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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back my friends to coast to coast George,

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Speaker 2: noriy with you, Phoenix Lefe back with us. Her latest

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Speaker 2: book is called Spirit Magic. She's a modern witch and

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Speaker 2: root worker. Phoenix Lafey started in the path of witchcraft

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Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety three. She has been trained in

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Speaker 2: several witchcraft traditions, always looking to learn more, of course,

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Speaker 2: and expand her knowledge. Phoenix has been initiated into the

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Speaker 2: Reclaiming tradition of witchcraft, the Avalon Druid Order and WICCA. Phoenix,

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Speaker 2: welcome back. How are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm good, George, how are you good?

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Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to this. So what happened in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety three to get you into witchcraft?

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Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety three, I went through a sort of

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Speaker 3: crisis of faith or life or how you are, however

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Speaker 3: you might look at it. I had excruciating teen angst,

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Speaker 3: I suppose you could say. And I started to learn

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Speaker 3: about different religions because I wasn't raised with any specific religion.

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Speaker 3: So I felt like if I had some sort of

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Speaker 3: guiding force, maybe what I was experiencing wouldn't be so challenging,

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Speaker 3: and there'd be like a light that could guide me.

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Speaker 3: And I found a book about witchcraft in a bookstore,

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Speaker 3: and it talked about a goddess and worshiping the earth

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Speaker 3: and being connected and all of these things that made

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Speaker 3: perfect sense to me. And that was it. I was

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Speaker 3: hooked and I dove head first and I haven't looked back.

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Speaker 2: What did your parents say about that? Are your relatives?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my parents were kind of okay with it. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I live in a pretty progressive little bubble in northern California,

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Speaker 3: so they were cautious. The only time my mom got

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Speaker 3: concerned was when I started reading tarot cards. That kind

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Speaker 3: of freaked her out a little bit. But overall, I

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Speaker 3: think they realized that I'm a pretty level headed and

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Speaker 3: good person, and I want to help other people, and

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Speaker 3: so they figured if there was something that was calling

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Speaker 3: to my spirit, that it probably was something beneficial that

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Speaker 3: was going to be used to help other people.

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Speaker 2: I think Hansel and Gretel and the Wizard of Oz

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Speaker 2: scared the living daylights out of people about witches, don't you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I agree. Funnily enough, Hansel and Gretel the story

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Speaker 3: of the witch in the Woods is actually based on

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Speaker 3: salt Slavic folklore about a goddess named Baba Yaga. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: it is scary there there. You never know when there's

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Speaker 3: a bony witch hate hiding in the woods that might

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Speaker 3: want to eat you.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'll always remember that scene in The Wizard

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Speaker 2: of Oz where she goes, I'm going to get you

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Speaker 2: by pretty that's right, that's cackle. Do you do you

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Speaker 2: have a cackle?

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Speaker 3: I'm not very good at it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, give it a try. How's that not bad? And

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Speaker 2: you don't have a broom, right?

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Speaker 3: Actually, I have a room above my front door that

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Speaker 3: I use. Really, yeah, I use it as like a

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Speaker 3: protection charm. It sweeps out trouble.

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Speaker 2: Why does so many people think witchcraft is evil? Because

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Speaker 2: it really isn't.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really isn't. I think that witchcraft has just

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Speaker 3: been given a bad rap. I mean, we could go

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Speaker 3: into the you know, you could get my feminist rage

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Speaker 3: fuming here if we go too deep into it. But

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, it's it's not the status quo,

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Speaker 3: it's not what's expected. It's it is about empowerment, and

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Speaker 3: it goes against the grain of our of our society

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Speaker 3: and so that's that's kind of scary. People don't necessarily

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Speaker 3: like things to rock the boat. But also, you know

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Speaker 3: our pop culture and folklore and mythology and stories, witches

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Speaker 3: are always the characters that are mischievous or harmful or

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Speaker 3: causing chaos and the story and so, you know, those

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Speaker 3: things stuck and culturally we still have those things come

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Speaker 3: up when we hear the word witch.

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Speaker 2: Is there a difference between witchcraft and wicca?

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Speaker 3: You know, once upon a time I would have said no,

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Speaker 3: but that has changed and now there is definitely a

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Speaker 3: difference between witchcraft and wicca. You know, back in the

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Speaker 3: fifties in England, the laws about being a witch, the

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Speaker 3: anti witchcraft laws, were repealed, and then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: all these people came out of the woodwork saying that

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Speaker 3: they were witches and had practiced witchcraft. And one of

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Speaker 3: those people was Gerald Gardner, and he wrote a book

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Speaker 3: about witchcraft and he became quite famous. And now there's

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Speaker 3: this lineage of witchcraft called Gardenerian wicca based off of

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Speaker 3: Gerald Gardner's books, and it had a huge influence on

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Speaker 3: witchcraft and wicca, and you can see threads of it

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Speaker 3: in modern practices everywhere. But there's also all these other

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Speaker 3: flavors that are connected more to earth work, ship or

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Speaker 3: folklore or folk magic that aren't necessarily in alignment with

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Speaker 3: WICCA and this very specific lineage of practice. So they're

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Speaker 3: different things. I think they're related, and for me, they're related,

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Speaker 3: but each practitioner is a little bit different, so they

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Speaker 3: have their own flavors, they're different tracks.

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Speaker 2: Is a male witch a warlock? Is that accurate?

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Speaker 3: Yes and no. So once upon a time the word

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Speaker 3: warlock actually meant like oath breaker, someone who went against

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Speaker 3: his coven, But modern male witches will often use the

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Speaker 3: term warlock, and just as many modern male witches will

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Speaker 3: just call themselves a witch. So either way, I think

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Speaker 3: it's okay.

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Speaker 2: You remember the TV show Bewitched with Elizabeth Montgomery. Absolutely

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Speaker 2: that was a classic. And the way she used to

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Speaker 2: wiggler knows. I know.

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Speaker 3: I've tried to do that all the time, all the time.

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Speaker 3: It still isn't working for me.

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Speaker 2: She was a good witch, but her mother, who played

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Speaker 2: the party Agnus Morehead, Yeah, she was kind of evil

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Speaker 2: in that show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but she was like the catalyst, right, she didn't

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Speaker 3: suffer fools, She wasn't going to put up with any shenanigans,

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Speaker 3: and I appreciate that. I like that kind of lady.

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Speaker 2: Do you cast spells on people?

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Speaker 3: I don't cast spells on people, but I do cast spells.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a distinction. I work magic to help

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Speaker 3: improve my life, and if someone asks for my assistance,

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Speaker 3: I will cast spells or do magic to help them

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Speaker 3: improve their lives. But I'm not necessarily doing magic to

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Speaker 3: cause chaos. I'm not andorra causing chaos in anyone else's life.

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Speaker 3: There's enough negative energy out in the world that I

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Speaker 3: don't feel like I need to add to it. But

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Speaker 3: I could. And you know, I've been practicing witshcraft a

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Speaker 3: long time, and when I was a teenager, I wasn't

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Speaker 3: ascerning as I am now. So you know, I did

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Speaker 3: some maybe reckless things when I was a lot younger,

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Speaker 3: but I've grown out of that. I think that's for

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Speaker 3: the best.

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Speaker 2: I mean, could you actually cast a spell to do

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Speaker 2: somebody get into a car accident or something like that.

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Speaker 3: It's not that cut and dry, right, So there's definitely

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Speaker 3: a way to work magic to have chaos brought into

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Speaker 3: someone's life. You might call that like a curse. You

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Speaker 3: could work negative energy that is impacting someone else's life,

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Speaker 3: and that could absolutely cause a car accident. But if

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Speaker 3: you're going to do a spell to say I want

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Speaker 3: this person to be in a car accident, the chances

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Speaker 3: of that happening are pretty slim. But you can send bainful,

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Speaker 3: negative magic their way, and then often people will experience

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Speaker 3: like a series of misfortune when something like happens. They

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Speaker 3: might get ill, they might have money issues, their car

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Speaker 3: mic break down, they might get in a car accident.

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Speaker 3: It can manifests in a lot of different ways, but

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Speaker 3: it's not always so cut and dry, like I want

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Speaker 3: this to happen. You have to leave a little bit

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Speaker 3: of space. We don't necessarily have that much control when

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Speaker 3: we work spells.

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Speaker 2: Does a positive spell seem to work better than a

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Speaker 2: negative spell?

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Speaker 3: You know, all spells take energy, and so when you

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Speaker 3: are putting your energy into something positive, you're going to

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Speaker 3: feel the reverb of that working. It's going to help

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Speaker 3: you feel more positive, it's going to help you see

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Speaker 3: more good in the world. But if you're so focused

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Speaker 3: on the negative and you're doing harmful or baneful magic,

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Speaker 3: you're going to feel the reverb of that too, And

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Speaker 3: so it is I don't recommend people do cursing or

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Speaker 3: baneful magic because it does cause not just chaos in

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Speaker 3: the life of someone you may be trying to harm,

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Speaker 3: but it's also going to cause chaos in your life.

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Speaker 3: And it's really it's not worth it. It's really not

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Speaker 3: worth it. And you know, you want to bring more

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Speaker 3: good into the world and not more negativity. There's plenty

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Speaker 3: of that that exists that we don't need to get

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Speaker 3: involved with.

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Speaker 2: That is so true. I mean, the world events that

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Speaker 2: are going on now, we need good spells to make

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Speaker 2: some of those things go away.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Do we need to go to a witch to have

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Speaker 2: a spell done or can we do it on our own?

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. You know what's interesting about that

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Speaker 3: is anyone can work a spell. Anyone can work a spell.

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Speaker 3: And it's kind of like if you've never made a

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Speaker 3: cake before, you can totally follow a recipe and put

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Speaker 3: it in the oven at the right temperature and make

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Speaker 3: sure you know you follow the recipe to a tea,

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Speaker 3: you're probably going to have a pretty successful cake. But

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Speaker 3: if you've never done it before and you're not certain

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Speaker 3: and you don't trust your ability, and you doubt whether

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Speaker 3: you have the right sugar, and do you think maybe

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Speaker 3: I should use a half a cup instead of a cup,

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Speaker 3: then you're going to run into trouble. So anyone can

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Speaker 3: work a spell, but it does practice and it takes focus,

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Speaker 3: and some of us are more gifted at that than others.

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Speaker 2: Can I call you a good witch?

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Speaker 3: I think I'm neutral?

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Speaker 2: What you call it with Phoenix Lay who website is

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Speaker 2: linked up at coast tocoastdamn dot com and or new

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Speaker 2: book which we'll talk about this hour is called spirit magic,

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Speaker 2: which just came out. Yes, what about prayer? Would you

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Speaker 2: call it prayer a spell?

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Speaker 3: I do? Personally, I do consider prayer spell. I know

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Speaker 3: for other magical practitioners and for some witches, that word

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Speaker 3: is very charged because it is something that's used in

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Speaker 3: you know, Christianity and more mainstream religious practice, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of people leave mainstream religion like Christianity and seek

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Speaker 3: out witchcraft, and they don't want to return to some

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Speaker 3: of those practices that they've left behind. But most spells

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Speaker 3: really are a form of prayer work, and prayer works

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Speaker 3: like that's been side and typically proven that prayer works

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Speaker 3: to help people heal, to help people bring more calm,

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Speaker 3: into people's lives to help people recover from surgeries, like

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Speaker 3: it really does work. So you know, I think there's

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Speaker 3: room for prayer in anyone's practice, whether they're atheist or

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Speaker 3: a witch or a Christian. I think it just helps

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Speaker 3: us connect and remember that there's something bigger than ourselves

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Speaker 3: out there in the world.

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Speaker 2: Why does so many people believe that witchcraft is associated

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Speaker 2: with the devil?

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Speaker 3: The devil? Well, so, oh, you're getting me on my

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Speaker 3: folklore nerd road here. So back in the day before

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Speaker 3: Christianity was the main religion of Europe, there were multiple

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Speaker 3: deities that Pagans worshiped that were spirits of the forest.

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Speaker 3: And often these deities had like horns because they were

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Speaker 3: spirits of the forest. And so as Christianity sort of

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Speaker 3: became more popular and started to spread throughout Europe, one

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Speaker 3: of the things that the missionaries would do is to

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Speaker 3: convert people. And they would say, oh, no, but what

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Speaker 3: you're practicing is wrong, or what you're practicing is evil,

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Speaker 3: and I can prove that to you because your God

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Speaker 3: of the forest looks just like the devil, and the

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Speaker 3: devil's evil, so therefore what you're doing is evil. And

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Speaker 3: so it was sort of used as this tool of conversion,

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Speaker 3: of changing people's belief systems from something more pagan and

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Speaker 3: earth based into something Christianity and Christian based. And that's

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Speaker 3: really stuck this idea of the horned God being connected

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Speaker 3: to the devil. But you know, in mythology, all religions

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Speaker 3: have mythology, and Christian mythology is just one of those

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Speaker 3: many flavors of mythology. The devil's a Christian story, it's

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Speaker 3: not really a story outside of Christianity. Will in Judaism

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Speaker 3: like sort of you know those the big three of

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Speaker 3: them of Jehovah. Right, So there isn't really a devil

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Speaker 3: in witchcraft, but there are gods that look a little devilish.

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Speaker 3: Let's say put it that way.

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Speaker 2: In witchcraft, do they believe in the God?

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Speaker 3: You know, if you asked for which is that question,

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Speaker 3: you'd get like twelve different answers, some which is believe

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Speaker 3: in a goddess like a main creatrix force in the universe,

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Speaker 3: some which is believe in no gods at all, that

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Speaker 3: it's nature and nature is the being the entity which

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Speaker 3: is are polytheists meaning that they believe that there's lots

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Speaker 3: of gods. There's multiple gods and we can choose to

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Speaker 3: work with or devote ourselves to any number of them.

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Speaker 3: So it kind of depends on the witch that you

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Speaker 3: talk to. Me. I'm a polytheist, so I believe that

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Speaker 3: there's lots of gods and I find them all fascinating

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Speaker 3: and interesting and I want to know all their stories

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Speaker 3: and I want to hear all about all of them

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Speaker 3: and where they came from.

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Speaker 2: In the past, there were some people like Anton Leabay

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Speaker 2: who were devil worshipers. Yeah, do we still have that

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Speaker 2: going on today?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah, absolutely there. The Church of Satan is a

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Speaker 3: huge organization and they're actually doing really good work in

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Speaker 3: the world, which is fascinating. Yeah, it's really interesting if

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Speaker 3: you if you google the Church of Satan and see

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Speaker 3: some of the things that those guys are up to.

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Speaker 3: They're doing some really interesting things to save free speech

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Speaker 3: and pay for school lunches and all kinds of interesting

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Speaker 3: things across the United States especially. But yeah, there's still

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Speaker 3: definitely people out there, and you know, and I've run

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Speaker 3: into a few folks who are are sort of in

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Speaker 3: that world. And what I'll say, what I've experienced of

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Speaker 3: folks who are believed themselves to be Satanists or part

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Speaker 3: of the Church of Satan is that what they really

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Speaker 3: believe in is their own free will and that there

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Speaker 3: is no God above their own will. And so it's

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Speaker 3: just a different way of looking at the world. It's

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Speaker 3: more about the serving the self rather than serving like

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Speaker 3: a god.

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Speaker 2: What would you say, Phoenix is the biggest miss conception

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Speaker 2: about witchcraft?

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Speaker 3: You know, I think the biggest misconception is that there's

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Speaker 3: a that it's evil, that there's you know, these people

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Speaker 3: are malicious or want to cause harm or sacrificing animals,

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Speaker 3: things like that. That really isn't the energy of witchcraft.

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Speaker 3: It really isn't the energy of modern witchcraft. You know,

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Speaker 3: for the most of the witches I know, and you know,

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Speaker 3: there's there's always an an outlier out there in any group,

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Speaker 3: but for the most part, which is want to have

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Speaker 3: a better world. We want to save the planet, we

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Speaker 3: want to take care of nature, we want to take

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Speaker 3: care of other humans. We want to have equality, and

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Speaker 3: we want fairness, you know, so all of these things

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Speaker 3: that are really good, And I think that's that's a

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Speaker 3: big misconception, is that there's this evil energy behind witchcraft.

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Speaker 3: It's really not. It's really about love and connection and

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Speaker 3: remembering that at the end of the day, we are

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Speaker 3: of the earth. Someday we will die and go return

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Speaker 3: to the earth, and it's honoring that cycle and remembering

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Speaker 3: we're a part of it.

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Speaker 2: We have had some good witches on the program in

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Speaker 2: the past. Are had Evelyn Paglini who passed away. I've

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Speaker 2: had horn On. Yes, there are a lot of good

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Speaker 2: witches out there.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Both those women were and are amazing witches.

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Speaker 2: Is there a school for witchcraft where you could go

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Speaker 2: and attend?

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Speaker 3: I wish, you know, I always when I was first

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Speaker 3: getting involved with witchcraft. I this was back when you

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Speaker 3: looked for a job in the newspaper, which is not

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Speaker 3: something that exists anymore. But I always wish I could

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Speaker 3: open up a newspaper and be like hiring witch and priestess.

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Speaker 3: And I never really found that job in any newspaper

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Speaker 3: that I looked in. There's not really one organization or

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Speaker 3: one body of that trains witches or teaches witchcraft, but

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of small groups like covens and smaller

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Speaker 3: local communities that help train witches because it is a

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Speaker 3: lot of grassroots vibes in the witchcraft world. You know,

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Speaker 3: you're more likely to find someone who wants to teach

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Speaker 3: or train you on a one on one basis rather

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Speaker 3: than someone who wants to, you know, open a school

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Speaker 3: like Hogwarts. You know it is it is very much

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Speaker 3: about the one on one connection. Because witchcraft is so personal,

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Speaker 3: and it is so driven by your own beliefs and

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Speaker 3: your own way of looking at the world and your

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Speaker 3: own personal spiritual growth, that it really is best to

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Speaker 3: have a small group or just a few mentors to

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Speaker 3: help you sort of find your way along the path.

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Speaker 2: What advice would you give to a child who says

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Speaker 2: I want to be a witch.

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Speaker 3: I'd say, sweet, let's go make a potion.

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Speaker 2: Let's let's go put a spell on somebody.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly who made you mad at school today? No,

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Speaker 3: I'm just kidding, you know. I think if there's a

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Speaker 3: smaller person, a child, who wants to get involved in witchcraft,

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Speaker 3: and I think the first place to go is to

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Speaker 3: somewhere in nature and to talk to the trees and

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Speaker 3: to listen to the birds, and to touch running water

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Speaker 3: like that's witchcraft.

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