WEBVTT - Shipwreck Hunters: The Trillion Dollar Undersea Quest 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:10.879 Now Really, Really, Now Really Hello and welcome to Really 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:13.800 No Really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden, who suggests 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.520 that subscribing to the Really No Really podcast is like 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:20.239 finding a hidden treasure to subscribe and claim that treasure 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.800 is yours. And speaking of hidden treasures, did you know 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.079 that we are in the golden age of finding and 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:31.320 recovering trillion dollars shipwrecks. These high stakes, highly dangerous expeditions 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:35.640 have been supercharged thanks to revolutionary deep ocean technologies. But 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.720 it's not just the good guys searching through sunken Spanish 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.080 galleons for gold to balloons. There are some pretty nefarious 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.200 and fairly dangerous treasure hunters out there, and the rush 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:47.479 to be first can sometimes get you killed. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:48.880 Really No Really. 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.480 To help us salvage what's actually going on, we turned 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.640 to the Indiana Jones of Underwater Archaeology, marine scientist and 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:00.200 oceanographer David L. Merns, who's a fellow of the Ial 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:05.000 Geographical Society and the Explorers Club. He's located twenty five 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:09.800 major shipwrecks and holds five Guinness World records, including salvaging 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.520 the deepest shipwreck ever found so let's welcome to you 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.520 guys who are considered by some to be national treasures. 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:18.600 And by some I mean themselves. 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:22.400 Here's Jason and Peters. Let's talk about what we need 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:23.399 to talk about today. 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.200 Premise. Here's a premise. Give you a premise because you 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:27.959 do it very well. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:29.479 To people that. 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.560 Were on the antique road show and they're showing these 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:34.440 gold ingots. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:36.160 The beautiful gold beautiful gingers. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.920 To this older couple who in the late seventies early 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:41.839 eighties who were holding them from another guy friend who's 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:42.520 gone from a friend. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:44.720 It turns out it wat to hold these gold ingots 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:45.520 for me. I'll be back. 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.559 That doesn't and they know the friend and he said, 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.520 they know where it's from. He salvaged the ship. 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:52.040 That's the trick. 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:55.320 What they didn't realize was that that's illegal. And they 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:56.680 went to change jail and. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.440 They're in jail going, why what did we do? I 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.200 didn't do anything. A guy gave me a thing. 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.720 So this is the golden age of finding shipwrecks, which 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.160 are worth trillions of dollars because of sonar, submersibles. 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:11.200 All this stuff. Sure, there are people are fighting over 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:11.680 this stuff. 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.120 Yeah, one guy is in jail for five years because 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:15.840 he refuses to give the. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.680 Gold back that's right to the country of origin. And 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.440 I stand with that. Well, okay, and I do too. 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.800 That's why we have one of the most renowned shipwreck hunters, yes, 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.160 an archaeologist in the world coming on in a minute. 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.640 That's my thought is this, And my question to you 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:32.640 is how good could they bees? Coming on the wash? 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.959 Not everybody vets so so they figure SIGNFD. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.480 What the hell? Who's the other guy? We know? Right? 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.840 We don't know? All right? So radio, My. 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.440 Question is this, if I leave a sweatshirt and a 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.160 diner for two hundred and fifty years. 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.240 Yeah, and I come back to the walk. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.440 Into the booth two hundred and fifty years later, they go, hey, 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:49.960 look at this. 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:51.000 I found a sweatshirt. 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.480 Yeah, and you've had it for two and fifty I 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.400 haven't gotten Hey, that's my shirt, but no, it's my 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:58.560 shirt for two hundred and fifty years. 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:00.680 What are you doing. I'm a treasure. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.920 Yes, when I was five years old. One of the 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:06.480 golden rules. There are two golden rules. One is treat 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.400 others as you would have them treat you. That is 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:09.200 the golden rule. 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:11.440 It's all because I don't know what the second one is. 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:19.880 The second is the second rule isn't every kindergartener knows it? Finders, keepers, losers, weepers. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:22.640 I found it, you dropped it. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.320 We have a We had a thing over my son 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.079 Noah's bed when he was little, to help my oldest son, 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:34.600 Gab was called the Toddler's Rules of Ownership. It was 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.160 a brilliant list. It was things like, if I think 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.200 it's mine, it's mine. If it was yours and I 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:46.280 now have it, it's mine. If I think it's mine 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.440 and you have it, it's still mine. 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:50.480 I mean, these were the top owner. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.520 We should tell this guy. We should Maybe this will 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.480 solve the whole shipwreck problem. And the amazing thing now, 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.000 if you if you're listening and you're wondering, should I 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.600 stay with the shipwreck? The number one rip shipwreck of 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.880 all times, the Columbia. They kind of know where it is, 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.400 and everybody wants it because it's supposed to be billions 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.360 and billions of dollars. But my question to the shipwreck 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:16.240 expert is, so I now have risked my life, I've 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.640 raised money to do this. I've gone down to the 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.560 shelves down there, I got squids. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:22.919 God knows what's do. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:24.800 Not a lot and my wife you know you're going 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:26.599 again and leaving the kids right, all of that stuff. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.040 I finally bring up a golden gut after twenty years 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.520 and Spain goes, oh, that's ours. They go, why didn't 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:32.920 you go get Yeah? 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:36.000 So it just right to put it in the Yiddish phrase, 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:37.960 kish mine took, it's yours. 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.599 There you go, which I think was also on your list. 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:43.320 That's written on the bar. Kish mind took this property 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:43.760 of Spain. 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:44.960 It's a fascinating thing. 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.720 And our guests, our guests as a Guinness World Book 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:49.640 of Records for finding shipwreck and I'm on. But he's 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.520 also a professor and an archaeologist, so that the Indiana 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.159 Jones Yes shipwreck, yes, absolutely, and. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.760 One whip doesn't work as well underwater. I've known it's 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:02.520 a lot say lower. If you see Jason Momoa, everything 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:11.480 just just like so yeah, if I see yeah, that's 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:13.359 that's the problem with those films. 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.279 You know what, he's a good actor. I just thought 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.840 it's a decent actor. Underwork, he's even better. You sumers him. 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:21.320 He's that much better of all. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.320 The underwater actors. He's probably the best so shipwrecks. Yeah, 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.560 let's say hello to our guest. Would you like to 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:27.880 introduce David. 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.960 David Mearns is what a fascinating man. He's one of 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.000 the world's most experienced in successful deep sea shipwreck hunters, 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.440 having located twenty five. 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.320 I said, I don't We'll have to bleep that out. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.760 I think you said deep sea. It was a little 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:41.760 flap of the lips. 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:43.839 And I know you didn't mean it. If I didn't, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:47.640 Laura checked the tapes on that. I heard a K, 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:49.960 but there should have been an H if I didn't 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:56.080 say it, Laurie, he definitely everybody just roll back the 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:57.440 tapes on that. Would you like to try that one 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:58.400 more time? Take too? 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:00.880 And I don't think I said that word, But here 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.839 you go, one of the most successful deep sea shipwreck hunter. 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:04.680 There we go. 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:06.680 It was the K of reck and the h of 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.960 hunters that melded in your previous take. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.320 We're twenty five. Yeah, of the major shipwrecks. He awarded 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.200 five Guinness World records, including the deepest shipwreck ever found. 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.120 So he is Indiana Jones. He's a marine scientist who 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.040 in a National Geographic Explorer's won prizes, et cetera. 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:24.280 And you'll love this. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.760 He's from Jersey, he's calling from he's reaching us from England, 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:29.600 but he's from Weehawk in Jersey, you bet. And when 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.320 I talked to him last week to say thanks for 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:32.599 coming on the show, he was so thrilled. 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.680 He didn't know you're in the New Jersey Hall of Fame. 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.599 So let's welcome. It's the theme song, Laurie. 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:41.440 I'm trying to imagine what the New Jersey Hall of 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:42.919 Fame theme song would be. 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:46.640 Big in Jersey. We gotta get out of this way, 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:47.760 you know, something like that. 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.480 David Mearns, let's say, hi, welcome to Really, no, really, 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:53.200 what have you found for us today? 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.600 I mean, you know, thank you? Are you currently? 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:57.159 I mean we're going to get into the whole, the 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.320 whole everything that's going on in the in the world 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.839 of this bounty hunter or archaeological explanation. 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:03.719 But what do you. 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.000 You are you engaged in a retrieval project or a 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:09.960 discovery project right now as we speak. 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:12.440 There's always something going on. 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:16.120 These these projects that I do take sometimes many years 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.360 to develop, so you always have some in various phases. 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.720 It could be the beginning phase. Which is your sort 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:23.640 of research. 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.440 Then at some point you think you've got a project 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.320 that's viable, and then you begin planning it, and then 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.400 you begin raising money and and and then if you're 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.960 lucky and you can or if you get hired, you 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:41.480 go out to see and generally the ratio now is 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.080 I probably spend six months for every one month. 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.400 That I actually go out to see. Yeah, earlier in 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.360 my career is a lot more often. 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:50.800 But is that six months. 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:54.680 Is that mostly research and development or is that fundraising 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:55.680 or some combination. 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:57.280 It's a combination. 0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:57.840 Yeah. 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.080 I've spent in the past as much as two years 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:03.880 researching something and then as much as four or five 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:09.240 years raising the funds. That's kind of kind of the extreme, 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.080 but they's sometimes it's gone even longer than that. 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.200 Yeah, why does it require not having really watched this? 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.240 I'm thinking, Okay, if you think you know where something is, roughly, 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.679 you need the equipment to find it, you need the boats, 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.160 you need some guys to go down in there get it. 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.200 But what makes it so ungodly expensive? What is the 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:28.400 big cost of doing this? 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:30.559 Two things? Really. 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:33.920 First off, the majority of what I do is in 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.120 deep water, and I mean deep water to the point 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:41.160 you can't dive. You can't use scuba divers or technical 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.040 divers or anything. In my career, I've only been involved 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.880 with one or two projects that literally I could get 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.360 in the water myself and work on. Everything else is deeper, 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.840 so that means robotics, that means deep toe sonars, that's 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:59.320 expensive ships. So you're looking at projects that go to 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.720 the hundreds of thousands to the low millions to actually 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.959 go out there and find something, So it's expensive. 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:07.480 The other part of it. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:11.800 Is you said, we know where it is, where it is, ok, 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:15.240 we know where to search. So there's a high risk 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:19.240 involved of you actually going out there looking for something 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.079 and not finding it. You know, if you fail for 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:24.560 some reason in my industry, you don't come back with 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.640 a seventy percent or an eighty percent result. 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:28.760 You come back with zero. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.640 So people are risking hundreds of thousands to millions on 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.640 either all or nothing better, and that's just to find 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.880 the wreck. Then you know, if your project is based 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.440 on the financials of actually recovering something and selling something, 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.400 then the risks are even higher. 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.000 So it is a very risky, very speculative industry. 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.000 Can you give us David before we get specific on 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:56.840 some of them, like the Columbia, which is out there 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:58.920 now that people are fighting over because there's so much 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.920 a lad valuable cargo. Can you just give us a 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.160 view of your world. How many guys are doing this? 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:07.559 Who's the I saw a guy with an ipatch, He's 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.440 got a TV show and he's raising money. It's like 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.320 it's like swash buggling. There's pirates, there's people dying, there's 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.800 people raising money, and then of course there's the countries 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.439 that go, wait a minute, this is ours. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.880 Yeah, you're right. It has a lot of different characters 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.559 in it. I consider myself a professional at one end 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.440 of the spectrum, and then it goes you know, you 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:35.319 have archaeologists, you have treasure hunters, you have all sorts 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:40.240 of characters, some who've never found anything in their careers, 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.280 but they raise money off of it and tried to 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.360 do it. And then you also have quite a lot 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.520 of amateurs out there. And I think this is really 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.800 the biggest change in the last twenty years. It's somewhat cool. 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:58.240 I look at it as almost a democratization of wreck hunting. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.720 And what is really allowed that to happen is the 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:07.520 availability of technology that is more affordable to amateur groups 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.160 that can go out there as a group of individuals 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.640 set their sights on a target, they either hire or 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:14.559 get a. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.080 Sonar or an RV and go out and find things. 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.360 And that is now happening almost on a weekly basis, 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:25.319 and that's really quite exciting. I think that it's not 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:26.960 just left to professionals like me. 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:29.440 There's a whole history. 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.200 Winnership goes down to why it went down, who the 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.640 people were on that ship, how they lived, what they were, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:37.400 what they did. One of the people here as are 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:40.360 their movie traps on the rooms that are where the 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.400 gold is, like you see in every Indiana Jones movie 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.439 where you move the one thing and you go, oh crap. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.200 I don't know what you find as an archaeologist when 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.840 you dig this stuff up the cemetery of history. 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.120 Yeah, well, each shipwreck has a different story. You're referring 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:02.320 to some of these Spanish ships, mainly Spanish vessels in 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.560 the Atlantic that are coming back from the New World 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:09.320 to Europe, like the off of Colombia, which is just 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.439 loaded with with with. 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.800 That is pure treasure, that is separate pressure. 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.520 Now there's two points of views on that one is 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.400 an economic view, which is the treasure hunting view, which 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.000 is all about maximizing profit finding these things and being 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.959 able to sell it. And then the other view with 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:33.880 an archaeological view, which is that the monetary value of 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.839 the treasure that could be literally gold coins or gold 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:42.160 bars or silver bars or jewels or whatever, it's almost 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:46.120 immaterial to the important of the historical importance archaeological importance 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.959 of of the rex side itself. So you know, one 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.000 pile of gold is no more important than say some 0:12:55.080 --> 0:13:00.400 spices that it was carrying, because those spices organic materials, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:05.560 if they survive, they tell more about the cultural history 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:07.079 of society. 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:08.120 At that time than the goal does. 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:14.280 Arguably so, and there's a battle between the archaeological community 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.800 and what I would call the treasure hunting community over 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.240 who has the rights to it, who controls it. And 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.440 the San Jose is a good example because that wreck 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:27.800 was initially found by people who had a treasure hunting mentality, 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.920 but now it's actually been controlled by the government and 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.120 they're trying to do it on a pure archaeological basis, 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.000 where no monetary value is extracted out of the billions 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.960 and billions of cargo that may ultimately be lifted from 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:42.559 the wreck site. 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:47.080 But I think I may just be missing it. 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.280 I don't understand it from a historical point of view, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.200 because I mean I do understand, Oh my god, there's 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.640 one hundred million dollars worth of valuable goods down there 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:04.280 if we can retrieve them. But without trying to sound snarky, 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.360 how am I advanced by knowing? In sixteen ninety one 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:11.240 the Spaniards used cilantro? I mean, is it something that 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.959 only physically understanding the wreck itself is going to reveal 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:20.520 what could be part of that site itself that would 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.480 educate me in a way that knowing where it left from, 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.360 what it was carrying, what the conditions were that sunk it. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.840 Why do I need to go down there for a 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.120 salvage or an exploration? What would I get from an 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.040 archaeological point of view. 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.680 Well, it'll tell you about It'll tell you about all 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:41.320 sorts of things. 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:42.760 It'll tell you about shipbuilding. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:47.240 Archaeologists loved to study the ship structures itself to be 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.520 able to understand how they were built, how the Spanish 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.720 ships different from the Dutch ships, different from the English ships, 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.840 where the wood came from, how it was financed, how 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.200 it was maintained. All of this stuff adds to our 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:06.000 knowledge of history about how people operated four or five 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.520 hundred years ago. If you look at the cargo, what 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.760 trade relationships were happening at the time. This most of 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.800 what would be carried on as San Jose came from 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.720 originated from other countries, not Columbia. Maybe it came from Peru. 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:26.040 And ultimately we're trying to learn about human history four 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.120 or five hundred years ago, and these ships are literally 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.440 time capsules. There is nowhere in the world that you're 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:38.120 going to find that accumulation of objects that can tell 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.640 this history other than at the bottom of the ocean 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.640 in these shipwrecks. And that's why they're so rare and 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.040 so important, and that's why they're fought over to a 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:51.800 very high degree between various constituencies that practice in this field. 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.760 So speaking of those fights, I would really love to 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.680 get your take on this, because we were Peter and 0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:57.160 I were. 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:00.920 Having fun with this notion in our introduction. 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.280 But if if you get the investors, and you do 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.280 the work, and you make the discovery, and you make 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.560 the salvage, and you reclaim these goods and. 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.880 Somebody goes uh uh uh, that's ours. 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.120 No, you know what, why didn't you diving next to me? 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.520 What I have was raising? What is your take on? 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:22.120 Who's these things. 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.600 Really do belong to our who should benefit from them? 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:26.320 Okay? 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.000 Well, the difference and why you find it hard to 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:32.480 understand is becoming it because it all comes down to 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:35.960 the law of the sea, which is a different field 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.520 of law, different history to it. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.480 Laurie, you're the recorder and the pan flute. We're going 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:46.160 to get a sea story, okay. 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.120 And the law, the law of the sea is unique. 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:53.480 Just because the ship sinks, you don't lose the rights 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.680 of ownership. And as long as you can trace back 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:02.520 the rights of ownership through history, even succeeding going from 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.960 one family to the next, those rights remain with the 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.639 original owner. So if somebody comes along and finds it 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.320 and tries the salvage it, they have to operate under 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.400 what we call the law of salvage, not the law 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:18.280 of finds. 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:22.040 The law of finds is losers. How do we used 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:22.639 to say when. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.399 Yeah, that doesn't work in the ocean, it's you have 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:29.879 to go back to the original owner. 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.320 So for example, again it's a very good shipwreck. To 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:34.240 look at this. 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:39.080 San Jose in Columbia. The Spanish government will make a 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.879 claim on that because at that time the country was 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.920 controlled by Spain. But on the other hand, where did 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.320 all the gold and silver and the jewels come from, 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:54.119 Not from Columbia, that came from different countries in South America. 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.240 And that's where you have this patrimonial aspect of it. 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.080 Where did it originate? So there will be various arguments, 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:03.840 and these things have on different shipwrecks have been tested 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:08.200 out in court and argued, and then things get really 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:12.359 complicated because every country almost has a different set of 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:16.720 rules despite their being an international basis. And this understanding 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.240 of the law of sea and salvage law, which by 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.439 the way dates back five thousand years five thousand years 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:28.480 to Rodean times. That's when this concept that something that 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:30.760 is lost in the ocean that has an original owner, 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.440 you don't lose those ownership rights. They extend in perpetuity 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.160 and if somebody comes along to salvage it, well, they 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.119 have a claim against it. It's not a claim of ownership, 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.639 it's a claim of salvage that they will be rewarded 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:47.320 reimbursed for their efforts. 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:49.360 For recovering and salvaging that material. 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.560 I've learned two things, Peter. One, no statue of the 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:57.000 limitations if it's in the water. Two anything you and 0:18:57.040 --> 0:18:59.760 I discard from now on, just freg it in the 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.119 world in the water in case it comes up. One 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.480 hundred years of my parts, those are my pedroid genes. 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.720 We're out of style. But you know what, if they're back, 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:08.480 those are mine. 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:13.280 So yeah, who was so in your world? Are there pirates? 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.440 Is their murder? Is their deception? Is there all kinds 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.040 of because I mean, who has those rights? Because Jason 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:20.760 I thought. 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:22.840 I mean, I'm sure there are people who plunder these 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.040 some of these wrecks and just take the gold and 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.280 don't tell anybody. I don't know how hard it is 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.879 to sell it on eBay or anywhere, because then people 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:33.080 can identify it and go, oh, that's from the SSS 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.399 sch Minitser or whatever it is, and you go, who's 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:36.960 the guy who did it? And they track it back, 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.240 which is how the people from Antiques Roadshow got in trouble, 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.240 because they traced it to who had it, who got it, 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:43.920 where it went, and then all of a sudden you're 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:44.399 in jail. 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:46.600 Is that world. Have you run across that? 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.480 Oh yeah, yeah, I've I've I've been through it all? 0:20:01.680 --> 0:20:03.399 Is that world? Have you run across that? 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.280 Oh yeah, yeah, I've, I've been through it all. 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:09.480 I mean one of the I remember one of the 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:13.280 first jobs I did off the coast of Norfolk, Virginia, 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:15.800 and I went out to see looking with these guys. 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.600 I was the sona operator and they were looking for 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:19.800 some Spanish ship I did. 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:21.440