --> 0:55:52.680 it got it got so big, and there's so many 0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:54.920 posts on it that they have to they have they 0:55:54.920 --> 0:55:57.680 have now they have to like restrict text message conversation 0:55:57.760 --> 0:56:00.319 screenshots to only being allowed to be post to, like 0:56:00.400 --> 0:56:03.000 on one day a week, just because of the intense 0:56:03.080 --> 0:56:06.720 influx of of these posts, you know, some of them genuine, 0:56:06.800 --> 0:56:10.239 others maybe not so much. Um And And even though 0:56:10.239 --> 0:56:12.919 the suburn it may not be the biggest in terms 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:17.560 of like subscribers, um, it's it has more like daily 0:56:17.680 --> 0:56:21.600 posts than something like the Wall Street Bets suburb it has, 0:56:21.640 --> 0:56:24.120 so even though it doesn't have as many subscribers, the 0:56:24.120 --> 0:56:27.640 amount of actual like posting on it is higher than 0:56:27.680 --> 0:56:29.600 a lot of other suburates as well. So it is 0:56:29.960 --> 0:56:35.160 it is growing in popularity, like in in in multiple ways. 0:56:34.800 --> 0:56:37.880 It feels a little bit right now, like the social 0:56:37.920 --> 0:56:40.319 media equivalent of at of a sort of damole. It's 0:56:40.360 --> 0:56:44.920 like Wall Street Bets made a not insignificant uh splash 0:56:45.000 --> 0:56:47.040 earlier this year. It was it was quite a thing 0:56:47.080 --> 0:56:51.040 for the national economy for a little while there. UM 0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:53.759 and Anti Work hasn't had that moment, but I kind 0:56:53.800 --> 0:56:56.160 of feel like it might be getting close to critical mass, 0:56:56.200 --> 0:56:59.479 Like something, something might come out of this UM which 0:56:59.600 --> 0:57:02.080 I think would be rad For for the record, I 0:57:02.080 --> 0:57:05.640 think would be rad absolutely, And you know, it may 0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:08.560 not be one big thing, but it could be a 0:57:08.640 --> 0:57:11.560 lot of smaller things, right. You know, sometimes it's harder 0:57:11.560 --> 0:57:15.640 to see bigger change when you're like having more anarchist 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:18.479 adjacent ideas and and and the and the anti works 0:57:18.520 --> 0:57:21.600 that when it does, does try to keep itself being 0:57:21.680 --> 0:57:25.080 a radical subred and does trying to fight off neoliberal 0:57:25.280 --> 0:57:28.280 sentiments and stuff. And there have been there have been 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:30.320 some complaints I've seen of people being like ah, the 0:57:30.360 --> 0:57:33.760 liberals have gotten in and and people are talking about like, well, 0:57:33.800 --> 0:57:35.560 I just really want a life that's like I'm not 0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:37.880 stressed all the time, and I have enough money for 0:57:37.880 --> 0:57:40.080 for bills and stuff. Like people have been talking about 0:57:40.080 --> 0:57:42.680 like oh, this job, Like I I left my old 0:57:42.720 --> 0:57:44.760 job and I got into a better situation that's good. 0:57:44.800 --> 0:57:47.800 And there's complaints about that. And I think it is 0:57:47.840 --> 0:57:51.760 important to like push against de radicalizing the subredit. But 0:57:51.760 --> 0:57:54.240 I don't think it's bad that you're getting a lot 0:57:54.240 --> 0:57:57.000 of liberals in there who are not turned off by 0:57:57.000 --> 0:58:00.960 the name anti work UM. And I think that's I 0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:04.080 think it's positive that that there, even if they're you know, 0:58:04.840 --> 0:58:07.480 they're not coming at it from kind of a revolutionary perspective. 0:58:07.520 --> 0:58:10.960 But hey, it's okay to quit my job if if 0:58:11.000 --> 0:58:12.960 the conditions your shipped and try to find a place 0:58:12.960 --> 0:58:15.280 where I'm treated better. If that's their in road to 0:58:15.360 --> 0:58:20.640 this kind of thought, I still think that's pretty pretty awesome. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, 0:58:20.720 --> 0:58:24.440 because I mean, it's not realistic for every single person. 0:58:24.680 --> 0:58:27.600 Well and actually it is realistic for every single person 0:58:27.600 --> 0:58:30.040 to quit their job, but it's it's not realistic for 0:58:30.120 --> 0:58:33.400 only a few people to write and sometimes if if not, 0:58:33.440 --> 0:58:35.440 if if everyone's not going to do it, like literally everyone, 0:58:35.680 --> 0:58:37.760 then he knows, some people can't can't afford to quit 0:58:37.800 --> 0:58:39.880 their job UM right now because they have like kids, 0:58:39.880 --> 0:58:43.120 defeat or whatever um for themselves or you know, there's 0:58:43.160 --> 0:58:45.440 a lot there's a lot of reasons, which I'll kind 0:58:45.440 --> 0:58:48.440 of talk a little bit more about later. So and 0:58:48.600 --> 0:58:50.800 so the term anti work does does not does not 0:58:50.960 --> 0:58:54.400 come from the sub credit um and anti work has 0:58:54.480 --> 0:58:56.919 been like a post left term for a while now 0:58:57.280 --> 0:59:01.440 and kind of kind of applies to a broad spectrum 0:59:01.600 --> 0:59:06.560 of like anarchist adjacent kind of thought around. Hey, if 0:59:06.600 --> 0:59:09.920 we're gonna if we're gonna question like capitalism, uh and 0:59:10.040 --> 0:59:12.640 the state, we should probably also question just the idea 0:59:12.680 --> 0:59:15.080 of work itself and how it functions, and how the 0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:18.240 state kind of works only possible with the state, And 0:59:19.320 --> 0:59:23.080 it's that specific line line of thinking. UM. A few 0:59:23.120 --> 0:59:26.320 examples of like of like you know, seminal anti work 0:59:26.440 --> 0:59:31.080 books um is. One of them is Bob Blacks The 0:59:31.120 --> 0:59:35.000 Abolition of Work. UM. Crime Think has a really good 0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:37.400 book just called work, which is another another one that 0:59:37.400 --> 0:59:39.960 gets referenced a lot, even even in the subredit and 0:59:40.200 --> 0:59:43.840 also Bullshit Jobs by David Graber, and uh, Bullshit Jobs 0:59:43.920 --> 0:59:47.280 was also kind of partially inspired by Bob Blacks The 0:59:47.280 --> 0:59:49.800 The Abolition of Work. Um. All of those are are 0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:53.640 great resources and uh specifically like Bullshit Jobs is great 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:56.480 and like a like a for a modern outlook on this, 0:59:56.600 --> 0:59:59.160 like Bob Black's book was written was written a while ago, 0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:03.080 and Buship Jobs is definitely very timely and even even 1:00:03.120 --> 1:00:06.480 even Crimes Things Work book also also addresses stuff or 1:00:06.560 --> 1:00:09.800 even though it wasn't not written within the past. I 1:00:09.960 --> 1:00:12.520 think it is maybe slightly older than than a decade, 1:00:12.680 --> 1:00:14.720 but I think that they are updating it with more 1:00:14.760 --> 1:00:17.439 information about like the gig economy and stuff like that. Yeah, 1:00:17.520 --> 1:00:22.440 and it's it's not as it's characterized and as as 1:00:22.480 --> 1:00:24.880 anti work is often characterised by critics. It's not saying 1:00:24.880 --> 1:00:27.520 like nobody should have to do anything in a way. 1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:31.120 It's not Actually we'll talk about Diogenes later, um, but 1:00:31.160 --> 1:00:34.400 it's not everyone should just like lay around and do nothing. 1:00:34.480 --> 1:00:37.320 It's people shouldn't have to do the thing that we 1:00:37.440 --> 1:00:41.400 call work, which is destroy your body or your mind 1:00:41.640 --> 1:00:45.600 or both, uh, most of your waking hours, most of 1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:48.160 your life in the hope that you'll get ten years 1:00:48.160 --> 1:00:51.400 as an old person to not do that, like and 1:00:51.400 --> 1:00:53.400 and and and a little bit that that that's bad. 1:00:53.480 --> 1:00:55.240 That's a bad way to be a person, like a 1:00:55.240 --> 1:00:56.760 bad way to have to be And it's not bad 1:00:56.800 --> 1:00:59.000 to do that, it's it's bad that you have to 1:00:59.040 --> 1:01:01.520 do that. Yeah, Yeah, And I mean and there is 1:01:01.560 --> 1:01:03.000 a there is a little bit of it that is 1:01:03.000 --> 1:01:06.880 about finding time to chill out, which which it was 1:01:06.920 --> 1:01:08.480 just gonna apply a lot of you know, a lot 1:01:08.480 --> 1:01:09.880 of the ways if you have to keep a job, 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:12.080 you know, the different ways you can you can go 1:01:12.120 --> 1:01:14.160 about that job that does that makes it so it 1:01:14.200 --> 1:01:16.200 doesn't like kill you. One of my favorite ways to 1:01:16.200 --> 1:01:18.880 think about anti work is just like anti capitalism put 1:01:18.920 --> 1:01:21.160 into actual practice. So it's sort of you know, just 1:01:21.280 --> 1:01:24.320 debating online about anti capitalism as some you know, future 1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:26.520 things like no, like what can you do to actually 1:01:27.080 --> 1:01:30.280 you know, make capitalism less important part of how you 1:01:30.320 --> 1:01:32.880 live your life every day, which means you know, not 1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:35.280 obsessing over careers and all these kind of other things. 1:01:35.360 --> 1:01:37.960 So I think I think, first of all, it might 1:01:37.960 --> 1:01:39.800 be useful to kind of think about, like what do 1:01:39.840 --> 1:01:41.760 we actually mean by work? Because works kind of a 1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:44.720 works like a it's it has a lot of definitions, 1:01:44.760 --> 1:01:47.480 depend depending on what's like you depend depending on like 1:01:47.520 --> 1:01:50.120 what you mean by it? Right? Is it just like 1:01:50.200 --> 1:01:52.800 wage labor? Is it just forced labor? Um? You know, 1:01:53.120 --> 1:01:55.640 is cooking for yourself or your family considered work? But 1:01:56.280 --> 1:01:59.320 not always? But you know, like at times when I 1:01:59.280 --> 1:02:01.439 when when I where I'm like relaxed, I quite enjoy 1:02:01.520 --> 1:02:04.360 cooking for friends and family. But but certainly, but certainly 1:02:04.400 --> 1:02:06.880 it can feel like work sometimes, especially if you especially 1:02:06.880 --> 1:02:08.920 if you just got home from like a work shift, 1:02:09.200 --> 1:02:13.280 so in a way like work creates more work. Um, 1:02:13.320 --> 1:02:15.479 And it's it's not it's it's it kind of it doesn't. 1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:18.480 It isn't just it isn't just about like wage labor 1:02:18.560 --> 1:02:20.200 or something. It can kind of apply to a lot 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:22.760 of ways about how you live your life. You know, 1:02:23.600 --> 1:02:27.360 there's a lot of looking laying down wood chips or sad. 1:02:27.640 --> 1:02:29.800 If that's like your job, every day can be like 1:02:29.840 --> 1:02:33.200 a miserable, backbreaking process. If you actually have a huge 1:02:33.280 --> 1:02:35.000 yard or like own a little bit of land and 1:02:35.000 --> 1:02:37.760 you're making your own garden, that can be an intensely 1:02:37.960 --> 1:02:39.720 like the best part of your week. It can be 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:44.200 a great Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not. The problem is 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:48.160 not the individual tasks necessarily, it's what work is as 1:02:48.200 --> 1:02:53.160 a as a a platonic kind of concept in our society. Yeah. 1:02:53.160 --> 1:02:55.240 Not And and again one of the things, and I 1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:56.920 think this is one of the things speaking of you 1:02:57.000 --> 1:03:01.040 talked about David Graber earlier, who's an anarchist anthropologist and 1:03:01.080 --> 1:03:03.440 widely seen to be like one of the most brilliant 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:07.520 anthropologists of his generation. He did he recently deceased, but 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:10.360 a book that he wrote before he died with another 1:03:10.960 --> 1:03:13.840 and another fellow came out recently called The Dawn of 1:03:13.880 --> 1:03:17.240 Everything that talks a lot about how, yeah, these ideas, 1:03:17.800 --> 1:03:22.080 that kind of capitalism has a vested interest in you 1:03:22.200 --> 1:03:25.640 believing that the world was always hard in the way 1:03:25.680 --> 1:03:28.560 that it's hard, by which I mean like, in order 1:03:28.600 --> 1:03:32.240 to get basic necessities, you have to make somebody else 1:03:32.360 --> 1:03:35.400 rich um or find some grift of your own. And 1:03:35.520 --> 1:03:38.600 as opposed to like, yeah, life is always hard, but 1:03:38.720 --> 1:03:41.919 life wasn't didn't always involve labor the way we think 1:03:41.920 --> 1:03:45.360 about it. Labor has not been a constant in human civilization. 1:03:45.400 --> 1:03:48.240 In fact, most of human civilization people have not done 1:03:48.240 --> 1:03:51.160 a thing that we would recognize as labor. And I 1:03:51.200 --> 1:03:53.440 think also even if you go towards things that like 1:03:53.840 --> 1:03:55.720 look more like labor to us, right, like I don't know, 1:03:55.720 --> 1:03:58.440 like look look like if you look at like feudal levies, right, 1:03:58.520 --> 1:03:59.920 you're a peasant, you have to get some amount of 1:04:00.680 --> 1:04:04.880 graintier lord. But like, okay, we work way longer than 1:04:04.920 --> 1:04:07.520 medieval peasist did. And not only do we work longer, 1:04:07.680 --> 1:04:09.960 is something Greater and David talk about in that book 1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:11.720 is like yeah, like, not only do we work much longer, 1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:15.440 Like the amount that we work would have been considered absolutely, 1:04:15.480 --> 1:04:18.000 Like even even a feudal lord would look at that 1:04:18.080 --> 1:04:21.120 much work and go no, like this is this is 1:04:21.200 --> 1:04:23.560 this is like and you know, and I think there's 1:04:23.560 --> 1:04:27.120 there's another great hasn't. As another point, um, he wrote 1:04:27.120 --> 1:04:30.640 a piece called Turning Modes of Production inside Out where 1:04:30.680 --> 1:04:32.680 he has this argument that like, okay, so if if 1:04:32.720 --> 1:04:36.280 you take you know, if you take like Plato, right, 1:04:36.280 --> 1:04:37.800 you're like, you take any of the Greek philosophers, even 1:04:37.840 --> 1:04:43.240 the conservative ones, and you show them this the thing, 1:04:43.280 --> 1:04:45.440 the thing that we do every day. Right, you're you know, 1:04:45.480 --> 1:04:48.400 you have you're you're completely under the command of another 1:04:48.440 --> 1:04:52.200 person for like at least a third, probably more of 1:04:52.240 --> 1:04:55.640 your day. Yeah, I monitor you and Garrison's bathroom breaks. 1:04:56.440 --> 1:04:59.240 I look at your texts with family and friends. Um, 1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:03.240 it's it's really the situation. Yeah, it's an incredibly strict 1:05:03.240 --> 1:05:06.880 surveillance state. From Robert Evans. Yeah, yeah, this is like like, 1:05:06.960 --> 1:05:09.680 you know, if you show a Greek person that this 1:05:09.760 --> 1:05:11.880 is like this is the apocalypse to them, this is 1:05:11.920 --> 1:05:14.000 this is the worst thing that could possibly happen. It's 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:18.200 every single person in society has like essentially been reduced 1:05:18.200 --> 1:05:23.840 to a slave, and you know that's bad and it 1:05:23.920 --> 1:05:26.439 doesn't have to be like it's not that they've been 1:05:26.760 --> 1:05:28.800 because I want to push back on that terminology because 1:05:28.840 --> 1:05:31.000 it can go to some uncomfortable places. It's not that 1:05:31.040 --> 1:05:34.680 they are treated as a slave. It's that in the 1:05:34.760 --> 1:05:37.560 hours in which they are expected to labor, there's a 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:42.440 societal expectation that they act as the property of whoever 1:05:42.480 --> 1:05:45.120 owns the business or manages them. Right. The idea of 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:48.200 like if it if it like that attitude from like 1:05:48.200 --> 1:05:50.280 like working in a kitchen or or working at a 1:05:50.320 --> 1:05:52.680 fast food restaurant, like if you lean, if you're if 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:55.520 you can lean, you can clean. Like that attitude is 1:05:55.520 --> 1:05:58.800 saying you do not have any autonomy when you are 1:05:58.840 --> 1:06:01.120 at work. You are the pretty of the of the 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:04.480 employer while you are at work. Um, I think, yeah, 1:06:04.520 --> 1:06:06.040 and I think and I think you know, but I 1:06:06.040 --> 1:06:07.720 think that's a specific thing with Greece is that, like, 1:06:07.920 --> 1:06:09.560 you know, you the only way you could do that 1:06:09.600 --> 1:06:12.160 to someone in Greece is if you owned them. Yeah, 1:06:12.360 --> 1:06:14.280 Like you know, I'm like the grease has wage labor, right, 1:06:14.320 --> 1:06:16.840 but the only people who like it has wage labor, 1:06:16.840 --> 1:06:19.280 but it has wage labor for slaves. And that's like 1:06:19.600 --> 1:06:22.480 it right, like this, you know, and this is this 1:06:22.520 --> 1:06:24.600 isn't like obviously not to say that, like you know, 1:06:24.800 --> 1:06:27.360 we're like having a job is the same thing as slavery, 1:06:27.480 --> 1:06:30.560 But it's just to say that, like the kinds of 1:06:30.600 --> 1:06:33.880 things that we think of as normal, like are things 1:06:33.920 --> 1:06:36.600 that like the people who you know that the people 1:06:36.640 --> 1:06:38.400 who run the system and the people who you know 1:06:39.280 --> 1:06:41.560 get cited all the time to justify stuff would have 1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:44.120 looked at as like the worst thing that could possibly 1:06:44.120 --> 1:06:48.680 have happened to a society. Yeah, sure, Like daily life 1:06:48.840 --> 1:06:52.880 for a very substantial chunk of of the American workforce 1:06:53.120 --> 1:06:56.560 is that would be a nightmare to large percentages of 1:06:56.600 --> 1:07:01.600 the human population prior to the modern period. It like 1:07:02.320 --> 1:07:06.160 it's it's and and if you think about it that way, 1:07:06.640 --> 1:07:08.760 Like one of the things Greab does a good job 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:12.520 of going into UM is like the way in which 1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:15.160 uh and this is also something that comes up in 1:07:15.160 --> 1:07:17.240 in in Tribe by Younger, the way in which, like, 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:21.800 during the early period of colonization of North America, UM, 1:07:21.840 --> 1:07:25.919 it was very common for you know, Europeans to leave 1:07:26.400 --> 1:07:30.680 the cities and in towns being established behind um and 1:07:30.680 --> 1:07:34.200 and join up with indigen the tribes. The reverse never happened, 1:07:34.400 --> 1:07:37.960 like like, not willingly, not without kidnapping being a part 1:07:38.000 --> 1:07:40.800 of it. Um And it's because like their attitude was, 1:07:40.840 --> 1:07:43.320 they were looking at the lives these people were living 1:07:43.360 --> 1:07:46.080 in these cities and like, well, why would you agree 1:07:46.080 --> 1:07:50.640 to do that? And um, this is turning anyway, Garrison. 1:07:50.720 --> 1:07:52.800 You should you should take us back on the rails. 1:07:52.800 --> 1:07:57.880 This is getting more. But first, you know what has 1:07:57.920 --> 1:08:02.200 nothing to do with the fact that human beings are 1:08:02.320 --> 1:08:05.840 forced to labor for basic necessities in order to keep 1:08:05.880 --> 1:08:08.880 up a system that steals the freedom of the many 1:08:09.040 --> 1:08:12.280 in order to provide impossible liberty to the few. You 1:08:12.280 --> 1:08:17.880 know what isn't related to that, the advertise industrial complex 1:08:18.160 --> 1:08:21.120 not has nothing to do with it, totally unrelated. Why 1:08:21.120 --> 1:08:23.880 would you say that, Garrison? By the way, did you 1:08:23.880 --> 1:08:26.360 know that McDonald's EEG muffin is turning fifty years old 1:08:26.360 --> 1:08:30.960 and it's giving the breakfast they're they're they're they're selling 1:08:31.000 --> 1:08:33.040 it for its original price of sixty three cents during 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:36.240 breakfast hour six a m. To ten thirty am, exclusively 1:08:36.240 --> 1:08:39.920 on the McDonald's app. I can't. I can't do you guys? 1:08:40.000 --> 1:08:42.000 Do you guys want to mcmuffins for sixty three cents? 1:08:42.000 --> 1:08:44.519 That's the original price. I wonder what else the McDonald's 1:08:44.520 --> 1:08:47.559 app is looking at on my phone. Anyway, here's some mats. 1:08:49.880 --> 1:08:53.960 Oh we're back and we're talking about anti work. We're 1:08:53.960 --> 1:08:56.679 talking about how works kind of bullshit for our jobs. 1:08:57.040 --> 1:09:03.800 Um yeah, yeah, sure are we sure are? So you know, 1:09:03.840 --> 1:09:06.439 like there is there there's a lot of people who 1:09:06.520 --> 1:09:09.680 like enjoy stuff like gardening, fishing, carpentry, cooking, and even 1:09:09.720 --> 1:09:12.840 like you know, just fighting this fighting computer programming just 1:09:12.920 --> 1:09:14.880 for their own sake. Like a lot of the stuff 1:09:14.880 --> 1:09:18.519 that we like, quote unquote needs to need for uh 1:09:18.880 --> 1:09:20.920 society to function, A lot lot of those things people 1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:23.879 like doing as hobbies in their spirits. For for example, 1:09:23.960 --> 1:09:26.720 if you're a police officer, gunning down a man in 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:28.960 cold blood might be kind of like your day job 1:09:29.000 --> 1:09:30.880 and like frustrating, and there's a lot of ship you 1:09:30.960 --> 1:09:32.960 have to deal with. If you're a mash shooter, though, 1:09:33.160 --> 1:09:36.120 you just love it. You know, you're just doing It's 1:09:38.520 --> 1:09:41.080 that is that is exactly what the cow writtenhouse thing 1:09:41.160 --> 1:09:43.879 is though like like like like like actually like literally 1:09:43.960 --> 1:09:47.160 that that that is what it is. This is we 1:09:47.240 --> 1:09:48.679 I mean, we're not going to get the verdict today. 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:51.000 It doesn't look like not today, which is a bad sign. 1:09:51.240 --> 1:09:54.600 But by the time this airs, it may already be done. Um. 1:09:54.640 --> 1:09:56.439 But anyway, like a lot a lot of people like 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:59.000 doing those things without getting paid. And sometimes you know, 1:09:59.040 --> 1:10:02.000 often like cast sing themselves money, right, A lot of 1:10:02.000 --> 1:10:04.960 these hobbies are you know, are costly in their own 1:10:05.000 --> 1:10:07.759 in their own right, um. And I think it's interesting 1:10:07.800 --> 1:10:10.080 to you know, think, think of a society where you're 1:10:10.280 --> 1:10:12.760 where you're free to do those things when you feel 1:10:12.840 --> 1:10:14.760 like it, and you don't need to drag yourself out 1:10:14.760 --> 1:10:16.680 of bed at you know, early in the morning to work, 1:10:16.760 --> 1:10:18.519 to work a ten hour shift as a cash register. 1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:20.880 And it's not just even when you feel like it, 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:22.880 because there will be things that you have to do, 1:10:22.960 --> 1:10:25.280 even if I will discuss this letter to get yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:10:25.280 --> 1:10:28.559 in any like yeah, but it's not it's it's not 1:10:28.720 --> 1:10:31.679 work if you're if you're going out and harvesting food 1:10:31.880 --> 1:10:35.280 that feeds you in your community, that's not like work 1:10:35.320 --> 1:10:37.519 in the sense that we talk about modern work. The 1:10:37.600 --> 1:10:40.040 amount of extra energy we have by not having ten 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:43.800 hour horrible shifts that drain ourselves mentally and physically and 1:10:44.120 --> 1:10:46.200 more in with you know, the amount of most of 1:10:46.240 --> 1:10:49.360 the work that we people do, as shown in David 1:10:49.360 --> 1:10:52.640 Graper's bull bullshit Jobs, is like not necessary, like a 1:10:52.680 --> 1:10:54.400 lot of like a lot of the work that we 1:10:54.520 --> 1:10:58.879 do as a whole is not There's there's some squibbling 1:10:58.920 --> 1:11:01.120 about because the book was based off of a study, 1:11:01.439 --> 1:11:03.320 like a survey that kind of showed a lot of 1:11:03.680 --> 1:11:06.200 very significant chunk of the workforce thinks their job is 1:11:06.240 --> 1:11:09.080 like pointless and doesn't do anything. And there's been some 1:11:09.120 --> 1:11:11.559 criticisms of that, but it is undoubted that a very 1:11:11.600 --> 1:11:14.800 significant amount of total labor time spent is stuff that 1:11:14.920 --> 1:11:20.519 isn't necessary for really like reason of like making people's 1:11:20.560 --> 1:11:23.479 lives better. And another part of like anti work theories 1:11:23.560 --> 1:11:25.880 is looking is looking at our society as it's built, 1:11:25.880 --> 1:11:27.320 you know, because it is it is hid to anarchism, 1:11:27.320 --> 1:11:30.160 and be like how much of this is actually necessary? 1:11:30.280 --> 1:11:33.200 Like how do we do we really need a mac rib? 1:11:33.520 --> 1:11:38.000 Like do we do we do? What do you what 1:11:38.040 --> 1:11:42.879 do you Garrison? We do not? Well, hr need a macrib? 1:11:43.000 --> 1:11:50.320 We do not. I did the company training and they 1:11:50.720 --> 1:11:53.559 the company training says you can't attack someone for their religion, 1:11:53.640 --> 1:11:57.280 and Garrison just attacked the McRib So that actually is 1:11:57.479 --> 1:11:59.080 you know, it is a religion for a lot of people. 1:11:59.360 --> 1:12:02.040 Did you see that there there they they they did 1:12:02.080 --> 1:12:04.840 sell a MicroB n ft a few weeks ago. Um 1:12:04.920 --> 1:12:12.440 and tell me that ship that is so upsetting thank god. Yeah, yeah, 1:12:12.800 --> 1:12:18.680 just saying society with no money would not so gosh. 1:12:19.200 --> 1:12:21.280 But you know, think thinking of like anti work as 1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:23.559 as the theory. You know, it's about cutting down those 1:12:23.560 --> 1:12:27.240 those unnecessary things that fill people's time. Um. And you 1:12:27.280 --> 1:12:32.040 know and for a more you know, forward forward looking sense. 1:12:32.080 --> 1:12:34.640 It's it's a general kind of like like abolition of 1:12:34.680 --> 1:12:38.280 the producer and consumer based society um. So you know, 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:41.320 life is not dedicated to the production and consumption of 1:12:41.439 --> 1:12:44.960 goods and commodities. So you know this this applies not 1:12:44.960 --> 1:12:46.920 not just a capitalism, but also to you know, like 1:12:46.960 --> 1:12:50.120 state socialism um, where you know, work is still you 1:12:50.120 --> 1:12:53.880 know a big part of state socialism UM. And I 1:12:53.920 --> 1:12:56.920 think you know it's humans. It's it's it posits the 1:12:56.960 --> 1:12:59.360 future that humans can be way way way more free 1:12:59.720 --> 1:13:03.639 when you know, can reclaim their time from jobs and employment, um, 1:13:03.640 --> 1:13:06.240 instead of you know, spending a lot of their time 1:13:06.320 --> 1:13:07.960 doing that than spending spending a lot of like not 1:13:07.960 --> 1:13:09.640 not just time, but also just like their energy. Right 1:13:09.640 --> 1:13:11.880 because even if you work, you know, eight hours a day, 1:13:11.880 --> 1:13:14.320 you still have a majority of the day to yourself. 1:13:14.560 --> 1:13:16.800 But you're exhausted. You can't do man, you can't do 1:13:16.960 --> 1:13:20.599 much right. It's it drains you of everything. So, you know, 1:13:20.680 --> 1:13:23.680 the main point one of the main points of like 1:13:23.680 --> 1:13:25.519 of the abolition of work, I say by Bob Black 1:13:25.640 --> 1:13:29.160 is but like there's no one should work because because 1:13:29.240 --> 1:13:32.360 work is as defined as like as like as like 1:13:32.400 --> 1:13:36.840 a forced labor practice. Um is. You can kind of 1:13:36.880 --> 1:13:39.040 track this to being the source of most of the 1:13:39.120 --> 1:13:43.840 mystery in the world from you know, in in individual people, um, 1:13:43.960 --> 1:13:45.439 who are forced to do this Like this is where 1:13:45.439 --> 1:13:48.680 a lot of a lot of their pain comes from. 1:13:48.800 --> 1:13:52.640 Um is this idea is this is this forced labor concept? 1:13:53.080 --> 1:13:55.040 Um I think I think a good a good way 1:13:55.240 --> 1:13:57.439 you know, there is you know, the point that Robert 1:13:57.439 --> 1:13:59.920 brought up earlier is like, you know, what about the 1:14:00.040 --> 1:14:02.240 tasks that aren't fun? You know, what about what about 1:14:02.240 --> 1:14:06.439 the stuff that isn't isn't maybe as as enjoyable. Um, 1:14:06.479 --> 1:14:08.400 you know, there's, there's there's there's a list of list 1:14:08.400 --> 1:14:11.240 of things that the standard who's going to clean up 1:14:11.240 --> 1:14:15.200 the poop? That's that's the thing. So you know, I 1:14:15.200 --> 1:14:16.840 I kind of I I kind of I kind of 1:14:16.840 --> 1:14:19.960 look at this as like the I kind of kind 1:14:19.960 --> 1:14:21.479 of look at this as like, whenever I have to 1:14:21.520 --> 1:14:24.360 like turn the compost, which is not my favorite thing 1:14:24.400 --> 1:14:27.320 to do. I I don't look forward to having to 1:14:27.439 --> 1:14:32.120 turn over our massive, shitty, rotting compost pile. Not not 1:14:32.160 --> 1:14:40.519 my favorite thing. Um. But no, but now like if 1:14:40.520 --> 1:14:42.920 there's if if there's like friends around and we're playing 1:14:42.960 --> 1:14:45.800 music and we're all we have like some like have 1:14:45.920 --> 1:14:48.000 I have have like an iced tea or a dr pepper, 1:14:48.040 --> 1:14:51.000 and we're like talking as we're turning the compost, it's 1:14:51.000 --> 1:14:54.320 a lot more doable, you know. It's there's there's it's 1:14:54.320 --> 1:14:56.800 it's it's one task that's going to help all of 1:14:56.880 --> 1:15:00.880 us in the future. Um and I'm not getting watched 1:15:00.880 --> 1:15:03.000 over by a boss to fill a certain quote so 1:15:03.040 --> 1:15:04.880 I can pay my rent. Right. It's it's this. It's this, 1:15:05.200 --> 1:15:09.080 it's this thing that helps everybody and I and I 1:15:09.160 --> 1:15:12.640 do it because I want I want the goal of 1:15:12.640 --> 1:15:16.439 it to succeed. So there's there's there's gonna there's always 1:15:16.479 --> 1:15:18.560 gonna be tasks that are less pleasant than others. You know, 1:15:18.680 --> 1:15:21.320 what we can do is, you know, imagine a world 1:15:21.320 --> 1:15:23.080 where the amount of work actually needed to be done 1:15:23.160 --> 1:15:26.040 is greatly reduced so that the tasks that are necessary 1:15:26.200 --> 1:15:29.360 and some of them unpleasant, can be spread out, um 1:15:29.479 --> 1:15:32.519 and among more people, because less people will be wasting 1:15:32.560 --> 1:15:34.559 upwards of eight hours a day, five days a week 1:15:34.720 --> 1:15:39.320 doing mostly pointless time filling work. Because yeah, there's there's 1:15:39.360 --> 1:15:42.240 there's gonna be things that sucked, and we'll be able 1:15:42.280 --> 1:15:45.000 to do those a lot better if there's more people 1:15:45.400 --> 1:15:48.599 and we don't have to waste our times doing stuff 1:15:48.600 --> 1:15:51.920 that is is honestly a lot more bullshit than actually 1:15:51.960 --> 1:15:59.800 scooping bullshit. Wow, what a good joke. Speaking, it's it's 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:04.439 time to scoop up some more ads. Wait, really, haven't 1:16:04.439 --> 1:16:08.160 we done too? No, we only only did one. All right, 1:16:08.320 --> 1:16:12.120 we went a while without doing one. Guys, listen to 1:16:12.400 --> 1:16:17.240 the products because everyone loves a service. It's not like 1:16:17.320 --> 1:16:20.080 the thing we're talking about is bad. It's different than that. 1:16:20.240 --> 1:16:23.559 So it's fine. Yep, we're back, and we're still still 1:16:23.600 --> 1:16:26.519 talking about anti work, Um, I do. This is something 1:16:26.560 --> 1:16:29.720 that the Crime Think workbook points out, and you know, 1:16:29.720 --> 1:16:32.120 it's a pretty it's pretty obvious thing I've I've certainly 1:16:32.160 --> 1:16:34.160 thought of this before, is that you know, we've been 1:16:34.240 --> 1:16:38.400 told that the like technological progress will soon liberate humanity 1:16:38.439 --> 1:16:40.160 from the need to do work or from you know, 1:16:40.240 --> 1:16:42.920 having to do work as much um. And today we 1:16:43.000 --> 1:16:46.040 have the capabilities that you know, our ancestors couldn't have 1:16:46.120 --> 1:16:47.840 even imagined for free, the amount of work that we 1:16:47.880 --> 1:16:50.960 could get done. Um. But these predictions still like aren't true. 1:16:50.960 --> 1:16:53.280 We're still working more than ever. Even though we have 1:16:53.400 --> 1:16:57.720 developed so much um technologically, we're still working more than ever. 1:16:57.800 --> 1:16:59.519 And if I think it's silly to think that well, 1:16:59.600 --> 1:17:02.840 well will reach like a magic threshold where somehow now 1:17:02.920 --> 1:17:05.439 we have less work to do because we'll have like 1:17:05.479 --> 1:17:08.640 I don't like robots being a server Adam Adam McDonald's 1:17:08.680 --> 1:17:12.280 or whatever. Right where there's still there, there's still is 1:17:12.320 --> 1:17:14.559 forcing people into this thing because this is the only 1:17:14.600 --> 1:17:16.880 way that we can live. Right. This is we've we've 1:17:16.880 --> 1:17:20.080 built our whole society around getting work for money. So 1:17:20.520 --> 1:17:24.639 this is the only the only thing that we can do. Yeah, 1:17:25.000 --> 1:17:27.559 David creeper. One of the things he's argues in Bullshit 1:17:27.680 --> 1:17:31.120 Jobs is that basically, you know, okay, so so if 1:17:31.160 --> 1:17:34.320 if you have like you have the Soviet economy, right, okay, 1:17:34.320 --> 1:17:36.479 so the Soviet economy has has a policy of of 1:17:36.520 --> 1:17:39.439 full employment. And for a little bit they were like, okay, 1:17:39.439 --> 1:17:41.160 what if we make everyone work less? And then they 1:17:41.160 --> 1:17:45.280 stopped and then like everything went to ship. So you know, okay, 1:17:45.280 --> 1:17:47.080 but if if if you can't make people work less 1:17:47.080 --> 1:17:48.640 hours and everyone has to work, what do you do? 1:17:48.720 --> 1:17:49.880 It was like, okay, well you pay a bunch of 1:17:49.880 --> 1:17:54.800 people to like stand at a doorway. Right now, we 1:17:54.920 --> 1:17:57.760 also do this And then one of the gres like 1:17:58.280 --> 1:18:00.200 the funniest points that he brings up is that the 1:18:00.200 --> 1:18:02.519 the total number of bureaucrats in the x USS are 1:18:02.720 --> 1:18:08.080 like increased dramatically after the sr fell, which is incredible. 1:18:08.920 --> 1:18:10.880 And you know what what Ap points to is that, like, yeah, 1:18:10.960 --> 1:18:14.040 you know, Grebar called this total bureaucratization, which is that 1:18:14.080 --> 1:18:16.080 you know what, what we did, instead of like giving 1:18:16.120 --> 1:18:19.719 ourselves more free time, is created this just like endless, enormous, 1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:22.479 incredibly violent bureaucracy that all of us have to spend 1:18:22.520 --> 1:18:25.479 all of our time, like dealing with bullshit from our 1:18:25.520 --> 1:18:29.799 insurance companies and like fighting with like the Comcast service 1:18:29.880 --> 1:18:33.840 person and all of this just like you know, incredibly 1:18:33.880 --> 1:18:38.160 violent to humanizing stuff that you know, it's it's it's 1:18:38.160 --> 1:18:40.280 a make work program, right, it's but it's a make 1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:44.439 work program that just the work that it makes everyone 1:18:44.520 --> 1:18:47.760 is making everyone's lives miserable. And we could just not 1:18:48.320 --> 1:18:54.599 do this. Mh yeah, I mean we could. It's always 1:18:54.640 --> 1:18:58.160 more complicated than that, right, because the thing that is 1:18:58.320 --> 1:19:00.120 when we talk about anti work, I think that's the 1:19:00.120 --> 1:19:01.800 other side of this is like Okay, well, what if 1:19:01.800 --> 1:19:03.960 you get a kid, how are you going to feed 1:19:03.960 --> 1:19:05.840 that kid? Like what if? Like yeah, how are you 1:19:05.840 --> 1:19:07.360 going to keep him in a house? Like how this 1:19:07.479 --> 1:19:10.040 is not even just if you have a kid, but like, yeah, 1:19:10.160 --> 1:19:13.160 you people die in our society when they do not 1:19:13.320 --> 1:19:16.519 have access to adequate resources. And the only way to 1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:19.200 have access to adequate resources is to be born rich 1:19:19.320 --> 1:19:21.880 or to work. Those are your options. Yeah, that is 1:19:21.880 --> 1:19:25.080 why without without robust mutual aid and the commitment by 1:19:25.080 --> 1:19:26.479 a lot of people to try to make sure that 1:19:26.479 --> 1:19:30.160 a lifestyle is sustainable outside of you know, this system, 1:19:30.240 --> 1:19:33.479 Like it's not impossible, but it's somewhere along the line 1:19:33.479 --> 1:19:35.559 there has to be input. I mean, yeah, like we've 1:19:35.600 --> 1:19:39.320 been talking about Yeah, we've been talking about antiwork as 1:19:39.400 --> 1:19:42.240 like as kind of like a broad hopeful like future 1:19:42.280 --> 1:19:45.840 goal in some other you know, post scarcity. Well not 1:19:45.840 --> 1:19:48.920 not post scarcity, but like it's post like a post crumbling, 1:19:49.040 --> 1:19:51.760 post kind of collapse future. But I think you know, 1:19:52.120 --> 1:19:55.960 for us now, as you know, the antiworks is about 1:19:56.000 --> 1:19:58.880 people now, right, the antiworks it is not about a 1:19:59.000 --> 1:20:02.760 future world. I think the anti work now is like 1:20:02.800 --> 1:20:05.439 an alternative to the obsession with living your life with 1:20:05.479 --> 1:20:08.800 the goal of a career. Yes, it's about true, you know, 1:20:08.840 --> 1:20:12.080 it's it's like a project to radically reframe the how 1:20:12.120 --> 1:20:15.040 we think of work and leisure. Um, it's like like 1:20:15.040 --> 1:20:18.640 like like a cognitive antidote to like the like this 1:20:18.760 --> 1:20:21.559 culture of like hustle and hard work, which is like 1:20:21.560 --> 1:20:24.560 taken over our minds and and and our time. So 1:20:24.640 --> 1:20:27.599 it's like for for those who can't just resign from 1:20:27.640 --> 1:20:31.080 their job for whatever reason, whatever moment, the anti work 1:20:31.160 --> 1:20:33.400 is about like thinking of this movement as like the 1:20:33.400 --> 1:20:37.400 antithesis to the mainstream capitalist hustle culture. You know that 1:20:37.400 --> 1:20:40.639 that includes like slacking off more finding ways to waste time, 1:20:40.920 --> 1:20:44.080 possibly even finding ways to steal or scam your boss. 1:20:44.120 --> 1:20:48.080 I I've I've read certain certain alleged ways of doing 1:20:48.120 --> 1:20:53.559 this inside the Anti Work for Days where they got 1:20:53.600 --> 1:20:56.000 it from. But yeah no, but like you no, like 1:20:56.160 --> 1:20:58.000 there is you know, like ways to like scam scam 1:20:58.040 --> 1:21:00.120 whatever corporation you work for. Right that that there's has 1:21:00.120 --> 1:21:02.880 been examples shared in the anti right in the anti works. 1:21:03.400 --> 1:21:05.760 So you know, it's about actually like finding, you know, 1:21:05.840 --> 1:21:07.799 making sure that you hate your work because you should, 1:21:08.120 --> 1:21:10.040 and then figuring out how to live your life with 1:21:10.080 --> 1:21:12.120 that in mind. And I think, what, what are the 1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:13.960 really hard parts about this? Is for people who like 1:21:14.479 --> 1:21:17.000 kind of like their job, people people who are like 1:21:17.400 --> 1:21:19.599 you think who like either like their job or think 1:21:19.640 --> 1:21:21.519 it's like kind of important or like they're special to 1:21:21.560 --> 1:21:23.400 have it, right, it's like, oh, you're like, I'm lucky 1:21:23.439 --> 1:21:25.680 to have such a good job, because like, when you're 1:21:25.720 --> 1:21:28.400 stuck in that mindset, you can often put in like 1:21:28.479 --> 1:21:31.720 a lot of extra unpaid labor because you think it's 1:21:31.720 --> 1:21:33.920 important because you're like, oh, no, this is worth doing 1:21:33.920 --> 1:21:36.160 because it's gonna have some like benefits to the world. 1:21:36.400 --> 1:21:38.160 So you end up like putting in actually more work 1:21:38.200 --> 1:21:40.599 that you don't actually get paid for, and like it's 1:21:40.600 --> 1:21:42.920 about trying to like kill that instinct as well. So 1:21:43.040 --> 1:21:45.439 that's a whole, a whole way to think about like working, 1:21:45.439 --> 1:21:47.400 because like we're gonna be stuck, A lot of people 1:21:47.400 --> 1:21:50.040 are gonna be stuck doing it for for for a while. 1:21:50.400 --> 1:21:52.479 So how can you kind of reframe what we do 1:21:52.560 --> 1:21:55.160 on the job and how kind of jobs live in 1:21:55.200 --> 1:21:58.400 our minds when we are at home. And I think 1:21:58.439 --> 1:22:00.879 the best thing about what you've said, in my opinion, 1:22:01.000 --> 1:22:05.280 is the idea that like this is not the importance 1:22:05.439 --> 1:22:09.320 is not on whether or not this this causes everyone 1:22:09.360 --> 1:22:11.400 to stop having to work immediately, like whether or not 1:22:11.439 --> 1:22:15.479 it leads to you know, directly to like the measure 1:22:15.520 --> 1:22:17.840 of success of this movement isn't that nobody ever has 1:22:17.880 --> 1:22:20.479 to work again. That's a that's a long term goal. 1:22:20.840 --> 1:22:22.639 The measure of the success of this movement is that 1:22:22.680 --> 1:22:26.880 people accept in mass that no, the American dream as 1:22:26.920 --> 1:22:29.439 it's sold to people is not a good thing too. 1:22:29.479 --> 1:22:32.160 It's not a thing. To aspire to work is bullshit, 1:22:32.280 --> 1:22:34.519 and we should aspire to a society that doesn't do it. 1:22:34.520 --> 1:22:37.760 It's getting back honestly, Like it's getting back to some 1:22:37.840 --> 1:22:39.840 of the ship that people were talking about in like 1:22:39.960 --> 1:22:42.599 when The Jetsons was on TV, the idea that like, well, 1:22:42.600 --> 1:22:45.080 with labor saving devices, the like a hard work week 1:22:45.120 --> 1:22:46.920 will be four hours and like that's the way life 1:22:46.960 --> 1:22:50.880 will be for everybody, and like, um, and the it's 1:22:50.920 --> 1:22:53.840 the acceptance that like, no, a better future involves me 1:22:53.960 --> 1:22:57.040 not having it. Mouls no one having to spend forty 1:22:57.080 --> 1:23:00.479 hours a week of their limited human life working at 1:23:00.479 --> 1:23:03.919 a fucking sonic or like listening to some middle manager 1:23:04.040 --> 1:23:07.599 brate them for not answering phones fast enough. Um, that 1:23:07.640 --> 1:23:11.040 doesn't exist for any human being in a world that 1:23:11.160 --> 1:23:13.320 is achievable and better than the one that we live in. 1:23:13.360 --> 1:23:16.040 Like convincing people of that and getting that to be 1:23:16.080 --> 1:23:19.720 widely accepted is I think? What I think? What is 1:23:19.760 --> 1:23:22.000 what I would consider the terms of victory in in 1:23:22.040 --> 1:23:26.400 this particular struggle. Yeah, kind of moving on from this 1:23:26.479 --> 1:23:28.720 side of things into like the Great Resignation and the 1:23:28.760 --> 1:23:31.519 other kind of things that people are doing so um. 1:23:31.560 --> 1:23:35.040 In August alone, four point three million Americans voluntarily left 1:23:35.040 --> 1:23:39.160 their jobs um, and the rate of people quitting increased 1:23:39.320 --> 1:23:44.439 to a a decent A decent record high of like 1:23:44.520 --> 1:23:47.680 a two point nine percent according to the Bureau of 1:23:47.760 --> 1:23:50.680 Labor and Statistics. So and this this, this, this has 1:23:50.720 --> 1:23:52.360 been a growing trend. You can look at like I 1:23:52.360 --> 1:23:55.240 think June was like a like a little under four million. 1:23:55.760 --> 1:23:57.800 August was four point three. It's like it was you know, 1:23:57.880 --> 1:24:00.479 it's it's ramping. I don't know what if. I don't 1:24:00.479 --> 1:24:02.760 know if we have data for September or October. Yet 1:24:02.960 --> 1:24:06.439 this was the most recent one I could find. Um, So, yeah, 1:24:06.479 --> 1:24:09.240 like it's stuff. Stuff is, stuff is going up. People 1:24:09.240 --> 1:24:11.519 are because because people are like a big part of 1:24:11.560 --> 1:24:14.120 the antiborks. It's like, yeah, if your job sucks, you 1:24:14.160 --> 1:24:16.559 can quit it and probably find another one that pays 1:24:16.600 --> 1:24:20.599 better in decent time, especially especially especially right now, like 1:24:20.880 --> 1:24:23.200 right now, if your job is really terrible, you have 1:24:23.200 --> 1:24:25.720 a decent chance of finding a better one. Um. This 1:24:25.800 --> 1:24:28.200 wasn't the case like two years ago. Um it is 1:24:28.240 --> 1:24:30.280 the case that at this moment, so a lot of 1:24:30.280 --> 1:24:32.639 the antiporksbre and it's like, yeah, quit your job, like 1:24:32.800 --> 1:24:35.800 say fuck you to your boss and leave because if 1:24:35.800 --> 1:24:38.880 they're being shitty then they don't deserve to have you. Um. 1:24:39.680 --> 1:24:41.360 So resigning has it has been been a big part 1:24:41.400 --> 1:24:44.720 of this, and there has there has been attempts at 1:24:45.080 --> 1:24:47.880 other kind of organized stuff, and this kind of falls 1:24:47.920 --> 1:24:50.000 into In my opinion, this kind of falls into the 1:24:50.040 --> 1:24:53.920 same kind of traps as sole internet organizing kind of 1:24:53.960 --> 1:24:57.320 always does. So the big thing that they're organizing for 1:24:57.600 --> 1:25:00.680 is called Black Friday Blackout, which is about kind of 1:25:00.680 --> 1:25:03.679 trying to get everyone to as many people as possible 1:25:03.680 --> 1:25:06.479 to not work Black Friday, um and not buy anything 1:25:06.479 --> 1:25:09.320 on Black Friday. UM. So, like a post from the 1:25:09.360 --> 1:25:11.840 suburb of here is like spread the word call in sick. 1:25:11.840 --> 1:25:14.000 If you're forced to work black on Black Friday, spend 1:25:14.000 --> 1:25:16.280 time with your family instead, remain at home and participate 1:25:16.320 --> 1:25:19.680 in your favorite activity on Friday November. Talk to your 1:25:19.680 --> 1:25:21.960 family and friends about about your work life struggles. Pass 1:25:22.040 --> 1:25:26.880 up flyers, join our slash anti work UM. So this 1:25:26.960 --> 1:25:28.439 is you know, I think this kind of falls into 1:25:28.439 --> 1:25:31.479 this seem like you know, general strike organized online stuff 1:25:31.520 --> 1:25:33.439 that we talked about before, how kind of like a 1:25:33.520 --> 1:25:35.600 lack of like real like in person solidarity and like 1:25:35.680 --> 1:25:39.120 non internet you know, networking and organizing results and stuff 1:25:39.160 --> 1:25:41.040 like this just you know, like proposed like one day 1:25:41.080 --> 1:25:45.080 strikes or actions that are ultimately kind of non effectual, right, 1:25:45.160 --> 1:25:47.920 Like they can be like a good symbol sometimes, but 1:25:48.000 --> 1:25:49.800 like you know, they're not. It's it's it's not, it's 1:25:49.800 --> 1:25:52.760 not really gonna matter that much, even even if it works. Well, 1:25:52.960 --> 1:25:55.240 what I think it'd be cool if literally no store 1:25:55.320 --> 1:25:57.240 was open on Black Friday because everyone quit. Yeah, that 1:25:57.280 --> 1:25:59.599 would be rad. But that's that's not I don't that's 1:25:59.640 --> 1:26:02.800 not gonna really happen. Um. It would be fun if 1:26:02.800 --> 1:26:04.960 it did, but like, realistically, it's it's not, it's not 1:26:04.960 --> 1:26:07.040 gonna happen. And there is people on the subred who 1:26:07.080 --> 1:26:09.240 also point this out there there there there was there 1:26:09.320 --> 1:26:11.599 was a reply to this post that was like, oh, 1:26:11.640 --> 1:26:13.920 look another online call for a general strike with no 1:26:14.040 --> 1:26:16.920 union support whatsoever. Don't worry y'all. This one's this one 1:26:17.040 --> 1:26:19.519 is definitely gonna work. Um. So it's like, yeah, like 1:26:19.880 --> 1:26:22.160 there's a lot of people in the sub also recognize that, 1:26:22.200 --> 1:26:26.040 like without like actual like organizing support um and in 1:26:26.080 --> 1:26:28.559 person stuff and you know networks to support people on 1:26:28.600 --> 1:26:31.599 like you know, lengthy strikes. These types of things are 1:26:31.720 --> 1:26:35.320 kind of are mostly symbolic actions that will have, you know, 1:26:36.240 --> 1:26:41.200 in the end, little little impact. Um. They may make 1:26:41.240 --> 1:26:43.600 you feel powerful as you're doing them, which is you know, 1:26:43.640 --> 1:26:45.800 which is good. That is a lot of activism is 1:26:45.800 --> 1:26:50.240 actually just just about you feeling powerful in that moment um. 1:26:50.400 --> 1:26:52.680 But you know, as as an end goals, remember it's 1:26:52.720 --> 1:26:55.320 important to be remember to think like it's not it's 1:26:55.320 --> 1:26:58.160 that this isn't you know, this isn't gonna reach whatever 1:26:58.200 --> 1:27:01.559 anti work utopia, which I I know people people organizing 1:27:01.600 --> 1:27:04.320 it aren't thinking that, but you know, it's it's it's 1:27:04.320 --> 1:27:07.160 important to keep this within context of like the limits 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:10.240 of even of of online organizing. You know, so a 1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:12.479 lot a lot of people like recommend you know, focusing 1:27:12.520 --> 1:27:16.240 on organizing your own workplace and community, um, discussing you know, 1:27:16.560 --> 1:27:20.840 discussing having discussions with with unions kind of in in 1:27:20.840 --> 1:27:24.720 your area. Um and yeah, a part of part of, 1:27:24.720 --> 1:27:27.200 part of kind of the part of the reply to 1:27:27.200 --> 1:27:30.599 to this original like a Black Friday blackout post that 1:27:30.600 --> 1:27:35.120 that someone that someone wrote was was seriously though, I 1:27:35.160 --> 1:27:37.200 would love for an actual general strike to kick off, 1:27:37.240 --> 1:27:39.919 but these online calls for general strikes with no union involvement, 1:27:39.960 --> 1:27:42.800 no demands, no supports for strikers of any kind, no 1:27:43.040 --> 1:27:46.719 nothing whatsoever beyond social media hashtags don't do anything focus 1:27:46.720 --> 1:27:49.400 on organizing or workplace any community discussed with unions which 1:27:49.479 --> 1:27:53.040 might be sympathetic to what criteria, uh, what criteria they 1:27:53.080 --> 1:27:55.479 might need from such a drastic action. There's a lot 1:27:55.520 --> 1:27:57.599 of unions on strike right now, so if there ever 1:27:57.680 --> 1:27:59.240 was the time to kick one off, it's now. Most 1:27:59.320 --> 1:28:01.599 general strikes in the past and started off with specific 1:28:01.640 --> 1:28:04.080 strikes that started pulling in other union the Neians and 1:28:04.160 --> 1:28:07.840 solidarity than anything else. Focus on that and we might 1:28:07.880 --> 1:28:09.720 get somewhere. I think it is it's a decent is 1:28:09.720 --> 1:28:12.480 a decent advice for the people who are really dedicated 1:28:12.520 --> 1:28:15.120 onto this kind of like general strike thing is Yeah, 1:28:15.200 --> 1:28:17.840 that is that is that is um pretty pretty good 1:28:17.840 --> 1:28:21.679 advice in in my opinion, I want to see something 1:28:21.840 --> 1:28:24.400 kind of briefly just in general about general strikes because 1:28:25.320 --> 1:28:28.120 I think we've talked about it a lot on here, 1:28:28.240 --> 1:28:31.880 but they're really really hard. I mean there there, there's 1:28:32.000 --> 1:28:34.240 there's an example, like and like just to just to 1:28:34.240 --> 1:28:36.320 get a picture of like how how actually hard it 1:28:36.400 --> 1:28:38.320 is to pull off. There was there was one in 1:28:38.360 --> 1:28:41.760 Sudan in in summer nineteen and you know, I mean 1:28:41.760 --> 1:28:43.720 this is this is in the middle of the revolution, right, 1:28:44.280 --> 1:28:48.679 the like Sudan is incredibly highly organized, as incredibly built, 1:28:48.720 --> 1:28:51.200 and people have been like you know, I mean, people 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:54.519 like the like the chance in the street is like, 1:28:55.080 --> 1:28:58.040 you cannot kill us, were already dead, like you know 1:28:58.640 --> 1:29:01.240 they and you know, and and it's the whole revolution 1:29:01.360 --> 1:29:03.760 is being led by the Student Professional Association, which is 1:29:03.960 --> 1:29:07.320 an association of like seventeen trade unions. Right, so this 1:29:07.439 --> 1:29:11.280 this is a population that is enormously better organized than 1:29:11.640 --> 1:29:15.320 like anything really that exists in the US. And you know, 1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:16.960 in in the middle of the summer of the army 1:29:17.040 --> 1:29:19.920 opens fire and starts killing protesters, and so they call 1:29:20.040 --> 1:29:22.920 general strike, and you know, the turnout is massive, right, 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:24.960 they have millions, millions upon millions of people show up 1:29:24.960 --> 1:29:29.000 to the strike, and on day one it's successful. And 1:29:29.040 --> 1:29:31.160 then on day two of the strike, people start having 1:29:31.160 --> 1:29:32.759 to pull out, especially people in the in formal sector, 1:29:32.800 --> 1:29:34.479 because even with the level of organization they have, they 1:29:34.479 --> 1:29:37.800 can't support everyone. And by about day three, most of 1:29:37.800 --> 1:29:40.760 the strike is collapsed because even even with levels of 1:29:40.800 --> 1:29:44.120 organization they had, even with you know, the coordination, even 1:29:44.120 --> 1:29:45.640 with the fact that they're in the middle of the revolution, 1:29:46.320 --> 1:29:49.320 they just they couldn't support particularly people in the informal sector. 1:29:49.479 --> 1:29:54.960 So this stuff is really really really hard, and yeah, 1:29:55.000 --> 1:29:57.559 it is even it is definitely hard. Yeah, Like even 1:29:57.600 --> 1:30:01.800 even highly organized, highly motivated people who are you know, 1:30:02.080 --> 1:30:05.679 like literally willing to fight to the death will lose. 1:30:06.479 --> 1:30:08.320 And that's that's something that you have to sort of 1:30:08.479 --> 1:30:10.519 keep in minds, I think when you're talking about this, 1:30:10.600 --> 1:30:12.640 because a lot of people are more focused on the 1:30:12.720 --> 1:30:16.000 kind of their individual resignations, finding other ways of making money, 1:30:16.080 --> 1:30:18.040 and just slacking off at work in general, because those 1:30:18.040 --> 1:30:20.280 are a lot a lot easier than trying to organize 1:30:20.280 --> 1:30:22.800 a general a mass general strike right now. And I 1:30:22.800 --> 1:30:25.360 think one of the really optimistic things about this whole 1:30:25.400 --> 1:30:29.040 anti work thing, including including the subreun is that it 1:30:29.080 --> 1:30:32.479 has made some big executives kind of nervous. Um. There 1:30:32.600 --> 1:30:36.440 was a fantastic article by Yahoo Finance. Now by fantastic, 1:30:36.439 --> 1:30:39.600 I mean funny for me. You know, they did not 1:30:39.680 --> 1:30:43.000 think it was as funny um about They talked with 1:30:43.000 --> 1:30:48.439 like the Golden Sacks CEO of and uh and they 1:30:48.520 --> 1:30:52.920 pointed to the anti work separated of being what was 1:30:52.960 --> 1:30:56.639 the what was the phrase, um, A long run risk 1:30:57.080 --> 1:31:03.160 to to labor force participation good. This is see that 1:31:03.160 --> 1:31:05.479 that when I first read that in the article, I 1:31:05.600 --> 1:31:08.640 just like flashed to my head in my head to 1:31:08.680 --> 1:31:13.040 that scene from Starship Troopers where Neil Patrick Harris puts 1:31:13.040 --> 1:31:15.360 his hand on the brain bug, it goes, it's afraid, 1:31:15.920 --> 1:31:21.680 It's afraid. Yeah, yeah, he said, Uh, we see some 1:31:21.800 --> 1:31:24.280 risk that workers were elected will elect to maintain out 1:31:24.320 --> 1:31:26.920 of the workforce for longer, provided they can afford to 1:31:26.960 --> 1:31:31.800 do so. Of pretty pretty good stuff and and and 1:31:32.080 --> 1:31:34.120 everything that's worth mentioning that hasn't been talked about very 1:31:34.200 --> 1:31:36.920 much is that So this is actually kind of working 1:31:36.960 --> 1:31:41.800 in some sense, Like the last few months general, last 1:31:41.800 --> 1:31:44.599 few months particular have seen basically like the highest levels 1:31:44.680 --> 1:31:49.160 of wage increases that we've seen in decades. So you know, like, yeah, 1:31:49.320 --> 1:31:52.360 we haven't overthrown capitalism yet, but like if you can 1:31:52.439 --> 1:31:54.840 keep quitting your job, keep quitting your job at at 1:31:54.840 --> 1:31:59.200 your regular job, work less, keep doing it, it's working. Yeah, 1:31:59.240 --> 1:32:02.880 this is stuff wish we need to in the future. 1:32:03.080 --> 1:32:05.439 I would like us to be focusing more on stuff 1:32:05.479 --> 1:32:08.000 like that like this. That is legitimately, as you point out, Chris, 1:32:08.080 --> 1:32:10.439 there's a lot of reasons to be very optimistic about 1:32:10.479 --> 1:32:13.640 about some of the numbers that we're getting from what 1:32:13.840 --> 1:32:17.800 is happening to labor right now? UM, and it is 1:32:17.840 --> 1:32:20.719 important as we all like right now we're all miserable 1:32:20.720 --> 1:32:23.160 because we're sweating through the rittenhouse case, it is important 1:32:23.160 --> 1:32:25.519 to talk about stuff like that that like, yeah, some 1:32:25.560 --> 1:32:28.960 ship people is doing is hitting a home. Some motherfucker's 1:32:28.960 --> 1:32:32.960 have found the glowy vulnerable spot on the Boss Monster 1:32:33.120 --> 1:32:37.799 and it's it's yeah, it's just not working. Yeah. Like again, 1:32:38.240 --> 1:32:41.040 as we started the series with, like yeah, General Strike 1:32:41.160 --> 1:32:45.240 is is kind of the best available solution um or 1:32:45.240 --> 1:32:49.320 a path to a solution that I can find. Um 1:32:49.360 --> 1:32:52.040 But anyway, uh what what what what? What? What else? 1:32:52.840 --> 1:32:54.840 I think that that does it for us today? I 1:32:54.880 --> 1:33:04.080 know special special like sequel stuff happening. Uh so tune 1:33:04.080 --> 1:33:07.839 in tomorrow for our list work in China, and like 1:33:07.840 --> 1:33:10.519 like all of the best sequels, this one will be 1:33:10.560 --> 1:33:14.640 directed by James Cameron. UM. So we're all very excited 1:33:15.080 --> 1:33:17.360 to bring our pal James onto the pod, to bring 1:33:17.360 --> 1:33:20.919 our pal James and the reanimated corpse of Stan Winston. 1:33:21.240 --> 1:33:24.160 Um it's going to be amazing. So check it out 1:33:25.080 --> 1:33:35.840 by everybody. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the New York 1:33:35.880 --> 1:33:39.840 Times bestseller fair Play and find your Unicorn space activists 1:33:39.840 --> 1:33:43.000 on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 1:33:43.240 --> 1:33:46.240 And I'm Dr adding A Rucar, a Harvard physician and 1:33:46.280 --> 1:33:50.040 medical correspondent with an expertise and the science of stress, resilience, 1:33:50.120 --> 1:33:53.280 mental health and burnout. We're so excited to share our 1:33:53.320 --> 1:33:56.880 podcast Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and 1:33:56.960 --> 1:34:00.800 Hello Sunshine. We're uncovering why society makes it so hard 1:34:00.840 --> 1:34:03.560 for women to treat their time with the value it deserves. 1:34:03.800 --> 1:34:07.240 So take this time out with us. Listen to Time Out, 1:34:07.479 --> 1:34:10.360 a fair play podcast on the I Heart Radio app, 1:34:10.479 --> 1:34:17.000 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. After thirty years, 1:34:17.080 --> 1:34:19.439 it's time to return to the halls of West Beverly 1:34:19.520 --> 1:34:21.519 High and hang out at the peach pit. On the 1:34:21.600 --> 1:34:24.960 podcast nine O two one OMG joined Jenny Garth and 1:34:25.000 --> 1:34:27.920 Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly 1:34:28.000 --> 1:34:30.320 Hills nine O two one oh. From the very beginning, 1:34:30.600 --> 1:34:33.719 we get to tell the fans all of the behind 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:36.360 the scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what 1:34:36.439 --> 1:34:39.360 happened on camera obviously, but we can tell them all 1:34:39.439 --> 1:34:41.439 the good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the 1:34:41.520 --> 1:34:44.599 juicy details of every episode that you've been wondering about 1:34:44.640 --> 1:34:47.120 for decades. As nine O two one oh, super fan 1:34:47.240 --> 1:34:50.240 and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory 1:34:50.360 --> 1:34:53.880 two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and 1:34:53.960 --> 1:34:57.680 Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have 1:34:57.760 --> 1:35:01.920 an amazing memory. You remember everything about the entire ten 1:35:01.960 --> 1:35:05.520 years that we filmed that show, and you remember absolutely 1:35:05.560 --> 1:35:08.320 nothing of the ten years that we filmed that show. 1:35:09.040 --> 1:35:11.200 Listen to nine O two one OMG on the I 1:35:11.280 --> 1:35:14.600 Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:35:15.800 --> 1:35:19.639 The art world it is essentially a money laundering business. 1:35:20.080 --> 1:35:22.720 The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You 1:35:22.760 --> 1:35:26.080 know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. 1:35:26.320 --> 1:35:30.960 I'm at like Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed, 1:35:31.040 --> 1:35:33.960 and forgery in the art world. You knew that the 1:35:34.000 --> 1:35:40.760 painting was fake. Um Listen to Art Fraud starting February 1:35:40.840 --> 1:35:45.160 one on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or 1:35:45.200 --> 1:36:04.000 wherever you get your podcasts. Fuck work, work, Hey, hey, hey, hey, 1:36:04.840 --> 1:36:08.080 good introduction. I'm Robert Evans. This is it could happen here. 1:36:08.240 --> 1:36:11.880 That was Chris Garrison's also here, so is Sophie, who 1:36:12.040 --> 1:36:14.680 is changing her name to Sophie. What is your new name, 1:36:15.200 --> 1:36:18.519 Sophie dot Com Arena, Sophie dot Com Arena. She's doing 1:36:18.520 --> 1:36:20.040 this to deal with the trauma of the fact that 1:36:20.120 --> 1:36:22.320 Los Angeles just agreed to change the name of the 1:36:22.400 --> 1:36:27.160 Chase Bank Arena to Crypto dot Com st Center, Oh, 1:36:27.200 --> 1:36:30.800 Staples Center, Sorry, I'm getting my arena's named after venal 1:36:30.960 --> 1:36:39.240 brands mixed up. Speaking of the pointlessness of work, there 1:36:39.280 --> 1:36:43.360 are people laboring right now who worked at Staples so 1:36:43.400 --> 1:36:45.639 that Staples would have enough money to name a place 1:36:45.640 --> 1:36:48.240 where people go do sports after a place where people 1:36:48.280 --> 1:36:54.120 get fucking pencils um And now Staples has declined enough 1:36:54.320 --> 1:36:58.759 that it's just crypto dot com. Fucking Crypto dot com 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:04.280 book upon look up on the worst cryptocurrency e formerly 1:37:04.400 --> 1:37:09.840 Mighty Staples in despair, fucking the Osmond Dius of the 1:37:09.880 --> 1:37:12.960 office supply world. I don't know whatever, what are we 1:37:13.000 --> 1:37:18.920 talking about. We're going to no comes in the middle, 1:37:19.040 --> 1:37:21.360 but right now we're gonna go to a place where 1:37:21.360 --> 1:37:24.680 they banned crypto mining for the most part, so and 1:37:24.720 --> 1:37:28.160 that that places China, and I wanted to talk about 1:37:28.800 --> 1:37:31.000 specifically a lot of us been going on the Chinese Internet, 1:37:31.080 --> 1:37:35.000 what's been going on in Chinese labor because so Garrison 1:37:35.120 --> 1:37:36.880 Garrison told me we're doing an at work episode, and 1:37:36.880 --> 1:37:40.000 I went, oh, yeah, there's a there's you know, there's 1:37:40.000 --> 1:37:41.759 a version of this in China. And then I realized 1:37:41.800 --> 1:37:45.080 that like a almost no one has heard of lying 1:37:45.080 --> 1:37:48.719 flat and be it rules and see that nobody really 1:37:48.960 --> 1:37:50.640 know in the US knows what's going on in the 1:37:50.680 --> 1:37:54.479 Chinese Internet because it's effectively siloed. And I mean, you know, 1:37:54.600 --> 1:37:56.599 there's there's, there's there's there's lots different ways to silo. 1:37:56.760 --> 1:37:58.840 I mean there's there's literally the Great Firewall. There's factors 1:37:58.880 --> 1:38:00.920 and different languages, people, different apps, and you know, the 1:38:00.920 --> 1:38:03.360 Internet has become this sort of like you know, it's 1:38:03.360 --> 1:38:05.720 it's it's it's a bubbles don't interact with each other. Yeah, 1:38:05.760 --> 1:38:08.519 the wald Garden thing, and it's you know, the sort 1:38:08.560 --> 1:38:12.280 of national level world Garden stuff is I think in 1:38:12.320 --> 1:38:15.439 a lot of ways, way more dangerous than the stuff 1:38:15.479 --> 1:38:17.320 you know that like people complaining about it was sucking 1:38:17.320 --> 1:38:19.360 audio logical bubble and like that's bad. But the fact 1:38:19.360 --> 1:38:23.680 that we have bubbles like this where it's like you know, 1:38:24.040 --> 1:38:27.479 the like with with like actual they basically borders but 1:38:27.600 --> 1:38:32.120 online Yeah yeah, because they're enforced by governments with force. Yeah. Yeah, 1:38:32.160 --> 1:38:35.240 the place it was always going to go. Um, once 1:38:35.280 --> 1:38:38.160 we decided not to be rad with the internet, which 1:38:38.160 --> 1:38:42.280 everyone collectively decided in I'm going to say one thousand 1:38:42.560 --> 1:38:47.280 four Okay, yeah, do you think do you think do 1:38:47.280 --> 1:38:49.920 do you think? Do you think that was eleven fault? 1:38:50.880 --> 1:38:54.400 Nine eleven played a role. Nine eleven did play a role. Um, 1:38:54.439 --> 1:38:57.439 the dot com boom played another role. Um, there were 1:38:57.479 --> 1:39:01.479 there there, There were a number of factors. Um, but 1:39:02.040 --> 1:39:05.040 we can all blame it on let's blame it on 1:39:05.080 --> 1:39:09.160 low tax and continue. So anti work in China before 1:39:09.200 --> 1:39:12.320 we get into lying flat, which is China's version of 1:39:12.360 --> 1:39:15.320 anti work, isn't the right word because this actually started 1:39:15.360 --> 1:39:18.800 a few months before sort of anti work blew up 1:39:18.800 --> 1:39:21.400 in the US. But before we fully get into that, 1:39:22.640 --> 1:39:24.240 to understand what's going on here, we need to talk 1:39:24.240 --> 1:39:27.800 about something called involution. And did you say that again? 1:39:27.840 --> 1:39:34.720 Like inval involution? Involution? Yeah, So this this, this is 1:39:34.720 --> 1:39:38.080 this is originally this is a very obscure anthropological term 1:39:38.120 --> 1:39:42.080 developed by my old nemesis Clifford Geertz, who's one of 1:39:42.200 --> 1:39:45.040 the most famous and most important anthropologists in history, who 1:39:45.080 --> 1:39:47.760 also sucks ass, and I hate him. I thought your 1:39:47.880 --> 1:39:52.520 nemesis was Noam Chomsky. Yes, also, but for different reasons. 1:39:52.560 --> 1:39:57.360 Should I cancel the hit sub sub nemesis something? I 1:39:57.760 --> 1:40:00.240 have many I have many nemesses that I have on 1:40:00.280 --> 1:40:05.639 the side. God here Jody Dean episode at some point. Now, 1:40:06.560 --> 1:40:10.880 thank you. I appreciate allies in my one person intellectual wars, 1:40:12.000 --> 1:40:16.000 although this does seem to be a pretty boring intellectual war, yeah, 1:40:16.320 --> 1:40:21.840 said most of them. Yeah yeah, but what what what 1:40:21.880 --> 1:40:24.120 Gears was describing? Basically, so he does his field work 1:40:24.120 --> 1:40:27.519 in Java, and what are you describing? What what involution means? 1:40:27.560 --> 1:40:29.840 It's the system where people keep working harder and harder 1:40:29.840 --> 1:40:32.120 for there's no increase in output, and so that there's 1:40:32.160 --> 1:40:34.880 no there's no rewards for working harder. And so you know, 1:40:35.080 --> 1:40:37.320 in Java you'd have these plantations, right, and the plantations 1:40:37.360 --> 1:40:39.439 would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But 1:40:39.720 --> 1:40:42.400 because each new person was only like harvesting just enough 1:40:42.439 --> 1:40:46.080 to feed themselves, you never actually got any productivity increases. 1:40:46.120 --> 1:40:48.840 And so you know, Yeah, there's no there's no output 1:40:48.880 --> 1:40:53.040 increases and in not really the case in America in 1:40:53.040 --> 1:40:56.960 a lot of ways. Yeah, and what's interesting, Well, okay, 1:40:57.000 --> 1:40:59.120 so the reason I want to talk about this also 1:40:59.280 --> 1:41:03.040 is because based like everyone who's been writing about this inmation, 1:41:03.080 --> 1:41:05.599 NEUWS outlets has missed about half of the story of 1:41:05.600 --> 1:41:08.760 how how this like incredibly obscure anthropological term that like 1:41:09.479 --> 1:41:11.400 I don't like Again, I was an anthropology major. I 1:41:11.400 --> 1:41:13.320 don't think I ever ran into involution while like while 1:41:13.320 --> 1:41:16.880 I was studying anthropology. Yeah, and no one has ever 1:41:16.920 --> 1:41:20.960 heard of this, Like fucking everyone in China has like 1:41:20.960 --> 1:41:25.599 like a treatise they can spout at you about this now. Um. Yeah, 1:41:25.720 --> 1:41:27.120 and and you know, I want to talk a bit 1:41:27.120 --> 1:41:30.360 about how to emerge. And part of this is because, 1:41:31.400 --> 1:41:34.000 you know, in the last about two years, people will 1:41:34.000 --> 1:41:36.800 be getting increasingly piste off at you know, just the 1:41:36.880 --> 1:41:40.240 sort of incredibly competitive nature of Chinese society and particularly work. 1:41:40.439 --> 1:41:43.240 And you know, a lot of this is because everyone's 1:41:43.240 --> 1:41:46.679 working what's what's called, which is nine am to nine pm, 1:41:46.680 --> 1:41:49.080 six days a week. And she actually, do you make 1:41:49.080 --> 1:41:51.519 this good? When I say everyone that's like an average schedule. 1:41:51.600 --> 1:41:53.880 The schedules get a lot worse than that, But the 1:41:54.000 --> 1:41:55.600 nine six is the one that sort of gets the 1:41:55.640 --> 1:41:57.960 attention because a lot of people work in especially in 1:41:57.960 --> 1:42:00.439 the tech industry. This is you know, we do, but 1:42:00.600 --> 1:42:02.639 you know, everyone focused on the tech industry, everyone ignores 1:42:02.720 --> 1:42:05.080 a bunch of myrket workers who also do this and worse. 1:42:05.960 --> 1:42:08.479 And you know, there's just a normal societal pressure to 1:42:08.479 --> 1:42:10.879 sort of keep moving and keep competing and keep working. 1:42:11.000 --> 1:42:14.240 And simultaneously, you know, people in China today are working 1:42:14.800 --> 1:42:18.320 like basically as hard as anyone's worked in China since 1:42:18.400 --> 1:42:20.960 like people would literally collapse and missastion in the fields 1:42:20.960 --> 1:42:24.280 and the great leap forward Like that's lots of people 1:42:24.280 --> 1:42:28.160 are working this hard. And but but instead of you know, 1:42:28.240 --> 1:42:30.919 getting rewards for this, Chinese growth rates have been collapsing 1:42:31.080 --> 1:42:34.640 for a decade. And yeah, this is you know, this 1:42:34.680 --> 1:42:35.800 is this is the thing that you get. In the 1:42:35.920 --> 1:42:37.400 U s too, was like, well, okay, people were like, well, 1:42:37.400 --> 1:42:39.240 if you work out to get into the middle class, 1:42:39.280 --> 1:42:42.719 but then you know, everyone's working nine six. No one's 1:42:42.720 --> 1:42:46.000 getting into the widdle class. The like, China has incredibly 1:42:46.040 --> 1:42:50.400 low rates of social ability, and you know it into 1:42:50.439 --> 1:42:53.960 this comes involution But the weird part of what what's 1:42:54.000 --> 1:42:59.960 happening here is that involution doesn't enter the Chinese disc 1:43:00.080 --> 1:43:04.080 course through like people complaining about work. It's it's actually 1:43:04.080 --> 1:43:06.439 a product of a bunch of middle class people complaining 1:43:06.479 --> 1:43:09.240 about Chinese industrial policy. And this is the hardest story 1:43:09.240 --> 1:43:11.120 that nobody really talks about, even though I think it's 1:43:11.160 --> 1:43:14.880 it's really interesting because again like this, you know, anti 1:43:14.880 --> 1:43:16.800 anti work in the U s RS and the left 1:43:17.000 --> 1:43:20.120 right involution, which is the thing that's going to bring 1:43:20.120 --> 1:43:22.760 about sort of the Chinese version of anti work is 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:26.080 the right way is originally right wing discourse, um and 1:43:26.080 --> 1:43:27.880 and And it's interesting, it's it's it's a right wing, 1:43:28.080 --> 1:43:31.040 very nationalist discourse that gets you know, the right wing 1:43:31.040 --> 1:43:33.519 part of it gets essentially expunged and it gets pulled left. 1:43:34.280 --> 1:43:39.400 So originally, you know, China is I don't have a 1:43:39.439 --> 1:43:42.400 more elegant way of saying this than China's leaders, and 1:43:42.479 --> 1:43:45.960 more online than ours, like significantly more like they Actually 1:43:46.320 --> 1:43:52.280 that's hard, that's hard to abash it. It's people people 1:43:52.360 --> 1:43:56.360 like like local government offices right have like they they 1:43:56.400 --> 1:43:59.080 have these like internal sites that like show them what 1:43:59.120 --> 1:44:01.280 people are posting this. This goes from the from the 1:44:01.280 --> 1:44:03.360 bottom levels, it goes away to the top. Like people 1:44:03.400 --> 1:44:06.800 actually listen to bloggers like like that they're there, you know, 1:44:06.960 --> 1:44:09.080 some of them, some of the people we're about to 1:44:09.080 --> 1:44:11.479 talk about it are incredibly influential. And there's a bunch 1:44:11.479 --> 1:44:13.200 of arguments in the early two thousands about how China 1:44:13.240 --> 1:44:18.400 is going to industrialize and these are basically online arguments. UM, 1:44:18.439 --> 1:44:22.479 and the guys who win that argument r she shimping 1:44:22.600 --> 1:44:26.000 basically takes their industrial policy and implements it which is 1:44:26.040 --> 1:44:27.599 you know, which is which is scales? Like how online 1:44:27.640 --> 1:44:29.360 these people are that? Like, yeah, people are taking econot 1:44:29.400 --> 1:44:31.680 policy from like literally, I mean, you know, it's it's 1:44:31.680 --> 1:44:33.719 not solely up. I don't take a policy people arguing 1:44:33.720 --> 1:44:36.120 on the internet, right, this is this is an incredibly 1:44:36.160 --> 1:44:39.439 online society and it you know, but the worst part 1:44:39.479 --> 1:44:42.280 is that for a while it works. You know that 1:44:42.320 --> 1:44:44.400 the echonart policy basically is they're gonna increases size of 1:44:44.400 --> 1:44:46.400 the Chinese economy by investing in sort of high tech 1:44:46.400 --> 1:44:48.200 industry and moving up the value chain. This is this 1:44:48.240 --> 1:44:50.120 has been very standards or Chinese second on policy for 1:44:50.160 --> 1:44:52.960 a while. Um. The problem is in the last about 1:44:53.040 --> 1:44:56.760 decade it's it's it's stopped working. And you know, the 1:44:56.800 --> 1:44:59.559 CCPs response was to do more financialization, and this piste 1:44:59.600 --> 1:45:02.000 off the like the the online they were they were 1:45:02.000 --> 1:45:04.160 called like the Industrial Party. This this this is off those guys, 1:45:04.400 --> 1:45:06.880 because you know, the whole thing was don't financialize, just 1:45:06.960 --> 1:45:10.040 keep investing in like building airplanes and stuff, and the 1:45:10.080 --> 1:45:14.400 Chinese economies will work itself out. And but eventually even 1:45:14.479 --> 1:45:17.240 they can't keep making this argument because you know, I 1:45:17.240 --> 1:45:19.759 mean like like he doesn't tend right, Like the Chinese 1:45:19.760 --> 1:45:22.800 GDP growth rate was ten percent and now it's like 1:45:23.040 --> 1:45:25.479 maybe five and last year, I mean last year twenties, 1:45:25.560 --> 1:45:27.040 so you know it was really low. But I mean, 1:45:27.080 --> 1:45:31.680 the Chinese growth rate has been imploding. And so what 1:45:31.960 --> 1:45:33.240 you get out of this is is this group of 1:45:33.240 --> 1:45:37.880 people called the Paoists based on this guy named Cow. Okay. So, 1:45:37.880 --> 1:45:40.560 so Cow is the guy who who who essentially introduces 1:45:40.960 --> 1:45:45.840 the concept of involution and he's arguing that this is 1:45:45.880 --> 1:45:50.240 happening because I'm gonna quote him here, people can't get 1:45:50.320 --> 1:45:53.120 quote a peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in 1:45:53.120 --> 1:45:56.320 a big house because of the US. And so there's 1:45:56.360 --> 1:45:58.760 the solution to this, basically is is to deal with 1:45:58.840 --> 1:46:00.760 like to destroy America as a jem on. And then 1:46:00.800 --> 1:46:03.880 once you do that, you know you can get all 1:46:03.920 --> 1:46:05.759 of these things. And as you can tell, like you know, okay, 1:46:06.200 --> 1:46:08.240 peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in a big house. 1:46:08.280 --> 1:46:11.760 This this is like a very conservative framing of this. Yeah, yeah, 1:46:11.800 --> 1:46:13.439 I mean this is this is the Chinese equivalent of 1:46:13.520 --> 1:46:15.240 two point five kids in a white picket fence. And 1:46:15.280 --> 1:46:17.400 it has all of this sort of associated gender politics 1:46:17.400 --> 1:46:20.400 and class politics to go along with that. And you know, 1:46:20.520 --> 1:46:22.879 and when when cow and the cows are talking about involution, 1:46:22.880 --> 1:46:25.400 what they're talking about is they literally they literally mean 1:46:25.479 --> 1:46:28.160 Chinese dignated economy, right, so that they're talking about, okay, 1:46:28.200 --> 1:46:30.200 that you have more inputs, you have labor, technology inputs, 1:46:30.200 --> 1:46:32.000 but the output for input is declining, and the only 1:46:32.000 --> 1:46:35.080 way to restore economic growth the chief prosperity is by 1:46:35.080 --> 1:46:39.519 solving a decline output by defeating the Americans. But you know, 1:46:39.640 --> 1:46:41.400 and and this this is kind of a big deal. 1:46:41.560 --> 1:46:44.000 And for a while, in sort of like twenty this 1:46:44.000 --> 1:46:48.040 this is, this is going places, but very quickly people 1:46:48.080 --> 1:46:51.320 are like, my life fucking sucks, Like I don't care 1:46:51.400 --> 1:46:54.360 about this econ ship or this, like grand national struggle 1:46:54.360 --> 1:46:57.000 against the world hedgemon, Like I care about the fact that, 1:46:57.040 --> 1:46:59.960 like my life is this incredibly pointless, ever escalating rat 1:47:00.160 --> 1:47:03.120 race with like literally no rewards. Yeah, that would that 1:47:03.120 --> 1:47:05.519 would concern me too, if that were a thing that 1:47:05.600 --> 1:47:09.800 we were capable of feeling in our country. Yeah, it's there. 1:47:09.880 --> 1:47:11.920 There's been some really funny stuff with involution where like 1:47:12.560 --> 1:47:16.360 you read accounts of it and you'll get like anthropologists 1:47:16.400 --> 1:47:17.840 going like, oh, yeah, this is this is the thing 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:19.559 that this is the thing that's unique to China, and 1:47:19.560 --> 1:47:23.439 it's like have have you worked a job in in 1:47:23.520 --> 1:47:29.519 the US? Like, but you know involution, you know what 1:47:29.640 --> 1:47:31.439 happens to it over over the course of sort of 1:47:32.439 --> 1:47:34.800 it goes from being the general you know, it goes 1:47:34.880 --> 1:47:37.120 it goes from being this thing that's about like very 1:47:37.200 --> 1:47:41.920 specific like technical industrial arguments about industrial policy too. Is 1:47:41.960 --> 1:47:45.040 when one anthropologists put it, quote the experience of being 1:47:45.120 --> 1:47:49.840 locked in competition that one ultimately knows as meaningless. And 1:47:49.880 --> 1:47:53.599 so people are, yeah, we could we couldn't imagine that 1:47:53.640 --> 1:47:57.479 this is yeah, and it's you know, and people people 1:47:57.479 --> 1:48:00.960 start talking about finding individual solutions to of this, and 1:48:01.000 --> 1:48:02.800 so you know, then this is things like working last 1:48:02.840 --> 1:48:07.600 moving to lower tier city is getting less protgious jobs. Um, 1:48:07.640 --> 1:48:09.240 but you know, and I want to think about this 1:48:09.280 --> 1:48:12.880 again because this this is a really interesting thing where 1:48:13.960 --> 1:48:18.559 you have a very incredibly right wing, nationalistic and sort 1:48:18.600 --> 1:48:22.040 of like like middle class like nostalgia kind of like 1:48:22.760 --> 1:48:28.400 you know, like Milt aggressive foreign policy thing and then 1:48:28.439 --> 1:48:32.240 it just flips. And and part of how it flips 1:48:32.360 --> 1:48:34.960 and this is a part of the story that is 1:48:35.320 --> 1:48:38.360 almost completely ignored, But I think it's really important. Do 1:48:38.479 --> 1:48:40.600 you guys know about this? The YouTuber named leads It. 1:48:40.720 --> 1:48:44.480 She she's the biggest Chinese YouTuber. She has sixteen million followers, 1:48:45.160 --> 1:48:47.599 and most of her followers are not on YouTube because 1:48:47.600 --> 1:48:50.479 you know, YouTube like blocked by the firewall. But she 1:48:50.560 --> 1:48:55.040 has she has fifty five million followers on the sort 1:48:55.040 --> 1:48:58.240 of Chinese version of TikTok, and yeah, she has across 1:48:58.240 --> 1:49:00.559 the world. She has a hundred million followers, right. She 1:49:00.560 --> 1:49:02.639 she's she's one of the biggest media stars in the world. 1:49:02.840 --> 1:49:06.040 And her origins are kind of unclear. The like official 1:49:06.040 --> 1:49:08.960 biography basically says that like when she was twelve, instead 1:49:08.960 --> 1:49:10.960 of going to high school, she's being a waitress and 1:49:11.000 --> 1:49:12.559 then she had to like you know, but she she 1:49:12.560 --> 1:49:13.720 she'd gone to the city and then she had to 1:49:13.720 --> 1:49:16.200 return to Revels to take care of her grandma. And 1:49:16.240 --> 1:49:19.719 she makes these videos that are these like very soft 1:49:19.800 --> 1:49:22.400 and calming videos or like calming music of her going 1:49:22.439 --> 1:49:25.320 into the woods and like harvesting materials and making fires 1:49:25.360 --> 1:49:29.479 out of logs and like cooking things. Okay, and it's 1:49:29.479 --> 1:49:30.960 it's it's just like it's you know, it's it's very 1:49:31.040 --> 1:49:34.200 much this this really utopianism. There's there's basically no industrial 1:49:34.200 --> 1:49:39.760 technology like Cottage Corp returned to Nature. Yeah. Yeah, I 1:49:40.080 --> 1:49:41.599 know a lot of people who watched it like that 1:49:41.680 --> 1:49:43.639 just to like soothe them after a day of work. 1:49:43.720 --> 1:49:46.479 Like see somebody like dig a cave and turn it 1:49:46.520 --> 1:49:49.200 into like a bath or something using just hand tools 1:49:49.280 --> 1:49:51.720 or whatever. Yeah, And there's it's interesting that this kind 1:49:51.760 --> 1:49:53.800 of it's almost like turned into a sub genre. But 1:49:54.760 --> 1:50:00.080 she's by far the biggest like version of this. And 1:50:00.160 --> 1:50:01.479 you know, so she she gets picked up by a 1:50:01.520 --> 1:50:06.760 media company and from goes viral. And you know it's 1:50:06.800 --> 1:50:09.640 interesting because so she's doing this because so she she 1:50:09.680 --> 1:50:11.559 has to go back to take care of her grandma, 1:50:11.600 --> 1:50:13.960 and so she like opens a store and she's trying 1:50:13.960 --> 1:50:15.960 to support herself but and like her grandma by opening 1:50:15.960 --> 1:50:17.559 this store, and so the videos were like a way 1:50:17.600 --> 1:50:20.240 to promote the store. And then you know, now she 1:50:20.280 --> 1:50:22.519 has a hundred million followers and she she gets adopted 1:50:22.560 --> 1:50:26.160 as this kind of like like national culture ambassador, I 1:50:26.160 --> 1:50:29.080 guess by the state. Sure, And and it's just you know, 1:50:29.160 --> 1:50:31.760 so there's nothing overtly political about these videos at all, right, 1:50:31.880 --> 1:50:34.320 which is especially offering and like trying to sell is 1:50:34.360 --> 1:50:36.639 this you know, this like fantasy of retreat from industrial 1:50:36.680 --> 1:50:39.599 majority into world life. And I think it's really easy 1:50:39.640 --> 1:50:41.439 to look at that esthetic and go like this is 1:50:41.479 --> 1:50:44.120 basically fascist, Like this is rejecting majority embraced here issues. 1:50:44.200 --> 1:50:47.280 Some people online when they see that immediately sees after 1:50:47.280 --> 1:50:51.679 I was like, oh no, it's eco fascist, Yes that yeah, 1:50:51.680 --> 1:50:53.680 And I think, you know, and I think like that 1:50:53.720 --> 1:50:56.080 interpretation I think is actually a lot of y I 1:50:56.080 --> 1:50:58.040 got picked up by the Chinese, by Chinese media companies 1:50:58.040 --> 1:50:59.920 and then like sort of by the Chinese state because 1:51:00.720 --> 1:51:03.880 you know, like having an actual positive utopian image of 1:51:03.960 --> 1:51:05.920 rural life is politically useul with them, and something that's 1:51:05.960 --> 1:51:10.240 like not hasn't been true since like we've had this 1:51:10.280 --> 1:51:13.240 for a long time. Yeah, well no, and I think 1:51:13.240 --> 1:51:14.439 I would say this this. I think this is the 1:51:14.439 --> 1:51:16.360 thing that's different in China is that there hasn't been 1:51:16.360 --> 1:51:20.479 like a positive conception of rural life really since I 1:51:21.280 --> 1:51:23.720 guess the greatly forwards and then are like there there 1:51:23.720 --> 1:51:25.160 were some people in the Cultural Revolution, but then they 1:51:25.160 --> 1:51:27.000 actually went there and we're like, oh god, this sucks, 1:51:28.120 --> 1:51:29.760 and so you know, so they need a new one. 1:51:29.800 --> 1:51:32.680 They come up with this. But you know, the thing 1:51:32.720 --> 1:51:36.960 that's different about China than the US is that China's 1:51:37.000 --> 1:51:40.240 maket worker population like is almost the entire size of 1:51:40.240 --> 1:51:41.920 the population of the US. I mean it's it's like 1:51:41.960 --> 1:51:44.679 two seventy million people, right, I mean it's it's enormous 1:51:44.720 --> 1:51:46.800 and a huge number of these people, you know, I'm 1:51:46.840 --> 1:51:48.760 some of these people are going from like city to city. 1:51:48.760 --> 1:51:49.840 You're like town of town, but a lot of these 1:51:49.840 --> 1:51:52.639 people are coming from from rural villages into cities. And 1:51:53.439 --> 1:51:54.680 you know, I mean these are this is this is 1:51:54.680 --> 1:51:56.400 the background of the Chinese workforce. And like these people 1:51:56.640 --> 1:52:00.400 like they see their family once a year because you know, 1:52:00.439 --> 1:52:02.439 like they can't afford to go home, so they go 1:52:02.479 --> 1:52:04.240 home once a year for New Year's because they get 1:52:04.240 --> 1:52:05.960 some time, often they come back and and this is 1:52:06.040 --> 1:52:11.240 where you know, like these videos are obvious fantasy, but 1:52:11.400 --> 1:52:13.360 you know, they suggest an alternative to work in the 1:52:13.400 --> 1:52:15.479 capitalist city that's sort of plausible, you know, especially if 1:52:15.479 --> 1:52:18.200 you come from rural village. And this is where this 1:52:18.240 --> 1:52:22.880 whole thing completely backfires on the Chinese ruling class. And 1:52:23.200 --> 1:52:26.080 you know, because this this, this this cowisted involution discourse 1:52:26.120 --> 1:52:30.320 is about diffuse with this style of rural rural utopianism 1:52:30.320 --> 1:52:32.120 into a movement that is going to shake the foundation 1:52:32.160 --> 1:52:37.360 of work itself. But first, but first, ads again also 1:52:37.720 --> 1:52:42.000 not connecting to anything. We're talking Conever, why Garrison, don't 1:52:42.040 --> 1:52:44.559 even bring that up. There's no needs, there's no reason 1:52:44.600 --> 1:52:48.200 for people to think about about the fact that about that. 1:52:48.360 --> 1:52:52.639 Don't think anyway, here's about ads. Yeah, think about the 1:52:52.680 --> 1:52:57.280 Washington State Highway Patrol primary sponsors off it could happen here. 1:52:57.560 --> 1:53:02.559 If it happens to you, you'll want the Washington State 1:53:02.640 --> 1:53:08.400 Highway Patrol the border. It's so funny. Anyway, we're trying 1:53:08.439 --> 1:53:11.719 to but I think it's we're working on it. People. 1:53:11.880 --> 1:53:16.360 I think it's hilarious. Yeah, please don't please don't join 1:53:16.400 --> 1:53:21.200 the Washington State Highway Patrol. Ah, we're back, and I 1:53:21.200 --> 1:53:23.880 don't know about y'all, but I thought I knew what 1:53:23.960 --> 1:53:26.680 I was talking about, and I after those ads, I 1:53:26.680 --> 1:53:30.280 am fully Washington State Highway Patrol build. I'm on board. 1:53:30.439 --> 1:53:34.200 Let's do it. Yeah. In April, a guy in Chinese 1:53:34.240 --> 1:53:40.760 social media makes a post and I'm just gonna so, Yeah, 1:53:40.760 --> 1:53:42.280 I'm just gonna read this post because it's kind of 1:53:42.280 --> 1:53:45.599 short and it rules. I haven't been working for two years. 1:53:45.840 --> 1:53:47.679 I have just been hanging around, and I don't see 1:53:47.680 --> 1:53:50.599 anything wrong with This pressure mainly comes from the generation 1:53:50.640 --> 1:53:52.759 with your peers and the values of the older generation. 1:53:53.160 --> 1:53:56.000 These pressures keep popping up, but we don't have to 1:53:56.040 --> 1:53:58.640 abide by these norms. I can live like Diogenes and 1:53:58.640 --> 1:54:01.760 sleep in a wooden bucket week so I can live 1:54:01.800 --> 1:54:05.000 like Heracletus in a cave thinking about logos. Since this 1:54:05.120 --> 1:54:08.040 land has never had a school thought that upholds human subjectivity, 1:54:08.080 --> 1:54:10.439 I can develop one of my own. Lying down is 1:54:10.479 --> 1:54:13.679 my philosophical movements. Only through lying flat can humans become 1:54:13.720 --> 1:54:18.080 the measure of all things based. Oh my god, that's 1:54:18.120 --> 1:54:21.479 the best. I love that. Can I talk about Diogenes now? 1:54:23.439 --> 1:54:27.799 So my my man, Diogenes is he's from this trend 1:54:27.880 --> 1:54:31.080 in Greek philosophical thought during kind of the high period 1:54:31.120 --> 1:54:35.400 of Greek civilization, where a bunch of things come out 1:54:35.400 --> 1:54:38.240 of it. You kind of get anarchism, Western anarchism out 1:54:38.240 --> 1:54:41.240 of it, You kind of get you get elements of 1:54:41.280 --> 1:54:43.640 like Puritan culture from it, because there are a lot 1:54:43.680 --> 1:54:46.160 of them are very much anti like the pleasures of 1:54:46.200 --> 1:54:48.720 sex and like anything pleasing, and like you don't you 1:54:48.720 --> 1:54:50.680 don't do anything that feels good because then you become 1:54:50.720 --> 1:54:52.280 dependent on it. Like there's a whole bunch of ship 1:54:52.320 --> 1:54:55.240 going on um. And Diogenes was like one of the 1:54:55.400 --> 1:54:57.680 one of the first motherfucker's who were kind of playing 1:54:57.720 --> 1:55:01.640 around in this in this philosoph tropical space. And when 1:55:01.640 --> 1:55:05.280 he gets into so his early life is his dad 1:55:05.760 --> 1:55:09.640 is uh kind of a grifter. It sounds like we 1:55:09.720 --> 1:55:12.200 know that he got in trouble. He and his dad 1:55:12.200 --> 1:55:16.520 got exiled for debasing currency, which could be as simple 1:55:16.600 --> 1:55:19.600 as they were watering down for lack of a better term, 1:55:19.640 --> 1:55:22.120 like the gold or silver and currency with less precious 1:55:22.120 --> 1:55:24.520 metals and hiding it in order to make a profit, 1:55:24.640 --> 1:55:26.920 right and like keep the extra gold that could be 1:55:26.960 --> 1:55:28.960 what they were doing it also could have been like 1:55:29.280 --> 1:55:31.400 it could have been political, because some people who were 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:34.000 doing this in Sinope, I think is the city which 1:55:34.040 --> 1:55:36.640 is now in Turkey, we're doing it for political reasons. 1:55:36.640 --> 1:55:39.920 We don't really know why. But there's actual documented archaeological 1:55:39.960 --> 1:55:41.960 evidence of this, including right around the time he would 1:55:41.960 --> 1:55:44.640 have been a child, we found from that period a 1:55:44.800 --> 1:55:49.200 cash of debased gold and silver coins that had been destroyed, 1:55:49.240 --> 1:55:51.920 so someone had like realized they've been debased and destroyed 1:55:51.960 --> 1:55:53.960 them so they couldn't be used. So there's evidence. Anyway, 1:55:54.120 --> 1:55:56.040 he and his dad get exiled, which means from an 1:55:56.040 --> 1:55:58.840 early stage he goes from being somewhat of means, if 1:55:58.880 --> 1:56:02.200 your dad's making the currency, you're not probably not like 1:56:02.240 --> 1:56:06.200 a poor family um. And then they get kicked out 1:56:06.240 --> 1:56:08.200 of their city state and they're like kind of stateless, 1:56:08.600 --> 1:56:13.440 and so Diogenes evolves over time and like gets into philosophy. 1:56:13.640 --> 1:56:15.680 He tries to there's this I always forget the name 1:56:15.720 --> 1:56:17.440 of the guy that he he loved it first, but 1:56:17.480 --> 1:56:20.960 there's this philosopher who's like, you know, this cynical like 1:56:21.040 --> 1:56:22.760 that's the school of thought he comes from. He's like 1:56:22.800 --> 1:56:25.600 a cynic um that Diogenes really wants to study from, 1:56:25.600 --> 1:56:28.760 and the guy like assaults him as as Diogenes is like, hey, man, 1:56:28.800 --> 1:56:30.640 I want to learn from you. Like he like hits 1:56:30.720 --> 1:56:33.680 him or something. This keeps happening, and eventually he's like 1:56:34.280 --> 1:56:36.080 this guy is like why do you keep doing this? 1:56:36.160 --> 1:56:39.920 And Diogenes is like, you have something I can learn from? Uh, 1:56:39.920 --> 1:56:41.480 And so I don't really care what you do to me. 1:56:41.520 --> 1:56:43.520 I'm gonna I'm gonna keep persisting. And so he becomes 1:56:43.520 --> 1:56:45.920 this guy's student, YadA YadA. And the guy who he 1:56:45.960 --> 1:56:48.240 becomes the student of is like kind of a poser 1:56:48.240 --> 1:56:50.480 because he's talking about like we need to give up 1:56:50.520 --> 1:56:52.800 you know, these kind of like pleasures of of like 1:56:52.920 --> 1:56:56.200 civilized life and and return to a more simple time 1:56:56.240 --> 1:56:58.360 and like not enjoy all of these, you know, the 1:56:58.400 --> 1:57:00.520 benefits of wealth. But he like he's also a rich 1:57:00.560 --> 1:57:03.240 guy and he doesn't give up his money, and Diogenes 1:57:03.440 --> 1:57:06.840 is like poor as hell um and stays that way um. 1:57:06.960 --> 1:57:08.960 And so he becomes famous for he goes to Athens 1:57:08.960 --> 1:57:11.120 and he becomes famous for a bunch of like troll 1:57:11.160 --> 1:57:13.800 ship we don't actually have. He wrote like ten books, 1:57:14.040 --> 1:57:16.160 we don't have any of them, so we don't actually 1:57:16.200 --> 1:57:19.400 like know what he actually wrote in his philosophy. We 1:57:19.520 --> 1:57:22.560 just have stories from other philosophers and it's all Diogenes 1:57:22.600 --> 1:57:26.320 being a fucking troll. So like um on one occasion, 1:57:26.600 --> 1:57:29.600 he one of his big things was he believed that 1:57:29.640 --> 1:57:33.360 people that if if something was an acceptable behavior, it 1:57:33.440 --> 1:57:36.440 was an acceptable behavior everywhere, right, And so the start 1:57:36.440 --> 1:57:38.680 of this was in in Athens, you were supposed to 1:57:38.720 --> 1:57:40.800 go buy your food in the market, but you weren't 1:57:40.800 --> 1:57:43.320 supposed to eat it there. That was like considered rude, 1:57:43.560 --> 1:57:47.160 like like like like kind of obscene almost, and Diogenes 1:57:47.200 --> 1:57:49.840 would like get food and then usually by begging, because 1:57:49.840 --> 1:57:51.400 he was that was the way he got everything. He 1:57:51.440 --> 1:57:53.280 had no money. He would like get food and he 1:57:53.280 --> 1:57:54.720 would eat it right in the middle of the market, 1:57:54.760 --> 1:57:57.520 and everybody was like, that's disgusting, and Diogenes would be like, well, 1:57:57.680 --> 1:57:59.320 if it's okay for me to eat, it must be 1:57:59.400 --> 1:58:02.960 okay for me to eat here. That's great. Diogenes took 1:58:02.960 --> 1:58:04.720 it a little bit further than that, because yeah, I 1:58:04.800 --> 1:58:06.560 can yeah, I can see a few ways you can 1:58:06.640 --> 1:58:09.280 take this. He extended that too, if it's fine for 1:58:09.280 --> 1:58:13.440 me to urinator ship, it's fine for me to do 1:58:12.440 --> 1:58:17.000 and he defended himself masturbating and well we can get 1:58:17.000 --> 1:58:20.040 people in public as if this is okay for me 1:58:20.120 --> 1:58:23.879 to do in my bedroom, why can't I do this here? Right? Um, 1:58:24.640 --> 1:58:28.160 it's very like he's he's he's a troll um Diogenes, 1:58:28.160 --> 1:58:31.040 and he's also like again, the stories we have him 1:58:31.320 --> 1:58:34.240 is he is like uber an aesthetic, so like at 1:58:34.280 --> 1:58:36.480 one point, for a long time, the only thing he 1:58:36.520 --> 1:58:39.400 owns is a wooden bowl that's his cup and and 1:58:39.600 --> 1:58:43.200 for his food. And then according to you know legend, 1:58:43.280 --> 1:58:46.480 he sees this poor peasant child drinking from like cupped 1:58:46.480 --> 1:58:48.440 hands and he throws away his bowl and he's really 1:58:48.480 --> 1:58:50.640 angry and he's like, god, damn it, I spent all 1:58:50.640 --> 1:58:53.920 this effort carrying around something useless, like I said, ship 1:58:53.920 --> 1:58:58.560 in my hands. He's he's a very entertaining character and 1:58:58.600 --> 1:59:04.800 a very like yeah, he's absolutely an eugle um and 1:59:05.040 --> 1:59:07.960 he's yeah, he's just kind of like an endearing piece 1:59:07.960 --> 1:59:11.000 of shit, is like his the idea you get, but 1:59:11.080 --> 1:59:15.560 also like smarter than I mean, because because fundamentally what 1:59:15.600 --> 1:59:18.240 Diogenes is doing is he's he's saying, like, hey, all 1:59:18.280 --> 1:59:20.400 this stuff that we think is important and good about 1:59:20.400 --> 1:59:24.040 our culture and and like valuable. What if it wasn't, 1:59:24.080 --> 1:59:26.360 what if none of it matters. He's like he's provoking 1:59:26.360 --> 1:59:28.840 the thick and he's he's big into like one of 1:59:28.920 --> 1:59:31.240 his his Like the things he comes back to a 1:59:31.240 --> 1:59:34.280 lot is that like dogs are clearly happier than us 1:59:34.320 --> 1:59:36.240 and like better creatures than us, so we should just 1:59:36.280 --> 1:59:39.560 seek to be like dogs. Um. And one of the 1:59:39.560 --> 1:59:41.480 ways he might have died is getting bitten by a 1:59:41.520 --> 1:59:43.680 dog and his bike kidding infected. We don't really know 1:59:43.720 --> 1:59:46.520 how he died. Um. You ever thing about Theogenese, This 1:59:46.560 --> 1:59:53.520 guy fucking hates rich people. Oh he's he's and he's 1:59:53.640 --> 1:59:56.880 very funny about it. So Alexander the Great apocryphal lee 1:59:56.880 --> 1:59:59.280 Maybe that's probably never happened. But the story is that 1:59:59.280 --> 2:00:02.960 Alexander the Great comes to Athens, you know, while he's 2:00:03.000 --> 2:00:06.600 on his his blitz through conquering the known world, and 2:00:06.800 --> 2:00:09.920 finds Diogenes. Alexander the Great was like raised by Aristotle, right, 2:00:09.960 --> 2:00:13.520 so he knows his philosophy. Guys, like he's he's he's 2:00:13.600 --> 2:00:16.280 seeking Diogenes out because he's a fan of this dude, 2:00:16.440 --> 2:00:18.600 probably through stories that were told to him. In the 2:00:18.640 --> 2:00:21.000 same way that like I'm telling them to you now. 2:00:21.320 --> 2:00:23.040 So he like comes up to Diogenes and he's like, 2:00:23.040 --> 2:00:25.720 oh my god, I'm Alexander the Great. I'm a big fan. 2:00:26.000 --> 2:00:28.120 If I couldn't be Alexander the Great, I would want 2:00:28.120 --> 2:00:31.320 to be Diogenes um. And Diogenes response, well, if I 2:00:31.320 --> 2:00:34.480 couldn't be Diogenes, I would just want to be Diogenes, 2:00:34.640 --> 2:00:38.440 which is a fucking flex again but probably never happened. 2:00:38.480 --> 2:00:41.080 But like, I want to, I want to read this 2:00:41.240 --> 2:00:46.440 meme that Garrison sent me because it happens. It's absolutely 2:00:46.440 --> 2:00:48.640 the perfect Ryptian of what what this whole thing is 2:00:48.680 --> 2:00:51.680 sort of about. So okay, this is me. The philosopher 2:00:51.720 --> 2:00:54.480 Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was 2:00:54.520 --> 2:00:57.680 seen by the philosopher or a process gust name Aristippus, 2:00:58.320 --> 2:01:02.040 who he doesn't matter, some dead Greek guy who's about 2:01:02.040 --> 2:01:06.600 to get absolutely destroyed. He's living comfortably like flattering the king. 2:01:07.280 --> 2:01:10.400 Aristipis says, if you would learn to be subservient to 2:01:10.440 --> 2:01:12.240 the king, you would not have to live on lentils. 2:01:12.400 --> 2:01:15.440 Diogenes should flied, learn to live on lentils, and you 2:01:15.440 --> 2:01:18.440 will not have to be subservient to the king. Oh, 2:01:19.040 --> 2:01:23.360 all sorts of based ship like that. My favorite So 2:01:23.480 --> 2:01:28.080 our guy Plato is like is like trying to determine, 2:01:28.080 --> 2:01:31.920 trying to define like a human in the simplest way possible. Yes, yeah, 2:01:32.200 --> 2:01:34.320 like the Platonic idea. And he was, so he comes 2:01:34.360 --> 2:01:36.440 to the inclusion that like, well, it's a it's a 2:01:36.560 --> 2:01:40.800 it's a it's an unwinged biped um, and Diogenes supposedly 2:01:40.840 --> 2:01:44.040 goes grabs a plucked chicken and says, behold a man, 2:01:44.600 --> 2:01:50.640 like I found a dude. Rules um. He would he 2:01:50.640 --> 2:01:53.640 would famously walk around town in broad daylight with like 2:01:53.720 --> 2:01:56.640 a what do you call it, like a lantern, like 2:01:56.720 --> 2:01:58.520 looking around and people like, what are you looking for? 2:01:58.560 --> 2:02:00.400 It's like I'm looking for a man? He like, look 2:02:00.400 --> 2:02:01.920 at a dude, and you're like, I'm looking for a man. 2:02:02.480 --> 2:02:04.520 And as it is to say, like, none of you 2:02:04.600 --> 2:02:07.400 motherfucker's are people like you all think that you're human beings, 2:02:07.400 --> 2:02:10.000 but you're really just pieces of ship. It's just an 2:02:10.000 --> 2:02:12.800 amazing asshole. Sorry that that we should move back to 2:02:12.840 --> 2:02:17.400 anti work, but that's yeah, yeah, but and this is 2:02:17.520 --> 2:02:19.880 this is the funny that both both both American and 2:02:20.000 --> 2:02:26.280 Chinese like anti work people. Both fucking love Diogenes. Yeah, 2:02:26.320 --> 2:02:30.040 you know, very popular on our slash anti work. Yeah, 2:02:30.600 --> 2:02:32.880 and you know, and the thing I was reading about 2:02:32.920 --> 2:02:34.640 the like, you know, learn to live on lentils and 2:02:34.640 --> 2:02:37.880 you'll never like after such a game by King that 2:02:37.880 --> 2:02:41.959 that's a lot of what lying down becomes. So very rapidly, 2:02:42.720 --> 2:02:48.800 this whole thing spreads into this like really it's a 2:02:48.880 --> 2:02:51.360 sort of astounding, you know, it starts out of the 2:02:51.440 --> 2:02:55.160 me and it spreads incredibly quickly, and the CCP gets 2:02:55.240 --> 2:02:59.480 like really really mad about this. Um so, so it's 2:02:59.480 --> 2:03:01.560 like it's this. This starts in April, right, and in 2:03:01.680 --> 2:03:05.280 May there's they have this like enormous media blitz where 2:03:05.360 --> 2:03:09.240 like like the party is like outlet basically, and Guandong 2:03:09.320 --> 2:03:12.080 publishes like a four page long attack on the concept 2:03:12.080 --> 2:03:14.280 of lying down, like the cc the end of the 2:03:14.360 --> 2:03:17.160 newspapers everywhere published this stuff. Like the CCP like bands 2:03:17.440 --> 2:03:20.840 term la wee chat. Yeah, and it's funny because it's 2:03:20.840 --> 2:03:22.280 like if they do this, but it's too late, like 2:03:22.280 --> 2:03:28.240 it's yeah, and you know, so, so part part of 2:03:28.240 --> 2:03:29.880 a lying down is is about, you know, you have 2:03:29.920 --> 2:03:32.760 this incredibly fast paced, intense work culture, you have involution, 2:03:32.880 --> 2:03:34.640 you're working more and more and you're getting nothing out 2:03:34.640 --> 2:03:37.160 of it. The lion flat is just going no, like 2:03:37.360 --> 2:03:40.560 you just lie down, you refuse to work. But it's 2:03:40.560 --> 2:03:42.080 it's it's also it's more than that. And I think 2:03:42.080 --> 2:03:43.520 this is this goes back to the sort of broader 2:03:43.560 --> 2:03:46.320 conception of anti work. So on one of the slogans 2:03:46.840 --> 2:03:50.200 of this movement is don't bribe property, don't buy a car, 2:03:50.360 --> 2:03:54.680 don't get married, don't have children, and don't consume. And 2:03:54.720 --> 2:03:56.160 you know that the the last part of this is implied 2:03:56.200 --> 2:03:59.120 is don't work. And you know, there's a lot sort 2:03:59.160 --> 2:04:01.400 of going on here. I mean, you have you know, 2:04:02.160 --> 2:04:04.480 it's not just sort of a critique of like we 2:04:04.560 --> 2:04:06.640 work too hard. It's about you know, it's about the 2:04:06.640 --> 2:04:08.680 sort of fall system. It's about the sort of patriarchy 2:04:08.720 --> 2:04:10.640 involved in this. It's about this sort of like force 2:04:10.680 --> 2:04:15.120 capitalist consumption. It's about like, you know, the fact that 2:04:15.160 --> 2:04:18.480 like literally a quarter of Chinese of China's economy or 2:04:18.520 --> 2:04:22.440 Chinese GDP is like all this real estate bullshit that 2:04:22.560 --> 2:04:24.720 everyone knows who is going to collapse and even when 2:04:24.720 --> 2:04:27.120 it gets built like sucks. Thank god we don't have 2:04:27.160 --> 2:04:29.680 anything like that here. Yeah, I know, it's great It's 2:04:29.680 --> 2:04:31.280 one of one of the fun things about learned histories. 2:04:31.280 --> 2:04:33.920 You can just watch every country do exactly the same 2:04:33.920 --> 2:04:37.160 thing with their housing market, like Japan do it. It's 2:04:37.200 --> 2:04:39.760 like it's great, It's just like you also you think 2:04:39.760 --> 2:04:42.520 this will work? What what what extra fun thing is 2:04:42.560 --> 2:04:44.520 you get to watch every country do the same thing 2:04:44.560 --> 2:04:51.280 with farms and it always ended the same anyway. Yes, 2:04:51.360 --> 2:04:55.000 So there's there's a lot of you know, in order 2:04:55.040 --> 2:04:57.120 to sort of like facilitate this, you know, you get 2:04:57.120 --> 2:04:58.960 back to the Diogenes, So a lot of it what's 2:04:58.960 --> 2:05:02.280 happening is people sharing tips about how to make the 2:05:02.360 --> 2:05:04.800 cheapest food you can possibly survive on so you don't 2:05:04.800 --> 2:05:08.440 have to work, and so you know, and people the 2:05:09.240 --> 2:05:12.840 guy who wrote the Diogenes post like he spends thirty 2:05:12.880 --> 2:05:15.280 dollars a month and he does this by only eating 2:05:15.360 --> 2:05:20.640 dried ramen and eggs and like rice. Yeah, yeah, on 2:05:20.760 --> 2:05:25.160 the way to do it. This is like the most 2:05:25.200 --> 2:05:27.160 extreme example. I actually, I don't even think it is 2:05:27.160 --> 2:05:31.360 the most atreme example. A lot of people. One of 2:05:31.360 --> 2:05:32.440 the things that happens a lot is a bunch of 2:05:32.440 --> 2:05:34.760 people just like have left their jobs to become monks. 2:05:35.280 --> 2:05:40.320 This this is like a whole thing Buddhist, like honestly, 2:05:41.560 --> 2:05:45.600 like absolutely, And I used to live in a place 2:05:45.680 --> 2:05:48.320 in the middle of fucking nowhere, one of the most 2:05:48.600 --> 2:05:52.520 like isolated places I've ever lived that like had power 2:05:53.240 --> 2:05:55.880 um and one of the people who was like by neighbor, 2:05:55.960 --> 2:05:59.000 they were within several miles of us, was a monastery. 2:05:59.160 --> 2:06:01.560 This is in the United States, and like I went 2:06:01.600 --> 2:06:03.520 there once too because I heard they made good wine 2:06:03.560 --> 2:06:05.120 to try and get some of their wine, and like 2:06:05.200 --> 2:06:06.920 none of them would answer the door. I could see 2:06:06.920 --> 2:06:09.960 them inside all staring at me. They didn't do ship 2:06:10.400 --> 2:06:13.120 and my my overwhelming thought was like, yeah, that seems 2:06:13.120 --> 2:06:16.320 like a pretty good way to do it. Yeah, I 2:06:16.920 --> 2:06:19.000 see why you guys have picked this life. It was 2:06:19.040 --> 2:06:23.520 also during the election back from the r n C 2:06:23.720 --> 2:06:25.680 and the d n C and was like, yeah, that 2:06:25.720 --> 2:06:30.120 seems smarter than what I'm doing. Yeah. So there's a 2:06:30.120 --> 2:06:32.160 lot of you know, yeah, that'd be the stream example, 2:06:32.160 --> 2:06:33.760 like if people going to become monks. But like one 2:06:33.800 --> 2:06:35.920 of the things that's happening a lot is again, you know, 2:06:36.000 --> 2:06:39.440 China hasn't known its macrotworker population, and people are just 2:06:39.520 --> 2:06:43.760 like fuck this, I'm going back to my village, and 2:06:43.760 --> 2:06:45.040 so and you know, and this is you know, this 2:06:45.160 --> 2:06:46.840 this this, this is where they really screwed up with 2:06:46.880 --> 2:06:49.800 the YouTube stuff because you know, people were people, you know, 2:06:50.080 --> 2:06:52.720 they were gambling that that you know, you could just 2:06:52.760 --> 2:06:54.600 sell this as an aesthetic, and you know, you can't 2:06:54.600 --> 2:06:57.600 sell it as an aesthetic like Chinese TikTok has this 2:06:57.720 --> 2:07:00.800 integrated thing in it. Were like, if if you plug 2:07:01.040 --> 2:07:04.880 like something to buy it, like you can like click 2:07:04.960 --> 2:07:06.840 it and it'll just it'll take you like to a 2:07:06.920 --> 2:07:09.080 link like to to to to the thing it's selling, 2:07:10.360 --> 2:07:11.520 you know. And so yeah, they don't make a norse 2:07:11.520 --> 2:07:13.200 amount of money on this, but you know, the the 2:07:13.360 --> 2:07:15.400 the other side of that sword is a bunch of 2:07:15.400 --> 2:07:18.320 people were like, I don't have to work this Like 2:07:19.040 --> 2:07:21.560 I don't have to work in a city. I can 2:07:21.600 --> 2:07:25.680 just go home. Yeah, and you know, and you know, 2:07:25.720 --> 2:07:27.480 and you know, so you know, as you're talking about 2:07:27.520 --> 2:07:30.600 the antiwork stuff, it's not actually possible for a lot 2:07:30.640 --> 2:07:34.840 of people to leave their jobs. So the solution to 2:07:34.960 --> 2:07:40.040 this was there there's a culture that developed called petting fish, 2:07:40.400 --> 2:07:42.840 which and but but before you talking about petting fish, 2:07:42.880 --> 2:07:46.480 you said something about uh, plugging things on TikTok, and 2:07:46.600 --> 2:07:49.560 you know, who you know, you know, like plugging like advertisements, 2:07:49.800 --> 2:07:53.360 and you know who also plugs plugs advertisements? Chris, Oh no, 2:07:53.640 --> 2:07:58.600 is it us? But our new sponsor is the Joe 2:07:58.680 --> 2:08:03.960 Rogan Experience, brought to you by Honda Honda Drive a Car, 2:08:05.000 --> 2:08:10.400 Do Fascism? Honda? Really? Yeah, Honda Garrison. Look, we don't 2:08:10.440 --> 2:08:12.920 We're not nearly a big enough podcast to get fucking 2:08:13.800 --> 2:08:17.280 to get a Toyota ad Are you crazy? Yeah? That's 2:08:16.960 --> 2:08:19.920 what we can dream big. Yeah, I mean that is 2:08:19.960 --> 2:08:24.720 the dream to sell Toyota's. I mean we could become 2:08:24.920 --> 2:08:28.280 used car salesman in the valley. All right, here's that 2:08:29.760 --> 2:08:40.960 ah back, cut that head and fish handle it. Keep 2:08:41.000 --> 2:08:44.880 it all in baby. Yeah. So there's there's all this 2:08:44.920 --> 2:08:47.080 thing called the petting fish, which is like Chinese slack 2:08:47.120 --> 2:08:49.080 off culture, and you know, somt of people sharing tips 2:08:49.080 --> 2:08:50.600 ab how to slack off at work, and it's it's 2:08:50.640 --> 2:08:53.640 kind of the equivalent like I love that it's called 2:08:53.640 --> 2:08:56.800 petting fish. And then also yeah, it's it's kind of 2:08:56.800 --> 2:08:58.840 the Chinese equivalent of like boss makes a dollar, I 2:08:58.880 --> 2:09:02.440 make a dime. That's why should company time. So people 2:09:02.440 --> 2:09:03.920 do just a lot of like they have a lot 2:09:03.960 --> 2:09:06.120 of like genuinely fun things they do. Like people people 2:09:06.160 --> 2:09:09.600 started putting like fake beatings on their calendars. People wouldn't 2:09:09.600 --> 2:09:13.160 bother them. They like they just like like, that's that's 2:09:13.200 --> 2:09:15.800 also that's that's that's also what I do. Yeah, yeah, 2:09:15.840 --> 2:09:18.120 I mean the if you want to make I love 2:09:18.160 --> 2:09:19.960 the term petting fish as well, but if you want 2:09:19.960 --> 2:09:23.360 to like make it sound cool. They're waging an insurgency 2:09:23.440 --> 2:09:28.120 from within capitalism by by by trying to take resources 2:09:28.200 --> 2:09:32.560 away from their employers, um without being spotted. Yeah, there's 2:09:32.560 --> 2:09:34.400 a there's a thing in volume one of Capital about 2:09:34.440 --> 2:09:37.240 this that I was like, oh, I could pull this up, 2:09:37.320 --> 2:09:38.920 and then I was like, that is too much work. 2:09:38.960 --> 2:09:40.360 I'm not going to do it. So I don't have 2:09:40.400 --> 2:09:42.800 the thing in volume one where he talks about struggling 2:09:42.840 --> 2:09:45.360 between about labor time. But instead you get a bunch 2:09:45.360 --> 2:09:47.720 of people like the Smike smuggling whiskey into work, taking 2:09:47.720 --> 2:09:51.600 through our lunch breaks. My favorite one actually work drink 2:09:51.720 --> 2:09:58.600 at work, especially if your nurse, oh boy, you probably 2:09:58.640 --> 2:10:03.040 killed about fifty people. This is gonna be crossed fingers crossed. 2:10:03.680 --> 2:10:05.680 So you know how like companies all have these like 2:10:05.920 --> 2:10:10.160 these really annoying like mindfulness fitness things. So one of 2:10:10.200 --> 2:10:12.120 these people started doing was okay, so you know, thinking 2:10:12.240 --> 2:10:14.400 like you have to drink eight hour, eight times a day. 2:10:14.480 --> 2:10:17.120 So they would set these alarms that's like, oh, I 2:10:17.120 --> 2:10:18.640 have to go drink my water. And so like every 2:10:18.720 --> 2:10:21.000 like every like fifty minutes or something, they just go 2:10:21.120 --> 2:10:24.040 up and like spend twenty minutes getting water and they 2:10:24.040 --> 2:10:27.200 sit back down. It's like you've just eviscerated and enormous 2:10:27.200 --> 2:10:29.840 part of your work day. And and the product of this, 2:10:29.920 --> 2:10:32.320 you know, this CP is really piste off about this. 2:10:32.360 --> 2:10:34.280 And you know, you get these giant billboards to say 2:10:34.320 --> 2:10:37.240 no lying flat, no petting fish on them or something. 2:10:37.240 --> 2:10:40.080 It would have been literally incomprehensible like a year ago. 2:10:42.280 --> 2:10:46.000 It's amazing. And you know, and I think this is 2:10:46.040 --> 2:10:48.640 something you know in the U s anti work, like 2:10:48.760 --> 2:10:51.480 the actual political class kind of has been ignoring it. 2:10:51.520 --> 2:10:53.880 I mean, you see a couple of acial antists in China. 2:10:54.280 --> 2:10:57.000 She Jing Ping like made a speech. It was like, 2:10:57.440 --> 2:10:58.680 you know, you have a private speech to a bunch 2:10:58.680 --> 2:11:01.560 of hoigh people in the party, and so a part 2:11:01.560 --> 2:11:04.680 of it a printage like a month ago or something 2:11:04.680 --> 2:11:06.760 I've I've lost track of all time. But like like, 2:11:06.760 --> 2:11:09.000 like specifically in this speech that chess and Ping is 2:11:09.040 --> 2:11:12.200 making that is published in the official like theoretical journal, 2:11:12.560 --> 2:11:15.960 he's like explicitly saying like don't lie flat and saying 2:11:16.040 --> 2:11:20.640 quote happy life is earned through heart, hard work, and yeah, 2:11:20.680 --> 2:11:22.040 and he also has this this he has his ranch. 2:11:22.120 --> 2:11:27.240 But like denouncing welfare ism, which is great the communist 2:11:27.280 --> 2:11:33.600 vanguard there, Yeah, yeah, preaching the immortal science. Yeah, socialism 2:11:33.680 --> 2:11:37.800 with Chinese characteristics. Motherfucker's don't be a welfare queen. Follow 2:11:39.120 --> 2:11:42.040 It's great, you know, but it's interesting people. This is 2:11:42.080 --> 2:11:43.800 the one people are really freaked out about. Like I 2:11:43.800 --> 2:11:46.360 saw I saw like an American writer about this, who 2:11:46.400 --> 2:11:48.400 you know, They wrote like an article about this whole thing, 2:11:48.400 --> 2:11:50.640 and then they were like this is gonna this is 2:11:50.680 --> 2:11:54.040 gonna cause inflation. It's like, this is gonna be the 2:11:54.120 --> 2:11:58.720 driver of what people just use the word inflation to 2:11:58.800 --> 2:12:01.960 mean whatever scary thing they want. Yeah, well they're they're like, oh, 2:12:02.000 --> 2:12:03.680 this will this will increase wages and that will lead 2:12:03.720 --> 2:12:07.960 to inflation and we'll get the seventies again. And I'm like, God, 2:12:09.080 --> 2:12:11.480 maybe get a tallow disco again. Did you ever think 2:12:11.520 --> 2:12:14.920 of that guy that we that were are reserves of 2:12:14.920 --> 2:12:19.400 a tallow disco are critically low. Do you wonder what 2:12:19.440 --> 2:12:22.720 a tallow disco is? No idea, that's a shame. All right, 2:12:22.800 --> 2:12:24.800 let's continue what what what type of like is there 2:12:24.840 --> 2:12:26.600 is there like any like you said, this kind of 2:12:26.600 --> 2:12:29.040 stuff started to like move leftwards. Is there any like 2:12:29.040 --> 2:12:32.000 actual like leftist organizing in these types of places. So 2:12:32.000 --> 2:12:33.560 so this is the thing I was getting to, which 2:12:33.560 --> 2:12:35.040 is that, like, you know, people are starting to do 2:12:35.080 --> 2:12:37.480 reading groups. But the problem, the problem with leftist organizing 2:12:37.480 --> 2:12:40.320 in China is that, you know, so state policy in 2:12:40.320 --> 2:12:42.480 the past three years has been like if you poke 2:12:42.560 --> 2:12:45.160 your head above ground, you get arrested. So you know, 2:12:45.200 --> 2:12:48.480 I mean, for example, there was there was a strike 2:12:48.520 --> 2:12:50.960 at Jasick and you know, a bunch of student groups 2:12:50.960 --> 2:12:53.240 who've been organizing for a long time like try to 2:12:53.280 --> 2:12:55.320 do alldrety with it, and they all got arrested. The 2:12:55.320 --> 2:12:57.280 people who are people who let the strike got arrested. 2:12:57.320 --> 2:12:58.760 All that the students who are doing is ald already 2:12:58.800 --> 2:13:02.400 got arrested. People like people got arrested for like like 2:13:02.640 --> 2:13:05.680 dancing with like university students got arrested for like dancing 2:13:05.680 --> 2:13:13.200 with the people who were like cleaning the floors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:13:13.240 --> 2:13:18.440 like the yeah, like it's it's incredible and like, you know, 2:13:19.240 --> 2:13:20.800 and the other thing that you can see about this 2:13:20.800 --> 2:13:22.440 was so so for example, there was there was a 2:13:22.440 --> 2:13:25.760 guy doing like delivery driver organizing. It was kind of weird. 2:13:25.760 --> 2:13:27.760 He was like kind of an entrepreneur kind of doing 2:13:28.280 --> 2:13:31.720 delivery driver organizing. Like he got arrested. And then you know, 2:13:31.760 --> 2:13:33.400 like a couple of weeks later this people like, oh, 2:13:33.440 --> 2:13:36.240 we're gonna like do things to improve the conditions of 2:13:36.240 --> 2:13:39.240 of of delivery drivers, and you know, who knows if 2:13:39.280 --> 2:13:41.840 that's going to happen. But like, you know, basically like 2:13:41.920 --> 2:13:45.320 any anyone out for some reason that the people in 2:13:45.360 --> 2:13:47.320 the tech sector have been able to get away with 2:13:47.360 --> 2:13:51.600 more for reasons that are probably class based, and I 2:13:51.600 --> 2:13:53.720 think then take them seriously in the way they do 2:13:53.800 --> 2:13:57.720 with students to factory workers. But you know, and actually 2:13:57.720 --> 2:13:59.520 I mean the fact that the tech workers like kind 2:13:59.520 --> 2:14:01.600 of recently like that there's a tech worker thing calling 2:14:01.640 --> 2:14:04.680 for like like democratic control of production, which is wild. 2:14:05.440 --> 2:14:07.960 But other than those guys like you can't you know, 2:14:08.040 --> 2:14:10.720 you can't stick your head up, you get flattened. So 2:14:11.000 --> 2:14:13.080 this has sort of been the result of this, which 2:14:13.120 --> 2:14:15.960 is this, like you know, the sort of the like 2:14:16.040 --> 2:14:18.640 lying flat is this. You know, it's this mass decentralized 2:14:18.680 --> 2:14:21.480 movements that you know, there's there's no one to hit 2:14:21.520 --> 2:14:25.520 with a hammer, and you know, and and I think, like, okay, 2:14:25.520 --> 2:14:27.000 so one of one of the other quotes that's that's 2:14:27.040 --> 2:14:29.400 been going around about lying flat is it's it's a poem. 2:14:29.480 --> 2:14:34.200 It doesn't poem as well in English, but this, this 2:14:34.240 --> 2:14:36.720 is the best we've got. Lying flat is to not 2:14:36.800 --> 2:14:40.000 bow down. Lying flat is to not kneel. Lying flat 2:14:40.080 --> 2:14:43.520 is to stand up horizontally. Lying flat is a straight spine. 2:14:44.240 --> 2:14:46.720 And so you know what was basically happening here is 2:14:46.720 --> 2:14:50.000 is it's a combination of the tendencies you see in 2:14:50.040 --> 2:14:53.200 the US, where you know, a bunch of people terrible jobs, 2:14:53.520 --> 2:14:56.440 realizing that everything is pointless. And then also this is 2:14:56.480 --> 2:14:59.320 a way you can, like, this is the way you 2:14:59.360 --> 2:15:03.840 can like your boss without like the police showing up. Yeah, 2:15:04.320 --> 2:15:08.880 and so there's there's some interesting like political stuff. So there, 2:15:08.920 --> 2:15:10.680 there's there, there's there's there's if if you look at 2:15:10.680 --> 2:15:12.560 the doc, there's there's a bunch of memes here because 2:15:12.560 --> 2:15:15.400 they're great. So there's there's been a thing with these 2:15:15.400 --> 2:15:17.680 people talking about how people are leaks, which they're like 2:15:17.720 --> 2:15:20.560 their leaks, they're harvested over and over again and they're 2:15:20.560 --> 2:15:24.400 being exploited and like the plants, yeah, like like leaks 2:15:24.400 --> 2:15:26.200 like yeah, you eat. And so they have this thing. 2:15:26.240 --> 2:15:28.520 It's a leaks that life flat cannot be so easily 2:15:28.560 --> 2:15:30.680 harvested and it's just like a knife go like try 2:15:30.920 --> 2:15:32.640 like a machette, like trying to swing at a bunch 2:15:32.680 --> 2:15:35.520 of leaks, but leaks are flats, so they can't hit them. 2:15:35.560 --> 2:15:39.520 And see what I like, I like all of this. Yeah, yeah, 2:15:39.560 --> 2:15:42.480 it's it's it's it's you know, and so and so 2:15:42.600 --> 2:15:45.400 what the product of this is that yeah, like this this, this, 2:15:45.400 --> 2:15:48.120 this has this stuff has actually been effective enough that 2:15:48.240 --> 2:15:51.280 the CCP, like you know, I mean the CCP is 2:15:51.280 --> 2:15:53.240 is taking it seriously, but you know, there's not much 2:15:53.280 --> 2:15:56.960 they can do about it because like if someone's just like, oh, 2:15:57.280 --> 2:15:59.960 I'm going to go from a job that's really high 2:16:00.080 --> 2:16:02.200 stress to one that's less high stress, like what are 2:16:02.200 --> 2:16:03.920 you're gonna are you just gonna arrest them? Like what 2:16:03.920 --> 2:16:07.120 what are you gonna do? And so this yeah, this, 2:16:07.320 --> 2:16:11.760 this has been building for a while now, and I 2:16:11.800 --> 2:16:15.280 don't know who who knows exactly like where it's going 2:16:15.360 --> 2:16:20.040 to go, but it's it's it's already you know. It's 2:16:20.080 --> 2:16:22.520 something that people can do as an individual in a 2:16:22.600 --> 2:16:26.040 place where organized political action is impossible in a way 2:16:26.120 --> 2:16:28.360 such that you know that their individual actions have a 2:16:28.360 --> 2:16:31.880 collective effect, but one that can't be just you know, 2:16:32.160 --> 2:16:35.680 pounded down. Yeah, I mean, it is certainly interesting to 2:16:35.720 --> 2:16:39.880 see two completely separate, like anti work style movements around 2:16:40.000 --> 2:16:42.760 basically around the same same exact time, with the same 2:16:42.760 --> 2:16:46.600 exact points, if you're totally different languages. If you're someone 2:16:46.640 --> 2:16:51.520 who's interested in massive global revolutionary change, this should probably 2:16:51.720 --> 2:16:54.240 be a thing that you are looking at and studying 2:16:54.280 --> 2:16:58.199 and thinking a lot about. Because perhaps while we're arguing 2:16:58.240 --> 2:17:02.440 about ship that people started talking about in the eighteen seventies, this, 2:17:02.440 --> 2:17:06.360 this might be a better thing to do than than that, uh, 2:17:06.560 --> 2:17:10.400 because because it's it seems like there's some potential here. Yeah, 2:17:10.440 --> 2:17:12.320 And I think, yeah, I mean, you know, if if 2:17:12.360 --> 2:17:15.000 if you if you know, any any any any actual 2:17:15.200 --> 2:17:17.240 revolutionary project that makes the world better is going to 2:17:17.280 --> 2:17:20.800 have to be international. And that's been you know, that 2:17:20.800 --> 2:17:23.000 that that that that's been the bane of all revolutionary 2:17:23.040 --> 2:17:27.480 movements forever but you know, okay, so we have you 2:17:27.480 --> 2:17:30.040 know that we we have something to Chinese. The American 2:17:30.080 --> 2:17:33.360 working class agrees on, which is Diogenes is based in 2:17:33.440 --> 2:17:38.600 work sucks. Yeah, So as you go forward into your 2:17:38.640 --> 2:17:42.440 life this week, um, take a page from Diogenes as 2:17:42.480 --> 2:17:47.400 his book and got on the people ship on the 2:17:47.480 --> 2:17:51.000 floor of a free people or yeah, if free people 2:17:51.000 --> 2:17:53.280 are in h and M go walk into one and 2:17:53.360 --> 2:17:59.200 just just just go absolutely ruin that tile. I mean, 2:17:59.640 --> 2:18:03.360 fuck it. This is why my my my biggest political 2:18:03.400 --> 2:18:07.360 advice to friends who has always been learned to run fast, 2:18:07.760 --> 2:18:10.200 because if you learn to run fast, you can do 2:18:10.320 --> 2:18:14.200 so many more fun things in a store and then 2:18:14.280 --> 2:18:17.000 run fast that it's done right. The problem is that 2:18:17.000 --> 2:18:19.080 a lot of people like who who want to do 2:18:19.120 --> 2:18:22.200 this can't run fast enough. So learn to run fast 2:18:22.200 --> 2:18:25.240 to do this. There, It's like Mouse said, all political 2:18:25.280 --> 2:18:27.879 power comes from being able to ship really fast and 2:18:27.920 --> 2:18:31.400 the doors of a free people. Just get that out 2:18:31.400 --> 2:18:35.680 of there. The immortal science. Look, I think I think 2:18:35.720 --> 2:18:40.240 I think we should leave with with the real immortal science, 2:18:40.320 --> 2:18:45.520 the the immortal words of a skeleton from the share zone. 2:18:45.840 --> 2:18:50.000 Just walk out. You can leave work, social things, movie 2:18:50.720 --> 2:18:55.879 home class dentist, close shops to fancy weed store cops. 2:18:55.920 --> 2:18:59.480 If you're quick, friendships, if it sucks, hit the bricks, 2:19:00.120 --> 2:19:04.040 yeah yeah, as as some comedian who I can't remember 2:19:04.040 --> 2:19:08.040 now said, always have an exit plan like that, that 2:19:08.040 --> 2:19:11.199 that should be your thought for everything everything in the world. 2:19:11.959 --> 2:19:15.879 Hit the fucking bricks, Get out anyway, Get out of 2:19:15.879 --> 2:19:24.119 this podcast episode Now from Calvary Audio comes the new 2:19:24.200 --> 2:19:28.879 true crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. I always wanted to 2:19:28.920 --> 2:19:31.040 know what it felt like. He killed somebody and he 2:19:31.120 --> 2:19:35.000 started laughing. Prosecutors described him as a serial killer survant, 2:19:35.200 --> 2:19:38.640 kicking up these girls, getting him in a position of vulnerability. 2:19:38.800 --> 2:19:40.600 When he got a hold of their neck, that was it. 2:19:40.920 --> 2:19:44.200 I'm Caroline Asia, a journalist and lifelong resident at the 2:19:44.240 --> 2:19:47.280 Pacific Northwest. I grew up near the banks of the 2:19:47.320 --> 2:19:50.320 Green River and in the shadow of the killer that 2:19:50.400 --> 2:19:54.160 bears its name. Time did you bring the camera? Time? 2:19:54.360 --> 2:19:58.280 Just want He started fantasizing about having sex with his mother, 2:19:58.480 --> 2:20:02.240 and he fantasized about killing her. But this podcast isn't 2:20:02.280 --> 2:20:05.600 only about tracking down the killer. It's about the victims. 2:20:06.000 --> 2:20:08.360 We stayed in the woods. He always liked to go 2:20:08.440 --> 2:20:11.840 in the woods. It's just all of the kind of strange. 2:20:12.360 --> 2:20:14.840 You know how it feels about prostitutes. Listen to the 2:20:14.840 --> 2:20:17.920 Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple 2:20:17.959 --> 2:20:23.760 podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Give us the attention. 2:20:23.840 --> 2:20:26.800 We need everything you've got Fast Waiting on Reparations we 2:20:27.000 --> 2:20:30.960 beat the podcast Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay. 2:20:31.080 --> 2:20:32.959 We fight for the people because they got us in 2:20:33.040 --> 2:20:35.600 the worst way from the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay. 2:20:35.760 --> 2:20:38.600 To cut from the left enclave to what the neo 2:20:38.680 --> 2:20:42.440 kansee every Thursday the heading conversation, and to break us 2:20:42.440 --> 2:20:45.160 off with some break because we wait in the reparations. 2:20:46.000 --> 2:20:48.720 Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, 2:20:48.879 --> 2:20:58.800 Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to 2:20:58.800 --> 2:21:02.240 Dick It Happen Here, podcast about things falling apart from 2:21:02.240 --> 2:21:05.199 what you can do about it. My name is Christopher Wong, 2:21:05.360 --> 2:21:08.200 and today I'm gonna be talking about sabotage. But this 2:21:08.280 --> 2:21:11.760 is not the episode on sabotage that you expect. I 2:21:11.800 --> 2:21:15.560 will not be discussing, for example, the destruction of machinery, 2:21:15.959 --> 2:21:19.240 throwing monkey wrenches, slow down strikes, to the myriad of 2:21:19.280 --> 2:21:22.000 other tactics that workers have used since time immemorium to 2:21:22.040 --> 2:21:25.400 strike back at their bosses. No. Instead, I'm going to 2:21:25.440 --> 2:21:28.520 be talking about a four more common and infinitely more 2:21:28.640 --> 2:21:34.560 dangerous form of sabotage, corporate sabotage. Now, the most conficuous 2:21:34.560 --> 2:21:37.120 form of corporate sabotage is the mass destruction of a 2:21:37.160 --> 2:21:41.560 corporation's own products. The fashion company Burberry, for example, destroyed 2:21:41.600 --> 2:21:44.200 three hundred and seventy million dollars off its own product 2:21:44.200 --> 2:21:48.200 in one year alone. Louis Vutton and Chanel also systematically 2:21:48.240 --> 2:21:51.280 destroy their own sold stock every year, joining H and 2:21:51.400 --> 2:21:53.720 M and literally lighting their own sold products on fire 2:21:53.760 --> 2:21:58.920 in order to prevent anyone from using them. Quote business insider, Rieschamont, 2:21:59.040 --> 2:22:02.039 the owner of Cadley vont Blanc, destroyed more than four 2:22:02.480 --> 2:22:05.240 million pounds of watches over a two year period after 2:22:05.280 --> 2:22:08.400 an excess in goods in the Asian markets. Nicki has 2:22:08.440 --> 2:22:11.720 also admitted that a New York store slashed unsold trainers 2:22:11.720 --> 2:22:14.959 before throwing them away, and last year, an Urban Outfits 2:22:15.000 --> 2:22:17.680 employee said he was instructed to pour green paints on 2:22:17.720 --> 2:22:21.120 the unsold stock. These, of course, are only the stories 2:22:21.120 --> 2:22:24.160 that evaded into the press, and this behavior is by 2:22:24.160 --> 2:22:27.879 no means limited to high fashion grocery stores routinely throw 2:22:27.920 --> 2:22:32.040 away enormous quantities of unsold goods, and when communities realized 2:22:32.080 --> 2:22:34.480 they could feed people in need by taking the still 2:22:34.560 --> 2:22:37.879 good products from grocery store dumpstairs, the stories began to 2:22:37.959 --> 2:22:41.840 destroy their food intentionally. But these acts of destruction, as 2:22:41.840 --> 2:22:44.880 callous and horrifically greedy as they are, are by no 2:22:45.040 --> 2:22:49.800 means the extent of corporate sabotage. To explain I turned 2:22:49.800 --> 2:22:53.920 to the work of the economist Thorston Veblen. Feblin is 2:22:53.959 --> 2:22:57.119 perhaps best known today for the theory of conspicuous consumption, 2:22:58.000 --> 2:23:02.360 but he wrote extensively on corporate sabotage in the first 2:23:02.400 --> 2:23:04.840 part of The Engineers and the Price System, a work 2:23:04.920 --> 2:23:08.400 that isn't broadly ignored even by his followers. Feblen rode 2:23:08.400 --> 2:23:11.359 a section called on the Nature and Uses of Sabotage 2:23:12.440 --> 2:23:15.680 from that work. Writers and speakers who dilate on the 2:23:15.720 --> 2:23:20.039 militarious exploits of the nation's businessmen will not commonly allude 2:23:20.080 --> 2:23:24.720 to this voluminous, running administration of sabotage, this conscientious withdrawal 2:23:24.760 --> 2:23:28.480 of efficiency that goes into their ordinary day's work. We 2:23:28.520 --> 2:23:31.240 are not used to thinking of the ordinary work of 2:23:31.280 --> 2:23:35.760 a corporation being sabotage. But for Veblen there was no 2:23:35.840 --> 2:23:38.720 other explanation from what he was seeing. In the wake 2:23:38.800 --> 2:23:41.880 of World War One, there was an enormous explosion and unemployment, 2:23:42.360 --> 2:23:45.560 an enormous need on half of the population. But even 2:23:45.600 --> 2:23:48.200 as the unemployed begged to be let in to create 2:23:48.240 --> 2:23:50.840 the products that could build the needs of their fellow humans, 2:23:51.160 --> 2:23:55.800 business owners steadfastly refused to open their factories. As Veblen explained, 2:23:56.480 --> 2:23:59.360 but for reasons of business expediency, it is impossible to 2:23:59.440 --> 2:24:01.760 let these idle plants and idle workmen go to work, 2:24:02.320 --> 2:24:04.800 that is to say, for reasons of insufficient profit to 2:24:04.840 --> 2:24:08.320 the businessmen interested, or in other words, for reasons of 2:24:08.360 --> 2:24:11.480 insufficient income to the vested interests which controlled the staple 2:24:11.520 --> 2:24:15.800 industries and so regulate the output of product. Feblun was 2:24:15.840 --> 2:24:19.680 not alone in observing these are similar conditions. John Maynard Keynes, 2:24:20.120 --> 2:24:23.280 writing during the depression, observed newly precisely the same thing. 2:24:24.840 --> 2:24:27.320 For Canes, the solution simply was to have the government 2:24:27.360 --> 2:24:31.720 step into increased demand. But for Veblen dismissed the core 2:24:31.760 --> 2:24:33.640 of the problem. The real problem was at a core 2:24:33.720 --> 2:24:36.320 of absentee owners had the ability to shut down the 2:24:36.360 --> 2:24:39.080 factories in the first place by simple virtue of their ownership, 2:24:39.720 --> 2:24:43.360 Feblen argued, was simply sabotage, no different from the hated 2:24:43.400 --> 2:24:46.520 strikes of the I w W that's so racked and 2:24:46.560 --> 2:24:49.200 perturbed the capitalist ruling class of his time. At least 2:24:49.240 --> 2:24:52.760 the workers could argue that they were simply fighting for 2:24:52.800 --> 2:24:55.520 a better share of what they had created. Absentee owners, 2:24:55.560 --> 2:24:58.480 on the other hand, who had no actual involvement in 2:24:58.520 --> 2:25:02.480 the production process whatsoever, simply carried out sabotage on an 2:25:02.600 --> 2:25:06.520 enormous scale in order to secure their own returns, and 2:25:06.600 --> 2:25:08.920 this was true even in times they weren't marked by 2:25:08.959 --> 2:25:13.040 massive depressions. In order to make payments to capitalists, Febuin argued, 2:25:13.400 --> 2:25:15.800 who expect a certain rate of return on their investment, 2:25:16.120 --> 2:25:18.760 corporations must maintain prices at such a level that they 2:25:18.760 --> 2:25:21.160 can meet their returns, and the only way they can 2:25:21.200 --> 2:25:23.800 do this is sabotage. For the good of business, it 2:25:23.920 --> 2:25:26.520 is necessary to curtail production of the means of life 2:25:26.920 --> 2:25:30.080 on pain of unprofitable prices, at the same time that 2:25:30.440 --> 2:25:33.200 the increasing need of all sorts of necessities of life 2:25:33.280 --> 2:25:36.400 must be met. In some passable fashion on pain of 2:25:36.400 --> 2:25:40.480 popular disturbances, as it will always come of popular distrust 2:25:40.520 --> 2:25:44.119 when they passed a limit of tolerance. The sabotage, Feblan argue, 2:25:44.200 --> 2:25:47.040 was simply the product of the price system. Any production 2:25:47.040 --> 2:25:49.880 that was too efficient would simply and inevitably be sabotaged 2:25:49.920 --> 2:25:53.879 for private gain, because in order to maintain prices that 2:25:53.920 --> 2:25:57.000 would maintain the returns of investors, it was necessary when 2:25:57.000 --> 2:26:00.200 sure that production never became too efficient to produce too 2:26:00.200 --> 2:26:03.840 many goods. Feplin used as his example the twentieth century 2:26:03.840 --> 2:26:06.120 post Office, but we could just as easily point to 2:26:06.160 --> 2:26:09.640 Trump sabotaging the post office in a dual bid to 2:26:09.680 --> 2:26:12.640 privatize the service by causing it to collapse and prevent 2:26:12.720 --> 2:26:14.640 mail and votes from being counted, as part of his 2:26:14.680 --> 2:26:17.280 attempt to win the two thousand twenty election. In their 2:26:17.280 --> 2:26:22.200 book Capitalist Power, Condis Shimshawan Bickler, and Jonathan Needson take 2:26:22.280 --> 2:26:26.440 Feplin's argument and expand on it, noting that capitalism, far 2:26:26.520 --> 2:26:31.199 from encouraging productivity at large, makes things inefficient on purpose. 2:26:32.000 --> 2:26:35.520 They used the example of public transportation, which is by 2:26:35.560 --> 2:26:38.320 bay essentially any measure, a significantly more efficient way of 2:26:38.360 --> 2:26:42.680 moving people around the US. As an example, in the 2:26:42.760 --> 2:26:45.760 US and the nineteen forties, a hundred electric rail lines 2:26:45.800 --> 2:26:50.080 were brought up and destroyed by car companies. Those same companies, 2:26:50.440 --> 2:26:54.920 likewise twice destroyed incredibly efficient and popular electric cars, once 2:26:54.959 --> 2:26:57.400 in the nineteen thirties and again in the nineteen eighties 2:26:57.680 --> 2:27:00.280 because the profit rate was lower than that of gas ours. 2:27:01.200 --> 2:27:03.280 They then set out to cause everyone to forget that 2:27:03.320 --> 2:27:05.959 they had actually done this until Elon Musk figured out 2:27:05.959 --> 2:27:08.720 a way to sell electric cars that was profitable, namely 2:27:08.760 --> 2:27:11.840 by selling himself as a brad and not the cars themselves. Now, 2:27:11.879 --> 2:27:14.800 if capitalism was simply destroying its own products in order 2:27:14.840 --> 2:27:17.760 to create Elon Musks, you could argue that the system 2:27:17.800 --> 2:27:20.760 at least produced advancements before it stopped them. But the 2:27:20.800 --> 2:27:25.640 most violent forms of sabotage are reserved for productive systems 2:27:25.680 --> 2:27:29.440 that are simultaneously efficient and outside of capitalist control together. 2:27:30.600 --> 2:27:32.920 Perhaps the best known example of this is the East 2:27:32.920 --> 2:27:37.039 British East India companies. The industrialization of the Indian textile industry, 2:27:37.240 --> 2:27:41.279 not to be outmatched by the British forebearers, American settlers 2:27:41.680 --> 2:27:45.320 and their allies in the American military sterminated the Buffalo 2:27:45.440 --> 2:27:48.760 herds of the Great Plains in an attempt to starve 2:27:48.760 --> 2:27:52.160 out the indigenous tribes that lived there. In doing so, 2:27:52.280 --> 2:27:55.760 they destroyed an enormously productive and sustainable agricultural system. It 2:27:55.840 --> 2:27:59.959 did so precisely because the system was efficient, So efficient, 2:28:00.080 --> 2:28:04.920 in fact, that it allowed indigenous tribes to repeatedly defeat 2:28:04.920 --> 2:28:07.800 the American army and defence of their lands. We are 2:28:07.879 --> 2:28:10.600 used to thinking of capitalism as the system of production, 2:28:11.320 --> 2:28:15.280 but here, amidst the fields of buffalo corpses something else 2:28:15.440 --> 2:28:19.840 entirely capitalism appearing in its true form, a system of 2:28:19.959 --> 2:28:24.280 organized sabotage. To fully untangle what this means, let us 2:28:24.280 --> 2:28:29.519 return to Veeblin. Feblin divided capitalism into two separate processes. 2:28:30.000 --> 2:28:34.760 The first he called industry. Industry, Feblin argued, has existed 2:28:35.040 --> 2:28:37.920 long before capitalism and will continue to exist long after 2:28:38.000 --> 2:28:41.320 it has bit clear and nietzs and put it quote 2:28:41.800 --> 2:28:46.240 when considered an isolation from contemporary business institutions. The principal 2:28:46.240 --> 2:28:50.760 goal of industry it's raison, according to Veblen, is the 2:28:50.800 --> 2:28:53.800 efficient production of quality goods and services for the betterment 2:28:53.879 --> 2:28:59.080 of human life. Industry is an inherently collective undertaking basis 2:28:59.080 --> 2:29:03.400 is cooperation, integration, the creation of communal knowledge that allows 2:29:03.440 --> 2:29:07.519 production and scientific advance to occur, and coordination and cooperation 2:29:07.600 --> 2:29:10.840 between people to create things for each other. Left to 2:29:10.840 --> 2:29:13.879 its own devices, industry would simply produce goods for people. 2:29:14.000 --> 2:29:19.480 It has no concern for profitability, rates of returns, or capitalization. Unfortunately, 2:29:19.640 --> 2:29:22.840 capitalism is defined by private ownership. This is what Veblen 2:29:22.879 --> 2:29:26.480 calls business. Business is a system of power that extracts 2:29:26.640 --> 2:29:30.200 wealth from industry by means of sabotage production to serve 2:29:30.280 --> 2:29:34.320 human need. The basis of industry is useless to business 2:29:34.400 --> 2:29:36.760 unless it can be turned into a revenue stream. It 2:29:36.840 --> 2:29:39.800 does this by taking control of industry and as products 2:29:39.800 --> 2:29:42.720 and the restricting access to it particular and niches input it. 2:29:43.320 --> 2:29:46.800 The most important feature of private ownership is not that 2:29:46.840 --> 2:29:49.800 it enables those who own, but that it disables those 2:29:49.840 --> 2:29:53.760 who do not. Technically, anyone can get in someone else's 2:29:53.800 --> 2:29:56.240 car and drive away, but give in order to sell 2:29:56.280 --> 2:30:00.480 all of Warren Buffet shares in Berkshire hathaway. The purpose 2:30:00.560 --> 2:30:04.480 of private ownership is wholly and only an institution of exclusion. 2:30:05.200 --> 2:30:09.760 An institutional exclusion is a matter of organized power. As 2:30:09.800 --> 2:30:12.240 we can see from the genocide on the Plans. This 2:30:12.400 --> 2:30:15.360 power is no abstract force. Beblin tends to focus on 2:30:15.400 --> 2:30:18.640 the power of absentee owners to stop production, and for 2:30:18.720 --> 2:30:21.800 good reason, but business stands in the way of industry 2:30:22.280 --> 2:30:25.560 in more immediate ways too. After all, the purpose of 2:30:25.600 --> 2:30:28.800 cooperative industry is to make goods to improve our lives. 2:30:29.120 --> 2:30:32.160 And yet in between us and the proceeds that industry 2:30:32.240 --> 2:30:35.480 creates to slerve our needs, there is a cash register 2:30:35.560 --> 2:30:39.320 in a cop Even the creators of a Louis Vuitton bag, 2:30:39.760 --> 2:30:43.320 or for that matter, a tomato, have no claim on 2:30:43.360 --> 2:30:46.120 it once business takes over, and business would rather destroy 2:30:46.160 --> 2:30:48.680 it than see it fall into their hands. The famous 2:30:48.720 --> 2:30:52.840 Russian anarchist theorist Peter Kirpopkin was writing along similar lines 2:30:52.879 --> 2:30:55.920 to Feblyn just a few years before Feblen, it seems, 2:30:55.920 --> 2:30:58.680 have been exposed to anarchist ideas through its association with 2:30:58.760 --> 2:31:02.400 the industrial workers of the world. In early nineteen hundreds, 2:31:02.400 --> 2:31:05.240 it was not altogether unusual for economists to move in 2:31:05.360 --> 2:31:10.040 radical circles. The great Italian economist Piero's Raffles smuggled pens 2:31:10.080 --> 2:31:13.240 and papers to Antonio Gramsey, while Grumsey the head of 2:31:13.240 --> 2:31:16.760 the Italian Communist Party, was a prisoner with the Italian 2:31:16.800 --> 2:31:21.720 fascist regime. Grapha would later extract the writings that Crumpsy 2:31:21.800 --> 2:31:26.360 had written in prison, unleashing Grumsey's prison notebooks onto the world. 2:31:26.520 --> 2:31:28.960 But Feblin was unique even among these economists for the 2:31:29.000 --> 2:31:32.080 extent that he incorporated radical theories directly into his work. 2:31:33.320 --> 2:31:37.200 As you've seen, was his adoption of sabotage as a 2:31:37.240 --> 2:31:40.160 way of thinking about capitalism. This led Veblin to call 2:31:40.480 --> 2:31:42.640 the end of the system of what he described as 2:31:42.720 --> 2:31:48.360 vested interests and absentee owners. Febulin solution, however, which he 2:31:48.440 --> 2:31:52.000 described as a quote Soviet if technicians that would manage 2:31:52.040 --> 2:31:55.600 production for all society, leaves a lot to be desired for. 2:31:56.360 --> 2:31:59.400 So let us return to the source Perscrapotkin and the 2:31:59.400 --> 2:32:03.760 Conquest of Bread. The minds, so they represent the labor 2:32:03.800 --> 2:32:07.120 of several generations and derive their sole value from the 2:32:07.200 --> 2:32:10.840 requirements of the industry of a nation and the density 2:32:10.879 --> 2:32:15.040 of the population. The minds also belonged to the few, 2:32:15.680 --> 2:32:18.200 and these few restrict the output of coal are prevented 2:32:18.360 --> 2:32:21.920 entirely if they find more profitable investments for their capital. 2:32:22.520 --> 2:32:25.640 Machinery too, has become the exclusive property of the few. 2:32:26.280 --> 2:32:32.240 And even when a machine incontestedly represents an improvements added 2:32:32.280 --> 2:32:36.120 to the original rough invention by three or four generations 2:32:36.120 --> 2:32:40.080 of workers, it nonetheless belongs to a few honors. And 2:32:40.120 --> 2:32:43.480 if the descendants of the very inventor who constructed the 2:32:43.520 --> 2:32:47.000 first machine for lace building a century ago were to 2:32:47.080 --> 2:32:49.920 present themselves today at a lace factory and bail or 2:32:49.920 --> 2:32:54.520 Nottingham and demand their rights, they would be told hands off, 2:32:54.520 --> 2:32:56.760 this machine is not yours, and they would be shot 2:32:56.760 --> 2:33:00.240 down if they attempted to take possession of it. Here 2:33:00.280 --> 2:33:03.400 we see the competition between two different kinds of rights. 2:33:03.480 --> 2:33:05.959 On the one hand, the right of industry, the right 2:33:06.000 --> 2:33:10.080 of creativity, the right of those who produce and care 2:33:10.160 --> 2:33:13.720 for each other to be able to determine where are 2:33:13.760 --> 2:33:16.920 the proceeds of their labor go. From industry's point of view, 2:33:17.360 --> 2:33:20.760 this is to each other, to those in need, into 2:33:20.760 --> 2:33:23.760 society as a whole. On the other hand, there is 2:33:23.800 --> 2:33:26.080 the right of property, the right of men with guns 2:33:26.080 --> 2:33:28.840 to throw oysters into the ocean because it's not profitable 2:33:28.879 --> 2:33:32.039 for anyone to eat them. Capitalism has developed a myriad 2:33:32.080 --> 2:33:36.039 of iterations precisely the same principle, and the world is 2:33:36.040 --> 2:33:40.640 now infested by them. Patent trolls haunt They already fraught 2:33:40.640 --> 2:33:44.680 waters of intellectual property, buying up patents for cheap or 2:33:44.680 --> 2:33:48.280 on rare occasions, creating something themselves for the sole purpose, 2:33:49.200 --> 2:33:51.959 or preventing anyone else from using it, making money by 2:33:51.959 --> 2:33:54.960 suing anyone who dares try. Large corporations, of course, to 2:33:55.120 --> 2:33:58.920 precisely the same thing, see for example Disney's War and 2:33:58.959 --> 2:34:02.640 the concept of an anything, anything at all, falling into 2:34:02.640 --> 2:34:06.520 the public domain. The sabotage, and on this all four 2:34:06.560 --> 2:34:12.119 of our interlocutors, Veblin, Kropotkin clear needs a degree as 2:34:12.160 --> 2:34:15.880 long as private ownership exists, because sabotage is all private 2:34:15.879 --> 2:34:19.560 ownership really is. But it is not simply enough to 2:34:19.600 --> 2:34:23.680 answer corporate sabotage with their own sabotage. As Veblin pointed out, 2:34:24.000 --> 2:34:27.480 this is simply the ordinary state of affairs, enter capitalism. 2:34:27.560 --> 2:34:32.039 For Capotkin, the answer was simple. This rich endowments, painfully 2:34:32.080 --> 2:34:36.880 one builded, fashioned, or invented by our ancestors, must become 2:34:36.920 --> 2:34:39.560 common property, so that the collective interests of men may 2:34:39.600 --> 2:34:42.920 gain forbid the greatest good for all. There must be 2:34:42.959 --> 2:34:47.560 appropriation the well being of all the end expropriation. The 2:34:47.680 --> 2:34:50.920 means how precisely to go about doing such a thing 2:34:50.959 --> 2:34:52.920 as been the subject of endless debate for nearly two 2:34:53.040 --> 2:34:56.600 hundred years. And I am not arrogant enough to propose 2:34:56.640 --> 2:34:59.440 to solve the problem here, But a system where a 2:34:59.480 --> 2:35:02.720 company and prevent even the US government from attempting to 2:35:02.720 --> 2:35:06.360 produce ventilators by simply buying up the company that won 2:35:06.400 --> 2:35:09.760 the contract and refusing to fill the order to maintain 2:35:09.800 --> 2:35:12.720 the value of the ventilators it was already producing. Is 2:35:12.760 --> 2:35:15.560 a system based on nothing less than ensuring that people 2:35:15.560 --> 2:35:19.200 will die for or five percent rate of return. If 2:35:19.200 --> 2:35:22.320 we are to have any hope of stopping the ravages 2:35:22.480 --> 2:35:26.480 that climate change promises for our future, we cannot afford 2:35:26.520 --> 2:35:33.600 to be sabotaged at every step. Hey, we'll be back 2:35:33.640 --> 2:35:36.879 Monday with more episodes every week from now until the 2:35:36.879 --> 2:35:39.880 heat death of the universe. It could happen. Here is 2:35:39.920 --> 2:35:42.640 a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from 2:35:42.640 --> 2:35:45.600 cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com, 2:35:45.720 --> 2:35:47.440 or check us out on the I Heart radio app, 2:35:47.480 --> 2:35:50.840 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 2:35:50.840 --> 2:35:53.560 find sources for it could happen here, updated monthly at 2:35:53.560 --> 2:35:56.840 cool Zone media dot com slash sources. 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