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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. The most precious memories

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Speaker 1: that I have probably involved my grandmother's kitchen. I can

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Speaker 1: still see it in my mind's eye. My grandmother and

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Speaker 1: grandfather were not wealthy people. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: they would probably be classified as lower middle class today.

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Speaker 1: They lived in a little, old ramshackled house.

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 1: Windy in the house. You could hear the wind coming in.

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Speaker 1: It was hot in the summertime, cold in the wintertime.

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Speaker 1: But the one thing that my grandmother had was a

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Speaker 1: fabulous kitchen. For a house like this, big stove, big oven.

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Speaker 1: There was always something being prepared in that house. And

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Speaker 1: you know, even when it was cold in the wintertime,

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Speaker 1: you could always seek out warmth and comfort in that kitchen.

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Speaker 1: There were even times I remember she would leave the

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Speaker 1: oven door open with the oven going and you could

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Speaker 1: feel the heat off of it. I still have visions

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Speaker 1: of my grandfather lighting his camel cigarettes off of the stovetop.

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Speaker 1: But there was a certain amount of joy the smells

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Speaker 1: that came out of that kitchen. The food was incredible.

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Speaker 1: Nobody will ever cook like my grandmother. I'll argue that

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Speaker 1: point till the day I die, But So much of

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Speaker 1: our life is tied up in food, in nourishment, in

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Speaker 1: the comfort that comes along not just from the taking

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Speaker 1: on of the food, but I think also those that

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Speaker 1: love us, their love is transmitted through that food the

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Speaker 1: care that goes into it. And today on Body Bags,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a young man who was

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Speaker 1: totally and completely dependent upon a love that did not exist,

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Speaker 1: and nourishment that existed but was denied. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the starvation death of a fifteen year old boy.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. Don't

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Speaker 1: know about you, Dave, but I think for me, my

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Speaker 1: grandma's recipe for fried chicken was probably the best I've

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Speaker 1: ever encountered. I still have memories of seeing her place

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Speaker 1: chicken parts into brown paper bags with gold metal flour

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Speaker 1: with the right combination of Louisiana spices and shaking this

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Speaker 1: bag up every day it seemed like we had fried

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Speaker 1: chicken or something like that, and smell that came from

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Speaker 1: it and the tape. It was never dry, it was

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Speaker 1: always moist and juicy, and the crust was perfect. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you have a memory like that from childhood.

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Speaker 1: I certainly do.

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Speaker 3: Even I have no memories of anything right now. I'm starving, salivating.

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Speaker 3: That's all you done, Pole Love's Dog. You mentioned food,

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Speaker 3: I salivate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I take me to a buffet and I will eat

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Speaker 3: until they have to roll me to the juicing room

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Speaker 3: at Wonka's factory.

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Speaker 1: You know. Oh my gosh, Yeah, I can identify with that.

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Speaker 2: It's like a huge deal, and.

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Speaker 1: It certainly is. And we get comfort from it, don't we.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think we do. Yeah, I think we do.

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Speaker 3: You and I could see here and share good fun

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Speaker 3: memories of growing up and food and things like that

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Speaker 3: to avoid talking about this horrible story what happened to

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Speaker 3: fifteen year old Timothy Ferguson. Fifteen year old Timothy Ferguson

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Speaker 3: was murdered by his mother by starving him, and by

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Speaker 3: the way, not just starving hypothermia. She would take her

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Speaker 3: own flesh and blood Timothy Ferguson. The boy weighed sixty

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Speaker 3: five pounds at fifteen years old, and the only thing

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Speaker 3: he had to eat was a piece of bread and

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Speaker 3: hot sauce, and then she would stick them in an

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Speaker 3: ice bath. Now, if that's not the type of torture

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Speaker 3: that deserves the worst punishment we can come up with.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what it is.

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Speaker 1: Let me add one element to that, because you mentioned

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Speaker 1: being denied food, which is all part and parcel first

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Speaker 1: off of malnutrition that ultimately starvation. There's a difference between

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Speaker 1: those two things, and we'll explore them. But you know, Dave,

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Speaker 1: there was another element to it. Can we imagine food

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Speaker 1: being used as in many times and this is really

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Speaker 1: unhealthy as a reward and we get comfort from it,

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Speaker 1: many of us, we take it to an extreme. I

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Speaker 1: know I have. But can you imagine food being used

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Speaker 1: actively as a punishment? And what I mean by that

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Speaker 1: is taking an element of something that is marketed as

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Speaker 1: being ingestible, but yet an individual would derive so much

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Speaker 1: pain from that. And what I'm talking about is the

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Speaker 1: torture of not just an ice bath or deprivation of

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Speaker 1: access to food. I'm talking about actually using the ultimate

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Speaker 1: hot sauce in order to subject him to in order

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Speaker 1: to elicit pain from him. So you've got this weird

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Speaker 1: thing that's working here in this environment where you've got

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Speaker 1: a kid who, by the way, has some developmental issues.

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Speaker 2: What do we know about that disability?

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Speaker 1: Well, what we do know is that he was apparently

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Speaker 1: completely totally dependent upon her kindness. And I'm always fascinated

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Speaker 1: by cases of abuse like this. Well yeah, well, whether

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Speaker 1: or not she's going to choose to give him kindness,

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Speaker 1: and isn't that interesting? That's an interesting thing to consider

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Speaker 1: the degree to which she is. It's ill vinegar and

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Speaker 1: sugar principle, where you fit you feed somebody a steady

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Speaker 1: diet of vinegar, and when they just get a little

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Speaker 1: taste of sugar, you think that it's the entire world,

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Speaker 1: you know, And that happens with abusers lots of times,

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Speaker 1: because they can do great harm to individuals, and suddenly

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Speaker 1: when an act of kindness is extended, it seems like

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Speaker 1: the individuals won the lottery. Suddenly they've got the approval

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Speaker 1: of this monster that they're having to share a home with.

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Speaker 1: And that's really what I mean by kindness in this circumstance,

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Speaker 1: because it's you have this precious life that has been

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Speaker 1: given to you that you have charge over, but yet

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Speaker 1: you're going to deny them access to things that are basic.

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Speaker 1: You know, we learned this, I don't know what was

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Speaker 1: it in freshman sociology class, you know, where you learn

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Speaker 1: Maslow's hierarchy, you know, just the basic you know, those

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Speaker 1: basic things. I see you smiling right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I suffered those classes.

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Speaker 1: Well I did too, I did two. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's really the one thing that I retained out of

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Speaker 1: there was Maslow's hierarchy of needs. With this being said

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Speaker 1: about the choices that have been made in regards to

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Speaker 1: Shanda vander Ark, those choices that she made relative to

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Speaker 1: her son, this fifteen year old, it gave me pause

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Speaker 1: from a mechanism standpoint as a forensic scientist, to begin

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Speaker 1: to think about. You know, we talked about homicide all

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Speaker 1: the time on the show. You know, we talk about

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Speaker 1: homicide more so than any other manner of death, and

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Speaker 1: there are two types out there. I think that you

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Speaker 1: can have people that commit homicide, which merely by definition

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Speaker 1: is nothing more than it's different than saying murder. It

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Speaker 1: is death at the hand of another. You're not assigning blame.

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Speaker 1: That's the idea of the clinical nature of that term homicide.

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Speaker 1: But death at the hand of another. When you think

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Speaker 1: about the types of homicides that there are, I think,

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Speaker 1: in a big category here you have things that are

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Speaker 1: it's almost like the old idea of sense of omission

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Speaker 1: versus sins of comission. When you have a homicide, you

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Speaker 1: can have an actual passive type of homicide, which I

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Speaker 1: think we're dealing with here. You know, the mechanism that's

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Speaker 1: being utilized is deprivation of basic needs, and or you

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Speaker 1: can have this active, this active track that an individual

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Speaker 1: can go down, and that's any kind of trauma that

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Speaker 1: may lead to someone's death, like shoot, bludgeoning, stabbing. And

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Speaker 1: that's not what happened here. When Shanda vander Arc decided

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Speaker 1: to keep her fifteen year old son sequestered, locked away

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Speaker 1: and literally in a house of horrors. That term gets

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Speaker 1: thrown around a lot in media, but this was for

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Speaker 1: this child, this fifteen year old child, a house of horrors.

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Speaker 1: When you begin to think about this, this was probably

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Speaker 1: the single most unmerciful way to bring aback another human

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Speaker 1: being's death. You have an expectation when you have kids,

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Speaker 1: when you see them through their normal masaturation through life.

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Speaker 1: You know from the moment that they're an infant till

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Speaker 1: the time that you know no longer your responsibility. You

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Speaker 1: see this physical development that happens in them. And I

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Speaker 1: was looking back and doing a little research and you know,

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Speaker 1: with a fifteen year old boy, you have an expectation

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Speaker 1: that that kid is probably on the low end going

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Speaker 1: to be and a lot of its height dependent nutritional issues.

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Speaker 1: But under quote unquote normal circumstances, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: a child that the average weight for a sixteen year old,

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old, it's going to be about one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty three pounds. That was certainly not the case

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Speaker 1: with this kid. Timothy weighed sixty one pounds at at

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Speaker 1: his autopsy. That's how little he weighed. And it's really

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me that this was allowed to go on

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Speaker 1: for so long and that she flew under the radar.

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Speaker 1: And I think a lot of it had to do

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Speaker 1: with her legal background. She fled from Oklahoma, wound up

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Speaker 1: in Michigan, and she knew, you know, how to kind

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Speaker 1: of shuck and job with the system and stay below

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Speaker 1: the radar. And boy did she ever. She really facilitated

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Speaker 1: this home that they were in, dwelling to meet her

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Speaker 1: to meet her ends, which were completely and totally evil.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you pointed out that she knew how to

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Speaker 3: fly into the radar. If you've never been through the

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Speaker 3: homeschooling process. You don't know what it takes. It's not

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Speaker 3: as simple as sending a letter to the elementary or

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Speaker 3: high school or whatever and say I've decided to teach

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Speaker 3: my children at home.

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Speaker 2: Leave me alone.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't cut it, because there are rules and regulations

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Speaker 3: in every state is a little bit different. She knew

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Speaker 3: enough to fly under the radar to keep her child

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Speaker 3: in homeschool. I'm curious as to her older son, Paul.

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Speaker 3: He was nineteen when this came to an end. But

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Speaker 3: was he homeschooled also or did he actually attend school?

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Speaker 3: Timpothy was fifteen when he died. He I mean, Paul

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Speaker 3: is only four years older than older.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've.

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Speaker 3: Got a child who has been abused for many years.

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Speaker 3: He's not being abused by just his mother. Paul is

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Speaker 3: involved in this as well. Whether he's doing it at

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Speaker 3: the direction of his mother for fear for his life,

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Speaker 3: or whether he enjoyed it and was piling on don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think that once an individual is in a sequestered environment,

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Speaker 1: it's rife for abuse to take place. Look, I got

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Speaker 1: to tell you all, my kids were homeschool quite successfully.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, with my son. We had

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Speaker 1: to be adherent, and he went and was co taught

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Speaker 1: with a group of other homeschoolers and had exposure to many,

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Speaker 1: many things that we facilitated. But to the degree that

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Speaker 1: whoever driving the ship, it can be a glorious thing

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Speaker 1: or it can be an absolute horror show, which in

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Speaker 1: Timothy's circumstances it turned out to be because you can

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Speaker 1: control what is going to occur. Listen, if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're in an environment, and this happens with abusers a lot,

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Speaker 1: it happens in many ways. If you're going to abuse

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Speaker 1: a child, the idea is that you want to keep

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Speaker 1: them out of sight because any physical changes that might

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Speaker 1: occur over the course of a year or maybe day

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Speaker 1: to day, if they're if they're being suffering from impact injuries.

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Speaker 1: For instance, what.

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Speaker 2: Do you mean by impact injuries, Well.

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Speaker 1: If they're if they're being slapped around, punched, kicked. You

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Speaker 1: see this with people that are trying to essentially keep

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Speaker 1: the kids away from the rest of the public. They'll

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Speaker 1: even keep them away from immediate family members. That's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that abusers many times hospital shop as well,

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Speaker 1: which means that if a child is injured, they will

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Speaker 1: not go to the same treatment facility in order to

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Speaker 1: seek care for a child, because if you put two

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Speaker 1: and two together, Uh, then by seeing the same clinician

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Speaker 1: every time, they're going to say, hey, there's something up here,

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Speaker 1: and they're going to report it. But this is a

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Speaker 1: completely different thing that we're dynamic.

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Speaker 3: Is it different that only one of the three children

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Speaker 3: seems to be the victim of his mother?

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Speaker 1: No, that happens with great frequency. Yeah, yeah, out one,

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Speaker 1: picking out one and using the others to help facilitate

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Speaker 1: these circumstances. Wow, And that's that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: that that makes it worse. Yeah, it does, because you're

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Speaker 1: you're looking for mercy hopefully if you're the victim, they're

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Speaker 1: they're holding out hope that maybe one of their siblings

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Speaker 1: will you know, ride in and be the hero and

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Speaker 1: help maybe give them some relief, maybe get them some food.

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Speaker 1: And here's the problem with Timothy's case is that unlike

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Speaker 1: you know, if say, for instance, he was sustaining impact

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Speaker 1: injuries and he was still out in public going that's

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Speaker 1: something that you can kind of guide the child along

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Speaker 1: if you're the abuser, to keep them under the radar

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Speaker 1: with this. Once you start them down this road of

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Speaker 1: malnutrition and starvation. Day. There's no hiding in this because

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Speaker 1: suddenly you have a face that's the cheeks are sunken,

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Speaker 1: the eyes are sunken, they have a pallor the color

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Speaker 1: to their skin almost becomes ashen. The skin actually changes

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Speaker 1: in its texture. It becomes almost like parchment paper. Many

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Speaker 1: times it's easily torn and insulted just by bumping into things.

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Speaker 1: That's one of the consequences of malnutrition, because with malnutrition

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Speaker 1: comes dehydration, and so you've got that working as well.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell what this has been going on for

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Speaker 3: a number of years or I'm just curious because Timothy

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Speaker 3: was fifteen years old when he died. Was this something

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Speaker 3: that can was active in his life from birth or

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Speaker 3: was this something that just happened in the last two

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Speaker 3: or three years. We know she got in trouble in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 3: But was he living a normal life? I guess is

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Speaker 3: what I'm up to until he's ten, and then from

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Speaker 3: the last five years of his life it went bad.

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Speaker 2: Is there any way to determine when the abuse began?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I think that there is one. And here's

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Speaker 1: the big component to this. It's a problem it's something

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Speaker 1: we have to do in forensics a lot. These are

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Speaker 1: called retroactive investigations where we go back with a child

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Speaker 1: in particular, we will subpoena all of their medical records,

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Speaker 1: even from a very young age. And do you remember

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Speaker 1: when your kids were young, Dave, and you would go

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Speaker 1: to the pediatrician. I know that I got a lot

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Speaker 1: of moms in the audience right now and you remember this,

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Speaker 1: going to the pediatrician. And even from the time that

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Speaker 1: they're babies, they begin to take measurements on the chouldren

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Speaker 1: They'll do it's referred to as a crown diameter. They'll

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Speaker 1: do the crown what's called the crown rump length. They'll

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Speaker 1: do the crown heal length. They'll measure the abdomen. This

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Speaker 1: is when they're little babies, just to see the developmental

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Speaker 1: distribution of the child, how the child is presenting. And

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Speaker 1: as the child goes matures, they get weighed, their height

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Speaker 1: is taken. So one of the keys here and one

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Speaker 1: of the things that can happen with malnutrition over a

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Speaker 1: protracted period of time, with a development with a child

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Speaker 1: that's developing, is if you deny basic needs like food

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Speaker 1: in particular, you're going to and this seems like something

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Speaker 1: that comes from another generation, but it's true. Their growth

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Speaker 1: will be stunted. Okay, you're going to stunt your growth

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Speaker 1: if you don't eat. You know, that's something that you

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Speaker 1: would hear from my grandmother's generation. They will not be

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Speaker 1: on par with the others in their group relative to

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Speaker 1: how tall they are, for instance. And you know weight

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Speaker 1: can vary from person to person, but when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about a child that weighs sixty one pounds when he died,

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Speaker 1: I think that our big takeaway here is that this

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Speaker 1: is something that had been going on for a protracted

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Speaker 1: period of time. I don't think that this child had

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Speaker 1: ever been in a healthy environment. Starvation is not something

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Speaker 1: that just occurs overnight. It's something that is a long

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Speaker 1: term event where the individual that is perpetrating this and

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Speaker 1: trust me, this was perpetrated on Timothy. This is something

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Speaker 1: that the perpetrator has to take an active view of

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Speaker 1: and they have to actively engage in it. And what

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Speaker 1: they're engaging in is denial of those basic means that

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Speaker 1: he had as human being. It's a tough thing when

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Speaker 1: you have kids that have special needs and they require

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Speaker 1: a bit more care perhaps, certainly, if you're a caretaker,

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Speaker 1: you have to extend a lot of mercy in those circumstances,

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Speaker 1: and it can be very, very frustrating.

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Speaker 3: The defense trying to come up with a reason for

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Speaker 3: why Shanda vander Art did these things to her, and

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Speaker 3: she claims to have no memory of most of it,

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Speaker 3: by the way, which is so convenient for her. But

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Speaker 3: they claim that it really got bad for her when

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Speaker 3: her husband suffered a stroke. He was already a wheelchair

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Speaker 3: bound and then he had a stroke. He the husband

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Speaker 3: ended up moving in with his parents. Now, when I

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Speaker 3: was first looking at this, it made it sound like

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Speaker 3: the whole family moved in with her with his parents.

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Speaker 2: That's not it.

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Speaker 3: She didn't have to take care of her husband in

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Speaker 3: a wheelchair, with his other issues.

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Speaker 2: His parents did.

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Speaker 1: Jesus.

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Speaker 3: That is the defense. Oh, I was just overburdened with

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Speaker 3: my husband. She claimed PTSD from him having a stroke.

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Speaker 3: They gave her the full mental exam and came back

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Speaker 3: with she knew exactly what she was doing when she

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Speaker 3: did it. When it happened, she was in control of

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Speaker 3: her thoughts and ideas. She's not crazy. Put her on trial,

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Speaker 3: you know, just to clear it up. So to finish

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Speaker 3: up Timothy Ferguson autistic with some speech and motor impairment.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well crimea river is what I would have to

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Speaker 1: say to her and to her defense team. The whole

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Speaker 1: idea of blocking memories and all this sort of stuff. Well,

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Speaker 1: how much do you have blocked out? Because this is

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Speaker 1: a daily exercise, Dave, Let me just say this, this

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Speaker 1: process that Timothy is going through, there's a term that

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Speaker 1: we use. If you ever hear the word or the

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Speaker 1: prefix auto, auto means self and so in Timothy's case,

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Speaker 1: he was going through a condition which is apophagy. And

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Speaker 1: autophogy is I'll just put it to you this way.

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Speaker 1: It is the digestion, the digestion of your own tissues

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Speaker 1: by your body, because what had happened any fat stores

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Speaker 1: that this child may have had on board. We carry

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Speaker 1: around a healthy amount of fat in our body. There's

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Speaker 1: an obsession with people wanting to get down to low

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Speaker 1: percentages with body weight. Fat is actually good for us

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Speaker 1: because it is an energy store. And when you are

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Speaker 1: not replenishing that energy store that goes to long term,

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Speaker 1: long term fuel for your body, then your body is

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Speaker 1: craving to feed itself and what happens is if this child, Timothy,

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Speaker 1: was already compromised from the perspective of his motor impairment

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Speaker 1: that he had, which means that he could probably not

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Speaker 1: amulate real well, couldn't move perhaps very well, couldn't take

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Speaker 1: care of basic necessities like go to the bathroom, those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. And you put this autophogy in the mix.

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Speaker 1: He's already compromised where his muscles themselves are already weakened,

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Speaker 1: greatly weakened by virtue of this condition that he has,

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Speaker 1: and then you have his body's need to try to survive,

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Speaker 1: so it starts eating. It's on tissue. My god, this

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Speaker 1: is a perfect storm for this child to literally waste away.

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Speaker 1: When the images of Timothy are so striking that the

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Speaker 1: court was exposed to in this case because one of

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Speaker 1: the things that you really notice, and I urge anybody

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Speaker 1: that has not seen these images if you go back

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Speaker 1: to you can see them to a certain degree with

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Speaker 1: Holocaust survivors. But Matthew Brady from a Civil War era

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Speaker 1: took these incredible images of these guys that escaped the

359
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Speaker 1: Andersonville prison camp outside of America's Georgia, and Dave, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that really stands out regarding these guys

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Speaker 1: is how pronounced their knee joints, are, their pelvises, their ribs,

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Speaker 1: and you can he took these images nude to have

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Speaker 1: a cloth over their private area, but they took these

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Speaker 1: images and it's so striking you can you can almost

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Speaker 1: visualize death. And I find it really interesting that, you know, death,

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Speaker 1: death is commonly portrayed in literature as grim reaper, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, skeleton, and it's almost like death is sitting

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Speaker 1: on the shoulder of these people the entire time. And

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Speaker 1: that's what was going on with Timothy.

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Speaker 3: Well, tell me about what he was eating. What kind

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Speaker 3: of food was he getting, Joe.

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Speaker 1: Have you heard the old term the only you're going

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Speaker 1: to get is bread and water.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He would occasionally get water and then he would get bread.

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Speaker 1: And the problem with bread is bread is loaded carbohydrates,

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Speaker 1: and it is a short term solution to nutrition. All right,

378
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Speaker 1: you burn those those carbs up really really quickly. But

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Speaker 1: for long term sustainability, and what we're talking about is

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Speaker 1: the proper functioning of your organs. One of the major

381
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Speaker 1: problems that you have with malnourishment is that people will

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Speaker 1: develop severe cardiac problems, and a lot of that goes

383
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Speaker 1: back to, well, everything goes back to the absence of sustainability,

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Speaker 1: whether it be vitamin uptake or whether it be something

385
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Speaker 1: that has more fat in it that is going to

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Speaker 1: give you long term sustainability. If you give somebody a

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Speaker 1: slice of bread, and that is a real thing where

388
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: you see see these examples of people that have lived

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00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: on bread and water alone, and they just they're completely diminished.

390
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 1: That's what he was being subjected to. But Dave, here's

391
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: the thing. This child, this handicapped child who was at

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Speaker 1: the mercy of his mother and his brother. By the way,

393
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Speaker 1: not only was he denied anything of real substance to

394
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Speaker 1: sustain himself on, he was also if you can imagine

395
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: this being tortured with hot sauce. Now just let that

396
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. So your body is screaming,

397
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: feed me, feed me, feed me. And everything you see

398
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: before you that is edible in some things that aren't.

399
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Speaker 1: I've had I've had children that were living off of

400
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: dirty diapers in cases before eating mop strings. Anything looks good,

401
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: all right, looks like it will sustain you. Imagine for

402
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: that moment in time, I don't care how compromised he

403
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: might be if he's autistic, like they're saying, he still

404
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: has a need for nutrients and his body is screaming

405
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: out for this and you're handing him this piece of bread.

406
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: But what you've done with the bread is that you

407
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: have you have saturated this bread and hot sauce. And Dave,

408
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 1: it's not just any hot sauce. It's Carolina Reaper hot sauce.

409
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Speaker 1: And if anybody within the sound of my voice has

410
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: ever been to a mall somewhere and they have the

411
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: hot sauce shops where you can go in and you

412
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: can be brave enough to take a chip and they'll

413
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: put these different hot sauces on there and you taste it,

414
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: and they'll take it up the scale, you know, and

415
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: it's based on what are called Scoville units relative to

416
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: the heat. I'll give you. For instance, if you have

417
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: ever had a Tabasco pepper, cayenne or Jilipino pepper, they're

418
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: at what it's measured on the Scoville scale. They're measured

419
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: at about thirty thousand on the Scoville scale. So get

420
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: that in your mind. Just think about what hot sauce

421
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 1: might taste like. Okay, Carolina reapers are at one point

422
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: five million to two million on the Scoville scale. So

423
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't that she kicked it up a degree from

424
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: Jilipinos that would be bad enough to feed somebody that's malnourished.

425
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: It's that she went to the extreme. This is arguably,

426
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: and I know that there are officionados out there that

427
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: will probably tangle with me over, but this is arguably

428
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: the hottest substance that you can go out and purchase

429
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: and then place on something to eat. So here he is.

430
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: If you can imagine your body screaming, it's digesting itself,

431
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: probably developing bed sores as well. Because anytime, and this

432
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: is kind of a little aside, anytime you have somebody

433
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: that has malnourished, fat also has energy stores for us.

434
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: But you know it acts as a cushion too, for

435
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: our bodies if you have no barrier other than just

436
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: this thin skin and atrophied muscle between you and bone,

437
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: and you stay in one position, which he was held

438
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: under the staircase in a little room and locked away

439
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: under their dave.

440
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 2: Was he in there for days or do they let

441
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: him out periodically?

442
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: They would let him out and then when and because

443
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: he had to be in an adult diaper. Matter of fact,

444
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: the last image that they saw and she had the

445
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: house wired with CCTV dave and so there is actually

446
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: an image of her dragging him along on the floor

447
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: and he is still breathing, but he's out of it.

448
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: And it is claimed in court that you bear witness

449
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: to that last moment when his chest rises and falls

450
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: he literally dies on camera.

451
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 3: There was one thing that was actually shown too, where

452
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: he was breathing through his mouth. And as I was

453
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: looking over the case, you've explained the things that we

454
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 3: do in our final stages as we're dying, those breaths

455
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 3: that aren't really breath it's just something your body is doing.

456
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 3: But he was breathing through his mouth and they were

457
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: short the way, it was explaining court, like a fish

458
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 3: out of water trying to get air right. And his mother,

459
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: if you can call her that, she sees this on

460
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 3: the camera and goes in there to his little hovel

461
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: which you mentioned under the stairs. It's a small closet

462
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 3: like place that is underneath the staircase, and she grabs

463
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: his mouth and all the time talking down to him,

464
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: and closes his mouth shut and tells him, breathe through

465
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: your nose. See, you can do that, you dummy. The

466
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 3: reason that's one of the reasons I kind of questioned

467
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: the claim of his autistic whatever issues they claim he had,

468
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: because the way she talked to him, she talked to

469
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: him is somebody who understood things at a different level

470
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: than what it appears. But anyway, she held his mouth closed,

471
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: make him breathe through his nose as he was dying.

472
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that image that's conjured up of a fish

473
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: laying up on a dock and the mouth and the

474
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: gills are opening and you can't breathe. It would have

475
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: been a struggle for him to breathe. Every breath would

476
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: have been a labor for him, because, yeah, we have

477
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: the autonomic nervous system that controls our breathing and our heartbeat,

478
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: but it's so labor, Dave. The lungs would be heavy,

479
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: probably to a great degree, because they would be so

480
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: highly congested for him struggling in this environment. And to

481
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: make matters, if this could get and I don't see

482
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: how it could, but it can, I'm going to go there.

483
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: As part of punishment for Timothy, he was also subjected

484
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: to ice baths. Now, so we go back to fat stores, right,

485
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: you know you fat.

486
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 3: When you say ice bag, you're talking about a bathtub, yes,

487
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 3: of cold water with ice.

488
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: Ice in it? Yeah? Yeah, And you know that that's

489
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: right up there with like World War two torture mechanisms

490
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: that our service people would have been subjected to to

491
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: elicit information from them. You know what could be your

492
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: motivation behind doing that. You've got a kid that is

493
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: already greatly physically compromised. He's certainly emotionally compromised and scarred

494
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: at this point by virtue of what you've subjected him to,

495
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: totally depended upon you. And then because he doesn't do

496
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: something right in your eyes, because you can totally dominate him,

497
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: you're going to run the bathtub. Now, you talk about

498
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: engaging in an active event. This is not something accidental.

499
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: You have to go run the bath And his brother

500
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: was part of this as well. Would run the bath

501
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: and place ice in it and submerge this kid in

502
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: it and have him in there.

503
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 3: When they gave his cause of death, you know they

504
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: listed malnutrition in hypothermia. The bath that he took was

505
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: the day before he died. His body temperature never rose

506
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 3: above healthy again after that last ice bath.

507
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: I think that this was probably the coup de gras

508
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: for him, that final finally, that final time when he

509
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: was subjected to this, because this is not the only

510
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: time that this happened, I think that that's what was

511
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: going to push him over the edge relative to his system,

512
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: finally just giving up and shutting down. For a normal person,

513
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: I think that if you're submerged in say icy waters,

514
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: and you're healthy, you're a healthy person. Let's say you're

515
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,239
Speaker 1: a healthy way, You've got fat stores on board, you

516
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: don't already have heart problems and this sort of thing.

517
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: I think that if you got into an environment where

518
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 1: you could wrap up, have a heat source, probably within

519
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 1: a few hours your body temperature would get back up

520
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: into a normal range. I'm not saying it's going to

521
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: be at ninety eight point six, because most of us,

522
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: first off, don't walk around at ninety eight point six.

523
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: I don't.

524
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: I'm in like ninety seven, so that number varies. But

525
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: just to get over that threshold into what would be

526
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 1: considered to be sustainable would take a couple of hours.

527
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: That's where a healthy person day. For this kid, he

528
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: had no shot relative to this all right.

529
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: That explains it.

530
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 3: That was what I was curious about because they used

531
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 3: listed it as cause of doubt as one of the causes.

532
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: And that's I think that that's probably a chronic, a

533
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: chronic thing. And when we look at causes of death,

534
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,959
Speaker 1: it's not just going to be the one thing that's

535
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: going to lead to our deaths. In many cases, it's

536
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: a combination. Particularly if you're talking about like natural disease process,

537
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: if you have somebody that's got diabetes, high pretension, those

538
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: sorts of things, all of those are contributing factors, okay

539
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: to maybe heart failure. In this particular case, it's like

540
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: you've got this fatal mix that's going on with him

541
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: with all of these metabolic problems he's having as a

542
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: result of absence of food. It's a combination of everything.

543
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,919
Speaker 1: And then on top of it, you throw in being

544
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: subjected to an ice bath. Yeah, it's going to be

545
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 1: respeefore disaster.

546
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: I want to ask you some about the food because

547
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: his mother claimed that he actually got a bag of

548
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 3: frozen chicken out of the freezer and was going to

549
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 3: eat it, which was her reason for locking things down

550
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: the cabin. Is the refrigerator, freezer and all that, and

551
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 3: I'm not buying her argument at all. But she did

552
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 3: actually change the refrigerator and keep it where he could

553
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 3: not get Yeah.

554
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it wasn't just the fridge. I saw the

555
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: images from the seeing Dave, and this person had locked

556
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: the cabinets, had locked everything, And I have this image

557
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: of if he could get out and he had the

558
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 1: available energy to do it, the idea that this craving

559
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 1: is starving that he would have on board that would

560
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: just be gnawing at him. He would have to drag

561
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 1: himself across the floor, he couldn't ambulate into the kitchen.

562
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: Maybe at some point in time he had done this.

563
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: And it's interesting with abusers. They'll do stuff symbolically like

564
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: this many times. Do you see what you've done to

565
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: all of us? Now, because we can't trust you around food,

566
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna lock everything and so now, me, your brother,

567
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: everybody in this house is going to be subjected to

568
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: your disobedience and it's all your fault. And that's the

569
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: kind of thing that abusers do, and that's what she

570
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: would have done with him. It's more of a demonstration.

571
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: It's not that she's discouraging, you know, trying to discourage

572
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 1: the theft of food, it's that she flips it around.

573
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: And to make matters even worse, you've got this fragile

574
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: child who is totally deepended upon her His body is

575
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: screaming for nutrition. And what you're going to subject them

576
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: to visually is the fact that you're going to be

577
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: denied no matter what you do. And oh, by the way,

578
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: if you look over your shoulder right here, I've got

579
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: cameras everywhere, and the cameras are going to tell the tale.

580
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: But thankfully at the end, Shander vander arc we'll never

581
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: see the light of day because she was convicted of

582
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: first ory murder in Michigan, and her son Paul, who

583
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: helped torture Timothy, was also convicted of childs I'm Joseph

584
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body backs