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Speaker 1: Executive producer Harris Hilton brings back the hit podcast How

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Speaker 1: Men Think, and that's good news for anyone that is

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Speaker 1: confused by men, which is basically everyone. It's real talk,

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Speaker 1: straight from the source. How Men Think podcast is exactly

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Speaker 1: what we need to figure them out. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be fun and formative and probably a bit scary at

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Speaker 1: times because we're literally going inside the minds of men.

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Speaker 1: Listen to How Men Think on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Gave us

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Speaker 1: the over attention we need. Everything you've got fast. Waiting

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Speaker 1: on Reparations would be the podcast. Tune in every Thursday

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Speaker 1: politics and wordplay. We fight for the people because they

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Speaker 1: got us in the worst way, from the Hill Cooper,

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Speaker 1: the Bomb Bay tot, from the left enclave to what

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Speaker 1: the neo kansee. Every Thursday the heavy conversation to break

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Speaker 1: us off with some break because we're waiting. Listen to

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Speaker 1: Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple

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Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Look for your

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Speaker 1: children's eyes and you will discover the true magic of

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Speaker 1: a forest. Find a forest near you and start exploring it.

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Speaker 1: Discover the forest dot Org, brought to you by the

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Speaker 1: United States Forest Service and the AD Council. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know.

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Speaker 1: This is a compiletion episode. So every episode of the

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Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and

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Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to

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Speaker 1: in a long stretch if you want. If you've been

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Speaker 1: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be nothing new here for you, but you can make

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Speaker 1: your own decisions. Hey, every buddy, America, Hey Americans, America,

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Speaker 1: How is American? That is the podcast? And that was

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Speaker 1: that was a horrible issue. That was maybe your talk

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Speaker 1: ted worst. This is it could happen here a podcast

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Speaker 1: where an incompat tent Rube Fox up starting the show

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Speaker 1: and then we talk about how things are falling apart

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Speaker 1: or how to make things not fall apart, or some

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Speaker 1: version of things in between those two facts. Yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: That's a kind of kind of not great time going

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Speaker 1: on right now. A lot of people are That was

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Speaker 1: our our second that was our b pitch for the name.

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Speaker 1: Kind of a great time going on right now. Actually,

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Speaker 1: not that far from what was say, Yeah. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's like, especially especially right now, there's there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of trials going on, m feet on stuff,

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Speaker 1: and the d our Very trial is happening, the one

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Speaker 1: about you know, un Unite the Right is going on,

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Speaker 1: and of course the kindn't have his trial as of

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Speaker 1: as of recording is um people, the jury is still

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Speaker 1: in um so no idea. What's going to be the

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Speaker 1: rest all. By the time that episode, I've actually been

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Speaker 1: like not commenting on it or neither to think about it.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing we can do about it. There's nothing you

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Speaker 1: can do. And like a lot of people, there's been

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Speaker 1: discussion about how much civil unrest there's going to be

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Speaker 1: depending on the result of the trial. I know there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of like national guards sent to Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: It's been you know, FBI door Knox and activists tombs

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Speaker 1: trying to scare people so they don't you know, go

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Speaker 1: out and ride or whatever. Discussion online the people you

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Speaker 1: know planning protests in response to in response to whatever

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Speaker 1: the result is. Um. I know just today there was

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Speaker 1: a post from I think the Ohio Proud Boys claiming

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Speaker 1: that they be sending like like uh was it hundreds

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Speaker 1: or thousands of like people armed with like a RS

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Speaker 1: to Wisconsin, or yeah, there's there's a fucking post. People

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Speaker 1: are saying, like, you should take it seriously because it's

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Speaker 1: from a Proud Boys internal chat, and it's like, we've

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Speaker 1: got three hundred guys heavily armed heading to and there's

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Speaker 1: already X number of guys there, and we're gonna kill

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Speaker 1: a lot more Communists than Kyle written House did. And YadA, YadA, YadA,

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Speaker 1: and ya. If I could give you one piece of

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Speaker 1: advice now, and who knows where the world is at

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Speaker 1: the point of which this episode drops, it's when people

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Speaker 1: talk about say when if you are at a protest

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Speaker 1: and someone starts talking about the Proud Boys and the

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Speaker 1: Proud Boys are coming or the Proud Boys are here,

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Speaker 1: if you don't immediately see uncontrovertible visual proof that they

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Speaker 1: have access to showing it, assume it's nonsense. Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is my advice as someone who has heard a

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Speaker 1: thousand times people say versions of the Proud Boys are coming. Okay,

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Speaker 1: insist on evidence or ignore it. But you know, whenever

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Speaker 1: whenever these big civil you know, unrests and types of

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Speaker 1: stuff happens, there's always an increased chance that there'll be

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Speaker 1: some kind of protest related shooting. Especially people are definitely

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Speaker 1: absolutely may happened by the time this episode drops. Especially

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Speaker 1: people are bringing guns, people people bring a fire arms

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Speaker 1: under There's been a lot of the you know, for

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Speaker 1: like the demonstrations outside the courthouse, there's been you know,

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Speaker 1: guns there. Um there's been you know, an increasing uh

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Speaker 1: in the rate of shootings at protests on the West

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Speaker 1: Coast throughout the past few months. Um, So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: be kind of talking about, you know, some things that

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Speaker 1: you can do if you're at home and you feel

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Speaker 1: competent enough in the aftermath of one of one of

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Speaker 1: these shootings. You know, if if if you know, if

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Speaker 1: a proud boy does bring a bring a gun and

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Speaker 1: shoot somebody at what you can actually do a video

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Speaker 1: If you're in a situation where you've been following something

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Speaker 1: happening all day, there's a shooting and like low quality

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Speaker 1: footage starts coming out of somebody killing someone or someone's else,

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Speaker 1: here's what to do next if you want to maybe

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Speaker 1: be a positive part of of that, of that process,

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Speaker 1: well not of that process, but of like the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of it. You know, and and because because the universe

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Speaker 1: is cruel. I I originally wrote this road right up

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Speaker 1: about the written House shooting, UM because the universe is

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Speaker 1: a cruel place, and it's gonna, you know, continue to

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Speaker 1: This particular incident is going to continue to be impactful.

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Speaker 1: Even though it's not the first, it's not gonna be

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Speaker 1: the last one of these. It is still impactful because

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Speaker 1: of how much of a symbol has been turned into

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Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people forget about how

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Speaker 1: how chaotic the night on the internet was the day

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Speaker 1: of the Kenosha shooting. UM like it was. It was

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Speaker 1: wild being online as that was going on. Uh No,

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Speaker 1: one had no idea what was going on. People could

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Speaker 1: not agree on who the shooter was beforehand. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot of pictures floating around. It was it was,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was a nightmare. Uh we know, we

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Speaker 1: knew that people were shot, we couldn't know how many

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Speaker 1: or who. Like it was, it was pretty bad and chaotic,

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Speaker 1: And it is always that way in the wake of

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Speaker 1: a shooting. UM, and it is the in any given shooting.

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Speaker 1: Always keep in mind when you're when you're online or

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Speaker 1: in person and there has been a shooting and people

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Speaker 1: are saying things about said shooting other than we should

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Speaker 1: take cover from the shooting. If they're saying anything else

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Speaker 1: about it, um, you have to assume they're probably not

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Speaker 1: either wrong or not entirely accurate. Um, because it's hard

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Speaker 1: to be. It happens constantly. I mean, that's not it's

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Speaker 1: something against any of them. I can remember a moment

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Speaker 1: when you and I were out last year Garrison and

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Speaker 1: there was a shooting I don't know, like forty ft away. Um.

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Speaker 1: Nobody hurt, thankfully, but like the the immediate report from

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Speaker 1: it was some guy had gotten pulled an a R

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Speaker 1: fifteen out of his car and uh, and I I

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Speaker 1: think the thing I said to you was, I'll bet

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Speaker 1: you right now it's a nine millimeter handgun. And sure enough,

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Speaker 1: within minutes there was a photo. Yeah. It's and it's

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Speaker 1: not that those people were like dumb or bad. It's that,

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Speaker 1: like shootings are scary, guns getting pulled is scary, and

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Speaker 1: people funk up um in in their recollections. Um. It's

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Speaker 1: the same way in which, like if a bear comes

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Speaker 1: after you, uh, you may exaggerate the size of that

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Speaker 1: bear in your head because you're scared as ship, because

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Speaker 1: it's a bear. Yeah. So, so I was home on

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Speaker 1: augustum just and I I was I was actually about

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Speaker 1: to go out to to uh cover a purchase in Portland,

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Speaker 1: but then I saw this happened on my phone on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I cannot go out. I will be

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Speaker 1: more useful at home. Um. So, with with so much

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Speaker 1: uncertainty online or the details of the actual shooting it was,

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Speaker 1: it was clear that trying to provide concrete information would

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Speaker 1: be crucial in the hours to come. So I spowed

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Speaker 1: it up my computer and started to try to begin

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Speaker 1: to search for you know, information and and verifiable stuff. UM.

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Speaker 1: So I spent I spent all night looking looking for

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Speaker 1: details about the shooter you know, um, uncovering his supposed

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Speaker 1: identity um. Ultimately about an hour before the police announced

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Speaker 1: their investigation even started um and and twelve hours before

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Speaker 1: the police announced the shooters arrest um. And also to

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Speaker 1: my surprise at the time, I discovered that the shooter

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Speaker 1: was the same age as me. Um. Yeah, that was

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Speaker 1: that That was That was a night so um because

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Speaker 1: because I mainly used to titter and most of the

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Speaker 1: video of the instant was on Twitter, I started, uh

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Speaker 1: my my investigation by looking at Twitter. Uh my first

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Speaker 1: goal was to find as as many videos of of

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Speaker 1: the shooting that I could and collect pictures of all

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Speaker 1: of the alleged suspects, all all the people who were claiming, Hey, this,

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Speaker 1: this is this is the shooter. I think I think

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Speaker 1: I got a picture of the shooter who was Here's

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Speaker 1: what he is? Um. So, I I kept my eye

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Speaker 1: on trending terms. Uh So, I searched under the hashtags

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Speaker 1: like Kenosha, Kenosha shootings, Kanosha shooting, Kenosha protests, boogaloo was

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Speaker 1: trending a lot, A lot of people thought the shooter

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Speaker 1: was a boogaloo boy. Um was not um and also

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Speaker 1: hashtag militia. So the search has brought up a lot,

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Speaker 1: a lot of photos of of multiple young men, most

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Speaker 1: of whom were carrying long guns, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: unconfirmed reports that the shooter was a boogaloo boy was

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Speaker 1: trending on Twitter. This was the main the main thing

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Speaker 1: that night was boogloo boy shot. All the stuff that

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Speaker 1: that was the main, the main trending topic. A lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of conflicting details, and I did not

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Speaker 1: want to kind of add the misinformation, so I decided

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Speaker 1: to not make any posts but whatsoever about the identity

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Speaker 1: of the shooter until I was one percent confident um

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Speaker 1: that I had the correct idea, which takes a while.

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Speaker 1: It's it's not you know, Twitter wants you to post

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Speaker 1: stuff quickly as soon as you find it out, and

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Speaker 1: it's way better to hold off your information and wait

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Speaker 1: until you are absolutely sure it's the right time to

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Speaker 1: post it. And because it's the correct, correct stuff. Because

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Speaker 1: mismismisidentifying a suspect, you can have a serious, serious consequences

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Speaker 1: for any individual um involved. It's when when the worst

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Speaker 1: things you can do is is miss misidentifying any any suspect.

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Speaker 1: So I was looking through all the videos that I

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Speaker 1: collected for kind of unique um or identifying clothing that

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Speaker 1: that the shooter may have been wearing. The first video

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Speaker 1: I found useful was from a right wing videographer named

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Speaker 1: Drew hernandez Um who a few months later called from

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Speaker 1: Bloodshed at the Capitol. He also testified at the Written

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Speaker 1: House trial. This video did not actually show any any

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Speaker 1: actual shooting. It had a wounded person on the ground

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Speaker 1: being treated by a medic and a man standing over

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Speaker 1: the scene with with with a gun. Um And wearing

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Speaker 1: a green shirt, a tan baseball cap, jeans, and like

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Speaker 1: purple latex gloves. He had, he had a he had

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Speaker 1: he had a black and orange bag. Um. The person

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Speaker 1: on the green shirt then runs towards the camera while

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Speaker 1: talking on the phone, and he says into the phone, UM,

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Speaker 1: I just shot somebody or I just killed somebody. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to tell where he's actually saying if it's it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things where if you think about it,

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Speaker 1: you can hear both ones. But but he he says

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Speaker 1: something like I just killed somebody on the phone, and

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Speaker 1: he runs past the camera. So this this, this, this

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Speaker 1: was the first kind of really important piece of information

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Speaker 1: personal that was brought up in the trial too. And

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Speaker 1: he he was like, I don't remember what I said.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, okay, Yeah. And to be honest, like, even

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Speaker 1: if if this was I don't think any of us

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Speaker 1: believed this was legitimate self defense. But like, even if

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Speaker 1: it was, either of those things would be perfectly acceptable

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Speaker 1: things to say. It's a surprising momentum, and you probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't remember what you said. I don't necessarily think he's

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Speaker 1: lying about that. It turns out he he was. He

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Speaker 1: was on the phone with the person who bought him

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Speaker 1: the gun of a friend of his. UM. So, but

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Speaker 1: but that this was my first important piece of information,

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Speaker 1: you know, the the night of Right, this is before

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Speaker 1: anyone's analyzed any of this stuff. So this is the

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Speaker 1: first video that I can find it. Like, Okay, here's

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Speaker 1: a person admitting on camera that they shot somebody. Um,

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Speaker 1: and we're wearing a few potential identifiers, namely the green shirt,

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Speaker 1: baseball cap, and bag. Um. So now I can search

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Speaker 1: for all of those items together and the rest of

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Speaker 1: the footage collected throughout the night. Looking over the top

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Speaker 1: viral videos of the night showing multiple people getting shot. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is from this is from later on. After the

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Speaker 1: first person gets killed, we can see someone in a

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Speaker 1: baseball cap, black and oaunch bag and what could be

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Speaker 1: a green shirt running through a street. Um. Somebody runs

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Speaker 1: over to the individual with the gun and kind of

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Speaker 1: punches them in the head, not knocking his hat off.

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Speaker 1: So now the person running with the gun does not

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Speaker 1: have a hat. Individual with the gun, he keeps running,

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Speaker 1: but trips and falls on the ground before people try

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Speaker 1: to disarm him. Uh. Four more shots are fired from

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Speaker 1: the suspect, and uh. One more person dies as a

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Speaker 1: result of this, other person gets their arm nearly blown off. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There is one continuous video of all of this happening.

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Speaker 1: Extremely useful having having one video of this whole shot. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: So the shooter, who appears to be the same person

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Speaker 1: is the other video because of the green shirt and

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Speaker 1: the hat at the beginning, continues to get onto his

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Speaker 1: feet and runs off again. Uh. And the orange orangine orangine,

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Speaker 1: a black bag swings in front of him as he's running,

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Speaker 1: and a purple glove is also visible. Multiple vehicles drive past,

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Speaker 1: like police vehicles. Um. The shooter then walks up pretty

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Speaker 1: close to the police vehicle and he just he just

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Speaker 1: he just with with with the rife and nothing, nothing happens.

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Speaker 1: He he like he wait, he waves to the cops

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Speaker 1: and they just keep driving and he walks away. So

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Speaker 1: after finding watching these videos I had, I had no

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Speaker 1: reason to believe the shooter was in custody. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I had a good idea of his clothing and attire.

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Speaker 1: So it's time to you know, compare this information that

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Speaker 1: I gathered, uh two pictures of the supposed you know,

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Speaker 1: suspects circulating on Twitter. Um. But but first I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: now it's it's the time to listen to people selling

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Speaker 1: new stuff. You know who doesn't oh boy trampled to

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Speaker 1: another state to show up armed in a community to

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Speaker 1: threaten people. They don't do it. I'm saying they don't.

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Speaker 1: That's good, okay, all right? The products and services who

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Speaker 1: support Hello Fresh black Liffe p Actually, a number of

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Speaker 1: our sponsors will show up unwanted in your community armed.

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Speaker 1: I forgot the Washington State Highway and the I have

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Speaker 1: both dropped dads now well also, you know a highway

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Speaker 1: patrol to forget about those motherfuckers like Kyle Rittenhouse. A

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Speaker 1: number of our sponsors may show up in your home

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Speaker 1: neighborhood with another one also, Black Life Coffee, Kyle's favorite

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Speaker 1: brand of coffee. Remember, well it was until they disavowed him.

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Speaker 1: An here's here's the ads. Here's the ones that pay.

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Speaker 1: We're bad. So there was there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: pictures of suspects on Twitter, some of them who look

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Speaker 1: nothing like the person we now know who shot those people.

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Speaker 1: Um funny how that happens. It's uh, well, it's not funny.

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Speaker 1: It's it's pretty pretty pretty pretty bad. Yeah, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's not great just to share stuff like like that

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Speaker 1: when these things happened. Um, which is why I said

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna share anything until no. UM, I know

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Speaker 1: that it's it's it's actually worth posting about. So in uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go through go through some some some of

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Speaker 1: the pictures and stuff of of I'm going through at

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Speaker 1: least one of the pictures of one of the people

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Speaker 1: people claimed to be the shooter. So in one picture circulating,

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Speaker 1: you see someone in a green shirt, a baseball cap,

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Speaker 1: and big, big, big black rifle. But this man's also

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Speaker 1: wearing shorts of a black hat, not a tan. One

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Speaker 1: has no bag, appears to be wearing like a tactile

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Speaker 1: vest that is also green. So not the guy, even

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Speaker 1: though he's wearing a green shirt and hat, not the

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Speaker 1: same dude. Was be pretty easy to check not you

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Speaker 1: don't really don't need to share that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Pretty sure, Pretty sure a lot of people own green shirts, yea.

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Speaker 1: So two other photos that were circulating, they were claiming

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Speaker 1: to be the guy. We had a green shirt, a

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Speaker 1: tan baseball cap put on backwards jeans. Um. One of

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Speaker 1: the one of the pictures has a bag in front

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Speaker 1: of which is an orange and black one. Where one

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Speaker 1: of them doesn't. One picture has purple gloves of the

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Speaker 1: picture doesn't. But these dudes look pretty similar despite the

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Speaker 1: same differences. I'm pretty sure this is this is this,

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Speaker 1: This is the same guy. But you know, I'm a

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Speaker 1: decision at the night, so this is probably the same dude.

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Speaker 1: Um And he does appear to match the shooter a

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Speaker 1: lot better. And there was a few few clear fixed

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Speaker 1: pictures of his face um here, But honestly, the face

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Speaker 1: of if if you look at all the pictures of

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Speaker 1: the Connection shooting that night, the pictures of the suspect

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Speaker 1: are really unclear because the way that the light hit

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Speaker 1: his face, he looks like an incredibly generic white boy.

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Speaker 1: Um like, extremely generic. It is hard to tell any

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Speaker 1: any I identifying features from his face because they look

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Speaker 1: like he looks like every every white every white boy.

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Speaker 1: It's really hard to say everyone you went to high

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Speaker 1: school with, who I don't know sniffed a girl's chair

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Speaker 1: when he likes that's that's Kyle Rittenhouse. Such a visual

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Speaker 1: Now that I decided that I have, like, I have

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Speaker 1: a decent collection of pictures of who I believe the

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Speaker 1: actual actual suspect is time time time to figure out

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Speaker 1: who the suspects like name actually is and this is

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Speaker 1: This is one of the one of the harder things,

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Speaker 1: but often you can have a lot of help in

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Speaker 1: ways that you might not expect. Um Often, once you

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Speaker 1: can get a good picture of someone you know, be like, yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: this this is actually the dude. Once it gets shared enough,

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Speaker 1: often somebody knows who this is already. You know, the

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Speaker 1: internet is a pretty big place. I believe the first

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Speaker 1: I believe the first person to actually like like I

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Speaker 1: was I was the person to like prove online who

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Speaker 1: who d written that kuy Right knows was the shooter.

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Speaker 1: The first person to actually tie Kyle's name to the

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Speaker 1: shooter UM was a neighbor of his on Facebook. UM.

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Speaker 1: They they saw pictures of the shooter on on Facebook

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Speaker 1: and said, hey, I think this I think I recognized

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Speaker 1: this guy. I think I think this is my neighbor. UM.

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Speaker 1: So often, once you start, once you have like enough

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Speaker 1: pictures and those can spread, people will feel to find names.

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Speaker 1: It isn't as hard as you would think that. The

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Speaker 1: hard part is is finding out what personal connections are

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Speaker 1: making those links and finding out where where where those are.

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Speaker 1: But stuff, stuff spreads in a weird way and right

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Speaker 1: for this. You know, I find I was able to

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Speaker 1: prove that it was Kyle pretty quickly. Um, for a

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Speaker 1: few reasons. So after I was doing my my my

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Speaker 1: clothing comparisons to figure out this is to prove, like

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Speaker 1: he said, this is the actual person who who did

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Speaker 1: these things. Um. The other thing I I found that

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Speaker 1: was not it was not viral at all, um, but

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Speaker 1: just because I was digging through so much stuff, was

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Speaker 1: this meme shared by uh I by some like small

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Speaker 1: boogaloo account. Um. It was a picture of the shooter.

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Speaker 1: Uh compare right beside a collection of Blue Lives Matter

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Speaker 1: pictures of someone who looks kind of similar, linking to

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Speaker 1: a Facebook page or not not linking it was it

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Speaker 1: was it was screenshot from the Facebook page. And I

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Speaker 1: can tell because of the font. And it was, like

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Speaker 1: I said, like a written house is photos. So this

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Speaker 1: was the first This is the first thing I saw

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Speaker 1: on the like buried deep inside like Twitter's, Twitter's, Twitter's images.

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Speaker 1: But by using all of like these a hashtag terms

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Speaker 1: was this meme and and and then the meme said

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Speaker 1: so y'all think he's still a boogaloo. No, No, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't but because because of all of the pro police stuff,

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Speaker 1: because boogleos generally are not not that fond fond of police.

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Speaker 1: Yeah so so yeah, um, given given. So you know,

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Speaker 1: if someone was to look at this, you know, look

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Speaker 1: at this meme itself, he's like, okay, you know, the

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00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 1: job was done. You know information, this dude looks vaguely

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Speaker 1: similar ish to the guy on this written house Facebook. Um,

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Speaker 1: the gun looks kind of similar because one of the

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Speaker 1: pictures of the Facebook was it was a guy holding

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Speaker 1: was a guy holding in a r um. But you know,

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Speaker 1: just something looking similar or even holding a similar gun

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00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 1: in one picture from a Facebook account. That's not enough

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Speaker 1: to be sure about publishing a positive I d that

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00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 1: there's there's there's no actual really, there's no like definitive

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00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,479
Speaker 1: proof there because honestly, if I was to look at

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Speaker 1: these two guys faces, they don't look incredibly similar because

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Speaker 1: faces can distort it with lighting and compression that it's it's,

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00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 1: it's it's. It can be really difficult. And this is

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Speaker 1: where you know, trying to idea shooter is hard and

396
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 1: requires complex judgment. Calls and posting in accurate information or

397
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 1: like incomplete information, um can have you know, extremely harmful effects,

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00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot a lot of examples of

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Speaker 1: this happening in the past. You know, probably the biggest example,

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Speaker 1: or the most notorious one of false identification is the

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Speaker 1: Boston bombing incident. Um. So, you know, right after the

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00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 1: right after thirteen bombing, you know, thousands of users on

403
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: sites like Reddit and four chan became combing through footage

404
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: to try to identify potential suspects screen caps of the

405
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 1: people they deemed suspicious when viral online on on various

406
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,119
Speaker 1: social media sites. Unfortunately, the slew thing work done on

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00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 1: four Chan and Reddit was incredibly shoddy um and seemingly

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00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: had way more to do with like racial paranoia than

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00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 1: actual detective work and evidence gathering. The New York Post

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00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,959
Speaker 1: subsequently published a picture on front page that that originated

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00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: on Reddit, that users had declared that that was showing

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00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: the two suspects with without doing any further verification. So

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00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 1: it's it's it's real bad how stuff can spread from

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Speaker 1: Reddit like this that's completely unverified to you know, a newspaper,

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00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 1: even as one as unreputable as the Post, that's still

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Speaker 1: a very popular paper. The Post also claimed that the

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Speaker 1: law enforcement we're looking for those two to uh two

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Speaker 1: individuals in that picture. UM. One of the one of

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00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 1: the people identified by the post was harassed online. UM

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00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 1: police police later told him just to delete his social

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00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: media accounts entirely because there was no use at that point. UM.

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00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: When the FBI did officially release photos of the unnamed suspects,

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00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: Reddit users again false he identified these people on. One

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Speaker 1: of the people they false he identified went went missing

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00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: for weeks prior UM his his family received media inquiries

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00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 1: about the false and verified rumors of their son's involvement. UM,

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00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 1: and rumors of of of involvement were spread by reporters

428
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,879
Speaker 1: from Politico News, Squeak Newsweek, NBC News, and BuzzFeed. UM.

429
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: Eight days after the bombing, this guy was actually the bombing.

430
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: This guy was actually found dead and his family said

431
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: it was a suicide. UM, it was not not one

432
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 1: of the shooters, not one of the bombers. UM. Again,

433
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: why even more than the tactics you could use to

434
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: try and you know, verify things online, the most useful

435
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: thing you can take out of this is if there

436
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: is a mass shooting or other active violence and people

437
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: on social media are saying it is this person, don't

438
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: share it. Don't just don't share it, just wait, especially

439
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: in sharing it if they have don't have anything to

440
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: verify this at all. So yeah, like I'm not gonna,

441
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna don't again, that is the overwhelming thing.

442
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: We were not gonna you know. That's why you know

443
00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna share this Kyle Rittenhouse, um boogleoo me

444
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: because there's no proof for it. It's it's it's not

445
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: there now. Eventually, after digging, I would realize that this

446
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: meme cause comes from his neighbor saying that she thinks

447
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,239
Speaker 1: the suspect is him. So that's that's what this meme

448
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 1: was created. Um. But still like there there there was

449
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: no no proof for it, so I don't I didn't

450
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 1: share it. So all the Boston bombing stuff was like

451
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: going through my mind as I know found this and

452
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 1: was trying to dig for dig for my details. So yeah,

453
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: I knew that I could not post a name on

454
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: any social media um or any info until I until

455
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: I could prove it like without a shadow, but doubt

456
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: that this is the same person because a lot a

457
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: lot of times it is possible. It just requires work

458
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: in time, you know, And a big part of doing

459
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: this on Twitter is like, you want to get it

460
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 1: out fast, so you're the first person to do it,

461
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: so that you know you can go vital on your

462
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: thread of identifying this killer, And like, no, that's not

463
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: the reason to do image verification. It's not to go

464
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: viral on a thread. It's because whenever that's your goal

465
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: you're gonna do, you're gonna do shitty fast work that

466
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: is gonna end up causing some kind of horrible consequence,

467
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: like in the case the Boston bombing. And to be

468
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 1: even extra clear, the primary use for this that kind

469
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: of what you're teaching people image verification, which is something

470
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: that like like Belling Cat, which has been like kind

471
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: of a part time employer of mine. Um is an

472
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 1: open source journalism collective that's broken some of the biggest

473
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: stories in the last couple of years. And in the classes,

474
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: we teach a class on image verification. And the point

475
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: is just whenever someone is sharing a piece of what

476
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: is like supposedly breaking news based on video or images

477
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: that have been taken at the side of a whatever,

478
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: image verification tactics can help you to know whether or

479
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: not it's whether or not either it's true or false.

480
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: But also just whether or not the image the information

481
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: they're presenting gives you any reason to believe it, Like

482
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: it's how you might be full of shit, Like that's

483
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: super important. Yeah, like that, there's there's a thing that

484
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: happens like and any time there's something that looks like

485
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: a war starting. There is like this video of a

486
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: bombing from two thousand fourteen and Gaza that goes around. Yeah,

487
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: it's like every time. Yeah. Um, there's there's actually five

488
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: or six different kinds of things that are like that Chris,

489
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: that are like, oh this is there's actually footage from

490
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: like a Russian video game that people keep keeps getting

491
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: like mistaken for action combat footage, and it's like, no,

492
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: it's fucking from a video game. This has been on,

493
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: this has been three wars. Now. There's this famous footage

494
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: of like a fucking um an air soft battle at

495
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: night with glowing with soft pellets, with the glowing pellets

496
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: and it it kind of it kind of looks because

497
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: it's black and white and not a great camera, it

498
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: kind of looks like tracer fire. And it's there's like

499
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: three Wars that people have said like look, this is

500
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: still combat footage from it happens all the time. And

501
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: again great account to follow is a hoax. I On Twitter,

502
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: they do really good work pointing out just like kind

503
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: of more like more like less high stakes kind of

504
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: image image verification stuff. Um So, but before I get

505
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: into the actual like verification work of like proving, Hey,

506
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: I can actually prove that that by by not just

507
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: someone's face, I can prove that this shooter is the

508
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: same guy from from from the Facebook page. Um, I'll

509
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,360
Speaker 1: explain that next first short short ad break, and then

510
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: we will finish up with this actual proving section. Yeah

511
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: you know who is not Kyle? Wow? Do you have

512
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: really dropped the ball out all of the transitions today. Yeah.

513
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: I am not proud of myself or my place in

514
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: society at the moment. Um, here's the ads. We're back.

515
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: I feel terrible Garrison. And So, even even though the

516
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: boogloo meme was not hard evidence, uh it did, it

517
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: did provide a lead. So after seeing the meme, I

518
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: did the first most obvious thing that I could see

519
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: was compare the gun in the two frames. Uh they

520
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: do look similar. Uh they're not. They're not identical. Uh,

521
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: the optics are different for each rifle. Um. But the

522
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: rest of it. But the stock, the grip um, and

523
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: the barrel do do seem do seem to be? Do

524
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: seem to be, if not, if not identical, at least

525
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: extremely similar. Again, still not enough to make a positive

526
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: idea on an individual basis, Like this person is its person,

527
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: So that the next step is to scour the actual

528
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: Facebook account itself that is alluded to in this meme

529
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: and see what I can find there. The goal obviously

530
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: being to find statements or pictures that will tie this

531
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: person in the images of the shooter to the person

532
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: on the account. So that's you know, clothing, location, intention,

533
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, all these types of things that could tie

534
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: the pictures of the shooter the pictures of person on

535
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: on on this account. Um So, Kyle houses old public

536
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: Facebook profile was mainly made up of Blue Lives Matter

537
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: and pro police images going back as far as twenty seventeen, UM,

538
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: with a few uh then recent pictures of him holding

539
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: his Air fifteen style rifle. Uh those the rifle pictures

540
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: were like from June. The shooting happened in late August. Um.

541
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: It appears I think it came out in the trial

542
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: that he got his rifle around like May um so yeah,

543
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of a lot of pro

544
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: police stuff, a lot of them blue lining, blue lives

545
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: matters type things. Um. His public his his public page

546
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: is is relatively sparse um and there was no public

547
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: friends list to look through. Um. One one noteworthy piece

548
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: of information was that he did he did list another

549
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: name for himself as Kyle Lewis believe his mother's maiden name.

550
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: Sure but uh but even so, even though I wasn't

551
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: able to view a friends list and there wasn't many

552
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: public posts, uh, this is his page is by no

553
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: means a dead end. I could still see everyone that

554
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: has commented on, shared, or liked his public posts. Because

555
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: like so, he did not have he he did not

556
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: many have any pictures himself himself on his page that

557
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: that that I could use for verification. He didn't have

558
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: like not nothing that I could tie to the shooting

559
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: besides the actual guns. So not not tons of useful

560
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: not tons of useful stuff. But there's perhaps there's still

561
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,959
Speaker 1: other other leads to look through, like everyone who's liked, shared,

562
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: or uh commented on his posts. So I I opened

563
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: up new tabs for every single person that interacted with

564
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: Kyle's posts. While looking over their pages, I was searching

565
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: to see if any of them had listed Kyle as

566
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: a relative, with a focus on anyone with the last

567
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,479
Speaker 1: name of written House or Lewis um and and you know,

568
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: ideally was looking forward to see if anyone had pictures

569
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: of Kyle or someone who seems to be Kyle. Uh.

570
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: One post from May eighteen eventually eventually proved useful. One

571
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: comment read, Kyle, you sure do look look like a Louis.

572
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: So there's the alternate last name. And two people had

573
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: liked that comment Kyle himself and and uh and someone

574
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: who is his mom? Would you or would would later

575
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: find out is his mom? Um? Uh? So she said

576
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: that lived She said that she lived in Uh. Is

577
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: it anatok Illinois? Antioch? Probably Antioch, Illinois, which matches uh

578
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: with Kyle's uh Illinois based pro police posts. He made

579
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: a lot of like Chicago Blue Lives Matter posts, so

580
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: I assumed that Kyle was from Illinois. And also, um,

581
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: uh Antioch is that you said whatever? Antioch to to

582
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: Wiscon's Antioch to Kenosha is only like three minute drive,

583
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: so that is also like okay, that's that's that's that's

584
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: pretty close. That is that is doable. Um, so it

585
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: was the next I went. I went through a lot

586
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: of the relatives pages, but I'm gonna focus just on

587
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: the person who I found out who was, um, Kyle's mom,

588
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 1: because they're the one that had the most useful information, right.

589
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: A lot of other information I looked through just turn

590
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: out to be useful, right, So I'm not not including

591
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 1: all of that here. Um Uh. One post from from

592
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: Wendy's mom uh featured a younger Kyle wearing a police outfit. Um.

593
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure people have seen this picture online before. I

594
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: think I was probably I was. I was probably the

595
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: first person to share this photo of Kyle in this

596
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: in this younger Kyle wearing this this police this police costume,

597
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: an unbelievably cringe e photo like side of the fact

598
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: that he took two lives, like just yeah, I mean

599
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: we all have photos we took when while an r

600
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 1: OTC Like so yeah, ideally we would we would give

601
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: there There's actually there's actually a lot more of these photos.

602
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: There's photos of him touring so this is this stuff.

603
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: I also found that night photos of him like touring

604
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: a target with police as he's in a police uniform.

605
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: He was part of like a police young Cadets program.

606
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: He he was like twelve, um, so that that's where

607
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: he got this outfit. And he like tagged around with

608
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: police for like a day or something. And this photos

609
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: of him like in a target with police. Even when

610
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: I was like a shitty right winging kid, that sounded

611
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: like a nightmare. So so yeah, so Kyle's the person

612
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: who I figured out was Kyle's mom posted this this

613
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: photo of of her and Kyle, which which Kyle liked,

614
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: and then in another picture of another picture from from

615
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: Kyle's mom, I found, uh, it's a family picture including

616
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: Kyle wearing what I would say is like an army

617
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: green shirt kind of similar, but it's a green shirt

618
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: like I have. I have shirts that are pretty similar

619
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: to that. I'm not gonna that's not gonna be anything

620
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: so super definitive until we got there's one one picture

621
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: that that proved to be much much more, much more

622
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: useful of Kyle on or someone who assumed was Kyle,

623
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: you don't you don't you don't actually see his face,

624
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: but he is wearing a whole roably cringe e American

625
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: flag crocs, which which which which was so, and and

626
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: and on. On Kyle's page, there was also pictures of

627
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: him wearing those same crocs. So like, even even though

628
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: I can't see the person's face, the crocs the same,

629
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: probably the same guy. He's also wearing a tan baseball cap. Um.

630
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: And on this I can actually see that it has

631
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 1: an American flag on the front of the cap, which

632
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: I did not notice on anything else before. So that's,

633
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 1: you know, that's something different. But again not that that's

634
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: that's not that's not that's not like a red flag.

635
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: That's just you know, a thing to a thing of note.

636
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: Um because the baseball cap is tan um and it

637
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: has like white mesh on the sides. Um. The one.

638
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 1: The one thing I did, I did make one post

639
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: before I actually did any kind of I claiming to

640
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: do I identity stuff. I did ask my Twitter followers

641
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: if there's any pictures of the back of the Shooters

642
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: cap um, and I got them to to send me those,

643
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: and then I got one picture of of the back

644
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: that actually has uh I couldn't see, like, Okay, the

645
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: back of the Shooters cap also has the flag on it,

646
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: so I was able to actually show that. Okay, So

647
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: the baseball cap on the back of it. Uh, but

648
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: they're both tann baseball caps, they both have white mesh

649
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: in the side, they both have to have an American flag.

650
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: And then I got another picture that was even closer

651
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: that showed a tear on the brim of the hat.

652
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: And if you zoom in on one of the beach pictures,

653
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: you could also see a tear on the same position

654
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: on the hat. So this is this hat? Is the

655
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: hat is the same hat? The hat was definitely it

656
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: was definitely in both locations. So at this point, based

657
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: on the gun, based on the hat, based on the

658
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: location being very close to kenosha Um and being closed

659
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: on the rough facial similarities, um, there was there was

660
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: enough enough to enough to to um enough to put

661
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 1: put stuff together to be like, Okay, I I think

662
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: I think this is this is probably this is probably

663
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: fine in saying I think this is probably the dude. Um.

664
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 1: So at this point I wasn't. I wasn't. Again, I'm

665
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: not gonna post this immediately, and I'm not gonna post

666
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: something by saying this is who it is without providing

667
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: the evidence. So instead of like writting a thread tweet

668
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: by tweet, I read the whole thread out and then

669
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: tweet the whole thread at the same time. Um so,

670
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: so I put it on the thread documenting my relevant stuff.

671
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 1: Um I I wrote the first eight posts the same

672
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: time and posted them together with all the evidence of uploaded.

673
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: Um and then and then, Uh, as I was writing

674
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: the threat, I came across another piece of evidence. There

675
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: was one I was going through one of the live

676
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: streams of of that night from a channel called the

677
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 1: Rundown Live, which I've not heard anything of before or

678
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: since then. Um, but you know one of the many

679
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: streamers that were out, um, and you can see you

680
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: can see Kyle in the frame and then like pans away,

681
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: but the people are still talking. Um so, so Kyle

682
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: Kyle is actually off camera now, um but he I

683
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: think someone like asks him his name and he and

684
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: the person who I think is Kyle replies Kyle. Now,

685
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: of course it's off camera, so it's not you can't

686
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: be totally sure. There's there's enough context clues and that

687
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: plus only other evidence. I'm like, Okay, this is enough

688
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: to add to the thread because it again it's it's

689
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: not enough proof by itself, but it combined with everything

690
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: else completes a much fuller picture. So I posted my

691
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: like niner yeah like eight or nine thing thread on

692
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: being able to prove its Kyle via you know, comparing

693
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: stuff like the gun, uh, the hat, the shirt, and

694
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: demonstrating my work tracking across Facebook and how it's able

695
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: to like link these two people together. Um. Twenty two

696
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 1: minutes after I posted the threat identifying Kyle Kosha, police

697
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 1: announced that they were that they were starting an active investigation. UM.

698
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: I soon added a court document to my read about

699
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: a traffic violation UH by someone named cow written house,

700
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: filed a few days before the shooting. The traffic violation

701
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: thing also included stuff like address, which I I I

702
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: blacked out the addressed for that just because sharing the

703
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: sharing for reasons I'll explain, because again, if it's if

704
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: it's a it's a track of violation, if people really

705
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: want it, they can't find it themselves, right, it's it's

706
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: not making impossible to find it. And this was able

707
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: to confirm it. It was in the same location um

708
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: antioch um. And also this this proved that Kyle was

709
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: seventeen at the time. Uh. This is how we knew

710
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: that he was seventeen years old. At the time of

711
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: the shooting was because of this traffic violation document found online.

712
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: So the the address on the violation document was the

713
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: same one I had linked to Kyle's mom. By doing

714
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: other like ocean address work, I was able to find

715
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: out where what what her address was. UM. So so yeah,

716
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: that was that was most to my work that night. Uh.

717
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: It took about I don't know, like two sh maybe

718
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard, it's hard to break up. Uh,

719
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: it's timing it. It took about half an hour to

720
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: get from the boogaloo meme to finding the matching baseball

721
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: cap on on Kyle's mom's Facebook page, about another half

722
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 1: hour to write out the thread, and you know, about

723
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: an hour of work previous to that about you know,

724
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: trying to find out the actual you know, footage and

725
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: categorize it. And Okay, this is the clothing he's wearing.

726
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: Here's the clothes I I need to look for on

727
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: social media right see see see see if I can

728
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: find these shoes, these pants, this, this shirt, this hat,

729
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 1: this bag, that kind of stuff. Um, and I was

730
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: able to find enough of those items to make it

731
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: pretty pretty clear that it was it was you know,

732
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: linked Um and that makes you, Garrison, one of the

733
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: first people in the world to get to no way

734
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: more about Kyle Rittenhouse than you ever wanted to know. Yeah,

735
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: a lot more. This nightmare has been going on longer

736
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: for you than yeah. And so I want to know

737
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: a few other ways to do image verifications, specifically on

738
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: Kyle that that I didn't do, but other people did

739
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: after after I after I said, hey, this is part

740
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: of the guy. So afterwards people found other kind of

741
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: evidence on Kyle's TikTok um and snapchat. So it turns

742
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: out Kyle was snapchatting his night in Wisconsin, um, which

743
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 1: we would find out later, So he was that he

744
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: was snapchatting from kenosha Um and Garrison. First off, I

745
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: do feel as the representative of zoomers in in this call.

746
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: Why are you Why are you guys all using the snapchats? Huh?

747
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: I don't use I don't use the snapchats. Um. Well,

748
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: I'm making you answer for the crimes of your generation,

749
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: the crimes like the snap Now. Well, technically speaking, I

750
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: have one friend who I only talked to you through snapchat,

751
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: and we both only use it for that and we

752
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: don't know why we use Snapchat. Yeah, there's a few

753
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: people who are like Snapchat, people who only text or snapchat,

754
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't get it. Yeah, except neither

755
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: of us are like that. We just specifically I just

756
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: got a signal anyway, So yeah, Snapchat. There's also uh

757
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: TikTok Um. There was a footage of of Kyle attending

758
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: a Trump rally at TikTok also him like assembling and

759
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: testing out his gun was on a Snapchat. I believe

760
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: eclips that it were also shared on TikTok so I

761
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: could have got a lot more closer details of the

762
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: gun if if I looked on if if on Snapchat

763
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: or our TikTok Um, and I think, if this is

764
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: this is a good advice that I've taken since then,

765
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 1: and for other people looking to do this stuff. If

766
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: if a suspect looks as young, um, you know, Snapchat

767
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: and TikTok might be or and and Instagram might be

768
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: apps that are worth are worth checking out for information

769
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: as opposed to like Facebook. Right, lucky, lucky enough, there

770
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 1: was enough stuff on Facebook on this instance, typically probably

771
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: because no, Kyle's family was come servative so and he

772
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 1: was conservative, so higher chance of being on Facebook there.

773
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: But you know, in general, if someone's younger and maybe

774
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: look on younger apps. Um but yeah, UM, so you know,

775
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: good thing to think about. You know, whenever these like

776
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: chaotic panics moments happen, you know, missifferation can spread very

777
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: very quickly. UM. Cannot stress enough how dangerous and irresponsible

778
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 1: it is when a suspect is named without proper verification. UM.

779
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 1: You know. Uh, last last September, uh Ean Miles Chung

780
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: falsely identified a suspect in the shooting of two l

781
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 1: A police officers. Of this resulted in the falsely accused

782
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: got a man and receiving many death threats online. I

783
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,439
Speaker 1: think emails Chonging did this like again a few months later.

784
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: He he was doing this a lot last year he

785
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: was doing it. He was really bad about trying to

786
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: identify people. Um. But you know, doing solid solidarification work

787
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: is possible, but extreme caution needs to be taken. UM.

788
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: I need to be very mindful of the consequences of

789
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: your actions when when you're doing this work. Yeah, I

790
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: want to put out Garrison is very good at this

791
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 1: that that's why it took two hours and a half hours.

792
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: It's going to take it takes a lot longer. Yeah,

793
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: Like honestly, like I was like it. Finding Kyle was

794
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: just the right mix of things in one moment. Often

795
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Often it doesn't go that fast, and it

796
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be right like A big big of

797
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: the problem is that if people think about it needing

798
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: to be like a fast paced thing, that's where that

799
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: that's where the mistakes happen. I was just lucky to

800
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: have enough like dominoes follow in the right place too.

801
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: I identify how the night of having having his neighbor say, hey,

802
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: this guy looks similar to my neighbor, extremely useful in

803
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: in in in the long run, right like that that

804
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: happened faster than that happens in a lot of cases,

805
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: So that really accelerated things. Sometimes it will be easy

806
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: sometimes like a good example of when it's harder. We

807
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: have a decent amount of footage about the individual who

808
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: placed bombs outside of the Capital Bomber before the sixth

809
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: um That person has not been identified and the FBI

810
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: seems to have no goddamn clue. But also what they

811
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: were way more intentional. They were very smart whoever they are,

812
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: they're very capable. They were the only thing on them

813
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: is their shoes. Basically those are those are kind of

814
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 1: the polls of this right on one. Like that with

815
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,439
Speaker 1: with Rittenhouse, you've got this situation where it's like all

816
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 1: of the information you need to identify them is there

817
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: openly online. UM. And part of ops sex if you're

818
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: doing things that are crimes UM is to make sure

819
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: that is to limit that that that whatever it is

820
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: you are going to to the to the crimes in UM.

821
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: There nothing exists on the internet that connects that to

822
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: your name and face, and that that doesn't That doesn't

823
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: always mean black block, that can mean other clothing, especially

824
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: if you've been photographed in black block of books. I

825
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: think like if you look at if you look at um,

826
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: the guy who dropped off bombs at January six, he's

827
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: not wearing black block because black block draws attention. He's

828
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: wearing like grays. He's he's wearing like that guy that well,

829
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: that individual person is either a former FED or former

830
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: special for they were very capable, leaning towards FED, who

831
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: showed up in clothing they had never weren't worn before

832
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: and paid for used in cash, probably from a variety

833
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 1: of places. UM. That clothing was burned as soon as

834
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,399
Speaker 1: they got away. They were out of the state as

835
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: early as it was possible to do so, plant them

836
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: and then immediately get out like um. And you know,

837
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: by the time the capitol, right by the time their

838
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: bombs had been found, they were they were if they

839
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: were smartly gone, you know, like that's how anyway whatever,

840
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: like like oftentimes they can be if someone knows what

841
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: they're doing, this this process could be a lot harder,

842
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: like in the case of the people of of the

843
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: guy who left the bombs at the capitol. Um. You know, Kyle,

844
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: it was not you know, wasn't wearing much identified clothing,

845
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: wasn't even wearing a mask because COVID was for cox um.

846
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: So you know, there's a lot of these things that

847
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: that made this process, um, you know, easier than a

848
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of other verifications. But like I said,

849
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: there still was a lot of false ideas going round

850
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: that night. Um kind of still happens. I'm kind of

851
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: on the fence myself as to whether or not it

852
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 1: would have been safer like for our country or the

853
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: society or whatever you want to call it. If um,

854
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: like how much more damnage or less damage would have

855
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 1: been done if Kyle Rittenhouse had been someone who showed

856
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: up in impeccable like clothing that he could not be

857
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: identified from, fucking ran off and was never caught, and

858
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: we just knew there was the shooting of protesters in

859
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 1: Kenosha um by somebody. UM, Like, I don't know how

860
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: much better or worse that is for society if that happens.

861
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm thinking about terrible things. But sorry,

862
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: first off, I want to apologize. Sometimes talking about this

863
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: stuff winds up seeming like advice for how to commit crimes.

864
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 1: That's not the intent. It's just when you talk about

865
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: what makes something difficult to identify, your kind of by

866
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 1: default talking about like here's how to here's how to

867
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: get commit a crime and get away with it, um.

868
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: And it's the kind of thing like if you're doing

869
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: verification work, one of the things that helps is to

870
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: kind of put yourself in the mindset of somebody who, Okay,

871
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 1: if I'm in this situation and I do this, um,

872
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: what are the decisions that I might make afterwards? Um?

873
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: And you can kind of try to uh think through

874
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: this person like it can be helpful, especially if you're

875
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: trying to like track someone through a day. So you know,

876
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: someone was at this point at a protest at x

877
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: hour because they shot somebody. Um, you know, think through. Okay,

878
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: what else happened that day? Where there other protests? Where

879
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: there other gatherings like or is this one in a

880
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: series of events? Can I go look for you know,

881
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: videos from other things in the area that this person

882
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: might have also been at and might have warned the

883
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: same clothing. Um, there's anyway. Image verification is fun, catch

884
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: the fever. It is. It is a fun thing to do.

885
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: It's good to if if if you're not able to

886
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: attend in person demos for like like physical reasons or whatever,

887
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: or like mental reasons, doing the stuff from home is

888
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 1: is another way of getting involved, especially already not tracking

889
00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: down bad people after the after they do bad things. Yeah,

890
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 1: so you can, you know, if you want to learn

891
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: more about this with you know, the benefit of also

892
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: visual aids um belling cat has if you just type

893
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: image verification belling cat. There's beginners and advanced guides to verification. Um,

894
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: there's talk about like manual reverse image search tools and

895
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: like how well they work. There's quizzes, So go go

896
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 1: there if you if you find this interesting, um, it

897
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: can be quite a hoot. UM. But you know what

898
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 1: else is quite a hoot ending a goddamn podcast, which

899
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: I'm doing. Now we're done, goodbye. I call the Union

900
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,399
Speaker 1: Hall as his male life and death. I think these

901
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 1: people of planning to kill Dr King. On April four,

902
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King was shot and killed in Memphis.

903
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: A petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He

904
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of

905
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: his life in prison. Case closed right, James L. Ray

906
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: was a pond for the official story the authorities would

907
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,320
Speaker 1: parade at all We found a gun the James L.

908
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: Ray bought in Birmingham that killed Dr King, Except it

909
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 1: wasn't the gun that killed Dr King. One of the

910
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: problems that came out when I got the Ray case

911
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: was that some of the evidence, as far as I

912
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the

913
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on

914
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

915
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:47,919
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hay Lee, the listeners take here. Last

916
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: season on Lethal Lit, you might remember I came to

917
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 1: Hollow Falls on a mission clearing my aunt best name

918
00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: and making sure justice was finally served. But I hadn't

919
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 1: counted on a rash of new murders tearing apart the town.

920
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: My mission put myself and my friends in danger, though

921
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't all bad. I'm going to be real. If

922
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: you tig I like you. But now all signs point

923
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: to a new serial killer in Hollow Falls. If this

924
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: game is just starting, you better believe I'm gonna win.

925
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: I'm tig Torres and this is Lethal Lit. Catch up

926
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: on season one of the hit murder mystery podcast Lethal Lit,

927
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: a tig Torre's mystery out now, and then tune in

928
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: for all new thrills in season two, dropping weekly starting

929
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: February nine. Subscribe now to never miss an episode. Listen

930
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:42,479
Speaker 1: to Leave the Lit on the I Heart Radio app,

931
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm

932
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the hosts

933
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,479
Speaker 1: of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind, where

934
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: every week we get to explore some of the weirdest

935
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation was possible,

936
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: how would it square with the multitudes of organisms that

937
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: inhabit our human bodies. Can we find evidence of emotions

938
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How would it

939
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,919
Speaker 1: interplanetary civilization function? Just free will exist. Stuff to Blow

940
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and

941
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: the wonders of techno history. Basically, this show is the

942
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 1: altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If anybody

943
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: ever told you you ask the weirdest questions, it is

944
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: time to come join us in the place where you belong.

945
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 1: The Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast New episodes publish

946
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays. Listen

947
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I Heart

948
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

949
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 1: Welcome to America. That's not great here podcast is here

950
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: a podcast? Welcome it is. If you're an international listener

951
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: and you're not American, that was really get the fuck

952
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 1: off of our podcast. Just like left people all like,

953
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: are you going to do one for every other country?

954
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: I think they're being rude for barging in the Internet

955
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: is clearly American soil. I would pay good money for

956
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: a wacko things. But with Robert saying all the all

957
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: the countries of the world, well, you know what you

958
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: need to do in order to be able to pay

959
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: good money for something, Garrison. You need to you need to.

960
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 1: You need to get money by by working well to

961
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: be born rich. But if you're not born rich, you

962
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 1: have to work. And a lot of people are saying

963
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: what if we did, what if we didn't? And now

964
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: they have a subreddit and that's what we're talking about

965
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 1: today anti work. Uh, not just the subreddit, but that's

966
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: why we're talking about it today, because the anti work

967
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: subreddit has grown hugely um and it's got like a

968
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: milli it's or it's it's like doubled. It's been around

969
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 1: for years. It's more than bold, it's it's almost it's almost. Yeah,

970
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: it's it's it's great. Well, well I'll I'll have the

971
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: numbers for later. Yeah, yeah, okay, great. Um, So, Garrison,

972
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 1: why don't you kick us off now that I've let

973
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: everyone know what to expect, will stop working um in

974
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: solidarity with the anti work movement. Thanks Robert, Um, You're welcome.

975
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, if the past few months, if you're anything

976
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: like us, um and and if you're online in the

977
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: same ways that we are, you've you've probably seen like

978
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 1: a flurry of posts and screenshots depicting text conversations between

979
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 1: like an employee and their boss. Typically, the boss like

980
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 1: asks them to come in when they said they were

981
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 1: going to have to be have to have having to

982
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: have time off or something. The employee objects, the boston

983
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 1: gets mad and makes threats and demands the employee be

984
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,279
Speaker 1: a better team player or some bullshit like that, um

985
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: and and then like the employee said something like, well,

986
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: you know what, actually I quit, good luck filling the

987
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: shift now buy and then the boss like pleads that

988
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 1: the now former employee comes back and offers like concessions

989
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: and end of screenshots. So pretty soon this type of

990
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: like screenshotted text conversation became like a meme format with

991
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: with people joking and obviously like staging fake ones as well.

992
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: Uh you know, similar to the scene I just described

993
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: but but but by all accounts, this trend started incredibly

994
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 1: like sincerely with with genuine text conversations showcasing like worker

995
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 1: abuse um and and uh, you know, bosses being unreasonable

996
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 1: and cruel um and some people putting their jobs just

997
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: to stand up for themselves. And um, all the stuff

998
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: is kind of tied up in the worker shortage kind

999
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: of miss the great resignation as a as a lot

1000
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 1: of pundits, yes, yeah, people of people resigning. And then

1001
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: you know a lot of like big companies complaining about

1002
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 1: worker shortages. Um. And and central to this like text conversation,

1003
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: online kind of meme trend thing and and employee resignations

1004
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: is a sub credit called anti work. So the antiwork

1005
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: stub breddit has has been a growing place specifically the

1006
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: past year. UM. Their motto is unemployment for all, not

1007
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: just for the rich. Uh. It's a it's a good mode.

1008
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: Good it is. It is a solid it's a solid

1009
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: botto of their their their own like a description is

1010
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: uh a subundit for those who want to end work,

1011
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: are curious about ending work, want to get the most

1012
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: out of a work free life, want more information on

1013
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: anti work ideas, and want personal help with their own

1014
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 1: jobs slash work related struggles. So back in back in February,

1015
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: um it only the subwart it's been around, but back

1016
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: in February it had like two hundred and thirty five

1017
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: thousand UM subs and now it has over one point

1018
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,359
Speaker 1: one million um it's grown. Most of that growth has

1019
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 1: been in the past two months. Uh. It's in his

1020
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 1: kind of kind of exploded in popularity. Um And actually

1021
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: it got it got so big, and there's so many

1022
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: posts on it that they have to they have they

1023
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: have now they have to like restrict text message conversation

1024
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 1: screenshots to only being allowed to be post to, like

1025
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: on one day a week, just because of the intense

1026
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,720
Speaker 1: influx of of these posts, you know, some of them genuine,

1027
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: others maybe not so much. Um And And even though

1028
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 1: the suburn it may not be the biggest in terms

1029
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: of like subscribers, um, it's it has more like daily

1030
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: posts than something like the Wall Street Bets suburb it has,

1031
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 1: so even though it doesn't have as many subscribers, the

1032
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: amount of actual like posting on it is higher than

1033
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: a lot of other suburates as well. So it is

1034
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: it is growing in popularity, like in in in multiple ways.

1035
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: It feels a little bit right now, like the social

1036
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 1: media equivalent of at of a sort of damole. It's

1037
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: like Wall Street Bets made a not insignificant uh splash

1038
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: earlier this year. It was it was quite a thing

1039
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 1: for the national economy for a little while there. UM

1040
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 1: and Anti Work hasn't had that moment, but I kind

1041
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: of feel like it might be getting close to critical mass,

1042
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,479
Speaker 1: Like something, something might come out of this UM which

1043
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: I think would be rad For for the record, I

1044
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: think would be rad absolutely, And you know, it may

1045
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: not be one big thing, but it could be a

1046
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: lot of smaller things, right. You know, sometimes it's harder

1047
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: to see bigger change when you're like having more anarchist

1048
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,479
Speaker 1: adjacent ideas and and and the and the anti works

1049
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: that when it does, does try to keep itself being

1050
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: a radical subred and does trying to fight off neoliberal

1051
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: sentiments and stuff. And there have been there have been

1052
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: some complaints I've seen of people being like ah, the

1053
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: liberals have gotten in and and people are talking about like, well,

1054
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: I just really want a life that's like I'm not

1055
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: stressed all the time, and I have enough money for

1056
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: for bills and stuff. Like people have been talking about

1057
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: like oh, this job, Like I I left my old

1058
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: job and I got into a better situation that's good.

1059
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: And there's complaints about that. And I think it is

1060
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: important to like push against de radicalizing the subredit. But

1061
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: I don't think it's bad that you're getting a lot

1062
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: of liberals in there who are not turned off by

1063
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: the name anti work UM. And I think that's I

1064
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 1: think it's positive that that there, even if they're you know,

1065
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 1: they're not coming at it from kind of a revolutionary perspective.

1066
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: But hey, it's okay to quit my job if if

1067
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: the conditions your shipped and try to find a place

1068
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: where I'm treated better. If that's their in road to

1069
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: this kind of thought, I still think that's pretty pretty awesome. Yeah, absolutely, yeah,

1070
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: because I mean, it's not realistic for every single person.

1071
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 1: Well and actually it is realistic for every single person

1072
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: to quit their job, but it's it's not realistic for

1073
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: only a few people to write and sometimes if if not,

1074
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 1: if if everyone's not going to do it, like literally everyone,

1075
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: then he knows, some people can't can't afford to quit

1076
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: their job UM right now because they have like kids,

1077
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: defeat or whatever um for themselves or you know, there's

1078
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,440
Speaker 1: a lot there's a lot of reasons, which I'll kind

1079
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 1: of talk a little bit more about later. So and

1080
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: so the term anti work does does not does not

1081
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 1: come from the sub credit um and anti work has

1082
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:56,919
Speaker 1: been like a post left term for a while now

1083
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: and kind of kind of applies to a broad spectrum

1084
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: of like anarchist adjacent kind of thought around. Hey, if

1085
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: we're gonna if we're gonna question like capitalism, uh and

1086
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: the state, we should probably also question just the idea

1087
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 1: of work itself and how it functions, and how the

1088
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: state kind of works only possible with the state, And

1089
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: it's that specific line line of thinking. UM. A few

1090
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: examples of like of like you know, seminal anti work

1091
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: books um is. One of them is Bob Blacks The

1092
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: Abolition of Work. UM. Crime Think has a really good

1093
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: book just called work, which is another another one that

1094
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: gets referenced a lot, even even in the subredit and

1095
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: also Bullshit Jobs by David Graber, and uh, Bullshit Jobs

1096
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: was also kind of partially inspired by Bob Blacks The

1097
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: The Abolition of Work. Um. All of those are are

1098
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: great resources and uh specifically like Bullshit Jobs is great

1099
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: and like a like a for a modern outlook on this,

1100
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 1: like Bob Black's book was written was written a while ago,

1101
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: and Buship Jobs is definitely very timely and even even

1102
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 1: even Crimes Things Work book also also addresses stuff or

1103
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: even though it wasn't not written within the past. I

1104
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 1: think it is maybe slightly older than than a decade,

1105
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: but I think that they are updating it with more

1106
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,439
Speaker 1: information about like the gig economy and stuff like that. Yeah,

1107
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 1: and it's it's not as it's characterized and as as

1108
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 1: anti work is often characterised by critics. It's not saying

1109
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: like nobody should have to do anything in a way.

1110
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: It's not Actually we'll talk about Diogenes later, um, but

1111
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 1: it's not everyone should just like lay around and do nothing.

1112
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: It's people shouldn't have to do the thing that we

1113
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 1: call work, which is destroy your body or your mind

1114
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 1: or both, uh, most of your waking hours, most of

1115
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: your life in the hope that you'll get ten years

1116
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 1: as an old person to not do that, like and

1117
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: and and and a little bit that that that's bad.

1118
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 1: That's a bad way to be a person, like a

1119
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: bad way to have to be And it's not bad

1120
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 1: to do that, it's it's bad that you have to

1121
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, Yeah, And I mean and there is

1122
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: a there is a little bit of it that is

1123
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 1: about finding time to chill out, which which it was

1124
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: just gonna apply a lot of you know, a lot

1125
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 1: of the ways if you have to keep a job,

1126
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, the different ways you can you can go

1127
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 1: about that job that does that makes it so it

1128
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: doesn't like kill you. One of my favorite ways to

1129
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: think about anti work is just like anti capitalism put

1130
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: into actual practice. So it's sort of you know, just

1131
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: debating online about anti capitalism as some you know, future

1132
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: things like no, like what can you do to actually

1133
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, make capitalism less important part of how you

1134
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: live your life every day, which means you know, not

1135
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: obsessing over careers and all these kind of other things.

1136
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 1: So I think I think, first of all, it might

1137
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 1: be useful to kind of think about, like what do

1138
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: we actually mean by work? Because works kind of a

1139
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: works like a it's it has a lot of definitions,

1140
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: depend depending on what's like you depend depending on like

1141
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 1: what you mean by it? Right? Is it just like

1142
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: wage labor? Is it just forced labor? Um? You know,

1143
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: is cooking for yourself or your family considered work? But

1144
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 1: not always? But you know, like at times when I

1145
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:01,439
Speaker 1: when when I where I'm like relaxed, I quite enjoy

1146
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: cooking for friends and family. But but certainly, but certainly

1147
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: it can feel like work sometimes, especially if you especially

1148
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: if you just got home from like a work shift,

1149
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: so in a way like work creates more work. Um,

1150
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,479
Speaker 1: And it's it's not it's it's it kind of it doesn't.

1151
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: It isn't just it isn't just about like wage labor

1152
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 1: or something. It can kind of apply to a lot

1153
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: of ways about how you live your life. You know,

1154
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot of looking laying down wood chips or sad.

1155
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: If that's like your job, every day can be like

1156
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 1: a miserable, backbreaking process. If you actually have a huge

1157
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: yard or like own a little bit of land and

1158
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: you're making your own garden, that can be an intensely

1159
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: like the best part of your week. It can be

1160
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:44,200
Speaker 1: a great Yeah. Yeah, it's it's not. The problem is

1161
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: not the individual tasks necessarily, it's what work is as

1162
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: a as a a platonic kind of concept in our society. Yeah.

1163
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: Not And and again one of the things, and I

1164
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: think this is one of the things speaking of you

1165
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: talked about David Graber earlier, who's an anarchist anthropologist and

1166
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: widely seen to be like one of the most brilliant

1167
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 1: anthropologists of his generation. He did he recently deceased, but

1168
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: a book that he wrote before he died with another

1169
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: and another fellow came out recently called The Dawn of

1170
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: Everything that talks a lot about how, yeah, these ideas,

1171
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 1: that kind of capitalism has a vested interest in you

1172
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 1: believing that the world was always hard in the way

1173
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: that it's hard, by which I mean like, in order

1174
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 1: to get basic necessities, you have to make somebody else

1175
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: rich um or find some grift of your own. And

1176
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 1: as opposed to like, yeah, life is always hard, but

1177
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,919
Speaker 1: life wasn't didn't always involve labor the way we think

1178
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: about it. Labor has not been a constant in human civilization.

1179
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,240
Speaker 1: In fact, most of human civilization people have not done

1180
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 1: a thing that we would recognize as labor. And I

1181
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 1: think also even if you go towards things that like

1182
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: look more like labor to us, right, like I don't know,

1183
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: like look look like if you look at like feudal levies, right,

1184
01:03:58,520 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 1: you're a peasant, you have to get some amount of

1185
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,880
Speaker 1: graintier lord. But like, okay, we work way longer than

1186
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: medieval peasist did. And not only do we work longer,

1187
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: is something Greater and David talk about in that book

1188
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: is like yeah, like, not only do we work much longer,

1189
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 1: Like the amount that we work would have been considered absolutely,

1190
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: Like even even a feudal lord would look at that

1191
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: much work and go no, like this is this is

1192
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 1: this is like and you know, and I think there's

1193
01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 1: there's another great hasn't. As another point, um, he wrote

1194
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: a piece called Turning Modes of Production inside Out where

1195
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: he has this argument that like, okay, so if if

1196
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,280
Speaker 1: you take you know, if you take like Plato, right,

1197
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: you're like, you take any of the Greek philosophers, even

1198
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 1: the conservative ones, and you show them this the thing,

1199
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 1: the thing that we do every day. Right, you're you know,

1200
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 1: you have you're you're completely under the command of another

1201
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 1: person for like at least a third, probably more of

1202
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: your day. Yeah, I monitor you and Garrison's bathroom breaks.

1203
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: I look at your texts with family and friends. Um,

1204
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: it's it's really the situation. Yeah, it's an incredibly strict

1205
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 1: surveillance state. From Robert Evans. Yeah, yeah, this is like like,

1206
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, if you show a Greek person that this

1207
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: is like this is the apocalypse to them, this is

1208
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: this is the worst thing that could possibly happen. It's

1209
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 1: every single person in society has like essentially been reduced

1210
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:23,840
Speaker 1: to a slave, and you know that's bad and it

1211
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,439
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be like it's not that they've been

1212
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: because I want to push back on that terminology because

1213
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 1: it can go to some uncomfortable places. It's not that

1214
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 1: they are treated as a slave. It's that in the

1215
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 1: hours in which they are expected to labor, there's a

1216
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: societal expectation that they act as the property of whoever

1217
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 1: owns the business or manages them. Right. The idea of

1218
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: like if it if it like that attitude from like

1219
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:50,280
Speaker 1: like working in a kitchen or or working at a

1220
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: fast food restaurant, like if you lean, if you're if

1221
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 1: you can lean, you can clean. Like that attitude is

1222
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: saying you do not have any autonomy when you are

1223
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: at work. You are the pretty of the of the

1224
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: employer while you are at work. Um, I think, yeah,

1225
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 1: and I think and I think you know, but I

1226
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: think that's a specific thing with Greece is that, like,

1227
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: you know, you the only way you could do that

1228
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: to someone in Greece is if you owned them. Yeah,

1229
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: Like you know, I'm like the grease has wage labor, right,

1230
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 1: but the only people who like it has wage labor,

1231
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: but it has wage labor for slaves. And that's like

1232
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 1: it right, like this, you know, and this is this

1233
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: isn't like obviously not to say that, like you know,

1234
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: we're like having a job is the same thing as slavery,

1235
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 1: But it's just to say that, like the kinds of

1236
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: things that we think of as normal, like are things

1237
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: that like the people who you know that the people

1238
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: who run the system and the people who you know

1239
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 1: get cited all the time to justify stuff would have

1240
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 1: looked at as like the worst thing that could possibly

1241
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: have happened to a society. Yeah, sure, Like daily life

1242
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 1: for a very substantial chunk of of the American workforce

1243
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: is that would be a nightmare to large percentages of

1244
01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 1: the human population prior to the modern period. It like

1245
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 1: it's it's and and if you think about it that way,

1246
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: Like one of the things Greab does a good job

1247
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 1: of going into UM is like the way in which

1248
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 1: uh and this is also something that comes up in

1249
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: in in Tribe by Younger, the way in which, like,

1250
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 1: during the early period of colonization of North America, UM,

1251
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:25,919
Speaker 1: it was very common for you know, Europeans to leave

1252
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 1: the cities and in towns being established behind um and

1253
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: and join up with indigen the tribes. The reverse never happened,

1254
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 1: like like, not willingly, not without kidnapping being a part

1255
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: of it. Um And it's because like their attitude was,

1256
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: they were looking at the lives these people were living

1257
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: in these cities and like, well, why would you agree

1258
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: to do that? And um, this is turning anyway, Garrison.

1259
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:52,800
Speaker 1: You should you should take us back on the rails.

1260
01:07:52,800 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: This is getting more. But first, you know what has

1261
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the fact that human beings are

1262
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 1: forced to labor for basic necessities in order to keep

1263
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,880
Speaker 1: up a system that steals the freedom of the many

1264
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: in order to provide impossible liberty to the few. You

1265
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: know what isn't related to that, the advertise industrial complex

1266
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: not has nothing to do with it, totally unrelated. Why

1267
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 1: would you say that, Garrison? By the way, did you

1268
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 1: know that McDonald's EEG muffin is turning fifty years old

1269
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 1: and it's giving the breakfast they're they're they're they're selling

1270
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: it for its original price of sixty three cents during

1271
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 1: breakfast hour six a m. To ten thirty am, exclusively

1272
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: on the McDonald's app. I can't. I can't do you guys?

1273
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 1: Do you guys want to mcmuffins for sixty three cents?

1274
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 1: That's the original price. I wonder what else the McDonald's

1275
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 1: app is looking at on my phone. Anyway, here's some mats.

1276
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: Oh we're back and we're talking about anti work. We're

1277
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,679
Speaker 1: talking about how works kind of bullshit for our jobs.

1278
01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, sure are we sure are? So you know,

1279
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: like there is there there's a lot of people who

1280
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,680
Speaker 1: like enjoy stuff like gardening, fishing, carpentry, cooking, and even

1281
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: like you know, just fighting this fighting computer programming just

1282
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:14,880
Speaker 1: for their own sake. Like a lot of the stuff

1283
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 1: that we like, quote unquote needs to need for uh

1284
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 1: society to function, A lot lot of those things people

1285
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,879
Speaker 1: like doing as hobbies in their spirits. For for example,

1286
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 1: if you're a police officer, gunning down a man in

1287
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: cold blood might be kind of like your day job

1288
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:30,880
Speaker 1: and like frustrating, and there's a lot of ship you

1289
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:32,960
Speaker 1: have to deal with. If you're a mash shooter, though,

1290
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: you just love it. You know, you're just doing It's

1291
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 1: that is that is exactly what the cow writtenhouse thing

1292
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,879
Speaker 1: is though like like like like like actually like literally

1293
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 1: that that that is what it is. This is we

1294
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:48,679
Speaker 1: I mean, we're not going to get the verdict today.

1295
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't look like not today, which is a bad sign.

1296
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,600
Speaker 1: But by the time this airs, it may already be done. Um.

1297
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 1: But anyway, like a lot a lot of people like

1298
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: doing those things without getting paid. And sometimes you know,

1299
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: often like cast sing themselves money, right, A lot of

1300
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 1: these hobbies are you know, are costly in their own

1301
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,759
Speaker 1: in their own right, um. And I think it's interesting

1302
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: to you know, think, think of a society where you're

1303
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,760
Speaker 1: where you're free to do those things when you feel

1304
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 1: like it, and you don't need to drag yourself out

1305
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 1: of bed at you know, early in the morning to work,

1306
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: to work a ten hour shift as a cash register.

1307
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: And it's not just even when you feel like it,

1308
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 1: because there will be things that you have to do,

1309
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 1: even if I will discuss this letter to get yeah, yeah, yeah,

1310
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 1: in any like yeah, but it's not it's it's not

1311
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:31,679
Speaker 1: work if you're if you're going out and harvesting food

1312
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 1: that feeds you in your community, that's not like work

1313
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 1: in the sense that we talk about modern work. The

1314
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: amount of extra energy we have by not having ten

1315
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: hour horrible shifts that drain ourselves mentally and physically and

1316
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 1: more in with you know, the amount of most of

1317
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 1: the work that we people do, as shown in David

1318
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,640
Speaker 1: Graper's bull bullshit Jobs, is like not necessary, like a

1319
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: lot of like a lot of the work that we

1320
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:58,879
Speaker 1: do as a whole is not There's there's some squibbling

1321
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: about because the book was based off of a study,

1322
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 1: like a survey that kind of showed a lot of

1323
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:06,200
Speaker 1: very significant chunk of the workforce thinks their job is

1324
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: like pointless and doesn't do anything. And there's been some

1325
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 1: criticisms of that, but it is undoubted that a very

1326
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,800
Speaker 1: significant amount of total labor time spent is stuff that

1327
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 1: isn't necessary for really like reason of like making people's

1328
01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 1: lives better. And another part of like anti work theories

1329
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: is looking is looking at our society as it's built,

1330
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, because it is it is hid to anarchism,

1331
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 1: and be like how much of this is actually necessary?

1332
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 1: Like how do we do we really need a mac rib?

1333
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 1: Like do we do we do? What do you what

1334
01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:42,879
Speaker 1: do you Garrison? We do not? Well, hr need a macrib?

1335
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:50,320
Speaker 1: We do not. I did the company training and they

1336
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:53,559
Speaker 1: the company training says you can't attack someone for their religion,

1337
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: and Garrison just attacked the McRib So that actually is

1338
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, it is a religion for a lot of people.

1339
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 1: Did you see that there there they they they did

1340
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:04,840
Speaker 1: sell a MicroB n ft a few weeks ago. Um

1341
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:12,440
Speaker 1: and tell me that ship that is so upsetting thank god. Yeah, yeah,

1342
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 1: just saying society with no money would not so gosh.

1343
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 1: But you know, think thinking of like anti work as

1344
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: as the theory. You know, it's about cutting down those

1345
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: those unnecessary things that fill people's time. Um. And you

1346
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: know and for a more you know, forward forward looking sense.

1347
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 1: It's it's a general kind of like like abolition of

1348
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 1: the producer and consumer based society um. So you know,

1349
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,320
Speaker 1: life is not dedicated to the production and consumption of

1350
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: goods and commodities. So you know this this applies not

1351
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 1: not just a capitalism, but also to you know, like

1352
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:50,120
Speaker 1: state socialism um, where you know, work is still you

1353
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 1: know a big part of state socialism UM. And I

1354
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 1: think you know it's humans. It's it's it posits the

1355
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 1: future that humans can be way way way more free

1356
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,639
Speaker 1: when you know, can reclaim their time from jobs and employment, um,

1357
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 1: instead of you know, spending a lot of their time

1358
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 1: doing that than spending spending a lot of like not

1359
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 1: not just time, but also just like their energy. Right

1360
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 1: because even if you work, you know, eight hours a day,

1361
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 1: you still have a majority of the day to yourself.

1362
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 1: But you're exhausted. You can't do man, you can't do

1363
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,599
Speaker 1: much right. It's it drains you of everything. So, you know,

1364
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:23,680
Speaker 1: the main point one of the main points of like

1365
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 1: of the abolition of work, I say by Bob Black

1366
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 1: is but like there's no one should work because because

1367
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 1: work is as defined as like as like as like

1368
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 1: a forced labor practice. Um is. You can kind of

1369
01:13:36,880 --> 01:13:39,040
Speaker 1: track this to being the source of most of the

1370
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: mystery in the world from you know, in in individual people, um,

1371
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 1: who are forced to do this Like this is where

1372
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of their pain comes from.

1373
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:52,640
Speaker 1: Um is this idea is this is this forced labor concept?

1374
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 1: Um I think I think a good a good way

1375
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 1: you know, there is you know, the point that Robert

1376
01:13:57,439 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: brought up earlier is like, you know, what about the

1377
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 1: tasks that aren't fun? You know, what about what about

1378
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 1: the stuff that isn't isn't maybe as as enjoyable. Um,

1379
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's, there's there's there's a list of list

1380
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 1: of things that the standard who's going to clean up

1381
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:15,200
Speaker 1: the poop? That's that's the thing. So you know, I

1382
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 1: I kind of I I kind of I kind of

1383
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:19,960
Speaker 1: look at this as like the I kind of kind

1384
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 1: of look at this as like, whenever I have to

1385
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,360
Speaker 1: like turn the compost, which is not my favorite thing

1386
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:27,320
Speaker 1: to do. I I don't look forward to having to

1387
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: turn over our massive, shitty, rotting compost pile. Not not

1388
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:40,519
Speaker 1: my favorite thing. Um. But no, but now like if

1389
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 1: there's if if there's like friends around and we're playing

1390
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 1: music and we're all we have like some like have

1391
01:14:45,920 --> 01:14:48,000
Speaker 1: I have have like an iced tea or a dr pepper,

1392
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: and we're like talking as we're turning the compost, it's

1393
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 1: a lot more doable, you know. It's there's there's it's

1394
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: it's it's one task that's going to help all of

1395
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 1: us in the future. Um and I'm not getting watched

1396
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 1: over by a boss to fill a certain quote so

1397
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 1: I can pay my rent. Right. It's it's this. It's this,

1398
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:09,080
Speaker 1: it's this thing that helps everybody and I and I

1399
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:12,640
Speaker 1: do it because I want I want the goal of

1400
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: it to succeed. So there's there's there's gonna there's always

1401
01:15:16,479 --> 01:15:18,560
Speaker 1: gonna be tasks that are less pleasant than others. You know,

1402
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,320
Speaker 1: what we can do is, you know, imagine a world

1403
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:23,080
Speaker 1: where the amount of work actually needed to be done

1404
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 1: is greatly reduced so that the tasks that are necessary

1405
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,360
Speaker 1: and some of them unpleasant, can be spread out, um

1406
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 1: and among more people, because less people will be wasting

1407
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:34,559
Speaker 1: upwards of eight hours a day, five days a week

1408
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:39,320
Speaker 1: doing mostly pointless time filling work. Because yeah, there's there's

1409
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 1: there's gonna be things that sucked, and we'll be able

1410
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:45,000
Speaker 1: to do those a lot better if there's more people

1411
01:15:45,400 --> 01:15:48,599
Speaker 1: and we don't have to waste our times doing stuff

1412
01:15:48,600 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 1: that is is honestly a lot more bullshit than actually

1413
01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 1: scooping bullshit. Wow, what a good joke. Speaking, it's it's

1414
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 1: time to scoop up some more ads. Wait, really, haven't

1415
01:16:04,439 --> 01:16:08,160
Speaker 1: we done too? No, we only only did one. All right,

1416
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 1: we went a while without doing one. Guys, listen to

1417
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:17,240
Speaker 1: the products because everyone loves a service. It's not like

1418
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 1: the thing we're talking about is bad. It's different than that.

1419
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 1: So it's fine. Yep, we're back, and we're still still

1420
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: talking about anti work, Um, I do. This is something

1421
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:29,720
Speaker 1: that the Crime Think workbook points out, and you know,

1422
01:16:29,720 --> 01:16:32,120
Speaker 1: it's a pretty it's pretty obvious thing I've I've certainly

1423
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 1: thought of this before, is that you know, we've been

1424
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 1: told that the like technological progress will soon liberate humanity

1425
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:40,160
Speaker 1: from the need to do work or from you know,

1426
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 1: having to do work as much um. And today we

1427
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 1: have the capabilities that you know, our ancestors couldn't have

1428
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:47,840
Speaker 1: even imagined for free, the amount of work that we

1429
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 1: could get done. Um. But these predictions still like aren't true.

1430
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 1: We're still working more than ever. Even though we have

1431
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 1: developed so much um technologically, we're still working more than ever.

1432
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 1: And if I think it's silly to think that well,

1433
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 1: well will reach like a magic threshold where somehow now

1434
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 1: we have less work to do because we'll have like

1435
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:08,640
Speaker 1: I don't like robots being a server Adam Adam McDonald's

1436
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 1: or whatever. Right where there's still there, there's still is

1437
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:14,559
Speaker 1: forcing people into this thing because this is the only

1438
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 1: way that we can live. Right. This is we've we've

1439
01:17:16,880 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 1: built our whole society around getting work for money. So

1440
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:24,639
Speaker 1: this is the only the only thing that we can do. Yeah,

1441
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,559
Speaker 1: David creeper. One of the things he's argues in Bullshit

1442
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 1: Jobs is that basically, you know, okay, so so if

1443
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 1: if you have like you have the Soviet economy, right, okay,

1444
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: so the Soviet economy has has a policy of of

1445
01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:39,439
Speaker 1: full employment. And for a little bit they were like, okay,

1446
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:41,160
Speaker 1: what if we make everyone work less? And then they

1447
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: stopped and then like everything went to ship. So you know, okay,

1448
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:47,080
Speaker 1: but if if if you can't make people work less

1449
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 1: hours and everyone has to work, what do you do?

1450
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 1: It was like, okay, well you pay a bunch of

1451
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:54,800
Speaker 1: people to like stand at a doorway. Right now, we

1452
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:57,760
Speaker 1: also do this And then one of the gres like

1453
01:17:58,280 --> 01:18:00,200
Speaker 1: the funniest points that he brings up is that the

1454
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 1: the total number of bureaucrats in the x USS are

1455
01:18:02,720 --> 01:18:08,080
Speaker 1: like increased dramatically after the sr fell, which is incredible.

1456
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 1: And you know what what Ap points to is that, like, yeah,

1457
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:14,040
Speaker 1: you know, Grebar called this total bureaucratization, which is that

1458
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:16,080
Speaker 1: you know what, what we did, instead of like giving

1459
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:19,719
Speaker 1: ourselves more free time, is created this just like endless, enormous,

1460
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 1: incredibly violent bureaucracy that all of us have to spend

1461
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 1: all of our time, like dealing with bullshit from our

1462
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:29,799
Speaker 1: insurance companies and like fighting with like the Comcast service

1463
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 1: person and all of this just like you know, incredibly

1464
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 1: violent to humanizing stuff that you know, it's it's it's

1465
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 1: a make work program, right, it's but it's a make

1466
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:44,439
Speaker 1: work program that just the work that it makes everyone

1467
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:47,760
Speaker 1: is making everyone's lives miserable. And we could just not

1468
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:54,599
Speaker 1: do this. Mh yeah, I mean we could. It's always

1469
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:58,160
Speaker 1: more complicated than that, right, because the thing that is

1470
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: when we talk about anti work, I think that's the

1471
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:01,800
Speaker 1: other side of this is like Okay, well, what if

1472
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:03,960
Speaker 1: you get a kid, how are you going to feed

1473
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:05,840
Speaker 1: that kid? Like what if? Like yeah, how are you

1474
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 1: going to keep him in a house? Like how this

1475
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 1: is not even just if you have a kid, but like, yeah,

1476
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 1: you people die in our society when they do not

1477
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 1: have access to adequate resources. And the only way to

1478
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 1: have access to adequate resources is to be born rich

1479
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 1: or to work. Those are your options. Yeah, that is

1480
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,080
Speaker 1: why without without robust mutual aid and the commitment by

1481
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: a lot of people to try to make sure that

1482
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: a lifestyle is sustainable outside of you know, this system,

1483
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:33,479
Speaker 1: Like it's not impossible, but it's somewhere along the line

1484
01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:35,559
Speaker 1: there has to be input. I mean, yeah, like we've

1485
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 1: been talking about Yeah, we've been talking about antiwork as

1486
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 1: like as kind of like a broad hopeful like future

1487
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:45,840
Speaker 1: goal in some other you know, post scarcity. Well not

1488
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 1: not post scarcity, but like it's post like a post crumbling,

1489
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 1: post kind of collapse future. But I think you know,

1490
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 1: for us now, as you know, the antiworks is about

1491
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,880
Speaker 1: people now, right, the antiworks it is not about a

1492
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 1: future world. I think the anti work now is like

1493
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,439
Speaker 1: an alternative to the obsession with living your life with

1494
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: the goal of a career. Yes, it's about true, you know,

1495
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:12,080
Speaker 1: it's it's like a project to radically reframe the how

1496
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 1: we think of work and leisure. Um, it's like like

1497
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:18,640
Speaker 1: like like a cognitive antidote to like the like this

1498
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 1: culture of like hustle and hard work, which is like

1499
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:24,560
Speaker 1: taken over our minds and and and our time. So

1500
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:27,599
Speaker 1: it's like for for those who can't just resign from

1501
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 1: their job for whatever reason, whatever moment, the anti work

1502
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:33,400
Speaker 1: is about like thinking of this movement as like the

1503
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:37,400
Speaker 1: antithesis to the mainstream capitalist hustle culture. You know that

1504
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:40,639
Speaker 1: that includes like slacking off more finding ways to waste time,

1505
01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 1: possibly even finding ways to steal or scam your boss.

1506
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 1: I I've I've read certain certain alleged ways of doing

1507
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:53,559
Speaker 1: this inside the Anti Work for Days where they got

1508
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,000
Speaker 1: it from. But yeah no, but like you no, like

1509
01:20:56,160 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 1: there is you know, like ways to like scam scam

1510
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:00,120
Speaker 1: whatever corporation you work for. Right that that there's has

1511
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 1: been examples shared in the anti right in the anti works.

1512
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:05,760
Speaker 1: So you know, it's about actually like finding, you know,

1513
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:07,799
Speaker 1: making sure that you hate your work because you should,

1514
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:10,040
Speaker 1: and then figuring out how to live your life with

1515
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 1: that in mind. And I think, what, what are the

1516
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 1: really hard parts about this? Is for people who like

1517
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:17,000
Speaker 1: kind of like their job, people people who are like

1518
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,599
Speaker 1: you think who like either like their job or think

1519
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 1: it's like kind of important or like they're special to

1520
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: have it, right, it's like, oh, you're like, I'm lucky

1521
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:25,680
Speaker 1: to have such a good job, because like, when you're

1522
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,400
Speaker 1: stuck in that mindset, you can often put in like

1523
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:31,720
Speaker 1: a lot of extra unpaid labor because you think it's

1524
01:21:31,720 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 1: important because you're like, oh, no, this is worth doing

1525
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:36,160
Speaker 1: because it's gonna have some like benefits to the world.

1526
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 1: So you end up like putting in actually more work

1527
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:40,599
Speaker 1: that you don't actually get paid for, and like it's

1528
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 1: about trying to like kill that instinct as well. So

1529
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,439
Speaker 1: that's a whole, a whole way to think about like working,

1530
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 1: because like we're gonna be stuck, A lot of people

1531
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 1: are gonna be stuck doing it for for for a while.

1532
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:52,479
Speaker 1: So how can you kind of reframe what we do

1533
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: on the job and how kind of jobs live in

1534
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: our minds when we are at home. And I think

1535
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:00,879
Speaker 1: the best thing about what you've said, in my opinion,

1536
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:05,280
Speaker 1: is the idea that like this is not the importance

1537
01:22:05,439 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 1: is not on whether or not this this causes everyone

1538
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:11,400
Speaker 1: to stop having to work immediately, like whether or not

1539
01:22:11,439 --> 01:22:15,479
Speaker 1: it leads to you know, directly to like the measure

1540
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:17,840
Speaker 1: of success of this movement isn't that nobody ever has

1541
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:20,479
Speaker 1: to work again. That's a that's a long term goal.

1542
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:22,639
Speaker 1: The measure of the success of this movement is that

1543
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: people accept in mass that no, the American dream as

1544
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,439
Speaker 1: it's sold to people is not a good thing too.

1545
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:32,160
Speaker 1: It's not a thing. To aspire to work is bullshit,

1546
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:34,519
Speaker 1: and we should aspire to a society that doesn't do it.

1547
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:37,760
Speaker 1: It's getting back honestly, Like it's getting back to some

1548
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 1: of the ship that people were talking about in like

1549
01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:42,599
Speaker 1: when The Jetsons was on TV, the idea that like, well,

1550
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 1: with labor saving devices, the like a hard work week

1551
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 1: will be four hours and like that's the way life

1552
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:50,880
Speaker 1: will be for everybody, and like, um, and the it's

1553
01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 1: the acceptance that like, no, a better future involves me

1554
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 1: not having it. Mouls no one having to spend forty

1555
01:22:57,080 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 1: hours a week of their limited human life working at

1556
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:03,919
Speaker 1: a fucking sonic or like listening to some middle manager

1557
01:23:04,040 --> 01:23:07,599
Speaker 1: brate them for not answering phones fast enough. Um, that

1558
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 1: doesn't exist for any human being in a world that

1559
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:13,320
Speaker 1: is achievable and better than the one that we live in.

1560
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:16,040
Speaker 1: Like convincing people of that and getting that to be

1561
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:19,720
Speaker 1: widely accepted is I think? What I think? What is

1562
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:22,000
Speaker 1: what I would consider the terms of victory in in

1563
01:23:22,040 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 1: this particular struggle. Yeah, kind of moving on from this

1564
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:28,720
Speaker 1: side of things into like the Great Resignation and the

1565
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,519
Speaker 1: other kind of things that people are doing so um.

1566
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: In August alone, four point three million Americans voluntarily left

1567
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 1: their jobs um, and the rate of people quitting increased

1568
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 1: to a a decent A decent record high of like

1569
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,680
Speaker 1: a two point nine percent according to the Bureau of

1570
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:50,680
Speaker 1: Labor and Statistics. So and this this, this, this has

1571
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 1: been a growing trend. You can look at like I

1572
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 1: think June was like a like a little under four million.

1573
01:23:55,760 --> 01:23:57,800
Speaker 1: August was four point three. It's like it was you know,

1574
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,479
Speaker 1: it's it's ramping. I don't know what if. I don't

1575
01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:02,760
Speaker 1: know if we have data for September or October. Yet

1576
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:06,439
Speaker 1: this was the most recent one I could find. Um, So, yeah,

1577
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:09,240
Speaker 1: like it's stuff. Stuff is, stuff is going up. People

1578
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 1: are because because people are like a big part of

1579
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:14,120
Speaker 1: the antiborks. It's like, yeah, if your job sucks, you

1580
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:16,559
Speaker 1: can quit it and probably find another one that pays

1581
01:24:16,600 --> 01:24:20,599
Speaker 1: better in decent time, especially especially especially right now, like

1582
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 1: right now, if your job is really terrible, you have

1583
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:25,720
Speaker 1: a decent chance of finding a better one. Um. This

1584
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,200
Speaker 1: wasn't the case like two years ago. Um it is

1585
01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 1: the case that at this moment, so a lot of

1586
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:32,639
Speaker 1: the antiporksbre and it's like, yeah, quit your job, like

1587
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:35,800
Speaker 1: say fuck you to your boss and leave because if

1588
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:38,880
Speaker 1: they're being shitty then they don't deserve to have you. Um.

1589
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:41,360
Speaker 1: So resigning has it has been been a big part

1590
01:24:41,400 --> 01:24:44,720
Speaker 1: of this, and there has there has been attempts at

1591
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:47,880
Speaker 1: other kind of organized stuff, and this kind of falls

1592
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 1: into In my opinion, this kind of falls into the

1593
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:53,920
Speaker 1: same kind of traps as sole internet organizing kind of

1594
01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 1: always does. So the big thing that they're organizing for

1595
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:00,680
Speaker 1: is called Black Friday Blackout, which is about kind of

1596
01:25:00,680 --> 01:25:03,679
Speaker 1: trying to get everyone to as many people as possible

1597
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,479
Speaker 1: to not work Black Friday, um and not buy anything

1598
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:09,320
Speaker 1: on Black Friday. UM. So, like a post from the

1599
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:11,840
Speaker 1: suburb of here is like spread the word call in sick.

1600
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 1: If you're forced to work black on Black Friday, spend

1601
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:16,280
Speaker 1: time with your family instead, remain at home and participate

1602
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,680
Speaker 1: in your favorite activity on Friday November. Talk to your

1603
01:25:19,680 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 1: family and friends about about your work life struggles. Pass

1604
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:26,880
Speaker 1: up flyers, join our slash anti work UM. So this

1605
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:28,439
Speaker 1: is you know, I think this kind of falls into

1606
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:31,479
Speaker 1: this seem like you know, general strike organized online stuff

1607
01:25:31,520 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 1: that we talked about before, how kind of like a

1608
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:35,600
Speaker 1: lack of like real like in person solidarity and like

1609
01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:39,120
Speaker 1: non internet you know, networking and organizing results and stuff

1610
01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:41,040
Speaker 1: like this just you know, like proposed like one day

1611
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:45,080
Speaker 1: strikes or actions that are ultimately kind of non effectual, right,

1612
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:47,920
Speaker 1: Like they can be like a good symbol sometimes, but

1613
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:49,800
Speaker 1: like you know, they're not. It's it's it's not, it's

1614
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:52,760
Speaker 1: not really gonna matter that much, even even if it works. Well,

1615
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:55,240
Speaker 1: what I think it'd be cool if literally no store

1616
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:57,240
Speaker 1: was open on Black Friday because everyone quit. Yeah, that

1617
01:25:57,280 --> 01:25:59,599
Speaker 1: would be rad. But that's that's not I don't that's

1618
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,800
Speaker 1: not gonna really happen. Um. It would be fun if

1619
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:04,960
Speaker 1: it did, but like, realistically, it's it's not, it's not

1620
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 1: gonna happen. And there is people on the subred who

1621
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 1: also point this out there there there there was there

1622
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 1: was a reply to this post that was like, oh,

1623
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:13,920
Speaker 1: look another online call for a general strike with no

1624
01:26:14,040 --> 01:26:16,920
Speaker 1: union support whatsoever. Don't worry y'all. This one's this one

1625
01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:19,519
Speaker 1: is definitely gonna work. Um. So it's like, yeah, like

1626
01:26:19,880 --> 01:26:22,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people in the sub also recognize that,

1627
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:26,040
Speaker 1: like without like actual like organizing support um and in

1628
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:28,559
Speaker 1: person stuff and you know networks to support people on

1629
01:26:28,600 --> 01:26:31,599
Speaker 1: like you know, lengthy strikes. These types of things are

1630
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:35,320
Speaker 1: kind of are mostly symbolic actions that will have, you know,

1631
01:26:36,240 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 1: in the end, little little impact. Um. They may make

1632
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:43,600
Speaker 1: you feel powerful as you're doing them, which is you know,

1633
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 1: which is good. That is a lot of activism is

1634
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:50,240
Speaker 1: actually just just about you feeling powerful in that moment um.

1635
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:52,680
Speaker 1: But you know, as as an end goals, remember it's

1636
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 1: important to be remember to think like it's not it's

1637
01:26:55,320 --> 01:26:58,160
Speaker 1: that this isn't you know, this isn't gonna reach whatever

1638
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 1: anti work utopia, which I I know people people organizing

1639
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:04,320
Speaker 1: it aren't thinking that, but you know, it's it's it's

1640
01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 1: important to keep this within context of like the limits

1641
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 1: of even of of online organizing. You know, so a

1642
01:27:10,280 --> 01:27:12,479
Speaker 1: lot a lot of people like recommend you know, focusing

1643
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:16,240
Speaker 1: on organizing your own workplace and community, um, discussing you know,

1644
01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 1: discussing having discussions with with unions kind of in in

1645
01:27:20,840 --> 01:27:24,720
Speaker 1: your area. Um and yeah, a part of part of,

1646
01:27:24,720 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 1: part of kind of the part of the reply to

1647
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:30,599
Speaker 1: to this original like a Black Friday blackout post that

1648
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:35,120
Speaker 1: that someone that someone wrote was was seriously though, I

1649
01:27:35,160 --> 01:27:37,200
Speaker 1: would love for an actual general strike to kick off,

1650
01:27:37,240 --> 01:27:39,919
Speaker 1: but these online calls for general strikes with no union involvement,

1651
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:42,800
Speaker 1: no demands, no supports for strikers of any kind, no

1652
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:46,719
Speaker 1: nothing whatsoever beyond social media hashtags don't do anything focus

1653
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 1: on organizing or workplace any community discussed with unions which

1654
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:53,040
Speaker 1: might be sympathetic to what criteria, uh, what criteria they

1655
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:55,479
Speaker 1: might need from such a drastic action. There's a lot

1656
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:57,599
Speaker 1: of unions on strike right now, so if there ever

1657
01:27:57,680 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 1: was the time to kick one off, it's now. Most

1658
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:01,599
Speaker 1: general strikes in the past and started off with specific

1659
01:28:01,640 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 1: strikes that started pulling in other union the Neians and

1660
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:07,840
Speaker 1: solidarity than anything else. Focus on that and we might

1661
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:09,720
Speaker 1: get somewhere. I think it is it's a decent is

1662
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:12,480
Speaker 1: a decent advice for the people who are really dedicated

1663
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 1: onto this kind of like general strike thing is Yeah,

1664
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:17,840
Speaker 1: that is that is that is um pretty pretty good

1665
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:21,679
Speaker 1: advice in in my opinion, I want to see something

1666
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:24,400
Speaker 1: kind of briefly just in general about general strikes because

1667
01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:28,120
Speaker 1: I think we've talked about it a lot on here,

1668
01:28:28,240 --> 01:28:31,880
Speaker 1: but they're really really hard. I mean there there, there's

1669
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 1: there's an example, like and like just to just to

1670
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:36,320
Speaker 1: get a picture of like how how actually hard it

1671
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:38,320
Speaker 1: is to pull off. There was there was one in

1672
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:41,760
Speaker 1: Sudan in in summer nineteen and you know, I mean

1673
01:28:41,760 --> 01:28:43,720
Speaker 1: this is this is in the middle of the revolution, right,

1674
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:48,679
Speaker 1: the like Sudan is incredibly highly organized, as incredibly built,

1675
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:51,200
Speaker 1: and people have been like you know, I mean, people

1676
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:54,519
Speaker 1: like the like the chance in the street is like,

1677
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:58,040
Speaker 1: you cannot kill us, were already dead, like you know

1678
01:28:58,640 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 1: they and you know, and and it's the whole revolution

1679
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:03,760
Speaker 1: is being led by the Student Professional Association, which is

1680
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:07,320
Speaker 1: an association of like seventeen trade unions. Right, so this

1681
01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:11,280
Speaker 1: this is a population that is enormously better organized than

1682
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:15,320
Speaker 1: like anything really that exists in the US. And you know,

1683
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:16,960
Speaker 1: in in the middle of the summer of the army

1684
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:19,920
Speaker 1: opens fire and starts killing protesters, and so they call

1685
01:29:20,040 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 1: general strike, and you know, the turnout is massive, right,

1686
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 1: they have millions, millions upon millions of people show up

1687
01:29:24,960 --> 01:29:29,000
Speaker 1: to the strike, and on day one it's successful. And

1688
01:29:29,040 --> 01:29:31,160
Speaker 1: then on day two of the strike, people start having

1689
01:29:31,160 --> 01:29:32,759
Speaker 1: to pull out, especially people in the in formal sector,

1690
01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 1: because even with the level of organization they have, they

1691
01:29:34,479 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 1: can't support everyone. And by about day three, most of

1692
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:40,760
Speaker 1: the strike is collapsed because even even with levels of

1693
01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:44,120
Speaker 1: organization they had, even with you know, the coordination, even

1694
01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:45,640
Speaker 1: with the fact that they're in the middle of the revolution,

1695
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:49,320
Speaker 1: they just they couldn't support particularly people in the informal sector.

1696
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:54,960
Speaker 1: So this stuff is really really really hard, and yeah,

1697
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:57,559
Speaker 1: it is even it is definitely hard. Yeah, Like even

1698
01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:01,800
Speaker 1: even highly organized, highly motivated people who are you know,

1699
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:05,679
Speaker 1: like literally willing to fight to the death will lose.

1700
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:08,320
Speaker 1: And that's that's something that you have to sort of

1701
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:10,519
Speaker 1: keep in minds, I think when you're talking about this,

1702
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:12,640
Speaker 1: because a lot of people are more focused on the

1703
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:16,000
Speaker 1: kind of their individual resignations, finding other ways of making money,

1704
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:18,040
Speaker 1: and just slacking off at work in general, because those

1705
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:20,280
Speaker 1: are a lot a lot easier than trying to organize

1706
01:30:20,280 --> 01:30:22,800
Speaker 1: a general a mass general strike right now. And I

1707
01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 1: think one of the really optimistic things about this whole

1708
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:29,040
Speaker 1: anti work thing, including including the subreun is that it

1709
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:32,479
Speaker 1: has made some big executives kind of nervous. Um. There

1710
01:30:32,600 --> 01:30:36,440
Speaker 1: was a fantastic article by Yahoo Finance. Now by fantastic,

1711
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:39,600
Speaker 1: I mean funny for me. You know, they did not

1712
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:43,000
Speaker 1: think it was as funny um about They talked with

1713
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:48,439
Speaker 1: like the Golden Sacks CEO of and uh and they

1714
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:52,920
Speaker 1: pointed to the anti work separated of being what was

1715
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:56,639
Speaker 1: the what was the phrase, um, A long run risk

1716
01:30:57,080 --> 01:31:03,160
Speaker 1: to to labor force participation good. This is see that

1717
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:05,479
Speaker 1: that when I first read that in the article, I

1718
01:31:05,600 --> 01:31:08,640
Speaker 1: just like flashed to my head in my head to

1719
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 1: that scene from Starship Troopers where Neil Patrick Harris puts

1720
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 1: his hand on the brain bug, it goes, it's afraid,

1721
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 1: It's afraid. Yeah, yeah, he said, Uh, we see some

1722
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:24,280
Speaker 1: risk that workers were elected will elect to maintain out

1723
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:26,920
Speaker 1: of the workforce for longer, provided they can afford to

1724
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:31,800
Speaker 1: do so. Of pretty pretty good stuff and and and

1725
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 1: everything that's worth mentioning that hasn't been talked about very

1726
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,920
Speaker 1: much is that So this is actually kind of working

1727
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:41,800
Speaker 1: in some sense, Like the last few months general, last

1728
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:44,599
Speaker 1: few months particular have seen basically like the highest levels

1729
01:31:44,680 --> 01:31:49,160
Speaker 1: of wage increases that we've seen in decades. So you know, like, yeah,

1730
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,360
Speaker 1: we haven't overthrown capitalism yet, but like if you can

1731
01:31:52,439 --> 01:31:54,840
Speaker 1: keep quitting your job, keep quitting your job at at

1732
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:59,200
Speaker 1: your regular job, work less, keep doing it, it's working. Yeah,

1733
01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:02,880
Speaker 1: this is stuff wish we need to in the future.

1734
01:32:03,080 --> 01:32:05,439
Speaker 1: I would like us to be focusing more on stuff

1735
01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:08,000
Speaker 1: like that like this. That is legitimately, as you point out, Chris,

1736
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:10,439
Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons to be very optimistic about

1737
01:32:10,479 --> 01:32:13,640
Speaker 1: about some of the numbers that we're getting from what

1738
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: is happening to labor right now? UM, and it is

1739
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:20,719
Speaker 1: important as we all like right now we're all miserable

1740
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:23,160
Speaker 1: because we're sweating through the rittenhouse case, it is important

1741
01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:25,519
Speaker 1: to talk about stuff like that that like, yeah, some

1742
01:32:25,560 --> 01:32:28,960
Speaker 1: ship people is doing is hitting a home. Some motherfucker's

1743
01:32:28,960 --> 01:32:32,960
Speaker 1: have found the glowy vulnerable spot on the Boss Monster

1744
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:37,799
Speaker 1: and it's it's yeah, it's just not working. Yeah. Like again,

1745
01:32:38,240 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 1: as we started the series with, like yeah, General Strike

1746
01:32:41,160 --> 01:32:45,240
Speaker 1: is is kind of the best available solution um or

1747
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:49,320
Speaker 1: a path to a solution that I can find. Um

1748
01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: But anyway, uh what what what what? What? What else?

1749
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:54,840
Speaker 1: I think that that does it for us today? I

1750
01:32:54,880 --> 01:33:04,080
Speaker 1: know special special like sequel stuff happening. Uh so tune

1751
01:33:04,080 --> 01:33:07,839
Speaker 1: in tomorrow for our list work in China, and like

1752
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 1: like all of the best sequels, this one will be

1753
01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:14,640
Speaker 1: directed by James Cameron. UM. So we're all very excited

1754
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:17,360
Speaker 1: to bring our pal James onto the pod, to bring

1755
01:33:17,360 --> 01:33:20,919
Speaker 1: our pal James and the reanimated corpse of Stan Winston.

1756
01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:24,160
Speaker 1: Um it's going to be amazing. So check it out

1757
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:35,840
Speaker 1: by everybody. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the New York

1758
01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:39,840
Speaker 1: Times bestseller fair Play and find your Unicorn space activists

1759
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:43,000
Speaker 1: on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator.

1760
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:46,240
Speaker 1: And I'm Dr adding A Rucar, a Harvard physician and

1761
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:50,040
Speaker 1: medical correspondent with an expertise and the science of stress, resilience,

1762
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:53,280
Speaker 1: mental health and burnout. We're so excited to share our

1763
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:56,880
Speaker 1: podcast Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and

1764
01:33:56,960 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine. We're uncovering why society makes it so hard

1765
01:34:00,840 --> 01:34:03,560
Speaker 1: for women to treat their time with the value it deserves.

1766
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:07,240
Speaker 1: So take this time out with us. Listen to Time Out,

1767
01:34:07,479 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 1: a fair play podcast on the I Heart Radio app,

1768
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. After thirty years,

1769
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:19,439
Speaker 1: it's time to return to the halls of West Beverly

1770
01:34:19,520 --> 01:34:21,519
Speaker 1: High and hang out at the peach pit. On the

1771
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:24,960
Speaker 1: podcast nine O two one OMG joined Jenny Garth and

1772
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 1: Tori Spelling for a rewatch of the hit series Beverly

1773
01:34:28,000 --> 01:34:30,320
Speaker 1: Hills nine O two one oh. From the very beginning,

1774
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,719
Speaker 1: we get to tell the fans all of the behind

1775
01:34:33,760 --> 01:34:36,360
Speaker 1: the scenes stories to actually happen, so they know what

1776
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:39,360
Speaker 1: happened on camera obviously, but we can tell them all

1777
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:41,439
Speaker 1: the good stuff that happened off camera. Get all the

1778
01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:44,599
Speaker 1: juicy details of every episode that you've been wondering about

1779
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:47,120
Speaker 1: for decades. As nine O two one oh, super fan

1780
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 1: and radio host Sissany sits in with Jenny and Tory

1781
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:53,880
Speaker 1: two reminisce, reflect and relive each moment, from Brandon and

1782
01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:57,680
Speaker 1: Kelly's first kiss to shouting Donna Martin graduates, you have

1783
01:34:57,760 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 1: an amazing memory. You remember everything about the entire ten

1784
01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:05,520
Speaker 1: years that we filmed that show, and you remember absolutely

1785
01:35:05,560 --> 01:35:08,320
Speaker 1: nothing of the ten years that we filmed that show.

1786
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:11,200
Speaker 1: Listen to nine O two one OMG on the I

1787
01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:14,600
Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1788
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:19,639
Speaker 1: The art world it is essentially a money laundering business.

1789
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:22,720
Speaker 1: The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You

1790
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:26,080
Speaker 1: know they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes.

1791
01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:30,960
Speaker 1: I'm at like Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed,

1792
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. You knew that the

1793
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 1: painting was fake. Um Listen to Art Fraud starting February

1794
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 1: one on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or

1795
01:35:45,200 --> 01:36:04,000
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Fuck work, work, Hey, hey, hey, hey,

1796
01:36:04,840 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 1: good introduction. I'm Robert Evans. This is it could happen here.

1797
01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:11,880
Speaker 1: That was Chris Garrison's also here, so is Sophie, who

1798
01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:14,680
Speaker 1: is changing her name to Sophie. What is your new name,

1799
01:36:15,200 --> 01:36:18,519
Speaker 1: Sophie dot Com Arena, Sophie dot Com Arena. She's doing

1800
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:20,040
Speaker 1: this to deal with the trauma of the fact that

1801
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:22,320
Speaker 1: Los Angeles just agreed to change the name of the

1802
01:36:22,400 --> 01:36:27,160
Speaker 1: Chase Bank Arena to Crypto dot Com st Center, Oh,

1803
01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:30,800
Speaker 1: Staples Center, Sorry, I'm getting my arena's named after venal

1804
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:39,240
Speaker 1: brands mixed up. Speaking of the pointlessness of work, there

1805
01:36:39,280 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 1: are people laboring right now who worked at Staples so

1806
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:45,639
Speaker 1: that Staples would have enough money to name a place

1807
01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:48,240
Speaker 1: where people go do sports after a place where people

1808
01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:54,120
Speaker 1: get fucking pencils um And now Staples has declined enough

1809
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:58,759
Speaker 1: that it's just crypto dot com. Fucking Crypto dot com

1810
01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:04,280
Speaker 1: book upon look up on the worst cryptocurrency e formerly

1811
01:37:04,400 --> 01:37:09,840
Speaker 1: Mighty Staples in despair, fucking the Osmond Dius of the

1812
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:12,960
Speaker 1: office supply world. I don't know whatever, what are we

1813
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:18,920
Speaker 1: talking about. We're going to no comes in the middle,

1814
01:37:19,040 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 1: but right now we're gonna go to a place where

1815
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:24,680
Speaker 1: they banned crypto mining for the most part, so and

1816
01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:28,160
Speaker 1: that that places China, and I wanted to talk about

1817
01:37:28,800 --> 01:37:31,000
Speaker 1: specifically a lot of us been going on the Chinese Internet,

1818
01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:35,000
Speaker 1: what's been going on in Chinese labor because so Garrison

1819
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:36,880
Speaker 1: Garrison told me we're doing an at work episode, and

1820
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:40,000
Speaker 1: I went, oh, yeah, there's a there's you know, there's

1821
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:41,759
Speaker 1: a version of this in China. And then I realized

1822
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:45,080
Speaker 1: that like a almost no one has heard of lying

1823
01:37:45,080 --> 01:37:48,719
Speaker 1: flat and be it rules and see that nobody really

1824
01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:50,640
Speaker 1: know in the US knows what's going on in the

1825
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:54,479
Speaker 1: Chinese Internet because it's effectively siloed. And I mean, you know,

1826
01:37:54,600 --> 01:37:56,599
Speaker 1: there's there's, there's there's there's lots different ways to silo.

1827
01:37:56,760 --> 01:37:58,840
Speaker 1: I mean there's there's literally the Great Firewall. There's factors

1828
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:00,920
Speaker 1: and different languages, people, different apps, and you know, the

1829
01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 1: Internet has become this sort of like you know, it's

1830
01:38:03,360 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a bubbles don't interact with each other. Yeah,

1831
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,519
Speaker 1: the wald Garden thing, and it's you know, the sort

1832
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:12,280
Speaker 1: of national level world Garden stuff is I think in

1833
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, way more dangerous than the stuff

1834
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:17,320
Speaker 1: you know that like people complaining about it was sucking

1835
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:19,360
Speaker 1: audio logical bubble and like that's bad. But the fact

1836
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:23,680
Speaker 1: that we have bubbles like this where it's like you know,

1837
01:38:24,040 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 1: the like with with like actual they basically borders but

1838
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:32,120
Speaker 1: online Yeah yeah, because they're enforced by governments with force. Yeah. Yeah,

1839
01:38:32,160 --> 01:38:35,240
Speaker 1: the place it was always going to go. Um, once

1840
01:38:35,280 --> 01:38:38,160
Speaker 1: we decided not to be rad with the internet, which

1841
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:42,280
Speaker 1: everyone collectively decided in I'm going to say one thousand

1842
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:47,280
Speaker 1: four Okay, yeah, do you think do you think do

1843
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:49,920
Speaker 1: do you think? Do you think that was eleven fault?

1844
01:38:50,880 --> 01:38:54,400
Speaker 1: Nine eleven played a role. Nine eleven did play a role. Um,

1845
01:38:54,439 --> 01:38:57,439
Speaker 1: the dot com boom played another role. Um, there were

1846
01:38:57,479 --> 01:39:01,479
Speaker 1: there there, There were a number of factors. Um, but

1847
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:05,040
Speaker 1: we can all blame it on let's blame it on

1848
01:39:05,080 --> 01:39:09,160
Speaker 1: low tax and continue. So anti work in China before

1849
01:39:09,200 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 1: we get into lying flat, which is China's version of

1850
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:15,320
Speaker 1: anti work, isn't the right word because this actually started

1851
01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:18,800
Speaker 1: a few months before sort of anti work blew up

1852
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:21,400
Speaker 1: in the US. But before we fully get into that,

1853
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:24,240
Speaker 1: to understand what's going on here, we need to talk

1854
01:39:24,240 --> 01:39:27,800
Speaker 1: about something called involution. And did you say that again?

1855
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:34,720
Speaker 1: Like inval involution? Involution? Yeah, So this this, this is

1856
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:38,080
Speaker 1: this is originally this is a very obscure anthropological term

1857
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:42,080
Speaker 1: developed by my old nemesis Clifford Geertz, who's one of

1858
01:39:42,200 --> 01:39:45,040
Speaker 1: the most famous and most important anthropologists in history, who

1859
01:39:45,080 --> 01:39:47,760
Speaker 1: also sucks ass, and I hate him. I thought your

1860
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:52,520
Speaker 1: nemesis was Noam Chomsky. Yes, also, but for different reasons.

1861
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:57,360
Speaker 1: Should I cancel the hit sub sub nemesis something? I

1862
01:39:57,760 --> 01:40:00,240
Speaker 1: have many I have many nemesses that I have on

1863
01:40:00,280 --> 01:40:05,639
Speaker 1: the side. God here Jody Dean episode at some point. Now,

1864
01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:10,880
Speaker 1: thank you. I appreciate allies in my one person intellectual wars,

1865
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:16,000
Speaker 1: although this does seem to be a pretty boring intellectual war, yeah,

1866
01:40:16,320 --> 01:40:21,840
Speaker 1: said most of them. Yeah yeah, but what what what

1867
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:24,120
Speaker 1: Gears was describing? Basically, so he does his field work

1868
01:40:24,120 --> 01:40:27,519
Speaker 1: in Java, and what are you describing? What what involution means?

1869
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:29,840
Speaker 1: It's the system where people keep working harder and harder

1870
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:32,120
Speaker 1: for there's no increase in output, and so that there's

1871
01:40:32,160 --> 01:40:34,880
Speaker 1: no there's no rewards for working harder. And so you know,

1872
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:37,320
Speaker 1: in Java you'd have these plantations, right, and the plantations

1873
01:40:37,360 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 1: would get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But

1874
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:42,400
Speaker 1: because each new person was only like harvesting just enough

1875
01:40:42,439 --> 01:40:46,080
Speaker 1: to feed themselves, you never actually got any productivity increases.

1876
01:40:46,120 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 1: And so you know, Yeah, there's no there's no output

1877
01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:53,040
Speaker 1: increases and in not really the case in America in

1878
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:56,960
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yeah, and what's interesting, Well, okay,

1879
01:40:57,000 --> 01:40:59,120
Speaker 1: so the reason I want to talk about this also

1880
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 1: is because based like everyone who's been writing about this inmation,

1881
01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:05,599
Speaker 1: NEUWS outlets has missed about half of the story of

1882
01:41:05,600 --> 01:41:08,760
Speaker 1: how how this like incredibly obscure anthropological term that like

1883
01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:11,400
Speaker 1: I don't like Again, I was an anthropology major. I

1884
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:13,320
Speaker 1: don't think I ever ran into involution while like while

1885
01:41:13,320 --> 01:41:16,880
Speaker 1: I was studying anthropology. Yeah, and no one has ever

1886
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:20,960
Speaker 1: heard of this, Like fucking everyone in China has like

1887
01:41:20,960 --> 01:41:25,599
Speaker 1: like a treatise they can spout at you about this now. Um. Yeah,

1888
01:41:25,720 --> 01:41:27,120
Speaker 1: and and you know, I want to talk a bit

1889
01:41:27,120 --> 01:41:30,360
Speaker 1: about how to emerge. And part of this is because,

1890
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, in the last about two years, people will

1891
01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:36,800
Speaker 1: be getting increasingly piste off at you know, just the

1892
01:41:36,880 --> 01:41:40,240
Speaker 1: sort of incredibly competitive nature of Chinese society and particularly work.

1893
01:41:40,439 --> 01:41:43,240
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of this is because everyone's

1894
01:41:43,240 --> 01:41:46,679
Speaker 1: working what's what's called, which is nine am to nine pm,

1895
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:49,080
Speaker 1: six days a week. And she actually, do you make

1896
01:41:49,080 --> 01:41:51,519
Speaker 1: this good? When I say everyone that's like an average schedule.

1897
01:41:51,600 --> 01:41:53,880
Speaker 1: The schedules get a lot worse than that, But the

1898
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:55,600
Speaker 1: nine six is the one that sort of gets the

1899
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:57,960
Speaker 1: attention because a lot of people work in especially in

1900
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:00,439
Speaker 1: the tech industry. This is you know, we do, but

1901
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:02,639
Speaker 1: you know, everyone focused on the tech industry, everyone ignores

1902
01:42:02,720 --> 01:42:05,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of myrket workers who also do this and worse.

1903
01:42:05,960 --> 01:42:08,479
Speaker 1: And you know, there's just a normal societal pressure to

1904
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:10,879
Speaker 1: sort of keep moving and keep competing and keep working.

1905
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:14,240
Speaker 1: And simultaneously, you know, people in China today are working

1906
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:18,320
Speaker 1: like basically as hard as anyone's worked in China since

1907
01:42:18,400 --> 01:42:20,960
Speaker 1: like people would literally collapse and missastion in the fields

1908
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:24,280
Speaker 1: and the great leap forward Like that's lots of people

1909
01:42:24,280 --> 01:42:28,160
Speaker 1: are working this hard. And but but instead of you know,

1910
01:42:28,240 --> 01:42:30,919
Speaker 1: getting rewards for this, Chinese growth rates have been collapsing

1911
01:42:31,080 --> 01:42:34,640
Speaker 1: for a decade. And yeah, this is you know, this

1912
01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:35,800
Speaker 1: is this is the thing that you get. In the

1913
01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: U s too, was like, well, okay, people were like, well,

1914
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:39,240
Speaker 1: if you work out to get into the middle class,

1915
01:42:39,280 --> 01:42:42,719
Speaker 1: but then you know, everyone's working nine six. No one's

1916
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:46,000
Speaker 1: getting into the widdle class. The like, China has incredibly

1917
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:50,400
Speaker 1: low rates of social ability, and you know it into

1918
01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:53,960
Speaker 1: this comes involution But the weird part of what what's

1919
01:42:54,000 --> 01:42:59,960
Speaker 1: happening here is that involution doesn't enter the Chinese disc

1920
01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 1: course through like people complaining about work. It's it's actually

1921
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:06,439
Speaker 1: a product of a bunch of middle class people complaining

1922
01:43:06,479 --> 01:43:09,240
Speaker 1: about Chinese industrial policy. And this is the hardest story

1923
01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:11,120
Speaker 1: that nobody really talks about, even though I think it's

1924
01:43:11,160 --> 01:43:14,880
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because again like this, you know, anti

1925
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:16,800
Speaker 1: anti work in the U s RS and the left

1926
01:43:17,000 --> 01:43:20,120
Speaker 1: right involution, which is the thing that's going to bring

1927
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:22,760
Speaker 1: about sort of the Chinese version of anti work is

1928
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:26,080
Speaker 1: the right way is originally right wing discourse, um and

1929
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:27,880
Speaker 1: and And it's interesting, it's it's it's a right wing,

1930
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:31,040
Speaker 1: very nationalist discourse that gets you know, the right wing

1931
01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:33,519
Speaker 1: part of it gets essentially expunged and it gets pulled left.

1932
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 1: So originally, you know, China is I don't have a

1933
01:43:39,439 --> 01:43:42,400
Speaker 1: more elegant way of saying this than China's leaders, and

1934
01:43:42,479 --> 01:43:45,960
Speaker 1: more online than ours, like significantly more like they Actually

1935
01:43:46,320 --> 01:43:52,280
Speaker 1: that's hard, that's hard to abash it. It's people people

1936
01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:56,360
Speaker 1: like like local government offices right have like they they

1937
01:43:56,400 --> 01:43:59,080
Speaker 1: have these like internal sites that like show them what

1938
01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:01,280
Speaker 1: people are posting this. This goes from the from the

1939
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:03,360
Speaker 1: bottom levels, it goes away to the top. Like people

1940
01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:06,800
Speaker 1: actually listen to bloggers like like that they're there, you know,

1941
01:44:06,960 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 1: some of them, some of the people we're about to

1942
01:44:09,080 --> 01:44:11,479
Speaker 1: talk about it are incredibly influential. And there's a bunch

1943
01:44:11,479 --> 01:44:13,200
Speaker 1: of arguments in the early two thousands about how China

1944
01:44:13,240 --> 01:44:18,400
Speaker 1: is going to industrialize and these are basically online arguments. UM,

1945
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:22,479
Speaker 1: and the guys who win that argument r she shimping

1946
01:44:22,600 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 1: basically takes their industrial policy and implements it which is

1947
01:44:26,040 --> 01:44:27,599
Speaker 1: you know, which is which is scales? Like how online

1948
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:29,360
Speaker 1: these people are that? Like, yeah, people are taking econot

1949
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:31,680
Speaker 1: policy from like literally, I mean, you know, it's it's

1950
01:44:31,680 --> 01:44:33,719
Speaker 1: not solely up. I don't take a policy people arguing

1951
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:36,120
Speaker 1: on the internet, right, this is this is an incredibly

1952
01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:39,439
Speaker 1: online society and it you know, but the worst part

1953
01:44:39,479 --> 01:44:42,280
Speaker 1: is that for a while it works. You know that

1954
01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:44,400
Speaker 1: the echonart policy basically is they're gonna increases size of

1955
01:44:44,400 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 1: the Chinese economy by investing in sort of high tech

1956
01:44:46,400 --> 01:44:48,200
Speaker 1: industry and moving up the value chain. This is this

1957
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:50,120
Speaker 1: has been very standards or Chinese second on policy for

1958
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:52,960
Speaker 1: a while. Um. The problem is in the last about

1959
01:44:53,040 --> 01:44:56,760
Speaker 1: decade it's it's it's stopped working. And you know, the

1960
01:44:56,800 --> 01:44:59,559
Speaker 1: CCPs response was to do more financialization, and this piste

1961
01:44:59,600 --> 01:45:02,000
Speaker 1: off the like the the online they were they were

1962
01:45:02,000 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 1: called like the Industrial Party. This this this is off those guys,

1963
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:06,880
Speaker 1: because you know, the whole thing was don't financialize, just

1964
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:10,040
Speaker 1: keep investing in like building airplanes and stuff, and the

1965
01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:14,400
Speaker 1: Chinese economies will work itself out. And but eventually even

1966
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:17,240
Speaker 1: they can't keep making this argument because you know, I

1967
01:45:17,240 --> 01:45:19,759
Speaker 1: mean like like he doesn't tend right, Like the Chinese

1968
01:45:19,760 --> 01:45:22,800
Speaker 1: GDP growth rate was ten percent and now it's like

1969
01:45:23,040 --> 01:45:25,479
Speaker 1: maybe five and last year, I mean last year twenties,

1970
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:27,040
Speaker 1: so you know it was really low. But I mean,

1971
01:45:27,080 --> 01:45:31,680
Speaker 1: the Chinese growth rate has been imploding. And so what

1972
01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:33,240
Speaker 1: you get out of this is is this group of

1973
01:45:33,240 --> 01:45:37,880
Speaker 1: people called the Paoists based on this guy named Cow. Okay. So,

1974
01:45:37,880 --> 01:45:40,560
Speaker 1: so Cow is the guy who who who essentially introduces

1975
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:45,840
Speaker 1: the concept of involution and he's arguing that this is

1976
01:45:45,880 --> 01:45:50,240
Speaker 1: happening because I'm gonna quote him here, people can't get

1977
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:53,120
Speaker 1: quote a peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in

1978
01:45:53,120 --> 01:45:56,320
Speaker 1: a big house because of the US. And so there's

1979
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:58,760
Speaker 1: the solution to this, basically is is to deal with

1980
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:00,760
Speaker 1: like to destroy America as a jem on. And then

1981
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:03,880
Speaker 1: once you do that, you know you can get all

1982
01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:05,759
Speaker 1: of these things. And as you can tell, like you know, okay,

1983
01:46:06,200 --> 01:46:08,240
Speaker 1: peaceful life, get a pretty girl, live in a big house.

1984
01:46:08,280 --> 01:46:11,760
Speaker 1: This this is like a very conservative framing of this. Yeah, yeah,

1985
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:13,439
Speaker 1: I mean this is this is the Chinese equivalent of

1986
01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:15,240
Speaker 1: two point five kids in a white picket fence. And

1987
01:46:15,280 --> 01:46:17,400
Speaker 1: it has all of this sort of associated gender politics

1988
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:20,400
Speaker 1: and class politics to go along with that. And you know,

1989
01:46:20,520 --> 01:46:22,879
Speaker 1: and when when cow and the cows are talking about involution,

1990
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:25,400
Speaker 1: what they're talking about is they literally they literally mean

1991
01:46:25,479 --> 01:46:28,160
Speaker 1: Chinese dignated economy, right, so that they're talking about, okay,

1992
01:46:28,200 --> 01:46:30,200
Speaker 1: that you have more inputs, you have labor, technology inputs,

1993
01:46:30,200 --> 01:46:32,000
Speaker 1: but the output for input is declining, and the only

1994
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:35,080
Speaker 1: way to restore economic growth the chief prosperity is by

1995
01:46:35,080 --> 01:46:39,519
Speaker 1: solving a decline output by defeating the Americans. But you know,

1996
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:41,400
Speaker 1: and and this this is kind of a big deal.

1997
01:46:41,560 --> 01:46:44,000
Speaker 1: And for a while, in sort of like twenty this

1998
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:48,040
Speaker 1: this is, this is going places, but very quickly people

1999
01:46:48,080 --> 01:46:51,320
Speaker 1: are like, my life fucking sucks, Like I don't care

2000
01:46:51,400 --> 01:46:54,360
Speaker 1: about this econ ship or this, like grand national struggle

2001
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:57,000
Speaker 1: against the world hedgemon, Like I care about the fact that,

2002
01:46:57,040 --> 01:46:59,960
Speaker 1: like my life is this incredibly pointless, ever escalating rat

2003
01:47:00,160 --> 01:47:03,120
Speaker 1: race with like literally no rewards. Yeah, that would that

2004
01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:05,519
Speaker 1: would concern me too, if that were a thing that

2005
01:47:05,600 --> 01:47:09,800
Speaker 1: we were capable of feeling in our country. Yeah, it's there.

2006
01:47:09,880 --> 01:47:11,920
Speaker 1: There's been some really funny stuff with involution where like

2007
01:47:12,560 --> 01:47:16,360
Speaker 1: you read accounts of it and you'll get like anthropologists

2008
01:47:16,400 --> 01:47:17,840
Speaker 1: going like, oh, yeah, this is this is the thing

2009
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:19,559
Speaker 1: that this is the thing that's unique to China, and

2010
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:23,439
Speaker 1: it's like have have you worked a job in in

2011
01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:29,519
Speaker 1: the US? Like, but you know involution, you know what

2012
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:31,439
Speaker 1: happens to it over over the course of sort of

2013
01:47:32,439 --> 01:47:34,800
Speaker 1: it goes from being the general you know, it goes

2014
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:37,120
Speaker 1: it goes from being this thing that's about like very

2015
01:47:37,200 --> 01:47:41,920
Speaker 1: specific like technical industrial arguments about industrial policy too. Is

2016
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:45,040
Speaker 1: when one anthropologists put it, quote the experience of being

2017
01:47:45,120 --> 01:47:49,840
Speaker 1: locked in competition that one ultimately knows as meaningless. And

2018
01:47:49,880 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 1: so people are, yeah, we could we couldn't imagine that

2019
01:47:53,640 --> 01:47:57,479
Speaker 1: this is yeah, and it's you know, and people people

2020
01:47:57,479 --> 01:48:00,960
Speaker 1: start talking about finding individual solutions to of this, and

2021
01:48:01,000 --> 01:48:02,800
Speaker 1: so you know, then this is things like working last

2022
01:48:02,840 --> 01:48:07,600
Speaker 1: moving to lower tier city is getting less protgious jobs. Um,

2023
01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:09,240
Speaker 1: but you know, and I want to think about this

2024
01:48:09,280 --> 01:48:12,880
Speaker 1: again because this this is a really interesting thing where

2025
01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:18,559
Speaker 1: you have a very incredibly right wing, nationalistic and sort

2026
01:48:18,600 --> 01:48:22,040
Speaker 1: of like like middle class like nostalgia kind of like

2027
01:48:22,760 --> 01:48:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, like Milt aggressive foreign policy thing and then

2028
01:48:28,439 --> 01:48:32,240
Speaker 1: it just flips. And and part of how it flips

2029
01:48:32,360 --> 01:48:34,960
Speaker 1: and this is a part of the story that is

2030
01:48:35,320 --> 01:48:38,360
Speaker 1: almost completely ignored, But I think it's really important. Do

2031
01:48:38,479 --> 01:48:40,600
Speaker 1: you guys know about this? The YouTuber named leads It.

2032
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:44,480
Speaker 1: She she's the biggest Chinese YouTuber. She has sixteen million followers,

2033
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:47,599
Speaker 1: and most of her followers are not on YouTube because

2034
01:48:47,600 --> 01:48:50,479
Speaker 1: you know, YouTube like blocked by the firewall. But she

2035
01:48:50,560 --> 01:48:55,040
Speaker 1: has she has fifty five million followers on the sort

2036
01:48:55,040 --> 01:48:58,240
Speaker 1: of Chinese version of TikTok, and yeah, she has across

2037
01:48:58,240 --> 01:49:00,559
Speaker 1: the world. She has a hundred million followers, right. She

2038
01:49:00,560 --> 01:49:02,639
Speaker 1: she's she's one of the biggest media stars in the world.

2039
01:49:02,840 --> 01:49:06,040
Speaker 1: And her origins are kind of unclear. The like official

2040
01:49:06,040 --> 01:49:08,960
Speaker 1: biography basically says that like when she was twelve, instead

2041
01:49:08,960 --> 01:49:10,960
Speaker 1: of going to high school, she's being a waitress and

2042
01:49:11,000 --> 01:49:12,559
Speaker 1: then she had to like you know, but she she

2043
01:49:12,560 --> 01:49:13,720
Speaker 1: she'd gone to the city and then she had to

2044
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,200
Speaker 1: return to Revels to take care of her grandma. And

2045
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:19,719
Speaker 1: she makes these videos that are these like very soft

2046
01:49:19,800 --> 01:49:22,400
Speaker 1: and calming videos or like calming music of her going

2047
01:49:22,439 --> 01:49:25,320
Speaker 1: into the woods and like harvesting materials and making fires

2048
01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:29,479
Speaker 1: out of logs and like cooking things. Okay, and it's

2049
01:49:29,479 --> 01:49:30,960
Speaker 1: it's it's just like it's you know, it's it's very

2050
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:34,200
Speaker 1: much this this really utopianism. There's there's basically no industrial

2051
01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:39,760
Speaker 1: technology like Cottage Corp returned to Nature. Yeah. Yeah, I

2052
01:49:40,080 --> 01:49:41,599
Speaker 1: know a lot of people who watched it like that

2053
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:43,639
Speaker 1: just to like soothe them after a day of work.

2054
01:49:43,720 --> 01:49:46,479
Speaker 1: Like see somebody like dig a cave and turn it

2055
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:49,200
Speaker 1: into like a bath or something using just hand tools

2056
01:49:49,280 --> 01:49:51,720
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, And there's it's interesting that this kind

2057
01:49:51,760 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 1: of it's almost like turned into a sub genre. But

2058
01:49:54,760 --> 01:50:00,080
Speaker 1: she's by far the biggest like version of this. And

2059
01:50:00,160 --> 01:50:01,479
Speaker 1: you know, so she she gets picked up by a

2060
01:50:01,520 --> 01:50:06,760
Speaker 1: media company and from goes viral. And you know it's

2061
01:50:06,800 --> 01:50:09,640
Speaker 1: interesting because so she's doing this because so she she

2062
01:50:09,680 --> 01:50:11,559
Speaker 1: has to go back to take care of her grandma,

2063
01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:13,960
Speaker 1: and so she like opens a store and she's trying

2064
01:50:13,960 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 1: to support herself but and like her grandma by opening

2065
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:17,559
Speaker 1: this store, and so the videos were like a way

2066
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:20,240
Speaker 1: to promote the store. And then you know, now she

2067
01:50:20,280 --> 01:50:22,519
Speaker 1: has a hundred million followers and she she gets adopted

2068
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:26,160
Speaker 1: as this kind of like like national culture ambassador, I

2069
01:50:26,160 --> 01:50:29,080
Speaker 1: guess by the state. Sure, And and it's just you know,

2070
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,760
Speaker 1: so there's nothing overtly political about these videos at all, right,

2071
01:50:31,880 --> 01:50:34,320
Speaker 1: which is especially offering and like trying to sell is

2072
01:50:34,360 --> 01:50:36,639
Speaker 1: this you know, this like fantasy of retreat from industrial

2073
01:50:36,680 --> 01:50:39,599
Speaker 1: majority into world life. And I think it's really easy

2074
01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:41,439
Speaker 1: to look at that esthetic and go like this is

2075
01:50:41,479 --> 01:50:44,120
Speaker 1: basically fascist, Like this is rejecting majority embraced here issues.

2076
01:50:44,200 --> 01:50:47,280
Speaker 1: Some people online when they see that immediately sees after

2077
01:50:47,280 --> 01:50:51,679
Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, it's eco fascist, Yes that yeah,

2078
01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:53,680
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, and I think like that

2079
01:50:53,720 --> 01:50:56,080
Speaker 1: interpretation I think is actually a lot of y I

2080
01:50:56,080 --> 01:50:58,040
Speaker 1: got picked up by the Chinese, by Chinese media companies

2081
01:50:58,040 --> 01:50:59,920
Speaker 1: and then like sort of by the Chinese state because

2082
01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, like having an actual positive utopian image of

2083
01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:05,920
Speaker 1: rural life is politically useul with them, and something that's

2084
01:51:05,960 --> 01:51:10,240
Speaker 1: like not hasn't been true since like we've had this

2085
01:51:10,280 --> 01:51:13,240
Speaker 1: for a long time. Yeah, well no, and I think

2086
01:51:13,240 --> 01:51:14,439
Speaker 1: I would say this this. I think this is the

2087
01:51:14,439 --> 01:51:16,360
Speaker 1: thing that's different in China is that there hasn't been

2088
01:51:16,360 --> 01:51:20,479
Speaker 1: like a positive conception of rural life really since I

2089
01:51:21,280 --> 01:51:23,720
Speaker 1: guess the greatly forwards and then are like there there

2090
01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:25,160
Speaker 1: were some people in the Cultural Revolution, but then they

2091
01:51:25,160 --> 01:51:27,000
Speaker 1: actually went there and we're like, oh god, this sucks,

2092
01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:29,760
Speaker 1: and so you know, so they need a new one.

2093
01:51:29,800 --> 01:51:32,680
Speaker 1: They come up with this. But you know, the thing

2094
01:51:32,720 --> 01:51:36,960
Speaker 1: that's different about China than the US is that China's

2095
01:51:37,000 --> 01:51:40,240
Speaker 1: maket worker population like is almost the entire size of

2096
01:51:40,240 --> 01:51:41,920
Speaker 1: the population of the US. I mean it's it's like

2097
01:51:41,960 --> 01:51:44,679
Speaker 1: two seventy million people, right, I mean it's it's enormous

2098
01:51:44,720 --> 01:51:46,800
Speaker 1: and a huge number of these people, you know, I'm

2099
01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:48,760
Speaker 1: some of these people are going from like city to city.

2100
01:51:48,760 --> 01:51:49,840
Speaker 1: You're like town of town, but a lot of these

2101
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:52,639
Speaker 1: people are coming from from rural villages into cities. And

2102
01:51:53,439 --> 01:51:54,680
Speaker 1: you know, I mean these are this is this is

2103
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:56,400
Speaker 1: the background of the Chinese workforce. And like these people

2104
01:51:56,640 --> 01:52:00,400
Speaker 1: like they see their family once a year because you know,

2105
01:52:00,439 --> 01:52:02,439
Speaker 1: like they can't afford to go home, so they go

2106
01:52:02,479 --> 01:52:04,240
Speaker 1: home once a year for New Year's because they get

2107
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:05,960
Speaker 1: some time, often they come back and and this is

2108
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:11,240
Speaker 1: where you know, like these videos are obvious fantasy, but

2109
01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:13,360
Speaker 1: you know, they suggest an alternative to work in the

2110
01:52:13,400 --> 01:52:15,479
Speaker 1: capitalist city that's sort of plausible, you know, especially if

2111
01:52:15,479 --> 01:52:18,200
Speaker 1: you come from rural village. And this is where this

2112
01:52:18,240 --> 01:52:22,880
Speaker 1: whole thing completely backfires on the Chinese ruling class. And

2113
01:52:23,200 --> 01:52:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, because this this, this this cowisted involution discourse

2114
01:52:26,120 --> 01:52:30,320
Speaker 1: is about diffuse with this style of rural rural utopianism

2115
01:52:30,320 --> 01:52:32,120
Speaker 1: into a movement that is going to shake the foundation

2116
01:52:32,160 --> 01:52:37,360
Speaker 1: of work itself. But first, but first, ads again also

2117
01:52:37,720 --> 01:52:42,000
Speaker 1: not connecting to anything. We're talking Conever, why Garrison, don't

2118
01:52:42,040 --> 01:52:44,559
Speaker 1: even bring that up. There's no needs, there's no reason

2119
01:52:44,600 --> 01:52:48,200
Speaker 1: for people to think about about the fact that about that.

2120
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:52,639
Speaker 1: Don't think anyway, here's about ads. Yeah, think about the

2121
01:52:52,680 --> 01:52:57,280
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway Patrol primary sponsors off it could happen here.

2122
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:02,559
Speaker 1: If it happens to you, you'll want the Washington State

2123
01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:08,400
Speaker 1: Highway Patrol the border. It's so funny. Anyway, we're trying

2124
01:53:08,439 --> 01:53:11,719
Speaker 1: to but I think it's we're working on it. People.

2125
01:53:11,880 --> 01:53:16,360
Speaker 1: I think it's hilarious. Yeah, please don't please don't join

2126
01:53:16,400 --> 01:53:21,200
Speaker 1: the Washington State Highway Patrol. Ah, we're back, and I

2127
01:53:21,200 --> 01:53:23,880
Speaker 1: don't know about y'all, but I thought I knew what

2128
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:26,680
Speaker 1: I was talking about, and I after those ads, I

2129
01:53:26,680 --> 01:53:30,280
Speaker 1: am fully Washington State Highway Patrol build. I'm on board.

2130
01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:34,200
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Yeah. In April, a guy in Chinese

2131
01:53:34,240 --> 01:53:40,760
Speaker 1: social media makes a post and I'm just gonna so, Yeah,

2132
01:53:40,760 --> 01:53:42,280
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna read this post because it's kind of

2133
01:53:42,280 --> 01:53:45,599
Speaker 1: short and it rules. I haven't been working for two years.

2134
01:53:45,840 --> 01:53:47,679
Speaker 1: I have just been hanging around, and I don't see

2135
01:53:47,680 --> 01:53:50,599
Speaker 1: anything wrong with This pressure mainly comes from the generation

2136
01:53:50,640 --> 01:53:52,759
Speaker 1: with your peers and the values of the older generation.

2137
01:53:53,160 --> 01:53:56,000
Speaker 1: These pressures keep popping up, but we don't have to

2138
01:53:56,040 --> 01:53:58,640
Speaker 1: abide by these norms. I can live like Diogenes and

2139
01:53:58,640 --> 01:54:01,760
Speaker 1: sleep in a wooden bucket week so I can live

2140
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:05,000
Speaker 1: like Heracletus in a cave thinking about logos. Since this

2141
01:54:05,120 --> 01:54:08,040
Speaker 1: land has never had a school thought that upholds human subjectivity,

2142
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:10,439
Speaker 1: I can develop one of my own. Lying down is

2143
01:54:10,479 --> 01:54:13,679
Speaker 1: my philosophical movements. Only through lying flat can humans become

2144
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:18,080
Speaker 1: the measure of all things based. Oh my god, that's

2145
01:54:18,120 --> 01:54:21,479
Speaker 1: the best. I love that. Can I talk about Diogenes now?

2146
01:54:23,439 --> 01:54:27,799
Speaker 1: So my my man, Diogenes is he's from this trend

2147
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:31,080
Speaker 1: in Greek philosophical thought during kind of the high period

2148
01:54:31,120 --> 01:54:35,400
Speaker 1: of Greek civilization, where a bunch of things come out

2149
01:54:35,400 --> 01:54:38,240
Speaker 1: of it. You kind of get anarchism, Western anarchism out

2150
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:41,240
Speaker 1: of it, You kind of get you get elements of

2151
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:43,640
Speaker 1: like Puritan culture from it, because there are a lot

2152
01:54:43,680 --> 01:54:46,160
Speaker 1: of them are very much anti like the pleasures of

2153
01:54:46,200 --> 01:54:48,720
Speaker 1: sex and like anything pleasing, and like you don't you

2154
01:54:48,720 --> 01:54:50,680
Speaker 1: don't do anything that feels good because then you become

2155
01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 1: dependent on it. Like there's a whole bunch of ship

2156
01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:55,240
Speaker 1: going on um. And Diogenes was like one of the

2157
01:54:55,400 --> 01:54:57,680
Speaker 1: one of the first motherfucker's who were kind of playing

2158
01:54:57,720 --> 01:55:01,640
Speaker 1: around in this in this philosoph tropical space. And when

2159
01:55:01,640 --> 01:55:05,280
Speaker 1: he gets into so his early life is his dad

2160
01:55:05,760 --> 01:55:09,640
Speaker 1: is uh kind of a grifter. It sounds like we

2161
01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:12,200
Speaker 1: know that he got in trouble. He and his dad

2162
01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:16,520
Speaker 1: got exiled for debasing currency, which could be as simple

2163
01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:19,600
Speaker 1: as they were watering down for lack of a better term,

2164
01:55:19,640 --> 01:55:22,120
Speaker 1: like the gold or silver and currency with less precious

2165
01:55:22,120 --> 01:55:24,520
Speaker 1: metals and hiding it in order to make a profit,

2166
01:55:24,640 --> 01:55:26,920
Speaker 1: right and like keep the extra gold that could be

2167
01:55:26,960 --> 01:55:28,960
Speaker 1: what they were doing it also could have been like

2168
01:55:29,280 --> 01:55:31,400
Speaker 1: it could have been political, because some people who were

2169
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:34,000
Speaker 1: doing this in Sinope, I think is the city which

2170
01:55:34,040 --> 01:55:36,640
Speaker 1: is now in Turkey, we're doing it for political reasons.

2171
01:55:36,640 --> 01:55:39,920
Speaker 1: We don't really know why. But there's actual documented archaeological

2172
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:41,960
Speaker 1: evidence of this, including right around the time he would

2173
01:55:41,960 --> 01:55:44,640
Speaker 1: have been a child, we found from that period a

2174
01:55:44,800 --> 01:55:49,200
Speaker 1: cash of debased gold and silver coins that had been destroyed,

2175
01:55:49,240 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 1: so someone had like realized they've been debased and destroyed

2176
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:53,960
Speaker 1: them so they couldn't be used. So there's evidence. Anyway,

2177
01:55:54,120 --> 01:55:56,040
Speaker 1: he and his dad get exiled, which means from an

2178
01:55:56,040 --> 01:55:58,840
Speaker 1: early stage he goes from being somewhat of means, if

2179
01:55:58,880 --> 01:56:02,200
Speaker 1: your dad's making the currency, you're not probably not like

2180
01:56:02,240 --> 01:56:06,200
Speaker 1: a poor family um. And then they get kicked out

2181
01:56:06,240 --> 01:56:08,200
Speaker 1: of their city state and they're like kind of stateless,

2182
01:56:08,600 --> 01:56:13,440
Speaker 1: and so Diogenes evolves over time and like gets into philosophy.

2183
01:56:13,640 --> 01:56:15,680
Speaker 1: He tries to there's this I always forget the name

2184
01:56:15,720 --> 01:56:17,440
Speaker 1: of the guy that he he loved it first, but

2185
01:56:17,480 --> 01:56:20,960
Speaker 1: there's this philosopher who's like, you know, this cynical like

2186
01:56:21,040 --> 01:56:22,760
Speaker 1: that's the school of thought he comes from. He's like

2187
01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:25,600
Speaker 1: a cynic um that Diogenes really wants to study from,

2188
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:28,760
Speaker 1: and the guy like assaults him as as Diogenes is like, hey, man,

2189
01:56:28,800 --> 01:56:30,640
Speaker 1: I want to learn from you. Like he like hits

2190
01:56:30,720 --> 01:56:33,680
Speaker 1: him or something. This keeps happening, and eventually he's like

2191
01:56:34,280 --> 01:56:36,080
Speaker 1: this guy is like why do you keep doing this?

2192
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:39,920
Speaker 1: And Diogenes is like, you have something I can learn from? Uh,

2193
01:56:39,920 --> 01:56:41,480
Speaker 1: And so I don't really care what you do to me.

2194
01:56:41,520 --> 01:56:43,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna keep persisting. And so he becomes

2195
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:45,920
Speaker 1: this guy's student, YadA YadA. And the guy who he

2196
01:56:45,960 --> 01:56:48,240
Speaker 1: becomes the student of is like kind of a poser

2197
01:56:48,240 --> 01:56:50,480
Speaker 1: because he's talking about like we need to give up

2198
01:56:50,520 --> 01:56:52,800
Speaker 1: you know, these kind of like pleasures of of like

2199
01:56:52,920 --> 01:56:56,200
Speaker 1: civilized life and and return to a more simple time

2200
01:56:56,240 --> 01:56:58,360
Speaker 1: and like not enjoy all of these, you know, the

2201
01:56:58,400 --> 01:57:00,520
Speaker 1: benefits of wealth. But he like he's also a rich

2202
01:57:00,560 --> 01:57:03,240
Speaker 1: guy and he doesn't give up his money, and Diogenes

2203
01:57:03,440 --> 01:57:06,840
Speaker 1: is like poor as hell um and stays that way um.

2204
01:57:06,960 --> 01:57:08,960
Speaker 1: And so he becomes famous for he goes to Athens

2205
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:11,120
Speaker 1: and he becomes famous for a bunch of like troll

2206
01:57:11,160 --> 01:57:13,800
Speaker 1: ship we don't actually have. He wrote like ten books,

2207
01:57:14,040 --> 01:57:16,160
Speaker 1: we don't have any of them, so we don't actually

2208
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:19,400
Speaker 1: like know what he actually wrote in his philosophy. We

2209
01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:22,560
Speaker 1: just have stories from other philosophers and it's all Diogenes

2210
01:57:22,600 --> 01:57:26,320
Speaker 1: being a fucking troll. So like um on one occasion,

2211
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:29,600
Speaker 1: he one of his big things was he believed that

2212
01:57:29,640 --> 01:57:33,360
Speaker 1: people that if if something was an acceptable behavior, it

2213
01:57:33,440 --> 01:57:36,440
Speaker 1: was an acceptable behavior everywhere, right, And so the start

2214
01:57:36,440 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 1: of this was in in Athens, you were supposed to

2215
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:40,800
Speaker 1: go buy your food in the market, but you weren't

2216
01:57:40,800 --> 01:57:43,320
Speaker 1: supposed to eat it there. That was like considered rude,

2217
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:47,160
Speaker 1: like like like like kind of obscene almost, and Diogenes

2218
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:49,840
Speaker 1: would like get food and then usually by begging, because

2219
01:57:49,840 --> 01:57:51,400
Speaker 1: he was that was the way he got everything. He

2220
01:57:51,440 --> 01:57:53,280
Speaker 1: had no money. He would like get food and he

2221
01:57:53,280 --> 01:57:54,720
Speaker 1: would eat it right in the middle of the market,

2222
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:57,520
Speaker 1: and everybody was like, that's disgusting, and Diogenes would be like, well,

2223
01:57:57,680 --> 01:57:59,320
Speaker 1: if it's okay for me to eat, it must be

2224
01:57:59,400 --> 01:58:02,960
Speaker 1: okay for me to eat here. That's great. Diogenes took

2225
01:58:02,960 --> 01:58:04,720
Speaker 1: it a little bit further than that, because yeah, I

2226
01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:06,560
Speaker 1: can yeah, I can see a few ways you can

2227
01:58:06,640 --> 01:58:09,280
Speaker 1: take this. He extended that too, if it's fine for

2228
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:13,440
Speaker 1: me to urinator ship, it's fine for me to do

2229
01:58:12,440 --> 01:58:17,000
Speaker 1: and he defended himself masturbating and well we can get

2230
01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:20,040
Speaker 1: people in public as if this is okay for me

2231
01:58:20,120 --> 01:58:23,879
Speaker 1: to do in my bedroom, why can't I do this here? Right? Um,

2232
01:58:24,640 --> 01:58:28,160
Speaker 1: it's very like he's he's he's a troll um Diogenes,

2233
01:58:28,160 --> 01:58:31,040
Speaker 1: and he's also like again, the stories we have him

2234
01:58:31,320 --> 01:58:34,240
Speaker 1: is he is like uber an aesthetic, so like at

2235
01:58:34,280 --> 01:58:36,480
Speaker 1: one point, for a long time, the only thing he

2236
01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:39,400
Speaker 1: owns is a wooden bowl that's his cup and and

2237
01:58:39,600 --> 01:58:43,200
Speaker 1: for his food. And then according to you know legend,

2238
01:58:43,280 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 1: he sees this poor peasant child drinking from like cupped

2239
01:58:46,480 --> 01:58:48,440
Speaker 1: hands and he throws away his bowl and he's really

2240
01:58:48,480 --> 01:58:50,640
Speaker 1: angry and he's like, god, damn it, I spent all

2241
01:58:50,640 --> 01:58:53,920
Speaker 1: this effort carrying around something useless, like I said, ship

2242
01:58:53,920 --> 01:58:58,560
Speaker 1: in my hands. He's he's a very entertaining character and

2243
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:04,800
Speaker 1: a very like yeah, he's absolutely an eugle um and

2244
01:59:05,040 --> 01:59:07,960
Speaker 1: he's yeah, he's just kind of like an endearing piece

2245
01:59:07,960 --> 01:59:11,000
Speaker 1: of shit, is like his the idea you get, but

2246
01:59:11,080 --> 01:59:15,560
Speaker 1: also like smarter than I mean, because because fundamentally what

2247
01:59:15,600 --> 01:59:18,240
Speaker 1: Diogenes is doing is he's he's saying, like, hey, all

2248
01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:20,400
Speaker 1: this stuff that we think is important and good about

2249
01:59:20,400 --> 01:59:24,040
Speaker 1: our culture and and like valuable. What if it wasn't,

2250
01:59:24,080 --> 01:59:26,360
Speaker 1: what if none of it matters. He's like he's provoking

2251
01:59:26,360 --> 01:59:28,840
Speaker 1: the thick and he's he's big into like one of

2252
01:59:28,920 --> 01:59:31,240
Speaker 1: his his Like the things he comes back to a

2253
01:59:31,240 --> 01:59:34,280
Speaker 1: lot is that like dogs are clearly happier than us

2254
01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:36,240
Speaker 1: and like better creatures than us, so we should just

2255
01:59:36,280 --> 01:59:39,560
Speaker 1: seek to be like dogs. Um. And one of the

2256
01:59:39,560 --> 01:59:41,480
Speaker 1: ways he might have died is getting bitten by a

2257
01:59:41,520 --> 01:59:43,680
Speaker 1: dog and his bike kidding infected. We don't really know

2258
01:59:43,720 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 1: how he died. Um. You ever thing about Theogenese, This

2259
01:59:46,560 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 1: guy fucking hates rich people. Oh he's he's and he's

2260
01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:56,880
Speaker 1: very funny about it. So Alexander the Great apocryphal lee

2261
01:59:56,880 --> 01:59:59,280
Speaker 1: Maybe that's probably never happened. But the story is that

2262
01:59:59,280 --> 02:00:02,960
Speaker 1: Alexander the Great comes to Athens, you know, while he's

2263
02:00:03,000 --> 02:00:06,600
Speaker 1: on his his blitz through conquering the known world, and

2264
02:00:06,800 --> 02:00:09,920
Speaker 1: finds Diogenes. Alexander the Great was like raised by Aristotle, right,

2265
02:00:09,960 --> 02:00:13,520
Speaker 1: so he knows his philosophy. Guys, like he's he's he's

2266
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:16,280
Speaker 1: seeking Diogenes out because he's a fan of this dude,

2267
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:18,600
Speaker 1: probably through stories that were told to him. In the

2268
02:00:18,640 --> 02:00:21,000
Speaker 1: same way that like I'm telling them to you now.

2269
02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:23,040
Speaker 1: So he like comes up to Diogenes and he's like,

2270
02:00:23,040 --> 02:00:25,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm Alexander the Great. I'm a big fan.

2271
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:28,120
Speaker 1: If I couldn't be Alexander the Great, I would want

2272
02:00:28,120 --> 02:00:31,320
Speaker 1: to be Diogenes um. And Diogenes response, well, if I

2273
02:00:31,320 --> 02:00:34,480
Speaker 1: couldn't be Diogenes, I would just want to be Diogenes,

2274
02:00:34,640 --> 02:00:38,440
Speaker 1: which is a fucking flex again but probably never happened.

2275
02:00:38,480 --> 02:00:41,080
Speaker 1: But like, I want to, I want to read this

2276
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:46,440
Speaker 1: meme that Garrison sent me because it happens. It's absolutely

2277
02:00:46,440 --> 02:00:48,640
Speaker 1: the perfect Ryptian of what what this whole thing is

2278
02:00:48,680 --> 02:00:51,680
Speaker 1: sort of about. So okay, this is me. The philosopher

2279
02:00:51,720 --> 02:00:54,480
Speaker 1: Diogenes was eating bread and lentils for supper. He was

2280
02:00:54,520 --> 02:00:57,680
Speaker 1: seen by the philosopher or a process gust name Aristippus,

2281
02:00:58,320 --> 02:01:02,040
Speaker 1: who he doesn't matter, some dead Greek guy who's about

2282
02:01:02,040 --> 02:01:06,600
Speaker 1: to get absolutely destroyed. He's living comfortably like flattering the king.

2283
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:10,400
Speaker 1: Aristipis says, if you would learn to be subservient to

2284
02:01:10,440 --> 02:01:12,240
Speaker 1: the king, you would not have to live on lentils.

2285
02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:15,440
Speaker 1: Diogenes should flied, learn to live on lentils, and you

2286
02:01:15,440 --> 02:01:18,440
Speaker 1: will not have to be subservient to the king. Oh,

2287
02:01:19,040 --> 02:01:23,360
Speaker 1: all sorts of based ship like that. My favorite So

2288
02:01:23,480 --> 02:01:28,080
Speaker 1: our guy Plato is like is like trying to determine,

2289
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:31,920
Speaker 1: trying to define like a human in the simplest way possible. Yes, yeah,

2290
02:01:32,200 --> 02:01:34,320
Speaker 1: like the Platonic idea. And he was, so he comes

2291
02:01:34,360 --> 02:01:36,440
Speaker 1: to the inclusion that like, well, it's a it's a

2292
02:01:36,560 --> 02:01:40,800
Speaker 1: it's a it's an unwinged biped um, and Diogenes supposedly

2293
02:01:40,840 --> 02:01:44,040
Speaker 1: goes grabs a plucked chicken and says, behold a man,

2294
02:01:44,600 --> 02:01:50,640
Speaker 1: like I found a dude. Rules um. He would he

2295
02:01:50,640 --> 02:01:53,640
Speaker 1: would famously walk around town in broad daylight with like

2296
02:01:53,720 --> 02:01:56,640
Speaker 1: a what do you call it, like a lantern, like

2297
02:01:56,720 --> 02:01:58,520
Speaker 1: looking around and people like, what are you looking for?

2298
02:01:58,560 --> 02:02:00,400
Speaker 1: It's like I'm looking for a man? He like, look

2299
02:02:00,400 --> 02:02:01,920
Speaker 1: at a dude, and you're like, I'm looking for a man.

2300
02:02:02,480 --> 02:02:04,520
Speaker 1: And as it is to say, like, none of you

2301
02:02:04,600 --> 02:02:07,400
Speaker 1: motherfucker's are people like you all think that you're human beings,

2302
02:02:07,400 --> 02:02:10,000
Speaker 1: but you're really just pieces of ship. It's just an

2303
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:12,800
Speaker 1: amazing asshole. Sorry that that we should move back to

2304
02:02:12,840 --> 02:02:17,400
Speaker 1: anti work, but that's yeah, yeah, but and this is

2305
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:19,880
Speaker 1: this is the funny that both both both American and

2306
02:02:20,000 --> 02:02:26,280
Speaker 1: Chinese like anti work people. Both fucking love Diogenes. Yeah,

2307
02:02:26,320 --> 02:02:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, very popular on our slash anti work. Yeah,

2308
02:02:30,600 --> 02:02:32,880
Speaker 1: and you know, and the thing I was reading about

2309
02:02:32,920 --> 02:02:34,640
Speaker 1: the like, you know, learn to live on lentils and

2310
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:37,880
Speaker 1: you'll never like after such a game by King that

2311
02:02:37,880 --> 02:02:41,959
Speaker 1: that's a lot of what lying down becomes. So very rapidly,

2312
02:02:42,720 --> 02:02:48,800
Speaker 1: this whole thing spreads into this like really it's a

2313
02:02:48,880 --> 02:02:51,360
Speaker 1: sort of astounding, you know, it starts out of the

2314
02:02:51,440 --> 02:02:55,160
Speaker 1: me and it spreads incredibly quickly, and the CCP gets

2315
02:02:55,240 --> 02:02:59,480
Speaker 1: like really really mad about this. Um so, so it's

2316
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:01,560
Speaker 1: like it's this. This starts in April, right, and in

2317
02:03:01,680 --> 02:03:05,280
Speaker 1: May there's they have this like enormous media blitz where

2318
02:03:05,360 --> 02:03:09,240
Speaker 1: like like the party is like outlet basically, and Guandong

2319
02:03:09,320 --> 02:03:12,080
Speaker 1: publishes like a four page long attack on the concept

2320
02:03:12,080 --> 02:03:14,280
Speaker 1: of lying down, like the cc the end of the

2321
02:03:14,360 --> 02:03:17,160
Speaker 1: newspapers everywhere published this stuff. Like the CCP like bands

2322
02:03:17,440 --> 02:03:20,840
Speaker 1: term la wee chat. Yeah, and it's funny because it's

2323
02:03:20,840 --> 02:03:22,280
Speaker 1: like if they do this, but it's too late, like

2324
02:03:22,280 --> 02:03:28,240
Speaker 1: it's yeah, and you know, so, so part part of

2325
02:03:28,240 --> 02:03:29,880
Speaker 1: a lying down is is about, you know, you have

2326
02:03:29,920 --> 02:03:32,760
Speaker 1: this incredibly fast paced, intense work culture, you have involution,

2327
02:03:32,880 --> 02:03:34,640
Speaker 1: you're working more and more and you're getting nothing out

2328
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:37,160
Speaker 1: of it. The lion flat is just going no, like

2329
02:03:37,360 --> 02:03:40,560
Speaker 1: you just lie down, you refuse to work. But it's

2330
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:42,080
Speaker 1: it's it's also it's more than that. And I think

2331
02:03:42,080 --> 02:03:43,520
Speaker 1: this is this goes back to the sort of broader

2332
02:03:43,560 --> 02:03:46,320
Speaker 1: conception of anti work. So on one of the slogans

2333
02:03:46,840 --> 02:03:50,200
Speaker 1: of this movement is don't bribe property, don't buy a car,

2334
02:03:50,360 --> 02:03:54,680
Speaker 1: don't get married, don't have children, and don't consume. And

2335
02:03:54,720 --> 02:03:56,160
Speaker 1: you know that the the last part of this is implied

2336
02:03:56,200 --> 02:03:59,120
Speaker 1: is don't work. And you know, there's a lot sort

2337
02:03:59,160 --> 02:04:01,400
Speaker 1: of going on here. I mean, you have you know,

2338
02:04:02,160 --> 02:04:04,480
Speaker 1: it's not just sort of a critique of like we

2339
02:04:04,560 --> 02:04:06,640
Speaker 1: work too hard. It's about you know, it's about the

2340
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:08,680
Speaker 1: sort of fall system. It's about the sort of patriarchy

2341
02:04:08,720 --> 02:04:10,640
Speaker 1: involved in this. It's about this sort of like force

2342
02:04:10,680 --> 02:04:15,120
Speaker 1: capitalist consumption. It's about like, you know, the fact that

2343
02:04:15,160 --> 02:04:18,480
Speaker 1: like literally a quarter of Chinese of China's economy or

2344
02:04:18,520 --> 02:04:22,440
Speaker 1: Chinese GDP is like all this real estate bullshit that

2345
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:24,720
Speaker 1: everyone knows who is going to collapse and even when

2346
02:04:24,720 --> 02:04:27,120
Speaker 1: it gets built like sucks. Thank god we don't have

2347
02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:29,680
Speaker 1: anything like that here. Yeah, I know, it's great It's

2348
02:04:29,680 --> 02:04:31,280
Speaker 1: one of one of the fun things about learned histories.

2349
02:04:31,280 --> 02:04:33,920
Speaker 1: You can just watch every country do exactly the same

2350
02:04:33,920 --> 02:04:37,160
Speaker 1: thing with their housing market, like Japan do it. It's

2351
02:04:37,200 --> 02:04:39,760
Speaker 1: like it's great, It's just like you also you think

2352
02:04:39,760 --> 02:04:42,520
Speaker 1: this will work? What what what extra fun thing is

2353
02:04:42,560 --> 02:04:44,520
Speaker 1: you get to watch every country do the same thing

2354
02:04:44,560 --> 02:04:51,280
Speaker 1: with farms and it always ended the same anyway. Yes,

2355
02:04:51,360 --> 02:04:55,000
Speaker 1: So there's there's a lot of you know, in order

2356
02:04:55,040 --> 02:04:57,120
Speaker 1: to sort of like facilitate this, you know, you get

2357
02:04:57,120 --> 02:04:58,960
Speaker 1: back to the Diogenes, So a lot of it what's

2358
02:04:58,960 --> 02:05:02,280
Speaker 1: happening is people sharing tips about how to make the

2359
02:05:02,360 --> 02:05:04,800
Speaker 1: cheapest food you can possibly survive on so you don't

2360
02:05:04,800 --> 02:05:08,440
Speaker 1: have to work, and so you know, and people the

2361
02:05:09,240 --> 02:05:12,840
Speaker 1: guy who wrote the Diogenes post like he spends thirty

2362
02:05:12,880 --> 02:05:15,280
Speaker 1: dollars a month and he does this by only eating

2363
02:05:15,360 --> 02:05:20,640
Speaker 1: dried ramen and eggs and like rice. Yeah, yeah, on

2364
02:05:20,760 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 1: the way to do it. This is like the most

2365
02:05:25,200 --> 02:05:27,160
Speaker 1: extreme example. I actually, I don't even think it is

2366
02:05:27,160 --> 02:05:31,360
Speaker 1: the most atreme example. A lot of people. One of

2367
02:05:31,360 --> 02:05:32,440
Speaker 1: the things that happens a lot is a bunch of

2368
02:05:32,440 --> 02:05:34,760
Speaker 1: people just like have left their jobs to become monks.

2369
02:05:35,280 --> 02:05:40,320
Speaker 1: This this is like a whole thing Buddhist, like honestly,

2370
02:05:41,560 --> 02:05:45,600
Speaker 1: like absolutely, And I used to live in a place

2371
02:05:45,680 --> 02:05:48,320
Speaker 1: in the middle of fucking nowhere, one of the most

2372
02:05:48,600 --> 02:05:52,520
Speaker 1: like isolated places I've ever lived that like had power

2373
02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:55,880
Speaker 1: um and one of the people who was like by neighbor,

2374
02:05:55,960 --> 02:05:59,000
Speaker 1: they were within several miles of us, was a monastery.

2375
02:05:59,160 --> 02:06:01,560
Speaker 1: This is in the United States, and like I went

2376
02:06:01,600 --> 02:06:03,520
Speaker 1: there once too because I heard they made good wine

2377
02:06:03,560 --> 02:06:05,120
Speaker 1: to try and get some of their wine, and like

2378
02:06:05,200 --> 02:06:06,920
Speaker 1: none of them would answer the door. I could see

2379
02:06:06,920 --> 02:06:09,960
Speaker 1: them inside all staring at me. They didn't do ship

2380
02:06:10,400 --> 02:06:13,120
Speaker 1: and my my overwhelming thought was like, yeah, that seems

2381
02:06:13,120 --> 02:06:16,320
Speaker 1: like a pretty good way to do it. Yeah, I

2382
02:06:16,920 --> 02:06:19,000
Speaker 1: see why you guys have picked this life. It was

2383
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:23,520
Speaker 1: also during the election back from the r n C

2384
02:06:23,720 --> 02:06:25,680
Speaker 1: and the d n C and was like, yeah, that

2385
02:06:25,720 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 1: seems smarter than what I'm doing. Yeah. So there's a

2386
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:32,160
Speaker 1: lot of you know, yeah, that'd be the stream example,

2387
02:06:32,160 --> 02:06:33,760
Speaker 1: like if people going to become monks. But like one

2388
02:06:33,800 --> 02:06:35,920
Speaker 1: of the things that's happening a lot is again, you know,

2389
02:06:36,000 --> 02:06:39,440
Speaker 1: China hasn't known its macrotworker population, and people are just

2390
02:06:39,520 --> 02:06:43,760
Speaker 1: like fuck this, I'm going back to my village, and

2391
02:06:43,760 --> 02:06:45,040
Speaker 1: so and you know, and this is you know, this

2392
02:06:45,160 --> 02:06:46,840
Speaker 1: this this, this is where they really screwed up with

2393
02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:49,800
Speaker 1: the YouTube stuff because you know, people were people, you know,

2394
02:06:50,080 --> 02:06:52,720
Speaker 1: they were gambling that that you know, you could just

2395
02:06:52,760 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 1: sell this as an aesthetic, and you know, you can't

2396
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:57,600
Speaker 1: sell it as an aesthetic like Chinese TikTok has this

2397
02:06:57,720 --> 02:07:00,800
Speaker 1: integrated thing in it. Were like, if if you plug

2398
02:07:01,040 --> 02:07:04,880
Speaker 1: like something to buy it, like you can like click

2399
02:07:04,960 --> 02:07:06,840
Speaker 1: it and it'll just it'll take you like to a

2400
02:07:06,920 --> 02:07:09,080
Speaker 1: link like to to to to the thing it's selling,

2401
02:07:10,360 --> 02:07:11,520
Speaker 1: you know. And so yeah, they don't make a norse

2402
02:07:11,520 --> 02:07:13,200
Speaker 1: amount of money on this, but you know, the the

2403
02:07:13,360 --> 02:07:15,400
Speaker 1: the other side of that sword is a bunch of

2404
02:07:15,400 --> 02:07:18,320
Speaker 1: people were like, I don't have to work this Like

2405
02:07:19,040 --> 02:07:21,560
Speaker 1: I don't have to work in a city. I can

2406
02:07:21,600 --> 02:07:25,680
Speaker 1: just go home. Yeah, and you know, and you know,

2407
02:07:25,720 --> 02:07:27,480
Speaker 1: and you know, so you know, as you're talking about

2408
02:07:27,520 --> 02:07:30,600
Speaker 1: the antiwork stuff, it's not actually possible for a lot

2409
02:07:30,640 --> 02:07:34,840
Speaker 1: of people to leave their jobs. So the solution to

2410
02:07:34,960 --> 02:07:40,040
Speaker 1: this was there there's a culture that developed called petting fish,

2411
02:07:40,400 --> 02:07:42,840
Speaker 1: which and but but before you talking about petting fish,

2412
02:07:42,880 --> 02:07:46,480
Speaker 1: you said something about uh, plugging things on TikTok, and

2413
02:07:46,600 --> 02:07:49,560
Speaker 1: you know, who you know, you know, like plugging like advertisements,

2414
02:07:49,800 --> 02:07:53,360
Speaker 1: and you know who also plugs plugs advertisements? Chris, Oh no,

2415
02:07:53,640 --> 02:07:58,600
Speaker 1: is it us? But our new sponsor is the Joe

2416
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:03,960
Speaker 1: Rogan Experience, brought to you by Honda Honda Drive a Car,

2417
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:10,400
Speaker 1: Do Fascism? Honda? Really? Yeah, Honda Garrison. Look, we don't

2418
02:08:10,440 --> 02:08:12,920
Speaker 1: We're not nearly a big enough podcast to get fucking

2419
02:08:13,800 --> 02:08:17,280
Speaker 1: to get a Toyota ad Are you crazy? Yeah? That's

2420
02:08:16,960 --> 02:08:19,920
Speaker 1: what we can dream big. Yeah, I mean that is

2421
02:08:19,960 --> 02:08:24,720
Speaker 1: the dream to sell Toyota's. I mean we could become

2422
02:08:24,920 --> 02:08:28,280
Speaker 1: used car salesman in the valley. All right, here's that

2423
02:08:29,760 --> 02:08:40,960
Speaker 1: ah back, cut that head and fish handle it. Keep

2424
02:08:41,000 --> 02:08:44,880
Speaker 1: it all in baby. Yeah. So there's there's all this

2425
02:08:44,920 --> 02:08:47,080
Speaker 1: thing called the petting fish, which is like Chinese slack

2426
02:08:47,120 --> 02:08:49,080
Speaker 1: off culture, and you know, somt of people sharing tips

2427
02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:50,600
Speaker 1: ab how to slack off at work, and it's it's

2428
02:08:50,640 --> 02:08:53,640
Speaker 1: kind of the equivalent like I love that it's called

2429
02:08:53,640 --> 02:08:56,800
Speaker 1: petting fish. And then also yeah, it's it's kind of

2430
02:08:56,800 --> 02:08:58,840
Speaker 1: the Chinese equivalent of like boss makes a dollar, I

2431
02:08:58,880 --> 02:09:02,440
Speaker 1: make a dime. That's why should company time. So people

2432
02:09:02,440 --> 02:09:03,920
Speaker 1: do just a lot of like they have a lot

2433
02:09:03,960 --> 02:09:06,120
Speaker 1: of like genuinely fun things they do. Like people people

2434
02:09:06,160 --> 02:09:09,600
Speaker 1: started putting like fake beatings on their calendars. People wouldn't

2435
02:09:09,600 --> 02:09:13,160
Speaker 1: bother them. They like they just like like, that's that's

2436
02:09:13,200 --> 02:09:15,800
Speaker 1: also that's that's that's also what I do. Yeah, yeah,

2437
02:09:15,840 --> 02:09:18,120
Speaker 1: I mean the if you want to make I love

2438
02:09:18,160 --> 02:09:19,960
Speaker 1: the term petting fish as well, but if you want

2439
02:09:19,960 --> 02:09:23,360
Speaker 1: to like make it sound cool. They're waging an insurgency

2440
02:09:23,440 --> 02:09:28,120
Speaker 1: from within capitalism by by by trying to take resources

2441
02:09:28,200 --> 02:09:32,560
Speaker 1: away from their employers, um without being spotted. Yeah, there's

2442
02:09:32,560 --> 02:09:34,400
Speaker 1: a there's a thing in volume one of Capital about

2443
02:09:34,440 --> 02:09:37,240
Speaker 1: this that I was like, oh, I could pull this up,

2444
02:09:37,320 --> 02:09:38,920
Speaker 1: and then I was like, that is too much work.

2445
02:09:38,960 --> 02:09:40,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. So I don't have

2446
02:09:40,400 --> 02:09:42,800
Speaker 1: the thing in volume one where he talks about struggling

2447
02:09:42,840 --> 02:09:45,360
Speaker 1: between about labor time. But instead you get a bunch

2448
02:09:45,360 --> 02:09:47,720
Speaker 1: of people like the Smike smuggling whiskey into work, taking

2449
02:09:47,720 --> 02:09:51,600
Speaker 1: through our lunch breaks. My favorite one actually work drink

2450
02:09:51,720 --> 02:09:58,600
Speaker 1: at work, especially if your nurse, oh boy, you probably

2451
02:09:58,640 --> 02:10:03,040
Speaker 1: killed about fifty people. This is gonna be crossed fingers crossed.

2452
02:10:03,680 --> 02:10:05,680
Speaker 1: So you know how like companies all have these like

2453
02:10:05,920 --> 02:10:10,160
Speaker 1: these really annoying like mindfulness fitness things. So one of

2454
02:10:10,200 --> 02:10:12,120
Speaker 1: these people started doing was okay, so you know, thinking

2455
02:10:12,240 --> 02:10:14,400
Speaker 1: like you have to drink eight hour, eight times a day.

2456
02:10:14,480 --> 02:10:17,120
Speaker 1: So they would set these alarms that's like, oh, I

2457
02:10:17,120 --> 02:10:18,640
Speaker 1: have to go drink my water. And so like every

2458
02:10:18,720 --> 02:10:21,000
Speaker 1: like every like fifty minutes or something, they just go

2459
02:10:21,120 --> 02:10:24,040
Speaker 1: up and like spend twenty minutes getting water and they

2460
02:10:24,040 --> 02:10:27,200
Speaker 1: sit back down. It's like you've just eviscerated and enormous

2461
02:10:27,200 --> 02:10:29,840
Speaker 1: part of your work day. And and the product of this,

2462
02:10:29,920 --> 02:10:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, this CP is really piste off about this.

2463
02:10:32,360 --> 02:10:34,280
Speaker 1: And you know, you get these giant billboards to say

2464
02:10:34,320 --> 02:10:37,240
Speaker 1: no lying flat, no petting fish on them or something.

2465
02:10:37,240 --> 02:10:40,080
Speaker 1: It would have been literally incomprehensible like a year ago.

2466
02:10:42,280 --> 02:10:46,000
Speaker 1: It's amazing. And you know, and I think this is

2467
02:10:46,040 --> 02:10:48,640
Speaker 1: something you know in the U s anti work, like

2468
02:10:48,760 --> 02:10:51,480
Speaker 1: the actual political class kind of has been ignoring it.

2469
02:10:51,520 --> 02:10:53,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you see a couple of acial antists in China.

2470
02:10:54,280 --> 02:10:57,000
Speaker 1: She Jing Ping like made a speech. It was like,

2471
02:10:57,440 --> 02:10:58,680
Speaker 1: you know, you have a private speech to a bunch

2472
02:10:58,680 --> 02:11:01,560
Speaker 1: of hoigh people in the party, and so a part

2473
02:11:01,560 --> 02:11:04,680
Speaker 1: of it a printage like a month ago or something

2474
02:11:04,680 --> 02:11:06,760
Speaker 1: I've I've lost track of all time. But like like,

2475
02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:09,000
Speaker 1: like specifically in this speech that chess and Ping is

2476
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:12,200
Speaker 1: making that is published in the official like theoretical journal,

2477
02:11:12,560 --> 02:11:15,960
Speaker 1: he's like explicitly saying like don't lie flat and saying

2478
02:11:16,040 --> 02:11:20,640
Speaker 1: quote happy life is earned through heart, hard work, and yeah,

2479
02:11:20,680 --> 02:11:22,040
Speaker 1: and he also has this this he has his ranch.

2480
02:11:22,120 --> 02:11:27,240
Speaker 1: But like denouncing welfare ism, which is great the communist

2481
02:11:27,280 --> 02:11:33,600
Speaker 1: vanguard there, Yeah, yeah, preaching the immortal science. Yeah, socialism

2482
02:11:33,680 --> 02:11:37,800
Speaker 1: with Chinese characteristics. Motherfucker's don't be a welfare queen. Follow

2483
02:11:39,120 --> 02:11:42,040
Speaker 1: It's great, you know, but it's interesting people. This is

2484
02:11:42,080 --> 02:11:43,800
Speaker 1: the one people are really freaked out about. Like I

2485
02:11:43,800 --> 02:11:46,360
Speaker 1: saw I saw like an American writer about this, who

2486
02:11:46,400 --> 02:11:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, They wrote like an article about this whole thing,

2487
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:50,640
Speaker 1: and then they were like this is gonna this is

2488
02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:54,040
Speaker 1: gonna cause inflation. It's like, this is gonna be the

2489
02:11:54,120 --> 02:11:58,720
Speaker 1: driver of what people just use the word inflation to

2490
02:11:58,800 --> 02:12:01,960
Speaker 1: mean whatever scary thing they want. Yeah, well they're they're like, oh,

2491
02:12:02,000 --> 02:12:03,680
Speaker 1: this will this will increase wages and that will lead

2492
02:12:03,720 --> 02:12:07,960
Speaker 1: to inflation and we'll get the seventies again. And I'm like, God,

2493
02:12:09,080 --> 02:12:11,480
Speaker 1: maybe get a tallow disco again. Did you ever think

2494
02:12:11,520 --> 02:12:14,920
Speaker 1: of that guy that we that were are reserves of

2495
02:12:14,920 --> 02:12:19,400
Speaker 1: a tallow disco are critically low. Do you wonder what

2496
02:12:19,440 --> 02:12:22,720
Speaker 1: a tallow disco is? No idea, that's a shame. All right,

2497
02:12:22,800 --> 02:12:24,800
Speaker 1: let's continue what what what type of like is there

2498
02:12:24,840 --> 02:12:26,600
Speaker 1: is there like any like you said, this kind of

2499
02:12:26,600 --> 02:12:29,040
Speaker 1: stuff started to like move leftwards. Is there any like

2500
02:12:29,040 --> 02:12:32,000
Speaker 1: actual like leftist organizing in these types of places. So

2501
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:33,560
Speaker 1: so this is the thing I was getting to, which

2502
02:12:33,560 --> 02:12:35,040
Speaker 1: is that, like, you know, people are starting to do

2503
02:12:35,080 --> 02:12:37,480
Speaker 1: reading groups. But the problem, the problem with leftist organizing

2504
02:12:37,480 --> 02:12:40,320
Speaker 1: in China is that, you know, so state policy in

2505
02:12:40,320 --> 02:12:42,480
Speaker 1: the past three years has been like if you poke

2506
02:12:42,560 --> 02:12:45,160
Speaker 1: your head above ground, you get arrested. So you know,

2507
02:12:45,200 --> 02:12:48,480
Speaker 1: I mean, for example, there was there was a strike

2508
02:12:48,520 --> 02:12:50,960
Speaker 1: at Jasick and you know, a bunch of student groups

2509
02:12:50,960 --> 02:12:53,240
Speaker 1: who've been organizing for a long time like try to

2510
02:12:53,280 --> 02:12:55,320
Speaker 1: do alldrety with it, and they all got arrested. The

2511
02:12:55,320 --> 02:12:57,280
Speaker 1: people who are people who let the strike got arrested.

2512
02:12:57,320 --> 02:12:58,760
Speaker 1: All that the students who are doing is ald already

2513
02:12:58,800 --> 02:13:02,400
Speaker 1: got arrested. People like people got arrested for like like

2514
02:13:02,640 --> 02:13:05,680
Speaker 1: dancing with like university students got arrested for like dancing

2515
02:13:05,680 --> 02:13:13,200
Speaker 1: with the people who were like cleaning the floors. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

2516
02:13:13,240 --> 02:13:18,440
Speaker 1: like the yeah, like it's it's incredible and like, you know,

2517
02:13:19,240 --> 02:13:20,800
Speaker 1: and the other thing that you can see about this

2518
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:22,440
Speaker 1: was so so for example, there was there was a

2519
02:13:22,440 --> 02:13:25,760
Speaker 1: guy doing like delivery driver organizing. It was kind of weird.

2520
02:13:25,760 --> 02:13:27,760
Speaker 1: He was like kind of an entrepreneur kind of doing

2521
02:13:28,280 --> 02:13:31,720
Speaker 1: delivery driver organizing. Like he got arrested. And then you know,

2522
02:13:31,760 --> 02:13:33,400
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks later this people like, oh,

2523
02:13:33,440 --> 02:13:36,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna like do things to improve the conditions of

2524
02:13:36,240 --> 02:13:39,240
Speaker 1: of of delivery drivers, and you know, who knows if

2525
02:13:39,280 --> 02:13:41,840
Speaker 1: that's going to happen. But like, you know, basically like

2526
02:13:41,920 --> 02:13:45,320
Speaker 1: any anyone out for some reason that the people in

2527
02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:47,320
Speaker 1: the tech sector have been able to get away with

2528
02:13:47,360 --> 02:13:51,600
Speaker 1: more for reasons that are probably class based, and I

2529
02:13:51,600 --> 02:13:53,720
Speaker 1: think then take them seriously in the way they do

2530
02:13:53,800 --> 02:13:57,720
Speaker 1: with students to factory workers. But you know, and actually

2531
02:13:57,720 --> 02:13:59,520
Speaker 1: I mean the fact that the tech workers like kind

2532
02:13:59,520 --> 02:14:01,600
Speaker 1: of recently like that there's a tech worker thing calling

2533
02:14:01,640 --> 02:14:04,680
Speaker 1: for like like democratic control of production, which is wild.

2534
02:14:05,440 --> 02:14:07,960
Speaker 1: But other than those guys like you can't you know,

2535
02:14:08,040 --> 02:14:10,720
Speaker 1: you can't stick your head up, you get flattened. So

2536
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:13,080
Speaker 1: this has sort of been the result of this, which

2537
02:14:13,120 --> 02:14:15,960
Speaker 1: is this, like you know, the sort of the like

2538
02:14:16,040 --> 02:14:18,640
Speaker 1: lying flat is this. You know, it's this mass decentralized

2539
02:14:18,680 --> 02:14:21,480
Speaker 1: movements that you know, there's there's no one to hit

2540
02:14:21,520 --> 02:14:25,520
Speaker 1: with a hammer, and you know, and and I think, like, okay,

2541
02:14:25,520 --> 02:14:27,000
Speaker 1: so one of one of the other quotes that's that's

2542
02:14:27,040 --> 02:14:29,400
Speaker 1: been going around about lying flat is it's it's a poem.

2543
02:14:29,480 --> 02:14:34,200
Speaker 1: It doesn't poem as well in English, but this, this

2544
02:14:34,240 --> 02:14:36,720
Speaker 1: is the best we've got. Lying flat is to not

2545
02:14:36,800 --> 02:14:40,000
Speaker 1: bow down. Lying flat is to not kneel. Lying flat

2546
02:14:40,080 --> 02:14:43,520
Speaker 1: is to stand up horizontally. Lying flat is a straight spine.

2547
02:14:44,240 --> 02:14:46,720
Speaker 1: And so you know what was basically happening here is

2548
02:14:46,720 --> 02:14:50,000
Speaker 1: is it's a combination of the tendencies you see in

2549
02:14:50,040 --> 02:14:53,200
Speaker 1: the US, where you know, a bunch of people terrible jobs,

2550
02:14:53,520 --> 02:14:56,440
Speaker 1: realizing that everything is pointless. And then also this is

2551
02:14:56,480 --> 02:14:59,320
Speaker 1: a way you can, like, this is the way you

2552
02:14:59,360 --> 02:15:03,840
Speaker 1: can like your boss without like the police showing up. Yeah,

2553
02:15:04,320 --> 02:15:08,880
Speaker 1: and so there's there's some interesting like political stuff. So there,

2554
02:15:08,920 --> 02:15:10,680
Speaker 1: there's there, there's there's there's if if you look at

2555
02:15:10,680 --> 02:15:12,560
Speaker 1: the doc, there's there's a bunch of memes here because

2556
02:15:12,560 --> 02:15:15,400
Speaker 1: they're great. So there's there's been a thing with these

2557
02:15:15,400 --> 02:15:17,680
Speaker 1: people talking about how people are leaks, which they're like

2558
02:15:17,720 --> 02:15:20,560
Speaker 1: their leaks, they're harvested over and over again and they're

2559
02:15:20,560 --> 02:15:24,400
Speaker 1: being exploited and like the plants, yeah, like like leaks

2560
02:15:24,400 --> 02:15:26,200
Speaker 1: like yeah, you eat. And so they have this thing.

2561
02:15:26,240 --> 02:15:28,520
Speaker 1: It's a leaks that life flat cannot be so easily

2562
02:15:28,560 --> 02:15:30,680
Speaker 1: harvested and it's just like a knife go like try

2563
02:15:30,920 --> 02:15:32,640
Speaker 1: like a machette, like trying to swing at a bunch

2564
02:15:32,680 --> 02:15:35,520
Speaker 1: of leaks, but leaks are flats, so they can't hit them.

2565
02:15:35,560 --> 02:15:39,520
Speaker 1: And see what I like, I like all of this. Yeah, yeah,

2566
02:15:39,560 --> 02:15:42,480
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's you know, and so and so

2567
02:15:42,600 --> 02:15:45,400
Speaker 1: what the product of this is that yeah, like this this, this,

2568
02:15:45,400 --> 02:15:48,120
Speaker 1: this has this stuff has actually been effective enough that

2569
02:15:48,240 --> 02:15:51,280
Speaker 1: the CCP, like you know, I mean the CCP is

2570
02:15:51,280 --> 02:15:53,240
Speaker 1: is taking it seriously, but you know, there's not much

2571
02:15:53,280 --> 02:15:56,960
Speaker 1: they can do about it because like if someone's just like, oh,

2572
02:15:57,280 --> 02:15:59,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to go from a job that's really high

2573
02:16:00,080 --> 02:16:02,200
Speaker 1: stress to one that's less high stress, like what are

2574
02:16:02,200 --> 02:16:03,920
Speaker 1: you're gonna are you just gonna arrest them? Like what

2575
02:16:03,920 --> 02:16:07,120
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? And so this yeah, this,

2576
02:16:07,320 --> 02:16:11,760
Speaker 1: this has been building for a while now, and I

2577
02:16:11,800 --> 02:16:15,280
Speaker 1: don't know who who knows exactly like where it's going

2578
02:16:15,360 --> 02:16:20,040
Speaker 1: to go, but it's it's it's already you know. It's

2579
02:16:20,080 --> 02:16:22,520
Speaker 1: something that people can do as an individual in a

2580
02:16:22,600 --> 02:16:26,040
Speaker 1: place where organized political action is impossible in a way

2581
02:16:26,120 --> 02:16:28,360
Speaker 1: such that you know that their individual actions have a

2582
02:16:28,360 --> 02:16:31,880
Speaker 1: collective effect, but one that can't be just you know,

2583
02:16:32,160 --> 02:16:35,680
Speaker 1: pounded down. Yeah, I mean, it is certainly interesting to

2584
02:16:35,720 --> 02:16:39,880
Speaker 1: see two completely separate, like anti work style movements around

2585
02:16:40,000 --> 02:16:42,760
Speaker 1: basically around the same same exact time, with the same

2586
02:16:42,760 --> 02:16:46,600
Speaker 1: exact points, if you're totally different languages. If you're someone

2587
02:16:46,640 --> 02:16:51,520
Speaker 1: who's interested in massive global revolutionary change, this should probably

2588
02:16:51,720 --> 02:16:54,240
Speaker 1: be a thing that you are looking at and studying

2589
02:16:54,280 --> 02:16:58,199
Speaker 1: and thinking a lot about. Because perhaps while we're arguing

2590
02:16:58,240 --> 02:17:02,440
Speaker 1: about ship that people started talking about in the eighteen seventies, this,

2591
02:17:02,440 --> 02:17:06,360
Speaker 1: this might be a better thing to do than than that, uh,

2592
02:17:06,560 --> 02:17:10,400
Speaker 1: because because it's it seems like there's some potential here. Yeah,

2593
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:12,320
Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, I mean, you know, if if

2594
02:17:12,360 --> 02:17:15,000
Speaker 1: if you if you know, any any any any actual

2595
02:17:15,200 --> 02:17:17,240
Speaker 1: revolutionary project that makes the world better is going to

2596
02:17:17,280 --> 02:17:20,800
Speaker 1: have to be international. And that's been you know, that

2597
02:17:20,800 --> 02:17:23,000
Speaker 1: that that that that's been the bane of all revolutionary

2598
02:17:23,040 --> 02:17:27,480
Speaker 1: movements forever but you know, okay, so we have you

2599
02:17:27,480 --> 02:17:30,040
Speaker 1: know that we we have something to Chinese. The American

2600
02:17:30,080 --> 02:17:33,360
Speaker 1: working class agrees on, which is Diogenes is based in

2601
02:17:33,440 --> 02:17:38,600
Speaker 1: work sucks. Yeah, So as you go forward into your

2602
02:17:38,640 --> 02:17:42,440
Speaker 1: life this week, um, take a page from Diogenes as

2603
02:17:42,480 --> 02:17:47,400
Speaker 1: his book and got on the people ship on the

2604
02:17:47,480 --> 02:17:51,000
Speaker 1: floor of a free people or yeah, if free people

2605
02:17:51,000 --> 02:17:53,280
Speaker 1: are in h and M go walk into one and

2606
02:17:53,360 --> 02:17:59,200
Speaker 1: just just just go absolutely ruin that tile. I mean,

2607
02:17:59,640 --> 02:18:03,360
Speaker 1: fuck it. This is why my my my biggest political

2608
02:18:03,400 --> 02:18:07,360
Speaker 1: advice to friends who has always been learned to run fast,

2609
02:18:07,760 --> 02:18:10,200
Speaker 1: because if you learn to run fast, you can do

2610
02:18:10,320 --> 02:18:14,200
Speaker 1: so many more fun things in a store and then

2611
02:18:14,280 --> 02:18:17,000
Speaker 1: run fast that it's done right. The problem is that

2612
02:18:17,000 --> 02:18:19,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people like who who want to do

2613
02:18:19,120 --> 02:18:22,200
Speaker 1: this can't run fast enough. So learn to run fast

2614
02:18:22,200 --> 02:18:25,240
Speaker 1: to do this. There, It's like Mouse said, all political

2615
02:18:25,280 --> 02:18:27,879
Speaker 1: power comes from being able to ship really fast and

2616
02:18:27,920 --> 02:18:31,400
Speaker 1: the doors of a free people. Just get that out

2617
02:18:31,400 --> 02:18:35,680
Speaker 1: of there. The immortal science. Look, I think I think

2618
02:18:35,720 --> 02:18:40,240
Speaker 1: I think we should leave with with the real immortal science,

2619
02:18:40,320 --> 02:18:45,520
Speaker 1: the the immortal words of a skeleton from the share zone.

2620
02:18:45,840 --> 02:18:50,000
Speaker 1: Just walk out. You can leave work, social things, movie

2621
02:18:50,720 --> 02:18:55,879
Speaker 1: home class dentist, close shops to fancy weed store cops.

2622
02:18:55,920 --> 02:18:59,480
Speaker 1: If you're quick, friendships, if it sucks, hit the bricks,

2623
02:19:00,120 --> 02:19:04,040
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, as as some comedian who I can't remember

2624
02:19:04,040 --> 02:19:08,040
Speaker 1: now said, always have an exit plan like that, that

2625
02:19:08,040 --> 02:19:11,199
Speaker 1: that should be your thought for everything everything in the world.

2626
02:19:11,959 --> 02:19:15,879
Speaker 1: Hit the fucking bricks, Get out anyway, Get out of

2627
02:19:15,879 --> 02:19:24,119
Speaker 1: this podcast episode Now from Calvary Audio comes the new

2628
02:19:24,200 --> 02:19:28,879
Speaker 1: true crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. I always wanted to

2629
02:19:28,920 --> 02:19:31,040
Speaker 1: know what it felt like. He killed somebody and he

2630
02:19:31,120 --> 02:19:35,000
Speaker 1: started laughing. Prosecutors described him as a serial killer survant,

2631
02:19:35,200 --> 02:19:38,640
Speaker 1: kicking up these girls, getting him in a position of vulnerability.

2632
02:19:38,800 --> 02:19:40,600
Speaker 1: When he got a hold of their neck, that was it.

2633
02:19:40,920 --> 02:19:44,200
Speaker 1: I'm Caroline Asia, a journalist and lifelong resident at the

2634
02:19:44,240 --> 02:19:47,280
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest. I grew up near the banks of the

2635
02:19:47,320 --> 02:19:50,320
Speaker 1: Green River and in the shadow of the killer that

2636
02:19:50,400 --> 02:19:54,160
Speaker 1: bears its name. Time did you bring the camera? Time?

2637
02:19:54,360 --> 02:19:58,280
Speaker 1: Just want He started fantasizing about having sex with his mother,

2638
02:19:58,480 --> 02:20:02,240
Speaker 1: and he fantasized about killing her. But this podcast isn't

2639
02:20:02,280 --> 02:20:05,600
Speaker 1: only about tracking down the killer. It's about the victims.

2640
02:20:06,000 --> 02:20:08,360
Speaker 1: We stayed in the woods. He always liked to go

2641
02:20:08,440 --> 02:20:11,840
Speaker 1: in the woods. It's just all of the kind of strange.

2642
02:20:12,360 --> 02:20:14,840
Speaker 1: You know how it feels about prostitutes. Listen to the

2643
02:20:14,840 --> 02:20:17,920
Speaker 1: Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple

2644
02:20:17,959 --> 02:20:23,760
Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Give us the attention.

2645
02:20:23,840 --> 02:20:26,800
Speaker 1: We need everything you've got Fast Waiting on Reparations we

2646
02:20:27,000 --> 02:20:30,960
Speaker 1: beat the podcast Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay.

2647
02:20:31,080 --> 02:20:32,959
Speaker 1: We fight for the people because they got us in

2648
02:20:33,040 --> 02:20:35,600
Speaker 1: the worst way from the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay.

2649
02:20:35,760 --> 02:20:38,600
Speaker 1: To cut from the left enclave to what the neo

2650
02:20:38,680 --> 02:20:42,440
Speaker 1: kansee every Thursday the heading conversation, and to break us

2651
02:20:42,440 --> 02:20:45,160
Speaker 1: off with some break because we wait in the reparations.

2652
02:20:46,000 --> 02:20:48,720
Speaker 1: Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app,

2653
02:20:48,879 --> 02:20:58,800
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to

2654
02:20:58,800 --> 02:21:02,240
Speaker 1: Dick It Happen Here, podcast about things falling apart from

2655
02:21:02,240 --> 02:21:05,199
Speaker 1: what you can do about it. My name is Christopher Wong,

2656
02:21:05,360 --> 02:21:08,200
Speaker 1: and today I'm gonna be talking about sabotage. But this

2657
02:21:08,280 --> 02:21:11,760
Speaker 1: is not the episode on sabotage that you expect. I

2658
02:21:11,800 --> 02:21:15,560
Speaker 1: will not be discussing, for example, the destruction of machinery,

2659
02:21:15,959 --> 02:21:19,240
Speaker 1: throwing monkey wrenches, slow down strikes, to the myriad of

2660
02:21:19,280 --> 02:21:22,000
Speaker 1: other tactics that workers have used since time immemorium to

2661
02:21:22,040 --> 02:21:25,400
Speaker 1: strike back at their bosses. No. Instead, I'm going to

2662
02:21:25,440 --> 02:21:28,520
Speaker 1: be talking about a four more common and infinitely more

2663
02:21:28,640 --> 02:21:34,560
Speaker 1: dangerous form of sabotage, corporate sabotage. Now, the most conficuous

2664
02:21:34,560 --> 02:21:37,120
Speaker 1: form of corporate sabotage is the mass destruction of a

2665
02:21:37,160 --> 02:21:41,560
Speaker 1: corporation's own products. The fashion company Burberry, for example, destroyed

2666
02:21:41,600 --> 02:21:44,200
Speaker 1: three hundred and seventy million dollars off its own product

2667
02:21:44,200 --> 02:21:48,200
Speaker 1: in one year alone. Louis Vutton and Chanel also systematically

2668
02:21:48,240 --> 02:21:51,280
Speaker 1: destroy their own sold stock every year, joining H and

2669
02:21:51,400 --> 02:21:53,720
Speaker 1: M and literally lighting their own sold products on fire

2670
02:21:53,760 --> 02:21:58,920
Speaker 1: in order to prevent anyone from using them. Quote business insider, Rieschamont,

2671
02:21:59,040 --> 02:22:02,039
Speaker 1: the owner of Cadley vont Blanc, destroyed more than four

2672
02:22:02,480 --> 02:22:05,240
Speaker 1: million pounds of watches over a two year period after

2673
02:22:05,280 --> 02:22:08,400
Speaker 1: an excess in goods in the Asian markets. Nicki has

2674
02:22:08,440 --> 02:22:11,720
Speaker 1: also admitted that a New York store slashed unsold trainers

2675
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:14,959
Speaker 1: before throwing them away, and last year, an Urban Outfits

2676
02:22:15,000 --> 02:22:17,680
Speaker 1: employee said he was instructed to pour green paints on

2677
02:22:17,720 --> 02:22:21,120
Speaker 1: the unsold stock. These, of course, are only the stories

2678
02:22:21,120 --> 02:22:24,160
Speaker 1: that evaded into the press, and this behavior is by

2679
02:22:24,160 --> 02:22:27,879
Speaker 1: no means limited to high fashion grocery stores routinely throw

2680
02:22:27,920 --> 02:22:32,040
Speaker 1: away enormous quantities of unsold goods, and when communities realized

2681
02:22:32,080 --> 02:22:34,480
Speaker 1: they could feed people in need by taking the still

2682
02:22:34,560 --> 02:22:37,879
Speaker 1: good products from grocery store dumpstairs, the stories began to

2683
02:22:37,959 --> 02:22:41,840
Speaker 1: destroy their food intentionally. But these acts of destruction, as

2684
02:22:41,840 --> 02:22:44,880
Speaker 1: callous and horrifically greedy as they are, are by no

2685
02:22:45,040 --> 02:22:49,800
Speaker 1: means the extent of corporate sabotage. To explain I turned

2686
02:22:49,800 --> 02:22:53,920
Speaker 1: to the work of the economist Thorston Veblen. Feblin is

2687
02:22:53,959 --> 02:22:57,119
Speaker 1: perhaps best known today for the theory of conspicuous consumption,

2688
02:22:58,000 --> 02:23:02,360
Speaker 1: but he wrote extensively on corporate sabotage in the first

2689
02:23:02,400 --> 02:23:04,840
Speaker 1: part of The Engineers and the Price System, a work

2690
02:23:04,920 --> 02:23:08,400
Speaker 1: that isn't broadly ignored even by his followers. Feblen rode

2691
02:23:08,400 --> 02:23:11,359
Speaker 1: a section called on the Nature and Uses of Sabotage

2692
02:23:12,440 --> 02:23:15,680
Speaker 1: from that work. Writers and speakers who dilate on the

2693
02:23:15,720 --> 02:23:20,039
Speaker 1: militarious exploits of the nation's businessmen will not commonly allude

2694
02:23:20,080 --> 02:23:24,720
Speaker 1: to this voluminous, running administration of sabotage, this conscientious withdrawal

2695
02:23:24,760 --> 02:23:28,480
Speaker 1: of efficiency that goes into their ordinary day's work. We

2696
02:23:28,520 --> 02:23:31,240
Speaker 1: are not used to thinking of the ordinary work of

2697
02:23:31,280 --> 02:23:35,760
Speaker 1: a corporation being sabotage. But for Veblen there was no

2698
02:23:35,840 --> 02:23:38,720
Speaker 1: other explanation from what he was seeing. In the wake

2699
02:23:38,800 --> 02:23:41,880
Speaker 1: of World War One, there was an enormous explosion and unemployment,

2700
02:23:42,360 --> 02:23:45,560
Speaker 1: an enormous need on half of the population. But even

2701
02:23:45,600 --> 02:23:48,200
Speaker 1: as the unemployed begged to be let in to create

2702
02:23:48,240 --> 02:23:50,840
Speaker 1: the products that could build the needs of their fellow humans,

2703
02:23:51,160 --> 02:23:55,800
Speaker 1: business owners steadfastly refused to open their factories. As Veblen explained,

2704
02:23:56,480 --> 02:23:59,360
Speaker 1: but for reasons of business expediency, it is impossible to

2705
02:23:59,440 --> 02:24:01,760
Speaker 1: let these idle plants and idle workmen go to work,

2706
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:04,800
Speaker 1: that is to say, for reasons of insufficient profit to

2707
02:24:04,840 --> 02:24:08,320
Speaker 1: the businessmen interested, or in other words, for reasons of

2708
02:24:08,360 --> 02:24:11,480
Speaker 1: insufficient income to the vested interests which controlled the staple

2709
02:24:11,520 --> 02:24:15,800
Speaker 1: industries and so regulate the output of product. Feblun was

2710
02:24:15,840 --> 02:24:19,680
Speaker 1: not alone in observing these are similar conditions. John Maynard Keynes,

2711
02:24:20,120 --> 02:24:23,280
Speaker 1: writing during the depression, observed newly precisely the same thing.

2712
02:24:24,840 --> 02:24:27,320
Speaker 1: For Canes, the solution simply was to have the government

2713
02:24:27,360 --> 02:24:31,720
Speaker 1: step into increased demand. But for Veblen dismissed the core

2714
02:24:31,760 --> 02:24:33,640
Speaker 1: of the problem. The real problem was at a core

2715
02:24:33,720 --> 02:24:36,320
Speaker 1: of absentee owners had the ability to shut down the

2716
02:24:36,360 --> 02:24:39,080
Speaker 1: factories in the first place by simple virtue of their ownership,

2717
02:24:39,720 --> 02:24:43,360
Speaker 1: Feblen argued, was simply sabotage, no different from the hated

2718
02:24:43,400 --> 02:24:46,520
Speaker 1: strikes of the I w W that's so racked and

2719
02:24:46,560 --> 02:24:49,200
Speaker 1: perturbed the capitalist ruling class of his time. At least

2720
02:24:49,240 --> 02:24:52,760
Speaker 1: the workers could argue that they were simply fighting for

2721
02:24:52,800 --> 02:24:55,520
Speaker 1: a better share of what they had created. Absentee owners,

2722
02:24:55,560 --> 02:24:58,480
Speaker 1: on the other hand, who had no actual involvement in

2723
02:24:58,520 --> 02:25:02,480
Speaker 1: the production process whatsoever, simply carried out sabotage on an

2724
02:25:02,600 --> 02:25:06,520
Speaker 1: enormous scale in order to secure their own returns, and

2725
02:25:06,600 --> 02:25:08,920
Speaker 1: this was true even in times they weren't marked by

2726
02:25:08,959 --> 02:25:13,040
Speaker 1: massive depressions. In order to make payments to capitalists, Febuin argued,

2727
02:25:13,400 --> 02:25:15,800
Speaker 1: who expect a certain rate of return on their investment,

2728
02:25:16,120 --> 02:25:18,760
Speaker 1: corporations must maintain prices at such a level that they

2729
02:25:18,760 --> 02:25:21,160
Speaker 1: can meet their returns, and the only way they can

2730
02:25:21,200 --> 02:25:23,800
Speaker 1: do this is sabotage. For the good of business, it

2731
02:25:23,920 --> 02:25:26,520
Speaker 1: is necessary to curtail production of the means of life

2732
02:25:26,920 --> 02:25:30,080
Speaker 1: on pain of unprofitable prices, at the same time that

2733
02:25:30,440 --> 02:25:33,200
Speaker 1: the increasing need of all sorts of necessities of life

2734
02:25:33,280 --> 02:25:36,400
Speaker 1: must be met. In some passable fashion on pain of

2735
02:25:36,400 --> 02:25:40,480
Speaker 1: popular disturbances, as it will always come of popular distrust

2736
02:25:40,520 --> 02:25:44,119
Speaker 1: when they passed a limit of tolerance. The sabotage, Feblan argue,

2737
02:25:44,200 --> 02:25:47,040
Speaker 1: was simply the product of the price system. Any production

2738
02:25:47,040 --> 02:25:49,880
Speaker 1: that was too efficient would simply and inevitably be sabotaged

2739
02:25:49,920 --> 02:25:53,879
Speaker 1: for private gain, because in order to maintain prices that

2740
02:25:53,920 --> 02:25:57,000
Speaker 1: would maintain the returns of investors, it was necessary when

2741
02:25:57,000 --> 02:26:00,200
Speaker 1: sure that production never became too efficient to produce too

2742
02:26:00,200 --> 02:26:03,840
Speaker 1: many goods. Feplin used as his example the twentieth century

2743
02:26:03,840 --> 02:26:06,120
Speaker 1: post Office, but we could just as easily point to

2744
02:26:06,160 --> 02:26:09,640
Speaker 1: Trump sabotaging the post office in a dual bid to

2745
02:26:09,680 --> 02:26:12,640
Speaker 1: privatize the service by causing it to collapse and prevent

2746
02:26:12,720 --> 02:26:14,640
Speaker 1: mail and votes from being counted, as part of his

2747
02:26:14,680 --> 02:26:17,280
Speaker 1: attempt to win the two thousand twenty election. In their

2748
02:26:17,280 --> 02:26:22,200
Speaker 1: book Capitalist Power, Condis Shimshawan Bickler, and Jonathan Needson take

2749
02:26:22,280 --> 02:26:26,440
Speaker 1: Feplin's argument and expand on it, noting that capitalism, far

2750
02:26:26,520 --> 02:26:31,199
Speaker 1: from encouraging productivity at large, makes things inefficient on purpose.

2751
02:26:32,000 --> 02:26:35,520
Speaker 1: They used the example of public transportation, which is by

2752
02:26:35,560 --> 02:26:38,320
Speaker 1: bay essentially any measure, a significantly more efficient way of

2753
02:26:38,360 --> 02:26:42,680
Speaker 1: moving people around the US. As an example, in the

2754
02:26:42,760 --> 02:26:45,760
Speaker 1: US and the nineteen forties, a hundred electric rail lines

2755
02:26:45,800 --> 02:26:50,080
Speaker 1: were brought up and destroyed by car companies. Those same companies,

2756
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:54,920
Speaker 1: likewise twice destroyed incredibly efficient and popular electric cars, once

2757
02:26:54,959 --> 02:26:57,400
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties and again in the nineteen eighties

2758
02:26:57,680 --> 02:27:00,280
Speaker 1: because the profit rate was lower than that of gas ours.

2759
02:27:01,200 --> 02:27:03,280
Speaker 1: They then set out to cause everyone to forget that

2760
02:27:03,320 --> 02:27:05,959
Speaker 1: they had actually done this until Elon Musk figured out

2761
02:27:05,959 --> 02:27:08,720
Speaker 1: a way to sell electric cars that was profitable, namely

2762
02:27:08,760 --> 02:27:11,840
Speaker 1: by selling himself as a brad and not the cars themselves. Now,

2763
02:27:11,879 --> 02:27:14,800
Speaker 1: if capitalism was simply destroying its own products in order

2764
02:27:14,840 --> 02:27:17,760
Speaker 1: to create Elon Musks, you could argue that the system

2765
02:27:17,800 --> 02:27:20,760
Speaker 1: at least produced advancements before it stopped them. But the

2766
02:27:20,800 --> 02:27:25,640
Speaker 1: most violent forms of sabotage are reserved for productive systems

2767
02:27:25,680 --> 02:27:29,440
Speaker 1: that are simultaneously efficient and outside of capitalist control together.

2768
02:27:30,600 --> 02:27:32,920
Speaker 1: Perhaps the best known example of this is the East

2769
02:27:32,920 --> 02:27:37,039
Speaker 1: British East India companies. The industrialization of the Indian textile industry,

2770
02:27:37,240 --> 02:27:41,279
Speaker 1: not to be outmatched by the British forebearers, American settlers

2771
02:27:41,680 --> 02:27:45,320
Speaker 1: and their allies in the American military sterminated the Buffalo

2772
02:27:45,440 --> 02:27:48,760
Speaker 1: herds of the Great Plains in an attempt to starve

2773
02:27:48,760 --> 02:27:52,160
Speaker 1: out the indigenous tribes that lived there. In doing so,

2774
02:27:52,280 --> 02:27:55,760
Speaker 1: they destroyed an enormously productive and sustainable agricultural system. It

2775
02:27:55,840 --> 02:27:59,959
Speaker 1: did so precisely because the system was efficient, So efficient,

2776
02:28:00,080 --> 02:28:04,920
Speaker 1: in fact, that it allowed indigenous tribes to repeatedly defeat

2777
02:28:04,920 --> 02:28:07,800
Speaker 1: the American army and defence of their lands. We are

2778
02:28:07,879 --> 02:28:10,600
Speaker 1: used to thinking of capitalism as the system of production,

2779
02:28:11,320 --> 02:28:15,280
Speaker 1: but here, amidst the fields of buffalo corpses something else

2780
02:28:15,440 --> 02:28:19,840
Speaker 1: entirely capitalism appearing in its true form, a system of

2781
02:28:19,959 --> 02:28:24,280
Speaker 1: organized sabotage. To fully untangle what this means, let us

2782
02:28:24,280 --> 02:28:29,519
Speaker 1: return to Veeblin. Feblin divided capitalism into two separate processes.

2783
02:28:30,000 --> 02:28:34,760
Speaker 1: The first he called industry. Industry, Feblin argued, has existed

2784
02:28:35,040 --> 02:28:37,920
Speaker 1: long before capitalism and will continue to exist long after

2785
02:28:38,000 --> 02:28:41,320
Speaker 1: it has bit clear and nietzs and put it quote

2786
02:28:41,800 --> 02:28:46,240
Speaker 1: when considered an isolation from contemporary business institutions. The principal

2787
02:28:46,240 --> 02:28:50,760
Speaker 1: goal of industry it's raison, according to Veblen, is the

2788
02:28:50,800 --> 02:28:53,800
Speaker 1: efficient production of quality goods and services for the betterment

2789
02:28:53,879 --> 02:28:59,080
Speaker 1: of human life. Industry is an inherently collective undertaking basis

2790
02:28:59,080 --> 02:29:03,400
Speaker 1: is cooperation, integration, the creation of communal knowledge that allows

2791
02:29:03,440 --> 02:29:07,519
Speaker 1: production and scientific advance to occur, and coordination and cooperation

2792
02:29:07,600 --> 02:29:10,840
Speaker 1: between people to create things for each other. Left to

2793
02:29:10,840 --> 02:29:13,879
Speaker 1: its own devices, industry would simply produce goods for people.

2794
02:29:14,000 --> 02:29:19,480
Speaker 1: It has no concern for profitability, rates of returns, or capitalization. Unfortunately,

2795
02:29:19,640 --> 02:29:22,840
Speaker 1: capitalism is defined by private ownership. This is what Veblen

2796
02:29:22,879 --> 02:29:26,480
Speaker 1: calls business. Business is a system of power that extracts

2797
02:29:26,640 --> 02:29:30,200
Speaker 1: wealth from industry by means of sabotage production to serve

2798
02:29:30,280 --> 02:29:34,320
Speaker 1: human need. The basis of industry is useless to business

2799
02:29:34,400 --> 02:29:36,760
Speaker 1: unless it can be turned into a revenue stream. It

2800
02:29:36,840 --> 02:29:39,800
Speaker 1: does this by taking control of industry and as products

2801
02:29:39,800 --> 02:29:42,720
Speaker 1: and the restricting access to it particular and niches input it.

2802
02:29:43,320 --> 02:29:46,800
Speaker 1: The most important feature of private ownership is not that

2803
02:29:46,840 --> 02:29:49,800
Speaker 1: it enables those who own, but that it disables those

2804
02:29:49,840 --> 02:29:53,760
Speaker 1: who do not. Technically, anyone can get in someone else's

2805
02:29:53,800 --> 02:29:56,240
Speaker 1: car and drive away, but give in order to sell

2806
02:29:56,280 --> 02:30:00,480
Speaker 1: all of Warren Buffet shares in Berkshire hathaway. The purpose

2807
02:30:00,560 --> 02:30:04,480
Speaker 1: of private ownership is wholly and only an institution of exclusion.

2808
02:30:05,200 --> 02:30:09,760
Speaker 1: An institutional exclusion is a matter of organized power. As

2809
02:30:09,800 --> 02:30:12,240
Speaker 1: we can see from the genocide on the Plans. This

2810
02:30:12,400 --> 02:30:15,360
Speaker 1: power is no abstract force. Beblin tends to focus on

2811
02:30:15,400 --> 02:30:18,640
Speaker 1: the power of absentee owners to stop production, and for

2812
02:30:18,720 --> 02:30:21,800
Speaker 1: good reason, but business stands in the way of industry

2813
02:30:22,280 --> 02:30:25,560
Speaker 1: in more immediate ways too. After all, the purpose of

2814
02:30:25,600 --> 02:30:28,800
Speaker 1: cooperative industry is to make goods to improve our lives.

2815
02:30:29,120 --> 02:30:32,160
Speaker 1: And yet in between us and the proceeds that industry

2816
02:30:32,240 --> 02:30:35,480
Speaker 1: creates to slerve our needs, there is a cash register

2817
02:30:35,560 --> 02:30:39,320
Speaker 1: in a cop Even the creators of a Louis Vuitton bag,

2818
02:30:39,760 --> 02:30:43,320
Speaker 1: or for that matter, a tomato, have no claim on

2819
02:30:43,360 --> 02:30:46,120
Speaker 1: it once business takes over, and business would rather destroy

2820
02:30:46,160 --> 02:30:48,680
Speaker 1: it than see it fall into their hands. The famous

2821
02:30:48,720 --> 02:30:52,840
Speaker 1: Russian anarchist theorist Peter Kirpopkin was writing along similar lines

2822
02:30:52,879 --> 02:30:55,920
Speaker 1: to Feblyn just a few years before Feblen, it seems,

2823
02:30:55,920 --> 02:30:58,680
Speaker 1: have been exposed to anarchist ideas through its association with

2824
02:30:58,760 --> 02:31:02,400
Speaker 1: the industrial workers of the world. In early nineteen hundreds,

2825
02:31:02,400 --> 02:31:05,240
Speaker 1: it was not altogether unusual for economists to move in

2826
02:31:05,360 --> 02:31:10,040
Speaker 1: radical circles. The great Italian economist Piero's Raffles smuggled pens

2827
02:31:10,080 --> 02:31:13,240
Speaker 1: and papers to Antonio Gramsey, while Grumsey the head of

2828
02:31:13,240 --> 02:31:16,760
Speaker 1: the Italian Communist Party, was a prisoner with the Italian

2829
02:31:16,800 --> 02:31:21,720
Speaker 1: fascist regime. Grapha would later extract the writings that Crumpsy

2830
02:31:21,800 --> 02:31:26,360
Speaker 1: had written in prison, unleashing Grumsey's prison notebooks onto the world.

2831
02:31:26,520 --> 02:31:28,960
Speaker 1: But Feblin was unique even among these economists for the

2832
02:31:29,000 --> 02:31:32,080
Speaker 1: extent that he incorporated radical theories directly into his work.

2833
02:31:33,320 --> 02:31:37,200
Speaker 1: As you've seen, was his adoption of sabotage as a

2834
02:31:37,240 --> 02:31:40,160
Speaker 1: way of thinking about capitalism. This led Veblin to call

2835
02:31:40,480 --> 02:31:42,640
Speaker 1: the end of the system of what he described as

2836
02:31:42,720 --> 02:31:48,360
Speaker 1: vested interests and absentee owners. Febulin solution, however, which he

2837
02:31:48,440 --> 02:31:52,000
Speaker 1: described as a quote Soviet if technicians that would manage

2838
02:31:52,040 --> 02:31:55,600
Speaker 1: production for all society, leaves a lot to be desired for.

2839
02:31:56,360 --> 02:31:59,400
Speaker 1: So let us return to the source Perscrapotkin and the

2840
02:31:59,400 --> 02:32:03,760
Speaker 1: Conquest of Bread. The minds, so they represent the labor

2841
02:32:03,800 --> 02:32:07,120
Speaker 1: of several generations and derive their sole value from the

2842
02:32:07,200 --> 02:32:10,840
Speaker 1: requirements of the industry of a nation and the density

2843
02:32:10,879 --> 02:32:15,040
Speaker 1: of the population. The minds also belonged to the few,

2844
02:32:15,680 --> 02:32:18,200
Speaker 1: and these few restrict the output of coal are prevented

2845
02:32:18,360 --> 02:32:21,920
Speaker 1: entirely if they find more profitable investments for their capital.

2846
02:32:22,520 --> 02:32:25,640
Speaker 1: Machinery too, has become the exclusive property of the few.

2847
02:32:26,280 --> 02:32:32,240
Speaker 1: And even when a machine incontestedly represents an improvements added

2848
02:32:32,280 --> 02:32:36,120
Speaker 1: to the original rough invention by three or four generations

2849
02:32:36,120 --> 02:32:40,080
Speaker 1: of workers, it nonetheless belongs to a few honors. And

2850
02:32:40,120 --> 02:32:43,480
Speaker 1: if the descendants of the very inventor who constructed the

2851
02:32:43,520 --> 02:32:47,000
Speaker 1: first machine for lace building a century ago were to

2852
02:32:47,080 --> 02:32:49,920
Speaker 1: present themselves today at a lace factory and bail or

2853
02:32:49,920 --> 02:32:54,520
Speaker 1: Nottingham and demand their rights, they would be told hands off,

2854
02:32:54,520 --> 02:32:56,760
Speaker 1: this machine is not yours, and they would be shot

2855
02:32:56,760 --> 02:33:00,240
Speaker 1: down if they attempted to take possession of it. Here

2856
02:33:00,280 --> 02:33:03,400
Speaker 1: we see the competition between two different kinds of rights.

2857
02:33:03,480 --> 02:33:05,959
Speaker 1: On the one hand, the right of industry, the right

2858
02:33:06,000 --> 02:33:10,080
Speaker 1: of creativity, the right of those who produce and care

2859
02:33:10,160 --> 02:33:13,720
Speaker 1: for each other to be able to determine where are

2860
02:33:13,760 --> 02:33:16,920
Speaker 1: the proceeds of their labor go. From industry's point of view,

2861
02:33:17,360 --> 02:33:20,760
Speaker 1: this is to each other, to those in need, into

2862
02:33:20,760 --> 02:33:23,760
Speaker 1: society as a whole. On the other hand, there is

2863
02:33:23,800 --> 02:33:26,080
Speaker 1: the right of property, the right of men with guns

2864
02:33:26,080 --> 02:33:28,840
Speaker 1: to throw oysters into the ocean because it's not profitable

2865
02:33:28,879 --> 02:33:32,039
Speaker 1: for anyone to eat them. Capitalism has developed a myriad

2866
02:33:32,080 --> 02:33:36,039
Speaker 1: of iterations precisely the same principle, and the world is

2867
02:33:36,040 --> 02:33:40,640
Speaker 1: now infested by them. Patent trolls haunt They already fraught

2868
02:33:40,640 --> 02:33:44,680
Speaker 1: waters of intellectual property, buying up patents for cheap or

2869
02:33:44,680 --> 02:33:48,280
Speaker 1: on rare occasions, creating something themselves for the sole purpose,

2870
02:33:49,200 --> 02:33:51,959
Speaker 1: or preventing anyone else from using it, making money by

2871
02:33:51,959 --> 02:33:54,960
Speaker 1: suing anyone who dares try. Large corporations, of course, to

2872
02:33:55,120 --> 02:33:58,920
Speaker 1: precisely the same thing, see for example Disney's War and

2873
02:33:58,959 --> 02:34:02,640
Speaker 1: the concept of an anything, anything at all, falling into

2874
02:34:02,640 --> 02:34:06,520
Speaker 1: the public domain. The sabotage, and on this all four

2875
02:34:06,560 --> 02:34:12,119
Speaker 1: of our interlocutors, Veblin, Kropotkin clear needs a degree as

2876
02:34:12,160 --> 02:34:15,880
Speaker 1: long as private ownership exists, because sabotage is all private

2877
02:34:15,879 --> 02:34:19,560
Speaker 1: ownership really is. But it is not simply enough to

2878
02:34:19,600 --> 02:34:23,680
Speaker 1: answer corporate sabotage with their own sabotage. As Veblin pointed out,

2879
02:34:24,000 --> 02:34:27,480
Speaker 1: this is simply the ordinary state of affairs, enter capitalism.

2880
02:34:27,560 --> 02:34:32,039
Speaker 1: For Capotkin, the answer was simple. This rich endowments, painfully

2881
02:34:32,080 --> 02:34:36,880
Speaker 1: one builded, fashioned, or invented by our ancestors, must become

2882
02:34:36,920 --> 02:34:39,560
Speaker 1: common property, so that the collective interests of men may

2883
02:34:39,600 --> 02:34:42,920
Speaker 1: gain forbid the greatest good for all. There must be

2884
02:34:42,959 --> 02:34:47,560
Speaker 1: appropriation the well being of all the end expropriation. The

2885
02:34:47,680 --> 02:34:50,920
Speaker 1: means how precisely to go about doing such a thing

2886
02:34:50,959 --> 02:34:52,920
Speaker 1: as been the subject of endless debate for nearly two

2887
02:34:53,040 --> 02:34:56,600
Speaker 1: hundred years. And I am not arrogant enough to propose

2888
02:34:56,640 --> 02:34:59,440
Speaker 1: to solve the problem here, But a system where a

2889
02:34:59,480 --> 02:35:02,720
Speaker 1: company and prevent even the US government from attempting to

2890
02:35:02,720 --> 02:35:06,360
Speaker 1: produce ventilators by simply buying up the company that won

2891
02:35:06,400 --> 02:35:09,760
Speaker 1: the contract and refusing to fill the order to maintain

2892
02:35:09,800 --> 02:35:12,720
Speaker 1: the value of the ventilators it was already producing. Is

2893
02:35:12,760 --> 02:35:15,560
Speaker 1: a system based on nothing less than ensuring that people

2894
02:35:15,560 --> 02:35:19,200
Speaker 1: will die for or five percent rate of return. If

2895
02:35:19,200 --> 02:35:22,320
Speaker 1: we are to have any hope of stopping the ravages

2896
02:35:22,480 --> 02:35:26,480
Speaker 1: that climate change promises for our future, we cannot afford

2897
02:35:26,520 --> 02:35:33,600
Speaker 1: to be sabotaged at every step. Hey, we'll be back

2898
02:35:33,640 --> 02:35:36,879
Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the

2899
02:35:36,879 --> 02:35:39,880
Speaker 1: heat death of the universe. It could happen. Here is

2900
02:35:39,920 --> 02:35:42,640
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from

2901
02:35:42,640 --> 02:35:45,600
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,

2902
02:35:45,720 --> 02:35:47,440
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart radio app,

2903
02:35:47,480 --> 02:35:50,840
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

2904
02:35:50,840 --> 02:35:53,560
Speaker 1: find sources for it could happen here, updated monthly at

2905
02:35:53,560 --> 02:35:56,840
Speaker 1: cool Zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

2906
02:35:57,480 --> 02:36:00,800
Speaker 1: Conquer your New Year's resolutions with the Before This Podcast.

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2938
02:37:33,400 --> 02:37:36,360
Speaker 1: earn enough money to one day tell your old bus hey,

2939
02:37:36,480 --> 02:37:42,000
Speaker 1: I'm no settler, I'm an explorer. Spreaker dot com, spr

2940
02:37:42,240 --> 02:37:45,600
Speaker 1: e a K E R Hustle on over Today