1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to do something really big and substantial to 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: force it a reckoning. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 2: She's the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who set the country 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: on fire with a project that dared to reframe history. 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: You know that this one project was considered so dangerous 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: that had to create an entire build or try to 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: rescue American history from this single work of journalism. 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 2: Nicole Hannah Jones created the groundbreaking New York Times Magazine 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: sixteen nineteen project and stood her ground when those in 10 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 2: power tried to tear it down. 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 3: Wow, I'm sitting here with chills throughout my body. 12 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 4: It's easy to have values that you don't have to 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 4: live them. 14 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 2: Join hosts Martin Luther King the Third, Andrea Waters, King, 15 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: Mark Kilberger, and Craig Kilberger for an uncompromising conversation about hope, 16 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 2: democracy and raising the next generation to know their work. 17 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: I just remember going fifteen years of my life healing 18 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: in a quit in inferior as a black girl. 19 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 4: What I know for fact because my daughter has never. 20 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 5: Felt welcome to my legacy. Today's guest, Nicole Hannah Jones, 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 5: is one of the most influential journalists of our time, 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 5: and it's changed how this country tells its history. Nicole, 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,279 Speaker 5: we are so honored to have you with us here today, 24 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 5: and of course, in the true fashion of my legacy, 25 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 5: we always meet the person who knows you best. Would 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 5: you mind introducing us to your plus one today? 27 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you so much for having me. Nice to 28 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: meet you all. And my plus one is my husband, 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: Frigi Hannah Jones, and we have been married for how 30 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: long twenty three years? 31 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 5: So thrilled to have you with us here today and 32 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 5: can't wait to get to know both of you better. 33 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 5: But Nicole, if we could start with you, we'd love 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 5: to understand this incredible journey that you've had on him, 35 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 5: and to take us a little bit back to the origin, 36 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 5: because there's got to be a deep, rich part of 37 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 5: this origin story of why he became so passionate, Maybe 38 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 5: a memory from your childhood or your student days that 39 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 5: set you on this incredible life trajectory. 40 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: I grew up in a house of avid readers. My 41 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: mom was always very involved in social justice, and so 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: I always had a strong sense of writing and wrong, 43 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: of fairness and of wanting to root for the underdog. 44 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: When I was eleven years old, I read the newspaper 45 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: every day with my dad. When I was eleven years old, 46 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: I wrote my first letter to the editor to our 47 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: local paper. It was about Jesse Jackson's historic run to 48 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: become the first black president in nineteen eighty eight, and 49 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: he didn't do very well. I'm from Iowa and so 50 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: we had the first in the nation primary and he 51 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: didn't do very well. And I felt he was a 52 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: great candidate, and one of the reasons he didn't do 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: well was because he was a black man. So at 54 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: eleven years old, I wrote a letter to the editor 55 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: about that, and every day I would go home and 56 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: look at the paper and open to the opinion section, 57 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: and then one day they printed my letter, and I 58 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: just remember, even as a middle school student, feeling so 59 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: empowered by seeing my name in print and knowing that 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: I could see something in the world that I didn't 61 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: think was fair, and I could write about it and 62 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: I could make people pay attention to it. So I 63 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: think that's when I started to think about maybe writing 64 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: or journalism as something I might want to pursue. Of course, 65 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: I didn't know any journalists back then, and I wasn't 66 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: sure what I might want to do. But I think 67 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: that's where the first kind of kernel of an idea 68 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: that this might be a career for me began. 69 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 5: I love it from the early days of activism. 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 6: Farajie, you know we all love a good love story. 71 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 6: Can you share how you first met Nicole? 72 00:03:57,760 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 7: Did you see? 73 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 3: I wish the viewers could see how you When Martin 74 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: asked that question, You're you just lit up. 75 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 8: So I will say both of us met actually online, uh, 76 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:17,239 Speaker 8: sometime in nineteen ninety nine on a program called AOL 77 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 8: instant Messenger that no longer exists, that no longer exists. Well, basically, 78 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 8: it was my name that pretty much attracted the inquiry 79 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 8: of Nicole. And so she popped up on my screen 80 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 8: one day, and of course we're all, you know, these 81 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 8: are the early days of the internet. And she pops 82 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 8: up on my screen and she says hello, and I'm like, 83 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 8: who is this? And the conversation started with you know, 84 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 8: I love your name. Then, of course, at the time 85 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 8: I was living in Atlanta, Uh, And of course our 86 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 8: conversation progressed more into what we like to do, what 87 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 8: we see ourselves doing, those types of things. 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: Uh. 89 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 8: And then of course the phone call. We had a 90 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 8: phone call, and of course I loved the sound of 91 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 8: her voice, and she loved mine, and I hope she 92 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 8: still loves mama. 93 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 7: I was gonna ask you, do you still love the 94 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 7: sound of it. 95 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 8: I was immediately very attracted to Nicole, and so at 96 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 8: the time she said, I love Atlanta, I'm moving there. 97 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 4: She moved to Atlanta. She actually arrived. 98 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 8: We met each other November first, nineteen ninety nine, and 99 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 8: I was going to pick her up. And I think 100 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 8: the agreement we had was she doesn't like what she sees, 101 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 8: she will walk back into her apartment. If I don't 102 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 8: like what I see, I'll drive away. And it was 103 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 8: raining that day. 104 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 7: Wait wait, wait, so take So this is nineteen ninety nine. 105 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 4: There's no social media. There's no way for you to 106 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 4: see someone. 107 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: So I think I like snuck into work late at 108 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: night and scanned used my office scanner and I scanned 109 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: a photo of myself and then he mailed in the 110 00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: mailto kissed out. But I was always so scared, Like 111 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: you know, photos don't actually represent what the person really 112 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: looks like sometimes, so that's why I was like, Okay, 113 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: when when it's time for us to meet, I'm going 114 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: to stand outside and you just drive by or slow 115 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: and if. 116 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 4: We don't you look at me, I'll look at you. 117 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: And if we don't like how each other looks, we'll 118 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 1: just I'll go back in the house, or you keep driving, 119 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: and no harm, no foul. So that it was actually 120 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: it was downpouring rain that was standing outside with the umbrella. 121 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: He drove by slowly, and I guess we both like 122 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: what we saw. 123 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 4: What I got in the. 124 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 8: Car, drove buying my key, my key, Yeah. 125 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 7: Mark, you see Martin's face. He's nervous already. 126 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: There may or may not have been a time when 127 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 3: he had talked to someone on the phone and they 128 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: were driving past, but he kept he kept driving. 129 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 4: So you understand my strategy. 130 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 9: Now that millions of people are listening, What do you 131 00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 9: have to say about this? 132 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 6: Sometimes you had to keep driving, and I'm so glad 133 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 6: I did. 134 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: Oh good landed you landed on a table. 135 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 7: Nicole. 136 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: You are a young journalist when the two of you 137 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 3: all met, And now we'll fast forward fifteen years and 138 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 3: you create this truly truly incredible ground shifting issue of 139 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: The New York Times magazine, the sixteen nineteen project And 140 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: for those that don't know, the project reframed American history 141 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: by centering the legacy of slavery and the contributions of 142 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 3: black Americans into the narrative of the country. So I 143 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 3: am so curious as how did the idea take shape 144 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 3: and what did it take to bring this vision that 145 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: you had to life. 146 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 7: So I. 147 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: Have been obsessed with the year sixteen nineteen since I 148 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: was fifteen years old. So I had been busted into 149 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: white schools starting in the second grade, and so I 150 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: was part of a small black population at my high 151 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: school that was busted as part of a school desegregation program. 152 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: And so they offered this one semester Black studies course 153 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: with a teacher named mister Ray Dow, the only black 154 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: men I ever had as an educator, and it transformed 155 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: my life. Suddenly I was exposed to all of these 156 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: books written by black people, all of these books about 157 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: black history. I didn't really realize there was so much 158 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: history that could be taught. 159 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 4: I mean, of course. 160 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: I knew about your father, mister King, but as you 161 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: also know, maybe five black people was I ever really 162 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: taught about during Black History Month? And so I take 163 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: this course, and all of a sudden I realized that 164 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: the history that we had been taught was not even 165 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: close to all of the history that could be taught, 166 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: and that people had really intentionally decided that they were 167 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: going to erase most of the contributions of black people, 168 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: not just in America but in the world. And so 169 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: would ask mister Dill to give me books to read 170 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: on my own, and one of the books he gave 171 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,479 Speaker 1: me was Laurn Bennis Before the Mayflower. 172 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 4: So that was like a really transformative moment. 173 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: For me, as a fifteen year old girl, to realize 174 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: that the history of black people in this land went 175 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: back even before the Pilgrims and the Mayflower, and understanding 176 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: that every American child learns about the Mayflower, but no 177 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: one thought it was important to teach us about another 178 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: ship that arrived a year earlier, called the White Lion. 179 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: So Frodi will tell you, as long as he's known me, 180 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: I've always talked about sixteen nineteen, and I used to 181 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: kind of jokingly say my journalism was getting longer and 182 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 1: longer and longer everything I wrote because I kept trying 183 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: to go further and further back in the past until 184 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: we got to the start of it, which was sixteen nineteen. 185 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: So as the four hundredth anniversary of that date was 186 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: approaching in late twenty eighteen. I just was thinking, this 187 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: most momentous date, that so many Americans still didn't know 188 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: the anniversary was coming up. And I'm at the New 189 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: York Times. I'm not a little girl in Waterloo, Iowa anymore. 190 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: I have the greatest journalism platform in the world. So 191 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to do something really big and substantial to 192 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: force it a reckoning with that date and that the 193 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: institution of slavery is older than the country itself here, 194 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: and that there's few institutions in what would become the 195 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: United States that pre date us deciding to engage in 196 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: African slavery. So that's when I came up with the 197 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: idea to pitch a project that would take over the 198 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: entire issue of the New York Times magazine. And I 199 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: really didn't want it to be about the past, because 200 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: the thing that I believe strongly is that past and 201 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: our unwillingness to grapple with it honestly has shaped this 202 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: country in so many profound ways that we don't acknowledge. 203 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 4: So I didn't want to talk just about the things 204 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 4: that we know that slavery shaped. 205 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about all of these areas of 206 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: American life that have been shaped by this legacy that 207 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: we don't know. 208 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 4: So that was really the idea. 209 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: But it is something in some way that I have 210 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: been working towards my entire adult life. That's why I 211 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: majored in history and African American studies in college. It's 212 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: why I wanted to be a journalist who didn't just 213 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: write about the present, but who always wove history into 214 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: all of my works. 215 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: Wow, I'm sitting here with particularly as a black woman, 216 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 3: with chills throughout my body, and it's so amazing because 217 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: over these leading up to this interview, every woman that 218 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 3: I've told, every single black lady that I have said, 219 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 3: guess who we're having on the show, they all unequivocally 220 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 3: fangirled out. I just hope that you know and understand 221 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 3: what you are to our community and how loved you 222 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 3: are and on behalf of all of us. And we 223 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 3: have a seventeen year old girl, you all have a 224 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: fifteen year old. A sincere heartfelt from my belly. 225 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 4: Thank you, oh, thank you so much, thank you. 226 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: I remember when the first issue came out and people 227 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: were lining up in New York city around the corner 228 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: on to get their hands on this magazine, like to 229 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 3: see that that hunger and that desire, people standing in 230 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 3: line for that, and it was just truly amazing. But 231 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 3: I know that you've said before that you wrote this 232 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: for your people, for your daughter, and for yourself, and 233 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: so as a mother, what were you hoping to give 234 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: your daughter through this work. 235 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 4: I just remember. 236 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: Going fifteen years of my life feeling inadequate and inferior 237 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: as a black girl, feeling somehow that our history was shameful, 238 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 1: that the reason that they didn't include us in the 239 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: literature that we were being taught in the museums that 240 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: we went to, in the history books was because we 241 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: hadn't done anything, because surely if we had, if we 242 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: had contributed to society, we would be learning about that 243 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: it would be reflected. And so I just remember this 244 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: constant searching for identity and for some worth, and not 245 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: ever being a shame to be black, but just feeling 246 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: this kind of emptiness and not understanding, you know, how 247 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: our people were somehow different from every other people in 248 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: the world, that we hadn't contributed great things. 249 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 4: And so. 250 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: What I know for a fact is my daughter has 251 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: never felt that for a day, and that having this project, 252 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: and you know the children's book Born on the Water, 253 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: which I try to help black children understand, we too 254 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: have an origin story and it doesn't begin in a 255 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: slave ship. I dedicated that book to my daughter because 256 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: I just wanted her to never have to go up 257 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: with that sense of inadequacy, that searching for her worth. 258 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: And I know the beauty of what my husband and 259 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: I have been able to provide for her, and like 260 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: the legacy of this book is, she knows that. In 261 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: some ways, I think we do this as parents all 262 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: the time. Is what we struggled with, what we felt 263 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: was missing. We try to make sure that our children 264 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: don't experience is that and my child never has. 265 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 7: What we did as parents. 266 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: As our daughter was growing up, as we were intentional 267 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 3: before she got to school, before she was in daycare, 268 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: to teach her about Africa, right, to teach her the 269 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 3: story of Africa, to teach her the countries, to teach 270 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: her all of just the history so that when because 271 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 3: we knew obviously that she would hear about slavery, and 272 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 3: we were intentional that that wasn't her initial understanding of 273 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: our history of black people not that we have anything 274 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 3: to be embarrassed about for slavery, but for her to understand. 275 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 3: And so I remember once when she went to the 276 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 3: Civil and Human Rights Museum here on a school trip 277 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 3: in kindergarten, and they if you go up to the museum, 278 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 3: at the top level is a room of Africa. And 279 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: so Yolanda stood in the middle of the room and 280 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 3: told all of her classmates, and she stretches her hands out, 281 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 3: we all African Americans because civilization started in Africa. 282 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 7: So she was looking at her white friends. It's like, 283 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 7: you're African too. 284 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 6: Yes, we're building something real here, one episode at a time. 285 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 6: If you want to be part of it, to subscribe, 286 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 6: it's free, it matters, and we're just getting started. 287 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 3: Now back to my legacy, Nicole. 288 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 9: So much of what you do is absolutely remarkable. But 289 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 9: perhaps one of the most interesting statistics to share with 290 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 9: our audience is by the time you conceptualized and pitched 291 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 9: the A sixteen nineteen project, the time it was published 292 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 9: was only seven months, if I'm correct, which is absolutely remarkable. Froggie, 293 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 9: this is a question for you. What was it like 294 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 9: being beside your partner, your best friend during that journey 295 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 9: seeing her come up with this concept birth, the concept 296 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 9: seeing the intensity of the emotions and seeing the final product. 297 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 9: What was that journey like for her? But what was 298 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 9: that journey like for you? 299 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 8: Well, you just used a key word, and that was birthing. 300 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 8: That's what this was like. It was like someone who 301 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 8: is conceived our second child in so many different ways, 302 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 8: you know, and going through all of the emotions of 303 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 8: a woman who is pregnant with your child. I had 304 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 8: no idea that it was going to be big as 305 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 8: it was. But generally when the cold goes through her 306 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 8: process and it feels like it's a burden on her, 307 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 8: and sometimes you know, you're catching all the you're catching 308 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 8: how moody she is. She doesn't feel like certain things, 309 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 8: and she feels you know, you know, pretty much nitpicking 310 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 8: and things at the around the house. But I mean, 311 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,479 Speaker 8: you know, in your heart it was like, oh, this 312 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 8: is gonna be good, Like this is home cooking right here. 313 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 8: I knew every time she's stressing over her projects, I 314 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 8: know how impactful it's going to be for the betterment 315 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 8: of our people. And so you learn to be much 316 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 8: more tolerant because you understand this is important work and 317 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 8: it's for the betterment of our people and our community. 318 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 5: I love because no other podcast other than having someone 319 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 5: with their partner, we get the honesty and the depth 320 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 5: and the richness of that conversation. I love it, Nicole. 321 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 6: Obviously, there was incredible love for this project, but also 322 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 6: fierce political pushback. 323 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 4: Can you take us. 324 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 6: Into that moment and what it meant to be celebrated 325 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 6: and also tragically attacked at the same time. 326 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: I knew when the project published there would be kind 327 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: of a typical conservative outrage. You know, we were trying 328 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: to unsettle this established narrative of the United States. We 329 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to be provocative saying what if 330 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: our real origin is not seventeen seventy six with these 331 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: ideas of liberty, but sixteen nineteen with the practice of slavery. 332 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: So I expected, you know, I think when it first 333 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: came out, Knu Gingrid, you know, called a trash and 334 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: things like that, and and that, you know, I was 335 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: I'm I was used to that. But then uh, some 336 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: months in it started to change, and no one was 337 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: more shocked than me that this would be something that 338 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: the President of the United States, Donald Trump, would spend 339 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,479 Speaker 1: all this time disparaging that you would see UH, sitting 340 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: senators introduce a bill against the project called the Saving 341 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: American History Act, which which actually I take great pride 342 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: in that. So you know that this one project was 343 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: considered so dangerous that you you had to create an 344 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: entire bill to try to rescue American history from this 345 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: single work of journalism. So I I I quickly realized 346 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: that this was much more powerful than you know, even 347 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: I could have hoped that you can measure the impact 348 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: by the opposition, and and. 349 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 4: That I actually have amazing enemies. 350 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: Because if these folks are mad at at my work, 351 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: then then I've done the right thing. And I won't say, 352 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: you know, it's five years out now, so I have 353 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: gone through some some growth periods. 354 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 4: Uh. I didn't always respond well to it. 355 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: I this this was the most important project of my life. 356 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 4: I cared deeply about it. 357 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: I was took so much care, and to see people 358 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: so flippantly attack it, I really felt I had to 359 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: be out there defending it at all times. And I 360 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: realized now that that wasn't necessary. That uh, the project 361 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: stood on its own. 362 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 4: Now. 363 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a print reporter. I'm not I'm not a 364 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: TV reporter. I never expected people to know who I was, 365 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: or know my name, or to become some sort of symbol. 366 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: And and when you do that at and all of 367 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: a sudden, you become this symbol bulk to people who 368 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: love you, but also to people who revalue And one 369 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: of the people who reviles you is is the President 370 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: of the United States, who also was stoking violence consistently. 371 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: Then that requires an adjustment that it took me a 372 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: while to realize. You know, there was, like I call it, 373 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: like there was some cognitive cognitive dissonance because in my mind, 374 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm still like Nicole Hannah Jones that only a few 375 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: people know if you're real nerdy and you care about 376 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: school segregation, which is what I was mostly writing about before. 377 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 4: But now, all of a sudden, I was this symbolic person. 378 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: That people were looking at and scrutinizing everything I tweeted, 379 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: everything I might say somewhere, And that can be a 380 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: really challenging transition to make. 381 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: But looking back on it, I just feel, you know, 382 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 4: tremend pride. Like if Donald Trump. 383 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: Was so concerned about my work that he created an 384 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: entire presidential commission against it, I was. 385 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 4: Doing the right thing. 386 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: You know, they began to pass these divisive concept laws 387 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: across the state. You know, in Georgia, you're not supposed 388 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: to teach sixteen nineteen. There were certain school boards Cop County, 389 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: other school boards that passed policy that you can't teach 390 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: the sixty nineteen project. And then they followed it with 391 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: those anti critical race theory laws, and then the divisive 392 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: concept laws, and now the attack on DEI I contributed 393 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: to this cultural reckoning that happened in twenty twenty, and 394 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: maybe I contributed to this racial reckoning that we're having 395 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: right now in the opposite direction. 396 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 3: And I hope that you are just that you were 397 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 3: saying that, because let me just be clear that onus 398 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 3: is not on you. The awakening or reckoning that we're 399 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 3: going through in this country. 400 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 7: Which were. 401 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: Its in process, is not on you. And learning about 402 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 3: our history is about it's not about collective guilt. It's 403 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 3: about collective responsibility. 404 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And let me just be clear. 405 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: I do think they would like to blame us for 406 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: how they have responded to us trying to force a 407 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: reckoning with the reality of our country. And that's yeah, 408 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: that's their problem, that's not ours. And I believe strongly 409 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: that if they believe that the narrative and the truth 410 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: was on their side, they would just tell the truth. 411 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 6: Rogie, I have a question for you as well, and 412 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 6: it's probably challenging to quantify, but what was the most 413 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 6: surprising outcome. 414 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 8: I was particularly surprised at some of our public schools 415 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 8: that were, uh, you know, going to their school boards 416 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 8: and really looking at their historical curriculum, their history curriculum 417 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 8: and saying, look, you know, we need to we need 418 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 8: to re examine how we're teaching our kids history, particularly kids, 419 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 8: not just kids of color, but how history is being 420 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 8: taught to some of our affluent and white white kids. 421 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 4: And so you had. 422 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 8: School systems that really were looking to change their curriculum, 423 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 8: and of course that went with a lot of resistance 424 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 8: the community churches. I remember when the magazine came out, 425 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 8: it was like they did I think a brunch at Sylvia's. 426 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 8: It was just a women coming together, you know, talking 427 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 8: about the project. I mean, I never seen anything like it. 428 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 8: You're looking at an institution that is literally dying, you know, 429 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 8: the print industry is dying, and you saw don't say that, 430 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 8: but you've seen for the first time people like literally 431 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 8: going out buying a newspaper and reading it. You know, 432 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 8: you saw all of these people that were involved in 433 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 8: terms of trying to make sure that they can get 434 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 8: this their hands on the print copy itself, and it's 435 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 8: not just the copy, the whole newspaper, and they were 436 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 8: being sold out everywhere. I was extremely impressed by that 437 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 8: the most, And how how well the community has been 438 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 8: able to build a fence around this work and we're 439 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 8: still talking about it five five years later, and they're 440 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 8: still trying to diminish the work five years later, and 441 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 8: so I do think that history is definitely on our side, 442 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 8: and it will and it will prevail. 443 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 9: If you're looking for stories that move you, insights that 444 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 9: shift you, in conversations that stay deeply within you. Do 445 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 9: us a favor, and do yourself a favor and hit 446 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 9: the subscribe button right now. Is the best way to 447 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 9: support this podcast and support your journey. New episodes drop 448 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 9: every weekend. 449 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 3: Now, back to my legacy, both of my parents and 450 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 3: my grandparents, but certainly you know they attended segregated schools, 451 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 3: so you know, being born in nineteen seventy four, I'm 452 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 3: the first generation. I was the first generation of our 453 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 3: family to attend integrated schools. 454 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 7: So when you walk around and you. 455 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: Look and see the history, wasn't that long ago Martin 456 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 3: integrated one of the elementary schools here in Atlanta. But 457 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 3: another issue that sparked that you helped spark a national 458 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 3: conversation about was education and segregated schools. 459 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 7: And then you've written. 460 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 3: Very powerfully about your choice to send your daughter to 461 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 3: a majority black public school, a Title I school, instead 462 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: of a private school. And I'm sure I know that 463 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 3: both of you all thought long and hard about that decision. 464 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: So can you please let us know what was behind 465 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 3: that decision and how did you hope it would reframe 466 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: the conversation for parents. 467 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: My very first job as a journalist was covering the 468 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: Durham Public Schools in Durham, North Carolina. And Durham was 469 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: a majority black city but still had a substantial white 470 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: population and had very segregated schools. 471 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 4: And I just that I didn't want to be an 472 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 4: education reporter. 473 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: That was just the first job I got, but became 474 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: very interested in educational inequality, and I started covering that 475 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: right during No Child Left Behind. So I was seeing 476 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: really the disastrous impacts of a federal policy that was 477 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: trying to, you know, that was punishing these high poverty 478 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: black schools for not getting the same test scores as 479 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: these wealthy white schools, but not providing them the resources 480 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: that could allow them to actually, you know, compete academically. 481 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: So I was spending all of my time writing about 482 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: school on equality, and I just was constantly being confronted 483 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: with people who were working on behalf of these poor 484 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,919 Speaker 1: black schools and were trying to tackle school inequality and 485 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: who were lambasting, you know, school segregation. And then you 486 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: I'd asked, well, you know, where do you send your 487 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: children to school? 488 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 4: And not one of. 489 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: Them sent their kids to the types of schools that 490 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: they said they were fighting for. And I just remember, 491 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: and I didn't have any children at that time, and 492 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: I just remember being so struck by what felt like 493 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: a grave hypocrisy to me that you are arguing on 494 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: behalf of children that you're afraid to put your own 495 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: kids in school with. So I kind of made up 496 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 1: my mind back then that when and if I had 497 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: my own child, I was not going to make a 498 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: similar decision that I was going to try to live 499 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: my values now. Of course, as I as I have 500 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: said since then it's easy to have values when you 501 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: don't have to live them. So, you know, by the 502 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: time we have our own child. We moved to New 503 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: York City when when Naja was one year old, and uh, 504 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: as soon as we moved there, every middle class parent, 505 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: black or white, who had a child would say, oh, well, 506 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: you know, where are you going to send your child 507 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: to school? You have to you have to figure this out. No, 508 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: we don't send our kids to the local public schools. 509 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: And I was like, my child is one year old. 510 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not even thinking about that. And that's 511 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: when I understood it was going to be a test 512 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: of what what were we going to do. So when 513 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: our child got school a, I talked with Faraji and 514 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: I just said, we have to send her to the 515 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: type of schools that I write about. And in the 516 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: piece where I kind of document our educational choice for 517 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: my daughter, that's actually the cover of it. 518 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 4: Right there. 519 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: She was on the cover of the New York Times 520 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: magazine I talk about, you know, Frigie and I argued 521 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: about it, and I understood his concerns. I had the 522 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: same ones. I understood that there's nothing wrong with black schools, 523 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, inherently, but black schools just don't get the 524 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: same resources. And that's always been why Black Americans saw integration. 525 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: It wasn't just because they just wanted to have you know, 526 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: they were dying to have their kids sit next to 527 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: a white student, but there was an understanding that that 528 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: was the only way we've ever had kind of scalable equality. 529 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: So I talked to Frogie about it, and he felt, 530 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: you know, our parents really worked hard to not put 531 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: us in that educational environment. So why would we when 532 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: we have even more resources than our own parents put 533 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: our children in educate our child in an educational environment 534 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: that we don't have to. 535 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 5: Nicole, you talked about the challenge of that moment where 536 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 5: you got to live your values with your child like 537 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 5: that had to be one of the most emotionally challenging questions, 538 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 5: and so Fraugia, I'm so curious to hear your take 539 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 5: on this also, But if I could add one part, 540 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 5: I think it's so important for our listeners to understand Fraudian. 541 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 5: Thus I'm mistaken. I think that you have not only 542 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 5: chosen to send your child into the public school system, 543 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 5: but you are changing the system. You're now a member 544 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 5: of the New York City's Community Education Council. 545 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 8: New York school system is the most segregated in the 546 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 8: country according to the UCLA Civil Rights Project, So we 547 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 8: are functioning within de fact those segregating schools. So with 548 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 8: that that has been the foundation in terms of what 549 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 8: we are trying to do is fixed. I myself don't 550 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 8: think that our school system needs to be fixed. I 551 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 8: think it needs to be transformed, and we have yet 552 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 8: to begun to reckon with the historical fact of how 553 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 8: segregated our schools have been. In terms of me even 554 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 8: disagreeing with where to see my daughter, I thought that 555 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 8: the conversation was really important because these are conversations that 556 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 8: need to be had, and it was important that people 557 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 8: see the conversation that Nicole and I were having. And 558 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 8: it wasn't until we organically took the process of actually 559 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 8: going into the schools and having real conversations with principals, teachers, 560 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 8: and other staff members within the schools to really organically 561 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 8: have that conversation. Where it really hit me in the 562 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 8: gut was when I was actually looking in the faces 563 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 8: of some of these kids that looked like me. You know, 564 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 8: we have to understand it. Even if you are black 565 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 8: parents and you're part of the apple or the middle class, 566 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 8: you know, think about what you are saying in terms 567 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 8: of what if the school is not good for your child, 568 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 8: then it shouldn't be good for any of the children 569 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 8: that you are that's also attendee. 570 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: I mean one Fragi went from a skeptic to you know, 571 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: full on completely involved in the schools, such an advocate 572 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: for exactly those type of schools. But I think it's 573 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: important to say that one. I think everyone likes to 574 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: believe that they will be advocates for communities that they're 575 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: not part of, but I just don't think it often 576 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: is true. 577 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 4: I think you you never fight. It's hard for a 578 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 4: community that you don't belong to. 579 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: And for us, we didn't want to be separate. I 580 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: think it was really important. You know, my daughter lives 581 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: such a privileged life compared to anything either Frogie and 582 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: I grew up to I grew up with, but we 583 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: live in Best Die. She is comfortable around every type 584 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: of black person, and that is so important to me. 585 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: She doesn't think she's better than our neighbors who live 586 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: in the housing projects. She has been in classrooms for 587 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: almost an entire career with our neighbors of various economic statuses, 588 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: and that was really important to us that we did 589 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 1: not raise as black child who was uncomfortable around most 590 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: of our black folks, who would go home with me 591 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: to Waterloo, Iowa and fit right in. That was really critical. 592 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,479 Speaker 1: And the other thing I think that we don't talk 593 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 1: enough about is segregation that our students, our community faces 594 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: now is a race based, but it is also a 595 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: class based. So we talk about how white parents don't 596 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,959 Speaker 1: want to be in these schools, but middle class black 597 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: parents don't want to be in these schools either, And 598 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 1: we have also abandoned our communities. You know, a handful 599 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: of middle class parents cannot transform an entire system. Are 600 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: in the fight together with our community. And that mom 601 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: who's working at a fast food job does not have 602 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: the power that I do. When I go in a 603 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: school and I say something is wrong, as an investigative 604 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: reporter at the New York Times, they listen to me. 605 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that I care more about my child, 606 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean I'm more invested than other parents, but 607 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: I have more power. And I just have strongly believed 608 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: that the one kind of unintended consequence of integration has 609 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: been the abandonment of our poor communities by the black 610 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 1: middle class, and Frougie and I have just decided, both 611 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: of educational choices that we've made and where we have 612 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: decided to call our home, that we didn't want to 613 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: be part of that, that some of us have to 614 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: stay in our communities in order to be able to 615 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: fight with our communities. 616 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 3: I think that's why it's so critically important too. One 617 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 3: of the things that Martin's father said just few months 618 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 3: before he was assassinated is that I fear that in 619 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 3: the rush for integration that we're running into a burning, 620 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 3: burning house. And it's also important to remember that his 621 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 3: very last campaign was Poor People's Campaign, and it was 622 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 3: about bringing together black, white, Native Latino all coming together, appellation, 623 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 3: looking at the intersection, although they didn't use that term 624 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 3: in the sixties, but looking at the connections between you know, 625 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 3: poverty and bringing everyone together. Absolutely, it's an incredibly important 626 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 3: conversation and one in which a lot of black. 627 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 7: Families are having right now. 628 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 3: But in December, your daughter had the chance to talk 629 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 3: with Vice President Kamala Harris at a Christmas event at 630 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 3: the residence, and this question is for both of you, 631 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 3: what did that moment mean to you? And of course 632 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 3: we would like to know what she. 633 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 4: Told her that moment. It was probably the probably one 634 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 4: of the most important moments. 635 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 8: Of my daughter's life. And maybe she doesn't know it, 636 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 8: but I felt that that seed, that seed needed to 637 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 8: be planted, uh in terms of being able to look 638 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 8: a black woman in the eye, sitting in that seat, 639 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 8: even in the the atmosphere of defeat, and be able 640 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 8: to stand and talk to her people, and be able 641 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 8: to stand shake her hand and talk to her in 642 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 8: a way where there was no emotional uh, you know, disappointment. 643 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 8: It was more like here I am, I'm speaking to you. 644 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 8: She's speaking to her, She's seeing her in her highest moment. 645 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 7: Uh. 646 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 8: And I felt that that that's what That's what it 647 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 8: meant to me, was for my daughter to see, uh, 648 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 8: a black woman, even in defeat, see her at her 649 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 8: highest moment, holding her head high, being able to address 650 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 8: her and still be able to celebrate in that moment 651 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 8: despite we're going through in our country. 652 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was, it was. 653 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: It was a really powerful moment for us all because, 654 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: as Frogie said, no matter what the result of that 655 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: election was, hers was a historic barrier breaking candidacy, and 656 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: she is and will remain the first woman vice president 657 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: of the United States. 658 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 4: So and Howard alone, right. 659 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 10: So, so yeah, in that moment, you know, I had 660 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 10: spoken with the Vice President about my daughter before we 661 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 10: had we had talked about not just interested in Howard 662 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 10: and my interest in Naja going to Howard, and so 663 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 10: she just asked, you know, she asked Naja about Howard. 664 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: So I was like, yes, keep pushing her that way. 665 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: And she asked her what did she you know, what 666 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: did she want to do? Nija wants to be a doctor, 667 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: So Naja told her that, and she just told her, 668 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, to study hard and work hard for her goals. 669 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: And I think, just as a black girl in Trump's America, 670 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: having that sort of affirmation in that moment was really critical. 671 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: And I feel like you all have, I'm sure, done 672 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: this with your own child. Just hearing when you were 673 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: saying and you talked to her about Africa and taught 674 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: her about the continent, uh, not just being Agana twice. 675 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 4: I feel like that's so important. 676 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,320 Speaker 1: And I feel like since she was a young girl, 677 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 1: we tried to build armor around her. We tried to, 678 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, understand that We needed to shape her perception 679 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: of herself before she started going out into the world, 680 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: because the world was going to give her a completely 681 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: different perception of what a black girl was and could 682 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 1: and it should be. So we always tried to build 683 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: that in her before the world would try to tell 684 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: her something else. And so to have a black girl 685 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: be able to see this proud, strong, amazing black woman 686 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: in that position and have a moment with her, to me, 687 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: just affirmed in the biggest possible way everything that we 688 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: had tried to teach our daughter from her earliest days. 689 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 6: I have one final question. I want to kind of 690 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,760 Speaker 6: come full circle and go back to where we begin 691 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 6: the love story. 692 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 4: What have you each. 693 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 6: Learned is at the heart of a true partnership. 694 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 8: As a man who is married to someone who is successful, 695 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,439 Speaker 8: you know and come from I come from a very 696 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 8: conservative religious family, to where you know, the whole scripture 697 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 8: or the actual parable saying that the man is the 698 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 8: head and not the tale and all of those things. 699 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 8: You know, I've learned to shed a lot of those 700 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 8: ideas and understand that truly this is a partnership and 701 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 8: truly that the decisions you make in are connected to 702 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 8: that journey in your relationship and your family. And I'm 703 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,879 Speaker 8: gonna tell you, if I stood in my own way, 704 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 8: we will not be where we are today. You will 705 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 8: not probably see the sixteen nineteen project if I have 706 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 8: been an individual that was an obstacle in the way 707 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 8: of my wife. And I will continue to elevate, and 708 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 8: I will continue to support the work that she's doing 709 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 8: is important work, and I will forever be grateful. 710 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 4: Oh that was beautiful? 711 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 5: Can I say as a husband, I just hope this 712 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 5: moment in the broadcast is when every husband says that 713 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 5: to other fellow husband exactly. 714 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 2: Amen. 715 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 6: Amen. 716 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 1: So I think that you know, the biggest thing is 717 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: is compromise. It is forgiveness. It is a willingness to 718 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: admit when you're wrong. Like Frogie said, true partners, because 719 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 1: we really are what I'm I are most about. 720 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 4: Froggie one. He's just a good person. He's just kind 721 00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 4: and he's a good person. 722 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: I'm in the spotlight, but I could not do the 723 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: things that I do without a partner who's going to 724 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: be willing to be at home and make sure the 725 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: child gets to school, make sure Naja is fed, takes 726 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 1: her to her track, meets you know that is able 727 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: to be that completely supportive. 728 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 4: This man is my biggest cheerleader. 729 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: I mean, there's never I have friends where their their 730 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: spouse and particularly you know, their husbands are I don't 731 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,240 Speaker 1: want to say jealous of their success, but they feel 732 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: some type of way about it, and I've just never 733 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: had that. Every time somebody meets Froggie, I talked to 734 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: him later and they was like, man, he was bragging 735 00:42:53,560 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: about you, and I just I appreciate that so so much, 736 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: especially like he said, knowing you know, he's picked up 737 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: and moved across the country because I had opportunity. If 738 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: he hadn't agreed to come to New York, I wouldn't 739 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: have had the career that I had. And having a 740 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: spouse who support your dream and vision, sometimes even at 741 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: the cost of their own, it's just it is a 742 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: rare thing, and I'm very grateful for it. 743 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 5: Cool and Foraji. Your story is beautiful. To listen to 744 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 5: just the two of you together, you make me want 745 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 5: to call my wife right now. But more than that, 746 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 5: you've shown us that the truth telling is not only 747 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,320 Speaker 5: about reclaiming history, but when we talk about your own child, 748 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 5: it's about shaping the next generation and what we'll all inherit. 749 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 5: When you talk about the pushback that you receive from 750 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 5: the highest of powers. To judge our success sometimes by 751 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 5: how our enemies respond and live our values. It's easy 752 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 5: to preach it, but it's hard to live it. 753 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 3: I also was particularly moved by just this notion of 754 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 3: I've always heard a wise person say to not be 755 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 3: moved by the praise that you receive, nor the criticism 756 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 3: you know to So the fact that you seem to 757 00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 3: be so steady in that, I think is something that 758 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 3: I hope that our listeners take away with them. But 759 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 3: most importantly I keep coming back to is love. The 760 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 3: love that you all have first and foremost for each other. 761 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 3: This the story of love and partnership is truly beautiful. 762 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,320 Speaker 3: The love that you have for your daughter, the love 763 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 3: that you have for our people. It really shows us 764 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 3: the importance of partnership and love that particularly that highest 765 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 3: form of love, that is the remembrance of the fact 766 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 3: that we're all interconnected. And once we stay and to 767 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 3: move forward in that power, that's when we really will 768 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,440 Speaker 3: see more and more change in our households and our 769 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 3: nations and our world. So thank you for sharing that 770 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:11,439 Speaker 3: part of yourselves with us. 771 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you, thank you for joining us. 772 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 2: If you enjoy today's conversation, subscribe, share, and follow us 773 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 2: on at my Legacy Movement on social media and YouTube. 774 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:27,280 Speaker 2: New episodes drop every Tuesday, with bonus content every Thursday. 775 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,799 Speaker 2: At its core, this podcast honors doctor King's vision of 776 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,760 Speaker 2: the beloved community and the power of connection. A Legacy 777 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 2: Plus Studio production distributed by iHeartMedia creator and executive producer 778 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 2: Suzanne Hayward come executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen on the 779 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.