Speaker 1: Executive producer Harris Hilton brings back the hit podcast How
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Speaker 1: United States Forest Service and the AD Council. Hey, everybody,
Speaker 1: Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know.
Speaker 1: This is a compiletion episode. So every episode of the
Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and
Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to
Speaker 1: in a long stretch if you want. If you've been
Speaker 1: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna
Speaker 1: be nothing new here for you, but you can make
Speaker 1: your own decisions. Hey, every buddy, America, Hey Americans, America,
Speaker 1: How is American? That is the podcast? And that was
Speaker 1: that was a horrible issue. That was maybe your talk
Speaker 1: ted worst. This is it could happen here a podcast
Speaker 1: where an incompat tent Rube Fox up starting the show
Speaker 1: and then we talk about how things are falling apart
Speaker 1: or how to make things not fall apart, or some
Speaker 1: version of things in between those two facts. Yep, yep.
Speaker 1: That's a kind of kind of not great time going
Speaker 1: on right now. A lot of people are That was
Speaker 1: our our second that was our b pitch for the name.
Speaker 1: Kind of a great time going on right now. Actually,
Speaker 1: not that far from what was say, Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: it's like, especially especially right now, there's there's a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of trials going on, m feet on stuff,
Speaker 1: and the d our Very trial is happening, the one
Speaker 1: about you know, un Unite the Right is going on,
Speaker 1: and of course the kindn't have his trial as of
Speaker 1: as of recording is um people, the jury is still
Speaker 1: in um so no idea. What's going to be the
Speaker 1: rest all. By the time that episode, I've actually been
Speaker 1: like not commenting on it or neither to think about it.
Speaker 1: There's nothing we can do about it. There's nothing you
Speaker 1: can do. And like a lot of people, there's been
Speaker 1: discussion about how much civil unrest there's going to be
Speaker 1: depending on the result of the trial. I know there's
Speaker 1: been a lot of like national guards sent to Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: It's been you know, FBI door Knox and activists tombs
Speaker 1: trying to scare people so they don't you know, go
Speaker 1: out and ride or whatever. Discussion online the people you
Speaker 1: know planning protests in response to in response to whatever
Speaker 1: the result is. Um. I know just today there was
Speaker 1: a post from I think the Ohio Proud Boys claiming
Speaker 1: that they be sending like like uh was it hundreds
Speaker 1: or thousands of like people armed with like a RS
Speaker 1: to Wisconsin, or yeah, there's there's a fucking post. People
Speaker 1: are saying, like, you should take it seriously because it's
Speaker 1: from a Proud Boys internal chat, and it's like, we've
Speaker 1: got three hundred guys heavily armed heading to and there's
Speaker 1: already X number of guys there, and we're gonna kill
Speaker 1: a lot more Communists than Kyle written House did. And YadA, YadA, YadA,
Speaker 1: and ya. If I could give you one piece of
Speaker 1: advice now, and who knows where the world is at
Speaker 1: the point of which this episode drops, it's when people
Speaker 1: talk about say when if you are at a protest
Speaker 1: and someone starts talking about the Proud Boys and the
Speaker 1: Proud Boys are coming or the Proud Boys are here,
Speaker 1: if you don't immediately see uncontrovertible visual proof that they
Speaker 1: have access to showing it, assume it's nonsense. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is my advice as someone who has heard a
Speaker 1: thousand times people say versions of the Proud Boys are coming. Okay,
Speaker 1: insist on evidence or ignore it. But you know, whenever
Speaker 1: whenever these big civil you know, unrests and types of
Speaker 1: stuff happens, there's always an increased chance that there'll be
Speaker 1: some kind of protest related shooting. Especially people are definitely
Speaker 1: absolutely may happened by the time this episode drops. Especially
Speaker 1: people are bringing guns, people people bring a fire arms
Speaker 1: under There's been a lot of the you know, for
Speaker 1: like the demonstrations outside the courthouse, there's been you know,
Speaker 1: guns there. Um there's been you know, an increasing uh
Speaker 1: in the rate of shootings at protests on the West
Speaker 1: Coast throughout the past few months. Um, So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be kind of talking about, you know, some things that
Speaker 1: you can do if you're at home and you feel
Speaker 1: competent enough in the aftermath of one of one of
Speaker 1: these shootings. You know, if if if you know, if
Speaker 1: a proud boy does bring a bring a gun and
Speaker 1: shoot somebody at what you can actually do a video
Speaker 1: If you're in a situation where you've been following something
Speaker 1: happening all day, there's a shooting and like low quality
Speaker 1: footage starts coming out of somebody killing someone or someone's else,
Speaker 1: here's what to do next if you want to maybe
Speaker 1: be a positive part of of that, of that process,
Speaker 1: well not of that process, but of like the aftermath
Speaker 1: of it. You know, and and because because the universe
Speaker 1: is cruel. I I originally wrote this road right up
Speaker 1: about the written House shooting, UM because the universe is
Speaker 1: a cruel place, and it's gonna, you know, continue to
Speaker 1: This particular incident is going to continue to be impactful.
Speaker 1: Even though it's not the first, it's not gonna be
Speaker 1: the last one of these. It is still impactful because
Speaker 1: of how much of a symbol has been turned into
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people forget about how
Speaker 1: how chaotic the night on the internet was the day
Speaker 1: of the Kenosha shooting. UM like it was. It was
Speaker 1: wild being online as that was going on. Uh No,
Speaker 1: one had no idea what was going on. People could
Speaker 1: not agree on who the shooter was beforehand. There was
Speaker 1: a lot of pictures floating around. It was it was,
Speaker 1: it was. It was a nightmare. Uh we know, we
Speaker 1: knew that people were shot, we couldn't know how many
Speaker 1: or who. Like it was, it was pretty bad and chaotic,
Speaker 1: And it is always that way in the wake of
Speaker 1: a shooting. UM, and it is the in any given shooting.
Speaker 1: Always keep in mind when you're when you're online or
Speaker 1: in person and there has been a shooting and people
Speaker 1: are saying things about said shooting other than we should
Speaker 1: take cover from the shooting. If they're saying anything else
Speaker 1: about it, um, you have to assume they're probably not
Speaker 1: either wrong or not entirely accurate. Um, because it's hard
Speaker 1: to be. It happens constantly. I mean, that's not it's
Speaker 1: something against any of them. I can remember a moment
Speaker 1: when you and I were out last year Garrison and
Speaker 1: there was a shooting I don't know, like forty ft away. Um.
Speaker 1: Nobody hurt, thankfully, but like the the immediate report from
Speaker 1: it was some guy had gotten pulled an a R
Speaker 1: fifteen out of his car and uh, and I I
Speaker 1: think the thing I said to you was, I'll bet
Speaker 1: you right now it's a nine millimeter handgun. And sure enough,
Speaker 1: within minutes there was a photo. Yeah. It's and it's
Speaker 1: not that those people were like dumb or bad. It's that,
Speaker 1: like shootings are scary, guns getting pulled is scary, and
Speaker 1: people funk up um in in their recollections. Um. It's
Speaker 1: the same way in which, like if a bear comes
Speaker 1: after you, uh, you may exaggerate the size of that
Speaker 1: bear in your head because you're scared as ship, because
Speaker 1: it's a bear. Yeah. So, so I was home on
Speaker 1: augustum just and I I was I was actually about
Speaker 1: to go out to to uh cover a purchase in Portland,
Speaker 1: but then I saw this happened on my phone on Twitter.
Speaker 1: I was like, I cannot go out. I will be
Speaker 1: more useful at home. Um. So, with with so much
Speaker 1: uncertainty online or the details of the actual shooting it was,
Speaker 1: it was clear that trying to provide concrete information would
Speaker 1: be crucial in the hours to come. So I spowed
Speaker 1: it up my computer and started to try to begin
Speaker 1: to search for you know, information and and verifiable stuff. UM.
Speaker 1: So I spent I spent all night looking looking for
Speaker 1: details about the shooter you know, um, uncovering his supposed
Speaker 1: identity um. Ultimately about an hour before the police announced
Speaker 1: their investigation even started um and and twelve hours before
Speaker 1: the police announced the shooters arrest um. And also to
Speaker 1: my surprise at the time, I discovered that the shooter
Speaker 1: was the same age as me. Um. Yeah, that was
Speaker 1: that That was That was a night so um because
Speaker 1: because I mainly used to titter and most of the
Speaker 1: video of the instant was on Twitter, I started, uh
Speaker 1: my my investigation by looking at Twitter. Uh my first
Speaker 1: goal was to find as as many videos of of
Speaker 1: the shooting that I could and collect pictures of all
Speaker 1: of the alleged suspects, all all the people who were claiming, Hey, this,
Speaker 1: this is this is the shooter. I think I think
Speaker 1: I got a picture of the shooter who was Here's
Speaker 1: what he is? Um. So, I I kept my eye
Speaker 1: on trending terms. Uh So, I searched under the hashtags
Speaker 1: like Kenosha, Kenosha shootings, Kanosha shooting, Kenosha protests, boogaloo was
Speaker 1: trending a lot, A lot of people thought the shooter
Speaker 1: was a boogaloo boy. Um was not um and also
Speaker 1: hashtag militia. So the search has brought up a lot,
Speaker 1: a lot of photos of of multiple young men, most
Speaker 1: of whom were carrying long guns, and a lot of
Speaker 1: unconfirmed reports that the shooter was a boogaloo boy was
Speaker 1: trending on Twitter. This was the main the main thing
Speaker 1: that night was boogloo boy shot. All the stuff that
Speaker 1: that was the main, the main trending topic. A lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of conflicting details, and I did not
Speaker 1: want to kind of add the misinformation, so I decided
Speaker 1: to not make any posts but whatsoever about the identity
Speaker 1: of the shooter until I was one percent confident um
Speaker 1: that I had the correct idea, which takes a while.
Speaker 1: It's it's not you know, Twitter wants you to post
Speaker 1: stuff quickly as soon as you find it out, and
Speaker 1: it's way better to hold off your information and wait
Speaker 1: until you are absolutely sure it's the right time to
Speaker 1: post it. And because it's the correct, correct stuff. Because
Speaker 1: mismismisidentifying a suspect, you can have a serious, serious consequences
Speaker 1: for any individual um involved. It's when when the worst
Speaker 1: things you can do is is miss misidentifying any any suspect.
Speaker 1: So I was looking through all the videos that I
Speaker 1: collected for kind of unique um or identifying clothing that
Speaker 1: that the shooter may have been wearing. The first video
Speaker 1: I found useful was from a right wing videographer named
Speaker 1: Drew hernandez Um who a few months later called from
Speaker 1: Bloodshed at the Capitol. He also testified at the Written
Speaker 1: House trial. This video did not actually show any any
Speaker 1: actual shooting. It had a wounded person on the ground
Speaker 1: being treated by a medic and a man standing over
Speaker 1: the scene with with with a gun. Um And wearing
Speaker 1: a green shirt, a tan baseball cap, jeans, and like
Speaker 1: purple latex gloves. He had, he had a he had
Speaker 1: he had a black and orange bag. Um. The person
Speaker 1: on the green shirt then runs towards the camera while
Speaker 1: talking on the phone, and he says into the phone, UM,
Speaker 1: I just shot somebody or I just killed somebody. It's
Speaker 1: hard to tell where he's actually saying if it's it's
Speaker 1: one of those things where if you think about it,
Speaker 1: you can hear both ones. But but he he says
Speaker 1: something like I just killed somebody on the phone, and
Speaker 1: he runs past the camera. So this this, this, this
Speaker 1: was the first kind of really important piece of information
Speaker 1: personal that was brought up in the trial too. And
Speaker 1: he he was like, I don't remember what I said.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, okay, Yeah. And to be honest, like, even
Speaker 1: if if this was I don't think any of us
Speaker 1: believed this was legitimate self defense. But like, even if
Speaker 1: it was, either of those things would be perfectly acceptable
Speaker 1: things to say. It's a surprising momentum, and you probably
Speaker 1: wouldn't remember what you said. I don't necessarily think he's
Speaker 1: lying about that. It turns out he he was. He
Speaker 1: was on the phone with the person who bought him
Speaker 1: the gun of a friend of his. UM. So, but
Speaker 1: but that this was my first important piece of information,
Speaker 1: you know, the the night of Right, this is before
Speaker 1: anyone's analyzed any of this stuff. So this is the
Speaker 1: first video that I can find it. Like, Okay, here's
Speaker 1: a person admitting on camera that they shot somebody. Um,
Speaker 1: and we're wearing a few potential identifiers, namely the green shirt,
Speaker 1: baseball cap, and bag. Um. So now I can search
Speaker 1: for all of those items together and the rest of
Speaker 1: the footage collected throughout the night. Looking over the top
Speaker 1: viral videos of the night showing multiple people getting shot. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is from this is from later on. After the
Speaker 1: first person gets killed, we can see someone in a
Speaker 1: baseball cap, black and oaunch bag and what could be
Speaker 1: a green shirt running through a street. Um. Somebody runs
Speaker 1: over to the individual with the gun and kind of
Speaker 1: punches them in the head, not knocking his hat off.
Speaker 1: So now the person running with the gun does not
Speaker 1: have a hat. Individual with the gun, he keeps running,
Speaker 1: but trips and falls on the ground before people try
Speaker 1: to disarm him. Uh. Four more shots are fired from
Speaker 1: the suspect, and uh. One more person dies as a
Speaker 1: result of this, other person gets their arm nearly blown off. Uh.
Speaker 1: There is one continuous video of all of this happening.
Speaker 1: Extremely useful having having one video of this whole shot. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: So the shooter, who appears to be the same person
Speaker 1: is the other video because of the green shirt and
Speaker 1: the hat at the beginning, continues to get onto his
Speaker 1: feet and runs off again. Uh. And the orange orangine orangine,
Speaker 1: a black bag swings in front of him as he's running,
Speaker 1: and a purple glove is also visible. Multiple vehicles drive past,
Speaker 1: like police vehicles. Um. The shooter then walks up pretty
Speaker 1: close to the police vehicle and he just he just
Speaker 1: he just with with with the rife and nothing, nothing happens.
Speaker 1: He he like he wait, he waves to the cops
Speaker 1: and they just keep driving and he walks away. So
Speaker 1: after finding watching these videos I had, I had no
Speaker 1: reason to believe the shooter was in custody. Um, and
Speaker 1: I had a good idea of his clothing and attire.
Speaker 1: So it's time to you know, compare this information that
Speaker 1: I gathered, uh two pictures of the supposed you know,
Speaker 1: suspects circulating on Twitter. Um. But but first I think, uh,
Speaker 1: now it's it's the time to listen to people selling
Speaker 1: new stuff. You know who doesn't oh boy trampled to
Speaker 1: another state to show up armed in a community to
Speaker 1: threaten people. They don't do it. I'm saying they don't.
Speaker 1: That's good, okay, all right? The products and services who
Speaker 1: support Hello Fresh black Liffe p Actually, a number of
Speaker 1: our sponsors will show up unwanted in your community armed.
Speaker 1: I forgot the Washington State Highway and the I have
Speaker 1: both dropped dads now well also, you know a highway
Speaker 1: patrol to forget about those motherfuckers like Kyle Rittenhouse. A
Speaker 1: number of our sponsors may show up in your home
Speaker 1: neighborhood with another one also, Black Life Coffee, Kyle's favorite
Speaker 1: brand of coffee. Remember, well it was until they disavowed him.
Speaker 1: An here's here's the ads. Here's the ones that pay.
Speaker 1: We're bad. So there was there was a lot of
Speaker 1: pictures of suspects on Twitter, some of them who look
Speaker 1: nothing like the person we now know who shot those people.
Speaker 1: Um funny how that happens. It's uh, well, it's not funny.
Speaker 1: It's it's pretty pretty pretty pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's not great just to share stuff like like that
Speaker 1: when these things happened. Um, which is why I said
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna share anything until no. UM, I know
Speaker 1: that it's it's it's actually worth posting about. So in uh,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go through go through some some some of
Speaker 1: the pictures and stuff of of I'm going through at
Speaker 1: least one of the pictures of one of the people
Speaker 1: people claimed to be the shooter. So in one picture circulating,
Speaker 1: you see someone in a green shirt, a baseball cap,
Speaker 1: and big, big, big black rifle. But this man's also
Speaker 1: wearing shorts of a black hat, not a tan. One
Speaker 1: has no bag, appears to be wearing like a tactile
Speaker 1: vest that is also green. So not the guy, even
Speaker 1: though he's wearing a green shirt and hat, not the
Speaker 1: same dude. Was be pretty easy to check not you
Speaker 1: don't really don't need to share that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Pretty sure, Pretty sure a lot of people own green shirts, yea.
Speaker 1: So two other photos that were circulating, they were claiming
Speaker 1: to be the guy. We had a green shirt, a
Speaker 1: tan baseball cap put on backwards jeans. Um. One of
Speaker 1: the one of the pictures has a bag in front
Speaker 1: of which is an orange and black one. Where one
Speaker 1: of them doesn't. One picture has purple gloves of the
Speaker 1: picture doesn't. But these dudes look pretty similar despite the
Speaker 1: same differences. I'm pretty sure this is this is this,
Speaker 1: This is the same guy. But you know, I'm a
Speaker 1: decision at the night, so this is probably the same dude.
Speaker 1: Um And he does appear to match the shooter a
Speaker 1: lot better. And there was a few few clear fixed
Speaker 1: pictures of his face um here, But honestly, the face
Speaker 1: of if if you look at all the pictures of
Speaker 1: the Connection shooting that night, the pictures of the suspect
Speaker 1: are really unclear because the way that the light hit
Speaker 1: his face, he looks like an incredibly generic white boy.
Speaker 1: Um like, extremely generic. It is hard to tell any
Speaker 1: any I identifying features from his face because they look
Speaker 1: like he looks like every every white every white boy.
Speaker 1: It's really hard to say everyone you went to high
Speaker 1: school with, who I don't know sniffed a girl's chair
Speaker 1: when he likes that's that's Kyle Rittenhouse. Such a visual
Speaker 1: Now that I decided that I have, like, I have
Speaker 1: a decent collection of pictures of who I believe the
Speaker 1: actual actual suspect is time time time to figure out
Speaker 1: who the suspects like name actually is and this is
Speaker 1: This is one of the one of the harder things,
Speaker 1: but often you can have a lot of help in
Speaker 1: ways that you might not expect. Um Often, once you
Speaker 1: can get a good picture of someone you know, be like, yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: this this is actually the dude. Once it gets shared enough,
Speaker 1: often somebody knows who this is already. You know, the
Speaker 1: internet is a pretty big place. I believe the first
Speaker 1: I believe the first person to actually like like I
Speaker 1: was I was the person to like prove online who
Speaker 1: who d written that kuy Right knows was the shooter.
Speaker 1: The first person to actually tie Kyle's name to the
Speaker 1: shooter UM was a neighbor of his on Facebook. UM.
Speaker 1: They they saw pictures of the shooter on on Facebook
Speaker 1: and said, hey, I think this I think I recognized
Speaker 1: this guy. I think I think this is my neighbor. UM.
Speaker 1: So often, once you start, once you have like enough
Speaker 1: pictures and those can spread, people will feel to find names.
Speaker 1: It isn't as hard as you would think that. The
Speaker 1: hard part is is finding out what personal connections are
Speaker 1: making those links and finding out where where where those are.
Speaker 1: But stuff, stuff spreads in a weird way and right
Speaker 1: for this. You know, I find I was able to
Speaker 1: prove that it was Kyle pretty quickly. Um, for a
Speaker 1: few reasons. So after I was doing my my my
Speaker 1: clothing comparisons to figure out this is to prove, like
Speaker 1: he said, this is the actual person who who did
Speaker 1: these things. Um. The other thing I I found that
Speaker 1: was not it was not viral at all, um, but
Speaker 1: just because I was digging through so much stuff, was
Speaker 1: this meme shared by uh I by some like small
Speaker 1: boogaloo account. Um. It was a picture of the shooter.
Speaker 1: Uh compare right beside a collection of Blue Lives Matter
Speaker 1: pictures of someone who looks kind of similar, linking to
Speaker 1: a Facebook page or not not linking it was it
Speaker 1: was it was screenshot from the Facebook page. And I
Speaker 1: can tell because of the font. And it was, like
Speaker 1: I said, like a written house is photos. So this
Speaker 1: was the first This is the first thing I saw
Speaker 1: on the like buried deep inside like Twitter's, Twitter's, Twitter's images.
Speaker 1: But by using all of like these a hashtag terms
Speaker 1: was this meme and and and then the meme said
Speaker 1: so y'all think he's still a boogaloo. No, No, he
Speaker 1: wasn't but because because of all of the pro police stuff,
Speaker 1: because boogleos generally are not not that fond fond of police.
Speaker 1: Yeah so so yeah, um, given given. So you know,
Speaker 1: if someone was to look at this, you know, look
Speaker 1: at this meme itself, he's like, okay, you know, the
Speaker 1: job was done. You know information, this dude looks vaguely
Speaker 1: similar ish to the guy on this written house Facebook. Um,
Speaker 1: the gun looks kind of similar because one of the
Speaker 1: pictures of the Facebook was it was a guy holding
Speaker 1: was a guy holding in a r um. But you know,
Speaker 1: just something looking similar or even holding a similar gun
Speaker 1: in one picture from a Facebook account. That's not enough
Speaker 1: to be sure about publishing a positive I d that
Speaker 1: there's there's there's no actual really, there's no like definitive
Speaker 1: proof there because honestly, if I was to look at
Speaker 1: these two guys faces, they don't look incredibly similar because
Speaker 1: faces can distort it with lighting and compression that it's it's,
Speaker 1: it's it's. It can be really difficult. And this is
Speaker 1: where you know, trying to idea shooter is hard and
Speaker 1: requires complex judgment. Calls and posting in accurate information or
Speaker 1: like incomplete information, um can have you know, extremely harmful effects,
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot a lot of examples of
Speaker 1: this happening in the past. You know, probably the biggest example,
Speaker 1: or the most notorious one of false identification is the
Speaker 1: Boston bombing incident. Um. So, you know, right after the
Speaker 1: right after thirteen bombing, you know, thousands of users on
Speaker 1: sites like Reddit and four chan became combing through footage
Speaker 1: to try to identify potential suspects screen caps of the
Speaker 1: people they deemed suspicious when viral online on on various
Speaker 1: social media sites. Unfortunately, the slew thing work done on
Speaker 1: four Chan and Reddit was incredibly shoddy um and seemingly
Speaker 1: had way more to do with like racial paranoia than
Speaker 1: actual detective work and evidence gathering. The New York Post
Speaker 1: subsequently published a picture on front page that that originated
Speaker 1: on Reddit, that users had declared that that was showing
Speaker 1: the two suspects with without doing any further verification. So
Speaker 1: it's it's it's real bad how stuff can spread from
Speaker 1: Reddit like this that's completely unverified to you know, a newspaper,
Speaker 1: even as one as unreputable as the Post, that's still
Speaker 1: a very popular paper. The Post also claimed that the
Speaker 1: law enforcement we're looking for those two to uh two
Speaker 1: individuals in that picture. UM. One of the one of
Speaker 1: the people identified by the post was harassed online. UM
Speaker 1: police police later told him just to delete his social
Speaker 1: media accounts entirely because there was no use at that point. UM.
Speaker 1: When the FBI did officially release photos of the unnamed suspects,
Speaker 1: Reddit users again false he identified these people on. One
Speaker 1: of the people they false he identified went went missing
Speaker 1: for weeks prior UM his his family received media inquiries
Speaker 1: about the false and verified rumors of their son's involvement. UM,
Speaker 1: and rumors of of of involvement were spread by reporters
Speaker 1: from Politico News, Squeak Newsweek, NBC News, and BuzzFeed. UM.
Speaker 1: Eight days after the bombing, this guy was actually the bombing.
Speaker 1: This guy was actually found dead and his family said
Speaker 1: it was a suicide. UM, it was not not one
Speaker 1: of the shooters, not one of the bombers. UM. Again,
Speaker 1: why even more than the tactics you could use to
Speaker 1: try and you know, verify things online, the most useful
Speaker 1: thing you can take out of this is if there
Speaker 1: is a mass shooting or other active violence and people
Speaker 1: on social media are saying it is this person, don't
Speaker 1: share it. Don't just don't share it, just wait, especially
Speaker 1: in sharing it if they have don't have anything to
Speaker 1: verify this at all. So yeah, like I'm not gonna,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna don't again, that is the overwhelming thing.
Speaker 1: We were not gonna you know. That's why you know
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna share this Kyle Rittenhouse, um boogleoo me
Speaker 1: because there's no proof for it. It's it's it's not
Speaker 1: there now. Eventually, after digging, I would realize that this
Speaker 1: meme cause comes from his neighbor saying that she thinks
Speaker 1: the suspect is him. So that's that's what this meme
Speaker 1: was created. Um. But still like there there there was
Speaker 1: no no proof for it, so I don't I didn't
Speaker 1: share it. So all the Boston bombing stuff was like
Speaker 1: going through my mind as I know found this and
Speaker 1: was trying to dig for dig for my details. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew that I could not post a name on
Speaker 1: any social media um or any info until I until
Speaker 1: I could prove it like without a shadow, but doubt
Speaker 1: that this is the same person because a lot a
Speaker 1: lot of times it is possible. It just requires work
Speaker 1: in time, you know, And a big part of doing
Speaker 1: this on Twitter is like, you want to get it
Speaker 1: out fast, so you're the first person to do it,
Speaker 1: so that you know you can go vital on your
Speaker 1: thread of identifying this killer, And like, no, that's not
Speaker 1: the reason to do image verification. It's not to go
Speaker 1: viral on a thread. It's because whenever that's your goal
Speaker 1: you're gonna do, you're gonna do shitty fast work that
Speaker 1: is gonna end up causing some kind of horrible consequence,
Speaker 1: like in the case the Boston bombing. And to be
Speaker 1: even extra clear, the primary use for this that kind
Speaker 1: of what you're teaching people image verification, which is something
Speaker 1: that like like Belling Cat, which has been like kind
Speaker 1: of a part time employer of mine. Um is an
Speaker 1: open source journalism collective that's broken some of the biggest
Speaker 1: stories in the last couple of years. And in the classes,
Speaker 1: we teach a class on image verification. And the point
Speaker 1: is just whenever someone is sharing a piece of what
Speaker 1: is like supposedly breaking news based on video or images
Speaker 1: that have been taken at the side of a whatever,
Speaker 1: image verification tactics can help you to know whether or
Speaker 1: not it's whether or not either it's true or false.
Speaker 1: But also just whether or not the image the information
Speaker 1: they're presenting gives you any reason to believe it, Like
Speaker 1: it's how you might be full of shit, Like that's
Speaker 1: super important. Yeah, like that, there's there's a thing that
Speaker 1: happens like and any time there's something that looks like
Speaker 1: a war starting. There is like this video of a
Speaker 1: bombing from two thousand fourteen and Gaza that goes around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like every time. Yeah. Um, there's there's actually five
Speaker 1: or six different kinds of things that are like that Chris,
Speaker 1: that are like, oh this is there's actually footage from
Speaker 1: like a Russian video game that people keep keeps getting
Speaker 1: like mistaken for action combat footage, and it's like, no,
Speaker 1: it's fucking from a video game. This has been on,
Speaker 1: this has been three wars. Now. There's this famous footage
Speaker 1: of like a fucking um an air soft battle at
Speaker 1: night with glowing with soft pellets, with the glowing pellets
Speaker 1: and it it kind of it kind of looks because
Speaker 1: it's black and white and not a great camera, it
Speaker 1: kind of looks like tracer fire. And it's there's like
Speaker 1: three Wars that people have said like look, this is
Speaker 1: still combat footage from it happens all the time. And
Speaker 1: again great account to follow is a hoax. I On Twitter,
Speaker 1: they do really good work pointing out just like kind
Speaker 1: of more like more like less high stakes kind of
Speaker 1: image image verification stuff. Um So, but before I get
Speaker 1: into the actual like verification work of like proving, Hey,
Speaker 1: I can actually prove that that by by not just
Speaker 1: someone's face, I can prove that this shooter is the
Speaker 1: same guy from from from the Facebook page. Um, I'll
Speaker 1: explain that next first short short ad break, and then
Speaker 1: we will finish up with this actual proving section. Yeah
Speaker 1: you know who is not Kyle? Wow? Do you have
Speaker 1: really dropped the ball out all of the transitions today. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I am not proud of myself or my place in
Speaker 1: society at the moment. Um, here's the ads. We're back.
Speaker 1: I feel terrible Garrison. And So, even even though the
Speaker 1: boogloo meme was not hard evidence, uh it did, it
Speaker 1: did provide a lead. So after seeing the meme, I
Speaker 1: did the first most obvious thing that I could see
Speaker 1: was compare the gun in the two frames. Uh they
Speaker 1: do look similar. Uh they're not. They're not identical. Uh,
Speaker 1: the optics are different for each rifle. Um. But the
Speaker 1: rest of it. But the stock, the grip um, and
Speaker 1: the barrel do do seem do seem to be? Do
Speaker 1: seem to be, if not, if not identical, at least
Speaker 1: extremely similar. Again, still not enough to make a positive
Speaker 1: idea on an individual basis, Like this person is its person,
Speaker 1: So that the next step is to scour the actual
Speaker 1: Facebook account itself that is alluded to in this meme
Speaker 1: and see what I can find there. The goal obviously
Speaker 1: being to find statements or pictures that will tie this
Speaker 1: person in the images of the shooter to the person
Speaker 1: on the account. So that's you know, clothing, location, intention,
Speaker 1: you know, all these types of things that could tie
Speaker 1: the pictures of the shooter the pictures of person on
Speaker 1: on on this account. Um So, Kyle houses old public
Speaker 1: Facebook profile was mainly made up of Blue Lives Matter
Speaker 1: and pro police images going back as far as twenty seventeen, UM,
Speaker 1: with a few uh then recent pictures of him holding
Speaker 1: his Air fifteen style rifle. Uh those the rifle pictures
Speaker 1: were like from June. The shooting happened in late August. Um.
Speaker 1: It appears I think it came out in the trial
Speaker 1: that he got his rifle around like May um so yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of a lot of pro
Speaker 1: police stuff, a lot of them blue lining, blue lives
Speaker 1: matters type things. Um. His public his his public page
Speaker 1: is is relatively sparse um and there was no public
Speaker 1: friends list to look through. Um. One one noteworthy piece
Speaker 1: of information was that he did he did list another
Speaker 1: name for himself as Kyle Lewis believe his mother's maiden name.
Speaker 1: Sure but uh but even so, even though I wasn't
Speaker 1: able to view a friends list and there wasn't many
Speaker 1: public posts, uh, this is his page is by no
Speaker 1: means a dead end. I could still see everyone that
Speaker 1: has commented on, shared, or liked his public posts. Because
Speaker 1: like so, he did not have he he did not
Speaker 1: many have any pictures himself himself on his page that
Speaker 1: that that I could use for verification. He didn't have
Speaker 1: like not nothing that I could tie to the shooting
Speaker 1: besides the actual guns. So not not tons of useful
Speaker 1: not tons of useful stuff. But there's perhaps there's still
Speaker 1: other other leads to look through, like everyone who's liked, shared,
Speaker 1: or uh commented on his posts. So I I opened
Speaker 1: up new tabs for every single person that interacted with
Speaker 1: Kyle's posts. While looking over their pages, I was searching
Speaker 1: to see if any of them had listed Kyle as
Speaker 1: a relative, with a focus on anyone with the last
Speaker 1: name of written House or Lewis um and and you know,
Speaker 1: ideally was looking forward to see if anyone had pictures
Speaker 1: of Kyle or someone who seems to be Kyle. Uh.
Speaker 1: One post from May eighteen eventually eventually proved useful. One
Speaker 1: comment read, Kyle, you sure do look look like a Louis.
Speaker 1: So there's the alternate last name. And two people had
Speaker 1: liked that comment Kyle himself and and uh and someone
Speaker 1: who is his mom? Would you or would would later
Speaker 1: find out is his mom? Um? Uh? So she said
Speaker 1: that lived She said that she lived in Uh. Is
Speaker 1: it anatok Illinois? Antioch? Probably Antioch, Illinois, which matches uh
Speaker 1: with Kyle's uh Illinois based pro police posts. He made
Speaker 1: a lot of like Chicago Blue Lives Matter posts, so
Speaker 1: I assumed that Kyle was from Illinois. And also, um,
Speaker 1: uh Antioch is that you said whatever? Antioch to to
Speaker 1: Wiscon's Antioch to Kenosha is only like three minute drive,
Speaker 1: so that is also like okay, that's that's that's that's
Speaker 1: pretty close. That is that is doable. Um, so it
Speaker 1: was the next I went. I went through a lot
Speaker 1: of the relatives pages, but I'm gonna focus just on
Speaker 1: the person who I found out who was, um, Kyle's mom,
Speaker 1: because they're the one that had the most useful information, right.
Speaker 1: A lot of other information I looked through just turn
Speaker 1: out to be useful, right, So I'm not not including
Speaker 1: all of that here. Um Uh. One post from from
Speaker 1: Wendy's mom uh featured a younger Kyle wearing a police outfit. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm sure people have seen this picture online before. I
Speaker 1: think I was probably I was. I was probably the
Speaker 1: first person to share this photo of Kyle in this
Speaker 1: in this younger Kyle wearing this this police this police costume,
Speaker 1: an unbelievably cringe e photo like side of the fact
Speaker 1: that he took two lives, like just yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: we all have photos we took when while an r
Speaker 1: OTC Like so yeah, ideally we would we would give
Speaker 1: there There's actually there's actually a lot more of these photos.
Speaker 1: There's photos of him touring so this is this stuff.
Speaker 1: I also found that night photos of him like touring
Speaker 1: a target with police as he's in a police uniform.
Speaker 1: He was part of like a police young Cadets program.
Speaker 1: He he was like twelve, um, so that that's where
Speaker 1: he got this outfit. And he like tagged around with
Speaker 1: police for like a day or something. And this photos
Speaker 1: of him like in a target with police. Even when
Speaker 1: I was like a shitty right winging kid, that sounded
Speaker 1: like a nightmare. So so yeah, so Kyle's the person
Speaker 1: who I figured out was Kyle's mom posted this this
Speaker 1: photo of of her and Kyle, which which Kyle liked,
Speaker 1: and then in another picture of another picture from from
Speaker 1: Kyle's mom, I found, uh, it's a family picture including
Speaker 1: Kyle wearing what I would say is like an army
Speaker 1: green shirt kind of similar, but it's a green shirt
Speaker 1: like I have. I have shirts that are pretty similar
Speaker 1: to that. I'm not gonna that's not gonna be anything
Speaker 1: so super definitive until we got there's one one picture
Speaker 1: that that proved to be much much more, much more
Speaker 1: useful of Kyle on or someone who assumed was Kyle,
Speaker 1: you don't you don't you don't actually see his face,
Speaker 1: but he is wearing a whole roably cringe e American
Speaker 1: flag crocs, which which which which was so, and and
Speaker 1: and on. On Kyle's page, there was also pictures of
Speaker 1: him wearing those same crocs. So like, even even though
Speaker 1: I can't see the person's face, the crocs the same,
Speaker 1: probably the same guy. He's also wearing a tan baseball cap. Um.
Speaker 1: And on this I can actually see that it has
Speaker 1: an American flag on the front of the cap, which
Speaker 1: I did not notice on anything else before. So that's,
Speaker 1: you know, that's something different. But again not that that's
Speaker 1: that's not that's not that's not like a red flag.
Speaker 1: That's just you know, a thing to a thing of note.
Speaker 1: Um because the baseball cap is tan um and it
Speaker 1: has like white mesh on the sides. Um. The one.
Speaker 1: The one thing I did, I did make one post
Speaker 1: before I actually did any kind of I claiming to
Speaker 1: do I identity stuff. I did ask my Twitter followers
Speaker 1: if there's any pictures of the back of the Shooters
Speaker 1: cap um, and I got them to to send me those,
Speaker 1: and then I got one picture of of the back
Speaker 1: that actually has uh I couldn't see, like, Okay, the
Speaker 1: back of the Shooters cap also has the flag on it,
Speaker 1: so I was able to actually show that. Okay, So
Speaker 1: the baseball cap on the back of it. Uh, but
Speaker 1: they're both tann baseball caps, they both have white mesh
Speaker 1: in the side, they both have to have an American flag.
Speaker 1: And then I got another picture that was even closer
Speaker 1: that showed a tear on the brim of the hat.
Speaker 1: And if you zoom in on one of the beach pictures,
Speaker 1: you could also see a tear on the same position
Speaker 1: on the hat. So this is this hat? Is the
Speaker 1: hat is the same hat? The hat was definitely it
Speaker 1: was definitely in both locations. So at this point, based
Speaker 1: on the gun, based on the hat, based on the
Speaker 1: location being very close to kenosha Um and being closed
Speaker 1: on the rough facial similarities, um, there was there was
Speaker 1: enough enough to enough to to um enough to put
Speaker 1: put stuff together to be like, Okay, I I think
Speaker 1: I think this is this is probably this is probably
Speaker 1: fine in saying I think this is probably the dude. Um.
Speaker 1: So at this point I wasn't. I wasn't. Again, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna post this immediately, and I'm not gonna post
Speaker 1: something by saying this is who it is without providing
Speaker 1: the evidence. So instead of like writting a thread tweet
Speaker 1: by tweet, I read the whole thread out and then
Speaker 1: tweet the whole thread at the same time. Um so,
Speaker 1: so I put it on the thread documenting my relevant stuff.
Speaker 1: Um I I wrote the first eight posts the same
Speaker 1: time and posted them together with all the evidence of uploaded.
Speaker 1: Um and then and then, Uh, as I was writing
Speaker 1: the threat, I came across another piece of evidence. There
Speaker 1: was one I was going through one of the live
Speaker 1: streams of of that night from a channel called the
Speaker 1: Rundown Live, which I've not heard anything of before or
Speaker 1: since then. Um, but you know one of the many
Speaker 1: streamers that were out, um, and you can see you
Speaker 1: can see Kyle in the frame and then like pans away,
Speaker 1: but the people are still talking. Um so, so Kyle
Speaker 1: Kyle is actually off camera now, um but he I
Speaker 1: think someone like asks him his name and he and
Speaker 1: the person who I think is Kyle replies Kyle. Now,
Speaker 1: of course it's off camera, so it's not you can't
Speaker 1: be totally sure. There's there's enough context clues and that
Speaker 1: plus only other evidence. I'm like, Okay, this is enough
Speaker 1: to add to the thread because it again it's it's
Speaker 1: not enough proof by itself, but it combined with everything
Speaker 1: else completes a much fuller picture. So I posted my
Speaker 1: like niner yeah like eight or nine thing thread on
Speaker 1: being able to prove its Kyle via you know, comparing
Speaker 1: stuff like the gun, uh, the hat, the shirt, and
Speaker 1: demonstrating my work tracking across Facebook and how it's able
Speaker 1: to like link these two people together. Um. Twenty two
Speaker 1: minutes after I posted the threat identifying Kyle Kosha, police
Speaker 1: announced that they were that they were starting an active investigation. UM.
Speaker 1: I soon added a court document to my read about
Speaker 1: a traffic violation UH by someone named cow written house,
Speaker 1: filed a few days before the shooting. The traffic violation
Speaker 1: thing also included stuff like address, which I I I
Speaker 1: blacked out the addressed for that just because sharing the
Speaker 1: sharing for reasons I'll explain, because again, if it's if
Speaker 1: it's a it's a track of violation, if people really
Speaker 1: want it, they can't find it themselves, right, it's it's
Speaker 1: not making impossible to find it. And this was able
Speaker 1: to confirm it. It was in the same location um
Speaker 1: antioch um. And also this this proved that Kyle was
Speaker 1: seventeen at the time. Uh. This is how we knew
Speaker 1: that he was seventeen years old. At the time of
Speaker 1: the shooting was because of this traffic violation document found online.
Speaker 1: So the the address on the violation document was the
Speaker 1: same one I had linked to Kyle's mom. By doing
Speaker 1: other like ocean address work, I was able to find
Speaker 1: out where what what her address was. UM. So so yeah,
Speaker 1: that was that was most to my work that night. Uh.
Speaker 1: It took about I don't know, like two sh maybe
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard, it's hard to break up. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's timing it. It took about half an hour to
Speaker 1: get from the boogaloo meme to finding the matching baseball
Speaker 1: cap on on Kyle's mom's Facebook page, about another half
Speaker 1: hour to write out the thread, and you know, about
Speaker 1: an hour of work previous to that about you know,
Speaker 1: trying to find out the actual you know, footage and
Speaker 1: categorize it. And Okay, this is the clothing he's wearing.
Speaker 1: Here's the clothes I I need to look for on
Speaker 1: social media right see see see see if I can
Speaker 1: find these shoes, these pants, this, this shirt, this hat,
Speaker 1: this bag, that kind of stuff. Um, and I was
Speaker 1: able to find enough of those items to make it
Speaker 1: pretty pretty clear that it was it was you know,
Speaker 1: linked Um and that makes you, Garrison, one of the
Speaker 1: first people in the world to get to no way
Speaker 1: more about Kyle Rittenhouse than you ever wanted to know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot more. This nightmare has been going on longer
Speaker 1: for you than yeah. And so I want to know
Speaker 1: a few other ways to do image verifications, specifically on
Speaker 1: Kyle that that I didn't do, but other people did
Speaker 1: after after I after I said, hey, this is part
Speaker 1: of the guy. So afterwards people found other kind of
Speaker 1: evidence on Kyle's TikTok um and snapchat. So it turns
Speaker 1: out Kyle was snapchatting his night in Wisconsin, um, which
Speaker 1: we would find out later, So he was that he
Speaker 1: was snapchatting from kenosha Um and Garrison. First off, I
Speaker 1: do feel as the representative of zoomers in in this call.
Speaker 1: Why are you Why are you guys all using the snapchats? Huh?
Speaker 1: I don't use I don't use the snapchats. Um. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm making you answer for the crimes of your generation,
Speaker 1: the crimes like the snap Now. Well, technically speaking, I
Speaker 1: have one friend who I only talked to you through snapchat,
Speaker 1: and we both only use it for that and we
Speaker 1: don't know why we use Snapchat. Yeah, there's a few
Speaker 1: people who are like Snapchat, people who only text or snapchat,
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't get it. Yeah, except neither
Speaker 1: of us are like that. We just specifically I just
Speaker 1: got a signal anyway, So yeah, Snapchat. There's also uh
Speaker 1: TikTok Um. There was a footage of of Kyle attending
Speaker 1: a Trump rally at TikTok also him like assembling and
Speaker 1: testing out his gun was on a Snapchat. I believe
Speaker 1: eclips that it were also shared on TikTok so I
Speaker 1: could have got a lot more closer details of the
Speaker 1: gun if if I looked on if if on Snapchat
Speaker 1: or our TikTok Um, and I think, if this is
Speaker 1: this is a good advice that I've taken since then,
Speaker 1: and for other people looking to do this stuff. If
Speaker 1: if a suspect looks as young, um, you know, Snapchat
Speaker 1: and TikTok might be or and and Instagram might be
Speaker 1: apps that are worth are worth checking out for information
Speaker 1: as opposed to like Facebook. Right, lucky, lucky enough, there
Speaker 1: was enough stuff on Facebook on this instance, typically probably
Speaker 1: because no, Kyle's family was come servative so and he
Speaker 1: was conservative, so higher chance of being on Facebook there.
Speaker 1: But you know, in general, if someone's younger and maybe
Speaker 1: look on younger apps. Um but yeah, UM, so you know,
Speaker 1: good thing to think about. You know, whenever these like
Speaker 1: chaotic panics moments happen, you know, missifferation can spread very
Speaker 1: very quickly. UM. Cannot stress enough how dangerous and irresponsible
Speaker 1: it is when a suspect is named without proper verification. UM.
Speaker 1: You know. Uh, last last September, uh Ean Miles Chung
Speaker 1: falsely identified a suspect in the shooting of two l
Speaker 1: A police officers. Of this resulted in the falsely accused
Speaker 1: got a man and receiving many death threats online. I
Speaker 1: think emails Chonging did this like again a few months later.
Speaker 1: He he was doing this a lot last year he
Speaker 1: was doing it. He was really bad about trying to
Speaker 1: identify people. Um. But you know, doing solid solidarification work
Speaker 1: is possible, but extreme caution needs to be taken. UM.
Speaker 1: I need to be very mindful of the consequences of
Speaker 1: your actions when when you're doing this work. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: want to put out Garrison is very good at this
Speaker 1: that that's why it took two hours and a half hours.
Speaker 1: It's going to take it takes a lot longer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like honestly, like I was like it. Finding Kyle was
Speaker 1: just the right mix of things in one moment. Often
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Often it doesn't go that fast, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be right like A big big of
Speaker 1: the problem is that if people think about it needing
Speaker 1: to be like a fast paced thing, that's where that
Speaker 1: that's where the mistakes happen. I was just lucky to
Speaker 1: have enough like dominoes follow in the right place too.
Speaker 1: I identify how the night of having having his neighbor say, hey,
Speaker 1: this guy looks similar to my neighbor, extremely useful in
Speaker 1: in in in the long run, right like that that
Speaker 1: happened faster than that happens in a lot of cases,
Speaker 1: So that really accelerated things. Sometimes it will be easy
Speaker 1: sometimes like a good example of when it's harder. We
Speaker 1: have a decent amount of footage about the individual who
Speaker 1: placed bombs outside of the Capital Bomber before the sixth
Speaker 1: um That person has not been identified and the FBI
Speaker 1: seems to have no goddamn clue. But also what they
Speaker 1: were way more intentional. They were very smart whoever they are,
Speaker 1: they're very capable. They were the only thing on them
Speaker 1: is their shoes. Basically those are those are kind of
Speaker 1: the polls of this right on one. Like that with
Speaker 1: with Rittenhouse, you've got this situation where it's like all
Speaker 1: of the information you need to identify them is there
Speaker 1: openly online. UM. And part of ops sex if you're
Speaker 1: doing things that are crimes UM is to make sure
Speaker 1: that is to limit that that that whatever it is
Speaker 1: you are going to to the to the crimes in UM.
Speaker 1: There nothing exists on the internet that connects that to
Speaker 1: your name and face, and that that doesn't That doesn't
Speaker 1: always mean black block, that can mean other clothing, especially
Speaker 1: if you've been photographed in black block of books. I
Speaker 1: think like if you look at if you look at um,
Speaker 1: the guy who dropped off bombs at January six, he's
Speaker 1: not wearing black block because black block draws attention. He's
Speaker 1: wearing like grays. He's he's wearing like that guy that well,
Speaker 1: that individual person is either a former FED or former
Speaker 1: special for they were very capable, leaning towards FED, who
Speaker 1: showed up in clothing they had never weren't worn before
Speaker 1: and paid for used in cash, probably from a variety
Speaker 1: of places. UM. That clothing was burned as soon as
Speaker 1: they got away. They were out of the state as
Speaker 1: early as it was possible to do so, plant them
Speaker 1: and then immediately get out like um. And you know,
Speaker 1: by the time the capitol, right by the time their
Speaker 1: bombs had been found, they were they were if they
Speaker 1: were smartly gone, you know, like that's how anyway whatever,
Speaker 1: like like oftentimes they can be if someone knows what
Speaker 1: they're doing, this this process could be a lot harder,
Speaker 1: like in the case of the people of of the
Speaker 1: guy who left the bombs at the capitol. Um. You know, Kyle,
Speaker 1: it was not you know, wasn't wearing much identified clothing,
Speaker 1: wasn't even wearing a mask because COVID was for cox um.
Speaker 1: So you know, there's a lot of these things that
Speaker 1: that made this process, um, you know, easier than a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of other verifications. But like I said,
Speaker 1: there still was a lot of false ideas going round
Speaker 1: that night. Um kind of still happens. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: on the fence myself as to whether or not it
Speaker 1: would have been safer like for our country or the
Speaker 1: society or whatever you want to call it. If um,
Speaker 1: like how much more damnage or less damage would have
Speaker 1: been done if Kyle Rittenhouse had been someone who showed
Speaker 1: up in impeccable like clothing that he could not be
Speaker 1: identified from, fucking ran off and was never caught, and
Speaker 1: we just knew there was the shooting of protesters in
Speaker 1: Kenosha um by somebody. UM, Like, I don't know how
Speaker 1: much better or worse that is for society if that happens.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm thinking about terrible things. But sorry,
Speaker 1: first off, I want to apologize. Sometimes talking about this
Speaker 1: stuff winds up seeming like advice for how to commit crimes.
Speaker 1: That's not the intent. It's just when you talk about
Speaker 1: what makes something difficult to identify, your kind of by
Speaker 1: default talking about like here's how to here's how to
Speaker 1: get commit a crime and get away with it, um.
Speaker 1: And it's the kind of thing like if you're doing
Speaker 1: verification work, one of the things that helps is to
Speaker 1: kind of put yourself in the mindset of somebody who, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I'm in this situation and I do this, um,
Speaker 1: what are the decisions that I might make afterwards? Um?
Speaker 1: And you can kind of try to uh think through
Speaker 1: this person like it can be helpful, especially if you're
Speaker 1: trying to like track someone through a day. So you know,
Speaker 1: someone was at this point at a protest at x
Speaker 1: hour because they shot somebody. Um, you know, think through. Okay,
Speaker 1: what else happened that day? Where there other protests? Where
Speaker 1: there other gatherings like or is this one in a
Speaker 1: series of events? Can I go look for you know,
Speaker 1: videos from other things in the area that this person
Speaker 1: might have also been at and might have warned the
Speaker 1: same clothing. Um, there's anyway. Image verification is fun, catch
Speaker 1: the fever. It is. It is a fun thing to do.
Speaker 1: It's good to if if if you're not able to
Speaker 1: attend in person demos for like like physical reasons or whatever,
Speaker 1: or like mental reasons, doing the stuff from home is
Speaker 1: is another way of getting involved, especially already not tracking
Speaker 1: down bad people after the after they do bad things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you can, you know, if you want to learn
Speaker 1: more about this with you know, the benefit of also
Speaker 1: visual aids um belling cat has if you just type
Speaker 1: image verification belling cat. There's beginners and advanced guides to verification. Um,
Speaker 1: there's talk about like manual reverse image search tools and
Speaker 1: like how well they work. There's quizzes, So go go
Speaker 1: there if you if you find this interesting, um, it
Speaker 1: can be quite a hoot. UM. But you know what
Speaker 1: else is quite a hoot ending a goddamn podcast, which
Speaker 1: I'm doing. Now we're done, goodbye. I call the Union
Speaker 1: Hall as his male life and death. I think these
Speaker 1: people of planning to kill Dr King. On April four,
Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis.
Speaker 1: A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He
Speaker 1: pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of
Speaker 1: his life in prison. Case closed right, James L. Ray
Speaker 1: was a pond for the official story the authorities would
Speaker 1: parade at all We found a gun the James L.
Speaker 1: Ray bought in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it
Speaker 1: wasn't the gun that killed Dr King. One of the
Speaker 1: problems that came out when I got the Ray case
Speaker 1: was that some of the evidence, as far as I
Speaker 1: was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the
Speaker 1: MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on
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Speaker 1: Hollow Falls on a mission clearing my aunt best name
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Speaker 1: Welcome to America. That's not great here podcast is here
Speaker 1: a podcast? Welcome it is. If you're an international listener
Speaker 1: and you're not American, that was really get the fuck
Speaker 1: off of our podcast. Just like left people all like,
Speaker 1: are you going to do one for every other country?
Speaker 1: I think they're being rude for barging in the Internet
Speaker 1: is clearly American soil. I would pay good money for
Speaker 1: a wacko things. But with Robert saying all the all
Speaker 1: the countries of the world, well, you know what you
Speaker 1: need to do in order to be able to pay
Speaker 1: good money for something, Garrison. You need to you need to.
Speaker 1: You need to get money by by working well to
Speaker 1: be born rich. But if you're not born rich, you
Speaker 1: have to work. And a lot of people are saying
Speaker 1: what if we did, what if we didn't? And now
Speaker 1: they have a subreddit and that's what we're talking about
Speaker 1: today anti work. Uh, not just the subreddit, but that's
Speaker 1: why we're talking about it today, because the anti work
Speaker 1: subreddit has grown hugely um and it's got like a
Speaker 1: milli it's or it's it's like doubled. It's been around
Speaker 1: for years. It's more than bold, it's it's almost it's almost. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's great. Well, well I'll I'll have the
Speaker 1: numbers for later. Yeah, yeah, okay, great. Um, So, Garrison,
Speaker 1: why don't you kick us off now that I've let
Speaker 1: everyone know what to expect, will stop working um in
Speaker 1: solidarity with the anti work movement. Thanks Robert, Um, You're welcome.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if the past few months, if you're anything
Speaker 1: like us, um and and if you're online in the
Speaker 1: same ways that we are, you've you've probably seen like
Speaker 1: a flurry of posts and screenshots depicting text conversations between
Speaker 1: like an employee and their boss. Typically, the boss like
Speaker 1: asks them to come in when they said they were
Speaker 1: going to have to be have to have having to
Speaker 1: have time off or something. The employee objects, the boston
Speaker 1: gets mad and makes threats and demands the employee be
Speaker 1: a better team player or some bullshit like that, um
Speaker 1: and and then like the employee said something like, well,
Speaker 1: you know what, actually I quit, good luck filling the
Speaker 1: shift now buy and then the boss like pleads that
Speaker 1: the now former employee comes back and offers like concessions
Speaker 1: and end of screenshots. So pretty soon this type of
Speaker 1: like screenshotted text conversation became like a meme format with
Speaker 1: with people joking and obviously like staging fake ones as well.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, similar to the scene I just described
Speaker 1: but but but by all accounts, this trend started incredibly
Speaker 1: like sincerely with with genuine text conversations showcasing like worker
Speaker 1: abuse um and and uh, you know, bosses being unreasonable
Speaker 1: and cruel um and some people putting their jobs just
Speaker 1: to stand up for themselves. And um, all the stuff
Speaker 1: is kind of tied up in the worker shortage kind
Speaker 1: of miss the great resignation as a as a lot
Speaker 1: of pundits, yes, yeah, people of people resigning. And then
Speaker 1: you know a lot of like big companies complaining about
Speaker 1: worker shortages. Um. And and central to this like text conversation,
Speaker 1: online kind of meme trend thing and and employee resignations
Speaker 1: is a sub credit called anti work. So the antiwork
Speaker 1: stub breddit has has been a growing place specifically the
Speaker 1: past year. UM. Their motto is unemployment for all, not
Speaker 1: just for the rich. Uh. It's a it's a good mode.
Speaker 1: Good it is. It is a solid it's a solid
Speaker 1: botto of their their their own like a description is
Speaker 1: uh a subundit for those who want to end work,
Speaker 1: are curious about ending work, want to get the most
Speaker 1: out of a work free life, want more information on
Speaker 1: anti work ideas, and want personal help with their own
Speaker 1: jobs slash work related struggles. So back in back in February,
Speaker 1: um it only the subwart it's been around, but back
Speaker 1: in February it had like two hundred and thirty five
Speaker 1: thousand UM subs and now it has over one point
Speaker 1: one million um it's grown. Most of that growth has
Speaker 1: been in the past two months. Uh. It's in his
Speaker 1: kind of kind of exploded in popularity. Um And actually
Speaker 1: it got it got so big, and there's so many
Speaker 1: posts on it that they have to they have they
Speaker 1: have now they have to like restrict text message conversation
Speaker 1: screenshots to only being allowed to be post to, like
Speaker 1: on one day a week, just because of the intense
Speaker 1: influx of of these posts, you know, some of them genuine,
Speaker 1: others maybe not so much. Um And And even though
Speaker 1: the suburn it may not be the biggest in terms
Speaker 1: of like subscribers, um, it's it has more like daily
Speaker 1: posts than something like the Wall Street Bets suburb it has,
Speaker 1: so even though it doesn't have as many subscribers, the
Speaker 1: amount of actual like posting on it is higher than
Speaker 1: a lot of other suburates as well. So it is
Speaker 1: it is growing in popularity, like in in in multiple ways.
Speaker 1: It feels a little bit right now, like the social
Speaker 1: media equivalent of at of a sort of damole. It's
Speaker 1: like Wall Street Bets made a not insignificant uh splash
Speaker 1: earlier this year. It was it was quite a thing
Speaker 1: for the national economy for a little while there. UM
Speaker 1: and Anti Work hasn't had that moment, but I kind
Speaker 1: of feel like it might be getting close to critical mass,
Speaker 1: Like something, something might come out of this UM which
Speaker 1: I think would be rad For for the record, I
Speaker 1: think would be rad absolutely, And you know, it may
Speaker 1: not be one big thing, but it could be a
Speaker 1: lot of smaller things, right. You know, sometimes it's harder
Speaker 1: to see bigger change when you're like having more anarchist
Speaker 1: adjacent ideas and and and the and the anti works
Speaker 1: that when it does, does try to keep itself being
Speaker 1: a radical subred and does trying to fight off neoliberal
Speaker 1: sentiments and stuff. And there have been there have been
Speaker 1: some complaints I've seen of people being like ah, the
Speaker 1: liberals have gotten in and and people are talking about like, well,
Speaker 1: I just really want a life that's like I'm not
Speaker 1: stressed all the time, and I have enough money for
Speaker 1: for bills and stuff. Like people have been talking about
Speaker 1: like oh, this job, Like I I left my old
Speaker 1: job and I got into a better situation that's good.
Speaker 1: And there's complaints about that. And I think it is
Speaker 1: important to like push against de radicalizing the subredit. But
Speaker 1: I don't think it's bad that you're getting a lot
Speaker 1: of liberals in there who are not turned off by
Speaker 1: the name anti work UM. And I think that's I
Speaker 1: think it's positive that that there, even if they're you know,
Speaker 1: they're not coming at it from kind of a revolutionary perspective.
Speaker 1: But hey, it's okay to quit my job if if
Speaker 1: the conditions your shipped and try to find a place
Speaker 1: where I'm treated better. If that's their in road to
Speaker 1: this kind of thought, I still think that's pretty pretty awesome. Yeah, absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 1: because I mean, it's not realistic for every single person.
Speaker 1: Well and actually it is realistic for every single person
Speaker 1: to quit their job, but it's it's not realistic for
Speaker 1: only a few people to write and sometimes if if not,
Speaker 1: if if everyone's not going to do it, like literally everyone,
Speaker 1: then he knows, some people can't can't afford to quit
Speaker 1: their job UM right now because they have like kids,
Speaker 1: defeat or whatever um for themselves or you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot there's a lot of reasons, which I'll kind
Speaker 1: of talk a little bit more about later. So and
Speaker 1: so the term anti work does does not does not
Speaker 1: come from the sub credit um and anti work has
Speaker 1: been like a post left term for a while now
Speaker 1: and kind of kind of applies to a broad spectrum
Speaker 1: of like anarchist adjacent kind of thought around. Hey, if
Speaker 1: we're gonna if we're gonna question like capitalism, uh and
Speaker 1: the state, we should probably also question just the idea
Speaker 1: of work itself and how it functions, and how the
Speaker 1: state kind of works only possible with the state, And
Speaker 1: it's that specific line line of thinking. UM. A few
Speaker 1: examples of like of like you know, seminal anti work
Speaker 1: books um is. One of them is Bob Blacks The
Speaker 1: Abolition of Work. UM. Crime Think has a really good
Speaker 1: book just called work, which is another another one that
Speaker 1: gets referenced a lot, even even in the subredit and
Speaker 1: also Bullshit Jobs by David Graber, and uh, Bullshit Jobs
Speaker 1: was also kind of partially inspired by Bob Blacks The
Speaker 1: The Abolition of Work. Um. All of those are are
Speaker 1: great resources and uh specifically like Bullshit Jobs is great
Speaker 1: and like a like a for a modern outlook on this,
Speaker 1: like Bob Black's book was written was written a while ago,
Speaker 1: and Buship Jobs is definitely very timely and even even
Speaker 1: even Crimes Things Work book also also addresses stuff or
Speaker 1: even though it wasn't not written within the past. I
Speaker 1: think it is maybe slightly older than than a decade,
Speaker 1: but I think that they are updating it with more
Speaker 1: information about like the gig economy and stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's it's not as it's characterized and as as
Speaker 1: anti work is often characterised by critics. It's not saying
Speaker 1: like nobody should have to do anything in a way.
Speaker 1: It's not Actually we'll talk about Diogenes later, um, but
Speaker 1: it's not everyone should just like lay around and do nothing.
Speaker 1: It's people shouldn't have to do the thing that we
Speaker 1: call work, which is destroy your body or your mind
Speaker 1: or both, uh, most of your waking hours, most of
Speaker 1: your life in the hope that you'll get ten years
Speaker 1: as an old person to not do that, like and
Speaker 1: and and and a little bit that that that's bad.
Speaker 1: That's a bad way to be a person, like a
Speaker 1: bad way to have to be And it's not bad
Speaker 1: to do that, it's it's bad that you have to
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, Yeah, And I mean and there is
Speaker 1: a there is a little bit of it that is
Speaker 1: about finding time to chill out, which which it was
Speaker 1: just gonna apply a lot of you know, a lot
Speaker 1: of the ways if you have to keep a job,
Speaker 1: you know, the different ways you can you can go
Speaker 1: about that job that does that makes it so it
Speaker 1: doesn't like kill you. One of my favorite ways to
Speaker 1: think about anti work is just like anti capitalism put
Speaker 1: into actual practice. So it's sort of you know, just
Speaker 1: debating online about anti capitalism as some you know, future
Speaker 1: things like no, like what can you do to actually
Speaker 1: you know, make capitalism less important part of how you
Speaker 1: live your life every day, which means you know, not
Speaker 1: obsessing over careers and all these kind of other things.
Speaker 1: So I think I think, first of all, it might
Speaker 1: be useful to kind of think about, like what do
Speaker 1: we actually mean by work? Because works kind of a
Speaker 1: works like a it's it has a lot of definitions,
Speaker 1: depend depending on what's like you depend depending on like
Speaker 1: what you mean by it? Right? Is it just like
Speaker 1: wage labor? Is it just forced labor? Um? You know,
Speaker 1: is cooking for yourself or your family considered work? But
Speaker 1: not always? But you know, like at times when I
Speaker 1: when when I where I'm like relaxed, I quite enjoy
Speaker 1: cooking for friends and family. But but certainly, but certainly
Speaker 1: it can feel like work sometimes, especially if you especially
Speaker 1: if you just got home from like a work shift,
Speaker 1: so in a way like work creates more work. Um,
Speaker 1: And it's it's not it's it's it kind of it doesn't.
Speaker 1: It isn't just it isn't just about like wage labor
Speaker 1: or something. It can kind of apply to a lot
Speaker 1: of ways about how you live your life. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of looking laying down wood chips or sad.
Speaker 1: If that's like your job, every day can be like
Speaker 1: a miserable, backbreaking process. If you actually have a huge
Speaker 1: yard or like own a little bit of land and
Speaker 1: you're making your own garden, that can be an intensely
Speaker 1: like the best part of your week. It can be
Speaker 1: a great Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not. The problem is
Speaker 1: not the individual tasks necessarily, it's what work is as
Speaker 1: a as a a platonic kind of concept in our society. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Not And and again one of the things, and I
Speaker 1: think this is one of the things speaking of you
Speaker 1: talked about David Graber earlier, who's an anarchist anthropologist and
Speaker 1: widely seen to be like one of the most brilliant
Speaker 1: anthropologists of his generation. He did he recently deceased, but
Speaker 1: a book that he wrote before he died with another
Speaker 1: and another fellow came out recently called The Dawn of
Speaker 1: Everything that talks a lot about how, yeah, these ideas,
Speaker 1: that kind of capitalism has a vested interest in you
Speaker 1: believing that the world was always hard in the way
Speaker 1: that it's hard, by which I mean like, in order
Speaker 1: to get basic necessities, you have to make somebody else
Speaker 1: rich um or find some grift of your own. And
Speaker 1: as opposed to like, yeah, life is always hard, but
Speaker 1: life wasn't didn't always involve labor the way we think
Speaker 1: about it. Labor has not been a constant in human civilization.
Speaker 1: In fact, most of human civilization people have not done
Speaker 1: a thing that we would recognize as labor. And I
Speaker 1: think also even if you go towards things that like
Speaker 1: look more like labor to us, right, like I don't know,
Speaker 1: like look look like if you look at like feudal levies, right,
Speaker 1: you're a peasant, you have to get some amount of
Speaker 1: graintier lord. But like, okay, we work way longer than
Speaker 1: medieval peasist did. And not only do we work longer,
Speaker 1: is something Greater and David talk about in that book
Speaker 1: is like yeah, like, not only do we work much longer,
Speaker 1: Like the amount that we work would have been considered absolutely,
Speaker 1: Like even even a feudal lord would look at that
Speaker 1: much work and go no, like this is this is
Speaker 1: this is like and you know, and I think there's
Speaker 1: there's another great hasn't. As another point, um, he wrote
Speaker 1: a piece called Turning Modes of Production inside Out where
Speaker 1: he has this argument that like, okay, so if if
Speaker 1: you take you know, if you take like Plato, right,
Speaker 1: you're like, you take any of the Greek philosophers, even
Speaker 1: the conservative ones, and you show them this the thing,
Speaker 1: the thing that we do every day. Right, you're you know,
Speaker 1: you have you're you're completely under the command of another
Speaker 1: person for like at least a third, probably more of
Speaker 1: your day. Yeah, I monitor you and Garrison's bathroom breaks.
Speaker 1: I look at your texts with family and friends. Um,
Speaker 1: it's it's really the situation. Yeah, it's an incredibly strict
Speaker 1: surveillance state. From Robert Evans. Yeah, yeah, this is like like,
Speaker 1: you know, if you show a Greek person that this
Speaker 1: is like this is the apocalypse to them, this is
Speaker 1: this is the worst thing that could possibly happen. It's
Speaker 1: every single person in society has like essentially been reduced
Speaker 1: to a slave, and you know that's bad and it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be like it's not that they've been
Speaker 1: because I want to push back on that terminology because
Speaker 1: it can go to some uncomfortable places. It's not that
Speaker 1: they are treated as a slave. It's that in the
Speaker 1: hours in which they are expected to labor, there's a
Speaker 1: societal expectation that they act as the property of whoever
Speaker 1: owns the business or manages them. Right. The idea of
Speaker 1: like if it if it like that attitude from like
Speaker 1: like working in a kitchen or or working at a
Speaker 1: fast food restaurant, like if you lean, if you're if
Speaker 1: you can lean, you can clean. Like that attitude is
Speaker 1: saying you do not have any autonomy when you are
Speaker 1: at work. You are the pretty of the of the
Speaker 1: employer while you are at work. Um, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think and I think you know, but I
Speaker 1: think that's a specific thing with Greece is that, like,
Speaker 1: you know, you the only way you could do that
Speaker 1: to someone in Greece is if you owned them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like you know, I'm like the grease has wage labor, right,
Speaker 1: but the only people who like it has wage labor,
Speaker 1: but it has wage labor for slaves. And that's like
Speaker 1: it right, like this, you know, and this is this
Speaker 1: isn't like obviously not to say that, like you know,
Speaker 1: we're like having a job is the same thing as slavery,
Speaker 1: But it's just to say that, like the kinds of
Speaker 1: things that we think of as normal, like are things
Speaker 1: that like the people who you know that the people
Speaker 1: who run the system and the people who you know
Speaker 1: get cited all the time to justify stuff would have
Speaker 1: looked at as like the worst thing that could possibly
Speaker 1: have happened to a society. Yeah, sure, Like daily life
Speaker 1: for a very substantial chunk of of the American workforce
Speaker 1: is that would be a nightmare to large percentages of
Speaker 1: the human population prior to the modern period. It like
Speaker 1: it's it's and and if you think about it that way,
Speaker 1: Like one of the things Greab does a good job
Speaker 1: of going into UM is like the way in which
Speaker 1: uh and this is also something that comes up in
Speaker 1: in in Tribe by Younger, the way in which, like,
Speaker 1: during the early period of colonization of North America, UM,
Speaker 1: it was very common for you know, Europeans to leave
Speaker 1: the cities and in towns being established behind um and
Speaker 1: and join up with indigen the tribes. The reverse never happened,
Speaker 1: like like, not willingly, not without kidnapping being a part
Speaker 1: of it. Um And it's because like their attitude was,
Speaker 1: they were looking at the lives these people were living
Speaker 1: in these cities and like, well, why would you agree
Speaker 1: to do that? And um, this is turning anyway, Garrison.
Speaker 1: You should you should take us back on the rails.
Speaker 1: This is getting more. But first, you know what has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the fact that human beings are
Speaker 1: forced to labor for basic necessities in order to keep
Speaker 1: up a system that steals the freedom of the many
Speaker 1: in order to provide impossible liberty to the few. You
Speaker 1: know what isn't related to that, the advertise industrial complex
Speaker 1: not has nothing to do with it, totally unrelated. Why
Speaker 1: would you say that, Garrison? By the way, did you
Speaker 1: know that McDonald's EEG muffin is turning fifty years old
Speaker 1: and it's giving the breakfast they're they're they're they're selling
Speaker 1: it for its original price of sixty three cents during
Speaker 1: breakfast hour six a m. To ten thirty am, exclusively
Speaker 1: on the McDonald's app. I can't. I can't do you guys?
Speaker 1: Do you guys want to mcmuffins for sixty three cents?
Speaker 1: That's the original price. I wonder what else the McDonald's
Speaker 1: app is looking at on my phone. Anyway, here's some mats.
Speaker 1: Oh we're back and we're talking about anti work. We're
Speaker 1: talking about how works kind of bullshit for our jobs.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, sure are we sure are? So you know,
Speaker 1: like there is there there's a lot of people who
Speaker 1: like enjoy stuff like gardening, fishing, carpentry, cooking, and even
Speaker 1: like you know, just fighting this fighting computer programming just
Speaker 1: for their own sake. Like a lot of the stuff
Speaker 1: that we like, quote unquote needs to need for uh
Speaker 1: society to function, A lot lot of those things people
Speaker 1: like doing as hobbies in their spirits. For for example,
Speaker 1: if you're a police officer, gunning down a man in
Speaker 1: cold blood might be kind of like your day job
Speaker 1: and like frustrating, and there's a lot of ship you
Speaker 1: have to deal with. If you're a mash shooter, though,
Speaker 1: you just love it. You know, you're just doing It's
Speaker 1: that is that is exactly what the cow writtenhouse thing
Speaker 1: is though like like like like like actually like literally
Speaker 1: that that that is what it is. This is we
Speaker 1: I mean, we're not going to get the verdict today.
Speaker 1: It doesn't look like not today, which is a bad sign.
Speaker 1: But by the time this airs, it may already be done. Um.
Speaker 1: But anyway, like a lot a lot of people like
Speaker 1: doing those things without getting paid. And sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: often like cast sing themselves money, right, A lot of
Speaker 1: these hobbies are you know, are costly in their own
Speaker 1: in their own right, um. And I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: to you know, think, think of a society where you're
Speaker 1: where you're free to do those things when you feel
Speaker 1: like it, and you don't need to drag yourself out
Speaker 1: of bed at you know, early in the morning to work,
Speaker 1: to work a ten hour shift as a cash register.
Speaker 1: And it's not just even when you feel like it,
Speaker 1: because there will be things that you have to do,
Speaker 1: even if I will discuss this letter to get yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: in any like yeah, but it's not it's it's not
Speaker 1: work if you're if you're going out and harvesting food
Speaker 1: that feeds you in your community, that's not like work
Speaker 1: in the sense that we talk about modern work. The
Speaker 1: amount of extra energy we have by not having ten
Speaker 1: hour horrible shifts that drain ourselves mentally and physically and
Speaker 1: more in with you know, the amount of most of
Speaker 1: the work that we people do, as shown in David
Speaker 1: Graper's bull bullshit Jobs, is like not necessary, like a
Speaker 1: lot of like a lot of the work that we
Speaker 1: do as a whole is not There's there's some squibbling
Speaker 1: about because the book was based off of a study,
Speaker 1: like a survey that kind of showed a lot of
Speaker 1: very significant chunk of the workforce thinks their job is
Speaker 1: like pointless and doesn't do anything. And there's been some
Speaker 1: criticisms of that, but it is undoubted that a very
Speaker 1: significant amount of total labor time spent is stuff that
Speaker 1: isn't necessary for really like reason of like making people's
Speaker 1: lives better. And another part of like anti work theories
Speaker 1: is looking is looking at our society as it's built,
Speaker 1: you know, because it is it is hid to anarchism,
Speaker 1: and be like how much of this is actually necessary?
Speaker 1: Like how do we do we really need a mac rib?
Speaker 1: Like do we do we do? What do you what
Speaker 1: do you Garrison? We do not? Well, hr need a macrib?
Speaker 1: We do not. I did the company training and they
Speaker 1: the company training says you can't attack someone for their religion,
Speaker 1: and Garrison just attacked the McRib So that actually is
Speaker 1: you know, it is a religion for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: Did you see that there there they they they did
Speaker 1: sell a MicroB n ft a few weeks ago. Um
Speaker 1: and tell me that ship that is so upsetting thank god. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: just saying society with no money would not so gosh.
Speaker 1: But you know, think thinking of like anti work as
Speaker 1: as the theory. You know, it's about cutting down those
Speaker 1: those unnecessary things that fill people's time. Um. And you
Speaker 1: know and for a more you know, forward forward looking sense.
Speaker 1: It's it's a general kind of like like abolition of
Speaker 1: the producer and consumer based society um. So you know,
Speaker 1: life is not dedicated to the production and consumption of
Speaker 1: goods and commodities. So you know this this applies not
Speaker 1: not just a capitalism, but also to you know, like
Speaker 1: state socialism um, where you know, work is still you
Speaker 1: know a big part of state socialism UM. And I
Speaker 1: think you know it's humans. It's it's it posits the
Speaker 1: future that humans can be way way way more free
Speaker 1: when you know, can reclaim their time from jobs and employment, um,
Speaker 1: instead of you know, spending a lot of their time
Speaker 1: doing that than spending spending a lot of like not
Speaker 1: not just time, but also just like their energy. Right
Speaker 1: because even if you work, you know, eight hours a day,
Speaker 1: you still have a majority of the day to yourself.
Speaker 1: But you're exhausted. You can't do man, you can't do
Speaker 1: much right. It's it drains you of everything. So, you know,
Speaker 1: the main point one of the main points of like
Speaker 1: of the abolition of work, I say by Bob Black
Speaker 1: is but like there's no one should work because because
Speaker 1: work is as defined as like as like as like
Speaker 1: a forced labor practice. Um is. You can kind of
Speaker 1: track this to being the source of most of the
Speaker 1: mystery in the world from you know, in in individual people, um,
Speaker 1: who are forced to do this Like this is where
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of their pain comes from.
Speaker 1: Um is this idea is this is this forced labor concept?
Speaker 1: Um I think I think a good a good way
Speaker 1: you know, there is you know, the point that Robert
Speaker 1: brought up earlier is like, you know, what about the
Speaker 1: tasks that aren't fun? You know, what about what about
Speaker 1: the stuff that isn't isn't maybe as as enjoyable. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's, there's there's there's a list of list
Speaker 1: of things that the standard who's going to clean up
Speaker 1: the poop? That's that's the thing. So you know, I
Speaker 1: I kind of I I kind of I kind of
Speaker 1: look at this as like the I kind of kind
Speaker 1: of look at this as like, whenever I have to
Speaker 1: like turn the compost, which is not my favorite thing
Speaker 1: to do. I I don't look forward to having to
Speaker 1: turn over our massive, shitty, rotting compost pile. Not not
Speaker 1: my favorite thing. Um. But no, but now like if
Speaker 1: there's if if there's like friends around and we're playing
Speaker 1: music and we're all we have like some like have
Speaker 1: I have have like an iced tea or a dr pepper,
Speaker 1: and we're like talking as we're turning the compost, it's
Speaker 1: a lot more doable, you know. It's there's there's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's one task that's going to help all of
Speaker 1: us in the future. Um and I'm not getting watched
Speaker 1: over by a boss to fill a certain quote so
Speaker 1: I can pay my rent. Right. It's it's this. It's this,
Speaker 1: it's this thing that helps everybody and I and I
Speaker 1: do it because I want I want the goal of
Speaker 1: it to succeed. So there's there's there's gonna there's always
Speaker 1: gonna be tasks that are less pleasant than others. You know,
Speaker 1: what we can do is, you know, imagine a world
Speaker 1: where the amount of work actually needed to be done
Speaker 1: is greatly reduced so that the tasks that are necessary
Speaker 1: and some of them unpleasant, can be spread out, um
Speaker 1: and among more people, because less people will be wasting
Speaker 1: upwards of eight hours a day, five days a week
Speaker 1: doing mostly pointless time filling work. Because yeah, there's there's
Speaker 1: there's gonna be things that sucked, and we'll be able
Speaker 1: to do those a lot better if there's more people
Speaker 1: and we don't have to waste our times doing stuff
Speaker 1: that is is honestly a lot more bullshit than actually
Speaker 1: scooping bullshit. Wow, what a good joke. Speaking, it's it's
Speaker 1: time to scoop up some more ads. Wait, really, haven't
Speaker 1: we done too? No, we only only did one. All right,
Speaker 1: we went a while without doing one. Guys, listen to
Speaker 1: the products because everyone loves a service. It's not like
Speaker 1: the thing we're talking about is bad. It's different than that.
Speaker 1: So it's fine. Yep, we're back, and we're still still
Speaker 1: talking about anti work, Um, I do. This is something
Speaker 1: that the Crime Think workbook points out, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's a pretty it's pretty obvious thing I've I've certainly
Speaker 1: thought of this before, is that you know, we've been
Speaker 1: told that the like technological progress will soon liberate humanity
Speaker 1: from the need to do work or from you know,
Speaker 1: having to do work as much um. And today we
Speaker 1: have the capabilities that you know, our ancestors couldn't have
Speaker 1: even imagined for free, the amount of work that we
Speaker 1: could get done. Um. But these predictions still like aren't true.
Speaker 1: We're still working more than ever. Even though we have
Speaker 1: developed so much um technologically, we're still working more than ever.
Speaker 1: And if I think it's silly to think that well,
Speaker 1: well will reach like a magic threshold where somehow now
Speaker 1: we have less work to do because we'll have like
Speaker 1: I don't like robots being a server Adam Adam McDonald's
Speaker 1: or whatever. Right where there's still there, there's still is
Speaker 1: forcing people into this thing because this is the only
Speaker 1: way that we can live. Right. This is we've we've
Speaker 1: built our whole society around getting work for money. So
Speaker 1: this is the only the only thing that we can do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: David creeper. One of the things he's argues in Bullshit
Speaker 1: Jobs is that basically, you know, okay, so so if
Speaker 1: if you have like you have the Soviet economy, right, okay,
Speaker 1: so the Soviet economy has has a policy of of
Speaker 1: full employment. And for a little bit they were like, okay,
Speaker 1: what if we make everyone work less? And then they
Speaker 1: stopped and then like everything went to ship. So you know, okay,
Speaker 1: but if if if you can't make people work less
Speaker 1: hours and everyone has to work, what do you do?
Speaker 1: It was like, okay, well you pay a bunch of
Speaker 1: people to like stand at a doorway. Right now, we
Speaker 1: also do this And then one of the gres like
Speaker 1: the funniest points that he brings up is that the
Speaker 1: the total number of bureaucrats in the x USS are
Speaker 1: like increased dramatically after the sr fell, which is incredible.
Speaker 1: And you know what what Ap points to is that, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, Grebar called this total bureaucratization, which is that
Speaker 1: you know what, what we did, instead of like giving
Speaker 1: ourselves more free time, is created this just like endless, enormous,
Speaker 1: incredibly violent bureaucracy that all of us have to spend
Speaker 1: all of our time, like dealing with bullshit from our
Speaker 1: insurance companies and like fighting with like the Comcast service
Speaker 1: person and all of this just like you know, incredibly
Speaker 1: violent to humanizing stuff that you know, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: a make work program, right, it's but it's a make
Speaker 1: work program that just the work that it makes everyone
Speaker 1: is making everyone's lives miserable. And we could just not
Speaker 1: do this. Mh yeah, I mean we could. It's always
Speaker 1: more complicated than that, right, because the thing that is
Speaker 1: when we talk about anti work, I think that's the
Speaker 1: other side of this is like Okay, well, what if
Speaker 1: you get a kid, how are you going to feed
Speaker 1: that kid? Like what if? Like yeah, how are you
Speaker 1: going to keep him in a house? Like how this
Speaker 1: is not even just if you have a kid, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you people die in our society when they do not
Speaker 1: have access to adequate resources. And the only way to
Speaker 1: have access to adequate resources is to be born rich
Speaker 1: or to work. Those are your options. Yeah, that is
Speaker 1: why without without robust mutual aid and the commitment by
Speaker 1: a lot of people to try to make sure that
Speaker 1: a lifestyle is sustainable outside of you know, this system,
Speaker 1: Like it's not impossible, but it's somewhere along the line
Speaker 1: there has to be input. I mean, yeah, like we've
Speaker 1: been talking about Yeah, we've been talking about antiwork as
Speaker 1: like as kind of like a broad hopeful like future
Speaker 1: goal in some other you know, post scarcity. Well not
Speaker 1: not post scarcity, but like it's post like a post crumbling,
Speaker 1: post kind of collapse future. But I think you know,
Speaker 1: for us now, as you know, the antiworks is about
Speaker 1: people now, right, the antiworks it is not about a
Speaker 1: future world. I think the anti work now is like
Speaker 1: an alternative to the obsession with living your life with
Speaker 1: the goal of a career. Yes, it's about true, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's like a project to radically reframe the how
Speaker 1: we think of work and leisure. Um, it's like like
Speaker 1: like like a cognitive antidote to like the like this
Speaker 1: culture of like hustle and hard work, which is like
Speaker 1: taken over our minds and and and our time. So
Speaker 1: it's like for for those who can't just resign from
Speaker 1: their job for whatever reason, whatever moment, the anti work
Speaker 1: is about like thinking of this movement as like the
Speaker 1: antithesis to the mainstream capitalist hustle culture. You know that
Speaker 1: that includes like slacking off more finding ways to waste time,
Speaker 1: possibly even finding ways to steal or scam your boss.
Speaker 1: I I've I've read certain certain alleged ways of doing
Speaker 1: this inside the Anti Work for Days where they got
Speaker 1: it from. But yeah no, but like you no, like
Speaker 1: there is you know, like ways to like scam scam
Speaker 1: whatever corporation you work for. Right that that there's has
Speaker 1: been examples shared in the anti right in the anti works.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's about actually like finding, you know,
Speaker 1: making sure that you hate your work because you should,
Speaker 1: and then figuring out how to live your life with
Speaker 1: that in mind. And I think, what, what are the
Speaker 1: really hard parts about this? Is for people who like
Speaker 1: kind of like their job, people people who are like
Speaker 1: you think who like either like their job or think
Speaker 1: it's like kind of important or like they're special to
Speaker 1: have it, right, it's like, oh, you're like, I'm lucky
Speaker 1: to have such a good job, because like, when you're
Speaker 1: stuck in that mindset, you can often put in like
Speaker 1: a lot of extra unpaid labor because you think it's
Speaker 1: important because you're like, oh, no, this is worth doing
Speaker 1: because it's gonna have some like benefits to the world.
Speaker 1: So you end up like putting in actually more work
Speaker 1: that you don't actually get paid for, and like it's
Speaker 1: about trying to like kill that instinct as well. So
Speaker 1: that's a whole, a whole way to think about like working,
Speaker 1: because like we're gonna be stuck, A lot of people
Speaker 1: are gonna be stuck doing it for for for a while.
Speaker 1: So how can you kind of reframe what we do
Speaker 1: on the job and how kind of jobs live in
Speaker 1: our minds when we are at home. And I think
Speaker 1: the best thing about what you've said, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: is the idea that like this is not the importance
Speaker 1: is not on whether or not this this causes everyone
Speaker 1: to stop having to work immediately, like whether or not
Speaker 1: it leads to you know, directly to like the measure
Speaker 1: of success of this movement isn't that nobody ever has
Speaker 1: to work again. That's a that's a long term goal.
Speaker 1: The measure of the success of this movement is that
Speaker 1: people accept in mass that no, the American dream as
Speaker 1: it's sold to people is not a good thing too.
Speaker 1: It's not a thing. To aspire to work is bullshit,
Speaker 1: and we should aspire to a society that doesn't do it.
Speaker 1: It's getting back honestly, Like it's getting back to some
Speaker 1: of the ship that people were talking about in like
Speaker 1: when The Jetsons was on TV, the idea that like, well,
Speaker 1: with labor saving devices, the like a hard work week
Speaker 1: will be four hours and like that's the way life
Speaker 1: will be for everybody, and like, um, and the it's
Speaker 1: the acceptance that like, no, a better future involves me
Speaker 1: not having it. Mouls no one having to spend forty
Speaker 1: hours a week of their limited human life working at
Speaker 1: a fucking sonic or like listening to some middle manager
Speaker 1: brate them for not answering phones fast enough. Um, that
Speaker 1: doesn't exist for any human being in a world that
Speaker 1: is achievable and better than the one that we live in.
Speaker 1: Like convincing people of that and getting that to be
Speaker 1: widely accepted is I think? What I think? What is
Speaker 1: what I would consider the terms of victory in in
Speaker 1: this particular struggle. Yeah, kind of moving on from this
Speaker 1: side of things into like the Great Resignation and the
Speaker 1: other kind of things that people are doing so um.
Speaker 1: In August alone, four point three million Americans voluntarily left
Speaker 1: their jobs um, and the rate of people quitting increased
Speaker 1: to a a decent A decent record high of like
Speaker 1: a two point nine percent according to the Bureau of
Speaker 1: Labor and Statistics. So and this this, this, this has
Speaker 1: been a growing trend. You can look at like I
Speaker 1: think June was like a like a little under four million.
Speaker 1: August was four point three. It's like it was you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's ramping. I don't know what if. I don't
Speaker 1: know if we have data for September or October. Yet
Speaker 1: this was the most recent one I could find. Um, So, yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's stuff. Stuff is, stuff is going up. People
Speaker 1: are because because people are like a big part of
Speaker 1: the antiborks. It's like, yeah, if your job sucks, you
Speaker 1: can quit it and probably find another one that pays
Speaker 1: better in decent time, especially especially especially right now, like
Speaker 1: right now, if your job is really terrible, you have
Speaker 1: a decent chance of finding a better one. Um. This
Speaker 1: wasn't the case like two years ago. Um it is
Speaker 1: the case that at this moment, so a lot of
Speaker 1: the antiporksbre and it's like, yeah, quit your job, like
Speaker 1: say fuck you to your boss and leave because if
Speaker 1: they're being shitty then they don't deserve to have you. Um.
Speaker 1: So resigning has it has been been a big part
Speaker 1: of this, and there has there has been attempts at
Speaker 1: other kind of organized stuff, and this kind of falls
Speaker 1: into In my opinion, this kind of falls into the
Speaker 1: same kind of traps as sole internet organizing kind of
Speaker 1: always does. So the big thing that they're organizing for
Speaker 1: is called Black Friday Blackout, which is about kind of
Speaker 1: trying to get everyone to as many people as possible
Speaker 1: to not work Black Friday, um and not buy anything
Speaker 1: on Black Friday. UM. So, like a post from the
Speaker 1: suburb of here is like spread the word call in sick.
Speaker 1: If you're forced to work black on Black Friday, spend
Speaker 1: time with your family instead, remain at home and participate
Speaker 1: in your favorite activity on Friday November. Talk to your
Speaker 1: family and friends about about your work life struggles. Pass
Speaker 1: up flyers, join our slash anti work UM. So this
Speaker 1: is you know, I think this kind of falls into
Speaker 1: this seem like you know, general strike organized online stuff
Speaker 1: that we talked about before, how kind of like a
Speaker 1: lack of like real like in person solidarity and like
Speaker 1: non internet you know, networking and organizing results and stuff
Speaker 1: like this just you know, like proposed like one day
Speaker 1: strikes or actions that are ultimately kind of non effectual, right,
Speaker 1: Like they can be like a good symbol sometimes, but
Speaker 1: like you know, they're not. It's it's it's not, it's
Speaker 1: not really gonna matter that much, even even if it works. Well,
Speaker 1: what I think it'd be cool if literally no store
Speaker 1: was open on Black Friday because everyone quit. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: would be rad. But that's that's not I don't that's
Speaker 1: not gonna really happen. Um. It would be fun if
Speaker 1: it did, but like, realistically, it's it's not, it's not
Speaker 1: gonna happen. And there is people on the subred who
Speaker 1: also point this out there there there there was there
Speaker 1: was a reply to this post that was like, oh,
Speaker 1: look another online call for a general strike with no
Speaker 1: union support whatsoever. Don't worry y'all. This one's this one
Speaker 1: is definitely gonna work. Um. So it's like, yeah, like
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people in the sub also recognize that,
Speaker 1: like without like actual like organizing support um and in
Speaker 1: person stuff and you know networks to support people on
Speaker 1: like you know, lengthy strikes. These types of things are
Speaker 1: kind of are mostly symbolic actions that will have, you know,
Speaker 1: in the end, little little impact. Um. They may make
Speaker 1: you feel powerful as you're doing them, which is you know,
Speaker 1: which is good. That is a lot of activism is
Speaker 1: actually just just about you feeling powerful in that moment um.
Speaker 1: But you know, as as an end goals, remember it's
Speaker 1: important to be remember to think like it's not it's
Speaker 1: that this isn't you know, this isn't gonna reach whatever
Speaker 1: anti work utopia, which I I know people people organizing
Speaker 1: it aren't thinking that, but you know, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: important to keep this within context of like the limits
Speaker 1: of even of of online organizing. You know, so a
Speaker 1: lot a lot of people like recommend you know, focusing
Speaker 1: on organizing your own workplace and community, um, discussing you know,
Speaker 1: discussing having discussions with with unions kind of in in
Speaker 1: your area. Um and yeah, a part of part of,
Speaker 1: part of kind of the part of the reply to
Speaker 1: to this original like a Black Friday blackout post that
Speaker 1: that someone that someone wrote was was seriously though, I
Speaker 1: would love for an actual general strike to kick off,
Speaker 1: but these online calls for general strikes with no union involvement,
Speaker 1: no demands, no supports for strikers of any kind, no
Speaker 1: nothing whatsoever beyond social media hashtags don't do anything focus
Speaker 1: on organizing or workplace any community discussed with unions which
Speaker 1: might be sympathetic to what criteria, uh, what criteria they
Speaker 1: might need from such a drastic action. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of unions on strike right now, so if there ever
Speaker 1: was the time to kick one off, it's now. Most
Speaker 1: general strikes in the past and started off with specific
Speaker 1: strikes that started pulling in other union the Neians and
Speaker 1: solidarity than anything else. Focus on that and we might
Speaker 1: get somewhere. I think it is it's a decent is
Speaker 1: a decent advice for the people who are really dedicated
Speaker 1: onto this kind of like general strike thing is Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is that is that is um pretty pretty good
Speaker 1: advice in in my opinion, I want to see something
Speaker 1: kind of briefly just in general about general strikes because
Speaker 1: I think we've talked about it a lot on here,
Speaker 1: but they're really really hard. I mean there there, there's
Speaker 1: there's an example, like and like just to just to
Speaker 1: get a picture of like how how actually hard it
Speaker 1: is to pull off. There was there was one in
Speaker 1: Sudan in in summer nineteen and you know, I mean
Speaker 1: this is this is in the middle of the revolution, right,
Speaker 1: the like Sudan is incredibly highly organized, as incredibly built,
Speaker 1: and people have been like you know, I mean, people
Speaker 1: like the like the chance in the street is like,
Speaker 1: you cannot kill us, were already dead, like you know
Speaker 1: they and you know, and and it's the whole revolution
Speaker 1: is being led by the Student Professional Association, which is
Speaker 1: an association of like seventeen trade unions. Right, so this
Speaker 1: this is a population that is enormously better organized than
Speaker 1: like anything really that exists in the US. And you know,
Speaker 1: in in the middle of the summer of the army
Speaker 1: opens fire and starts killing protesters, and so they call
Speaker 1: general strike, and you know, the turnout is massive, right,
Speaker 1: they have millions, millions upon millions of people show up
Speaker 1: to the strike, and on day one it's successful. And
Speaker 1: then on day two of the strike, people start having
Speaker 1: to pull out, especially people in the in formal sector,
Speaker 1: because even with the level of organization they have, they
Speaker 1: can't support everyone. And by about day three, most of
Speaker 1: the strike is collapsed because even even with levels of
Speaker 1: organization they had, even with you know, the coordination, even
Speaker 1: with the fact that they're in the middle of the revolution,
Speaker 1: they just they couldn't support particularly people in the informal sector.
Speaker 1: So this stuff is really really really hard, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it is even it is definitely hard. Yeah, Like even
Speaker 1: even highly organized, highly motivated people who are you know,
Speaker 1: like literally willing to fight to the death will lose.
Speaker 1: And that's that's something that you have to sort of
Speaker 1: keep in minds, I think when you're talking about this,
Speaker 1: because a lot of people are more focused on the
Speaker 1: kind of their individual resignations, finding other ways of making money,
Speaker 1: and just slacking off at work in general, because those
Speaker 1: are a lot a lot easier than trying to organize
Speaker 1: a general a mass general strike right now. And I
Speaker 1: think one of the really optimistic things about this whole
Speaker 1: anti work thing, including including the subreun is that it
Speaker 1: has made some big executives kind of nervous. Um. There
Speaker 1: was a fantastic article by Yahoo Finance. Now by fantastic,
Speaker 1: I mean funny for me. You know, they did not
Speaker 1: think it was as funny um about They talked with
Speaker 1: like the Golden Sacks CEO of and uh and they
Speaker 1: pointed to the anti work separated of being what was
Speaker 1: the what was the phrase, um, A long run risk
Speaker 1: to to labor force participation good. This is see that
Speaker 1: that when I first read that in the article, I
Speaker 1: just like flashed to my head in my head to
Speaker 1: that scene from Starship Troopers where Neil Patrick Harris puts
Speaker 1: his hand on the brain bug, it goes, it's afraid,
Speaker 1: It's afraid. Yeah, yeah, he said, Uh, we see some
Speaker 1: risk that workers were elected will elect to maintain out
Speaker 1: of the workforce for longer, provided they can afford to
Speaker 1: do so. Of pretty pretty good stuff and and and
Speaker 1: everything that's worth mentioning that hasn't been talked about very
Speaker 1: much is that So this is actually kind of working
Speaker 1: in some sense, Like the last few months general, last
Speaker 1: few months particular have seen basically like the highest levels
Speaker 1: of wage increases that we've seen in decades. So you know, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we haven't overthrown capitalism yet, but like if you can
Speaker 1: keep quitting your job, keep quitting your job at at
Speaker 1: your regular job, work less, keep doing it, it's working. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is stuff wish we need to in the future.
Speaker 1: I would like us to be focusing more on stuff
Speaker 1: like that like this. That is legitimately, as you point out, Chris,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons to be very optimistic about
Speaker 1: about some of the numbers that we're getting from what
Speaker 1: is happening to labor right now? UM, and it is
Speaker 1: important as we all like right now we're all miserable
Speaker 1: because we're sweating through the rittenhouse case, it is important
Speaker 1: to talk about stuff like that that like, yeah, some
Speaker 1: ship people is doing is hitting a home. Some motherfucker's
Speaker 1: have found the glowy vulnerable spot on the Boss Monster
Speaker 1: and it's it's yeah, it's just not working. Yeah. Like again,
Speaker 1: as we started the series with, like yeah, General Strike
Speaker 1: is is kind of the best available solution um or
Speaker 1: a path to a solution that I can find. Um
Speaker 1: But anyway, uh what what what what? What? What else?
Speaker 1: I think that that does it for us today? I
Speaker 1: know special special like sequel stuff happening. Uh so tune
Speaker 1: in tomorrow for our list work in China, and like
Speaker 1: like all of the best sequels, this one will be
Speaker 1: directed by James Cameron. UM. So we're all very excited
Speaker 1: to bring our pal James onto the pod, to bring
Speaker 1: our pal James and the reanimated corpse of Stan Winston.
Speaker 1: Um it's going to be amazing. So check it out
Speaker 1: by everybody. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the New York
Speaker 1: Times bestseller fair Play and find your Unicorn space activists
Speaker 1: on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator.
Speaker 1: And I'm Dr adding A Rucar, a Harvard physician and
Speaker 1: medical correspondent with an expertise and the science of stress, resilience,
Speaker 1: mental health and burnout. We're so excited to share our
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Speaker 1: The art world it is essentially a money laundering business.
Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You
Speaker 1: know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes.
Speaker 1: I'm at like Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed,
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Speaker 1: painting was fake. Um Listen to Art Fraud starting February
Speaker 1: one on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Fuck work, work, Hey, hey, hey, hey,
Speaker 1: good introduction. I'm Robert Evans. This is it could happen here.
Speaker 1: That was Chris Garrison's also here, so is Sophie, who
Speaker 1: is changing her name to Sophie. What is your new name,
Speaker 1: Sophie dot Com Arena, Sophie dot Com Arena. She's doing
Speaker 1: this to deal with the trauma of the fact that
Speaker 1: Los Angeles just agreed to change the name of the
Speaker 1: Chase Bank Arena to Crypto dot Com st Center, Oh,
Speaker 1: Staples Center, Sorry, I'm getting my arena's named after venal
Speaker 1: brands mixed up. Speaking of the pointlessness of work, there
Speaker 1: are people laboring right now who worked at Staples so
Speaker 1: that Staples would have enough money to name a place
Speaker 1: where people go do sports after a place where people
Speaker 1: get fucking pencils um And now Staples has declined enough
Speaker 1: that it's just crypto dot com. Fucking Crypto dot com
Speaker 1: book upon look up on the worst cryptocurrency e formerly
Speaker 1: Mighty Staples in despair, fucking the Osmond Dius of the
Speaker 1: office supply world. I don't know whatever, what are we
Speaker 1: talking about. We're going to no comes in the middle,
Speaker 1: but right now we're gonna go to a place where
Speaker 1: they banned crypto mining for the most part, so and
Speaker 1: that that places China, and I wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: specifically a lot of us been going on the Chinese Internet,
Speaker 1: what's been going on in Chinese labor because so Garrison
Speaker 1: Garrison told me we're doing an at work episode, and
Speaker 1: I went, oh, yeah, there's a there's you know, there's
Speaker 1: a version of this in China. And then I realized
Speaker 1: that like a almost no one has heard of lying
Speaker 1: flat and be it rules and see that nobody really
Speaker 1: know in the US knows what's going on in the
Speaker 1: Chinese Internet because it's effectively siloed. And I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's, there's there's there's lots different ways to silo.
Speaker 1: I mean there's there's literally the Great Firewall. There's factors
Speaker 1: and different languages, people, different apps, and you know, the
Speaker 1: Internet has become this sort of like you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a bubbles don't interact with each other. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the wald Garden thing, and it's you know, the sort
Speaker 1: of national level world Garden stuff is I think in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, way more dangerous than the stuff
Speaker 1: you know that like people complaining about it was sucking
Speaker 1: audio logical bubble and like that's bad. But the fact
Speaker 1: that we have bubbles like this where it's like you know,
Speaker 1: the like with with like actual they basically borders but
Speaker 1: online Yeah yeah, because they're enforced by governments with force. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the place it was always going to go. Um, once
Speaker 1: we decided not to be rad with the internet, which
Speaker 1: everyone collectively decided in I'm going to say one thousand
Speaker 1: four Okay, yeah, do you think do you think do
Speaker 1: do you think? Do you think that was eleven fault?
Speaker 1: Nine eleven played a role. Nine eleven did play a role. Um,
Speaker 1: the dot com boom played another role. Um, there were
Speaker 1: there there, There were a number of factors. Um, but
Speaker 1: we can all blame it on let's blame it on
Speaker 1: low tax and continue. So anti work in China before
Speaker 1: we get into lying flat, which is China's version of
Speaker 1: anti work, isn't the right word because this actually started
Speaker 1: a few months before sort of anti work blew up
Speaker 1: in the US. But before we fully get into that,
Speaker 1: to understand what's going on here, we need to talk
Speaker 1: about something called involution. And did you say that again?
Speaker 1: Like inval involution? Involution? Yeah, So this this, this is
Speaker 1: this is originally this is a very obscure anthropological term
Speaker 1: developed by my old nemesis Clifford Geertz, who's one of
Speaker 1: the most famous and most important anthropologists in history, who
Speaker 1: also sucks ass, and I hate him. I thought your
Speaker 1: nemesis was Noam Chomsky. Yes, also, but for different reasons.
Speaker 1: Should I cancel the hit sub sub nemesis something? I
Speaker 1: have many I have many nemesses that I have on
Speaker 1: the side. God here Jody Dean episode at some point. Now,
Speaker 1: thank you. I appreciate allies in my one person intellectual wars,
Speaker 1: although this does seem to be a pretty boring intellectual war, yeah,
Speaker 1: said most of them. Yeah yeah, but what what what
Speaker 1: Gears was describing? Basically, so he does his field work
Speaker 1: in Java, and what are you describing? What what involution means?
Speaker 1: It's the system where people keep working harder and harder
Speaker 1: for there's no increase in output, and so that there's
Speaker 1: no there's no rewards for working harder. And so you know,
Speaker 1: in Java you'd have these plantations, right, and the plantations
Speaker 1: would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But
Speaker 1: because each new person was only like harvesting just enough
Speaker 1: to feed themselves, you never actually got any productivity increases.
Speaker 1: And so you know, Yeah, there's no there's no output
Speaker 1: increases and in not really the case in America in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yeah, and what's interesting, Well, okay,
Speaker 1: so the reason I want to talk about this also
Speaker 1: is because based like everyone who's been writing about this inmation,
Speaker 1: NEUWS outlets has missed about half of the story of
Speaker 1: how how this like incredibly obscure anthropological term that like
Speaker 1: I don't like Again, I was an anthropology major. I
Speaker 1: don't think I ever ran into involution while like while
Speaker 1: I was studying anthropology. Yeah, and no one has ever
Speaker 1: heard of this, Like fucking everyone in China has like
Speaker 1: like a treatise they can spout at you about this now. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and you know, I want to talk a bit
Speaker 1: about how to emerge. And part of this is because,
Speaker 1: you know, in the last about two years, people will
Speaker 1: be getting increasingly piste off at you know, just the
Speaker 1: sort of incredibly competitive nature of Chinese society and particularly work.
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of this is because everyone's
Speaker 1: working what's what's called, which is nine am to nine pm,
Speaker 1: six days a week. And she actually, do you make
Speaker 1: this good? When I say everyone that's like an average schedule.
Speaker 1: The schedules get a lot worse than that, But the
Speaker 1: nine six is the one that sort of gets the
Speaker 1: attention because a lot of people work in especially in
Speaker 1: the tech industry. This is you know, we do, but
Speaker 1: you know, everyone focused on the tech industry, everyone ignores
Speaker 1: a bunch of myrket workers who also do this and worse.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's just a normal societal pressure to
Speaker 1: sort of keep moving and keep competing and keep working.
Speaker 1: And simultaneously, you know, people in China today are working
Speaker 1: like basically as hard as anyone's worked in China since
Speaker 1: like people would literally collapse and missastion in the fields
Speaker 1: and the great leap forward Like that's lots of people
Speaker 1: are working this hard. And but but instead of you know,
Speaker 1: getting rewards for this, Chinese growth rates have been collapsing
Speaker 1: for a decade. And yeah, this is you know, this
Speaker 1: is this is the thing that you get. In the
Speaker 1: U s too, was like, well, okay, people were like, well,
Speaker 1: if you work out to get into the middle class,
Speaker 1: but then you know, everyone's working nine six. No one's
Speaker 1: getting into the widdle class. The like, China has incredibly
Speaker 1: low rates of social ability, and you know it into
Speaker 1: this comes involution But the weird part of what what's
Speaker 1: happening here is that involution doesn't enter the Chinese disc
Speaker 1: course through like people complaining about work. It's it's actually
Speaker 1: a product of a bunch of middle class people complaining
Speaker 1: about Chinese industrial policy. And this is the hardest story
Speaker 1: that nobody really talks about, even though I think it's
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because again like this, you know, anti
Speaker 1: anti work in the U s RS and the left
Speaker 1: right involution, which is the thing that's going to bring
Speaker 1: about sort of the Chinese version of anti work is
Speaker 1: the right way is originally right wing discourse, um and
Speaker 1: and And it's interesting, it's it's it's a right wing,
Speaker 1: very nationalist discourse that gets you know, the right wing
Speaker 1: part of it gets essentially expunged and it gets pulled left.
Speaker 1: So originally, you know, China is I don't have a
Speaker 1: more elegant way of saying this than China's leaders, and
Speaker 1: more online than ours, like significantly more like they Actually
Speaker 1: that's hard, that's hard to abash it. It's people people
Speaker 1: like like local government offices right have like they they
Speaker 1: have these like internal sites that like show them what
Speaker 1: people are posting this. This goes from the from the
Speaker 1: bottom levels, it goes away to the top. Like people
Speaker 1: actually listen to bloggers like like that they're there, you know,
Speaker 1: some of them, some of the people we're about to
Speaker 1: talk about it are incredibly influential. And there's a bunch
Speaker 1: of arguments in the early two thousands about how China
Speaker 1: is going to industrialize and these are basically online arguments. UM,
Speaker 1: and the guys who win that argument r she shimping
Speaker 1: basically takes their industrial policy and implements it which is
Speaker 1: you know, which is which is scales? Like how online
Speaker 1: these people are that? Like, yeah, people are taking econot
Speaker 1: policy from like literally, I mean, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: not solely up. I don't take a policy people arguing
Speaker 1: on the internet, right, this is this is an incredibly
Speaker 1: online society and it you know, but the worst part
Speaker 1: is that for a while it works. You know that
Speaker 1: the echonart policy basically is they're gonna increases size of
Speaker 1: the Chinese economy by investing in sort of high tech
Speaker 1: industry and moving up the value chain. This is this
Speaker 1: has been very standards or Chinese second on policy for
Speaker 1: a while. Um. The problem is in the last about
Speaker 1: decade it's it's it's stopped working. And you know, the
Speaker 1: CCPs response was to do more financialization, and this piste
Speaker 1: off the like the the online they were they were
Speaker 1: called like the Industrial Party. This this this is off those guys,
Speaker 1: because you know, the whole thing was don't financialize, just
Speaker 1: keep investing in like building airplanes and stuff, and the
Speaker 1: Chinese economies will work itself out. And but eventually even
Speaker 1: they can't keep making this argument because you know, I
Speaker 1: mean like like he doesn't tend right, Like the Chinese
Speaker 1: GDP growth rate was ten percent and now it's like
Speaker 1: maybe five and last year, I mean last year twenties,
Speaker 1: so you know it was really low. But I mean,
Speaker 1: the Chinese growth rate has been imploding. And so what
Speaker 1: you get out of this is is this group of
Speaker 1: people called the Paoists based on this guy named Cow. Okay. So,
Speaker 1: so Cow is the guy who who who essentially introduces
Speaker 1: the concept of involution and he's arguing that this is
Speaker 1: happening because I'm gonna quote him here, people can't get
Speaker 1: quote a peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in
Speaker 1: a big house because of the US. And so there's
Speaker 1: the solution to this, basically is is to deal with
Speaker 1: like to destroy America as a jem on. And then
Speaker 1: once you do that, you know you can get all
Speaker 1: of these things. And as you can tell, like you know, okay,
Speaker 1: peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in a big house.
Speaker 1: This this is like a very conservative framing of this. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean this is this is the Chinese equivalent of
Speaker 1: two point five kids in a white picket fence. And
Speaker 1: it has all of this sort of associated gender politics
Speaker 1: and class politics to go along with that. And you know,
Speaker 1: and when when cow and the cows are talking about involution,
Speaker 1: what they're talking about is they literally they literally mean
Speaker 1: Chinese dignated economy, right, so that they're talking about, okay,
Speaker 1: that you have more inputs, you have labor, technology inputs,
Speaker 1: but the output for input is declining, and the only
Speaker 1: way to restore economic growth the chief prosperity is by
Speaker 1: solving a decline output by defeating the Americans. But you know,
Speaker 1: and and this this is kind of a big deal.
Speaker 1: And for a while, in sort of like twenty this
Speaker 1: this is, this is going places, but very quickly people
Speaker 1: are like, my life fucking sucks, Like I don't care
Speaker 1: about this econ ship or this, like grand national struggle
Speaker 1: against the world hedgemon, Like I care about the fact that,
Speaker 1: like my life is this incredibly pointless, ever escalating rat
Speaker 1: race with like literally no rewards. Yeah, that would that
Speaker 1: would concern me too, if that were a thing that
Speaker 1: we were capable of feeling in our country. Yeah, it's there.
Speaker 1: There's been some really funny stuff with involution where like
Speaker 1: you read accounts of it and you'll get like anthropologists
Speaker 1: going like, oh, yeah, this is this is the thing
Speaker 1: that this is the thing that's unique to China, and
Speaker 1: it's like have have you worked a job in in
Speaker 1: the US? Like, but you know involution, you know what
Speaker 1: happens to it over over the course of sort of
Speaker 1: it goes from being the general you know, it goes
Speaker 1: it goes from being this thing that's about like very
Speaker 1: specific like technical industrial arguments about industrial policy too. Is
Speaker 1: when one anthropologists put it, quote the experience of being
Speaker 1: locked in competition that one ultimately knows as meaningless. And
Speaker 1: so people are, yeah, we could we couldn't imagine that
Speaker 1: this is yeah, and it's you know, and people people
Speaker 1: start talking about finding individual solutions to of this, and
Speaker 1: so you know, then this is things like working last
Speaker 1: moving to lower tier city is getting less protgious jobs. Um,
Speaker 1: but you know, and I want to think about this
Speaker 1: again because this this is a really interesting thing where
Speaker 1: you have a very incredibly right wing, nationalistic and sort
Speaker 1: of like like middle class like nostalgia kind of like
Speaker 1: you know, like Milt aggressive foreign policy thing and then
Speaker 1: it just flips. And and part of how it flips
Speaker 1: and this is a part of the story that is
Speaker 1: almost completely ignored, But I think it's really important. Do
Speaker 1: you guys know about this? The YouTuber named leads It.
Speaker 1: She she's the biggest Chinese YouTuber. She has sixteen million followers,
Speaker 1: and most of her followers are not on YouTube because
Speaker 1: you know, YouTube like blocked by the firewall. But she
Speaker 1: has she has fifty five million followers on the sort
Speaker 1: of Chinese version of TikTok, and yeah, she has across
Speaker 1: the world. She has a hundred million followers, right. She
Speaker 1: she's she's one of the biggest media stars in the world.
Speaker 1: And her origins are kind of unclear. The like official
Speaker 1: biography basically says that like when she was twelve, instead
Speaker 1: of going to high school, she's being a waitress and
Speaker 1: then she had to like you know, but she she
Speaker 1: she'd gone to the city and then she had to
Speaker 1: return to Revels to take care of her grandma. And
Speaker 1: she makes these videos that are these like very soft
Speaker 1: and calming videos or like calming music of her going
Speaker 1: into the woods and like harvesting materials and making fires
Speaker 1: out of logs and like cooking things. Okay, and it's
Speaker 1: it's it's just like it's you know, it's it's very
Speaker 1: much this this really utopianism. There's there's basically no industrial
Speaker 1: technology like Cottage Corp returned to Nature. Yeah. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people who watched it like that
Speaker 1: just to like soothe them after a day of work.
Speaker 1: Like see somebody like dig a cave and turn it
Speaker 1: into like a bath or something using just hand tools
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, And there's it's interesting that this kind
Speaker 1: of it's almost like turned into a sub genre. But
Speaker 1: she's by far the biggest like version of this. And
Speaker 1: you know, so she she gets picked up by a
Speaker 1: media company and from goes viral. And you know it's
Speaker 1: interesting because so she's doing this because so she she
Speaker 1: has to go back to take care of her grandma,
Speaker 1: and so she like opens a store and she's trying
Speaker 1: to support herself but and like her grandma by opening
Speaker 1: this store, and so the videos were like a way
Speaker 1: to promote the store. And then you know, now she
Speaker 1: has a hundred million followers and she she gets adopted
Speaker 1: as this kind of like like national culture ambassador, I
Speaker 1: guess by the state. Sure, And and it's just you know,
Speaker 1: so there's nothing overtly political about these videos at all, right,
Speaker 1: which is especially offering and like trying to sell is
Speaker 1: this you know, this like fantasy of retreat from industrial
Speaker 1: majority into world life. And I think it's really easy
Speaker 1: to look at that esthetic and go like this is
Speaker 1: basically fascist, Like this is rejecting majority embraced here issues.
Speaker 1: Some people online when they see that immediately sees after
Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, it's eco fascist, Yes that yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, and I think like that
Speaker 1: interpretation I think is actually a lot of y I
Speaker 1: got picked up by the Chinese, by Chinese media companies
Speaker 1: and then like sort of by the Chinese state because
Speaker 1: you know, like having an actual positive utopian image of
Speaker 1: rural life is politically useul with them, and something that's
Speaker 1: like not hasn't been true since like we've had this
Speaker 1: for a long time. Yeah, well no, and I think
Speaker 1: I would say this this. I think this is the
Speaker 1: thing that's different in China is that there hasn't been
Speaker 1: like a positive conception of rural life really since I
Speaker 1: guess the greatly forwards and then are like there there
Speaker 1: were some people in the Cultural Revolution, but then they
Speaker 1: actually went there and we're like, oh god, this sucks,
Speaker 1: and so you know, so they need a new one.
Speaker 1: They come up with this. But you know, the thing
Speaker 1: that's different about China than the US is that China's
Speaker 1: maket worker population like is almost the entire size of
Speaker 1: the population of the US. I mean it's it's like
Speaker 1: two seventy million people, right, I mean it's it's enormous
Speaker 1: and a huge number of these people, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: some of these people are going from like city to city.
Speaker 1: You're like town of town, but a lot of these
Speaker 1: people are coming from from rural villages into cities. And
Speaker 1: you know, I mean these are this is this is
Speaker 1: the background of the Chinese workforce. And like these people
Speaker 1: like they see their family once a year because you know,
Speaker 1: like they can't afford to go home, so they go
Speaker 1: home once a year for New Year's because they get
Speaker 1: some time, often they come back and and this is
Speaker 1: where you know, like these videos are obvious fantasy, but
Speaker 1: you know, they suggest an alternative to work in the
Speaker 1: capitalist city that's sort of plausible, you know, especially if
Speaker 1: you come from rural village. And this is where this
Speaker 1: whole thing completely backfires on the Chinese ruling class. And
Speaker 1: you know, because this this, this this cowisted involution discourse
Speaker 1: is about diffuse with this style of rural rural utopianism
Speaker 1: into a movement that is going to shake the foundation
Speaker 1: of work itself. But first, but first, ads again also
Speaker 1: not connecting to anything. We're talking Conever, why Garrison, don't
Speaker 1: even bring that up. There's no needs, there's no reason
Speaker 1: for people to think about about the fact that about that.
Speaker 1: Don't think anyway, here's about ads. Yeah, think about the
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway Patrol primary sponsors off it could happen here.
Speaker 1: If it happens to you, you'll want the Washington State
Speaker 1: Highway Patrol the border. It's so funny. Anyway, we're trying
Speaker 1: to but I think it's we're working on it. People.
Speaker 1: I think it's hilarious. Yeah, please don't please don't join
Speaker 1: the Washington State Highway Patrol. Ah, we're back, and I
Speaker 1: don't know about y'all, but I thought I knew what
Speaker 1: I was talking about, and I after those ads, I
Speaker 1: am fully Washington State Highway Patrol build. I'm on board.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Yeah. In April, a guy in Chinese
Speaker 1: social media makes a post and I'm just gonna so, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read this post because it's kind of
Speaker 1: short and it rules. I haven't been working for two years.
Speaker 1: I have just been hanging around, and I don't see
Speaker 1: anything wrong with This pressure mainly comes from the generation
Speaker 1: with your peers and the values of the older generation.
Speaker 1: These pressures keep popping up, but we don't have to
Speaker 1: abide by these norms. I can live like Diogenes and
Speaker 1: sleep in a wooden bucket week so I can live
Speaker 1: like Heracletus in a cave thinking about logos. Since this
Speaker 1: land has never had a school thought that upholds human subjectivity,
Speaker 1: I can develop one of my own. Lying down is
Speaker 1: my philosophical movements. Only through lying flat can humans become
Speaker 1: the measure of all things based. Oh my god, that's
Speaker 1: the best. I love that. Can I talk about Diogenes now?
Speaker 1: So my my man, Diogenes is he's from this trend
Speaker 1: in Greek philosophical thought during kind of the high period
Speaker 1: of Greek civilization, where a bunch of things come out
Speaker 1: of it. You kind of get anarchism, Western anarchism out
Speaker 1: of it, You kind of get you get elements of
Speaker 1: like Puritan culture from it, because there are a lot
Speaker 1: of them are very much anti like the pleasures of
Speaker 1: sex and like anything pleasing, and like you don't you
Speaker 1: don't do anything that feels good because then you become
Speaker 1: dependent on it. Like there's a whole bunch of ship
Speaker 1: going on um. And Diogenes was like one of the
Speaker 1: one of the first motherfucker's who were kind of playing
Speaker 1: around in this in this philosoph tropical space. And when
Speaker 1: he gets into so his early life is his dad
Speaker 1: is uh kind of a grifter. It sounds like we
Speaker 1: know that he got in trouble. He and his dad
Speaker 1: got exiled for debasing currency, which could be as simple
Speaker 1: as they were watering down for lack of a better term,
Speaker 1: like the gold or silver and currency with less precious
Speaker 1: metals and hiding it in order to make a profit,
Speaker 1: right and like keep the extra gold that could be
Speaker 1: what they were doing it also could have been like
Speaker 1: it could have been political, because some people who were
Speaker 1: doing this in Sinope, I think is the city which
Speaker 1: is now in Turkey, we're doing it for political reasons.
Speaker 1: We don't really know why. But there's actual documented archaeological
Speaker 1: evidence of this, including right around the time he would
Speaker 1: have been a child, we found from that period a
Speaker 1: cash of debased gold and silver coins that had been destroyed,
Speaker 1: so someone had like realized they've been debased and destroyed
Speaker 1: them so they couldn't be used. So there's evidence. Anyway,
Speaker 1: he and his dad get exiled, which means from an
Speaker 1: early stage he goes from being somewhat of means, if
Speaker 1: your dad's making the currency, you're not probably not like
Speaker 1: a poor family um. And then they get kicked out
Speaker 1: of their city state and they're like kind of stateless,
Speaker 1: and so Diogenes evolves over time and like gets into philosophy.
Speaker 1: He tries to there's this I always forget the name
Speaker 1: of the guy that he he loved it first, but
Speaker 1: there's this philosopher who's like, you know, this cynical like
Speaker 1: that's the school of thought he comes from. He's like
Speaker 1: a cynic um that Diogenes really wants to study from,
Speaker 1: and the guy like assaults him as as Diogenes is like, hey, man,
Speaker 1: I want to learn from you. Like he like hits
Speaker 1: him or something. This keeps happening, and eventually he's like
Speaker 1: this guy is like why do you keep doing this?
Speaker 1: And Diogenes is like, you have something I can learn from? Uh,
Speaker 1: And so I don't really care what you do to me.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna keep persisting. And so he becomes
Speaker 1: this guy's student, YadA YadA. And the guy who he
Speaker 1: becomes the student of is like kind of a poser
Speaker 1: because he's talking about like we need to give up
Speaker 1: you know, these kind of like pleasures of of like
Speaker 1: civilized life and and return to a more simple time
Speaker 1: and like not enjoy all of these, you know, the
Speaker 1: benefits of wealth. But he like he's also a rich
Speaker 1: guy and he doesn't give up his money, and Diogenes
Speaker 1: is like poor as hell um and stays that way um.
Speaker 1: And so he becomes famous for he goes to Athens
Speaker 1: and he becomes famous for a bunch of like troll
Speaker 1: ship we don't actually have. He wrote like ten books,
Speaker 1: we don't have any of them, so we don't actually
Speaker 1: like know what he actually wrote in his philosophy. We
Speaker 1: just have stories from other philosophers and it's all Diogenes
Speaker 1: being a fucking troll. So like um on one occasion,
Speaker 1: he one of his big things was he believed that
Speaker 1: people that if if something was an acceptable behavior, it
Speaker 1: was an acceptable behavior everywhere, right, And so the start
Speaker 1: of this was in in Athens, you were supposed to
Speaker 1: go buy your food in the market, but you weren't
Speaker 1: supposed to eat it there. That was like considered rude,
Speaker 1: like like like like kind of obscene almost, and Diogenes
Speaker 1: would like get food and then usually by begging, because
Speaker 1: he was that was the way he got everything. He
Speaker 1: had no money. He would like get food and he
Speaker 1: would eat it right in the middle of the market,
Speaker 1: and everybody was like, that's disgusting, and Diogenes would be like, well,
Speaker 1: if it's okay for me to eat, it must be
Speaker 1: okay for me to eat here. That's great. Diogenes took
Speaker 1: it a little bit further than that, because yeah, I
Speaker 1: can yeah, I can see a few ways you can
Speaker 1: take this. He extended that too, if it's fine for
Speaker 1: me to urinator ship, it's fine for me to do
Speaker 1: and he defended himself masturbating and well we can get
Speaker 1: people in public as if this is okay for me
Speaker 1: to do in my bedroom, why can't I do this here? Right? Um,
Speaker 1: it's very like he's he's he's a troll um Diogenes,
Speaker 1: and he's also like again, the stories we have him
Speaker 1: is he is like uber an aesthetic, so like at
Speaker 1: one point, for a long time, the only thing he
Speaker 1: owns is a wooden bowl that's his cup and and
Speaker 1: for his food. And then according to you know legend,
Speaker 1: he sees this poor peasant child drinking from like cupped
Speaker 1: hands and he throws away his bowl and he's really
Speaker 1: angry and he's like, god, damn it, I spent all
Speaker 1: this effort carrying around something useless, like I said, ship
Speaker 1: in my hands. He's he's a very entertaining character and
Speaker 1: a very like yeah, he's absolutely an eugle um and
Speaker 1: he's yeah, he's just kind of like an endearing piece
Speaker 1: of shit, is like his the idea you get, but
Speaker 1: also like smarter than I mean, because because fundamentally what
Speaker 1: Diogenes is doing is he's he's saying, like, hey, all
Speaker 1: this stuff that we think is important and good about
Speaker 1: our culture and and like valuable. What if it wasn't,
Speaker 1: what if none of it matters. He's like he's provoking
Speaker 1: the thick and he's he's big into like one of
Speaker 1: his his Like the things he comes back to a
Speaker 1: lot is that like dogs are clearly happier than us
Speaker 1: and like better creatures than us, so we should just
Speaker 1: seek to be like dogs. Um. And one of the
Speaker 1: ways he might have died is getting bitten by a
Speaker 1: dog and his bike kidding infected. We don't really know
Speaker 1: how he died. Um. You ever thing about Theogenese, This
Speaker 1: guy fucking hates rich people. Oh he's he's and he's
Speaker 1: very funny about it. So Alexander the Great apocryphal lee
Speaker 1: Maybe that's probably never happened. But the story is that
Speaker 1: Alexander the Great comes to Athens, you know, while he's
Speaker 1: on his his blitz through conquering the known world, and
Speaker 1: finds Diogenes. Alexander the Great was like raised by Aristotle, right,
Speaker 1: so he knows his philosophy. Guys, like he's he's he's
Speaker 1: seeking Diogenes out because he's a fan of this dude,
Speaker 1: probably through stories that were told to him. In the
Speaker 1: same way that like I'm telling them to you now.
Speaker 1: So he like comes up to Diogenes and he's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm Alexander the Great. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1: If I couldn't be Alexander the Great, I would want
Speaker 1: to be Diogenes um. And Diogenes response, well, if I
Speaker 1: couldn't be Diogenes, I would just want to be Diogenes,
Speaker 1: which is a fucking flex again but probably never happened.
Speaker 1: But like, I want to, I want to read this
Speaker 1: meme that Garrison sent me because it happens. It's absolutely
Speaker 1: the perfect Ryptian of what what this whole thing is
Speaker 1: sort of about. So okay, this is me. The philosopher
Speaker 1: Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was
Speaker 1: seen by the philosopher or a process gust name Aristippus,
Speaker 1: who he doesn't matter, some dead Greek guy who's about
Speaker 1: to get absolutely destroyed. He's living comfortably like flattering the king.
Speaker 1: Aristipis says, if you would learn to be subservient to
Speaker 1: the king, you would not have to live on lentils.
Speaker 1: Diogenes should flied, learn to live on lentils, and you
Speaker 1: will not have to be subservient to the king. Oh,
Speaker 1: all sorts of based ship like that. My favorite So
Speaker 1: our guy Plato is like is like trying to determine,
Speaker 1: trying to define like a human in the simplest way possible. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: like the Platonic idea. And he was, so he comes
Speaker 1: to the inclusion that like, well, it's a it's a
Speaker 1: it's a it's an unwinged biped um, and Diogenes supposedly
Speaker 1: goes grabs a plucked chicken and says, behold a man,
Speaker 1: like I found a dude. Rules um. He would he
Speaker 1: would famously walk around town in broad daylight with like
Speaker 1: a what do you call it, like a lantern, like
Speaker 1: looking around and people like, what are you looking for?
Speaker 1: It's like I'm looking for a man? He like, look
Speaker 1: at a dude, and you're like, I'm looking for a man.
Speaker 1: And as it is to say, like, none of you
Speaker 1: motherfucker's are people like you all think that you're human beings,
Speaker 1: but you're really just pieces of ship. It's just an
Speaker 1: amazing asshole. Sorry that that we should move back to
Speaker 1: anti work, but that's yeah, yeah, but and this is
Speaker 1: this is the funny that both both both American and
Speaker 1: Chinese like anti work people. Both fucking love Diogenes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, very popular on our slash anti work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, and the thing I was reading about
Speaker 1: the like, you know, learn to live on lentils and
Speaker 1: you'll never like after such a game by King that
Speaker 1: that's a lot of what lying down becomes. So very rapidly,
Speaker 1: this whole thing spreads into this like really it's a
Speaker 1: sort of astounding, you know, it starts out of the
Speaker 1: me and it spreads incredibly quickly, and the CCP gets
Speaker 1: like really really mad about this. Um so, so it's
Speaker 1: like it's this. This starts in April, right, and in
Speaker 1: May there's they have this like enormous media blitz where
Speaker 1: like like the party is like outlet basically, and Guandong
Speaker 1: publishes like a four page long attack on the concept
Speaker 1: of lying down, like the cc the end of the
Speaker 1: newspapers everywhere published this stuff. Like the CCP like bands
Speaker 1: term la wee chat. Yeah, and it's funny because it's
Speaker 1: like if they do this, but it's too late, like
Speaker 1: it's yeah, and you know, so, so part part of
Speaker 1: a lying down is is about, you know, you have
Speaker 1: this incredibly fast paced, intense work culture, you have involution,
Speaker 1: you're working more and more and you're getting nothing out
Speaker 1: of it. The lion flat is just going no, like
Speaker 1: you just lie down, you refuse to work. But it's
Speaker 1: it's it's also it's more than that. And I think
Speaker 1: this is this goes back to the sort of broader
Speaker 1: conception of anti work. So on one of the slogans
Speaker 1: of this movement is don't bribe property, don't buy a car,
Speaker 1: don't get married, don't have children, and don't consume. And
Speaker 1: you know that the the last part of this is implied
Speaker 1: is don't work. And you know, there's a lot sort
Speaker 1: of going on here. I mean, you have you know,
Speaker 1: it's not just sort of a critique of like we
Speaker 1: work too hard. It's about you know, it's about the
Speaker 1: sort of fall system. It's about the sort of patriarchy
Speaker 1: involved in this. It's about this sort of like force
Speaker 1: capitalist consumption. It's about like, you know, the fact that
Speaker 1: like literally a quarter of Chinese of China's economy or
Speaker 1: Chinese GDP is like all this real estate bullshit that
Speaker 1: everyone knows who is going to collapse and even when
Speaker 1: it gets built like sucks. Thank god we don't have
Speaker 1: anything like that here. Yeah, I know, it's great It's
Speaker 1: one of one of the fun things about learned histories.
Speaker 1: You can just watch every country do exactly the same
Speaker 1: thing with their housing market, like Japan do it. It's
Speaker 1: like it's great, It's just like you also you think
Speaker 1: this will work? What what what extra fun thing is
Speaker 1: you get to watch every country do the same thing
Speaker 1: with farms and it always ended the same anyway. Yes,
Speaker 1: So there's there's a lot of you know, in order
Speaker 1: to sort of like facilitate this, you know, you get
Speaker 1: back to the Diogenes, So a lot of it what's
Speaker 1: happening is people sharing tips about how to make the
Speaker 1: cheapest food you can possibly survive on so you don't
Speaker 1: have to work, and so you know, and people the
Speaker 1: guy who wrote the Diogenes post like he spends thirty
Speaker 1: dollars a month and he does this by only eating
Speaker 1: dried ramen and eggs and like rice. Yeah, yeah, on
Speaker 1: the way to do it. This is like the most
Speaker 1: extreme example. I actually, I don't even think it is
Speaker 1: the most atreme example. A lot of people. One of
Speaker 1: the things that happens a lot is a bunch of
Speaker 1: people just like have left their jobs to become monks.
Speaker 1: This this is like a whole thing Buddhist, like honestly,
Speaker 1: like absolutely, And I used to live in a place
Speaker 1: in the middle of fucking nowhere, one of the most
Speaker 1: like isolated places I've ever lived that like had power
Speaker 1: um and one of the people who was like by neighbor,
Speaker 1: they were within several miles of us, was a monastery.
Speaker 1: This is in the United States, and like I went
Speaker 1: there once too because I heard they made good wine
Speaker 1: to try and get some of their wine, and like
Speaker 1: none of them would answer the door. I could see
Speaker 1: them inside all staring at me. They didn't do ship
Speaker 1: and my my overwhelming thought was like, yeah, that seems
Speaker 1: like a pretty good way to do it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: see why you guys have picked this life. It was
Speaker 1: also during the election back from the r n C
Speaker 1: and the d n C and was like, yeah, that
Speaker 1: seems smarter than what I'm doing. Yeah. So there's a
Speaker 1: lot of you know, yeah, that'd be the stream example,
Speaker 1: like if people going to become monks. But like one
Speaker 1: of the things that's happening a lot is again, you know,
Speaker 1: China hasn't known its macrotworker population, and people are just
Speaker 1: like fuck this, I'm going back to my village, and
Speaker 1: so and you know, and this is you know, this
Speaker 1: this this, this is where they really screwed up with
Speaker 1: the YouTube stuff because you know, people were people, you know,
Speaker 1: they were gambling that that you know, you could just
Speaker 1: sell this as an aesthetic, and you know, you can't
Speaker 1: sell it as an aesthetic like Chinese TikTok has this
Speaker 1: integrated thing in it. Were like, if if you plug
Speaker 1: like something to buy it, like you can like click
Speaker 1: it and it'll just it'll take you like to a
Speaker 1: link like to to to to the thing it's selling,
Speaker 1: you know. And so yeah, they don't make a norse
Speaker 1: amount of money on this, but you know, the the
Speaker 1: the other side of that sword is a bunch of
Speaker 1: people were like, I don't have to work this Like
Speaker 1: I don't have to work in a city. I can
Speaker 1: just go home. Yeah, and you know, and you know,
Speaker 1: and you know, so you know, as you're talking about
Speaker 1: the antiwork stuff, it's not actually possible for a lot
Speaker 1: of people to leave their jobs. So the solution to
Speaker 1: this was there there's a culture that developed called petting fish,
Speaker 1: which and but but before you talking about petting fish,
Speaker 1: you said something about uh, plugging things on TikTok, and
Speaker 1: you know, who you know, you know, like plugging like advertisements,
Speaker 1: and you know who also plugs plugs advertisements? Chris, Oh no,
Speaker 1: is it us? But our new sponsor is the Joe
Speaker 1: Rogan Experience, brought to you by Honda Honda Drive a Car,
Speaker 1: Do Fascism? Honda? Really? Yeah, Honda Garrison. Look, we don't
Speaker 1: We're not nearly a big enough podcast to get fucking
Speaker 1: to get a Toyota ad Are you crazy? Yeah? That's
Speaker 1: what we can dream big. Yeah, I mean that is
Speaker 1: the dream to sell Toyota's. I mean we could become
Speaker 1: used car salesman in the valley. All right, here's that
Speaker 1: ah back, cut that head and fish handle it. Keep
Speaker 1: it all in baby. Yeah. So there's there's all this
Speaker 1: thing called the petting fish, which is like Chinese slack
Speaker 1: off culture, and you know, somt of people sharing tips
Speaker 1: ab how to slack off at work, and it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of the equivalent like I love that it's called
Speaker 1: petting fish. And then also yeah, it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: the Chinese equivalent of like boss makes a dollar, I
Speaker 1: make a dime. That's why should company time. So people
Speaker 1: do just a lot of like they have a lot
Speaker 1: of like genuinely fun things they do. Like people people
Speaker 1: started putting like fake beatings on their calendars. People wouldn't
Speaker 1: bother them. They like they just like like, that's that's
Speaker 1: also that's that's that's also what I do. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the if you want to make I love
Speaker 1: the term petting fish as well, but if you want
Speaker 1: to like make it sound cool. They're waging an insurgency
Speaker 1: from within capitalism by by by trying to take resources
Speaker 1: away from their employers, um without being spotted. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a thing in volume one of Capital about
Speaker 1: this that I was like, oh, I could pull this up,
Speaker 1: and then I was like, that is too much work.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. So I don't have
Speaker 1: the thing in volume one where he talks about struggling
Speaker 1: between about labor time. But instead you get a bunch
Speaker 1: of people like the Smike smuggling whiskey into work, taking
Speaker 1: through our lunch breaks. My favorite one actually work drink
Speaker 1: at work, especially if your nurse, oh boy, you probably
Speaker 1: killed about fifty people. This is gonna be crossed fingers crossed.
Speaker 1: So you know how like companies all have these like
Speaker 1: these really annoying like mindfulness fitness things. So one of
Speaker 1: these people started doing was okay, so you know, thinking
Speaker 1: like you have to drink eight hour, eight times a day.
Speaker 1: So they would set these alarms that's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: have to go drink my water. And so like every
Speaker 1: like every like fifty minutes or something, they just go
Speaker 1: up and like spend twenty minutes getting water and they
Speaker 1: sit back down. It's like you've just eviscerated and enormous
Speaker 1: part of your work day. And and the product of this,
Speaker 1: you know, this CP is really piste off about this.
Speaker 1: And you know, you get these giant billboards to say
Speaker 1: no lying flat, no petting fish on them or something.
Speaker 1: It would have been literally incomprehensible like a year ago.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. And you know, and I think this is
Speaker 1: something you know in the U s anti work, like
Speaker 1: the actual political class kind of has been ignoring it.
Speaker 1: I mean, you see a couple of acial antists in China.
Speaker 1: She Jing Ping like made a speech. It was like,
Speaker 1: you know, you have a private speech to a bunch
Speaker 1: of hoigh people in the party, and so a part
Speaker 1: of it a printage like a month ago or something
Speaker 1: I've I've lost track of all time. But like like,
Speaker 1: like specifically in this speech that chess and Ping is
Speaker 1: making that is published in the official like theoretical journal,
Speaker 1: he's like explicitly saying like don't lie flat and saying
Speaker 1: quote happy life is earned through heart, hard work, and yeah,
Speaker 1: and he also has this this he has his ranch.
Speaker 1: But like denouncing welfare ism, which is great the communist
Speaker 1: vanguard there, Yeah, yeah, preaching the immortal science. Yeah, socialism
Speaker 1: with Chinese characteristics. Motherfucker's don't be a welfare queen. Follow
Speaker 1: It's great, you know, but it's interesting people. This is
Speaker 1: the one people are really freaked out about. Like I
Speaker 1: saw I saw like an American writer about this, who
Speaker 1: you know, They wrote like an article about this whole thing,
Speaker 1: and then they were like this is gonna this is
Speaker 1: gonna cause inflation. It's like, this is gonna be the
Speaker 1: driver of what people just use the word inflation to
Speaker 1: mean whatever scary thing they want. Yeah, well they're they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this will this will increase wages and that will lead
Speaker 1: to inflation and we'll get the seventies again. And I'm like, God,
Speaker 1: maybe get a tallow disco again. Did you ever think
Speaker 1: of that guy that we that were are reserves of
Speaker 1: a tallow disco are critically low. Do you wonder what
Speaker 1: a tallow disco is? No idea, that's a shame. All right,
Speaker 1: let's continue what what what type of like is there
Speaker 1: is there like any like you said, this kind of
Speaker 1: stuff started to like move leftwards. Is there any like
Speaker 1: actual like leftist organizing in these types of places. So
Speaker 1: so this is the thing I was getting to, which
Speaker 1: is that, like, you know, people are starting to do
Speaker 1: reading groups. But the problem, the problem with leftist organizing
Speaker 1: in China is that, you know, so state policy in
Speaker 1: the past three years has been like if you poke
Speaker 1: your head above ground, you get arrested. So you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, for example, there was there was a strike
Speaker 1: at Jasick and you know, a bunch of student groups
Speaker 1: who've been organizing for a long time like try to
Speaker 1: do alldrety with it, and they all got arrested. The
Speaker 1: people who are people who let the strike got arrested.
Speaker 1: All that the students who are doing is ald already
Speaker 1: got arrested. People like people got arrested for like like
Speaker 1: dancing with like university students got arrested for like dancing
Speaker 1: with the people who were like cleaning the floors. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like the yeah, like it's it's incredible and like, you know,
Speaker 1: and the other thing that you can see about this
Speaker 1: was so so for example, there was there was a
Speaker 1: guy doing like delivery driver organizing. It was kind of weird.
Speaker 1: He was like kind of an entrepreneur kind of doing
Speaker 1: delivery driver organizing. Like he got arrested. And then you know,
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks later this people like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're gonna like do things to improve the conditions of
Speaker 1: of of delivery drivers, and you know, who knows if
Speaker 1: that's going to happen. But like, you know, basically like
Speaker 1: any anyone out for some reason that the people in
Speaker 1: the tech sector have been able to get away with
Speaker 1: more for reasons that are probably class based, and I
Speaker 1: think then take them seriously in the way they do
Speaker 1: with students to factory workers. But you know, and actually
Speaker 1: I mean the fact that the tech workers like kind
Speaker 1: of recently like that there's a tech worker thing calling
Speaker 1: for like like democratic control of production, which is wild.
Speaker 1: But other than those guys like you can't you know,
Speaker 1: you can't stick your head up, you get flattened. So
Speaker 1: this has sort of been the result of this, which
Speaker 1: is this, like you know, the sort of the like
Speaker 1: lying flat is this. You know, it's this mass decentralized
Speaker 1: movements that you know, there's there's no one to hit
Speaker 1: with a hammer, and you know, and and I think, like, okay,
Speaker 1: so one of one of the other quotes that's that's
Speaker 1: been going around about lying flat is it's it's a poem.
Speaker 1: It doesn't poem as well in English, but this, this
Speaker 1: is the best we've got. Lying flat is to not
Speaker 1: bow down. Lying flat is to not kneel. Lying flat
Speaker 1: is to stand up horizontally. Lying flat is a straight spine.
Speaker 1: And so you know what was basically happening here is
Speaker 1: is it's a combination of the tendencies you see in
Speaker 1: the US, where you know, a bunch of people terrible jobs,
Speaker 1: realizing that everything is pointless. And then also this is
Speaker 1: a way you can, like, this is the way you
Speaker 1: can like your boss without like the police showing up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so there's there's some interesting like political stuff. So there,
Speaker 1: there's there, there's there's there's if if you look at
Speaker 1: the doc, there's there's a bunch of memes here because
Speaker 1: they're great. So there's there's been a thing with these
Speaker 1: people talking about how people are leaks, which they're like
Speaker 1: their leaks, they're harvested over and over again and they're
Speaker 1: being exploited and like the plants, yeah, like like leaks
Speaker 1: like yeah, you eat. And so they have this thing.
Speaker 1: It's a leaks that life flat cannot be so easily
Speaker 1: harvested and it's just like a knife go like try
Speaker 1: like a machette, like trying to swing at a bunch
Speaker 1: of leaks, but leaks are flats, so they can't hit them.
Speaker 1: And see what I like, I like all of this. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's you know, and so and so
Speaker 1: what the product of this is that yeah, like this this, this,
Speaker 1: this has this stuff has actually been effective enough that
Speaker 1: the CCP, like you know, I mean the CCP is
Speaker 1: is taking it seriously, but you know, there's not much
Speaker 1: they can do about it because like if someone's just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go from a job that's really high
Speaker 1: stress to one that's less high stress, like what are
Speaker 1: you're gonna are you just gonna arrest them? Like what
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? And so this yeah, this,
Speaker 1: this has been building for a while now, and I
Speaker 1: don't know who who knows exactly like where it's going
Speaker 1: to go, but it's it's it's already you know. It's
Speaker 1: something that people can do as an individual in a
Speaker 1: place where organized political action is impossible in a way
Speaker 1: such that you know that their individual actions have a
Speaker 1: collective effect, but one that can't be just you know,
Speaker 1: pounded down. Yeah, I mean, it is certainly interesting to
Speaker 1: see two completely separate, like anti work style movements around
Speaker 1: basically around the same same exact time, with the same
Speaker 1: exact points, if you're totally different languages. If you're someone
Speaker 1: who's interested in massive global revolutionary change, this should probably
Speaker 1: be a thing that you are looking at and studying
Speaker 1: and thinking a lot about. Because perhaps while we're arguing
Speaker 1: about ship that people started talking about in the eighteen seventies, this,
Speaker 1: this might be a better thing to do than than that, uh,
Speaker 1: because because it's it seems like there's some potential here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, I mean, you know, if if
Speaker 1: if you if you know, any any any any actual
Speaker 1: revolutionary project that makes the world better is going to
Speaker 1: have to be international. And that's been you know, that
Speaker 1: that that that that's been the bane of all revolutionary
Speaker 1: movements forever but you know, okay, so we have you
Speaker 1: know that we we have something to Chinese. The American
Speaker 1: working class agrees on, which is Diogenes is based in
Speaker 1: work sucks. Yeah, So as you go forward into your
Speaker 1: life this week, um, take a page from Diogenes as
Speaker 1: his book and got on the people ship on the
Speaker 1: floor of a free people or yeah, if free people
Speaker 1: are in h and M go walk into one and
Speaker 1: just just just go absolutely ruin that tile. I mean,
Speaker 1: fuck it. This is why my my my biggest political
Speaker 1: advice to friends who has always been learned to run fast,
Speaker 1: because if you learn to run fast, you can do
Speaker 1: so many more fun things in a store and then
Speaker 1: run fast that it's done right. The problem is that
Speaker 1: a lot of people like who who want to do
Speaker 1: this can't run fast enough. So learn to run fast
Speaker 1: to do this. There, It's like Mouse said, all political
Speaker 1: power comes from being able to ship really fast and
Speaker 1: the doors of a free people. Just get that out
Speaker 1: of there. The immortal science. Look, I think I think
Speaker 1: I think we should leave with with the real immortal science,
Speaker 1: the the immortal words of a skeleton from the share zone.
Speaker 1: Just walk out. You can leave work, social things, movie
Speaker 1: home class dentist, close shops to fancy weed store cops.
Speaker 1: If you're quick, friendships, if it sucks, hit the bricks,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, as as some comedian who I can't remember
Speaker 1: now said, always have an exit plan like that, that
Speaker 1: that should be your thought for everything everything in the world.
Speaker 1: Hit the fucking bricks, Get out anyway, Get out of
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Speaker 1: We need everything you've got Fast Waiting on Reparations we
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Speaker 1: We fight for the people because they got us in
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Speaker 1: Dick It Happen Here, podcast about things falling apart from
Speaker 1: what you can do about it. My name is Christopher Wong,
Speaker 1: and today I'm gonna be talking about sabotage. But this
Speaker 1: is not the episode on sabotage that you expect. I
Speaker 1: will not be discussing, for example, the destruction of machinery,
Speaker 1: throwing monkey wrenches, slow down strikes, to the myriad of
Speaker 1: other tactics that workers have used since time immemorium to
Speaker 1: strike back at their bosses. No. Instead, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be talking about a four more common and infinitely more
Speaker 1: dangerous form of sabotage, corporate sabotage. Now, the most conficuous
Speaker 1: form of corporate sabotage is the mass destruction of a
Speaker 1: corporation's own products. The fashion company Burberry, for example, destroyed
Speaker 1: three hundred and seventy million dollars off its own product
Speaker 1: in one year alone. Louis Vutton and Chanel also systematically
Speaker 1: destroy their own sold stock every year, joining H and
Speaker 1: M and literally lighting their own sold products on fire
Speaker 1: in order to prevent anyone from using them. Quote business insider, Rieschamont,
Speaker 1: the owner of Cadley vont Blanc, destroyed more than four
Speaker 1: million pounds of watches over a two year period after
Speaker 1: an excess in goods in the Asian markets. Nicki has
Speaker 1: also admitted that a New York store slashed unsold trainers
Speaker 1: before throwing them away, and last year, an Urban Outfits
Speaker 1: employee said he was instructed to pour green paints on
Speaker 1: the unsold stock. These, of course, are only the stories
Speaker 1: that evaded into the press, and this behavior is by
Speaker 1: no means limited to high fashion grocery stores routinely throw
Speaker 1: away enormous quantities of unsold goods, and when communities realized
Speaker 1: they could feed people in need by taking the still
Speaker 1: good products from grocery store dumpstairs, the stories began to
Speaker 1: destroy their food intentionally. But these acts of destruction, as
Speaker 1: callous and horrifically greedy as they are, are by no
Speaker 1: means the extent of corporate sabotage. To explain I turned
Speaker 1: to the work of the economist Thorston Veblen. Feblin is
Speaker 1: perhaps best known today for the theory of conspicuous consumption,
Speaker 1: but he wrote extensively on corporate sabotage in the first
Speaker 1: part of The Engineers and the Price System, a work
Speaker 1: that isn't broadly ignored even by his followers. Feblen rode
Speaker 1: a section called on the Nature and Uses of Sabotage
Speaker 1: from that work. Writers and speakers who dilate on the
Speaker 1: militarious exploits of the nation's businessmen will not commonly allude
Speaker 1: to this voluminous, running administration of sabotage, this conscientious withdrawal
Speaker 1: of efficiency that goes into their ordinary day's work. We
Speaker 1: are not used to thinking of the ordinary work of
Speaker 1: a corporation being sabotage. But for Veblen there was no
Speaker 1: other explanation from what he was seeing. In the wake
Speaker 1: of World War One, there was an enormous explosion and unemployment,
Speaker 1: an enormous need on half of the population. But even
Speaker 1: as the unemployed begged to be let in to create
Speaker 1: the products that could build the needs of their fellow humans,
Speaker 1: business owners steadfastly refused to open their factories. As Veblen explained,
Speaker 1: but for reasons of business expediency, it is impossible to
Speaker 1: let these idle plants and idle workmen go to work,
Speaker 1: that is to say, for reasons of insufficient profit to
Speaker 1: the businessmen interested, or in other words, for reasons of
Speaker 1: insufficient income to the vested interests which controlled the staple
Speaker 1: industries and so regulate the output of product. Feblun was
Speaker 1: not alone in observing these are similar conditions. John Maynard Keynes,
Speaker 1: writing during the depression, observed newly precisely the same thing.
Speaker 1: For Canes, the solution simply was to have the government
Speaker 1: step into increased demand. But for Veblen dismissed the core
Speaker 1: of the problem. The real problem was at a core
Speaker 1: of absentee owners had the ability to shut down the
Speaker 1: factories in the first place by simple virtue of their ownership,
Speaker 1: Feblen argued, was simply sabotage, no different from the hated
Speaker 1: strikes of the I w W that's so racked and
Speaker 1: perturbed the capitalist ruling class of his time. At least
Speaker 1: the workers could argue that they were simply fighting for
Speaker 1: a better share of what they had created. Absentee owners,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, who had no actual involvement in
Speaker 1: the production process whatsoever, simply carried out sabotage on an
Speaker 1: enormous scale in order to secure their own returns, and
Speaker 1: this was true even in times they weren't marked by
Speaker 1: massive depressions. In order to make payments to capitalists, Febuin argued,
Speaker 1: who expect a certain rate of return on their investment,
Speaker 1: corporations must maintain prices at such a level that they
Speaker 1: can meet their returns, and the only way they can
Speaker 1: do this is sabotage. For the good of business, it
Speaker 1: is necessary to curtail production of the means of life
Speaker 1: on pain of unprofitable prices, at the same time that
Speaker 1: the increasing need of all sorts of necessities of life
Speaker 1: must be met. In some passable fashion on pain of
Speaker 1: popular disturbances, as it will always come of popular distrust
Speaker 1: when they passed a limit of tolerance. The sabotage, Feblan argue,
Speaker 1: was simply the product of the price system. Any production
Speaker 1: that was too efficient would simply and inevitably be sabotaged
Speaker 1: for private gain, because in order to maintain prices that
Speaker 1: would maintain the returns of investors, it was necessary when
Speaker 1: sure that production never became too efficient to produce too
Speaker 1: many goods. Feplin used as his example the twentieth century
Speaker 1: post Office, but we could just as easily point to
Speaker 1: Trump sabotaging the post office in a dual bid to
Speaker 1: privatize the service by causing it to collapse and prevent
Speaker 1: mail and votes from being counted, as part of his
Speaker 1: attempt to win the two thousand twenty election. In their
Speaker 1: book Capitalist Power, Condis Shimshawan Bickler, and Jonathan Needson take
Speaker 1: Feplin's argument and expand on it, noting that capitalism, far
Speaker 1: from encouraging productivity at large, makes things inefficient on purpose.
Speaker 1: They used the example of public transportation, which is by
Speaker 1: bay essentially any measure, a significantly more efficient way of
Speaker 1: moving people around the US. As an example, in the
Speaker 1: US and the nineteen forties, a hundred electric rail lines
Speaker 1: were brought up and destroyed by car companies. Those same companies,
Speaker 1: likewise twice destroyed incredibly efficient and popular electric cars, once
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties and again in the nineteen eighties
Speaker 1: because the profit rate was lower than that of gas ours.
Speaker 1: They then set out to cause everyone to forget that
Speaker 1: they had actually done this until Elon Musk figured out
Speaker 1: a way to sell electric cars that was profitable, namely
Speaker 1: by selling himself as a brad and not the cars themselves. Now,
Speaker 1: if capitalism was simply destroying its own products in order
Speaker 1: to create Elon Musks, you could argue that the system
Speaker 1: at least produced advancements before it stopped them. But the
Speaker 1: most violent forms of sabotage are reserved for productive systems
Speaker 1: that are simultaneously efficient and outside of capitalist control together.
Speaker 1: Perhaps the best known example of this is the East
Speaker 1: British East India companies. The industrialization of the Indian textile industry,
Speaker 1: not to be outmatched by the British forebearers, American settlers
Speaker 1: and their allies in the American military sterminated the Buffalo
Speaker 1: herds of the Great Plains in an attempt to starve
Speaker 1: out the indigenous tribes that lived there. In doing so,
Speaker 1: they destroyed an enormously productive and sustainable agricultural system. It
Speaker 1: did so precisely because the system was efficient, So efficient,
Speaker 1: in fact, that it allowed indigenous tribes to repeatedly defeat
Speaker 1: the American army and defence of their lands. We are
Speaker 1: used to thinking of capitalism as the system of production,
Speaker 1: but here, amidst the fields of buffalo corpses something else
Speaker 1: entirely capitalism appearing in its true form, a system of
Speaker 1: organized sabotage. To fully untangle what this means, let us
Speaker 1: return to Veeblin. Feblin divided capitalism into two separate processes.
Speaker 1: The first he called industry. Industry, Feblin argued, has existed
Speaker 1: long before capitalism and will continue to exist long after
Speaker 1: it has bit clear and nietzs and put it quote
Speaker 1: when considered an isolation from contemporary business institutions. The principal
Speaker 1: goal of industry it's raison, according to Veblen, is the
Speaker 1: efficient production of quality goods and services for the betterment
Speaker 1: of human life. Industry is an inherently collective undertaking basis
Speaker 1: is cooperation, integration, the creation of communal knowledge that allows
Speaker 1: production and scientific advance to occur, and coordination and cooperation
Speaker 1: between people to create things for each other. Left to
Speaker 1: its own devices, industry would simply produce goods for people.
Speaker 1: It has no concern for profitability, rates of returns, or capitalization. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: capitalism is defined by private ownership. This is what Veblen
Speaker 1: calls business. Business is a system of power that extracts
Speaker 1: wealth from industry by means of sabotage production to serve
Speaker 1: human need. The basis of industry is useless to business
Speaker 1: unless it can be turned into a revenue stream. It
Speaker 1: does this by taking control of industry and as products
Speaker 1: and the restricting access to it particular and niches input it.
Speaker 1: The most important feature of private ownership is not that
Speaker 1: it enables those who own, but that it disables those
Speaker 1: who do not. Technically, anyone can get in someone else's
Speaker 1: car and drive away, but give in order to sell
Speaker 1: all of Warren Buffet shares in Berkshire hathaway. The purpose
Speaker 1: of private ownership is wholly and only an institution of exclusion.
Speaker 1: An institutional exclusion is a matter of organized power. As
Speaker 1: we can see from the genocide on the Plans. This
Speaker 1: power is no abstract force. Beblin tends to focus on
Speaker 1: the power of absentee owners to stop production, and for
Speaker 1: good reason, but business stands in the way of industry
Speaker 1: in more immediate ways too. After all, the purpose of
Speaker 1: cooperative industry is to make goods to improve our lives.
Speaker 1: And yet in between us and the proceeds that industry
Speaker 1: creates to slerve our needs, there is a cash register
Speaker 1: in a cop Even the creators of a Louis Vuitton bag,
Speaker 1: or for that matter, a tomato, have no claim on
Speaker 1: it once business takes over, and business would rather destroy
Speaker 1: it than see it fall into their hands. The famous
Speaker 1: Russian anarchist theorist Peter Kirpopkin was writing along similar lines
Speaker 1: to Feblyn just a few years before Feblen, it seems,
Speaker 1: have been exposed to anarchist ideas through its association with
Speaker 1: the industrial workers of the world. In early nineteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: it was not altogether unusual for economists to move in
Speaker 1: radical circles. The great Italian economist Piero's Raffles smuggled pens
Speaker 1: and papers to Antonio Gramsey, while Grumsey the head of
Speaker 1: the Italian Communist Party, was a prisoner with the Italian
Speaker 1: fascist regime. Grapha would later extract the writings that Crumpsy
Speaker 1: had written in prison, unleashing Grumsey's prison notebooks onto the world.
Speaker 1: But Feblin was unique even among these economists for the
Speaker 1: extent that he incorporated radical theories directly into his work.
Speaker 1: As you've seen, was his adoption of sabotage as a
Speaker 1: way of thinking about capitalism. This led Veblin to call
Speaker 1: the end of the system of what he described as
Speaker 1: vested interests and absentee owners. Febulin solution, however, which he
Speaker 1: described as a quote Soviet if technicians that would manage
Speaker 1: production for all society, leaves a lot to be desired for.
Speaker 1: So let us return to the source Perscrapotkin and the
Speaker 1: Conquest of Bread. The minds, so they represent the labor
Speaker 1: of several generations and derive their sole value from the
Speaker 1: requirements of the industry of a nation and the density
Speaker 1: of the population. The minds also belonged to the few,
Speaker 1: and these few restrict the output of coal are prevented
Speaker 1: entirely if they find more profitable investments for their capital.
Speaker 1: Machinery too, has become the exclusive property of the few.
Speaker 1: And even when a machine incontestedly represents an improvements added
Speaker 1: to the original rough invention by three or four generations
Speaker 1: of workers, it nonetheless belongs to a few honors. And
Speaker 1: if the descendants of the very inventor who constructed the
Speaker 1: first machine for lace building a century ago were to
Speaker 1: present themselves today at a lace factory and bail or
Speaker 1: Nottingham and demand their rights, they would be told hands off,
Speaker 1: this machine is not yours, and they would be shot
Speaker 1: down if they attempted to take possession of it. Here
Speaker 1: we see the competition between two different kinds of rights.
Speaker 1: On the one hand, the right of industry, the right
Speaker 1: of creativity, the right of those who produce and care
Speaker 1: for each other to be able to determine where are
Speaker 1: the proceeds of their labor go. From industry's point of view,
Speaker 1: this is to each other, to those in need, into
Speaker 1: society as a whole. On the other hand, there is
Speaker 1: the right of property, the right of men with guns
Speaker 1: to throw oysters into the ocean because it's not profitable
Speaker 1: for anyone to eat them. Capitalism has developed a myriad
Speaker 1: of iterations precisely the same principle, and the world is
Speaker 1: now infested by them. Patent trolls haunt They already fraught
Speaker 1: waters of intellectual property, buying up patents for cheap or
Speaker 1: on rare occasions, creating something themselves for the sole purpose,
Speaker 1: or preventing anyone else from using it, making money by
Speaker 1: suing anyone who dares try. Large corporations, of course, to
Speaker 1: precisely the same thing, see for example Disney's War and
Speaker 1: the concept of an anything, anything at all, falling into
Speaker 1: the public domain. The sabotage, and on this all four
Speaker 1: of our interlocutors, Veblin, Kropotkin clear needs a degree as
Speaker 1: long as private ownership exists, because sabotage is all private
Speaker 1: ownership really is. But it is not simply enough to
Speaker 1: answer corporate sabotage with their own sabotage. As Veblin pointed out,
Speaker 1: this is simply the ordinary state of affairs, enter capitalism.
Speaker 1: For Capotkin, the answer was simple. This rich endowments, painfully
Speaker 1: one builded, fashioned, or invented by our ancestors, must become
Speaker 1: common property, so that the collective interests of men may
Speaker 1: gain forbid the greatest good for all. There must be
Speaker 1: appropriation the well being of all the end expropriation. The
Speaker 1: means how precisely to go about doing such a thing
Speaker 1: as been the subject of endless debate for nearly two
Speaker 1: hundred years. And I am not arrogant enough to propose
Speaker 1: to solve the problem here, But a system where a
Speaker 1: company and prevent even the US government from attempting to
Speaker 1: produce ventilators by simply buying up the company that won
Speaker 1: the contract and refusing to fill the order to maintain
Speaker 1: the value of the ventilators it was already producing. Is
Speaker 1: a system based on nothing less than ensuring that people
Speaker 1: will die for or five percent rate of return. If
Speaker 1: we are to have any hope of stopping the ravages
Speaker 1: that climate change promises for our future, we cannot afford
Speaker 1: to be sabotaged at every step. Hey, we'll be back
Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the
Speaker 1: heat death of the universe. It could happen. Here is
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
Speaker 1: find sources for it could happen here, updated monthly at
Speaker 1: cool Zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
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