Speaker 1: Hey, Hey, this is John O'Brien, entrepreneur and a fellow
Speaker 1: builder just like you. Thanks to the help of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Prudential Financial, I'd like to present to
Speaker 1: you my brand new podcast. It's called Building the Good
Speaker 1: where each week a special friend and I will unpack
Speaker 1: and talk in detail about financial literacy, building, generational well
Speaker 1: building that community building the best version of you. Make
Speaker 1: sure to listen to Building a Good Life on the
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcast. I'm Colleen with joined me the host of
Speaker 1: Eating Wall Broke podcast while I eat a meal created
Speaker 1: by self made entrepreneurs, influencers, and celebrities over a meal
Speaker 1: they once ate when they were broke. Today I have
Speaker 1: the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess of Compson, Asia
Speaker 1: Kid and Asia. This is the professor. We're here on
Speaker 1: Eating Wall Broke, and today I'm gonna break down my
Speaker 1: meal that got me through the time when I was broken.
Speaker 1: Listen to Eating Wall Broke on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: on Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The
Speaker 1: Black Effect presents I didn't know maybe you didn't either,
Speaker 1: but the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery.
Speaker 1: Oh no, his royalty not despair. Beat out here and
Speaker 1: every day in February, I will give you a Black
Speaker 1: history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either.
Speaker 1: It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So
Speaker 1: I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black
Speaker 1: Effect Podcast Network, our Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or
Speaker 1: just wherever you get your podcast from. I am Kevin
Speaker 1: Riley was a president of end VC Entertainment through the
Speaker 1: entire first chapter of the American version of the Office. Hello, peeps, welcome,
Speaker 1: We're at it again. This is The Office Deep Dive,
Speaker 1: and I am your host. I am Bom Gartner. Today
Speaker 1: you will be listening to my interview with Kevin Riley.
Speaker 1: Who's Kevin Riley? Why are you interviewing him? I don't
Speaker 1: even remember his name from the credits. Well that's true.
Speaker 1: Kevin Riley was not in the credits for the show
Speaker 1: because Kevin Riley was even more powerful than that. Kevin
Speaker 1: Riley was the NBC executive that was responsible for bringing
Speaker 1: The Office to the air. If it were not for
Speaker 1: Kevin Riley, the Office would have been canceled after six episodes.
Speaker 1: Kevin staked his reputation on our show, and he fought
Speaker 1: for us every step of the way. And by the way,
Speaker 1: Kevin is responsible for shows not just The Office. Kevin
Speaker 1: was a network executive behind such shows as Saved by
Speaker 1: the Bell, e r Law and Freaking Order, The Shield,
Speaker 1: Niptuck Rescue Me. Then after the Office, he went on
Speaker 1: to develop shows like thirty Rock, Friday Night Lights, Glee,
Speaker 1: New Girl, Bob's Burgers, The Mindy Project. I'm gonna stop,
Speaker 1: but my point is we all, oh Kevin, a gigantic
Speaker 1: thank you for giving us not just The Office but
Speaker 1: also like of our favorite TV shows. So on that note,
Speaker 1: I present to you the man behind the Curtain, Kevin Riley,
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak on
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeaker cooking at every month, left over from
Speaker 1: the night before. Great to see you. It's been so long,
Speaker 1: are you? Are you putting this whole thing together? I'm
Speaker 1: putting this whole time. I did not know that. I know,
Speaker 1: I love it, you know, I just didn't connect, as
Speaker 1: Ben caught me in between meetings any of them. The
Speaker 1: podcast that I realized and then I love that you're doing.
Speaker 1: It's actually perfect. By the way, I never even connected
Speaker 1: to this moment. You also have like a great podcast
Speaker 1: voice too. You done voice over over there, I've done
Speaker 1: more recently. You can get in there and do what
Speaker 1: you need to. No, No, You're fine. I've been told
Speaker 1: this a while and it's my cadence mostly of my
Speaker 1: real book is that I sound like Tom Hanks. So
Speaker 1: there's a no, there's is actually true. I know, I
Speaker 1: never I never know. Now that you say it, yes,
Speaker 1: I have that, then describes it as um, a smoky,
Speaker 1: potentially whiskey laden version of Tom Hanks's voice. Um, but
Speaker 1: I'll take it whatever. Um. So yeah, I mean we've
Speaker 1: it's been amazing. I mean so much that I have learned,
Speaker 1: and you obviously so important, and especially these early years.
Speaker 1: So I want to take you back. So you join
Speaker 1: f x and two thousand and you're there through three
Speaker 1: years right in this actual building, which is crazy coming
Speaker 1: in in this build looking in. Yeah, this building was
Speaker 1: a sort of Fox outpost. It really was the New
Speaker 1: World Television building. It was really a crappy building. Yes,
Speaker 1: in fact, it hasn't been really improved that much. They
Speaker 1: put a little veneer on it. But at the time
Speaker 1: I mean, my rug. I had left these beautiful offices
Speaker 1: in my previous job. My my, my rug had a
Speaker 1: giant stain in the middle. It was literally a hole
Speaker 1: in the wall in my office. And I said to
Speaker 1: the office manager. She said, hey, anything, we can do
Speaker 1: whatever you need, just let me know and we'll get
Speaker 1: it for you. And I said, you know, you think
Speaker 1: I get two chairs that match and she said, no,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we can't do that. That's where it was.
Speaker 1: But then things really a golf um. So Ben was
Speaker 1: telling me that you had well. Nick grab was your
Speaker 1: development executives and he apparently was a big fan of
Speaker 1: the British version of the office. And now when did
Speaker 1: you become aware of the British version of the office?
Speaker 1: I had heard of it, but Nick has always had
Speaker 1: a good nose for sort of what's next. He was
Speaker 1: the guy always looked to like, is this sound cool? Yeah, okay, great,
Speaker 1: I think it's cool too, you know. And so it
Speaker 1: was one of those where I had kind of heard
Speaker 1: about it. I was like, yeah, I thought this, I
Speaker 1: think this thing is something. And he came seeing it
Speaker 1: and talking to Bed we can get it, and it's
Speaker 1: we gotta have it. And now did you meet with
Speaker 1: Ben while you were at f X. No, we never did. Really.
Speaker 1: What it was is I was in the middle of
Speaker 1: that transition where it was three magical years of f
Speaker 1: X with a lot of things happening. This is on
Speaker 1: the heels of winning all awards with a Shield and
Speaker 1: NIPT and Rescue Me was being cast, and Russo's first
Speaker 1: project Lucky was here, and it was just a lot happening,
Speaker 1: and this would have tucked right in so it was
Speaker 1: a perfect effect show. But my contract was up. I
Speaker 1: was in the middle of a lot of negotiations and
Speaker 1: it looked like I'm going back to NBC at this point,
Speaker 1: and that's when I start talking to Ben because I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, look, I'm not maybe not staying it, but
Speaker 1: if I go, I'd like to take this with me
Speaker 1: out the door. And you know, wisely, I think Ben
Speaker 1: smelled the opportunity would have made a great effect show,
Speaker 1: but just from a value perspective, I think he was like, well,
Speaker 1: that's that's better. So we kind of then went quiet
Speaker 1: on it and just sort of sat on it. Okay,
Speaker 1: So then he started meeting with you once you had
Speaker 1: gone uh to NBC. Yeah, we had kind of wink
Speaker 1: winked like, I'll see you over there. But at that
Speaker 1: point then it picked up momentum. I was going, that
Speaker 1: happened pretty quick, and we need to take it over
Speaker 1: to him. And you made a deal there, so you
Speaker 1: pick up the pilot. Now you've got to find somebody
Speaker 1: to run it, and you start meeting with with showrunners
Speaker 1: to run it. What were your initial instincts about Greg? Well, Greg,
Speaker 1: he certainly from the get go had my respect. I
Speaker 1: mean he's known as a very thorough for a couple
Speaker 1: of things. Number One, all those years on King of
Speaker 1: the Hill, Yes, which was a show I loved, and
Speaker 1: I know Greg from everybody I knew respect it said
Speaker 1: Greg was the real deal. And then secondly Conan, who
Speaker 1: I now subsequently have gotten you know, known for decades
Speaker 1: at this point. But I knew that they had come
Speaker 1: up together and we're both close college friends and had
Speaker 1: comedy background together, and I just so I don't think
Speaker 1: we really ever That wasn't really ever sell for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wondered if because he hadn't come from you know,
Speaker 1: live action scripted, if there was any concern about that,
Speaker 1: or you just met with him and you knew as
Speaker 1: most people do who meet Greg that you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just that quiet confidence, you know, where you know,
Speaker 1: when he says things like the same show with Hope,
Speaker 1: You're like, Okay, I think we're I think we're good
Speaker 1: to go here. That like mad like that, not even
Speaker 1: professor but a genius. Yeah, I mean, you know, but
Speaker 1: early on, when you're trying to have this give and
Speaker 1: take conversation, you know, Greg is a man of few words,
Speaker 1: and sometimes you know, kind of just sort of drifts
Speaker 1: off all and you and we kind of left there. Okay,
Speaker 1: So early on it took me a while to get
Speaker 1: the rhythm of you know, he's not a guy where
Speaker 1: you're kind of, you know, hitting it back all over
Speaker 1: the net with some top spin on it. Like I
Speaker 1: think Greg got that. How involved were you specifically obviously
Speaker 1: you had final say, but in in the casting, how
Speaker 1: involved were you and choosing the people? Well, the casting
Speaker 1: is something you ultimately have improval over at the network
Speaker 1: because it's it's really everything at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: I mean, you got to get the script right. But
Speaker 1: the script right with the wrong casting, you know, you're
Speaker 1: you're dead, especially in comedy, and this was a in
Speaker 1: some ways of fantasy casting process, because first of all,
Speaker 1: we were out of cycle, you know, so we didn't
Speaker 1: have to do this in the shotgun old pilot season
Speaker 1: lock and load. You know, you've got five minutes to
Speaker 1: cast it. We had months and months to do it.
Speaker 1: And I have to say, I don't know how many
Speaker 1: they went through. It was never privy to how many
Speaker 1: came in. But all I know is, you know, the
Speaker 1: trickiest one obviously was Michael and it came down to
Speaker 1: Bob Oton kirk uh and who was the guy that
Speaker 1: we end up casting in? What was this CORRELLI? Yeah,
Speaker 1: howd that work out? And so you know, and I'd
Speaker 1: known Bob back from the Mr. Show days my former company,
Speaker 1: uh Brillstein Entertainment, we produced Mr. Show. And you know,
Speaker 1: I thought Bob was a major talent. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I had a great take on the character, a different one.
Speaker 1: So my involvement is I saw every audition for every
Speaker 1: character and they were just fantastic. You know. By the
Speaker 1: sometimes this process can be really a struggle. You know,
Speaker 1: someone who brings it in and they go, we found
Speaker 1: the guy, and you look at it and you go,
Speaker 1: this is this the guy you're talking about? Did I
Speaker 1: get the wrong all right, boy, I am just not
Speaker 1: seeing it. We had none of those. I mean every
Speaker 1: time it was like, well, that's the guy. And then
Speaker 1: Jennet came in, Oh my god, that's her. And it
Speaker 1: was just right from the get go. I think everybody
Speaker 1: just made decisions and had a nudget in their own
Speaker 1: direction and it was a blast. And then guys like
Speaker 1: you you know, who were just coming out of nowhere
Speaker 1: where where wait? Wait where this guy come from? This
Speaker 1: is fantastic. How on board were you with the idea
Speaker 1: of total unknowns? I mean Steve had you know, had
Speaker 1: Bruce Almighty? I had no, Well he look Steve. I
Speaker 1: had done multiple busted pilots with Steve and several bad
Speaker 1: series that he had co starred in or been in.
Speaker 1: He was always funny, and this goes back to the
Speaker 1: Dana Carvey Show with he called There, and I mean
Speaker 1: it was it's got It's got its own little weird cult.
Speaker 1: Following there was like a Netflix special about it, and
Speaker 1: at that time I was like, Wow, that guy Correll
Speaker 1: is funny and he was always good. But it was
Speaker 1: always good in a bad thing, you know, or something
Speaker 1: that was okay but didn't take off. Actually, during the
Speaker 1: casting process when we were considering, Steve Stacy Snyder called
Speaker 1: me up. Was running Universal Pictures at the time, and
Speaker 1: that was our sister company at the feature side. He
Speaker 1: was doing Four year Old Virgin and she said, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna send you some dailies. You should see them. And
Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, this is a whole another gear
Speaker 1: for this guy. And I don't want to say that
Speaker 1: was what sealed because, by the way, at that point,
Speaker 1: who knows what that movie is gonna do. It's not like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's already a star, We'll just plug him in. And
Speaker 1: then it was just one of those kids met kind
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Speaker 1: to Before Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so
Speaker 1: you meet Grag all these cast members. It gets picked
Speaker 1: up to a pilot. How has that received? It wasn't
Speaker 1: you know? It wasn't shown widely? Um. David Kissinger was
Speaker 1: running the studio at the time, was also really an
Speaker 1: advocate and passionate for this, and he was a co
Speaker 1: conspirator with me, But it was still delivered it to
Speaker 1: me and I would just say it was very slow.
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I can see the show in there,
Speaker 1: but but man, we are defying people's patients here. Like editorially,
Speaker 1: it needed a lot of sculpting. You could see the comedy,
Speaker 1: you could see the characters. That was not a concern.
Speaker 1: Those are one of the big eases. Oh no, we've
Speaker 1: got wrong people, or this guy's not delivering, she's terrible. No,
Speaker 1: that was not the issue. What was working. What was working,
Speaker 1: But you know, that narrative was sort of going. And
Speaker 1: I would say one of the biggest things I had
Speaker 1: to work with Greg on is was just looking in
Speaker 1: network television. You had to get through act breaks, you
Speaker 1: had to go sell toothpaste in the middle, and so
Speaker 1: I'd say, like, you know, Greg, we just sort of
Speaker 1: trail off here on these act breaks, and you know,
Speaker 1: we lose the narrative thread and that's kind of fun,
Speaker 1: but we gotta we gotta sculptu. I think Greg went
Speaker 1: back and this is really I think where we forged
Speaker 1: our relationship, because it could have been brutal, and at
Speaker 1: least I thought it was a creatively fun thing. I
Speaker 1: think he did four team cuts of the pilot. It
Speaker 1: may have been sixteen, you'd have to ask Greg. But
Speaker 1: it was double digits and really really, and that's where
Speaker 1: I saw, really his true gift that he could find
Speaker 1: find it and he knew where it was and he
Speaker 1: could hunt for it in everyone. It was just Sharper
Speaker 1: and Sharper and Sharper, and you could I could just
Speaker 1: see it right, yeah, wow, And so they that we
Speaker 1: had time again. Had this been done in pilot season,
Speaker 1: these are the vagaries of the whole thing. Had this
Speaker 1: been done even with my support and love, had we
Speaker 1: had only the time? Had this been the usual way
Speaker 1: pilot season was down, you shot in sometime April, you
Speaker 1: had a sometimes as to Editive, not weeks, because you
Speaker 1: had to go deliver it and test it and do
Speaker 1: this thing and then boom and then screen it. You know.
Speaker 1: Sometimes many of these pilots are screened off of two cuts.
Speaker 1: If we had done that, dead just dead again. I
Speaker 1: loved it, and I was like, wow, when this needs
Speaker 1: work and we had time to do the work. So
Speaker 1: now we were sitting the other part when you were
Speaker 1: playing the system was you didn't want to be in
Speaker 1: too early. You want to hit a sweet spot when
Speaker 1: they're dying to see something new and maybe you've got
Speaker 1: a shot just psychically, Oh, here's something, we could be
Speaker 1: the next thing. And you kind of get in there
Speaker 1: and you don't want to be the leading edge. You
Speaker 1: don't want to be the last one. And this thing
Speaker 1: just sat and sad and sad sad, and as it
Speaker 1: got exposed through the system, let's just say there the
Speaker 1: system wasn't overly responsive. Yeah, I mean, look the network
Speaker 1: at that point, had you know, I had started my
Speaker 1: career at NBC. I was there for six of the
Speaker 1: great years coming up, the heyday of NBC, the great
Speaker 1: and great things we're in and hard to cover in
Speaker 1: the network. I remember looking at his office and at
Speaker 1: some point I done to me, I don't wonder if
Speaker 1: I could ever have that job. And now I came
Speaker 1: back and got his job and was sitting in his
Speaker 1: in his office and literally, you know, I closed the
Speaker 1: door and I had a moment. I looked up and
Speaker 1: I I felt so great and about and just amazing.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting literally at Brandon's desk looking at the monitors
Speaker 1: on the wall, and then I had this sinking feeling
Speaker 1: that I made a horrible, horrible mistake, which it was
Speaker 1: because the wheels were coming off the momentum it turned.
Speaker 1: I came in telling everybody we need a new breath
Speaker 1: of fresh air, and this place is in trouble. And
Speaker 1: after decades of winning, a lot of the ethos inside
Speaker 1: the building was we know what we're doing, and it
Speaker 1: was a little like who is this guy? And I
Speaker 1: also didn't learn the concept of corporate buy in. You know,
Speaker 1: when you come into a company, really anywhere, you know
Speaker 1: it's not a new different on a team. Know, if
Speaker 1: a coach takes over team, you gotta win over people's
Speaker 1: comment it's like all right, we'll follow you, we'll listen.
Speaker 1: You can't just come in now. Once people are bottomed
Speaker 1: out and are desperate, you got a shot. But until
Speaker 1: that happens. And so I came in thinking things like
Speaker 1: the office like this is exactly what we need to do,
Speaker 1: and just a lot of people were like, no, no,
Speaker 1: we need the next version of that's sexy single girl
Speaker 1: in New York who's lives with some friends, and you're like, no, no,
Speaker 1: we really don't. There was still this sort of thing
Speaker 1: that lived on in the building post friends of you know, no, no,
Speaker 1: we want funny, but they're gonna be sexy too, right,
Speaker 1: I mean we need that, and that had just made
Speaker 1: its way into comedy, which was never part of comedy,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean comedy was like funny period and
Speaker 1: uh so that was still a little bit in the
Speaker 1: wind of like wait a manute, this is a group
Speaker 1: of misfits. So this kind of just seemed like the
Speaker 1: opposite of at least what everyone thought we needed. Well,
Speaker 1: I it's so fascinating the idea of we had this opportunity,
Speaker 1: we were handed this jewel, this great idea, this show
Speaker 1: from London, and everybody just kind of wanted to do
Speaker 1: the best that we could, to do something different, which
Speaker 1: is what you're talking about. You're up against this old
Speaker 1: guard and people who have done it in a certain way.
Speaker 1: And Greg was saying, no, we're gonna have writers. We're
Speaker 1: gonna have writers act in the show right now. We're
Speaker 1: gonna not have a wall that we can move because
Speaker 1: we're a documentary, right and we're going to hire actors
Speaker 1: that are not that are men. Even the stupid debates
Speaker 1: over the Doctor, I had to listen to opinions of
Speaker 1: people saying, you know, Americans associate documentaries with heaviness and
Speaker 1: non commercial it's just an obstructive format to most Americans,
Speaker 1: and you're doing a comedy through that format by its nature,
Speaker 1: and I'm just listening, Oh my god, really, and I'm
Speaker 1: some of these people they were professionals, but I'm just thinking,
Speaker 1: what do you know? And what are you talking? An amount? Right?
Speaker 1: But how confident were you that it could translate to
Speaker 1: a broadcast audience because yeah, at the time, single camera,
Speaker 1: mock documentary, no laugh track, nothing like that was on
Speaker 1: network television. Yeah. What I felt all along for minute
Speaker 1: one is an office comedy is a staple of television. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: the form is different, the tone is certainly different. The
Speaker 1: leads attitude is really different. But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, you're not gonna look at me wanting I
Speaker 1: don't understand what what is it? They're in an office
Speaker 1: And I always clung to that all the way through.
Speaker 1: But it's just one of the things that I just
Speaker 1: loved about it. I love the outpost in the middle
Speaker 1: of nowhere. I love the the boss who's in this island,
Speaker 1: who is free to just run rough shot over everybody,
Speaker 1: And uh, Jim, I can't remember the exact line. Maybe
Speaker 1: you do in the pilot you know where they say,
Speaker 1: you know, describe what you do, and he's like, well,
Speaker 1: what's paper products and processing? And we moved the skids
Speaker 1: into thing And I'm just I'm boring myself as is
Speaker 1: that for me embodied the whole show, you know, like
Speaker 1: we we don't actually even know why we come to
Speaker 1: work or what we really accomplished every day, right, Right?
Speaker 1: So I was told it was the worst testing show
Speaker 1: in the history of NBC. I don't know it was
Speaker 1: the worst testing, but it was. It was bad, the
Speaker 1: worst testing that maybe made it. It was certainly in
Speaker 1: that pack, I mean, of the ones that made it.
Speaker 1: It was. It was really down there, right, So what
Speaker 1: was the idea behind giving five more episodes? Like? Did
Speaker 1: you have to fight to get those five? Yeah? First
Speaker 1: of all, and at this point two things happened through
Speaker 1: the course of the show for me, and I'll give
Speaker 1: you this the first part. At this point, I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: I really think the rebuild of NBC is going to happen,
Speaker 1: and this is going to be one of those pieces.
Speaker 1: And I looked at the rest of the plat of
Speaker 1: stuff we had, which was ship So it's not like
Speaker 1: I go, Wow, I got ten other great things I
Speaker 1: just said, look, this is going to be a slog,
Speaker 1: but this is good, This is just good, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna go with We're gonna start with greatness. And first
Speaker 1: of all, I have noted this before, but for the
Speaker 1: way the stupid pilot screening process used to work at
Speaker 1: these broadcast networks was everybody would fly out, and the
Speaker 1: East Coast guys and the heads of sports and the
Speaker 1: heads of affiliate relations and sales and research and all
Speaker 1: the all the middle aged white guys would fly out
Speaker 1: and sit in the room and you know, tell stories,
Speaker 1: and then you'd rotate around and screen all the pilots,
Speaker 1: and people would rank them and put numbers on them,
Speaker 1: and then you'd come in and debate and decide, and
Speaker 1: you'd have to kind of hear all of that. Now,
Speaker 1: when things are going well and you have a hot
Speaker 1: hand of the present entertainment, you go through that process.
Speaker 1: But they are either not pushing back on you, or
Speaker 1: you have the ability to go, well, that's great, Brian,
Speaker 1: thanks thanks for that. That's fantastic input, and then just
Speaker 1: go ignore it. But when the network starts to get
Speaker 1: on wobbly legs and I had not again established credibility,
Speaker 1: people knew me, they liked me, they're recruited me for job.
Speaker 1: But at this point I seem to be now uh,
Speaker 1: advocating for things that don't look like what they're supposed
Speaker 1: to look like. And this is identified as a problem
Speaker 1: early on, and so that gave other players more power
Speaker 1: to come up and say, let me tell you why
Speaker 1: this isn't gonna work, And then they had the research. Now,
Speaker 1: so we come out of this pilot screening process. In
Speaker 1: every room is giving it, you know, ten is the best. Zero,
Speaker 1: We're going to give it a point five, you know,
Speaker 1: or or one? You know. Well, nobody likes it except
Speaker 1: one room. I go down and honestly, it was the
Speaker 1: only room I was interested in. The room filled with
Speaker 1: the assistance and the associates and all the young people,
Speaker 1: and that was the biggest rumor. Actually they're at like
Speaker 1: forty people in there. And I go in and I said,
Speaker 1: what do you guys think? And I remember they take
Speaker 1: away is this not only is this the best thing
Speaker 1: we've done, it's the only thing we would watch that
Speaker 1: you're making, and it's kind of the only thing we'd
Speaker 1: watch and what currently on the air. And I was like,
Speaker 1: thank you very much, that's all I need to know. Wow,
Speaker 1: And like unequivocally, that room was we are in even
Speaker 1: with the first pilot, still hadn't It hadn't even become
Speaker 1: the show. It was they just because they were it.
Speaker 1: And I knew it was going to be the young
Speaker 1: audience that we're going to cling to, but that meant
Speaker 1: nothing still in selling it. It still wasn't the five
Speaker 1: episodes order. And also Greg, look, Greg had made some
Speaker 1: money on King of the Hill, so he was willing
Speaker 1: if he had if he had fought and said I
Speaker 1: want to, he he cut his rate. He was willing
Speaker 1: to take the shorter order. He could have stood on
Speaker 1: principle and said I'm not doing it. I'm not doing
Speaker 1: six and you know, I'm on a d cents on
Speaker 1: the dollar and that, and then it would have been dead.
Speaker 1: But he he loved it and he was willing to
Speaker 1: take the short And that's really basically all I could
Speaker 1: cobble out was that initial six episode mid season order. Right.
Speaker 1: I love that story. And and a side note, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you don't know this, but like on the set,
Speaker 1: I was the I was kind of the business part,
Speaker 1: Like the business of television really interested me, so we
Speaker 1: aired on Thursday nights or whatever, and we would be
Speaker 1: in the makeup trailer and I would be going through
Speaker 1: the numbers and giving perspective as to why the numbers
Speaker 1: might be where they are, how they were related the
Speaker 1: night before. But March Madness is on right now, so
Speaker 1: it's going to be like that was just that was
Speaker 1: what interested me so well. There certainly wasn't a lot
Speaker 1: of good news in those numbers in those first six episodes.
Speaker 1: It First of all, the network had very little momentum.
Speaker 1: You know, if this were still the days where we
Speaker 1: had big shows, we could have parked it in between.
Speaker 1: It might have been protected. But at this point in
Speaker 1: mid season the network kind of went from bad to worse.
Speaker 1: During the year, we were beginning to just grind down.
Speaker 1: Uh that by the by marches, like people have kind
Speaker 1: of established what they're liking and not liking, and we
Speaker 1: bring the show on and it premier. There were definitely
Speaker 1: there were reviewers that liked it that I claimed out.
Speaker 1: I will say Bill Carter from New York Time from
Speaker 1: minute one, Bill Carter said, this is the best show
Speaker 1: I've seen in years, and I love it and I'm
Speaker 1: in And he was a huge advocate for you. I'm
Speaker 1: Emilia on this podcast. I'm taking you on a search,
Speaker 1: a search for love. Em hard working Latina seeks cool,
Speaker 1: down to earth guy. Swipe swipe slipe. It's hard out
Speaker 1: there for a girl to find Mr Wright. I've to
Speaker 1: meet a lot of Mr Wrongs. He'd invite me over
Speaker 1: to have dinner with his family. I knew he didn't
Speaker 1: tell them that it was transgender. Dating as a trans
Speaker 1: woman can be complicated, but there were other reasons. I
Speaker 1: felt like I couldn't always beat myself. And he's asking
Speaker 1: me things about my family, like my mom's in prison,
Speaker 1: my grandmother was arrested for working with the Mexican drug cartel.
Speaker 1: This scrumbs my love story. It's a show about the
Speaker 1: things we set up for and the bits of ourselves
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Speaker 1: the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. Do
Speaker 1: you think that there was any impact? So after the
Speaker 1: initial six that were given originally, now the ratings were better.
Speaker 1: That second year we had My name is earle Yes,
Speaker 1: that show ended up because that show came out hot.
Speaker 1: We tucked it in behind I remember, and it was
Speaker 1: around Christmas time. I literally was like a Christmas gift
Speaker 1: to me where And you know, we had done the
Speaker 1: deal with Apple if you remember, early on the early
Speaker 1: iPhone ads or iTunes ads rather featured it in the stores.
Speaker 1: And then Steve had had the movie It hit. So
Speaker 1: I'm saying, wait, wait a minute, here, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: we're getting a little Steve's now becoming a thing. And
Speaker 1: look at that where iTunes is going to be a thing,
Speaker 1: and we're they like us, and we're starting to get
Speaker 1: little pockets of support and people are starting to talk
Speaker 1: about it. And I remember waking up and at this
Speaker 1: point I'm really beginning to be on the ropes. And
Speaker 1: I wake up one morning in like um going into
Speaker 1: the holidays, and the show actually grew, It actually grew
Speaker 1: and its stabilized. It was a respectable rating, and I
Speaker 1: honestly I think I don't admit it, but I might
Speaker 1: have teared up. I mean I really might have teared up. Right.
Speaker 1: We were certainly at the time, I mean when we
Speaker 1: was sort of like this this confluence of events, as
Speaker 1: you said with forty year old virgin Um. Suddenly there's
Speaker 1: Apple stores and our pictures are are on these new
Speaker 1: things called, you know, the iPod video, and we're suddenly
Speaker 1: the number one show on iTunes. I feel like from
Speaker 1: the beginning you had the foresight that you know, the
Speaker 1: way that that ratings happened with the Nielsen boxes. They're
Speaker 1: looking at households. No one's looking at colleges, no one's
Speaker 1: looking at dorms in college. There was the larger thing
Speaker 1: of what I felt culturally is it was the canary
Speaker 1: in the coal mine for where we are today. Look,
Speaker 1: there's always been a generational turning of the page where
Speaker 1: you know, the young people are want the next thing.
Speaker 1: I could see that happening with just the sensibility. But
Speaker 1: then something that really the powers that we were passing
Speaker 1: by is the platform it's self, the viewing experience itself.
Speaker 1: It ended up being a really smart thing, like you
Speaker 1: know what, let's get out in front with this thing
Speaker 1: that seems to be where it's headed, and that's where
Speaker 1: young people wanted to see it. Well, also that you
Speaker 1: put it on my Space the week before it premiered,
Speaker 1: like you were already using whatever platform we could get
Speaker 1: it out on and just or you know, either legally
Speaker 1: or illegally. I don't even know where it was getting
Speaker 1: passed around, but it was clear something was happening. Um,
Speaker 1: so you talk about iTunes, you know, the video iPod
Speaker 1: on this Christmas episode and it's the first one that
Speaker 1: goes over ten million. There was something else that happened
Speaker 1: during this time, the webisodes, the original online content on NBC. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and again we these were early days of you know,
Speaker 1: this webisode thing was starting to bubble up, and some
Speaker 1: shows were doing the mostly really pretty lame to be honest,
Speaker 1: but then ours actually weren't lame, right. We did the
Speaker 1: The Accountants, which was Oscar and Angela and um, and
Speaker 1: they were becoming a thing and ended up winning and yeah,
Speaker 1: which was that was another amazing thing, and so that
Speaker 1: this kind of content wasn't crappy ancillary thing. In fact,
Speaker 1: Greg would have now never allowed it to happen because
Speaker 1: he just wouldn't. He just wouldn't endorse that, but the
Speaker 1: fact that you're like, wow, these things are really good
Speaker 1: and people love these and it's becoming a way to
Speaker 1: stay attached to that, And I just I couldn't nobody
Speaker 1: could have really predicted that the changes that ultimately came.
Speaker 1: The weird thing for me having been at NBC and
Speaker 1: good Go Back, in my heart of hearts, I still
Speaker 1: believed and it is, you know, NBC, I mean network television.
Speaker 1: The year I started in it came or came out
Speaker 1: here to get into show If You Go Back, was
Speaker 1: the first year that the Wall Street analysts were beginning
Speaker 1: to clear network television the dinosaur. So it's death had
Speaker 1: been premier for you because cable was statistically on the rise.
Speaker 1: Now obviously decades and decades and decades of billions of
Speaker 1: dollars and tremendous cultural impact was created. So I still
Speaker 1: believed that this platform of NBC, which it did, was
Speaker 1: still a great place to nurture incredible television. With that said,
Speaker 1: I think the powers that were there still were believing
Speaker 1: that it was just one show away from coming back,
Speaker 1: And in my heart, I said, guys, it's never coming back.
Speaker 1: That was the thing that I knew it is never
Speaker 1: going to be what it was, and you have to
Speaker 1: find what that new thing is and this show is
Speaker 1: built for that. Whatever that new thing is, this show
Speaker 1: is built for that. But even the tone, the scrappy,
Speaker 1: kind of like bleak looking doc you that tone allowed
Speaker 1: you to then make a webisode out of it. Some
Speaker 1: shows you in a webisode you're like, well, that's not
Speaker 1: the drama I watched, and that's so that's really cheap,
Speaker 1: bad version. Well, this just felt very organic that, like,
Speaker 1: well we make it the same way we make the
Speaker 1: show right, right, right, right, And that felt very viral
Speaker 1: and very you know, of the web. And again we
Speaker 1: were just fumbling our way through, but you got the
Speaker 1: young audience. They just knew it and caught on and
Speaker 1: so that's why it thrived, and that's what ultimately, the
Speaker 1: culture and the landscape has caught up for this thing
Speaker 1: to then just have this next surge of life. Right,
Speaker 1: So you were talking about I'm gonna show you a
Speaker 1: picture from August September of two thousand and six. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have that picture of my office. Yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: a picture of Kevin being picked up by Rain and
Speaker 1: John Um and the look on your face and us
Speaker 1: winning the Primetime Emmy for Best Comedy and a night
Speaker 1: and what a night, and just your courage too to
Speaker 1: have stuck with the show and getting recognized now for
Speaker 1: that have been pretty special, amazing. You know that that
Speaker 1: that expression on my face is for me because I
Speaker 1: did ultimately get fired so to save my job, but
Speaker 1: I will say that it Uh, you know, I got
Speaker 1: into this business all I ever want to do as
Speaker 1: a kid. I no idea what it was. I didn't
Speaker 1: even know how to get in. I didn't even know
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. But those are the kind
Speaker 1: of moments that are rare where you're going, we're doing
Speaker 1: good work with good people, and they're all doing it
Speaker 1: for the right reasons, and you know that like defying
Speaker 1: the odds and then having that moment of recognition with
Speaker 1: people who are also then so gracious. Look, I've worked
Speaker 1: with really talented people who some people are really talent,
Speaker 1: they're not so great, and this was just a really
Speaker 1: special thing. You know that. The tricky thing about Joe
Speaker 1: business is a lot of times, uh, you know, you
Speaker 1: don't want to meet your heroes because what goes on
Speaker 1: behind the cameras is not really what you pictured that
Speaker 1: group of people to be in this case. I think
Speaker 1: it really was, you know, I mean for the most part.
Speaker 1: And I would have to say like, yeah, yeah, well
Speaker 1: you the love and respect that everyone who I talked
Speaker 1: too comes into this room for you and your fight
Speaker 1: to keep it on the air, and we all believe
Speaker 1: being responsible for us having done over two episodes, that's
Speaker 1: a legacy. I think that. Well, well it's so it's
Speaker 1: you know, life is full of ironies, you know, and
Speaker 1: I was always proud of it. It did go on
Speaker 1: to stay on the air, but NBC then you know,
Speaker 1: they had then invited me to no longer do that job.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, there were crop of shows I
Speaker 1: put on that I was proud of, you know, the
Speaker 1: thirty Rocks and Front Night Lights were on there. Here's
Speaker 1: we had a crop of good shows that kind of
Speaker 1: for the next ten years. You know, this is the
Speaker 1: thing about the Office, you know, the show that that
Speaker 1: you know was going to be a real problem was
Speaker 1: one of the only things that endured that was worth
Speaker 1: hanging onto through that really brutal time for that organization,
Speaker 1: and and everyone kind of felt like, wow, great run,
Speaker 1: great show, Let's move on. And then you get this
Speaker 1: crazy moment in time where that Canary in the Coal
Speaker 1: Mine really happened, which is the show that was ahead
Speaker 1: of its time with the young people who said that's
Speaker 1: the only thing we're gonna watch. Now there's a new
Speaker 1: platform called subscription video on demand, and it finds its
Speaker 1: way to that platform, and those people are now in
Speaker 1: their forties, and there's new people coming up discovering it
Speaker 1: for the first time. And this thing has this crazy
Speaker 1: way bigger now than it was at any point. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard this figure, um, something
Speaker 1: like fifty two point three billion with a b minutes
Speaker 1: streamed on Netflix alone and by pretty much any metric
Speaker 1: that I can figure out, the most watch show in
Speaker 1: television right now, and we haven't filmed in five to six.
Speaker 1: Finally finally won the title, right, It's crazy. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: finally ended up in the place where it was kind
Speaker 1: of meant to be. All along, Kevin, thank you again.
Speaker 1: It's so good to see. It's great city crossed me.
Speaker 1: I could I could do two more hours? Oh well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Al Right, guys, Sadly we have
Speaker 1: to say goodbye to Kevin because he has to get
Speaker 1: back to I don't know, saving the next best show
Speaker 1: on television. Probably Now I have to tell you this.
Speaker 1: I wanted to wait till the end. I had not
Speaker 1: seen Kevin Riley in many, many years when he sat
Speaker 1: down with me to do this interview, and I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure how it was going to go all right. I
Speaker 1: didn't know how willing he would be to talk about
Speaker 1: the show. But at the end I could not have
Speaker 1: been happier and more touched by his openness, his generosity,
Speaker 1: and his willingness truly to go back to that time
Speaker 1: in his life. So thank you, Kevin for taking the
Speaker 1: time and for being so thoughtful. Um I look forward
Speaker 1: to seeing you again very soon. To the rest of you,
Speaker 1: thank you for listening. I appreciate it, and we will. Oh.
Speaker 1: I promise you this. We will be back next week,
Speaker 1: So come join me the office. Deep Dive is hosted
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive
Speaker 1: producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer
Speaker 1: is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and
Speaker 1: our assistant editor is d A. Goo Topia. My main
Speaker 1: man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton,
Speaker 1: and the episode was mixed by Seth o Landscape. Adoption
Speaker 1: of teams from foster care is a topic not enough
Speaker 1: people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm
Speaker 1: April Dinnuity, host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented
Speaker 1: by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real
Speaker 1: life adoption stories told by the families that lived them,
Speaker 1: with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org,
Speaker 1: slash podcast, or subscribe to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt
Speaker 1: Us Kids, brought to you by the U. S Department
Speaker 1: of Health, that Human Services Administration for Children and Families,
Speaker 1: and the ad Council. I'm Emilia on this podcast, I'm
Speaker 1: taking you on a search, a search for love, hard
Speaker 1: working Latina, but there were other reasons I felt like
Speaker 1: I couldn't always beat myself. My mom's in prison. This
Speaker 1: is Crumbs, my love story. It's a show about the
Speaker 1: things we set up for and the bits of ourselves
Speaker 1: that make us who we are. Listen to Crumbs on
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hello, this is Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher.
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