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Speaker 1: Yeah, Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm term Keene

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Speaker 1: jay Leye. We bring you insight from the best in economics, finance, investment,

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Speaker 1: and international relations. Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, and of course on the Bloomberg So

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Speaker 1: a G twenty agenda that has been totally hijacked by

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Speaker 1: a bilateral between the President of the United States Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump and Chinese President she a much anticipated meeting potentially

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Speaker 1: deciding the fate of markets for the rest of Joining

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Speaker 1: us to discuss is Jonathan femb t s Lombard Chairman,

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Speaker 1: and he joins us on the phone. Good morning to

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Speaker 1: your Jonathan. I just want to get a handle on

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Speaker 1: what your expectations are coming into this weekend and what

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Speaker 1: it will look like Monday morning. Well. I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of uncertainty, of course about the Trump she meeting,

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Speaker 1: partly because we've had a lot of kind of stage

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Speaker 1: managed leaks from the US side, with very little on

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Speaker 1: the other hand from the Chinese side. I think that

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Speaker 1: the two men will meet. There is I think a

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Speaker 1: possibility of some kind of deal which would probably be

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Speaker 1: fairly superficial and would involve just having more talks, having

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Speaker 1: some kind of more framework institutionalized dialogue. But the fundamental

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Speaker 1: differences between the US and China remain, and they go

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Speaker 1: far beyond tarists. This is a much bigger contest between

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Speaker 1: these two nations, which you know, takes the form of

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Speaker 1: the talk over tariffs, but has more strategic elements to it. Jonathan,

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Speaker 1: the conversation so far has been framed almost exclusively through

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Speaker 1: what does Trump want? What does the President of the

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Speaker 1: United States want from this? What does President she need?

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Speaker 1: What she needs is to show him fundamentally. What he

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Speaker 1: needs is to show himself as a strong leader of

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Speaker 1: a new China, that is, to stick to the kind

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Speaker 1: of agenda which he set out for the country, for

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Speaker 1: the Communist Party and for himself at the big Communist

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Speaker 1: Party Congress just a year ago. He can give ground

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Speaker 1: on some areas market liberalization, allowing foreign companies to take

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Speaker 1: soul ownership of enterprises in China, and so on, but

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Speaker 1: only in as far as those do not affect the

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Speaker 1: basic strength of the Communist Party state. John, wonderfully have

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Speaker 1: you with us this morning. Mr Fenby not only definitive

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Speaker 1: on France, but his Penguin history of modern China is

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Speaker 1: basically the new Spence is to shut up and read it.

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Speaker 1: Look you buy it. You don't actually read. It's just

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Speaker 1: sort of walking around with it to look cool at school.

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Speaker 1: John Fenby, you can define, like Jonathan Spence, what this

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Speaker 1: word patients means to the knee is president. She comes

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Speaker 1: to Buenos Aires, meeting with this unique president of the

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Speaker 1: United States, What patients will be displayed, what will be

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Speaker 1: its character? Well, I think she is here for the

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Speaker 1: long term. We've had the lifting of the presidential term limits,

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Speaker 1: of course in China, which give him the potential to

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Speaker 1: remain in power for as long as he wants, and

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Speaker 1: he sees himself in those kind of historic terms as

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Speaker 1: the worthy successor to Matsi, to Deng Shaoping and so on,

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Speaker 1: and setting really a new era for China, moving into

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Speaker 1: a more evolved economic system, but with the Communist Party's

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Speaker 1: strength always increased. And as I just said, he's not

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Speaker 1: his patients will consist in not allowing any short term

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Speaker 1: deals which could shake that. Of course, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: he's got a whole wrath of challenges at home, from

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Speaker 1: the economy, through society, through the environment and so on,

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Speaker 1: which he's got to deal with at the same time,

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Speaker 1: and this trade war comes at a pretty inconvenient time

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Speaker 1: for John Gerrol. Do you understand that Jan Sandy's classic

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Speaker 1: is eight hundred and sixteen pages and the only one

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Speaker 1: that read this thing was Michael McKee's doorp wish you

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Speaker 1: good luck with it. Just dip into bit into it.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the most important chapter right now?

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Speaker 1: John talked to me about that. What we really need

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Speaker 1: to know going into this meeting to frame it beyond

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Speaker 1: just this weekend. Well, we need to know whether these

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Speaker 1: two leaders Trump and She can establish some kind of

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Speaker 1: mutual interest in continuing setting up and continuing a dialogue.

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Speaker 1: And that's what's been missing. I mean, there's no doubt

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Speaker 1: that China was caught off balance by Trump, by the tariffs,

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Speaker 1: by other US moves, and it's in a sense it

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Speaker 1: read Washington pretty badly wrong with China. It's got to

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Speaker 1: get that right now, and it's going to have confidence

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Speaker 1: that it can establish some kind of working, lasting relationship

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Speaker 1: with the Trump administration, and of course that isn't easy,

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Speaker 1: partly because of the way the President is pretty volatile

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Speaker 1: in his statements, and also the uncertainty is who is

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Speaker 1: actually running policy under him? Is it Treasury? Is it

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Speaker 1: the more hawkish trade representatives. China is a bit at sea,

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Speaker 1: I think in this and one of the important things

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Speaker 1: at this dinner, when they look at each other across

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Speaker 1: the table, will be to say, hey, let's have some

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Speaker 1: clarity in this relationship. Jonathan, you'll remember that phrase from

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Speaker 1: Neil ferguson another's Chin America. It wasn't so long ago

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Speaker 1: we were talking about China and America needing each other

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Speaker 1: for various different things. Now we're talking about in recent

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Speaker 1: tension too, countries just on the path towards collision. In fact,

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Speaker 1: maybe we've got that collision already. Do you think it's

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Speaker 1: better off looking at this as America versus China and

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Speaker 1: not just the President of the United States, Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: versus j Hin King, because this is something that could

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Speaker 1: transcend administrations go beyond just ten years. Yeah. Absolutely, you

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Speaker 1: put your finger on it there. What has been striking

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Speaker 1: and where the Chinese got this pretty badly wrong during

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Speaker 1: the course of this year is the extent of bipartisan

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Speaker 1: support for the White House and for the tough line

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Speaker 1: with China. I think the era of constructive engagement as

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Speaker 1: it was called which we saw hunder Bill Clinton and others,

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Speaker 1: is past now Trumps tariffs that they have been brutal,

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Speaker 1: but they've acted as a kind of rallying cry. I

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Speaker 1: think for America, Visa EA, China, and China has to

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Speaker 1: reassess its own policies and that is not proving very easy.

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Speaker 1: Let me reaset the morning for you. We welcome all

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Speaker 1: of you across the nation and worldwide. Bloomberg surveillance, John

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Speaker 1: Farrow and Tom came many moving parts today, the drama

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Speaker 1: in Washington, a little bit going on in Europe, and

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Speaker 1: for global Wall Street, Deutsche Bank really front and center

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Speaker 1: with a very difficult morning, just a little bit away

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Speaker 1: from a seven year O handle on Deutsche Bank and

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Speaker 1: new record weakness. Michael mckeew with US and Buenos Areas.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna finish up here with Jonathan Fenby, of course

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Speaker 1: outstanding on China and the cadence of China. Jonathan Fenby,

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Speaker 1: my experience with China is it's always about food. It

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Speaker 1: was that way with the emperors you studied of hundreds

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Speaker 1: of years ago. It's that way with President she. What

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Speaker 1: have you and your team seen recently with food inflation?

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Speaker 1: In China. Well, that's a definitely. Food inflation is uh

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Speaker 1: building up in China. Lastly, because of pork. Pork is

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Speaker 1: extremely important in China. It's a big driver of CPI inflation.

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Speaker 1: And we've had the pig disease spreading through China, maybe

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Speaker 1: going outside China according to some reports over the last

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Speaker 1: couple of days. That is sending up food inflation in China.

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Speaker 1: There's also the question of if China switches away from

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Speaker 1: US agricultural products, whether it will get into a higher

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Speaker 1: priced import. And of course it's trying to ramp up

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Speaker 1: self sufficiency and food but that is a very old

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Speaker 1: story in China, and I think they're still going to

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Speaker 1: be dependent, particularly for soy, on lots of imports. But John,

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Speaker 1: I think the issue that we're getting out here outside

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Speaker 1: of just park is that they've got some domestic issues

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Speaker 1: that are distinct from the train discussion that will live

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Speaker 1: this weekend and into next year and beyond. Absolutely, we've

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Speaker 1: had we are in the process of a slowdown in

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Speaker 1: growth in China. I think the she administration is serious

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Speaker 1: about getting to grips with the debt issue, at least

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Speaker 1: capping that and reducing the degree of leverage, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time they're stuck because they also need to

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Speaker 1: keep a certain level of growth going in order to

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Speaker 1: keep the citizens of China generally happy with the regime.

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Speaker 1: And this is a very acute, sensitive balancing issue which

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Speaker 1: the trade dispute certainly doesn't help. John Fanby, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much, greatly appreciated this morning, and again his book

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Speaker 1: on China. I'll get it out on Twitter and on

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Speaker 1: Tom Keene Books is just absolutely fabulous, absolutely fabulous. Wearing

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Speaker 1: signing gray this morning in Buenos aireas is Michael McKee.

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Speaker 1: You wear a light gray suit for every signing. And

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Speaker 1: this is a multilateral signing, or what in today's world

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Speaker 1: looks like a multilateral moment of the noon AFTA of

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Speaker 1: America of Canada in Mexico. Michael, you have followed this

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Speaker 1: story from day one on. Is there any emotion or

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Speaker 1: angle or body language to this signing or is it

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Speaker 1: just another gent event. It's not just another G twenty event.

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Speaker 1: Although it is not the final word because now the

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Speaker 1: agreement has to go to the legislatures in the various

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Speaker 1: countries for approval, and in the United States that could

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Speaker 1: be particularly difficult for Donald Trump. It is obviously a

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Speaker 1: moment of triumph. He promised a new NAFTA deal. He

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Speaker 1: got a new nafterdeal. Even if it's not significantly different

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Speaker 1: from the old one, it is a new nafter deal. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The outgoing Mexican President Enrique Pagionetto managed to get it

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Speaker 1: in under the wire. Pionietto leaves the signing ceremony Tom

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Speaker 1: head straight to the airport to fly back to Mexico City.

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Speaker 1: His term is up at midnight tonight. So for at

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Speaker 1: least two of the participants today, it is a significant debt.

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Speaker 1: Is this when multi lansers lism basically peaks for the

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Speaker 1: whole weekend, Mike, because it looks like it's all about

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Speaker 1: one meet thing and it takes place tomorrow. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is pretty much the truth, John, And it is true

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Speaker 1: in the room as well, because we have not seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of cooperation between the United States and Canada

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Speaker 1: in recent months over various issues. The Canadians very strong

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Speaker 1: in their condemn nation of the Saudias and their condemn

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Speaker 1: nation of what Russia has done with Ukraine, and the

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Speaker 1: US much more circumspect about both of those things. But

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Speaker 1: you're right, it's all about the U. S. China meeting tomorrow,

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Speaker 1: with a little bit of emphasis on Vladimir Putin's meeting

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Speaker 1: with Mohammed Bin Salmon, the Saudi Prince, and whether it

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Speaker 1: will have any impact on oil prices. Mike, you've been

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Speaker 1: there for twenty four as now. I want an idea

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Speaker 1: of what the mood is like that because for me,

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Speaker 1: I look at a G twenty and Argentina and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot goming gone in the world and it's been

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Speaker 1: totally hijacked by single meeting bilateral What is the mood

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Speaker 1: like outside of the U S and Chinese camps? Do

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Speaker 1: they feel like they're there for no reason? No, because

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Speaker 1: there's a lot going on for the various ministers who

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Speaker 1: are year UH, the heads of delegation have a lot

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Speaker 1: of bilateral meetings between themselves. Shinzabi meeting with all three leaders.

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Speaker 1: He's the only UH one of the G twenty who

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Speaker 1: was meeting with the top three leaders here c GM, PIG,

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump. You've got Theresa May here

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Speaker 1: making the case for breaks that she's meeting again with

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Speaker 1: EU leaders and then she's going to talk to the

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Speaker 1: rest of the G twenty about what it means trying

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Speaker 1: to sell it as a positive for the global economy.

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Speaker 1: Mohammed bin Salomon important for him as a sort of

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Speaker 1: rehabilitation tour here try to get back in the good

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Speaker 1: graces of some of these leaders and also let them

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Speaker 1: know he's going to be in charge in Saudi Arabia,

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Speaker 1: so they've got to deal with him. So each has

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Speaker 1: their own agenda. Probably the saddest if if that's a

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Speaker 1: proper way to describe it, would be Mauricio Macri, the

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Speaker 1: Argentine president, because the themes that he set for a

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Speaker 1: sustainable food development, uh, that sort of thing, are being

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Speaker 1: definitely overshadowed. Here. She just joining a social Michael mcqueick

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Speaker 1: McKey from Buenos Aires, John Farrowe and Tom keenan our

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Speaker 1: studios in New York the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers as studios

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Speaker 1: in the blue screen with the three flags in front,

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Speaker 1: uh the American flag, the Canadian flag, the Mexico flag

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Speaker 1: over in thropples. I believe my math is nine flags

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Speaker 1: on a Friday with three lectorns and three chairs at

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Speaker 1: a single desk awaiting the signing of President Trump, Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Trudeau and President paint on paint and the ato

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Speaker 1: of Mexico as well. Michael McKee, you are r G expert.

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Speaker 1: Ian Bremer says G zero. Maybe we would say G

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Speaker 1: G McKee. What's the difference between a G eight meeting

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Speaker 1: and a G twenty meeting. Uh, twelve countries, Tom, Actually

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Speaker 1: there are thirty eight delegations here when you include the

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Speaker 1: international organizations like the I m F, so this is

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Speaker 1: much more than the G twenty. However, what this organization

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Speaker 1: was designed to do was bringing in a what it means,

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Speaker 1: of significant size or influence that are not the eight

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Speaker 1: biggest in the world. Now there aren't eight. It's back

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Speaker 1: to G seven. They kicked Russia out after Crimeria Crimea,

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Speaker 1: But the G twenty includes countries like Argentina, like Saudi

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Speaker 1: Arabia that have smaller economies but play a major role

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Speaker 1: in their regions or in the world. The idea was

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Speaker 1: that they would be able to work together on global problems.

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Speaker 1: But as we're seeing, it's not that easy. I should

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Speaker 1: point out, Tom, you were mentioning the signing ceremony. The

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Speaker 1: presidents are not signing the NAP to agree. They're signing

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Speaker 1: an authorization for their trade ministers to sign it. And

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Speaker 1: as soon as they are done, they will get up

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Speaker 1: and Robert Leheiser, Christian Freedland, and Hard Oh will get

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Speaker 1: up and come up and actually signed the doctor. So

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Speaker 1: you'll have six people signing today the complexities, and they

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Speaker 1: all have to hand out pencils and pens, cross pens,

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Speaker 1: no doubt. Yeah, that's that's un America. You signed like

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Speaker 1: the difference between a G I and a do you

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Speaker 1: know whatever? You know, don't get a complex that's because

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Speaker 1: McKey went to the Pharaoh school of charm. Don't you continue?

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Speaker 1: It sounds like he did. Um, Michael McKee. Beyond this,

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Speaker 1: there is a subplot here and it's around oil, and

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Speaker 1: it also includes the President of the United States. What

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Speaker 1: are you hearing in Buenosalaries about the potential for some

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Speaker 1: kind of agreement around the oil market. Well, we went

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Speaker 1: into the weekend, John, thinking that we wouldn't get an

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Speaker 1: agreement because Vladimir Putin had suggested he was okay with

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Speaker 1: sixty dollar oil. Now we've dipped below that into the fifties,

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Speaker 1: and then you start to get into a problem for

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Speaker 1: the Russians as well as the Saudis. Saudis needed higher

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Speaker 1: oil price in order to keep things going there and

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Speaker 1: if the oil price dips too low, it starts to

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Speaker 1: affect American production as well. So uh there is a

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Speaker 1: possibility that the Russians and the Saudis could agree on

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Speaker 1: some sort of production quotas they did the last time

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Speaker 1: they met a week before an Opeque meeting, and it

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Speaker 1: caught the world attention. So the oil industry watching this

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Speaker 1: meaning very very closely. No guarantees, but there's some thought

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Speaker 1: that if you were going to try to cut production,

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Speaker 1: two of the three biggest producers would be where you'd start.

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Speaker 1: Will the President the Annoited States be happy if the

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Speaker 1: Sundies do get that agreement to cut production. No, he

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Speaker 1: would not be, and that puts pressure on Prince uh

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Speaker 1: Ben Solomon because he wants the United States behind him.

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Speaker 1: The Donald Trump did him a big favor by not

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Speaker 1: going tough on him after the murder of Jamal Kashagi,

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Speaker 1: and he in a in a sense oz President Trump something.

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Speaker 1: So it may take a lot for him to agree

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Speaker 1: at this point to some sort of production moves. It

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Speaker 1: may take a little more time before he can do that,

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Speaker 1: put a little more distance between himself the murder and

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Speaker 1: the President. But at some point the Saudis do need

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Speaker 1: more revenue than they're going to get from the price

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Speaker 1: of oil in the fifties, Michael McKee Blinberg's very on

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Speaker 1: in one of the finest joining his and one of

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Speaker 1: snaris augentadors. We a white the signing of the new

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Speaker 1: U s m C A agreement waiting for the leaders

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Speaker 1: of Mexico, the United States and Canada to appear an

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Speaker 1: agency in a full that signing ceremony, I want to

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Speaker 1: bring in Julia Karnata macro policy perspectives, founder and presidents

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Speaker 1: who joined us here in New York City. Judy, your

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Speaker 1: expectations for the weekend, what are they? Well, it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that this whole dynamic around oil because it's it's Trump.

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Speaker 1: President Trump may not understand that now actually declining oil

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Speaker 1: prices is problematic for a significant part of the economy too.

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Speaker 1: It benefits consumers. But then we saw, for example, in

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Speaker 1: fifteen when oil prices tanked, we saw investment tank. Um,

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Speaker 1: so we've got a significant energy industry that's an important

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Speaker 1: part of the recovery. They wouldn't be too happy if

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Speaker 1: we see oil prices keep dipping as they are. Julia,

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Speaker 1: your work over the years and this comes out of

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Speaker 1: your gathering a parchment at the University of Texas Austin

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Speaker 1: years ago. Is an acute understanding of auto process and

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Speaker 1: particularly auto process and that border between MAX the coaches

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Speaker 1: in the United States. You've got a GM announcement. I

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Speaker 1: want you to speak to the people in Michigan right

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Speaker 1: now who think SUVs are going to be made in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Should they be made in America? Can they be made

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Speaker 1: in Texas? Well? A lot of trucks, Actually, Toyota has

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Speaker 1: significant manufacturing operations in Texas and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: Sun Belt has attracted auto manufacturing. But there is you know,

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Speaker 1: competitiveness issues in terms of labor costs that are you know,

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Speaker 1: not going to go away. Uh And the NAPTA agreement

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Speaker 1: addresses them to some extent. But um, you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the unappreciated parts of the tax bill was that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: actually there are now reduced incentives to move upper move

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Speaker 1: operations overseas because you're not taxed on overseas profits. So

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Speaker 1: if your market is overseas, and increasingly for these automakers

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Speaker 1: for GM, their market is overseas, it may behoove them

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Speaker 1: profit wise to shift operations. Then let's go to the

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Speaker 1: North and Canada. Michael McKee, you were knee deep in

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Speaker 1: these negotiations as your fan in mind. Don Cherry of

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Speaker 1: Hockey acclaiming Canada was out yesterday on the value of

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Speaker 1: a Canadian made General Motors car was automobiles. The vast

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Speaker 1: part of this discussion, I mean, was that Christie Friedland's

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Speaker 1: number one focus autos and windsor it was the number

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Speaker 1: one focus of all three negotiators. The Canadians not particularly

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Speaker 1: happy with GM because they worked very hard to set

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Speaker 1: up and have to to keep the auto industry going

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Speaker 1: in Canada. And it's an interesting decision. I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: exactly if the Matthew have to run some models on it, Tom,

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Speaker 1: but the whole idea that a certain amount of production

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Speaker 1: has to be made by workers making more than sixteen

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Speaker 1: dollars an hour. Of the North American production was based

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Speaker 1: on the idea that a significant number of those automobiles

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Speaker 1: would be produced in the United States and Canada, where

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Speaker 1: wages are above twenty dollars. So if you take some

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Speaker 1: of the Canadian production offline, I'm not sure that doesn't

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Speaker 1: affect the way this deal would be executed. Now we're

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Speaker 1: a long way from that because it has to be

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Speaker 1: ratified by Congress. But it is an interesting wrinkle my

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Speaker 1: busy weekend ahead after the signing ceremony, what we need

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Speaker 1: to be looking for, Well, in terms of NAFTA, it

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Speaker 1: goes to Congress. You've already seen some Republicans in the

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Speaker 1: Senate oppose it. The US the administration strategy was to

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Speaker 1: try to sell this to Democrats, assuming Republicans would be

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Speaker 1: on board, sell it to Democrats as a left leaning

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Speaker 1: liberal document because it provided more worker protection and would

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Speaker 1: push for higher wages in Mexico as well as the

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Speaker 1: United States. But if they've got Republicans who are against it,

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Speaker 1: it may have to change their strategy. And of course

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Speaker 1: the trump card for President Trump would be to announce

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Speaker 1: he was withdrawing from the original NAFTA and give members

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Speaker 1: of Congress a choice of the noon NAFTA or nothing.

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Speaker 1: So it is a long road ahead for it, and

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Speaker 1: there are predictions that could take most of two thousand

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Speaker 1: nineteen to get it done. Mica McKee, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much from Waynes series. John. The Toyota propaganda, the dr

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Speaker 1: Coronado speaks about twenty three point four billion in direct

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Speaker 1: investment ten manufacturing assembly facilities for Toyota across America, nearly

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Speaker 1: fire Toyota and Alexa dealerships, and a hundred and thirty

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Speaker 1: six thousand direct and dealer employees. That was written maybe

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Speaker 1: twelve months ago to talk about the Alto sector. We

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Speaker 1: wake up Monday morning. Let's just say they've shaken hands,

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Speaker 1: they smile at each other, Julia, and things look okay.

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Speaker 1: How much long do we have to wait before we

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Speaker 1: start talking about Alto sniffs again? Probably not long. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think the notion that we're going to resolve any

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Speaker 1: big issues or get any real meaningful trade information out

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Speaker 1: of these meetings, that's just not realistic. We may get

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Speaker 1: some nice noises between China and the US, but the

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Speaker 1: latest actual proposal from China has been deemed unacceptable by Lightheiser,

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Speaker 1: Trump's trade advisor, and m on auto as we hear

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Speaker 1: that Trump is sort of got the itchy trigger finger

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Speaker 1: on on auto tariffs. So I think, you know, these

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Speaker 1: issues are going to keep coming back to the forefront.

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Speaker 1: They're not They're not gonna This weekend isn't going to

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Speaker 1: resolve any There will be some people who wake out

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Speaker 1: Monday morning. There will be a few the anchor their

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Speaker 1: expectations not for the rest of the year, but for

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Speaker 1: the rest of based on the mood of the weekend.

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Speaker 1: How much of a mistake is that. That would be

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Speaker 1: a huge mistake. That would be a huge mistake. We've

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Speaker 1: got a lot of wood to chop in terms of

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Speaker 1: these trade issues, and um, you know, some very big

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Speaker 1: decisions that will affect the outlook that we we just

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Speaker 1: won't know. We won't know right up until the beginning

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Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen whether Trump is going to impose the

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Speaker 1: next round of tariffs and how far he's going to

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Speaker 1: go with them, and that's going to be meaningful. The

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Speaker 1: lateral means mercantil is m for our audience. When somebody

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Speaker 1: says it's mercy teal or zero sum, translate that. What

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Speaker 1: does that mean? Well, it's it's the view that there's

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Speaker 1: a fixed pie and that globalism. You know, globalization isn't

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Speaker 1: about expanding opportunities, it's it's about us versus them. And

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Speaker 1: so we've seen that kind of develop more in the

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Speaker 1: political dynamic in Europe um certainly in the United States.

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Speaker 1: It's less of a dynamic in emerging markets, where globalization

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Speaker 1: has been so clearly beneficial, and I think that's where

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Speaker 1: China is trying to sort of step into the void

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Speaker 1: and UM serve as the trading partner and the signer

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Speaker 1: of multilateral agreements. And we'll see how this evolves, but

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Speaker 1: certainly this weekend isn't going to settle anything. And these

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Speaker 1: trends are pretty fra After a steady trend towards opening

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Speaker 1: up since World War Two, we're now seeing seeing that

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Speaker 1: turnaround at times of economic stress, and it's sometimes economic crisis.

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Speaker 1: G twenties can work in n T nine very effective

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Speaker 1: Shanghai at the Shanghai Accord. Are you confident that if

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Speaker 1: we enter a pair of economic stress dare I say crisis,

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Speaker 1: that you can have an effective G twenty. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not hopeless. I think that we still

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Speaker 1: have a lot of common interests and motivations to come

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Speaker 1: together in times of stress. I guess the worry is

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Speaker 1: that we're seeing more cracks than we have before, and

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Speaker 1: so there's a little bit more worry that times of

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Speaker 1: stress might lead to more stress rather than a unifying dynamic.

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Speaker 1: What I'd like to do right now, folks, does not

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Speaker 1: get into the Niete Grite two G zero, whatever, but

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Speaker 1: actually try to take a broader view away from the

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Speaker 1: news cycle. Someone qualified to do that is Ian Bremer

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Speaker 1: of Eurasia Group. You've seen him every I think I

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Speaker 1: have you been on CNN like fourteen times in the

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Speaker 1: last ten days. I don't think that's humanly possible, because well,

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Speaker 1: what we're thinking, maybe you haven't. Everybody wants to talk

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Speaker 1: to you. I just want to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: American foreign policy philosophy. Zakaria talks about a hub and spoke.

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Speaker 1: There's a Westphalian model back to the seventeenth century or whatever,

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Speaker 1: can't remember. What is our foreign policy going to be

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Speaker 1: in the next five or ten years? UM. We have

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Speaker 1: to decide as the United States whether we want to

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Speaker 1: have a seat at the table and helping to construct

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Speaker 1: what the next post American world order is going to

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Speaker 1: look like together with other countries, and we'd play a

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Speaker 1: pretty significant role, or are we going to abdicate and

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Speaker 1: respond to what other countries, most importantly China, come up with.

431
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: And over the course of the last ten years and

432
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: especially the last two, it increasingly looks like we're taking

433
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: the latter decision, maybe by default, maybe not intentionally. UM.

434
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: And that's gonna be a world we're gonna be less

435
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: happy with the backdrop of this is what I'm gonna

436
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: call luck an individualism, which is in the United States

437
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: we like to wake up and every man for himself

438
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: and failure is an esteemed view. And there's other cultures

439
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: as well. Is our past getting in the way of

440
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: a successful future given the new technology speed of information

441
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: in the world. Well, I mean, I do think there's

442
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: still an awful lot to be said about American entrepreneurship

443
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: and failing fast and failing frequently so we can try

444
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: new things. I mean, the Chinese are now a technology superpower,

445
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: and they're putting an enormous amount of money directed by

446
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,479
Speaker 1: the state into new technologies like the five G system,

447
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 1: like artificial intelligence. Um. But you know, those are not

448
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: a series of moon shots that could fail or could succeed.

449
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: The Chinese are putting enormous amounts of money into a

450
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: couple of what they think are very proven baskets. Um.

451
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: I I still think that it's much more likely that

452
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: m from a technology perspective, the Americans end up doing

453
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: much better as long as we continue to attract the

454
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: top talent, because we are going to be much more

455
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: flexible than what happened. I remember when Al Gore was

456
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: talking about the Information super Highway and he wanted to

457
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: build fiber like all over the country and all over

458
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: the world, which you know, you look back, think about

459
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: what an incredible mistake that would have been in recognizing it.

460
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: Within twenty years, people aren't using fiber anymore. I mean,

461
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: you know, you have to have the ability to fail,

462
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: and the Chinese have a harder time with that the Americans,

463
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: but the Chinese so much better at long term strategy.

464
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: In the US government isn't doing that, and that's particularly

465
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: damaging for all of those people in America that aren't entrepreneurs,

466
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: that aren't capitalists. They just need to be taken care

467
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 1: of by the community and by the government for a

468
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: hard job and a hard day's work and headline coming

469
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: across the tried representative bubb like Heia says he would

470
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: be surprised if the China dinner fails. Are you that helpful? Yeah?

471
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: I I think that I feel very confident with all

472
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: of the work that has been done between the Americans

473
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: and the Chinese over the last month and the run

474
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: up to this meeting and dinner for it to fail.

475
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 1: I really don't think it will be a disaster. The

476
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: question is whether we will get between these two leaders

477
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: something that looks like a framework agreement to allah North

478
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: Korea and the United States, which doesn't mean we're friendly,

479
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: but it does mean we can take a breath and

480
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: we can move away from this short countdown on escalation

481
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: of tariffs in January one. That would be a huge win.

482
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: The markets would love it. It's not clear we're going

483
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: to get that. But I have been a little bit

484
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: more optimistic than most because even though Trump beats up

485
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: on China, he doesn't beat up on Sheesi and Ping personally.

486
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: And as we all know, he's more more than capable

487
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: of insulting individuals when he feels like it. He wants

488
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: to show that She's and thing is maybe even an equal,

489
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: certainly close, that they are the two adults in the room,

490
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: and they're the ones that can actually get something done

491
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: for the world. So, and you've got better visibility the

492
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: most on these topics. And I'm actually really interesting what

493
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: you think the minimum condition of success actually is on

494
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: Saturday at that dinner, What is it? I think minimum

495
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: condition of success would be that both leaders agree that

496
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: we should now be engaged in substantive discussions negotiations around trade,

497
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: intellectual property deficits and other issues, and and give it

498
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: a timeline, UM that would allow UM for a step

499
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: away from from hip for tat escalation towards trade and

500
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: technology war. That would be a minimum condition of success,

501
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: and I think there's a good chance we meet that.

502
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: And UM just we're going to run out of time here,

503
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: but thank you so much for your support this year,

504
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: and we look forward to a year in view with you,

505
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: raise your group. If you were worried about the state

506
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: of the nation coast to coast, if you're worried about

507
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: the law, justice, law enforcement, whatever your politics, this is

508
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: without question my interview of the day, indeed my interview

509
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: of the week. Garrett Graff wrote one of my books

510
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: of the summer, Robert Kaplan, The Return of Marco Polo's World,

511
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: and also Garrett Grafts The Threat Matrix. I can't say

512
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: enough about it is a rolling history of the FBI.

513
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: And Garrett, we are thrilled to have you on from

514
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: Scenic Vermont today and I want to go right to

515
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: the opening. The final minutes of George W. Bush's eight

516
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: years as president ticked away. Is Bob Mueller stepped down

517
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: onto the inaugural platform? Is the Bob Mueller now the

518
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: same Bob Mueller that opens the threat Matrix? Absolutely? And

519
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: I think what you see is exactly the same person

520
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: that everyone expected when Rod Rosenstein appointed him as special counsel.

521
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: You He is deeply methodical, very careful, uh, and incredibly thorough. Um.

522
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: I mean, this investigation, every single court filing that has

523
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: come out of it, indictment to the agreement or anything else,

524
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: has been deeper, more detailed, more knowledgeable, and more insightful

525
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: than anyone imagined that he possessed prior to his public

526
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: steps with A must read, folks, is Garrett Graff's essay

527
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: of yesterday in Wired Magazine going over this detail Mueller

528
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: Cohen lied about Trump organizations Moscow project? Garrett, what happened yesterday?

529
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: What's the sea change that leads to the execution patterns

530
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: of Bob Muller that you did in the threat Matrix?

531
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: What occurred yesterday that was so distinctive? Well, the significance

532
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: of Michael Cohen leading guilty to lying to Congress about

533
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: his work on Trump Tower Moscow is in deeply significant

534
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: and has become almost more significant as every hour has

535
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: passed and the reality of what he is saying has

536
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: set in. Uh. Bob Muller, in his seventeen month investigation

537
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: so far, has identified two separate criminal conspiracies that aided

538
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's election. In one was a criminal conspiracy run

539
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: by the Russian government at the highest levels that was

540
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: focused on cyber operations and information influence operations. And then

541
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: the second was a criminal conspiracy spearheaded by Donald Trump

542
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: and Michael Cohen together aimed at campaign finance ditiolations around

543
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: hush money payments to Stormy Daniels and others. What Bob

544
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: Muller told us yesterday in court with Michael Cohen's guilty

545
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: plea is that the central figure in one of those

546
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: criminal conspiracies, Michael Cohen, was actively in aged in trying

547
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: to contact and seek assistance from the central figure in

548
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: the other criminal conspiracy of Vladimir Putin. Garrett and wondering

549
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: if you could just step back for a second and

550
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: enlighten people a little bit about the personality of Robert

551
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: Mueller and how important he feels it is to keep

552
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: tradition and what you even described as recognizable totems of

553
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: the past in place, and even to the point of

554
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: how he wears his watch says something about it. Yeah,

555
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a man who was shaped deeply

556
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: by fighting in Vietnam. He was a Marine platoon commander

557
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: in Quang Tree Province in nineteen sixty nineteen sixty nine,

558
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: where he received a Bronze Star with valor for leading

559
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: his men in combat and uh and was also shot

560
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: receiving a purple heart or being shot in an ambush.

561
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: And so he came back to the United States, has

562
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: spent most of the rest of his career nearly fifty

563
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: years in public service, mostly with the Justice Department, and

564
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: has us as you said, sort of still wears his

565
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: watch on the inside of his wrist like a marine officer,

566
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: afraid that a glint off a watch will give away

567
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: a hidden position. And when he was FBI director, he

568
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: was famous for always wearing a white shirt. Remember he

569
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: took over the FBI on September fourth, two thousand one.

570
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: Lad this wrenching transformation of the FBI from a domestic

571
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: law enforcement agency into an international intelligence agency primarily focused

572
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: on counter terrorism efforts. And I asked him at one

573
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: point why he was so methodical about always is wearing

574
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: the white shirt. I mean, there was a joke around

575
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: his top aids and he said, you know, I was

576
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: leading the FBI through a time of incredible transition, and

577
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: I knew that I needed to make sure that people

578
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 1: understood that this was still the same FBI. And in

579
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: Jager Hoover's time, every FBI agent wore a white shirt.

580
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: And that was what I wanted to do, to show

581
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: everyone that this was the same organization that they had

582
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: signed up to serve. And this is someone uh, you know,

583
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: between those two jobs, Vietnam and being a marine in

584
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: Vietnam and leading the FBI after nine eleven. One of

585
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: the things that I think is so important to understand

586
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,959
Speaker 1: about Bob Miller's character because he looks at leading this

587
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: UH Special Counsel investigation, the you know, one of the

588
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: most important, consequential, high profile, controversial UH probes in American

589
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 1: political history. He probably wakes up every morning and thinks

590
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: that this is only the third hardest job he's ever had.

591
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: And the Cristal moment in the Threat makes Major Scarrett,

592
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: where he goes into that hangar in Scotland and tries

593
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: to piece together a broken airplane certainly life changing as well, Garrett,

594
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: who has his back right now? He's in Vietnam and

595
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: people had his back in Vietnam, and on and on

596
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: and on. Who has Bob Muller's back in two thousand nineteen. Well,

597
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that has been very

598
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: clear over the last seventeen months since his appointment is

599
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: that Rob Rosenstein has actually done a very able job

600
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: of protecting and sheltering Mueller's investigation. Um, and that there

601
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: have been some unlikely allies along the way. Don McGann,

602
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: the White House Council to President Trump, we now know,

603
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: really spent some time working on ensuring that Bob Muller

604
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: didn't get fired, that that Mueller's probe had time in

605
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: space to come plead its inquiry as one would expect

606
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: under the American tradition of the rule of law. Is well,

607
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: go ahead then place. I got any questions, But is

608
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: it matter to Garrett Graph that there's a Democrat House now?

609
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: I mean, is it really at the margin going to

610
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: change the debate? Does Bob Mullard care that there's a

611
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: there's a Pelosi House? Well, it does, and I and

612
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 1: I think that one of those things. That's really important

613
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: to draw a distinction here is that congressional oversight is

614
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: an important and legitimate part of the constitutional checks and

615
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: balances that our founders put into place, and that that's

616
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: an entirely normal process. It's not supposed to be a

617
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: partisan process. You know. The whole point of coequal branches

618
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 1: of government is that they each have the ability to

619
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: investigate and check and balance each other. So the fact

620
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,720
Speaker 1: that that the Republicans in the House and the Senate

621
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: have so thoroughly given up on oversight of the executive

622
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: branch over the last two years, that is more the

623
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: historical aberration than the Democrats coming into the House and

624
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: planning an expansive series of oversight hearings. And one of

625
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: the one of the first areas where I think we

626
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: are going to see that that really matters is building

627
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: off of Michael Cohen's guilty plea yesterday, that the House

628
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: Intelligence Committee has a whole host of transcripts where Democratic

629
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: members have been saying that they believe that witnesses before

630
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: their committee lied under oath to Congress, and that Devin

631
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: Nuni as the House Intelligence Chair, the Republican House Intelligence Chair,

632
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: has prohibited those transcripts from being passed over two prosecutors

633
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: to investigate for perjury charges, and so that I think

634
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: in January you're going to see those transcripts get the

635
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: mental referral that they probably deserved. Garrett, we're out of time.

636
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: I have to leave it there. Thank you so much

637
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: for the revisit. Greatly appreciate again the Threat Matrix, my

638
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: book of the summer, Garrett Graph can't say enough. And

639
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: see the Wired magazine pieces well Coen led about Trump

640
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: organizations Moscow Project. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Surveillance podcast.

641
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: Subscribe and listen to interviews on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or

642
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: whichever podcast platform you prefer. I'm on Twitter at Tom

643
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: Keane before the podcast. You can always catch us worldwide.

644
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: I'm Bloomberg Radio