1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm George Severies, and this is United States of Kennedy, 2 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: Every week we go into one aspect of a Kennedy story, 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: and today we are talking about the nineteen sixty eight 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: RFK assassination and specifically about the variety of conspiracy theories 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: that have formed around it. Julia is out this week, 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: but she will be back in business soon, so it's 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: just me today, all right, let's get into it. So. 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: RFK Robert Francis Kennedy was the seventh child of Joseph 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: and Rose Kennedy. He was their third son, behind Joseph Junior, 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: who died in World War Two and JFK, who was 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: of course killed in nineteen sixty three. He is also, 13 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: of course, RFK Junior's father. A bit of background on 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: Bobby's political career up until nineteen sixty eight. His first 15 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: job was with Kennedy family friend, Senator Joseph McCarthy, Yes, 16 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: that Joseph McCarthy. He worked for six months on McCarthy's 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations to root out so called Commis 18 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: in the US government. RFK did quit but remained close 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: with McCarthy, who was actually the godfather of rfk's first child. 20 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: Bobby then successfully managed JFK's campaigns for both the House 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: and the Senate. He spent much of the mid fifties 22 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: through the early sixties, including as JFK's Attorney General, on 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: a crusade to root out organized crime in America, which 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: we explored on this podcast in our episode on RFK 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: Versus Jimmy Hoffa. RFK also became obsessed with toppling Castro 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 1: in Cuba. He oversaw the Clandenstein Operation Mongoose, which made 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: at least eight failed attempts on Castro's life, and back home. 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: In terms of domestic matters, Bobby was a late convert 29 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: to the civil rights movement. In nineteen sixty three, under 30 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: pressure from j Edgar Hoover, he infamously authorized wiretapping of 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Junior and other civil rights leaders. This 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: brings us to nineteen sixty eight, so as a candidate 33 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: in the Democratic primary for president, Bobby put out a 34 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: very different image to the American people than that of 35 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: the aggressive, dogged attorney general taking on the bad guys. 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: After his brother's assassination, the story goes. He developed a 37 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: newfound compassion for the plights of others, including Americans of 38 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: color and poor Americans. He also joined his primary challenger, 39 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: Eugene McCarthy in expressing his disapproval for the Vietnam War. 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: One of his most memorable moments came in a seemingly 41 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: unscripted speech he gave after the assassination of Martin Luther King. 42 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: So I'm going to quote from that now. RFK says, 43 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: what we need in the United States is not division. 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: What we need in the United States is not hatred. 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: What we need in the United States is not violence 46 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: or lawlessness, but is love and wisdom and compassion towards 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: one another, and the feeling of justice towards those who 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: still suffer within our country, whether they be white or 49 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: whether they be black. So it is in this context 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: that our RFK started winning over hearts and minds and 51 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: won the California primary. On June fifth, nineteen sixty eight. 52 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: After giving his victory speech at the Ambassador Hotel in 53 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, he was led back through the kitchen, and 54 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: while celebrating and shaking supporters hands, he was shot and killed. 55 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: A young man named Sir Hans Sirhan was convicted of 56 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: his murder and he is still alive in California prison today. 57 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: But like all things Kennedy, the official narrative of these 58 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: events has not been accepted by all, and conspiracy theories abound. 59 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Zach Stewart Pontier, a filmmaker, journalist, 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: and podcaster known for projects like HBO's The Jinks and 61 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: the podcast series Crime Town. In twenty eighteen, he released 62 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: a series called The RFK Tapes, which explored the RFK 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: assassination through rare recordings and new interviews to try to 64 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: understand what really happened on June fifth, nineteen sixty eight. Zach, 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to the United States of Kennedy. 66 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me so. 67 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: First off, because of a variety of scheduling issues and 68 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: the kind of non linear nature of the show, we 69 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: interestingly have not done an episode on the RFK Assassination yet, 70 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: but we have done a Movie Club episode on the 71 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: Forgotten two thousand and six film. Bobby, have you seen 72 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: that movie? 73 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: It's been a bit and I didn't go back and 74 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 2: rewatch it since working on the story, so my memory 75 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: of it is that of a college kid who didn't 76 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: understand anything about completely the history of it. My memory 77 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 2: is that it all takes place in the Ambassador Hotel 78 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: the night of the assassination, and it's star studied like 79 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 2: a gajillion cameos of people are coming in and out 80 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: and they're like, Oh, that's famous person, that's a famous person. 81 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's classic Oscar hopeful that landed with a 82 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: thud and did not actually do what it needed to 83 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: do either in the box office or with critics. But 84 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: I bring it up because to me, it's actually kind 85 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: of a great place to start in terms of the 86 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: conventional historical narrative about what happened that night. I mean, 87 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: it is a movie that is very much meant to 88 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: be wistful and hopeful and nostalgic about that time. It 89 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: is very kind of uncle critical about Bobby himself. He 90 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: is someone who is a great unifier. He wins the 91 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: California Primary, he give this inspirational speech, and then a 92 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: variety of people that are staying at this hotel are 93 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: all inspired by him for a variety of reasons. There's 94 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: a war veteran, and the people who are inspired by 95 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: his recent evolution on quote unquote race issues, and then 96 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: would you believe that this crazy person comes and assassinates 97 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: him and it is is wound in American history. So 98 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: with that in mind, before we get into any of 99 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: the weeds of the various theories around the assassination, I 100 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: wonder if you could just tell us what is the 101 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: official conventional historical narrative. If you were to ask the 102 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: average person that has read a US mandated AP history books, 103 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: you know, what would they tell you happened on June fifth, 104 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight. 105 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: I think one of the most famous things that is 106 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: lodged in people's memory is RFK on his back in 107 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 2: the kitchen of the hotel and the bus boy standing 108 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: next to him with a rosary. I mean, this is 109 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: the whole story that he had won this saying he 110 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 2: you know, his brother had been murdered five years earlier. 111 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 2: He had this sort of rise and he was gonna 112 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: get the nomination. California was the last Domino, and it 113 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: was all gonna fall. And in this moment of fashion, 114 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: he leaves and Sir Hans sar Han, a young man 115 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: pulls out a gun, shoots him and he dies on 116 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: the floor. Sir Hansorn is captured and taken away, and 117 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 2: that's the story. 118 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: And the scene is this very I mean again, I'm 119 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 1: going off of the movie here, which is funny because 120 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: it's a movie no one else has seen, accept me 121 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: and a few other people. But it is this chaotic 122 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: scene where he's From what I understand, he was gonna 123 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: go in a different direction after the speech, but instead 124 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: because of because he needed to talk to the press, 125 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: and the best way to where he was going was 126 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: through the kitchen. Kind of last minute. He was taken 127 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: through the kitchen, and it is chaotic, both in a 128 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: sense that everyone is crowding him, but also in a 129 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: positive way. It's like a celebratory vibe. You know, he 130 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: is shaking hands. People want to meet him. It's kind 131 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: of crazy that he's in the kitchen with the hotel workers. 132 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: So it's even before any shots are fired. It's kind 133 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: of a chaotic atmosphere. It's a crazy scene. It's it's jubilant. 134 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: The ballroom at the hotel is packed full of people. 135 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: There's tons of press. There's so many different angles of 136 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: this speech. There's so many different angles. E been walking out. 137 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: You can hear them say oh this way okay, and 138 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: you can kind of see, and they lead him away 139 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 2: and then pop pop pop. There's no actual footage of 140 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: the murder itself, but there's pop pop pop, and then 141 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: everybody's screaming. All of a sudden, people are running and 142 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: screaming and stampeding, and the scene takes a dramatic turn, 143 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: and so a. 144 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: Young man shoots him and then a variety of people 145 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: inside the crowd try to basically tackle people. 146 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 147 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the writer George Plimpton was also kind of 148 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: involved somehow. 149 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, George Clinton is there. Author George Plimpton says he 150 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: This is from an LAAP article. Author George Clinton says 151 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: he lacked the courage to look at dying Senator RFK, 152 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: but instead lunged against the senator's assailant, a man he 153 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: described as composed and peaceful. And this would come into 154 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: the way Sir Hans Arhn behaves, raises a lot of questions. 155 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: Right, of course, that's a great lead into the obvious 156 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: next question, which is who is Sir Hans ter Han. 157 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 1: He's a young man. He's a Palestinian Christian. From what 158 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: I remember, what did we know, you know, in the 159 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: days after this, what did the LAPD find out about him. 160 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 2: They pieced together a picture of a guy who has 161 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 2: recently given up on his dream of being a jockey, 162 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: struggling as an immigrant in California to fit in. They 163 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: figure out how he got the gun, They figure out 164 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 2: a lot about him, and it becomes a political case. Then, 165 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: because the story becomes so big, it gets co opted 166 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 2: by various people. And was it Kennedy's thoughts on the 167 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 2: Middle East that did it? And was it Kennedy's changing 168 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 2: thoughts on Vietnam? There were all these ideas of why 169 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 2: this young man wanted to kill Kennedy. And most importantly, 170 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 2: he doesn't seem to be able to remember the crime, right, 171 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: He doesn't remember the actual events when interviewed. Yeah, the 172 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 2: last thing he remembers is getting a cup of coffee. 173 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: And one of the things that drew me to this 174 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: case was they bring in a hypnotist and they hypnotize 175 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: him and they tape record all of this, and it's wild, 176 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: I mean, it's wild to think that in nineteen sixty 177 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: eight hypnosis would be like a real part of an investigation. 178 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: And they spent hours and hours hypnotizing him, trying to 179 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: get him to remember. 180 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: He never can and what is he's saying under hypnosis. 181 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm remembering when I listened to the podcast, 182 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: him yelling like no, no, no, or yes or Robert 183 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: is gonna die. 184 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: Or you know, getting very he's getting very upset, like 185 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 2: you could see, and the hypnotist has his booming voice 186 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: and he's like trying to take him through. You're there 187 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: in the ambassador kitchen, you're reaching reach for the guns 188 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: or on reach for the gun. You're doing it. You're 189 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 2: killing Kennedy. Why are you doing it? And he's hyperventilating 190 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: and like you can't explain it. 191 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: So in terms of the actual case, obviously, regardless of 192 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: what you believe about alternative theories or conspiracy theories, I 193 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: know this a loaded term. There was a reason why 194 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: the LAPD wanted to perform competence for lack of a 195 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: better term, because the jfkssas Nation had happened five years before. 196 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: It was famously messy and chaotic, and the primary suspect 197 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: was immediately murdered on camera. A number of conspiracy theories 198 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: that had already started to spring up were unmanageable. There 199 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: was a sort of distrust in the police in the CIA, 200 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: in the general system that was investigating this incredibly historically 201 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: important murder of a US president, And so it seems 202 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: like part of the aftermath of rfksas nation was like, 203 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: we have to wrap this up as soon as possible, 204 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: and we found a suspect, we have to act extremely 205 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: certain about what the official narrative is, and we have 206 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: to close the case. 207 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 3: So what was the timeline like right after that. I 208 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 3: don't know what the timeline was exactly. There were wrinkles 209 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 3: right away. That happens hours after the shooting. Sandra Serrano 210 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: is on TV and says, I saw a woman in 211 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 3: a polka dot dress run out of the kitchen and 212 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 3: say we did it, We did it. 213 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: We killed Kennedy. So that sort of blows up the 214 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: lone gunman theory right there. If there's somebody else running 215 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: out saying we did it, and obviously he's not sand 216 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: by himself. He then corroborates they ask him about a 217 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: woman in a polka dot dress and he can't quite 218 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 2: say a polka dot dress, but he does remember seeing 219 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: a woman who wanted to give him a cup of 220 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: coffee and maybe pinched him on the neck. So this 221 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: idea pretty quickly springs up that they have to find 222 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: this woman in the poka dot dress, and they look 223 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: for her. The cops are on the cover of the 224 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: newspaper holding up a polka dot dress they have. They 225 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 2: take Sandra Serrano to figure out how big the poka 226 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: dots were, and then they decide it's not relevant and 227 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: they take her into a witness interrogation room and they 228 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 2: beat it out, not beat it at it, but they 229 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: grind her down until she says that she didn't see 230 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 2: it through all the polka dot dress. So they're trying 231 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: to get their story straight, but it's a little on 232 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 2: unruly is there's also too many bullets. I don't know 233 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: if you want to talk about well, yeah. 234 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: Know, we'll get to that. But speaking of the woman 235 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: in the pokadad dress, everything sort of has like a 236 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: you know, there's always some accusation that seems like, oh, 237 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: this must be true, this must be you know, we're 238 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: blowing the thing wide open, and then there's some very 239 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: obvious scantidote to that. And for this one, one of 240 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: the things we read was that the witnesses said that 241 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: she was saying we shot him, but then in fact 242 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: she could have been saying we got him, meaning the 243 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: assassin like we got him as in like the crowd 244 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: pinned down the person who had shot RFK. So both 245 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: of those are equally likely in absence of more detailed evidence. 246 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 2: I totally agree. Yeah, a lot of this turns into 247 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: a mirror of like what you're looking for. 248 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 249 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: this break, and we're back with United States of Kennedy. 250 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: So in terms of Strahan Taran, obviously there is some 251 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: mystery at the core of who he is. I mean, 252 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: doesn't remember what happened. His political motivations are maybe a 253 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: bit vague, and people I think projected a lot onto 254 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: him because of his ethnic and religious identities. What has 255 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: he actually said he's still alive today, what has he 256 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: said publicly specifically during that time? But even since then. 257 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: He's had many different phases. I would say there was 258 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: a time when he went on TV and took credit 259 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: for it, said that he was he had done it 260 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: for political reasons, and that he would do it again. 261 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: Basically. 262 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 2: Then he backed off of that and he was young. 263 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't imagine what it was like to 264 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: be in jail for this long and he's had many 265 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 2: different lawyers over the years, and he's come up for 266 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: parole many different times. Later in life, by all accounts, 267 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 2: he's become like very I think peaceful. He buys into 268 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: the conspiracy. I mean, he believes that he was taken 269 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: somewhere and trained to do this. And yeah, he has 270 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: a lot of people that around him that also believe that. 271 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: And he was up for parole, and he got the 272 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: California Parole Board and I think a twenty twenty two 273 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: said that he should get parole, and knew some blocked 274 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: and knew blocked. I believe they should let him out. 275 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: That's what I believe. 276 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: Well, he's I mean, he's eighty years old right now. 277 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: He's been in prison since his twenties. So you're we're 278 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: sort of dancing around some of the kind of more 279 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: colorful alternative theories, and I want to get into the details. 280 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: But before we do, I actually would love to know. 281 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: I know you've talked about this a lot, but what 282 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: got you interested in this case? 283 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: So it was the first podcast ever heard. Was a 284 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: tape that a thirty minute documentar or an hour documentary 285 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: that Bill Klaber made in the eighties, and it just 286 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: was I was really struck by just the case, and 287 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: I think the movie JFK had just come out, and 288 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: I was kind of like interested in the whole story 289 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: of the Kennedys and this case as a kid. And 290 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: then I got into podcasts later and in life. I 291 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 2: did a podcast called Crimetown for Gimlet, and then after 292 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 2: that we were thinking about what we would do next, 293 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 2: and I had remembered Bill's RFK tapes peace and we 294 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: contacted the California State Archives and when I saw the 295 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: list of all the tapes they had, I just started 296 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: to get incredibly excited, and we decided to make the podcast. 297 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: But the thing about the story that hooked me was 298 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: Alard Lowenstein, who was a congressman at the time and 299 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: a good friend of RFKS and just a really inspirational dude, 300 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: and had spoken on the phone from the hotel with 301 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: Kennedy before he went downstairs and was one of the 302 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 2: first people to start to get suspicious because of the 303 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: amount of bullets that were later found didn't add up 304 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: to Ali Lohenstein and Alard Lonstein started to spin up 305 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: publicity and got people to relook at it, and at 306 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 2: the time the police were holding a lot back and 307 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: he got a lot of information out. They reached, they 308 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 2: do a lot of tests, and then Alard Lonstein is murdered. 309 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: When was he murder Yeah, seventy eight or eighty. 310 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: And for anyone who either might not know or might 311 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: have listened to the podcast in twenty eighteen and doesn't remember, 312 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: who is Bill Klaber? How did he get involved in 313 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: all of it? 314 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: Bill Klaber was a member of a very select community 315 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 2: of researchers, conspiracy researchers I would call them, that fought 316 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: really hard to get all of the evidentiary and investigative 317 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: files to the Califoraifolia State Archives, and it was a 318 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 2: big deal. He had known Paul Shrade, who had been 319 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: wounded in the kitchen, and Paul Shrad kind of was 320 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: the grandfather of movement. And Bill was the closest that 321 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,439 Speaker 2: I got to that. He was the one who had 322 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: picked up the flame. He was republishing his book about 323 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 2: the assassination, and he had done this audio piece and 324 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 2: he became my co host, my guide through the story 325 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 2: in the podcast is he's telling me the story of 326 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: the conspiracy of RFK and we're investigating it together. 327 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: And the listener really kind of relates to you because 328 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: you are getting caught up in it at one minute 329 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: and then being like, oh my god, is this guy 330 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: completely full of shit the next minute. Because someone like 331 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: Bill has an incredibly strong belief that his version of 332 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: events is the true version of events, and so that 333 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: inevitably caused him to have a few blind spots or 334 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: will be especially credulous when something pops up that supports 335 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: his theories. 336 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: I would agree with all that. Yeah, he's also a 337 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 2: wonderful man, and he's very smart, and it's an identity, 338 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: and it's a belief that when questioned, it's hard to describe. 339 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 2: But I have beliefs like that, you know what I mean. So, 340 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: you know, the last time I talked to Bill, which 341 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: wasn't that long ago, he said, let's go over the 342 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 2: bullets one more time. 343 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: I said, Bill, you know, so all right, all right, 344 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: let's get into the bullet Let's get into like the specifics. 345 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: You know, now that we know what most people believe, obviously, 346 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: Sir Henroon was tried and imprisoned as though he was 347 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: acting alone. That is the official narrative. You know, doesn't 348 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: hurt anyone to sort of entertain alternative theories on a podcast, 349 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: So what are the building blocks of this alternative theory? 350 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: The Manchurian candidate the CIA testing of can you create 351 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 2: an assassin who would be like a robot for which 352 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 2: there's lots of evidence they were trying to do. 353 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: That, And this is hypno programming? 354 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: Correct? 355 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: Is the term? Does the hypno programming theory coexist with 356 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: the theory that there are two shooters, meaning it was 357 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: Sir Hunter Hun hypnoprogrammed, or is this whole thing related 358 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: to a different, more legitimate shooter being the one to 359 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: actually shoot Bobby. 360 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 2: See, this is sort of the problem, like if you 361 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 2: were confident in your hypno programming, why would you need 362 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: a second shooter? Yeah, both exists in the same thing. 363 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 2: And I would say, like the conspiracy community has gray 364 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: areas where you'd be at an awesome dinner and we'd 365 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: all be talking when this guy believes something different about 366 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 2: the theory than this woman and you're sort of like, okay, 367 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: well we can all agree. There's too many bullets, right, 368 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 2: you know, like, okay, you know, so I don't think 369 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: there's one theory, but the second shooter is the prenominate 370 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 2: theory that there was a second shooter standing behind Bobby Kennedy. 371 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: So whether or not anyone was hypnoprogrammed, the basic tenets 372 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: of the conspiracy theory is that the original account says 373 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,919 Speaker 1: that there were seven or eight shots heard, but in 374 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 1: fact there were thirteen shots heard, which is impossible because 375 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: the gun that surrounds round had only had eight bullets in. 376 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: It is that you're close. 377 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 2: It's less about how many shots were heard and more 378 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: about the wounds of the people. So Kennedy said three times. 379 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: The gist of it the theory, and this is the 380 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 2: conspiracy people. You're gonna get letters. They're going to come 381 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: after you because they're gonna be like, sure he said this, 382 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 2: and it's not that, and they're absolutely right, it's not 383 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: what I'm saying. But just for the sake of argument, 384 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 2: he's hit three times and there's six other victims, So 385 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: how is that there's nine people and his gun only 386 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 2: holds eight bullets? And so there was a famous lineer's like, 387 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: I don't know a land from a groove, but I 388 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,360 Speaker 2: know that an HR revolver can't fire. 389 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: Nine bullets, right, And then also he was shot from 390 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: close range, but Sirhnsuron was never that close to you. 391 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So now you get into witness eyewitness testimony, 392 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 2: which I, as any detective will tell you, is murky. 393 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 2: But yes, it was as if the gun was pressed 394 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: on Robert Kennedy's neck. And many people say he never 395 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: got that close. And the other thing was that Kennedy's 396 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: hit here and here and people can't see, but I'm 397 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 2: pointing like up my armpit, as if somebody was standing 398 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 2: behind and shot three times. And everybody said Sir Han 399 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: was in front of him. So then there's a question 400 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 2: of like did he go like this and like Cower, 401 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: did he turn his body away? And then the firing 402 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: started And so this is what happened everybody. And so 403 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: when you compare the witness statements, nothing really lines up 404 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 2: to the forensic autopsy. 405 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: Did the people in charge of the case at all 406 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: entertain any feedback like this? 407 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: I would say that they knew everybody that was in 408 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: that kitchen, and there was one other person that had 409 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 2: a gun, and they did try to get that gun 410 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 2: to test it. That was the Dane Caesar. He was 411 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 2: the number one suspect for the second gunman. He was 412 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 2: a security guard that was hired and I think he 413 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 2: had a twenty two. 414 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: He had a twenty two, and people know he was 415 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,120 Speaker 1: there were there any eyewitnesses that saw him pull out 416 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: the gun, No, no, no, And his from what I understand, 417 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong, his motivations were sort 418 00:21:58,760 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: of racist. 419 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't like he didn't like Kennedy, and he 420 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: was racist, and. 421 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: Yes, he didn't like he didn't he didn't like his 422 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: turn towards civil rights, and it would have been purely 423 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: a political motive. 424 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 2: There was a tremendous amount of animosity in la in 425 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: the police community for Kennedy, and thank Caesar was connected 426 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 2: to that on some level. And so that was a 427 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 2: theory that the woman in the pokadon dress was the handler, 428 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: and she took Sir Han and she got him a 429 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 2: cup of coffee and then did the thing that whatever 430 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: was supposed to have him go into his hypno program 431 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: stance and he shoots and everybody looks at him, and 432 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 2: then the real assassin just goes pop pop pop and 433 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 2: walks away. And then that's that. 434 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: I mean, just off the bat. It's like a the 435 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: thinking you need both a hypno assassin and a real 436 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: assassin is still sort of confounding to me. I think 437 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: then having the woman in the pokadon dress allegedly go 438 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: out and be openly celebrating that they killed Kennedy was 439 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: also kind of a strange phenomenon. 440 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: I used to say to Bill, like, I would not 441 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 2: be the one, the guy in the CIA meeting that 442 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 2: pitched this idea. I would be so afraid. Well, okay, simple, 443 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 2: but just bear with me for a second. We need 444 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: three things. There's simple things. We could do them all. 445 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 2: We need a girl. She should be wearing some sort 446 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: of dress like maybe poke dot. You know, you're just like, 447 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 2: this is the plan, this is the master plan. You're 448 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 2: gonna kill him in front of the world, in the 449 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 2: kitchen with these people that it seemed like everything would 450 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 2: go wrong. 451 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, kill him in front of the whole world. Have 452 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: the woman in charge be clearly visible and you know, 453 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: shouting a stick out but yes, like because she's wearing 454 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: something that is very much like identifiable. Then she basically 455 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: admits it loudly to everyone what just happened. It was 456 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: hard to make sense of it. 457 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: I think the thing that is confounding is how are 458 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: there more people wounded than bullets? 459 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: Yeah? 460 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 2: And how is it that Kennedy has shot in places 461 00:23:53,920 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 2: where people don't remember him getting there, And yeah, I 462 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 2: think that that is very confounding. And that's what Alard 463 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 2: Lowenstein hoped into and said, did we need to question this? 464 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 2: And I think questioning things is important. I don't I 465 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: never blame anyone for asking questions. 466 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Can you say a little bit more about Lowenstein? 467 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: So what was the timeline of him trying to blow 468 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: the whistle up to him dying? 469 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 2: Okay? So Allard Lowenstein was He was a Democratic politician 470 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 2: focused on civil rights in the late sixties and all 471 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: the way through his whole life. He loved speaking to students. 472 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: He was an incredible guy. He taught Yale I believe, 473 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 2: and he was good friends with Kennedy. Though he had 474 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 2: back McCarthy in the primary, and so him and RFK 475 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: had this sort of like dance going on of RFK saying, 476 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: join my campaign. That's not going to work out, and 477 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,959 Speaker 2: the California primary solidifies that. He called Lowenstein that night 478 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: and says, see, you gotta come work on my campaign, 479 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: and Alard's like fine. Then he goes down in the 480 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: kitchen gets killed. 481 00:24:58,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: Got it? Okay? 482 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 2: Owenstein starts looking into it in the early seventies, and 483 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: in seventy five they have a breakthrough. That's the first 484 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: time that anyone like cares and they start looking into 485 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 2: the case, and they retest the guns and all this stuff. 486 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 2: And in nineteen eighty then he starts a more of 487 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 2: a public campaign. Lowenstein goes on TV and he's talking 488 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 2: to this and he's debating it, and then he's murdered 489 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty and what are the I mean? Dennis 490 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: Sweeney came into his office. Dennis Sweeney was a troubled 491 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: young man who Lowenstein had helped. And some maybe Lonstein 492 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: might have been gay and might have had an affair 493 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 2: with him, We don't know. They had a connection for sure, 494 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 2: and Lowestein was trying to help this troubled man and 495 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: he came into his office in Mintown and pulled out 496 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: a gun China. 497 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: And then was there ever an inquiry into whether this 498 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: is all related to the art case? 499 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and some people think that it is, But I 500 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 2: think Dennis Sweeney was a troubled person, got it. Dennis 501 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: Sweeney got out? 502 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: Okay? 503 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 2: Interesting, yeah, you could how he's your guest next week. 504 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: We're gonna take a short break, stay with us, and 505 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: we're back with United States of Kennedy. So you're getting 506 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: interested in all this stuff around I don't know, twenty sixteen, 507 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, right before the podcast, you get access to 508 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: all these files. I feel like there's a productive ambiguity 509 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: with the podcast. I mean, it's not sort of preach 510 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: you one way or another, and I think you do 511 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: a good job of kind of letting the audience aside 512 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: what they believe based on the evidence that's presented. But 513 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can think back to that time, like, 514 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: were there any specific tapes or files or pieces of 515 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: research that really got you that really, you know, made 516 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: you have like an even brief aha moment. 517 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, my friend's mom was there that night, and 518 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 2: I got in touch with her, and she knew one 519 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: of the cops who had arrested Sarahan Saran and had 520 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: walked out with him, and I got to speak to 521 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: him on the phone and he told me that when 522 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 2: they came in the next day, they said a security 523 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: guard fired his gun and that was Caesar. That was 524 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 2: the word on the street. And I don't think he 525 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: knew what he was saying to me, And I was like, 526 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I think that's the farthest I went 527 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 2: towards believing that, wow, you know, that this might really 528 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 2: be a conspiracy, that there might be something wrong with 529 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: the official What I loved about this story though, was 530 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: there's just so many interesting touched, so many interesting things, 531 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: and it was all on tape, so like it really 532 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: came to life for me listening, I felt like I 533 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 2: was on the hunt. I mean, I would stay up 534 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: late listening to these interrogation tapes with all the different 535 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: various witnesses. 536 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: Are there any others that you can remember? 537 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 2: Sandra Serrano, the woman who saw the Polkadad dress, that 538 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: the tapes of her being berated by the waitness is incredible. 539 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: And there were breakthroughs going on. There were audio breakthroughs, 540 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: which I thought was amazing, you know, and I had 541 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 2: high hopes. 542 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 1: You know. 543 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: Bill told me that we were going to go meet 544 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 2: an audio forensic detective and he was going to show 545 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: us that there were more than eight shots on a tape. 546 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 2: And that got me very excited. 547 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: And that if I remember correctly, that detective then proved 548 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: that there were thirteen shots. That then you called up 549 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: a friend of yours that is sort of like an 550 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: audio nerd, and he said that he in fact only 551 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: here seven or eight. 552 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it was interesting. By then I 553 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 2: was like in the beginning, I was just bright eyed, 554 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: bushy tailed, like this is so interesting. I can't believe 555 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: I'm geting to meet all these people, Like I got 556 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: to meet Paul Schrade. He got shot in the head, 557 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: you know, like in the kitchen, like, and he was 558 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: an incredible guy, like and he went to Sir Hans, 559 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: Sir Hans parole hearing and said, give this man proll 560 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 2: and shook his hand, I mean, very strong, courageous guy. 561 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 2: And I loved it. And so gradually I went from 562 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: that to like, now I know the story. Now I've 563 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: heard it all, I've read the statements, I've seen all 564 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: the things, and now I'm like, I don't know that 565 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 2: I'm going to come to the same conclusion that everybody did. 566 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: So I was dealing with the conspiracy research crowd, and 567 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: then I was also dealing with people that believed that 568 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: it was definitely they had a hatred for Surrons Rahn 569 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 2: and they knew it had to be that way. And 570 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 2: it was like both people had similar investigative tactics, like 571 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 2: the stuff that matched their view of the case that 572 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: they'd like to talk about, the stuff that didn't that 573 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: gets swept away, and like you can trust some witness 574 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: statements but not all witness statement. It was just they 575 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: were both trying to carve it so tightly, and I 576 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 2: and I felt like I was I felt like I 577 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: was coming down more in the middle between the two sides. 578 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: But I know that many many people don't think that. 579 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is something we ran into, like 580 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: over and over with Kennedy conspiracy stuff. It's just like 581 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: that Kennedy's are so despite being so overexposed, weirdly unknowable. 582 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: It's always unclear just how insidious some of the inter 583 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: family dynamics are. And then they are also always adjacent 584 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: to larger structures in the Democratic Party, larger structures in 585 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: the organized crime, in the mafia, larger structures. You know, 586 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: cases like this are also prone to any sort of 587 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: mismanagement in anything from the police force, the government. So 588 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: it's not surprising that all of this stuff is like 589 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: catnip for anyone who wants to believe that there are 590 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote things that are not telling us. 591 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So we talked to somebody who said there 592 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: were thirteen shots, and then somebody who said I heard 593 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: there were only seven. That's how many I found. And 594 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to think. Is how I sent 595 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: it to my friend. He said, you could find seven, 596 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 2: So he's not an audio forensic detective, but he didn't 597 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: have an ulterior motive. When I sent it to him. 598 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 2: He was actually disappointed to tell me that he only 599 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: found eight, Like, yeah, dude, whatever I mean. 600 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: Also, obviously I'm not a forensic expert, but presumably bullets 601 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: do ricochet. There are there are things that can happen 602 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: that could justify, you know, the nine bullet holes versus 603 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: however many bullets. 604 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 2: When I spoke to a detective friend of mine and 605 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: he said, look crime scene, like, you can't trust that 606 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: that he could have had his he could have like 607 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: bang bang and then got knocked back. And people people 608 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: want a gun's going off, they all look away, like 609 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: nobody's looking at the thing. 610 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: Like some people's memories, especially during a literal traumatic event, 611 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: are famously unreliable. 612 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 2: So you can't you have to throw it all out 613 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: and just say, like, what's the most reasonable explanation and 614 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 2: once you've got a second gunman with a gun that's 615 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 2: not the same. But it's like that was I was like, 616 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: if you were going to plan this when you give 617 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: them the same gun. Yeah, Like if you got two 618 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: gunmen with two guns, then you also need a corrupt 619 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: police force to cover it up. It's just so complicated. 620 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it sounds to me like if the 621 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: poke about dress hypno assassin and second assassin theory is correct, 622 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: that opens up more questions than an answer to state 623 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: the obvious. But I want to talk a little bit 624 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: about Paul Shrade. You mentioned Paul Shrade, and I want 625 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: to just talk a little bit more about who he 626 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: was and how he had this change of heart. And 627 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: I also, you know, because we want to always bring 628 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: it back to the Kennedys, I want to talk about 629 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: his relationship with RFK Junior and how the two of 630 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: them came together to propose the questions that they had 631 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: about the case. Because RFK Junior, who was obviously Rfk's 632 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: son and was very young when this happened, and this 633 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: was like a central trauma in his life obviously, so 634 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: it is in many ways we are still you know, 635 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: living in the aftermath of these events. So Shrade was 636 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: in the kitchen and was shot in the head. 637 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 2: It was part of the Hugo Chavez labor movement, and 638 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: Trade was part of the union and very supportive of 639 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 2: that movement, as was RFK, and so they were friends. 640 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 2: And so when he was in California, RFK and Trade 641 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: would organize a meet together, and so Shrade was on 642 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: he's on the stage with him, and he walks with 643 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: him when he gets off, and so he's one of 644 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: the people hit by another bullet, and he believed that 645 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: it was a lone gunman. And then alerd Lowenstein came 646 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: to see him and Allerd Lowenstein needed Trade because Shrade 647 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: was a victim in the case and so he had 648 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: certain rights. And so Lowenstein, who was just a lawyer 649 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 2: and a very smart lawyer, looked at the case and said, 650 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: I don't have rights here. I need to find somebody 651 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 2: else who was a victim, looked around and found Paul Schrade. 652 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: I don't know if they knew each other before then, 653 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 2: but he then went and showed Trade all the evidence 654 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 2: that this was all done by people who loved Robert 655 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: Kennedy wanting to do the right thing, and they came 656 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: to trade and Trade put his name on this case 657 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 2: and was how because he had certain rights as a victim, 658 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 2: they were able to get the bullets retested and the 659 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: guns retested and that kind of thing. I don't know 660 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: how he got to RFK. 661 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. In twenty twelve, RFK Junior and Paul Schrade sent 662 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: a letter to Attorney jen Eric Holder outlining the case 663 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: against Caesar, and it seems like it didn't quite go anywhere. 664 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: And say ar in fact died in twenty nineteen, so 665 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: it is now sort of a mood point. But you know, 666 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't really help the case of that side to 667 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: have RFK Junior on your side who is kind of 668 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: famously prone to conspiracy theories. 669 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: That's a more new thing though at the time. I 670 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 2: don't think that's what he was known. 671 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: I guess that's true. I guess that's true. Twenty twelve, Yeah, 672 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: should be noted that Seesar was interviewed and even consented 673 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: to a polygraph and passed it. So I think it 674 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,240 Speaker 1: was looked into, and then you know, whether the process 675 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: was shady or not. They decided that there's there's no 676 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: there there, and when we. 677 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 2: Were working on the podcast, there were rumors that RFK 678 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 2: Junior might go to the Philippines, where Caesar was living, 679 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 2: and confront him. Yeah, I felt like I understood why 680 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: RFK Junior was thought what he thought, and I think 681 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: he was really helpful for a lot of the researchers 682 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 2: and getting new things looked at and more information out there. 683 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: I've seen some of the stuff he's put together, and 684 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: I don't know that he's so in touch with the 685 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 2: science of facts and how they relate to reality in 686 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 2: every aspect of his life. 687 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think that is something we keep 688 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: running into here as well. I mean, I don't want 689 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: to keep you for too long, but I am wondering 690 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: you know that. It's now twenty twenty six. The podcast 691 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: has been out for quite a while, and the response was, 692 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: in my memory, very positive. But a lot of extremely 693 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: opinionated people must have gotten in touch with you since 694 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: they came out, like what have those intervening years been like? 695 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 2: Well, there was a lot of pressure about like what 696 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 2: side I was gonna come out on, even all the 697 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 2: way up until when we published the episode. I was 698 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 2: getting calls and getting lobby to change it. And my 699 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 2: son had just been born, Trump had just been elected 700 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 2: the first time, my idea of conspiracies was changing. I 701 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: had a lot of fun when we started. I was like, 702 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: this is incredible, this is crazy, and like joy the 703 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 2: research and enjoyed putting this together. And as conspiracies became 704 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 2: more front facing and became pedled more from official channels, 705 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 2: it felt reckless a little to be just spinning things 706 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 2: up without answers, and so I felt like I needed 707 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 2: to say I don't feel this way about every story, 708 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 2: but I felt at the end of people going on 709 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: this journey with me, I felt I needed to say, 710 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 2: when I talk about this, this is what I think, 711 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 2: and I hope I left room for other people to 712 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 2: come up with their own ideas. I tried to. Bill 713 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 2: was very upset with me. Many people in the conspiracy 714 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 2: community who were very upset with me, and that's just 715 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: what happens when you publish hard stories. I think I 716 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: didn't blame them. I understood their perspective. I also got 717 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: a tremendous lot of nice notes about it. Bill did 718 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 2: another show about the conspiracy to murder Martin Luther King Junior, 719 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,799 Speaker 2: which I listened to and found equally fascinating. I think 720 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 2: along the way I didn't want to be looking into 721 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 2: so many conspiracies. Ended up doing a history show for 722 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 2: Spotify pretty soon after this, and I sort of was like, Oh, 723 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 2: I really like telling stories of history. Maybe they don't 724 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 2: all have to be conspiracies. 725 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think you're absolutely right about the turn that 726 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: happened post first Trump election, where thinking about conspiracies to 727 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: me used to be sort of an interesting way to 728 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: think about the human psyche, to think about human fallibility. 729 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: It didn't feel so high stakes that you are, you know, 730 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:29,399 Speaker 1: quote unquote platforming someone who is puncturing shared reality, And 731 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: it felt just like a conversation starter in some way. 732 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 1: And I think that now that there are actual harmful 733 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists in the White House, you know, in charge 734 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: of major organizations, it feels as you're saying much more 735 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: reckless to treat it with a light hand that does 736 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: have fun with it, which is sort of a bummer 737 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: because it actually limits the amount of things we can 738 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: talk about and have fun with, which, you know, I 739 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: think there should be space for like slightly more playful 740 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: sort of conversations without everything being so, you know, are 741 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: you crazy conspiracy theorists? 742 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 2: I agree? I agree. I think the work we probably 743 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: both like to do is like in communication with where 744 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: the present society is right, So you're kind of like 745 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 2: reacting and lending your voice to different aspects of it 746 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 2: and choosing at time so lend your voice to different aspects. 747 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: I still make true crime stuff, you know, and I've 748 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: gotten criticism for having too much fun with that glory 749 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 2: of sharing gangsters and things like that, and I always 750 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 2: strive for more nuance, especially when you're telling stories of crime. 751 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 2: But anything, I think you have to put the decisions 752 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: people make in context. That's why I'm so I think 753 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: it's so important that when Lowenstein took this on, he 754 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 2: was doing it for his friend who got murdered. When 755 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 2: Shrade took this on, he was doing it for his friend, 756 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 2: you know. Even Bill, when he took this on, he 757 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 2: saw an injustice in the world that he wanted to stop. 758 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 2: You know, I think people get into this for the 759 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 2: right reasons, and I think that's cool. 760 00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, completely. It's interesting sometimes pure motives can be 761 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: combined with misguided beliefs, whereas the opposite is also true. 762 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: You know, someone in I don't know, in the LAPD 763 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: who just wants to I don't know get awarded for 764 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: finding the right suspect or something and does not care 765 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 1: about quote unquote justice can actually be factually correct. Yeah, 766 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. 767 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 2: That's a great one. 768 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 1: Well, I think we can leave it there. Zech. This 769 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: has been very fun, and you know, I hope it 770 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: was enjoyable for you to revisit this stuff eight years later. 771 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: I know it's been a while, but it's very interesting 772 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: and we're big fans of your work here, so we 773 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: really appreciate it. 774 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 2: Oh, that's so nice. 775 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: So that's it for this week's episode. Subscribe and follow 776 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: United States of Kennedy for all Things Kennedy every week. 777 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,799 Speaker 4: United States of Kennedy is hosted by me Julia Clair 778 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 4: and George Savers. 779 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: Original music by Joshua Chipolski. 780 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 4: Editing by Graham Gibson. 781 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering by Doug. 782 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 4: Bame, Research by Dave Bruce and Austin Thompson. 783 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: Our producer is Carmen Laurent. 784 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 4: Our executive producer is Jenna Cagele. 785 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: Created by Lyra Smith. 786 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 4: United States of Kennedy is the production of Their Lives. 787 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 1: The podcast