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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast. Robert

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Speaker 1: Wagoner back with us. He was last with me four

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Speaker 1: years ago and we were talking about his work. Lucid dreaming,

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Speaker 1: plain and simple and lucid dreaming gave way to the

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Speaker 1: inner self. He taught himself a very simple method to

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Speaker 1: become lucid or consciously aware of the dream state, back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five and six years before the scientific

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Speaker 1: evidence for lucid dreaming emerged. That's pretty good. And during

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Speaker 1: the next forty plus years he explored lucid dreaming, discovered

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Speaker 1: a way to directly connect with a knowledgeable and creative

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Speaker 1: inner awareness. And besides his to acclaim books on lucid dreaming,

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Speaker 1: he co edits online magazines. And here he is back

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Speaker 1: on Coast to Coast. Robert. You are away too long, Georgia.

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Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me you too,

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Speaker 1: have you been great? Great? Thanks? How are the dreams?

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Speaker 1: You know, dreams take us deep and different places so

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Speaker 1: that they're always fascinating. They really are. And you know

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Speaker 1: the old adage that everybody dreams all the time. You

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Speaker 1: just don't remember them. Is that true? It really is true.

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Speaker 1: Every night we spend about twenty three percent of the

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Speaker 1: sleep time in the dream state. And when you start

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Speaker 1: to do the numbers, you realize that if that's the case,

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Speaker 1: after eleven years of living, you've spent one entire year

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Speaker 1: in the dream state. But I'll tell you a lot

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Speaker 1: of us who are in our forties and we've spent

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Speaker 1: four years in the dream state and we still don't

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Speaker 1: understand it very well. So it's amazing that we spend

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Speaker 1: that much time in dreaming but really don't understand it.

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Speaker 1: There are different kinds of dreams, of course, precognitive dreams,

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Speaker 1: regular dreams, nightmare dreams and stuff. And then of course

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Speaker 1: lucid dreaming. What is it that makes lucid dreaming different

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Speaker 1: from the other kinds. Yeah, so a lucid dream is

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Speaker 1: any dream in which you realize within the dream that

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Speaker 1: you're dreaming. You know this is a dream. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you might even announce in the dream, hey, this is

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Speaker 1: a dream. This is too weird, this must be a dream.

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Speaker 1: And so a lucid dream means that you realize you

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Speaker 1: know you're dreaming, and therefore you can begin to act

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Speaker 1: as you want. You can direct the dream to some degree.

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Speaker 1: You can direct your actions within the dream. Do you

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Speaker 1: say something like, oh, this is a dream. I know

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Speaker 1: it's a dream. I can't get hurt. I can jump

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Speaker 1: off this building. Watch do they do stuff like that? Exactly?

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Speaker 1: Once you realize it's a dream, you can fly through space,

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Speaker 1: you can go through walls, you can walk on water,

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Speaker 1: you can do magic like Harry Potter. You can do

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Speaker 1: some amazing things. But there's also some really deep and

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Speaker 1: profound things that you can do as well. Just my

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Speaker 1: luck for someone to jump off a building and then

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Speaker 1: say it's not a dream. You made a mistake, you know.

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Speaker 1: For lucid dreamers, we have something we call the reality check.

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Speaker 1: And so if you're ever wondering, wait a second, this

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Speaker 1: seems really real. Is this a dream or is this

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Speaker 1: waking reality? So lucid dreamers perform a reality check. For example,

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Speaker 1: I might look at my left hand and grab my

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Speaker 1: index finger and start pulling it, and if my index

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Speaker 1: finger starts growing and growing and growing, then I know, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is a dream. This would only happen in the

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Speaker 1: dreaming exactly, And so that's how you do a reality check,

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Speaker 1: just to be sure that you are. That'sbert why do

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Speaker 1: we lucid dream in the first place. What's what's the

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Speaker 1: benefit of doing that? You know? I think there's really

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Speaker 1: about five benefits of lucid dreaming. The first one is

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Speaker 1: you get to have so much fun, but you can

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Speaker 1: also access creativity. You can connect with that unconscious mind,

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Speaker 1: the unconscious creativity, and you can call forth solutions to

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Speaker 1: problems um creative things that you want to produce or playing.

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Speaker 1: So that'd be the first one. The second one is

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Speaker 1: you can use lucid dreaming for psychological insight and also

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Speaker 1: for emotional healing. A lot of people need to get

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Speaker 1: in touch with their emotions and have healing occur, and

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Speaker 1: so lucid dreaming allows for that. Then you can use

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Speaker 1: it for physical healing. There's some extraordinary stories of people

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Speaker 1: who have become lucidly aware and then focused on healing

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Speaker 1: their body. And finally, you can use it to enhance

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Speaker 1: your waking life skills, whatever this might be. And you

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Speaker 1: can also use it for spiritual growth, for seeking out wisdom,

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Speaker 1: exploring time and space. So those are some of the

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Speaker 1: many deeper benefits of lucid dreaming. And when somebody's in

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Speaker 1: this dream and they know it. Can they also control

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Speaker 1: what they're doing? Or are they just a witness to

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Speaker 1: what's happening? Yeah, you know this is a little bit complex.

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Speaker 1: The metaphor that I use is the sailor does not

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Speaker 1: control the sea. Neither does the lucid dream or control

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Speaker 1: the dream. And so when you become lucidly aware, you

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Speaker 1: can decide what you want to do, and you can

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Speaker 1: influence things, but it doesn't always go according to plan.

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Speaker 1: And so sometimes you realize that the unconscious is trying

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Speaker 1: to draw your attention to something, are bringing in an

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Speaker 1: unexpected feature that you did not expect. And when you

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Speaker 1: see that, didn't you realize that to say control is

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Speaker 1: just too big a word. You can influence, you can

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Speaker 1: manipulate the control. That might be a little bit too much. Robert,

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Speaker 1: Where did dreams originate? Do they come from? You know,

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Speaker 1: the subconscious mind or the brain, the physical brain? Boy,

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Speaker 1: that's a deep philosophical question, scientific one that people are

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Speaker 1: still playing with. But it's the fact that every night

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Speaker 1: we spend about two hours two and a half hours

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Speaker 1: in the dream state, and also all mammals dream. And

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Speaker 1: that's another curious thing. Well, why is dreaming so important.

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Speaker 1: Way back in decades ago, they did studies where they

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Speaker 1: stopped mice from dreaming that allow them to eat, that

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Speaker 1: allow them to sleep, but every time they started a dream,

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Speaker 1: that wake him up. And within a week or so,

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Speaker 1: I believe the mice in this laboratory experiment passed away. Wow,

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Speaker 1: somehow very important to your health. But we still don't

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Speaker 1: know exactly why we dream to begin with. I know

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Speaker 1: you used to have some Labrador retrievers and when they

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Speaker 1: were sleeping, you could tell they were dreaming because you know,

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Speaker 1: they would just make these funny little noises, and you mean,

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Speaker 1: you just knew that they were dreaming of something. So

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Speaker 1: I assume animals dream too. Then, yes, animals dream too.

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Speaker 1: And the wonderful thing about some of the neurological research

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Speaker 1: is that they're starting to almost be able to focus

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Speaker 1: on the brain cells they get activated in certain types

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Speaker 1: of dreams. So, for example, if they teach a rat

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Speaker 1: how they go through a maze to get to the food,

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Speaker 1: then they can follow its brain activity at night and

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Speaker 1: see that the rat is actually considering that same idea

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Speaker 1: in its actual dream. And so when you see your

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Speaker 1: labrador move its pause or whatever, that then you realize

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Speaker 1: that sometimes they're having dreams about actual movements that they've

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Speaker 1: done and things that they want to do. Robert has

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Speaker 1: science jumped in on this shot. You know. The wonderful

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Speaker 1: thing is lucid dreaming has been scientifically validated through the

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Speaker 1: wonderful work of Stephen Leberge who was at Stanford. And

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Speaker 1: this is how he did it. George he he himself

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Speaker 1: was a lucid dreamer, but he wondered, how could you

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Speaker 1: get scientific evidence? And then he realized that within the

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Speaker 1: dream state we have rapid eye movement, so our eyes

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Speaker 1: move around. He wondered, could you bring a lucid dreamer

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Speaker 1: into the sleep lab and tell him when you become

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Speaker 1: consciously aware that you're in a dream, I want you

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Speaker 1: to look left and right eight times and maybe that'll

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Speaker 1: move your physical eyes and that will show evidence that

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Speaker 1: you're consciously aware in the dream. And so, using himself

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Speaker 1: as the research subject, he went to the sleep lab

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Speaker 1: and did that and published the results in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, and that that ushered in the scientific

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Speaker 1: era of lucid dreaming. But before then, lucid dreaming had

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Speaker 1: been discussed in Buddhism, as dream yoga for about two

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Speaker 1: thousand years, in Sufism for about a thousand years, in

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Speaker 1: shamanic traditions for many many millennium So it's a wonderful

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Speaker 1: thing to have lucid dreaming be scientifically validated because it

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Speaker 1: has a long history as an ancient spiritual practice. It's

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Speaker 1: not astral projection, though, is it now? No, it's it

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Speaker 1: really isn't. And so so I'll just kind of go

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Speaker 1: through the differences between what people call obe are out

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Speaker 1: of bodies or has to travel versus lucid dreams. So

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Speaker 1: in a lucid dream, you realize, wait a second, this

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Speaker 1: is too weird, this must be a dream. But normally

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Speaker 1: an out of body when you read about the experiences,

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Speaker 1: the person has a traumatic accident or a heart attack

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Speaker 1: and they're floating up in the in the hospital operating room,

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Speaker 1: or they might begin to hear all this humming and

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Speaker 1: buzzing as they're trying to fall asleep and and and

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So people who are having out

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Speaker 1: of bodies they report that kind of buzzing and energetic noise.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they say that they roll out of their body

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Speaker 1: or they shoot out of their body. But again a

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Speaker 1: lucid dreamer, they're just realizing within the dreams that they're dreaming.

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Speaker 1: I remember Robert Monroe, kind of the father of natural projection,

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Speaker 1: he said that he's not the big difference with us

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Speaker 1: that in the Lucid's dreams people are constantly changing the environment.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can use your beliefs and expectations your

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Speaker 1: mind to change environment around you, he says, whereas a

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Speaker 1: person and then out of body experience, they just accept

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Speaker 1: the environment. It's a very stable environment. And finally, the

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Speaker 1: final point would be a lot of people who have

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Speaker 1: out of body experiences are asked to travel, they report

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Speaker 1: coming back to the body and oftentimes with a big

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Speaker 1: stud and they kind of when they finally reconnect. But

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Speaker 1: lucid dreamers, they normally realized the dreams coming to an

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Speaker 1: end and then they just wake up in bed. So

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Speaker 1: those are those are the differences that they're similar in

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Speaker 1: summer guards but but in many respects are two different,

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Speaker 1: two different things. What is it that got you involved

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Speaker 1: in lucid dreaming to study? Yeah, you know, when I

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Speaker 1: was a young kid, I just had a fascination with dreams.

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Speaker 1: I'casonally have precognitive dreams that just blew my mind. But

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Speaker 1: it was back in nineteen seventy five, I was reading

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Speaker 1: a book by Carlos Constanta where he talked about his

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Speaker 1: Shamanic teachers suggested that he find his hands in the

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Speaker 1: dream state and realize he's dreaming, And I thought, could

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Speaker 1: a person really do that? And so there wasn't really

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Speaker 1: a technique, So I just made up my own, using

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Speaker 1: the power of suggestion. Each night, before i'd go to sleep,

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Speaker 1: I just looked at the palm of my hands while

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Speaker 1: telling myself, tonight, my dreams, I'll see my hands and

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Speaker 1: realize I'm dreaming. Tonight, my dreams. I'll see my hands

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Speaker 1: and realize I'm dreaming. And I do that for about

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Speaker 1: five minutes and fall asleep. So what happened on the

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Speaker 1: third night of doing this practice. I'm walking through my

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Speaker 1: high school hallway and all of a sudden, my hands

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Speaker 1: just popped right in front of my face, and I realized, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is a dream. And so this is the way

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Speaker 1: that I taught myself back in nineteen seventy five, about

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Speaker 1: six years before the scientific evidence emerge, how you could

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Speaker 1: become lucidly aware in the dream state. But I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you I had an incredible lucid dream and it just

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Speaker 1: totally blew my mind. And after that, I was hooked

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Speaker 1: on lucid dreaming. PTSD poster extress disorder nightmares. How does

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Speaker 1: lucid dreaming help that? Yeah, one of the primary symptoms

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Speaker 1: of PTSD is recurring nightmares. Every night, the person dreams

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Speaker 1: about that horrible incident or a dream representation of it,

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Speaker 1: and they wake up and can hardly fall back asleep.

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Speaker 1: I mean, some of the people don't even want to

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Speaker 1: sleep because they don't want to have those nightmares again.

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Speaker 1: So it happened back in nineteen eighty two. There is

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Speaker 1: a psychotherapist in Ohio, Gordon Halliday, and he himself, I believe,

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Speaker 1: was a lucid dreamer, and so he instructed his PTSD clients.

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Speaker 1: He said, look, you're going to have that same recurring

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Speaker 1: nightmare again. So at some point in it, I want

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Speaker 1: you to realize, hey, this is that recurring nightmare and

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Speaker 1: become elucidly aware. And he said, as soon as you

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Speaker 1: do that, then just change one thing in that nightmare.

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Speaker 1: Just change one thing. You know it's a dream, just

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Speaker 1: change one thing. And so both of his clients they

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Speaker 1: became elusively aware. They changed one thing, and the most

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Speaker 1: incredible thing is then the recurring nightmares stopped. They just

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Speaker 1: came to an end, and the people were so glad

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Speaker 1: to be able to get a decent night sleep and

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Speaker 1: at least have that aspect of PTSD go away. Of

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Speaker 1: all the dreams that are out there, the precognitive and

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Speaker 1: things like that, Yeah, how many different dreams are there?

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Speaker 1: Can we categorize them? Wow? There's all kinds of dreams.

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Speaker 1: There's visitation dreams from the disease. There's dreams of being

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Speaker 1: in other times and places, and there are so many

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Speaker 1: types of dreaming. That's one of the fun things that

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Speaker 1: I get to do is every year I get to

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Speaker 1: go to the International Association for the Study of Dreams.

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Speaker 1: They have a conference this year here in a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks. It's going to be in the Netherlands, and

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Speaker 1: the wonderful things. Then you have all sorts of interesting

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Speaker 1: people come and share either they're scientific work on dreaming

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Speaker 1: and lucid dreaming or sometimes their historical work on dreams

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Speaker 1: and lucid dreams, and as well as their own personal experiences.

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Speaker 1: That there's all types of dreaming. And here's some that

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Speaker 1: they have out there. In terms of some of the dreams,

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Speaker 1: there's obviously what we just talked about, lucid dreams. There's

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Speaker 1: day dreaming, nightmares, recurring dreams, healing dreams. Will talk about that,

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Speaker 1: prophetic dreams, that's precognitive. I think signal dreams, that's when

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Speaker 1: they solve problems for you. And then epic dreams or

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Speaker 1: what they would call huge great dreams. I've never heard

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Speaker 1: of that one before, have you? You know what I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people would call those big dreams.

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Speaker 1: That was the term that Carl Young used. There's big

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Speaker 1: dreams that kind of change their lives and send us

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Speaker 1: on a different pathway. So, of all the dreams, of

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Speaker 1: all of them that we just heard, which one would

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Speaker 1: you rather have? Boy? I would much rather have a

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Speaker 1: lucid dream because when you're lucively aware, you can decide

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Speaker 1: what you want to do, and if you know how

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Speaker 1: to do it, you can explore the mind that very

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Speaker 1: deeply explore time and space. You can physically heal, emotionally

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Speaker 1: heal yourself, you can access creativity. Lucid dreaming, I feel

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Speaker 1: beats almost all these other kind of dreams hands down.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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