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Speaker 1: Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Legally Brunette. I

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Speaker 1: will be your host today Emily Simpson with Shane. First

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Speaker 1: of all, if you guys haven't listened to our last episode,

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Speaker 1: it was on Jody Hildebrandt, which if you remember, she

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Speaker 1: had to do with the Ruby Frankie child abuse case,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of you DMed me. I know, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was interesting. Do you remember when we were

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Speaker 1: talking and Ruby Frankie's YouTube channel was called eight Passengers

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Speaker 1: and then you made a comment, why is it called

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Speaker 1: eight passengers because someone has to be driving, right, So

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Speaker 1: I had several people DM me that said they felt

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Speaker 1: as if it was the eight passengers and God was driving.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, I don't know, I just thought I maybe,

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Speaker 1: but I just thought I would relay that to you

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Speaker 1: because a lot of people heard that, and then that

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Speaker 1: was kind of the comment overall.

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Speaker 2: So that speculation, we don't know that that was the thinking.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, I don't know. I think that's

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Speaker 1: how people interpreted it, is that they were the eight

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Speaker 1: passengers and they were a very religious family and so

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Speaker 1: God was like guiding that right exactly.

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Speaker 2: And she's dumb okay, as proven by her behavior.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's move on. We wanted to do an

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Speaker 1: update on Nick Reiner. Also, not only did you guys

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Speaker 1: dmail out about the last case we did the Jody

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Speaker 1: Hildebrandt and Ruby Frankie situation. But as you all know,

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Speaker 1: my obsession with Alan Jackson runs deep. So when you

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Speaker 1: all saw the news that he withdrew from the Nick

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Speaker 1: Reiner case, I got I got tons of dms where

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Speaker 1: people were like, did you see this? What's going on?

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Speaker 2: Are you going to talk about it? Did you see this?

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Speaker 1: So anyway, so let's talk about it. Nick Reiner's arraignment

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Speaker 1: has been postponed once again after Alan Jackson quit moments

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Speaker 1: before the scheduled hearing. So this happened last Wednesday. Jackson

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Speaker 1: informed the court that he was stepping away from the

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Speaker 1: case and would no longer represent Reiner, who was charged

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Speaker 1: with murdering his parents. Jackson told the judge, we would

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Speaker 1: ask to withdraw as counsel of record. We have no

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Speaker 1: choice but to withdraw and ask to be relieved.

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Speaker 2: He didn't announce why, he just announced that he's removing himself.

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Speaker 1: Well, he had some things to say, but there is

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Speaker 1: no clear cut reason. A lot of people speculate, but

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Speaker 1: you know, to me, it's interesting that Reiner will now

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Speaker 1: be represented by Los Angeles County Deputy Public Defender Kimberly Green,

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Speaker 1: and the judge approved the substitution, and now the arraignment

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Speaker 1: is rescheduled for February twenty third. I think my personal

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Speaker 1: opinion is I think it had to do with money,

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Speaker 1: because that was my question all along.

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Speaker 2: What else would I have to do with? Well, some

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Speaker 2: people not disgusted by crimes, He's been around it.

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Speaker 1: No, but we'll talk about some speculation that some other

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Speaker 1: attorneys and.

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Speaker 2: Money mighty talks.

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Speaker 1: I My initial reaction when Alan Jackson first took the

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Speaker 1: case was who is paying this bill? Because I would assume,

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Speaker 1: and I'm probably correct, that his retainer would be seven

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Speaker 1: figures for a murder trial and with the complexities of

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Speaker 1: probably an insanity defense and expert witnesses and all of

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Speaker 1: the due diligence and that goes.

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Speaker 2: Into that does a lot of due diligence involved. When

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Speaker 2: your clients slit the victim's throats and they have a history,

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Speaker 2: it's pretty tough to defend, so it's going to take

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Speaker 2: a lot of work.

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Speaker 1: No, but I'm saying if you're going to have an

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Speaker 1: insanity defense. You're going to have to have a lot

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Speaker 1: of testing, and you know, all the experts suits insane.

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Speaker 2: That's the part I never really get. They're all insane.

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Speaker 1: During the brief appearance, when asked by the judge if

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Speaker 1: he understood the changing council, Reiner replied, oh, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: agree with that. Before being escorted back to the correctional facility.

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Speaker 1: Outside the courthouse, Jackson addressed reporters and he said, this morning,

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Speaker 1: I had to withdraw as Nick Reiner's counsel, adding that

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Speaker 1: quote circumstances beyond our control, but more importantly, circumstances beyond

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Speaker 1: Nick's control made it impossible for us to continue our representation.

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Speaker 1: I'm legally and ethically prohibited from all the reasons why.

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Speaker 1: I know that's a question on everyone's mind. I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: I'm legally and ethically prohibited. Is just it's attorney client privilege.

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Speaker 1: Whatever has to do with who's financing it or what's

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Speaker 1: going on behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: Client if he wants to break that privilege.

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Speaker 1: He emphasized that his departure should not be viewed as

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Speaker 1: a lack of support for his former clients. So he

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Speaker 1: says quote be clear, be very very clear. My team

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Speaker 1: and I remain deeply, deeply committed to Nick Reiner and

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Speaker 1: to his best interest, asserting that the legal process will

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Speaker 1: ultimately quote reveal the true facts of the circumstances surrounding

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Speaker 1: the case. Then he went further declaring, we've learned, and

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Speaker 1: you can take this to the bank. Is that pursuant

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Speaker 1: to the law in this state, Nick Reiner is not

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Speaker 1: guilty of murder.

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Speaker 2: Print that pursuant to the law exactly.

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Speaker 1: So pursuant to the law means he's I would assume my.

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Speaker 2: Illegal legal standard that it does not murder as.

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Speaker 1: In premeditated capital murder, because they're going to most.

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Speaker 2: Likely you know what he can't insanity defense Reiner's check.

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Speaker 2: That's what he couldn't take to the bank.

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Speaker 1: No, he can't take it Withdrew. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm just

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Speaker 2: saying that's the.

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Speaker 1: Reason no, Because that was my question from the very

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Speaker 1: very beginning, was why would Alan Jackson represent Nick We

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Speaker 1: know Nick Reiner doesn't have any money personally, or he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be living in his parents guesthouse, you know, And

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Speaker 1: I mean I don't think he was employed, and I

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Speaker 1: think they were. His parents were wealthy and well to

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Speaker 1: do and Hollywood elite, and I think they were continuing

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Speaker 1: to pay it as happened the.

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Speaker 2: Wealth to be able to hire Jackson.

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Speaker 1: That's what you're saying, right So to me, the only

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Speaker 1: way that there could be someone to cover Jackson's enormous

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Speaker 1: legal bill for a murder trial is if the estate

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Speaker 1: went to the other siblings and the siblings were willing

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Speaker 1: to pay.

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Speaker 2: At the settled a little bit, the emotions were set aside.

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Speaker 2: The fan family attorney, state law attorney, whatever, all got

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Speaker 2: together and started to really realize what they would be doing,

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Speaker 2: and that would probably be depleting all their worth for

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Speaker 2: a sibling that was probably troubled and killed the parents.

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Speaker 2: And it's not about trying to find him a better

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Speaker 2: opportunity and that's worth every penny. It's we're going to

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Speaker 2: get this guy like off from a criminal charge and

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Speaker 2: deplete all our funds when he killed our parents and

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Speaker 2: he clearly needs help.

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Speaker 1: It's also very telling that a public defender stepped in,

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Speaker 1: because if it was not an issue of money, then

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Speaker 1: you would probably have another big time elite attorney step

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Speaker 1: in in Alan Jackson's place, but it was not Kimberly Green,

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Speaker 1: not a public defender.

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Speaker 2: I think I heard her speak, make a public speech

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Speaker 2: or whatever, like for the press, and she was very quiet,

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Speaker 2: and she just not one to have public meetings and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Alan Jackson, she's not media trained.

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Speaker 2: Yeah he likes the microphone.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yes he does.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if she did so.

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Speaker 1: Some legal experts have wide in and said that maybe

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Speaker 1: Alan Jackson had no chance or had no choice but

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Speaker 1: to quit offering some insight. A California, New York based

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Speaker 1: entertainment attorney, her name is Lisa Bonner, told Page six

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Speaker 1: that Jackson's carefully chosen language strongly points to a professional conflict.

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Speaker 1: Referencing his remarks to the court, She said that such

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Speaker 1: phrases like we have no choice and circumstances beyond our

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Speaker 1: control are commonly used when an attorney is legally required

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Speaker 1: to step aside, such as an ethical or legal conflict.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I believe that. I don't really

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Speaker 1: feel like it's a conflict of interest. I still go

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Speaker 1: back to the whole money thing.

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Speaker 2: But what if it was something like like Alan Jackson's, like,

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Speaker 2: oh wait, you did kill your parents? Oh, like I

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Speaker 2: misunderstood it. Oh, I can't defend you like he got

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Speaker 2: a bachel later because I heard it as a criminal defenser,

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Speaker 2: and you never want to ask your clients they did it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, so you never you never ask. So you're saying,

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Speaker 1: maybe he just assumed that, you know, there's some third

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Speaker 1: party out there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was kind of lightly joking, but you know,

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Speaker 2: but that's the thing. You know, if you ask your

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Speaker 2: client if they did it, now, you can never say

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Speaker 2: that your client is not guilty or you know, innocent

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Speaker 2: or anything like that. Once you heard it, you can't

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Speaker 2: unhear it and you can't lie. So I talked to

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Speaker 2: some criminal defense attorneys and they don't want to ask

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Speaker 2: their client.

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Speaker 1: Because they don't want to have the knowledge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they'll only ask, maybe for what information they want,

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Speaker 2: but they're not going to say like, did you do it?

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Speaker 2: How long have you been planning this?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: What were your thoughts? Did it feel good when you did?

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Speaker 1: That's those questions. So another theory is well, and this

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Speaker 1: one makes a little bit of sense to me because

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Speaker 1: he's a high profile defense attorney, that he might have

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Speaker 1: a professional fallout from the Hollywood elite. The way I

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Speaker 1: understand it is there's only a handful of attorneys that

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Speaker 1: the elite in Hollywood would go to, and Alan is

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Speaker 1: on that very short listed. So because Rob Reiner and

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Speaker 1: his wife Michelle were very beloved within Hollywood, and this

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Speaker 1: is such a heinous crime to be defending, he'd defending, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so it could take him off of that high

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Speaker 1: profile list.

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Speaker 2: So if Rob Reiner killed his son, it would have

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Speaker 2: been okay to represent him.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know about that either. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: I think that's a stretch.

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Speaker 2: I think it's simply a money thing. And I think

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Speaker 2: Alan Jackson has every right to not represent someone that's

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Speaker 2: not going to pay his fee. That's just the way

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Speaker 2: it works.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess basically it could be that through representing

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Speaker 1: Nick Reiner there could be some reputational consequences, the backlashes.

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Speaker 1: He becomes a pariah in Hollywood because Michelle and Rob

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Speaker 1: were beloved. You know.

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Speaker 2: The question I have, which I don't think we'll ever

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Speaker 2: get an answer to, is how did he get one?

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Speaker 2: If it's a finance thing and there's no they cut

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Speaker 2: off funds or whatever, there's no money or whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: then what made him initially think he could take the case, Like,

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Speaker 2: did he jump on it before he looked into it.

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Speaker 2: Did the family initially say hey, yeah, we got it,

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Speaker 2: we got it, we want to we want our brother

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Speaker 2: taken care of. And then they she I don't know,

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Speaker 2: we'll never know, but.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll never know. But I that that interests me too.

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Speaker 1: Was it Nick Reiner that that reached out to Alan? Well,

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Speaker 1: Alan Jackson is legally barred from reaching out to him.

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Speaker 1: But I don't know how they came into contact. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if the family reached out to Alan. I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. I bet you, I

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Speaker 2: bet you. Some of the key parts were they came

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Speaker 2: to like things settled down, they talked to attorneys, they

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Speaker 2: learned how much their parents are worth, how much they're

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Speaker 2: going to get, how it's going to be dispersed, all

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Speaker 2: that stuff, all the logistics, and then maybe they had

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Speaker 2: a realization of you know, we're gonna lose all the money.

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Speaker 2: And it's not always a money thing, but it's like

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Speaker 2: we're gonna throw good money after like something that's not

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Speaker 2: really gonna be productive, and he's just gonna, you know,

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Speaker 2: and maybe he needs to be in prison. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So today on the podcast, we are going to

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Speaker 1: have a special guest come on who Shane introduced me to.

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Speaker 1: This is your special guest. And before she comes on,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about the Parkland shooting because she

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Speaker 1: was the judge in that case. So she goes by

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Speaker 1: Judge Liz and before she comes on, let's just talk

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Speaker 1: about the Parkland shooting. So on February fourteenth of twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, it

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Speaker 1: became the site of a devastating shooting when nineteen year

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Speaker 1: old Nicholas Cruz, a former student who had been expelled

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Speaker 1: for disciplinary issues, entered the campus and opened fire. Cruz

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Speaker 1: entered the school at two twenty one pm, beginning in

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Speaker 1: the freshman building, which housed approximately nine hundred students along

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Speaker 1: with faculty and staff. He drew his rifle and his

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Speaker 1: stairwell before moving on to a first floor hallway, where

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Speaker 1: he fired the first shots. Within about two minutes, eleven

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Speaker 1: people were killed and thirteen were wounded. Crews then moved

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Speaker 1: upstairs and discharged his weapon again, though he did not

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Speaker 1: hit anyone on the second floor. He continued to the

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Speaker 1: third floor, where he killed six more people and injured four,

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Speaker 1: spending less than a minute there. At two twenty eight pm,

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Speaker 1: Cruz left his rifle in a stairwell and exited the building.

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Speaker 1: He then went to a wal mart at two fifty pm,

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Speaker 1: stopped at his subway for a drink, and later visited

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Speaker 1: a McDonald's. He was located by Broward County police and

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Speaker 1: arrested on a nearby street approximately eighty minutes after the

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Speaker 1: shooting began. The Parkland shooting left seventeen people dead and

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Speaker 1: seventeen others injured, and the wake of the tragedy, survivors

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Speaker 1: organized the student led advocacy group Never Again MSD, focused

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Speaker 1: on addressing gun violence and promoting policy change. Florida responded

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Speaker 1: by passing new gun control laws, including raising the minimum

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Speaker 1: age for gun purchases and imposing mandatory waiting periods. The

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Speaker 1: shooting also sparked ongoing national conversations about mental health, school safety,

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Speaker 1: and gun regulations, as survivors and communities continued to grapple

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Speaker 1: with the emotional and psychological impact of the event. Let

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Speaker 1: me ask you a question. The high school I graduated

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Speaker 1: from in Ohio actually had a school shooting oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: when maybe ten years ago or so, after that happened,

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Speaker 1: they they armed teachers with guns.

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Speaker 2: Then the community they allowed teachers.

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what the terms are, but they

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Speaker 1: allowed teachers.

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Speaker 2: They didn't just hand out guns, no, but the teachers lounge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I don't know the process that took place,

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Speaker 1: but they initially after that happened, teachers were then permitted

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Speaker 1: to carry guns on campus. Then the community where I

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Speaker 1: used to live was outraged and there were tons of

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Speaker 1: meetings with school boards and everything, and I believe that

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Speaker 1: was eventually repealed and they're not allowed to do that anymore.

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Speaker 1: What is your take on that. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that's I mean.

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Speaker 2: As if I thought about this, I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I would think, at the very least, if professors are

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Speaker 2: going to carry, they certainly need to have training. You

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Speaker 2: don't just hand out guns. And I guess if my

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Speaker 2: children's teacher had a gun in class, i'd understand the

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Speaker 2: intention behind it, but I probably wouldn't like it. I

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Speaker 2: would think, I don't know, better to have the place

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Speaker 2: secured with offense as much as possible, and security on campus,

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Speaker 2: and then you have a you because what if what

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Speaker 2: if students find out, Oh, this teacher doesn't have a gun,

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Speaker 2: but this one does, but that one doesn't. But if

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Speaker 2: you have armed security, like a lot of private schools do.

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Speaker 2: I've been to some of those high schools that are like,

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Speaker 2: you know, run by the Jewish church or community and stuff,

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Speaker 2: and those are highly like protected, and it's awesome, you know,

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Speaker 2: and the kids feel this is a place that's kind

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Speaker 2: of sacred, right, it's a learning ground, right, it's safe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I always that is more effective.

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Speaker 1: I always felt as if a situation like that, if

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Speaker 1: you're arming teachers, you're adding more issues eventually down the line.

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Speaker 1: You know. The solution, I mean, there is no solution

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Speaker 1: that like there is other than it all comes down

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Speaker 1: to a mental health issue. I mean someone's not mentally healthy. Yea,

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Speaker 1: who does that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's I think we're talking about the defense mechanisms, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the treating mechanisms.

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Speaker 1: So the trial of Nicholas Cruz focus almost entirely on

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Speaker 1: sentencing rather than guilt, as he pleaded guilty in October

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one to seventeen counts of first degree

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Speaker 1: murder and seventeen counts of attempted murder. The penalty phase trial,

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Speaker 1: held in twenty twenty two, was tasked with determining whether

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Speaker 1: Cruz should receive the death penalty or life in prison

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Speaker 1: without parole. Prosecutors presented graphic evidence of the killings and

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Speaker 1: testimony from victim's families to argue for death, while the

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Speaker 1: defense emphasized mitigating factors, including Cruise's severe mental health issues,

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Speaker 1: fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, childhood abuse, and neglect. In October

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, the jury failed to unanimously agree

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Speaker 1: on the death penalty, resulting in an automatic sentence of

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Speaker 1: life in prison without the possibility of parole. The outcome

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Speaker 1: drew intense national attention and anger from victim's families, some

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Speaker 1: of whom criticized the jury and the defense strategy.

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Speaker 2: Because he didn't get the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: Because he did not get the death penalty because they

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Speaker 1: could not unanimously agree on it, and.

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Speaker 2: That's a Florida thing, then hunt they have to unanimously agree. So.

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Speaker 1: Judge Elizabeth Shearer served as a presiding judge over the

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Speaker 1: Parkland shooters criminal case in Boward County, including both the

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Speaker 1: pre trial proceedings and the twenty twenty two penalty phase

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Speaker 1: trial that determined Nicholas Cruz's sentence. She managed an unusually

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Speaker 1: emotional and high profile proceeding, repeatedly enforcing courtroom decorum, amid

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Speaker 1: graphic testimony and intense reactions from victim's families. After the

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Speaker 1: jury failed to unanimously agree on the death penalty, Judd

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Speaker 1: Shearer was legally required to impose the mandatory sentence of

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Speaker 1: life in prison without the possibility of parole, which she

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Speaker 1: did at Cruz's formal sentencing in November of twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Seven, so her hands were tied, she could not sentence

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Speaker 2: him to death right.

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Speaker 1: During a presentation to Miami law students in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: Judge Liz sharply criticized Cruse's public defenders, claiming they acted

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Speaker 1: unprofessionally in overstep boundaries. She said Cruise's defense team lost

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Speaker 1: their minds during the twenty twenty two trial and recalled

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Speaker 1: being friendly with lead defense attorney Melissa McNeil and her

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Speaker 1: team before the case, but said that during four years

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Speaker 1: of pre trial motions, three months jury selection, and the

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Speaker 1: three month trial, they all lost their perspective. According to

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Speaker 1: Judge Liz, the de offense, engaged in disruptive behavior, talking,

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Speaker 1: passing notes, using a printer, and even brushing their hair

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Speaker 1: while prosecution witnesses testified. Sounds like a high school classroom,

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Speaker 1: like this is how I picture Annabelle in school, Like

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Speaker 1: passing notes, brushing hair.

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Speaker 2: Which is unacceptable, exactly seventh grade class.

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Speaker 1: She added that one attorney during a recess raised her

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Speaker 1: middle finger at a camera broadcasting the trial, feeling it

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Speaker 1: threatened attorney client privilege. This consumed them to a point

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Speaker 1: where they started doing things in acting ways that I

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Speaker 1: had never seen before from any defense attorney that I

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Speaker 1: have ever dealt with, she said. Judge Liz resigned from

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Speaker 1: the bench in June of twenty twenty three, eight months

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Speaker 1: after sentencing Cruise to life without parole, but maintains that

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Speaker 1: this case had nothing to do with her resignation. She

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Speaker 1: had no choice in the sentencing since at the time,

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Speaker 1: Florida law required a unanimous vote from the jury to

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Speaker 1: impose the death penalty, and Cruises panels nine to three

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Speaker 1: in favor. Florida soon after change the law to allow

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Speaker 1: a death sentence if eight or more jurors recommended it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. I did not know that.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that? No, But that's why I asked earlier.

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Speaker 2: If it was it had to be unanimous by the

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Speaker 2: juror if that was a state law.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting.

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Speaker 2: Now it's a majority, yeah, well eight of eight or more. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: two thirds.

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Speaker 1: The prosecutors and victims families received hugs from Judge Liz

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Speaker 1: after the sentencing, which was a decision later criticized by

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Speaker 1: the Judicial Qualifications Commission for showing quote her emotions to

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Speaker 1: overcome her judgment. Judge Liz said she offered hugs to

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Speaker 1: the defense team as well, but was rebuffed. She defended

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Speaker 1: her actions, saying.

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Speaker 2: Quote, I regrets for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I regret that it the hugging was found to

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Speaker 1: be inappropriate, but maintained she oversaw the case properly. You

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Speaker 1: know that's that's.

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Speaker 2: Well, the case was over right.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting as I think as females, we are innately nurturers.

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Speaker 1: And if you sit in a courtroom for that long

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Speaker 1: and you hear all of this horrific things and the

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Speaker 1: families are sitting there, and then once it's over, it's

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Speaker 1: very difficult.

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Speaker 2: And how long was the trial?

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Speaker 1: I think it said three months.

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Speaker 2: See, that's a lot.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to be completely robotic and stone based from.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying a male judge would have been like, what, like, well,

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Speaker 2: he probably over and out. Yeah it's lunchtime.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, women are natural nurturers. So I

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Speaker 1: think her probably her just innate reaction was to and

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Speaker 1: she said she tried it. She tried to equally hug everyone,

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Speaker 1: according to her, so it was an equal distribution of hugs.

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Speaker 1: But she was rebuffed by the defense. So Judge U.

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Speaker 1: Liz highlighted during her left the.

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Speaker 2: Defense was probably smart by declining because they're like, maybe

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Speaker 2: they don't want to like, Okay, we know your intentions

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Speaker 2: are well, but this is bad optics, and my clients

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Speaker 2: can file for like, you know, some you know trial, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: sometime of miss trial. You know, he's got a life sentence.

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Speaker 1: Not one person on that commission has ever tried a

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Speaker 1: case like this, much less a case where you have

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Speaker 1: seventeen families who have spent a big part of a

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Speaker 1: four and a half years with you. She explained that

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Speaker 1: she had been a judge for nearly six years when

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Speaker 1: assigned to the case, and that no other Broward County

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Speaker 1: criminal judge at the time had handled a death penalty

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Speaker 1: trial Judge Liz described the challenge of maintaining composure amid

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Speaker 1: emotional testimonies, stating, quote, the men judges don't cry. The

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Speaker 1: female judge was not going to cry. She also commented

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Speaker 1: on Cruz's character, stating that he is a sociopath who

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Speaker 1: knows not one single bit of remorse for his actions

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Speaker 1: or the pain he calls the families and the Parkland community.

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Speaker 2: So, you know, I never that's something I never said, like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if he felt bad, he should have a lesser sentence,

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Speaker 2: because if you feel bad, like you commit a murder.

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Speaker 2: I know this was more than just a murder, but

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Speaker 2: you commit a murder, and then it's like if you

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Speaker 2: feel bad, it's less of a sentence. It's like, well no,

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Speaker 2: because the person's still dead, like the crime was still committed.

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Speaker 2: To me, I don't get that. Maybe in jail or

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Speaker 2: in prison, if that starts to show and they're educating

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Speaker 2: themselves and they're going to be a better person, in

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Speaker 2: productive member of society, and you'd be better off for

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Speaker 2: you know, putting them out in society where they can

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Speaker 2: be productive and they're not just taking tax dollars, but

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Speaker 2: they're contributing then maybe, but at the sentencing hearing, I

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Speaker 2: never really understood that. I know that's the way it works, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I don't get that.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying you would, You're okay during parole hearings

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Speaker 1: that they use the like an indication of remorse as

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Speaker 1: something to take into consideration during a parole hearing, because

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Speaker 1: you're saying after the fact, after the sentencing, if they've

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Speaker 1: shown remorse and they've tried to better themselves, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Then and then it also but you're saying.

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Speaker 1: It shouldn't be criteria during this initial sentence and.

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Speaker 2: Also with the victim's statements, which I know is a

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Speaker 2: therapeutic thing also, and I would if that happened to

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Speaker 2: me and I was, you know, family to someone that

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Speaker 2: was a victim, and I had to give a victis

437
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 2: to name, you better believe I would. So I'm not

438
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: opposed to that. But it's like, because there's more heartache,

439
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,239
Speaker 2: they should have more jail time. Does that mean if

440
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: there was less heartache and this person that was killed

441
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: had no family or no victim statements because they were

442
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 2: not really engaged with anyone in their family and their

443
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: family didn't come, then that would person would get a

444
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 2: lesser sentence. It's still a life that was taken. So

445
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,880
Speaker 2: I kind of don't really know how that comes into

446
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: play with sentencing, but I know it does, and I

447
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: know it's you know, there's probably more to it than

448
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 2: what I'm just saying.

449
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: Well, because at the end of the day, both sides

450
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 1: want to get to your pull your heart strings of

451
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:32,719
Speaker 1: the jury.

452
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 2: Oh in some way, okay, yeah, yeah, if the jury

453
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: is involved in sensing. But all the time it is

454
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: to judge. But you know, everyone's sorry when they get caught, right,

455
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 2: So that makes it hard to believe. I remember, I, uh,

456
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: I caught shoplifters, right, that was one.

457
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: Of my jobs. Yes, I love Shane stories. We could

458
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: do a whole podcast.

459
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 2: I was a store investcart and every time it was

460
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: their first time, yes, and they were sorry and they

461
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 2: would never do it again. Right, But that's that's not

462
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 2: true because I'd seen him before, right, I'd like, now,

463
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 2: I've seen you many times coming here, and stud just

464
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: couldn't catch you. Now I did. It's not your first time,

465
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 2: and they're always sorry when they get caught.

466
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: You know, Shane is an interesting man, and I don't

467
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: know if the majority of you out there understand how

468
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: interesting he is.

469
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 3: You know.

470
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: Also, by the way, I had a lot of people

471
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: send me dms and they wanted more information about your

472
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 1: your your mission because you didn't give away a lot

473
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: of information when we talked about Jody Hildebrandon Ruby, Frankie.

474
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 1: You know, you did get you touched a little bit

475
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: on the fact that you did go on a mission

476
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: with the LDS Church, that you went to Portugal, that

477
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: you went to Cape Verd but you didn't give away

478
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: a lot more. And I had a lot of people

479
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: reach out and ask if we could do an in

480
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: depth podcast just on you and your mission, and someday,

481
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: maybe someday we take a deep dive into Shane Simson.

482
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: Shane also some of my other favorite stories, some of

483
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: his other career choices that people I don't know about.

484
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 1: When you did he did past control at once, that's

485
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: time I saved up for my mission. He did past

486
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: control before he went on his mission, And those are

487
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: some of my favorite Shane Simpson stories. So anyway, maybe

488
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: we'll take a deeper dive into Shane Simpson. So Judge

489
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: Liz graduated from University of Miami School of Law before

490
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: working for the State Attorney's Office for the seventeenth Judicial

491
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: Circuit Broward County, Florida. Shearer was first chair in over

492
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: seventy five jury trials handling charges of murder, attempted murder,

493
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: armed home invasion, robbery, and arson. She worked as a

494
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: prosecutor for eleven years before she was appointed to the

495
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: Florida Circuit Court bench by Florida Governor Rick Scott. She

496
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: spent two years presiding over family court cases before being

497
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: assigned by the chief judge to the Circuit Felony Division.

498
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: Judge Liz became widely known for presiding over the Parkland

499
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: shooting case, which we just discussed, which was the biggest

500
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: mass shooting case to go to trial in American history.

501
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: It's bigger than Columbine. How many were killed in Columbine,

502
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'd have to look that up.

503
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: I don't know, but Columbine was as far as I remember,

504
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: like prior to that, there didn't seem to be such

505
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: a school shooting. I don't Also, security camera something so dramatic,

506
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: the way they dressed up, the way it was the

507
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,919
Speaker 2: students that went in, and you know, how did the

508
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 2: parents not know? And you know, with media being more accessible,

509
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 2: it spread faster. So I don't know. To me, that

510
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: always felt like that kind of sparked school shootings, but

511
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 2: at least that that's also just from my generation and

512
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: what I've seen.

513
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: Well, No, I believe that there's a lot of truth

514
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: to that. I don't There might have been some school

515
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: shootings prior to that, but I don't know if they had.

516
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if they were widely known or talked about.

517
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: Columbine was definitely.

518
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: And it almost like came on the news in real

519
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: time almost you know, everyone was outside the school trying

520
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: to figure out what's going on, and bombs and lots.

521
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: It wasn't one handgun, right, they had lots of weapons.

522
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: You know, they were gonna you know, it was like

523
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: an army kind of what was.

524
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 1: Well thought out and well planned. I think they planned

525
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: for over a year.

526
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: I believe probably. Yeah.

527
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: So, Sheer's career plan was to retire from the bench

528
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: after ten years in order to go into private practice

529
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: at her family's law firm, but at the request of

530
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: Chief Judge Jack Tudor, she agreed to stay until the

531
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 1: completion of the Parkland case. Shortly after the trial concluded,

532
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: she followed through with her career plan, retired from the

533
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: bench and now works as a partner at Conrad and Shearer,

534
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: specializing in civil litigation. Judge Sheer also works as a

535
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: legal analyst, making frequent TV appearances on Fox News, CBS

536
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 1: News Nation, Long, Crime Court TV, and now Legally Brunette.

537
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: She recently started her own YouTube channel. You can find

538
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: her at the Judge Liz, which is how she came

539
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: on our radar because Shane watched.

540
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 2: Her YouTube ita of her in the courtroom before, Yeah,

541
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: before her YouTube but then you.

542
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: Also watched some of her YouTube.

543
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: Channel, right, and then somehow it popped up and so

544
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: I got one of it.

545
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, where's she? On her YouTube channel, she shares

546
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,959
Speaker 1: her insight on a variety of legal issues and cases. So, Hi,

547
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: Judge list, thanks for coming on Legally Brunette today. I

548
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: appreciate it. It's nice to chat with you. Thanks, thank

549
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: you for having me. Of course, we've actually wanted to

550
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: have you on for a while. Shane, my husband Shane

551
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: uh was watching your YouTube videos and that's how we

552
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: were like, oh, we should have her on the podcast.

553
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: So we enjoyed watching.

554
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 3: You and I'm so great.

555
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, and you do have a YouTube channel. It's

556
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: called at the Judge Liz correct if anybody wants to

557
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: find you, correct, I know on your YouTube, do you

558
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: just kind of take whatever's currently going on and kind

559
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: of talk about it from a judge perspective or just

560
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: a legal perspective. Is that kind of what you like

561
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: to do?

562
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 3: Yes, I try to get I try very hard. And

563
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 3: you all know because you do this, it's hard to

564
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 3: think of topics that not everybody's doing all the time, right,

565
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 3: So I try to take a case it's popular, that's

566
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 3: in the news that people are very interested in, and

567
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 3: I try, you know, my best to think of an

568
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 3: aspect that no one else is covering. Right of course,

569
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 3: like I said, you all know how hard that can be,

570
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 3: especially if you don't have if you're not big enough

571
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 3: to have you know, producers and writers and things like that.

572
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: But I try very hard to think of something that's

573
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 3: interesting that has not been talked about at nauseum.

574
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I would think because I feel like a

575
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: lot of content creators, I mean, they don't have legal backgrounds.

576
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: So it's like everybody's talking about, you know, the Blake

577
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: Lively case, and everybody talks about Diddy and everybody talks

578
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: about the big things that are out there. But I mean,

579
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: you're You're not only an attorney, you're a judge, and

580
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: so you can have like that very deep perspective that

581
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: other content creators can't. So yes, you know, I think

582
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: that's always interesting that you can take a deeper dive

583
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: into that. So anyway, before you came on, we were

584
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: talking about the Parkland shooting, and you know, I just

585
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: had a I had. First of all, I didn't realize

586
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: it was twenty twenty two. For some reason, I felt

587
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: like it was farther back in time, but it actually

588
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: was pretty recent.

589
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: The sentencing was actually in twenty twenty.

590
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: Three, was it? The sentencing was in twenty twenty three. Now,

591
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: I know that you were tired right after that. Was

592
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: that that was a choice that you had made previously

593
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: though not because of the case? Correct?

594
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 3: So yeah, so I had, I had. I was appointed

595
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 3: to the bench at a young age. I was I

596
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: thirty five or thirty six, so I knew that wasn't

597
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: going to be my resting place, so to speak, so

598
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 3: I wanted to get the experience. I was very flattered

599
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 3: for the appointment, and I loved doing what I did,

600
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 3: but I knew there was a shelf life. I have

601
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: a family that has a very successful law form in

602
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: Fort Lauderdale. It's always been my dad's dream to have

603
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: me come help him run his firm with my brothers,

604
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 3: and so I had put him off for twenty years,

605
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: ten years as a prosecutor, in ten years as a judge.

606
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: So I told him at the end of at the

607
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: end of the Parkland case, I gave the chief judge

608
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 3: my word that I would stay through that case so

609
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 3: that the case would have continuity. But at the end

610
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: I was going to resign and perhaps take part in

611
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 3: my family business or do some other creative type things.

612
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: So that decision was made before. I can tell you

613
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: that the Parkland trial solidified my decision. In other words,

614
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: if I was on the cusp of should I do

615
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: it now or should I wait a few years, I

616
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: felt as though, you know what, I need to see

617
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 3: things and hear things that are not the worst of

618
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 3: the worst, because as a criminal judge, especially presiding over

619
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 3: a case like that, you hear things that are just

620
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 3: absolutely tragic, and you hear the worst parts of society

621
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: as opposed to the best. And you know, I like

622
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: to tell people. I've learned in my profession that most

623
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: people are good, most people are kind, most people would

624
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 3: lend a hand if they if they had the opportunity.

625
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 3: There are very few and far between are the criminals,

626
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: hardened criminals like the Parkland shooter. So I just felt like,

627
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 3: you know what, I need a new, fresh perspective right now.

628
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 3: I'm in civil I do civil litigation now, and it's

629
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: boring and I'm not sure it's the fresh perspective that

630
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 3: I was anticipating or needing. But at least I'm not

631
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 3: dealing with, you know, the death of children, or shootings

632
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: or just people, the worst people and the worst behavior,

633
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 3: if that makes sense.

634
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: You were offered where they came to you and they

635
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 1: wanted you to preside over that case, and you know seventeen,

636
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, people were affected by that. How do you

637
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: prepare for something like that. I mean, that's a huge trial.

638
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: I mean you're dealing with seventeen families that were affected.

639
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: So it came out during the trial that I was

640
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: randomly assigned. I'm not afraid to say now because it's

641
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 3: been long enough. It was random, But the chief judge

642
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: had told me that if you don't get assigned this case.

643
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 3: I'm going to assign it to you because I had

644
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 3: the most experience and I knew how to handle myself

645
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 3: in front of the cameras. A lot of judges really

646
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 3: wanted the attention, the media attention. I had judges that

647
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: were close to retirement that were like calling me, begging me,

648
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 3: can I cover the arrangement? Can I cover this? Because

649
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 3: they wanted to be on TV? And the chief judge

650
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: knew that I wouldn't do that, that I would take

651
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 3: it seriously, that I wouldn't show both. So I knew

652
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: it was coming my way. I you know, you can't

653
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: prepare for it. At first, I said, you know what,

654
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: this is like any other case. He's not getting any

655
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 3: special treatment. I'm going to run this this case like

656
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 3: I do any other case. There's going to be deadlines.

657
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: You know, I'm gonna hold their feet to the fire

658
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 3: on both sides as far as discovery goes. He's gonna

659
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 3: come in with all the rest of the inmates. He's

660
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: gonna sit in the box like the rest of the inmates.

661
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 3: And then, very very quickly it was brought to my

662
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 3: attention judges is not a regular case. We can't bring

663
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: him in with the other inmates because it's dangerous to him.

664
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: Somebody's going to try to kill him. We have to

665
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: have him in a separate hearing where nobody else is

666
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 3: in the courtroom. We have to be able to accommodate

667
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 3: all the different lawyers on both sides. So you know,

668
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: my point of view is I'm going to handle this

669
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: like any other case.

670
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 4: Then I realized because of the specific circumstances with all

671
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 4: of the victims' family members that wanted to be present

672
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 4: for all of the hearings, and the network's live streamed

673
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 4: every single minute of every single hearing for five years,

674
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 4: and the fact that there was such a security risk

675
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 4: on the part of the shooter, which a lot of

676
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 4: people would think, well, who cares.

677
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 3: Well, the sheriff's office in any state or county, they

678
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 3: do care because if an inmate is killed or badly

679
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: hurt on their watch, it leaves them open to liability,

680
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 3: and they certainly did not want that to happen. So

681
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: there were all kinds of precautions that were taken. So

682
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 3: I just I went in with a mindset, this is

683
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 3: just like any other case, and I tried to keep

684
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:26,399
Speaker 3: that that mindset. You know, this is like any other case.

685
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 3: I'm going to call balls and strikes. I'm going to

686
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: deal with what's what's put in front of me, and

687
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 3: then you know, we'll go from there.

688
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, were you surprised by the jury's decision that he

689
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: did not get the death penalty? So you were was

690
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: that shocking for you?

691
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 3: So okay, yes and no. So my court reporter, who's

692
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 3: been a court reporter for like thirty years, she's the best.

693
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 3: She's worked with all of the judges who has tried

694
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 3: death penalty cases. So she has been the court reporter

695
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 3: for let's say, like I don't know, twenty five to

696
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 3: fifty death penalty cases and so many trials, and I

697
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 3: was lucky enough to have her. So she, you know,

698
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: the core reporter sits in front of the bench, right,

699
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 3: and they have a direct view to the jury.

700
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: Right.

701
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 3: I'm on the bench. I'm up here, so I'm sort

702
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 3: of looking down on them. So if they see me

703
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 3: looking at them, they sort of look up and smile.

704
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 3: The court reporter is a couple of feet from the

705
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 3: jury and sits just you know, five feet from them,

706
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: so she's watching them. So she had told me throughout

707
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 3: the trial judge, there's gonna be a problem with journal

708
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 3: number so and so. And I said, what do you mean,

709
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: and she said, I can tell by the way she

710
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 3: looks at the shooter. She said, he kind of just

711
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 3: makes a face like like she's so sorry for him.

712
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: And I said, Trisha, I don't want to hear it,

713
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: because there's nothing anybody can do.

714
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: If she's you know, sympathetic, it is what it is.

715
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 3: And you know so. But she kept telling me that,

716
00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 3: and as much as I wanted to believe that she

717
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 3: was mistaken, because even if a jury is sympathetic, they

718
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 3: shouldn't be staring at the defendant and making like, you know,

719
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 3: like mom eyes and kind of like you know, sad

720
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: faces and that type of thing. They should be professional,

721
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 3: which mosturs are. So when the jury was out deliberating,

722
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: which was only for I think it was like five hours,

723
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 3: and considering the amount of evidence in the number of victims,

724
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 3: it was a very short amount of time. But during

725
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 3: that time, my chambers were like right down the hallway

726
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 3: from the jury, and the we had armed deputies and

727
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 3: so they would come into my chambers, like, Judge, the

728
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 3: jurors are screaming, they're pounding they're pounding on the doors.

729
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 3: They want to get out. They say they can't. They

730
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 3: have to get away from her. They need a break.

731
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: What do you want us to do? And anytime you

732
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: hear that kind of thing as a judge, it's like,

733
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 3: oh boy, this is not good. And then I found

734
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: out later on from my bailiffs that this particular juror

735
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 3: would not engage with any of the other jurors. Like

736
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 3: they go to a hotel at night and they're all

737
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 3: sitting at the table eating dinner. She goes to her

738
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 3: own table. She has her arms crossed, she's giving all

739
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 3: of these signs like she doesn't even want to participate

740
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: in with the rest of the of the members. So

741
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 3: when I got to the verdict and it was so quick,

742
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 3: you know, it's hard. It's hard to guess what a

743
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 3: jury's going to do. Especially this was my first death

744
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 3: penalty case. I had tried capital cases, but not death penalty.

745
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: So I mean, the evidence, as you all know, that

746
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 3: the the aggravating factors have to outweigh the mitigating factors,

747
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 3: and in my opinion, my legal opinion, the aggravating factors

748
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 3: grossly outweighed the mitigating In fact, there was the mitigating

749
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 3: evidence was so just. I mean, one of the mitigating

750
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 3: factors was Nicholas Cruz is a human being. I mean really,

751
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: because basically you have to include anything that the defense wants.

752
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 3: So that was a mitigating factor.

753
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: Can we just clarify for just the listeners, and mitigating

754
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: factors means the evidence that the defense presents that would say, okay,

755
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: he was wasn't there some evidence of abuse and things

756
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: like that.

757
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 3: Sure, So the state will come forward and they will

758
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 3: present aggravating factors, and they're statutory and the very similar

759
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 3: state by state. Because I've looked at them. One of

760
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 3: them is heinous, atrocious, and cruel. In other words, And

761
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 3: I hate to give this example, Emily, but if I

762
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 3: came into your office right now and shot you in

763
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 3: the face, that would not be considered heinous, atrocis and cruel.

764
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 3: If I tied you up and tortured you for an

765
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 3: hour and a half and then played Russian Roulette at

766
00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 3: the back of your head until one boat finally came out,

767
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 3: that would probably be considered heineous choices and cruel. So,

768
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 3: as I've explained to my daughter, who's always very curious

769
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 3: about this, not every murder qualifies for the death penalty.

770
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 3: It has to be the worst of the worst. So

771
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: some of the aggravating factors were, this shooter came in

772
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: with a high powered assault rifle. Those the ammunition and

773
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 3: that type of rifle. They're about this big and I

774
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: would say about two and a half inches, and they

775
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 3: are made to tumble. So imagine a tumble weed going

776
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 3: through your body, so it just shreds whatever's in front

777
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: of it. So if I shot you with a regular gun,

778
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: it would go maybe through and through, maybe the bullet

779
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: would enter your flight, but this type would basically tumble

780
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 3: weed all the way through your body until it came out.

781
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 3: The fact that he planned this, the fact that it

782
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 3: was so high premeditated, a higher level of premeditation. The

783
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 3: fact that he went up and down the hallways shot

784
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 3: some people, and and then when he went back and

785
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 3: made the second pass through, he realized that certain people

786
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 3: weren't dead yet, and then he shot him again. Like

787
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 3: the terror, the fact that it was done on a

788
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 3: school grounds. All of these things were aggravating factors. The

789
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 3: fact that he killed so many people each victim can

790
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 3: be an aggravating factor in the other victim's case. Okay,

791
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 3: so the state presented all of the aggravating factors. The

792
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 3: mitigating factors are by the defense and their factors, like, look,

793
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 3: this person is not like you and I. He or

794
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 3: she has special circumstances that you should take into account

795
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 3: so you can understand the person and know more about

796
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 3: them why they committed the crime. And then you should

797
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 3: weigh that according to the aggravating factors and say which

798
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 3: one outweighs the other. Many people are under the mistaken

799
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 3: belief that Nicholas Cruz came from an abusive home. It was,

800
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 3: in fact the oppice it he was. He and his

801
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 3: younger brother were both adopted at birth by a lovely

802
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 3: couple who wanted nothing more but to have kids, but

803
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 3: they hadn't been able to, so they adopted them. They

804
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 3: gave them every kind of thing physical and emotional that

805
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: they could think of. His father died when he was

806
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 3: rather young, but his mother was always there, you know,

807
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 3: And as he became more and more troubled, she had

808
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: him in therapy, she had him in you know, special programs.

809
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 3: She she got him tested, she she she worked with

810
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 3: the schools for absolutely not. That's the mistake and belief.

811
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: This woman was a saint. She tried everything. At the end,

812
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: it got so bad, even with all of these services

813
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 3: in place, that she would walk around the house and

814
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 3: she was terrified. She was terrified of him and his

815
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: younger brother because they just they got they got a

816
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: kick out of terrorizing this this lady. But no, she tried.

817
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: She tried very hard. They lived in a nice area

818
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: of Parkland, so that wasn't that's that's sort of a

819
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 3: mistake and belief. What the defense did try to present

820
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,879
Speaker 3: is that he he suffered from fetal alcohol syndrome. The

821
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 3: problem with that was that there was no evidence of it.

822
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 3: His marconium I think, I believe that's what you call

823
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 3: the like the umbilical cord stuff. I'm not very good

824
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 3: at science, but it tested negative. He didn't have any

825
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: of the signs. There's all these factors that you have

826
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 3: to have all of these symptoms. He didn't. He didn't

827
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 3: even have let's say there's I can't remember off the

828
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 3: top of my head, but let's say in order to

829
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 3: be diagnosed with this illness, you have to have like

830
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 3: five factors. He didn't even have two.

831
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: So you're saying, you're saying absent all these possible mitigating factors,

832
00:43:59,040 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: he still didn't get the.

833
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: Correct he was a psychopath.

834
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: Do you think it was the one juror that you

835
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier. Do you think that she because

836
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: I know it was nine to three, So do you

837
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: think maybe she managed to convince to other people or

838
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 1: something and she was kind of the cancer in this

839
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: jury pool.

840
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 3: I don't think it was nine to three. I think

841
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 3: because this particular juror wrote me a note after the

842
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 3: verdict in its public record, and she said, Judge, all

843
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 3: the jurors are accusing me, saying that I hadn't made

844
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 3: my mind up from the beginning, and I wouldn't deliberate,

845
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 3: and I just want you to know that that I

846
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 3: deny that fully, and etcetera, and et cetera. There were

847
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 3: two jurors, from my understanding, that had not made up

848
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 3: their mind, and so people put the one hold out.

849
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 3: I wouldn't even call her a holdout. I would I

850
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 3: would say she she she got I'm that jury to hijacket.

851
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: I believe because all of her answers in a definitely case,

852
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: the lawyers are Aret vadier Or. Jury selection went on

853
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 3: for I think it was two months of jury selection,

854
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 3: so each juror was questioned, I mean at nauseum, to

855
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 3: the point where you're like, oh, how many times can

856
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 3: you ask the same question? So you would have to

857
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 3: be really, really good to be able to answer all

858
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 3: of the questions to gives. You'd have to try very

859
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 3: hard if you were not fair. Okay, if you said

860
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,320
Speaker 3: I'm anti death penalty or I'm absolutely pro death penalty

861
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: and I think this guy should get the death penalty

862
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,359
Speaker 3: and I can keep an open mind. If you had

863
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 3: either extreme view, you would have to try very very

864
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 3: hard to answer the questions from the lawyers on both

865
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 3: sides to be able to make it through to the end.

866
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 3: If that makes sense, because both sides get hours and

867
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 3: hours to question each your individually and ask them in

868
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 3: many different ways, and the jurors are told, listen, if

869
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 3: you have a belief that you're against the death penalty,

870
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: that's fine, that's okay, but not in this case, because

871
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,439
Speaker 3: you have to at least you don't have to say yes,

872
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 3: I'll give them the death penalty. You just have to

873
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 3: say I will keep an open mind. I understand that

874
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 3: my duty, my legal duty, and I just have to

875
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 3: be willing to be fair and impartial. And consider the factors.

876
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 3: That's it. You don't have to say yes, I will

877
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: give the death penalty or no I won't. You just

878
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: have to say I will participate in the legal process,

879
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 3: have the discussion, and if you have a belief that's firm,

880
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 3: like I don't believe in the death penalty, that's okay,

881
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 3: but you need to be a different case.

882
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 2: That makes sense because if if you were a jury

883
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: member for a case that was over a crime that

884
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 2: the the juror member didn't believe was criminal, right, like

885
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 2: marijuana or something, and they felt that that should be

886
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 2: legal and it's not, then obviously they're not going to

887
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 2: consider issuing any punishment or finding anyone guilty of a

888
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: crime they don't believe it's a crime to begin with.

889
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 2: So it's the same with death penalty. It's not a

890
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 2: matter of there's nothing wrong with being opposed to the

891
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 2: death penalty. The problem is if you're opposed to the

892
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 2: death penalty, then you won't even consider it. And that's

893
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 2: what needs to be considered, whether it's right or wrong

894
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: in this case.

895
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 3: And we tell them, listen, there's absolutely nothing wrong with

896
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 3: being opposed to the death penalty under any circumstances. There's

897
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:36,879
Speaker 3: a lot of people that believe that. There's a lot

898
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 3: of states that are like that. But in Florida, we

899
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 3: have the death penalty. So you have to be able

900
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 3: to say you'll consider it. You have to be fair.

901
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 3: I'll give you a great example. So the head of

902
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 3: the sexual battery unit at the State Attorney's office here

903
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 3: in Broward County never went in Roward County. The hierarchy

904
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 3: is homicide is the sort of considered the highest trial unit.

905
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 3: It's the most elite trial unit. So as a trial lawyer,

906
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 3: if you want to devote your life to public service,

907
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 3: be a prosecutor, your goal would be to get to

908
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 3: get to homicide. So I once asked him, why aren't

909
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: you even homicide? Why have you been in the sexual

910
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 3: battery unit for so long? And he said, because I

911
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: don't believe in the death penalty. And that's a perfect example.

912
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 3: He's a prosecutor. He has no trouble prosecuting cases. He

913
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 3: believes in the law. But he knows that if I

914
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 3: don't believe in the death penalty, I can't go to homicide.

915
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 3: I can't make a decision whether or not the state's

916
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 3: going to seek the death penalty because I don't believe

917
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 3: in it.

918
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: Person take over correct.

919
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 3: But I think someone who can recognize that even as

920
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 3: a prosecutor, I give that person a lot of credit

921
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 3: because you know, not everybody has the same beliefs as judges.

922
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 3: It's hard.

923
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: Also, I'll tell you, was the jury decision difficult for you?

924
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 3: I was frustrated because we spent so much time and

925
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: I did not feel that. I believe what happened is

926
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: there were a lot of younger jerors, and I believe

927
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 3: that this woman was so adamant that she wouldn't discuss

928
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 3: it that they just threw up their hands and gave up.

929
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 3: And in my opinion, there were thirty five victims if

930
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 3: you divide, I did the math one time. They gave

931
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 3: less than like ten minutes of consideration to each victim.

932
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 3: And by the way, there were victims who got it

933
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 3: much worse than other victims, so the aggravating factors would

934
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 3: be worse. For example, I always call him little sweet

935
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 3: Peter Wang. He was count seventeen of the indictment. He

936
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 3: was holding the door on the third floor for the

937
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 3: mass of students to get out. Will this shooter is

938
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 3: heading towards them. Shooting into the crowd. He was shot

939
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 3: something like seventeen times. His skull was completely I mean

940
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 3: it was held together by skin. To me, someone like

941
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 3: that's much more aggravating than someone who was perhaps shot once.

942
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 3: So the fact that they did not even take the

943
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 3: time to go through each victim. And also I mentioned

944
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 3: there were two or three victims that were shot once

945
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,800
Speaker 3: and would have lived, and they were trying to crawl

946
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,720
Speaker 3: to safety, into the bathroom or trying to get away.

947
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: And what he did was he made two passes. On

948
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 3: each floor. There was a coach and at least two

949
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: children who were crawling to safety, and he didn't get them.

950
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 3: The first pass. There was a video of a coach

951
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 3: who had been shot numerous times, and he was trying

952
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 3: to get up. And I'll never forget it. And he's

953
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 3: trying to get up, and he's trying to get up

954
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 3: and and and I'm imagining this guy is just he's got,

955
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 3: he's got he's got two kids and a grand baby

956
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 3: on the way, and a wife who just absolutely adores him,

957
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 3: and I and I could just you can tell he's

958
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 3: trying to get up. He he's hey, I'm going to

959
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 3: get out of here. For my family, you know, and

960
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,360
Speaker 3: he's get and he actually got up and he managed

961
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 3: to walk a few feet when when the shooter made

962
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 3: the second pass, and even after he shot him again

963
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: light on him two or three times, he still struggled

964
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 3: and he's still moving. And you can just see this

965
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 3: guy was a veteran, a marine, wonderful family man, wonderful coach,

966
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: you know, barged right in trying to save his kids,

967
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,359
Speaker 3: and he didn't make it. Now, certainly there's a lot

968
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 3: more aggravating factors to that murder than there would be

969
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 3: to another person who was shot once. So yes, I

970
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 3: was frustrated. I don't believe that. I think that the

971
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 3: attitude of the one juror made it so that the

972
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 3: other jurors were just because they knew if they don't

973
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 3: all agree, if it's not unanimous, by the way that

974
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 3: law was changed, like I don't know. Thirty days after the.

975
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: Verdict, I know we read that I was going to

976
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: ask you about that.

977
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 3: That was because of my case. Basically the law. The

978
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 3: Florida Supreme Court had written an opinion maybe two years

979
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 3: before the Parkland shooting case went to trials, saying that

980
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 3: the Constitution does not require the verdict to be unanimous

981
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:57,359
Speaker 3: as far as life versus death. But the and by

982
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 3: the way, when I read that opinion as a judge,

983
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 3: I thought to myself, that's scary, Like I almost panicked

984
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 3: because I thought that means it's going to be up

985
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 3: to me. And I'm Catholic. Catholics are anti death penalty.

986
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 3: I can tell you personally, I am not anti death penalty.

987
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, being the person that essentially

988
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 3: pulls the trigger, that's a huge responsibility. So the the

989
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 3: the Florida legislature never codified that opinion. They just never

990
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 3: got to it. I couldn't help but think, you know,

991
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 3: maybe I rushed things. Maybe I didn't give you know,

992
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 3: as a judge, you have to move things. You have to,

993
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: you know, in that case went on forever, and I

994
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 3: still I needed to be efficient and I needed to

995
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 3: be fair, and sometimes that means putting your foot down

996
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 3: and saying no, we're not going to take another day

997
00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 3: to do this. We're gonna you know, and give deadlines

998
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 3: and moving things. So I couldn't help, but think, in hindsight,

999
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: did I did I push too hard to get you know,

1000
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 3: maybe I should have given him longer In jury selection.

1001
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:11,800
Speaker 3: You know, maybe I should have done this, maybe I

1002
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 3: should have done that. If if I didn't know all

1003
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 3: of the reasons about if I didn't know that that

1004
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 3: particular juror had refused to participate in the jury deliberation process,

1005
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 3: I wouldn't feel bad because a jury's verdict, it's a

1006
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 3: jury's verdict. It's a jury of your peers, and that's

1007
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 3: their decision. If that's their decision, even if I don't

1008
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 3: agree with it, I have to accept it.

1009
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 1: Right.

1010
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 3: My frustration was with all of the banging on the door,

1011
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 3: get me out of here, get me away from her her,

1012
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 3: you know, with the with the arms crossed, not engaging

1013
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 3: with the jury, not considering anything. That was frustrating. I

1014
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 3: mean when when the jurors came out with the verdict,

1015
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 3: there were two or three jurors that put their heads

1016
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,680
Speaker 3: down and were crying hysterically. They wouldn't even look at me.

1017
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they so disappointed in the verdict.

1018
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 3: I don't know if they knew that I would be disappointed,

1019
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 3: But I think that I think good jurors if they

1020
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 3: see as a good judge who follows the law and

1021
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 3: tries very hard to be fair and impartial. I think

1022
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,399
Speaker 3: they don't want to disappoint you. And I think they

1023
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 3: knew that they had failed and that there was no

1024
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 3: substance deliberation, and they just finally all gave up. I

1025
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 3: mean there were a couple of them that fell down

1026
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 3: in the parking lot crying hysterically, that had like ms had.

1027
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: To be called wow really.

1028
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they were just besides themselves. And like I say,

1029
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 3: there was a lot of younger people twenties and thirties,

1030
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 3: and I think that if and I don't know this,

1031
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 3: but I think that maybe if they if the jury

1032
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 3: had been older, maybe they would have the strength to

1033
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 3: sort of fight and say, no, you have to deliberate.

1034
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 3: That's your job. You took an oath to deliberate, and

1035
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 3: we're gonna, you know, we're gonna tell the judge if

1036
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 3: you don't, if you don't participate in this instructions, and

1037
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 3: the instructions are given to them about how they should,

1038
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 3: you know, elect a four person and they should go

1039
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 3: around the room and what they should do. What I

1040
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 3: believe they should have done is pass a note and

1041
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 3: say this juror is not following her oath and she's

1042
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 3: refusing to deliberate. What would I have done with that,

1043
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 3: and would I have been reversed? I don't know, but

1044
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 3: at least it would have given me the opportunity to.

1045
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 2: To address address in fashion.

1046
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, to address it and to perhaps excuse her and

1047
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 3: replace her with one of the alternates, which we had. Again,

1048
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 3: that's never been done, but in the in the context

1049
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 3: of a jury saying this juror won't deliberate, But to me,

1050
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 3: that means she's not being fair and impartial if she's

1051
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 3: refusing to have any discussions.

1052
00:56:59,400 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: You know.

1053
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 3: So, yes, that was sort of a long answer.

1054
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

1055
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 3: I was disappointed because I can't help but feel like

1056
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 3: I may have played a part and what went wrong,

1057
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 3: And also because the world was watching. And I have

1058
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 3: to tell you that ninety nine percent of juris they

1059
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 3: try really hard to get it right, and they listen intently,

1060
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:29,479
Speaker 3: and they listen to the instructions, and I think, even

1061
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 3: if maybe I don't agree with their decision, that they

1062
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 3: give it. They're all And I feel that this was

1063
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 3: such a bad example for the nation and in other countries.

1064
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 3: I mean, this case was watched in every country in

1065
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 3: the world, and I just felt like, this is not

1066
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 3: how justice is supposed to work, and for that I

1067
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 3: had to blame myself because ultimately the responsibility of making

1068
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 3: sure the tireless fairs up to the judge.

1069
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: Now, Nick Reiner has been in the news a lot.

1070
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: Have you been following that I have to a certain extent. Yeah, yeah,

1071
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: And we just talked about before you came on, how

1072
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: Alan Jackson was representing him and then he you know,

1073
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: at the arraignment he withdrew. We me basically, I'm of

1074
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 1: the opinion that he withdrew because of finances. Do you

1075
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: have an opinion on the reason.

1076
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 3: You know, It's funny. Before the podcast, I was preparing

1077
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 3: and reading everything and trying to figure things out, and

1078
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 3: the first thing I thought was money, because he's not

1079
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 3: gonna have access to his parents' money. He's in jail.

1080
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 3: And when I read that he's been in and out

1081
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 3: of rehab so many times, I'm assuming he doesn't have

1082
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 3: some trust fun sitting in the bank. So yes, I

1083
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 3: assume money. But the way that the defense attorney, mister

1084
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 3: Jackson responded saying it would be aune ethical for me

1085
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 3: to say that, I was a little confused about because

1086
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 3: attorneys come forward all the time at least in Florida

1087
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 3: and say Judge that he can't he doesn't have the

1088
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 3: money to pay me. I can't stand.

1089
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 2: But that's all. But that's also in a courtroom setting,

1090
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: right when they're trying to present and they're making emotion

1091
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 2: to withdraw or something.

1092
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 3: Sure, but it would be public.

1093
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: Well, maybe he just doesn't want to look like he's

1094
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 2: a greedy attorney.

1095
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 3: Well, I'm thinking that a lot of people would want

1096
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 3: to take this case for free anyway for the publicity.

1097
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: Right, I thought I thought so too, but that I

1098
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 2: read that he doesn't do probona, but I would have

1099
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 2: thought he did it. In fact, I think I told

1100
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 2: Emily that, I'm like, he's probably doing it for free,

1101
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 2: and then he gets a lot of free I think,

1102
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 2: gets a lot of potential criminal cases. And then he

1103
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 2: might throw him down to his other attorneys in his

1104
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 2: firm and he's doing the head this big one.

1105
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 3: You know.

1106
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: Well, Emily is just in love with Alan Jackson, and

1107
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 2: she wants to find every reason to say that he's

1108
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 2: a gentleman and his hands are tied.

1109
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a big fan of I became a big

1110
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 1: fan of Alan Jackson watching him do the Karen Reid trial.

1111
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,919
Speaker 1: So yeah, well here's the thing.

1112
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 3: You know, like you you all are lawyers practicing lawyers,

1113
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 3: so you know that for example, my law firm, we've

1114
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:13,160
Speaker 3: stopped taking not completely, but we have tapered down the

1115
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 3: amount of contingency cases that we take because you have

1116
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: to bankroll the litigation and then it can be years

1117
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 3: and then the case is on appeal and you may

1118
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 3: not get paid for ten to fifteen years, and while

1119
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 3: who's paying at all, you know, who's paying keep the

1120
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 3: lights on. So I wouldn't think an attorney is a

1121
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 3: bad person just because they won't take a case for free.

1122
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 2: No, No, I said that earlier. I said, he has

1123
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 2: every right to charge what heah he's worth, and he's

1124
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 2: given him his time, and if they can't afford it,

1125
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 2: then he's going to put us, you.

1126
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 3: Know, and he may not. He might not have the funds.

1127
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 3: He may not have the money to be able to

1128
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 3: bankroll that that case. He may not. You know, I

1129
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 3: don't know that much about him, but that's going to

1130
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 3: be an expensive case to try, I would imagine.

1131
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,439
Speaker 2: To put it lightly, Yeah, you know all.

1132
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 3: The experts that they're probably going to hide, psychologists, psychiatrists,

1133
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know what the defense will be, but.

1134
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: We've discussed we're some type of insanity defense, right.

1135
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 3: I mean, I wasn't able to find like a probable

1136
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 3: cause affidavit or anything like that. I was able to

1137
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 3: find just the injuries to the victims and then the

1138
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 3: fact that he was arrested. I don't know if there's

1139
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 3: more to it that I don't know, but.

1140
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: Well, I've read some things about I mean, just like

1141
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: his past, his past behavior, some of the way he

1142
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: was acting the night before at a party that he

1143
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 1: was on meds, but the meds had been switched, and

1144
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 1: so I don't know. I was just taking all that

1145
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: into account, thinking that, you know, when we're talking about

1146
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: mitigating factors, that that's probably something that's going to come

1147
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: into play eventually. And the fact that a public defender

1148
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: took the case made me think it also had to

1149
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: do with money, because I felt like if there was

1150
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: money to defend him, they would have brought some other

1151
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: big name defense attorney. And but it's not. It's a

1152
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: public defen or.

1153
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 3: It may be that what happens a lot of times,

1154
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 3: and I feel bad for the public defenders for this,

1155
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 3: but they'll say, let the public. You know, a private

1156
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 3: attorney will say, let the public defender work up the case,

1157
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 3: Let the public defender take the depots and do all

1158
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 3: the leg work, and then all come in substitutent at

1159
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 3: the end. Now, of course they don't say this, but

1160
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 3: when it happens, it's very frustrating to the public defenders

1161
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 3: and unfair because they bear the brunt, so that that

1162
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 3: could be an angle. I wouldn't be surprised if mister

1163
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 3: Jackson or another prominent attorney were to substitutent once the

1164
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:38,439
Speaker 3: heavy lifting is done.

1165
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, I didn't think of that, But

1166
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 1: that's that's that's an interesting take.

1167
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. Yeah, because then they pay

1168
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 3: for the depots, they pay for the they pay for

1169
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 3: everything in two months before trial. You know, you have

1170
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 3: a right to pick your own lawyer, and as long

1171
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 3: as the lawyer can be ready within a reasonable time period,

1172
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 3: the judge has no other choice but to let the

1173
01:02:56,640 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 3: person substitute in. I would not be surprised if that

1174
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 3: were to happen.

1175
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: Right, that's interesting. We'll have to keep following that case

1176
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: and see what happens. Just one one more question. Now,

1177
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure you followed Diddy.

1178
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:10,439
Speaker 3: I did.

1179
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: Were you surprised by the verdict.

1180
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 3: You know, because it's in federal court and you don't

1181
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 3: get to watch it, hear it, see it every day.

1182
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 3: I mean the bits from what I could, you know,

1183
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 3: you had to rely on reporters to tell you what

1184
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 3: their sense of what was going on. I mean, my

1185
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 3: opinion is they just didn't think that they believed it

1186
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 3: was consensual, so it didn't rise to the to the

1187
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 3: level of trafficking.

1188
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 1: Right. Well, we had discussed a few times on this podcast,

1189
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: and I think we always said was I felt like

1190
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: they were going to have trouble with the Rico part

1191
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, it didn't that seemed I mean, obviously

1192
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 1: he was a horrible person. We all watched the video

1193
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: of him, you know, attacking Cassie in the hallway. He

1194
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: was violent. We knew that. But I felt as if

1195
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: those higher charges, the reco charge, those were going to

1196
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 1: be difficult.

1197
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 3: Yes see, if the prosecution was smart, and I've I

1198
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 3: said this on another podcast that I was on, if

1199
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 3: they would have prosecuted him for the dragging her in

1200
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 3: that hotel, at least in Florida, and I don't know

1201
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 3: about California. But that could have been a kidnapping. That

1202
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 3: could have been a false imprisonment, holding somebody against their will,

1203
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 3: that could have been an aggravated battery, that could have

1204
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 3: been a number of felonies that would where he would

1205
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 3: face fifteen plus years in prison. And it's all on

1206
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 3: video and he can't explain it. There's no way to

1207
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 3: explain away what he did. Why they didn't prosecute him

1208
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 3: for that and asked for the maximum punishment. I don't know,

1209
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 3: because certainly that was a much that would have been

1210
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 3: a one day trial. You show the video he hit

1211
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 3: her with I believe multiple he was throwing multiple objects

1212
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 3: at her in Florida. That's an aggravated battery with a weapon,

1213
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 3: deadly weapon. And again, kidnapping because when you're holding somebody

1214
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 3: against their will and false imprisonment.

1215
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: Like back to the room or something, right right, he

1216
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 1: doesn't let her get on the elevator right right.

1217
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:09,919
Speaker 3: And that's like for anybody that doesn't understand, a kidnapping

1218
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 3: does not necessarily have to be that you put somebody

1219
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 3: in your car and you take them away for like

1220
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 3: two days. A kidnapping can be fifteen seconds, you know,

1221
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 3: trying exactly, trying to get her before she gets on

1222
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 3: the elevator and keeping her from escaping. To me, they

1223
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 3: should have gone for that. That would have been a

1224
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 3: slam dunk. But this other case, you know, I think

1225
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 3: the jury didn't buy it and so they came back

1226
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 3: with a lesser charge. I wasn't I wasn't totally surprised.

1227
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 3: I you know, I think they deliberated for quite some time.

1228
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:45,440
Speaker 3: They were listening, and they did their job. And if

1229
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,560
Speaker 3: that's what they if that's what a jury does, then

1230
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 3: then you know, to me, I'm fully in favor of

1231
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 3: our of our system of justice. I think juries get

1232
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 3: it right most of the time. So you know, without

1233
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 3: having been there, I don't know, but it does not surprise.

1234
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 3: The verdict did not surprise me.

1235
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:04,920
Speaker 1: Can I ask you one more thing? And I don't

1236
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: know if you're comfortable talking about it, but I do

1237
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: know when when when the jury came out in the

1238
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: Parkland case and they gave the verdict and everything, and

1239
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 1: then you hugged the families and then I think you

1240
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 1: got some backlash because of that, I guess because you

1241
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 1: weren't showing what impartiality or whatever is that that's what

1242
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:26,320
Speaker 1: the accusation was but I was before you came on.

1243
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: I was discussing that with Shane, and I said, I said,

1244
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: women are innately nurturers, and like how you were talking

1245
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 1: about before with like a man on the bench, and

1246
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: I could picture if it was a male judge, the

1247
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 1: verdict would have come out, he would have whatever and

1248
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: then walked away. But as women were mothers, were nurtures,

1249
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 1: were like were innately that way. So I feel as

1250
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: if what you just giving the families a hug is

1251
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: just a natural progression of what women do well.

1252
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 3: So let me just say this. It started off I

1253
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 3: was going to shake hands with the lawyers and whoever

1254
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 3: wanted to shake my hand, which men, male judges do

1255
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 3: all the time, and the way the bench was set up,

1256
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 3: I had to reach so far over that I was

1257
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:14,919
Speaker 3: afraid my thiek were going to come out from under

1258
01:07:14,920 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 3: me and I was going to sort of fall forward.

1259
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,440
Speaker 3: So I said, let me come off the bench and

1260
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 3: come around. Now at this point, I know it's a

1261
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 3: life sentence, so I know there's no appeal. The defendant's

1262
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 3: already been taken by the corrections officers, so I'm not

1263
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 3: worried about being unfair because I was planning to shake

1264
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 3: hands with anybody, including defense, prosecution, anyone.

1265
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: Right, So I go.

1266
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 3: Up to the first prosecutor and I thought, you know what,

1267
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 3: we've all been together hearing this horrible story for five years.

1268
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:54,960
Speaker 3: I'm going to give them a hug. It's kind of uncomfortable. Women,

1269
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 3: we don't really shake hands, right.

1270
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 1: I'm more of a hugger.

1271
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a but under those circumstances, I just thought,

1272
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 3: you know what, a hug is more appropriate. So I

1273
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 3: started hugging the lawyers and then I walked over to

1274
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 3: the defense and I said, thank you all very much,

1275
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 3: before you leave, I would love to give you, know,

1276
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 3: give you all. I've come down off the bench. If

1277
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 3: anyone wants a hug. I'm not a big hugger, but

1278
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 3: now it's your chance. And they all just sort of

1279
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 3: looked at me like they were not interested. I said, okay,

1280
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 3: going once, going twice. And then after that the prosecution said, Judge,

1281
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 3: the family members would like to meet you and thank you.

1282
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,759
Speaker 3: Do you mind And I said no, of course not, because,

1283
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 3: like I said, if it had been a situation where

1284
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 3: I had stayed behind the bench, anybody can come up

1285
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 3: to me. The if the defendant had family members there

1286
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 3: and they want to come up to me. It'd have

1287
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 3: been fine because I was off the bench again, and

1288
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 3: because the family members had seen me hugging the lawyers.

1289
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 3: I hug the press, you know, yeah, to see me

1290
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 3: hugging lawyers. So I the families come up and they

1291
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:07,640
Speaker 3: start hugging me. And I thought to myself, you know,

1292
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:11,720
Speaker 3: as a human being, if I can do this, if

1293
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 3: this gives these people some sort of reprieve from their grief,

1294
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 3: if I can offer them some kind of human kindness

1295
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:25,240
Speaker 3: in this just simple, simple gesture, I'm going to do it.

1296
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:25,439
Speaker 2: Now.

1297
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 3: I knew the cameras were rolling, I knew I was

1298
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 3: being filmed. I made the decision. I didn't care. I

1299
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:37,120
Speaker 3: knew this is this is uh, this could be considered unfair.

1300
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 3: But I felt because I hugged the press, you know,

1301
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 3: I was hugging everybody that it was like, you know,

1302
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 3: it wasn't expartey because I wasn't just hugging one side.

1303
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 3: I was, you know, hugging everybody, right, But I knew

1304
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 3: this could come back to get me. And my staff

1305
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 3: attorney was there, and afterwards I said to him, Michael,

1306
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 3: he said, Judge, I think you're fine, And I said,

1307
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 3: you know what, even if I'm not, I don't care

1308
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 3: because offer these people just that small gesture. I think

1309
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 3: it made such a difference to them to know that. Look,

1310
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:13,440
Speaker 3: I tried my best, and I listened, and I understand

1311
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:19,160
Speaker 3: and so yes, I was brought before the Judicial Qualifications

1312
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:24,680
Speaker 3: Commission for that and they told me that it, you know,

1313
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 3: was not fair and the appearance of impartiality, and we

1314
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 3: had to we agreed to disagree. I can tell you

1315
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 3: I that none nobody on that committee has ever tried

1316
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 3: a case like this. Most of them are appellate judges.

1317
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:46,680
Speaker 3: They've never even tried a case in their life. But

1318
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 3: the I don't regret my decision.

1319
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 1: That's why I was going to ask you, given the

1320
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:54,720
Speaker 1: chance to do it again, would you do it the same?

1321
01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 3: Yes, well absolutely, and I could have. I could have

1322
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 3: taken that charge to try. I basically pled no contest,

1323
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 3: meaning I'm not going to dispute this allegation. And the

1324
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 3: punishment was, oh, we're going to reprimand you. And by

1325
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 3: way of this order, this is the reprimand, which has

1326
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 3: by the way, never been done before ever in the

1327
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 3: history of Florida. A reprimand as you go before the

1328
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 3: Florida Supreme Court and on national television they shame on

1329
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,719
Speaker 3: you and really let you have it on national TV.

1330
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,719
Speaker 3: The Florida Supreme Court did not do that. They issued

1331
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 3: a one sentence order that says this will be the

1332
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 3: reprimand which to me says that they either didn't agree

1333
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 3: with it or felt it was over overdone. I could

1334
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,800
Speaker 3: have gone to trial, which my family wanted me to do,

1335
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 3: to dispute it, but I said no, because my witnesses

1336
01:11:49,160 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 3: are going to be that these family members. I can

1337
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 3: have these people go through this again. There's no way

1338
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 3: I can't if I have to take a slap on

1339
01:11:56,560 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 3: the wrists or whatever it was. Plus I kind of

1340
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 3: I mean, this is gonna sound maybe not that nice,

1341
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 3: but it's okay because I haven't been a judge for

1342
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 3: two years so that they don't have jurisdiction over me anymore.

1343
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:12,800
Speaker 3: But I was thinking, you know what, fine, bring me

1344
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 3: up before the Phoidacy Supreme Court, because guess what's gonna happen.

1345
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 3: A whole bunch of my colleagues, fellow judges, and all

1346
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 3: of those family members. We're going to go and sit

1347
01:12:21,479 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 3: in that courtroom right behind me so I don't regret it.

1348
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:32,760
Speaker 3: I feel close to a lot of those families, even

1349
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 3: though we never spoke for all those years, just from

1350
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 3: listening to their stories and having me opportunity to interact

1351
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 3: with them.

1352
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: Well, sometimes at the end of the day, it's about

1353
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: being human and not as what the black and white

1354
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,680
Speaker 1: legal rules of the courtroom are. And I think you

1355
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 1: just showed humanity.

1356
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:58,320
Speaker 3: I mean, thank you for saying that. I think that

1357
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 3: the people who criticize me, I just I know for

1358
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 3: a fact no one has ever been in that situation before.

1359
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:10,160
Speaker 2: Well, none of the people would criticize you have never

1360
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 2: been in your place either to be able to say

1361
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 2: what is right and wrong.

1362
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 3: And I have to tell you that trial, everybody was

1363
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:22,320
Speaker 3: crying in the courtroom. The defense attorneys were hysterical, the

1364
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:26,720
Speaker 3: state shed tears, the court deputies shed tears, the security

1365
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 3: shed tears, the family were crying. Guess who never cried? Me?

1366
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 3: I never cried. And I had male judges coming up

1367
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 3: to me every day saying, Liz, how did you do that?

1368
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 3: How did you not cry? Because I put on my

1369
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 3: big girl pants and I said, if a male judge

1370
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 3: doesn't cry, this female judge is not going to cry.

1371
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 3: But I had a lot of stuff that I buried

1372
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:49,520
Speaker 3: deep to make sure that that trial was fair and impartial.

1373
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:54,679
Speaker 3: And you know, if I had broken down in tears,

1374
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:56,160
Speaker 3: I don't think I would have gotten trouble because they

1375
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 3: would have said, well, you can't help that, you know

1376
01:13:58,240 --> 01:13:58,719
Speaker 3: what I mean.

1377
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, But to me, that's more if that would have happened,

1378
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:06,679
Speaker 1: that's more showing some kind of emotion when you hugging

1379
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: after the sentencing and the verdict, after the.

1380
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 3: After the defendant was excused, when there's I know there's

1381
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 3: not going to be any appeal. If he had been

1382
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:17,640
Speaker 3: given the death penalty, I would not have done that

1383
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:19,600
Speaker 3: because I know there would have been an appeal, but

1384
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:23,559
Speaker 3: I knew there's no there's no appeal. This is all over.

1385
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 3: You know, I buried that, that my emotions this whole time,

1386
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:30,600
Speaker 3: and I'm going to be a human being and you know,

1387
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 3: I'll deal with it later.

1388
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, you know what, thank you for sharing

1389
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 1: all of that. We really appreciate you coming on today

1390
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 1: and being so vulnerable and talking about that case and

1391
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: your experience. And you can find your YouTube channel. It's

1392
01:14:47,320 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: at the judge list. So I would suggest if if

1393
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,120
Speaker 1: you guys have the time to watch her. We've watched

1394
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 1: several of your videos and I really enjoy them. I

1395
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 1: like your perspective and I think, thanks you done so.

1396
01:14:57,320 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you so much for joining us today

1397
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 1: on Legally Brunette. Really appreciate it.

1398
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 3: It was so great to meet you both. I'm so flattered.

1399
01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:09,080
Speaker 3: And your show the was it? Was it a wife

1400
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 3: swap last week?

1401
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've been on white Swap. Yeah. Yeah.

1402
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 3: So my assistance text, you got to turn this on.

1403
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,759
Speaker 3: You got to turn this on. She's a really nice lady.

1404
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 3: You're going to love her. And so I turn it

1405
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,000
Speaker 3: on for a few minutes. So I was telling a

1406
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 3: lot of my friends at my barn like I'm gonna

1407
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 3: be on this podcast and she's on Housewives of Orange

1408
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 3: County and they were like, oh my god, that's so cool.

1409
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: So yes, well, thank you, thank you so nice to

1410
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,680
Speaker 1: meet both of you. Thanks Liz, We appreciate it all right,

1411
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:44,400
Speaker 1: take care you too, Bye bye Bay. Thanks guys for listening.

1412
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. Again. You can find us anywhere you

1413
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:50,200
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can just search for Legally Brunette.

1414
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 1: Make sure you tell your friends and family and Also,

1415
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:55,640
Speaker 1: I always appreciate the feedback. You guys dm me on

1416
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 1: Instagram and let me know what cases you're interested in

1417
01:15:58,439 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 1: and thank you and we will see you soon.

1418
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 2: Thank you. Follow h