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Speaker 1: So the way gas slighting works is it's a denial

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Speaker 1: of a person's reality. That's step one. I never said

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Speaker 1: that that never happened. Now you're already a little off

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Speaker 1: balance because I'm very authoritatively saying something didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: That by itself is not gaslighting.

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Speaker 1: Now the step two of gaslighting is then I tell

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Speaker 1: you there's something wrong with you.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm sick of. I'm sick of

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Speaker 2: living with an unhinged, paranoid lunatic. That's what I'm tired of.

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Speaker 2: There's the gaslight.

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Speaker 1: Now there's a step three.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one

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Speaker 3: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every

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Speaker 3: one of you who choose to come here to become happier, healthier,

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Speaker 3: and more healed. And I'm so grateful to our incredible audience.

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Speaker 3: It's been phenomenal to see how much you've been listening, learning,

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Speaker 3: applying in your lives over the past few months. I

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Speaker 3: love seeing the reviews, I love seeing all the tags

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Speaker 3: on Instagram and on Twitter and the video on TikTok.

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Speaker 3: It means the world to me that you're also sharing

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Speaker 3: and passing this forward. And I'm so excited to be

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Speaker 3: talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book,

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Speaker 3: Eight Rules of Love is out and I cannot wait

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Speaker 3: to share it with you. I am so so excited

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Speaker 3: for you to read this book, for you to listen

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Speaker 3: to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't

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Speaker 3: got it already, make sure you go to eight Rules

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Speaker 3: of Love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying

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Speaker 3: to find, keep, or let go of love. So if

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Speaker 3: you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling

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Speaker 3: with love, make sure you grab this book. And I'd

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Speaker 3: love to invite you to come and see me for

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Speaker 3: my global tour Love Rules. Go to Jshadytour dot com

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Speaker 3: to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more.

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Speaker 3: I can't wait to see you this year. And Today's

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Speaker 3: guest is someone that I've known for a couple of years.

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Speaker 3: We've interacted in some really interesting environments, and I have

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Speaker 3: to say that whenever she speaks, I'm like wow, Like

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Speaker 3: I'm completely in awe. Her insights are phenomenal in real time.

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Speaker 3: I've been parts of like almost group thinks, And whenever

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Speaker 3: Today's guest shares an insight or shares some wisdom or

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Speaker 3: shares a perspective. It's so powerful that you know that

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Speaker 3: there's years of experience, there's decades of learning that go

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Speaker 3: behind it, and so I feel really honored that I

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Speaker 3: get to have this conversation. She's been on the show

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Speaker 3: once before, but we were just talking beforehand about how

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Speaker 3: he was doing the pandemics that was very pandemic focused.

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Speaker 3: But I think today is going to be really truly

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Speaker 3: powerful for you. I'm speaking about the one and only

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Speaker 3: Dr Romeny, who's a licensed clinical psychologist in LA, a

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Speaker 3: professor at California State University LA, and the founder and

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Speaker 3: CEO of Lunar Education, Training and Consulting. Doctor Rameny is

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Speaker 3: an author of several books. I recommend them all, including

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Speaker 3: Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship

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Speaker 3: with a Narcissist and Don't You Know Who I Am?

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Speaker 3: How To Stay Sane in an Era of narcissism and

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Speaker 3: titlement and incivility. Now, Dr Romony will be adding the

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Speaker 3: role of host to a resume. She launches a new podcast,

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Speaker 3: Navigating Narcissism with Dr Romney, a show that focuses on

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Speaker 3: narcissism and its impact on relationships. Now I know all

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Speaker 3: of you are fascinated by relationships, narcissism and your mind.

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Speaker 3: There's no one better than doctor Romedy, Doctor Romiey, thank

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Speaker 3: you so much for doing this.

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Speaker 2: That's a very big introduction. So I hope I can

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Speaker 2: live up to you.

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Speaker 3: It's true, and I think we have.

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Speaker 2: We've been in so many rooms.

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Speaker 3: We have another mutual vian. We people that we work with,

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Speaker 3: and I really mean it, like, I love the way

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Speaker 3: you listen, and I love the way you articulate what

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Speaker 3: you're hearing and connecting and putting the dots together. And

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Speaker 3: you're so in demand, so that actually have you here

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Speaker 3: today is really really special. I wanted to start off

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Speaker 3: by understanding a bit about how you came to this

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Speaker 3: work and like how narcissism, because today you're known as

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Speaker 3: the person who knows literally everything about narcism, was deeply

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Speaker 3: studying it. When did narcissism become an obsession or a

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Speaker 3: focus or a point of study for you?

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Speaker 1: Sort of around two thousand and four, two thousand and

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Speaker 1: three thereabouts, and it was it was in a research

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Speaker 1: capacity looking at what was happening in healthcare settings. When

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Speaker 1: you had really demanding, antagonistic, entitled patients and the toll

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Speaker 1: that was taking in healthcare settings, which seems so obvious,

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Speaker 1: but that led me to do a deeper dive and

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Speaker 1: I realized how little this had been researched in sort

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Speaker 1: of healthcare situations. I was specifically working in the area

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Speaker 1: of HIV, and so that started a research program. At

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Speaker 1: that same time, I also had a clinical practice, and

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Speaker 1: in my clinical practice, you know, more and more people

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Speaker 1: were kind of coming in with the same relationship story.

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Speaker 1: Because I was studying narcissism in my research, I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: how interesting, let me just shed this light on the

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Speaker 1: patterns they're seeing that are quite antagonistic and that just

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Speaker 1: knowing that, and they said, well, can this change the

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Speaker 1: answer to that's pretty much no. Once they knew it

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Speaker 1: could really be shifted that much, it totally changed their

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Speaker 1: point of view and lifted a lot of self blame.

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Speaker 1: So those were the two things kind of happening, and

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Speaker 1: that honestly, should I say or should I go? My

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Speaker 1: first book on narcissism came from after the sessions. These

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Speaker 1: clients were so overwhelmed they'd often say, could you just

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Speaker 1: put this in an email? Right? And I really felt

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Speaker 1: for them because I could see. It was a real,

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Speaker 1: real deer in the headlights experience, so I'd knock out

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Speaker 1: something in an email. It also helped me organize my

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Speaker 1: thoughts and then I thought, okay, I keep writing the

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Speaker 1: same email.

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Speaker 2: So let's just make that a book.

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Speaker 1: So when the world started sort of going upside down,

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Speaker 1: I thought, this is interesting. I am going to approach

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Speaker 1: this topic because I thought, well, this is actually what's

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Speaker 1: happening right now, and everyone was using the word A

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Speaker 1: lot of people weren't using it correctly, and that's where

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Speaker 1: that came from. Then from there is where it got interesting.

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Speaker 1: Was writer, that's what I do. But two young people

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Speaker 1: approached me, former students, and had said there were students

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Speaker 1: they were finishing school at the time.

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Speaker 2: They said, you know, you should really be on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: And I said, that's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: You know, at my age, it didn't make sense. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't how I consumed media. And they said, let's let's

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Speaker 1: take a few months, let's see what kind of how

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Speaker 1: this space works. And over time years of sort of

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Speaker 1: honing it and tuning it and all of that, that

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Speaker 1: was actually where all of a sudden, this reach happened

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Speaker 1: on this YouTube channel.

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Speaker 2: So it was an evolution.

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Speaker 1: But what I found was where the real sort of

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Speaker 1: pivot was. For me, the world of mental health was

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Speaker 1: not recognizing what was happening to people in these relationships.

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Speaker 1: And that's when I got angry. And to me, anger

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Speaker 1: is a great motivator. I thought these people had going

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Speaker 1: to therapists and being invalidated, and maybe it's how you communicate,

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Speaker 1: and maybe you weren't trying hard enough. And I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, and that's really for me when it sort

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Speaker 1: of felt like a revolution, I thought, something's got to give.

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Speaker 1: And if this means that people are going to say,

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Speaker 1: you know what's wrong with you and you have a

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Speaker 1: target on your back, I mean I've been called every

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Speaker 1: name in the book, and people said this is an

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Speaker 1: unempathic therapist.

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Speaker 2: How could she?

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Speaker 1: And I thought, oh my goodness. I thought people are

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Speaker 1: trying to shut this discourse down through shame, and I thought, nah,

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Speaker 1: let's just keep going. I'm old enough to not really

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Speaker 1: care what people think.

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Speaker 2: About me anymore.

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Speaker 1: And so that's really where it came from. And now

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Speaker 1: that's just sort of the focus. The narcissism peace to

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Speaker 1: me is interesting from a scientific framing and all of that,

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Speaker 1: but the real passion for me is working with people

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Speaker 1: who have been through these relationships and have never really

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Speaker 1: felt recognized, seen or heard, to help them with their

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Speaker 1: healing and help them find themselves so they feel that

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Speaker 1: they can stand on their own in the world and

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Speaker 1: actually have their voice again. That's the mission.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so important and so needed, and I'm so glad

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Speaker 3: that you're doing it. I feel like this is more

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Speaker 3: common as an a currents today than ever before. And

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Speaker 3: do you think that's because narcissism was somewhat hidden for

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Speaker 3: many years in the sense that it just happened behind

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Speaker 3: closed doors, or like, why is it only now that

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Speaker 3: we're talking about it so much?

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Speaker 1: That's such a good question, Jay, you know, and it's

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Speaker 1: almost like, without giving you two pedantic a history lesson

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Speaker 1: is that people have been the word narcissism in this application,

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Speaker 1: like about other people, didn't really even start coming into

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Speaker 1: the literature, and until maybe the very late eighteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: or early nineteen hundreds. Then some psychoanalytic theorists talked about it,

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Speaker 1: but it was a really quiet backwater in the world

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Speaker 1: of mental health, and mental health and psychology are new fields.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't even until nineteen eighty where we saw it

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Speaker 1: come with the idea of narcissistic personality disorder, which is

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Speaker 1: its own issue. That's very recent to me. What is

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Speaker 1: that you know forty not even fifty years ago?

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Speaker 2: And so this people have been.

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Speaker 1: Narcissistic since there have been people and in actually and

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Speaker 1: it's interesting framing on it can actually come from. There's

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Speaker 1: fascinating work and if you've never read it, I can't

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Speaker 1: recommend this book enough. The book Behave by Robert Sapalski

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Speaker 1: maybe one of the most extraordinary books I think has

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Speaker 1: been written in the last ten years. And to me,

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Speaker 1: Sepalski is a giant in all fields related to psychology, and.

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Speaker 2: He makes this incredibly.

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Speaker 1: He's talking about aggression sort of why why do people

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Speaker 1: behave aggressively? Why do people behave badly? And we do

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Speaker 1: know the science has shown it. Narcissism is associated with

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Speaker 1: aggression and violence, like this isn't just like these people

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Speaker 1: are handful. There's actually a risk here and we're not

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Speaker 1: addressing this risk. But when you look at what he says,

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Speaker 1: they say, look when you look at the evolution of

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Speaker 1: human history, he said, what we do see is a

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Speaker 1: greater level of antagonism and people who came more from

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Speaker 1: cultures where they were hurting, hurting animals, goats, whatever, cows.

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Speaker 1: Why because you can and steal those things. But people

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Speaker 1: who are pastoralists, people who farmed, you really can't go

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Speaker 1: get up and steal a field. I guess you could

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Speaker 1: steal some of the ears of corn, but you're not

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Speaker 1: going to make off with the whole field. Farming is

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Speaker 1: more collaborative, hurting is more individual. So if you go

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Speaker 1: back and that is we're talking hundreds, if not thousands

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Speaker 1: of years of human history, how people sort of interacted

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Speaker 1: through the world economically, you look at history lessons. I

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Speaker 1: remember if my daughter was taking world history, we had

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Speaker 1: a very long drive to school, so I said, why

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Speaker 1: don't you teach me what you learned on the way

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Speaker 1: to school. She'd study. I'd learned something. But what I

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Speaker 1: thought over and over again over five hundred years of

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Speaker 1: world history, a lot of drives over many years, is

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Speaker 1: that what we were seeing is that these people in

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Speaker 1: the history books were all very antagonistic. They were all

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Speaker 1: very narcissistic. They didn't have empathy. They were arrogant, they

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Speaker 1: were aggressive, they were controlling, They lacked empathy, they had

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Speaker 1: to be the hero, like it was always.

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Speaker 2: The same story.

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Speaker 1: So I actually think narcissism, narcissistic relationships, all of this

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Speaker 1: has been around since time immemorial. It was only because

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Speaker 1: psychology is a field in its relative infancy that we're

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Speaker 1: only talking about it in this way now. And it

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Speaker 1: is only in the last fifteen years that we have

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Speaker 1: actually started paying attention to the harm this personality style

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Speaker 1: does to.

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Speaker 2: The other person in a relationship.

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Speaker 3: It's incredible, isn't it when you look at it from

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Speaker 3: that perspective about how long people have suffered from or

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Speaker 3: suffered with something because our learning was still catching up

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Speaker 3: with its experience, and you think about anyone who hasn't

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Speaker 3: lived in the last fifteen to twenty five years, they

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Speaker 3: potentially were called names, outcasts, misunderstood, unheard, unseen.

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Speaker 1: As you're saying, absolutely, I mean, Jay, I have worked

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Speaker 1: with clients who are older. Okay, so they've been in

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Speaker 1: thirty forty fifty year marriages that have been difficult from

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Speaker 1: the very very beginning, And they said, you know what,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until I watch videos, It wasn't until I

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Speaker 1: read your books. It wasn't until the last five to

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Speaker 1: ten years that this finally had a name, and until

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Speaker 1: then I assumed it was my fault. I wasn't trying

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Speaker 1: hard enough. I was complaining. I was being unrealistic about

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Speaker 1: what a marriage should look like.

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Speaker 2: That's what they were.

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Speaker 1: They were basically, in essence, turning it back on themselves,

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Speaker 1: blaming themselves, and culture wasn't helping, you know, people saying, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess you're not. Marriage is tough. You have to

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Speaker 1: make compromises. That's just how they are. They don't mean it.

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Speaker 1: Their bark is worse than their bite, and so people

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Speaker 1: would internalize that. And if you really want to look

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Speaker 1: at it this way. Even historically, we didn't really start

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Speaker 1: talking about domestic violence until the late sixties into the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. That's when Leonora Walker made the whole sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, the circle of abuse in a relationship

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Speaker 1: and all of that. This is all new, and that

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Speaker 1: was in the seventies. To this day, we still do

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Speaker 1: not accord emotional abuse this same level as we do

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Speaker 1: physical abuse. And yet I got to tell you, everyone

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Speaker 1: who's physically abused is emotionally abused. But emotional emotionally abused

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Speaker 1: people are showing up with the same level of symptomatology,

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Speaker 1: often the same level of post traumatic kinds of decrements

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Speaker 1: and functioning, you name it. So we're seeing is this

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Speaker 1: is all slowly evolving. Interestingly, the field of mental health

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Speaker 1: is still slow to catch up.

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Speaker 2: That's something that's got to change.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, No, I'm so glad we're having this conversation,

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Speaker 3: and thank you for letting us go on a history lesson,

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Speaker 3: because I think it's really important, quite frankly, to understand,

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Speaker 3: to really get context of where we are seeing. As

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Speaker 3: you said, these words are thrown around now and they're

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Speaker 3: also everywhere, and you've probably done this a million times

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Speaker 3: before our audience. Could you please define narcissism and then

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Speaker 3: narcissistic personality disorders because I do feel now, as you said,

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Speaker 3: a lot of people are using this on a daily basis.

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Speaker 3: And while it's healthy that our language is evolving, I

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Speaker 3: do often find that people also get wrongly labeled or

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Speaker 3: early labeled, or whatever it may be.

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Speaker 1: I totally agree this This is a big problem struggle.

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Speaker 1: Call it what you will. Is that, so narcissism's a

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Speaker 1: personality style? Okay, So if a personality style could be

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Speaker 1: anything including narcissism, agreeableness, introversion, neuroticism. Those are all personality styles, right,

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Speaker 1: So narcissism's on the shelf with them. Now we would

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Speaker 1: view narcissism, which sits under a bigger umbrella called antagonism,

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Speaker 1: as a more maladaptive style because their behavior can often

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Speaker 1: put them at odds with other people. Things like the entitlement,

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Speaker 1: the arrogance, the manipulativeness, the grandiosity, a sort of really

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable patterns.

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Speaker 2: That's narcissism. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Now when we jump the rails to narcissistic personality disorder,

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Speaker 1: it's a whole different game. The reason people really get

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Speaker 1: kind of a be in their bonnet about this needs

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Speaker 1: to be diagnosed by a licensed mental health practitioner is

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Speaker 1: because in order for a person to be diagnosed with

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Speaker 1: a mental illness, not only do they have to have

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Speaker 1: a laundry list of whatever is associated with that. Whether

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Speaker 1: it's depression, anxieties, becauzophrenia, bipolar disorder, substance use disorders doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Personality disorders are the same. So you have to have

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Speaker 1: that list, and this is the ringer.

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Speaker 2: You have to be able.

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Speaker 1: To show that that person is either experiencing something we

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Speaker 1: call subjective distress meaning that they're uncomfortable or social and

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Speaker 1: occupational impairment meaning that their life is kind of getting

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Speaker 1: wrecked by this and they're aware of it. It's a

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Speaker 1: lot of awareness and discomfort that many people who are

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Speaker 1: narcissistic don't have. In fact, they're kind of sitting on

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Speaker 1: top of the world. They got a partner, they got

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Speaker 1: a side piece, they've got a they've got money, they've

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Speaker 1: got success, they've got power. They're thinking, I ain't got

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Speaker 1: no problems. Now they're burning down everyone around them. But

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Speaker 1: you cannot diagnose someone because someone else is unhappy with

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Speaker 1: their behavior. That's not what our diagnostic systems were designed

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Speaker 1: to do. So when we get into these antagonistic disorders

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Speaker 1: like narcissistic personality disorder, it's pretty rare that people with

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Speaker 1: these personalities get into treatment. And when they do, it's

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Speaker 1: for some other reason. Their marriage is blowing up, they're

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Speaker 1: using substances. In some cases, they're depressed, something's gone wrong

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Speaker 1: at work, they've been involved in something sort of publicly

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Speaker 1: that makes them look bad, so they go to therapy

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Speaker 1: to save face. So the thing that gets them into

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Speaker 1: therapy is not like, oh, I've noticed I don't have

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Speaker 1: much empathy, and I'm really entitled and arrogant.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for help with that, said no one ever. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So what they're.

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Speaker 1: Coming in with something else, often very arrogantly, like okay,

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Speaker 1: I see your fancy certificates on the wall, doc, So

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Speaker 1: how long is it going to take you to fix me?

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Speaker 1: I'm paying a lot for your time. Very dismissive, very arrogant. Now,

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Speaker 1: every so often you'll see narcissistic, not every so often,

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Speaker 1: not uncommonly in people who have not statistic personality disorder.

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Speaker 1: They may also have something else going on, like depression

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Speaker 1: or anxiety, or, like I said, a substance use disorder.

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Speaker 1: The therapist is going to focus, as we do, on

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Speaker 1: the more acute issue, the depression, the anxiety, substance use disorder,

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Speaker 1: and they'll try to manage that right through a combination

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Speaker 1: of therapy, maybe medication, whatever they use. Time goes on,

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Speaker 1: the mood's lifting a little, or the anxiety's managed, or

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Speaker 1: they're sober, but they're still really awful and entitled and

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Speaker 1: arrogant and all this other stuff. And because a lot

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Speaker 1: of therapists don't bring personality stuff into the room, they

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Speaker 1: don't think about it. They're thinking that maybe I'm not

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Speaker 1: doing this right. This person still is not like they're

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Speaker 1: still not behaving nicely, but they're not using anymore and

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Speaker 1: they seem to be Their sleep seems.

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Speaker 2: To be better.

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Speaker 1: And so you see what I'm saying is the personality

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Speaker 1: is like the baseline. It's the thrum under the other

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Speaker 1: stuff that's happening on top. That's the disorder. You have

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Speaker 1: a personality. I have a personality. For example, I'm introverted,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not, incredibly introverted person. That is my personality.

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Speaker 1: It is not going to change next week.

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Speaker 2: I am not going to be the life of the party.

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Speaker 1: Okay, on any given Saturday night. I tell you the probabilities.

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Speaker 1: I am home reading a book, watching TV, or doing

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Speaker 1: something ridiculous at home. But I am at home, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I can't change that. If you said to me, oh,

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Speaker 1: come on, doctor, we're gonna make you extroverted, I'm like, no,

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Speaker 1: you're not. And if you said, but you have to

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Speaker 1: become extroverted, I might be able to stretch myself, but

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Speaker 1: I'll collapse or I'll be exhausted, or you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: So that's personality. It is who we are.

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Speaker 1: It's a psychological fingerprint of sorts, but it's always right

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Speaker 1: under the surface. So you're not going to make the

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Speaker 1: introverted extrovert. You're not going to make the neurotic person

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Speaker 1: more sort of relaxed and impulsive. You're not going to

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Speaker 1: take a conscientious person and turn them into someone who

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Speaker 1: is sort of acts out, impulsive and doesn't plan. These

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Speaker 1: personalities sort of set who we are. And so this

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Speaker 1: is in the case of people who have narcissistic personalities,

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Speaker 1: they have very disagreeable personalities. They have antagonistic personalities. That's

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Speaker 1: the difference. And so before people say it, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'll say, does this person have a lack of empathy?

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Speaker 1: Are they entitled? Do they seek validation? Sometimes people say, well,

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Speaker 1: I think he's narcissistic because he cheated on me. I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: he cheated on you, that's all I got here. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this dude's narcissistic. You'd have to tell

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Speaker 1: me a little bit more about this person's behavior. And

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Speaker 1: I think people are using this as a buzzword to

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Speaker 1: label or talk about someone who did something that aggravated them.

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Speaker 1: And you've got to remember, narcissism's not a one off. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so if one day someone did something, they're having a

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Speaker 1: bad week. But in general, they're a very even tempered, warm, compassionate, kind, mindful,

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Speaker 1: a self aware person. That's who they are most of

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Speaker 1: the time. But then twenty things are going wrong. Parent

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Speaker 1: are sick, child is sick, job is going badly, and

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Speaker 1: they're a little bit more short fused. But they're even saying,

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Speaker 1: I am not at my best, I am so sorry,

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Speaker 1: cut me a wide berth, you know, I'm so so.

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Speaker 1: And they're very aware that they're not behaving well. They

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Speaker 1: they're not they're not behaving well. In that case, isn't narcissism.

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Speaker 1: It may just be a bad week.

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Speaker 3: I hope that's giving you a real context and a

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Speaker 3: so much for that genuine masterclass. As I guess where

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Speaker 3: I want to start is do we have any understanding

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Speaker 3: or how much is our current understanding on how people

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00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 3: end up within narcissistic personality, because I think that's healthy

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00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 3: for people to have context over too. Like you said,

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Speaker 3: like whatever personality we are, we can't change that core

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00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 3: root base of it. So it's worth knowing how we

427
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430
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 3: us understand what are some of those facets or elements

431
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 3: that brought people into being narcissist as a personality.

432
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 2: Right, So this is where it gets interesting.

433
00:22:59,119 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 3: Right.

434
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 1: So, personal is a funny little thing where it's it's

435
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a genetic piece to it,

436
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: and that genetic piece is something we call temperament. Okay,

437
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: so we all have temperaments and we see it even

438
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: in babies. Some babies you hold them in their arms,

439
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 1: your arms, they soothe like this. They're easy, they're smiley,

440
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: they're often they're just content, you know, and they and

441
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: they're often kind. And even as soon as that point

442
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: where they're sort of aware of who other people are

443
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: and toddlerhood, they come into preschool age, they're very aware.

444
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: They'll take their cookie, they'll split it and have There's

445
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: some kids like that. Right then there are those kids who,

446
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: no matter what you do, they arch their back and

447
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,479
Speaker 1: they cannot be soothed, and they're er, and they always

448
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: need attention, and they always want attention, and they're mean

449
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: to their siblings. And they take not only the one cookie,

450
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 1: but they take all the cookies.

451
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 2: Right.

452
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: That stuff, that biological stuff, is foundational in many ways

453
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: to our personalities. I'd say to everyone, if you have

454
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: access to anyone who knew you early in life, see

455
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: how well like they describe your infancy or your toddlerhood,

456
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: and how well it's tracks to who you are now.

457
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 1: Every so often, as a shrink, I get to talk

458
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: to like a parental figure in that person's life. Never

459
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: been wrong, yet every time that baby temperament. Toddler temperament tracks.

460
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you were a sweet baby. I am

461
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: so sure. She'd say, Jay is the sweet as a

462
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: little baby. Oh my god, No, they'll say, oh, this one,

463
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: you know, definitely not. And I was a super super

464
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: super sweet baby, you know. And I think I'm a

465
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 1: pretty sweet adult actually, you know, but a little intense

466
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 1: but sweet, you know, you know, But I bet you were.

467
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: And so that temperament forms like a seed. All right,

468
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: that's a seed right there. That temperament is how the

469
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: world reacts to us. That kid who's and won't be

470
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: soothed and needs attention and needs to cartwheel through the

471
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 1: living room. The world doesn't like the kid, that kid

472
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: that much, right, They go through Babysitters don't like them.

473
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 2: Parents are just a little bit of eye rolling.

474
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: Kids are perceptive, and it might even affect attachment because

475
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: the parent is so exhausted to dealing with that tough child.

476
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: It could even impair attachment experiences. And then they go

477
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: into school. Teachers don't like them as much. Even peers

478
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: might be frustrated by them. They're having more invalidating experiences. Right,

479
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 1: that's a little bit of some of the seed of

480
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: what we see can be narcissism, right, because narcissism also

481
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: has an attachment piece to it. In general, people of

482
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: narcissistic personalities often have more anxious or avoidant attachment styles,

483
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: a little bit more anxious than anything else.

484
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 2: And why that be.

485
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: It might be that there was chaos in the family.

486
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: There may have been a bad relationship between the parents.

487
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: The parents may have been distracted with their own lives.

488
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: They couldn't be bothered with having kids. There may have

489
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: been literal violence, mental illness, whatever substance use. Something was

490
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: happening in that early environment that may have impacted the

491
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: attachment experience. That's also associated with narcissism. We know that

492
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: inside cases, trauma early in life is associated with narcissism.

493
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: But that gets tricky because in the vast majority of

494
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: cases it's not because the person might say, well, I

495
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: had trauma in childhood, I'm not narcissistic. Yeah, that's the

496
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: bed I would take. But we do see that sometimes,

497
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: especially if that impacts attachment, that's going to make a difference.

498
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 2: Those are sort of.

499
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: What I consider more of the sort of the difficult

500
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: early circumstances, the adverse childhood experience origins of narcissism. However,

501
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: there's another side to it, which is the overindulged kind

502
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: of pathway to narcissism. It's like, think of narcissism as

503
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: Rome and multiple roads coming into Rome, right, And in

504
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: the sort of over indulged pathways, this is where you

505
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: see sort of your standard spoiled kid. The parents will

506
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: give the kid anything, things and experiences and money.

507
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: But here's the ringer.

508
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 1: And it was a very interesting study that came out

509
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, where it's not just the spoiling,

510
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: but it's telling the child, you're more special than any

511
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: of these other kids. Not just that you're special. That's

512
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: a lovely message, but you're more special. You don't that

513
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: line's not for you. You know the other kids wait

514
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: in that line, I'll figure you or you're too special

515
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: to wait in that line. That sort of that you

516
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: are better than the others, you're more special than the others,

517
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: which a narcissistic parent may do to their child. And

518
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: that's how we'll sometimes see narcissistic parents may beget narcissistic kids,

519
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: but not as a rule. So but all these pathways

520
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: i'm describing don't always end up in narcissism.

521
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: Why some end up that way?

522
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: I do think the temperament piece probably pays a bigger

523
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: role than we think. And I've worked with many, many

524
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: narcissistic clients over my years of practice, and I've seen

525
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: all of these idiology origin pathways play out. But depending

526
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: on the origin, that will affect how the narcissism looks

527
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: in adulthood. The more kind of traumatizing neglect origin will

528
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: result in narcissism people who are a bit more sullen, resentful, aggrieved, sad,

529
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: socially anxious, whereas the spoiled child narcissism will end up

530
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: a little bit more grandiose. So that that I hope

531
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: that makes it.

532
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 3: Clears a lot of color. H It's a lot of color, right,

533
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges we

534
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 3: see is that when I speak to people, whether I'm

535
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 3: working with them or I meet them, or when they're

536
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: working with a therapist, and then I'm connecting with them

537
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 3: in another part of their life, most people don't realize

538
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 3: they're with someone narcissistic until after they leave. Like when

539
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: you write a book, should I stay or should I go?

540
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: I found a lot of people figure it out towards

541
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 3: the end. It's not something you spot very quickly, at

542
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 3: least from people I know. And I would love to

543
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 3: hear your experience. Obviously you've done this for so long,

544
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 3: You've had so many conversations around this. I found that

545
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: it's not something that people spot very early, or sometimes

546
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: their early signs of it even seems positive or it

547
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: seems that it can be attractive, Like you said, a

548
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,239
Speaker 3: lot of people are narcissistic, can be ambitious, they can

549
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: be successful, they could have achieved a lot of things

550
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 3: through that pain, that trauma. So walk us through now

551
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: if we're in that should I stay or should I go? Mode?

552
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 3: That's the name of doctor Romany's book as well, so

553
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,719
Speaker 3: as we're talking about it, feel free to order that book.

554
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: When you're in that position and you start to sense

555
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: there's some narcissism in the person you're with, A what

556
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: are you going to sense? What are the things that

557
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 3: people usually notice? Why don't we notice it early on?

558
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: Like?

559
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 3: What about narcissism is somewhat is it? Can it be attractive?

560
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: It's very attractive, And here's the ringer in these relationships.

561
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: People want the narcissistic people to be the cartoon villain, right.

562
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 2: They want it.

563
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: To be in your face bad, mean, lying, deceitful, betraying

564
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: all the time.

565
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: Right, Well, that would be easy. No one's going to

566
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 2: put up with that.

567
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: The challenge with these relationships, whether it's a parent, whether

568
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: it's a partner, colleague, friends, sibling, you name it, is

569
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: that there's often enough good days in there to keep

570
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: you hooked. All these qualities charm, charisma, confidence, ambition, being fun, loving,

571
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: being extroverted, wanting to have all kinds of interesting experiences.

572
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: Narcissistic people are very sensation seeking, they're novelty seeking. It

573
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: can be really fun. That's why we talk about the

574
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: love bombing that happens at the beginning of these relationships.

575
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: And what happens is when I've worked with people, especially

576
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: those who have been in longer term relationships, will say, lock,

577
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: it isn't always bad, it wasn't always bad, but the

578
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: bad is really bad. Like the bad leaves me wondering

579
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: if I'm any good, and I feel like a bad person,

580
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: and I feel like I'm the one with the problem,

581
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: and on and on and on. Right, But then there

582
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: are those good days and the person will often says, see,

583
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: I was the one who is wrong. I'm being too demanding.

584
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: I've got this silly notion of what a relationship supposed

585
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: to be, and I can set a clock on.

586
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: The fact that it's going to go back into the downward.

587
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: So I think that that's one thing I want everyone

588
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: listening to this to know is that people say, well,

589
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: maybe this person in my life isn't that antagonistic. Maybe

590
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: they're not that narcissistic because we have these good days.

591
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: Plan on the good days. It's like being in a relationship,

592
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: or it's like living someplace where the weather is always extreme.

593
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: It's either like eighty five degrees in sunny or like

594
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: the most horrific hurricane blizzard, and that weather alternates like

595
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: on an every few days basis sometimes, and so as

596
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: a result of that, it confuses people to no end.

597
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: It isn't always bad. There were good moments, There are

598
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: good memories, and that's what confuses people. So this idea

599
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: of recognizing someone. In my own podcast, Navigating Narcissism, we've

600
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: done now thirty episodes, right, thirty episodes, thirty conversations about narcissism,

601
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: and in every in many of these cases, what I've seen,

602
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: especially in the intimate relationships, Somewhere around one, two, three years,

603
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: thing were becoming clear. Although you see the red flags

604
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: as soon as like the first month, the piece is

605
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: turning into somebody's Like pixels, right, A couple of pixels

606
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: teach you nothing. Lots of pixels make a picture, and

607
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: it takes a couple of years for a lot of

608
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: folks to get enough pixels to say, Okay, there's no

609
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: not seeing this. But by then they may be so

610
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: deep into it that cognitive dissonance kicks in, and you

611
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: want it to work, so you tell yourself whatever story

612
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: you need to tell yourself so the relationship can sustain. Well,

613
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: we have enough good times. Maybe it's my fault, I'm

614
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: being too demanding. And you'll see this, especially if a

615
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: person is trying to find a relationship at a pressured

616
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: time of life. They want to have kids, they feel

617
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: pressure to get married, whatever it may be.

618
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: But even in a family person.

619
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: Will say I can't walk away from my parents, even

620
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: though every interaction the person has with them is wretched.

621
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: And my job is to help people find that middle

622
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: ground of having realistic expectations. But I do think that

623
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: when people red flags are always a story that can

624
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: be told retrospectively, like, okay, there was a red flag

625
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: on the first.

626
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: Day, there's a red flag in the first month. No, yeah,

627
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 2: everyone will.

628
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,959
Speaker 1: Say like, okay, all that being late or you know,

629
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: all that telling me that they told me not to

630
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: apply to that school because they cared about me and

631
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: didn't want me to feel like I was. You know,

632
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: they didn't want to watch me go through the school

633
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: telling me that I couldn't get in. But in fact,

634
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: what they were doing is holding them back on their dreams,

635
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: like the pixels turn into a picture, and I think

636
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: that that it does take time, and a lot of

637
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: people will feel embarrassing. How did it take me two

638
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: years to see this, to which I say two years

639
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: is fast.

640
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 2: Good for you.

641
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: And when the love bombing ends, and love bombing lasts

642
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: anywhere from six weeks to a year, I think that's

643
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: about the range. And so when the love bombing ends

644
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: and they do valuing starts, people are almost this on

645
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: this weird addictive treadmill of like how do I get

646
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: back to that? And what do I need to change

647
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: in myself? Never stopping to think, Okay, this person brought

648
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: their a game for about three months they've shifted.

649
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: I have not changed.

650
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: So if you can see it clearly, you can see

651
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: the patterns clearly, things like, you know, they'll get incredibly

652
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 1: sensitive to criticism. That's a very common pattern in narcissistic folks.

653
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: And so everything will be going well and a person's

654
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 1: feeling more comfortable and they might give them feedback. I

655
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: don't know what they're wearing or the restaurant they chose

656
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: or their job, and a rage that feels like a

657
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: tsunami will enter the relationship and the person will be like,

658
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: what the heck just happened? Those ego injuries can really

659
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: result in these volcanic kinds of you know, sorts of

660
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 1: shows of emotion. That's when people start getting confused and saying,

661
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: maybe I was harsh, maybe I shouldn't have said that.

662
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: And so what we see invariably is the survivors in

663
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 1: these relationships take it upon themselves to try to change

664
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 1: everything about the themselves, believing they can change the other person.

665
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: And if there's only one takeaway here, it's that narcissism,

666
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: like all maladaptive personality styles, is really resistant to change.

667
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: The more maladaptive the personality, the more rigid. It is

668
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: the more healthy and flexible the personality, the more give

669
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: and takes. So agreeable people are incredibly flexible.

670
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: So even if they.

671
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: Don't want to do something, they might think, like, I

672
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: love her, you know she wants to go and I'm

673
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: you know what, They've always been there for me, so

674
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: I'm going.

675
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: To go to the horror film festival.

676
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: Might cover my eyes, but then think that that's the

677
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: give and take of a relationship and won't be angry

678
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: about it. That's the flexibility. Narcissism is the opposite. It's

679
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 1: like it's solid as a brick.

680
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: Yeah wow. And I think that when people end up

681
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 3: in those scenarios, there's experiences we have this You raise

682
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: this point that we almost try and counteract bad memories

683
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: with good memories, Like that's how we like to make

684
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: sense if someone is well, if they do a bad thing,

685
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: how many good things did they do? Or if they

686
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 3: do a good thing, how many bad things do they do? Right?

687
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: If we don't like someone overall, will come up with

688
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: the list of mistakes they made. If we like someone,

689
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: will come up with the list of compliments they made.

690
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 3: What's a healthier way of making sense of someone? Because

691
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 3: I don't find good and bad to be that healthy.

692
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 3: As you said, it could mislead you.

693
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: I always say to people, you've got to be able

694
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: to be comfortable with this concept of multiple truths. Okay,

695
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: multiple things can be true at the same time. You

696
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: could have had a wonderful courtship. You may have great sex.

697
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: This person may regularly gaslight you. This person lies to you.

698
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: You really love how they cook spaghetti. They're wonderful with

699
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: your infant. They often raise their voice at you. You

700
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: see what I'm saying. All of these things are happening

701
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: at the same time. The hardest thing I believe a

702
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: human being can do is to sit with those multiple

703
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,240
Speaker 1: truths and not run away. It is the ultimate test

704
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: of mindfulness because we want cognitive dissonance. Our brains are wired.

705
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: They're not wired for inconsistency. They're wired for consistency. And

706
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,800
Speaker 1: when things are inconsistent, we feel very tense, we feel

707
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable, and the human species gears towards homeostasis.

708
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: I need to not feel tense.

709
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 1: The best way to not feel tense is figure out, Okay,

710
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: I want to stay in this relationship. So he's a

711
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: good father. What more could you want right now. You

712
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: can argue the flip side of that too, and a

713
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: person for some reason feels ready to leave a relationship,

714
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: they may say they may cherry pick all the few

715
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: bad things and forget how much you know that this

716
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: person's actually really well regulated and kind and compassionate and

717
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: all of that. I think part of the struggle becomes

718
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: what constitutes a healthy relationship in any culture Without that

719
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: agreed upon definition, I think that's half the battle. And

720
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: so when people say to me, what's a healthy relationship, I'm.

721
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: Like, oh, easy.

722
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: It's kind, it's compassionate, it's flexible, it is respectful, it

723
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: is cooperative, it's collaborative. There's there's you know, equitability, and

724
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: it may not it may be that there's very clear roles,

725
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: but there's a perceived sense of equitability in the relationship.

726
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: There's self awareness, and there's an investment in the growth

727
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: of your partner. That's a healthy relationship. And people they'll

728
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: look at narcissistic relationships that say, I don't have any

729
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: of those. Yeah, okay, But unfortunately culture will often dictate

730
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: what makes things healthy. And then they'll be like, well,

731
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: they have a good job, they make a lot of money,

732
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 1: we are of the same religion.

733
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 2: I like how they look.

734
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that stuff is I understand why someone would value it.

735
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 2: It's not the stuff of a healthy relationship.

736
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, those are the things we start convincing ourselves through

737
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: and coaching ourselves through and walking ourselves through. It gets

738
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 3: harder and harder and harder because we get so addicted,

739
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 3: especially going back to where you sing about love bombing,

740
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 3: Like being love bombed is really addictive and it's really

741
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: intoxicating because it's like, Wow, this person's really into me.

742
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 3: And if I could count the amount of friends I

743
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 3: have this year that have been love bomb like, it's insane,

744
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 3: like how common it is. And it's at the shorter

745
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: end too, it's at that six weeks mark or you know,

746
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: three months mark where people are showing their full self.

747
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 3: I guess is the right way of saying it. How

748
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 3: do you stop yourself from being love bombed? Like, how

749
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 3: do you avoid being love bombed? Or how do you

750
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 3: navigate being love bombed? Because I think that's the conversation,

751
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: Like we're not going to be able to stop being

752
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 3: love bombed, but you are going to be able to

753
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: slow things down. You are getting to be able to

754
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 3: rethink you are going to be able to. But we

755
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 3: just love being loved so much, and you know, it's

756
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 3: kind of like the confidence boost we never had, and

757
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 3: it's the influx of positive compliments we never had. So

758
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 3: how do we what do we do?

759
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: It's a tough one, Jay, you know. I mean, let's say,

760
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: if you put like a bunch of copcakes or sweets

761
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: in front of me, is starting to eat it right

762
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: knowing that? Okay, Rominy, you don't need to. You don't

763
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: need the sugar.

764
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 2: You know we're going to turn.

765
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 1: Then I say, you don't need the sugar. You know

766
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: that's not good for you. Then that's easy, I think

767
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: easier when it comes to food. I think that what

768
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: happens with love bombing might actually be more addictive than

769
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: drugs because it's often addressing a deficit many people believe

770
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: they've experienced in their lives that they weren't seen, they

771
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 1: weren't recognized, they weren't valued. A lot of people didn't

772
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 1: get that in the early part of their lives, so

773
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: that someone's coming along or in their dating life, they

774
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: didn't get it with other people. So when someone comes

775
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: along and is offering it, it's almost feels like an

776
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: offset to those other relationships where a person didn't feel

777
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 1: valued or seen or any of that. I think part

778
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: A number one is that you need to know what

779
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: it is, so when it's happening, you're more aware of

780
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: It's like it again, usually hurricane analogy.

781
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 2: It's like preparing for it.

782
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 1: So if a person says, oh, hurricanes just rain and wind,

783
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, maybe not, Like let's get those you know,

784
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: let's board up your windows, let's sand bag your house, evacuate, like,

785
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: it's not just a rain storm. So knowing what it

786
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: is means you're going to prepare yourself in a different way.

787
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: That's one thing.

788
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: The second thing is love bombing becomes a place for

789
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: you to test the waters. Okay, so I tell people

790
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: pull back on that throttle, let's come down in altitude,

791
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: let's fly this plane a little slower.

792
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: Now.

793
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: In most narcissistic relationships, if a person tries I'm not

794
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: saying end it, but tries to pull back, like can

795
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 1: we go a little slower, or you know what, we

796
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: don't need to go to that place, Let's just go

797
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 1: to this simple restaurant. Or I don't know about traveling yet,

798
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: like i'd like to get you, not to know you better.

799
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: You put those lines down and set those boundaries. In

800
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: the majority of cases, the narcissistic person is going to jump.

801
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: They're going to do things like doubt your commitment. I

802
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 1: guess you're not that into me, or oh yeah, okay,

803
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: I get it, you're not you're not vibing because what

804
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: you've done is you've taken away their game. Right now,

805
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: if they were really, really a good, solid person who

806
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: just happened to be super into dating you, then they'd say, oh,

807
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: you know what I was, I'm so interested in you.

808
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 2: Let me slow this, let me slow my role.

809
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: I think I've I let my enthusiasm, and they'll be

810
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: I let my enthusiasm get the best of me. They'll

811
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: be self aware of what they're they're doing and might say,

812
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: you know, I think that I just you're really wonderful

813
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: and but thank you, and they'll receive the feedback and

814
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: say and say, you know what, let's go to that

815
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: hole in the wall restaurant. That sounds great and it

816
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: won't be an ego injury and they won't view it

817
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: again because you're taking away their game. That's that's the

818
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: example of gaslighting, which by the way, today was designated

819
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: as the word of the year. Yes, Merriam Webster Dictionary

820
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: called gaslighting the word of the year, which to me,

821
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: let me tell you, I just literally started crying. I thought,

822
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: after fifteen years of talking about this stuff quietly, I

823
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: cannot believe that this is finally entering into the mainstream.

824
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 2: But people still use the word wrong.

825
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is when when you

826
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: simply say something like I'm really enjoying getting to know you,

827
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: but can we just step it back a bit, and

828
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: a person says, well, I guess you're not that interested

829
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: in me, then you're being gaslighted because that's actually not

830
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: your experience. You actually are quite committed and want to

831
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 1: slow it down to see what it's like. But that's

832
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: a great way to test the waters. That would be

833
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: like that would be me saying, can you take all

834
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: those cupcakes away? I'm not interested, and I'd still be like, really,

835
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 1: what one?

836
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: So it's that exactly. Yeah, now that you've said that,

837
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that that is incredible that it's the

838
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: word of the in the sense that at least we're

839
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: understanding it. It's sad that it's the word of the

840
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 3: air because it means more people are experiencing it. It's

841
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 3: like that, you know, but can you again properly clarify

842
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 3: aus what gaslighting is again so that we don't misuse it?

843
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: And absolutely, And when I saw that, I'm like, I'm

844
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 1: going to bring this up with Jake. Yeah, because when

845
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: it came up as the word of the year, gaslight,

846
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 1: a lot of people are confused by gaslighting right now.

847
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: The origin of the word is actually is only in

848
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: the last less than hundred years. It was a name

849
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: of a play that became a film, and you know,

850
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: it was literally about the psychological manipulation of a woman

851
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: by her husband and how she psychologically sort of falls apart.

852
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: Because that's happening fast forward. The only people who talked

853
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: about gaslighting were therapists. It was this therapist talk and

854
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: we talk about it, Oh, god, her husband's gaslighting ham

855
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 1: you know kind of thing, and my shrink would say

856
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: it to me, right and I'm like, oh, if you're

857
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 1: being gaslighted.

858
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: So it was shrink talk. Nobody else talked.

859
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: About it, and then those of us working in this space,

860
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: it was, you know, like that's the primary tool of

861
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: the narcissistic person. Because it's a tool of domination. So

862
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: the way gaslighting works is it's a denial of a

863
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: person's reality.

864
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 2: That's step one.

865
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: I never said that that never happened. You're what are

866
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: you saying? Like I don't even see what you're talking about? Right,

867
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: So you're like I didn't or this isn't happening. So

868
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: now you're already a little off balance because I'm very

869
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: authoritatively saying to you something didn't happen. But that's not

870
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: that's that by itself is not gaslighting.

871
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: Oh okay, no, you gotta go now.

872
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: The step two of gaslighting is then I tell you

873
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you.

874
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 2: You're so sensitive, like why do you see this everywhere?

875
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: Or like ooh god, you know paranoia much? I you

876
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: know what, I'm gonna get you the name of a shrink.

877
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: You need to talk to someone because you keep imagining

878
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: things that aren't happening. Okay, So imagine a person in

879
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: a relationship where there's infidelity and they're getting suspicious. They're

880
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: partners hours whatever it is messages and they say to

881
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,959
Speaker 1: their partner, what is this.

882
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: Thing at work?

883
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: You keep staying and you know you're traveling, like is

884
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 1: there anything going on that I should know about. No,

885
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: there's nothing going on. A Step one, we am not

886
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: gaslighted yet, though gaslighting is.

887
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: But you know what I'm sick of.

888
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: I'm sick of living with an unhinged, paranoid lunatic. That's

889
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: what I'm tired of. There's the gaslight. Now there's a

890
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: Step three is that it's not a one off, one time. Yes,

891
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,720
Speaker 1: that's a gaslighting episode, but the true gaslighting abuse happens

892
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:27,760
Speaker 1: over time, over and over and over, and it won't

893
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: just be about one issue. I never said that what

894
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: is wrong with you? Oh, I'm just getting so tired

895
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: of your paranoid You're so sensitive. And what happens then

896
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: is that other person being told repeatedly by someone they

897
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: do trust. Because gaslighting is predicated on trust, it's harder

898
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: for a stranger to gaslight you, partner, family member, healthcare provider, teacher,

899
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: people who have some power over someone. Politicians in gaslight,

900
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: entire societies. Gaslight right what everyone coming in on one

901
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: party line and denying reality and then telling the people

902
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: who don't believe that that there's something wrong with them,

903
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: and do it over and over and over again. You

904
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: break the other person's spirit. You leave them completely doubting themselves,

905
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: completely blaming themselves. And so what happens is when a

906
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: person's chronically gaslighted, you'll see things like no, no, you

907
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: know what, this is my fault. They start saying, they

908
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: start apologizing before they get in the door, I'm sorry,

909
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and I'll be like, what are you sorry for?

910
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: It's just they got.

911
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: So used to saying it, so they really get shattered

912
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: by this, where they literally lose a sense of up

913
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: and down night and day. They're just it's such a

914
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: cruel thing to do to a person. It is qualifies

915
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: as emotional abuse. So this idea of gas lighting great

916
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: that it's in the public consciousness, but it's.

917
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 2: Not just lying.

918
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: Everyone says doctor Rominy, what's the difference between lying and gaslighting?

919
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: Playing is a denial of evidence, right, So today we

920
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: had our time to get together and make it up.

921
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: You say, oh, okay, you're gonna be here at two o'clock,

922
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: and I'd say, that's not true.

923
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: You told me to get here at one o'clock. It

924
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: was one o'clock, one o'clock, one o'clock. I know it

925
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 2: was one o'clock.

926
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: And I insist on that then new builds from me

927
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: the email and say, Rominy, look it's two o'clock. And

928
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: then and then I and then I went with that.

929
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: Right then we're just clothed. The lie got lies get

930
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: shut down by evidence. Gas slighting is a lie, but

931
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: wrapped up in this invalidating bow.

932
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: And that I mean, when I hear that, it breaks

933
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 3: my heart because I know so many people who have

934
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 3: been on the end of that. And you see how

935
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 3: someone may even have started off with an anxious or

936
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 3: avoidant attachment style, and now that anxiety is through the roof,

937
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 3: or that self criticism is you know, the self doubt

938
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 3: is even greater. Now that person gone trust again, and

939
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 3: now the persons struggling with their value and their worth.

940
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 3: And I know this is a bigger question and I

941
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 3: do want to get into it, but that individual, what

942
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 3: could they have done differently to avoid going inward? Because

943
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 3: what I've found is that when someone is potentially probably

944
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 3: one of the other personality types, it's natural for them

945
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 3: to think that there's something that they need to change.

946
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 3: That's the natural default of the other personality types. It's like, well,

947
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 3: if something's not working out, maybe I should change because

948
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 3: then it could be better, right, take responsible or take

949
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 3: responsibility exactly and so, and I've seen that in myself

950
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 3: when even when someone would say the meanest thing about me,

951
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: even if I know it's not true to my core,

952
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: there's a part of me that will still reflect on

953
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 3: it because I'm like, what if maybe it's something I'm

954
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:53,439
Speaker 3: missing about myself? But how do you avoid letting it

955
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 3: affect you? Or are you saying there is no way

956
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 3: and it is going to affect you.

957
00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 2: I think that it's a mix of things.

958
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: In its interesting when people get savvy about gaslighting and

959
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: they know they're being gaslighted in real time. Now, the

960
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: one thing you can never, ever, ever do is tell

961
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: a gaslighter that you know that they're gaslighting you, because

962
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: then they're gonna double down. Yeah, okay, So when it's

963
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: happening in real time is and this is what's so hard,

964
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: because it becomes sort of a cart before the horse thing.

965
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: Most people haven't done the therapeutic work of who am I?

966
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: What am I about? What is my identity? How do

967
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: I stand as a person, what do I believe in?

968
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: What do I care about? Right? Very few people do

969
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 1: that work because then when you do that again, I

970
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: get this. I get this a lot in online spaces

971
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: because a lot of people out there who are very

972
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: pro narcissism apparently, and so when I come out, but

973
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: it's there a big organized community. Doctor Romney is a

974
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: terrible therapist and she's very unempathic.

975
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: That was one of last week's comments.

976
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: Okay, it has us impact Jay, because I don't know

977
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: this person, a stranger on the internet. But I have

978
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: to catch myself because I know there's parts of me

979
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: that have that neurotic structure where I believe that's plausible

980
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: just because that's just sort of how I've been wired.

981
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 3: That's what I'm right. Yeah.

982
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: The work then becomes I have to to literally talking

983
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: myself out loud, like Ramedy.

984
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 2: You are empathic, you're solid, you are a very good therapist.

985
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: You've seen really meaningful change in clients. Literally, I'm saying

986
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: this out loud. However, and this is the interesting rub.

987
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 1: This hurts you, even though this is from a stranger.

988
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: To give yourself a second. And that might be talk

989
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: to someone I care about who cares about me, to

990
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: see if they can uplift me. It might be do

991
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: something pleasurable, might be doing a brief workout. It might

992
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: mean whatever it means. You know that there's a moment

993
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: when I'm saying I need to show some compassion to

994
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: myself right now because this person has hit me someplace

995
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: that hurts. It becomes different. Call to arms at that point?

996
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? But the initial work is who

997
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: am I? And what am I about?

998
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 3: You know?

999
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: And I think that this is why journaling becomes so

1000
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: important because having these places you've written things down where

1001
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: you can look back and say, I really have comment

1002
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: things from the heart, and sure I've made mistakes like

1003
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: everyone does, but listen, this is a this is a

1004
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: high falutine. This is me having been in therapist therapy

1005
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: for fifty thousand years, you know, so that's also there's

1006
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: a place where that work's been done. And having gone

1007
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: through a life and had to learn from all of that,

1008
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 1: that was not something I was doing when I was

1009
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: twenty five years old. So a therapist, though, could, if

1010
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 1: a good therapist, would be a place where somebody could

1011
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: say you're being gaslighted. And I can't tell you how

1012
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: many times I've sat with a client and said, it

1013
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 1: sounds like they're gaslighting you're the client, big what? And

1014
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: then we'll walk through what is their reality, who are there,

1015
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: and then when that session is done, they'll often say,

1016
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: I feel like a big weight has been lifted off

1017
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 1: of me because I was literally doubting that very essence

1018
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: of who I am.

1019
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 2: And this is where.

1020
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: Therapy becomes so important, because it's sort of bringing a

1021
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: person back to doing that work of who they really are,

1022
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: what they really stand for, what they're about. So in

1023
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: real time, it's really about listening to it. I have

1024
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: to be honest with you. When I went in the

1025
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,720
Speaker 1: presence of someone who is gaslighting me and they're actually

1026
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 1: somebody who I do value, I tend to disengage a bit.

1027
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: You know, I'll just sort of let you know, I'll say,

1028
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: you know, I'll often give the okay, we're just seeing

1029
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 1: it in different ways, and I'll sort of soften and

1030
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: I won't get into it with them anymore.

1031
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: Well I don't.

1032
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: In fact, one of my techniques I give the clients

1033
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: I work with is don't go deep, don't defend, don't engage,

1034
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: don't explain, don't personalize. So I'll disengage a bit and realize, Okay,

1035
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: this is no longer a safe space, and that sort

1036
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: of feels self protective, and I think that that's almost

1037
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 1: like retraining an inner critic to say, can I also

1038
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 1: have an inner bodyguard, so that I could just have

1039
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 1: someone's like, hey, let's just pull you back a little bit. Yeah.

1040
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so interesting. I had an episode with a

1041
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 3: coaching client because obviously that that's my episode with a

1042
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 3: coaching client earlier this year, and I have a similar

1043
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 3: approach where I'm like, I know who I am, I

1044
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 3: know what I care about, I know with what intention

1045
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 3: I work towards, and ultimately, if that's an opinion someone

1046
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 3: has of me, they're entitled to that. But but I'm

1047
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 3: not going to go deep with it because I know

1048
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,080
Speaker 3: that's just not my truth and that's not where I am.

1049
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 3: But like you're saying, that takes a lot of self

1050
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:36,279
Speaker 3: work beforehand, and like you said, there's also still an

1051
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 3: openness to feedback. There's still an openness to being better.

1052
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 3: It's not like you think you're complete and you're perfect

1053
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 3: and your intentions perfect either. So I really like that

1054
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 3: you brought it back to that because I'm glad that

1055
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 3: we got back to that that at the end of

1056
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 3: the day, it's about who you are, your intention, the

1057
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 3: essence of who you're trying to be and that's ultimately

1058
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 3: all you have to go back to before.

1059
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 2: But it's hard.

1060
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 1: It's hard, Yeah, it's really really And for people who've

1061
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: been through lifelong narcissistic abuse, long term narcissistic abuse in

1062
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: a relationship, they'd be like, I have no idea who

1063
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 1: I am, so I do say that honestly, And the film,

1064
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 1: the original film Gaslight, portrays this as part of the storyline. Ultimately,

1065
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: ultimately she got ungaslighted if you will, because it's just

1066
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: one person. It only takes one person. And I always

1067
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: tell everyone you can be the person who turns the

1068
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: gaslight off for someone else. You may witness something and

1069
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 1: say that's you know, you might be at a meeting

1070
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: and someone might say that's not what they said, and

1071
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: so now you're ungaslighting them in real time. It might

1072
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: be you do it after the meeting, if that's safer. Film,

1073
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 1: it'll tell you what's happening in their relationship, and you

1074
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: don't doubt them, say oh, come on, it couldn't have

1075
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: been that bad. You don't say that, You're like, I

1076
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 1: am so sorry this is happening to you. This sounds

1077
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: absolutely terrible. Are you okay, because what you've done is

1078
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: you've given permission to this person who's just told you

1079
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 1: they're going through something terrible, minimizing it in many ways

1080
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: as a gaslighted approach.

1081
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 2: Right, it's not that bad.

1082
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: Because of our discomfort with someone else's discomfort. We can

1083
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 1: hold this space for other people and sort of turn

1084
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: that gaslight off for others, and you'd be amazed at

1085
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 1: how quickly that can turn the ship around.

1086
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, what are some of the realistic expectations for

1087
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 3: someone who says I think I can change them? I

1088
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 3: think I can be the person that helps this narcissistic

1089
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 3: person evolve, grow, change whatever word they use, Like, what

1090
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:38,360
Speaker 3: have been realistic storylines as to how those episodes and

1091
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 3: scenarios go.

1092
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: They don't I am? In my book?

1093
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 2: Don't you know who I am?

1094
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: There is a letter in that book and I had

1095
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: been speaking in some public forum. This woman heard me

1096
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: and in somebody was asking me a question in this forum,

1097
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: and she was in a relatively new marriage. They've been

1098
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: together a couple of years married. All the narcissistic top

1099
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 1: notes were there and her partner and she was asking

1100
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: the question, I don't know, can I stick this out

1101
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,959
Speaker 1: for another ten years. I'm just trying to figure this out.

1102
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 1: And then this woman just did it herself. She's one

1103
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: of the few who's decided to stay the next ten years,

1104
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: and she beautifully lays out, honey, this is what's going

1105
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: to happen if you stay for another ten years. Just basically,

1106
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: ten more years of gaslighting, ten more years of broken heart.

1107
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: I've worked with clients jay who weren't ready to go,

1108
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: and so they say they sometimes even drop out of therapy,

1109
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: and a few times I've had those clients call me

1110
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: back three, five, seven, eight years later, sometimes tearful and

1111
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: say nothing changed. And there's no sense of triumph in

1112
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: me for that. I recognize that they needed to see

1113
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: it the way they needed to see it. I don't

1114
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: get to dictate their rock bottom. I don't get to

1115
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 1: dictate when someone sees something. I do all the psycho

1116
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 1: education stuff, I do online education to see if I

1117
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: might be.

1118
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 2: Able to push the fast forward button.

1119
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: None that, but it's still you get there when you

1120
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 1: get there.

1121
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 2: But like there has been.

1122
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: I can say it probably counts ten instances of people

1123
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: ten of the thousands I've heard that where people have said,

1124
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: you know this person actually when I said I'm done,

1125
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: I'm over it. In fact, recently came up in one

1126
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 1: of the seminars in my healing program, and this person

1127
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: said I'm done, I'm out, and she moved into her

1128
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: own place, and her husband ended up going to twelve step.

1129
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 1: He ended up going to therapy. He had become more

1130
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: self aware, and she had found herself thriving living by herself.

1131
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 2: But she did love.

1132
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: Him, and he said, I want you to move back in,

1133
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: and she said, you know what, I'm still growing and

1134
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 1: finding myself. So the answer to that is no, we

1135
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: can continue having tentative conversations. And he didn't rage at her.

1136
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: That was one of the more hopeful stories I've heard

1137
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: in the last few years, and that's one in five years.

1138
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 1: And so you know that in this case that this

1139
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,320
Speaker 1: person became more well regulated. But her telling me that

1140
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: twelve step helped led me to realize that perhaps addiction

1141
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:12,959
Speaker 1: was probably the more powerful piece of that story. We'll

1142
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: sometimes see sort of competing kinds of patterns, but by

1143
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: and large I have not. I mean, it is the

1144
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: realistic expectation. Though to your point, the reason that book

1145
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: is called Should I Stay or Should I Go?

1146
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: Is about fifty percent of people stay in these relationships.

1147
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: That's what they do, and the reasons vary from finances

1148
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: to children, to religion, to culture to I still love

1149
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: this person too. I'm afraid whatever their reasons are, no one,

1150
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: not me, not you, not anyone gets to judge those reasons.

1151
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: What I believe in as a therapist is to meet

1152
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 1: them where they are at with that and say, okay,

1153
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: so that's I understand, I hear you. I don't get

1154
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: to sit here and tell you don't love this person.

1155
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: You love them, you love them. I'm here to tell

1156
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: you this is what you can realistically expect if you

1157
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: stay right. And I use this sort of metaphor of

1158
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,920
Speaker 1: going into the tiger's cage when I'm talking with survivors,

1159
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: which is there's a tiger, there's a cage. If it's

1160
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 1: really a tiger, and you go in that cage, you're

1161
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 1: going to get torn apart. If it's not a tiger,

1162
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: if it's a sweet little cat, you might have a

1163
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: nice little experience, but maybe the only way you and

1164
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm telling you, and even if I tell you it's

1165
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: a tiger, you may not believe me until you get

1166
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: in that cage. So I know that sometimes my clients

1167
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: say I have to let them go and let them

1168
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: go into the cage when they get torn apart. My

1169
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: job is to help bring them back together again. And

1170
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: so going into the tiger's cage is something sometimes people

1171
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: need to do. Is say, I just need to be

1172
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: sure that's what yeah, yeah, And I say, I understand

1173
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 1: that's part of your journey, and I'm going to support

1174
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 1: you in that. I'm here because I think some clients think, like, well, doctor.

1175
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 2: Roman, he's going to be a friend and if.

1176
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: I go, you know, and I'm like, as somebody who

1177
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: has gone back, who continues to maintain more than a

1178
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: few narcissistic relationships in my life. For reasons of culture,

1179
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: we're both South Asian. We know that there's a tremendous

1180
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: pressure in South Asian releast are actually in many cultures

1181
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: to sustain committed relationships and family. So I can't roll

1182
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: into those cultures and say, yeah, you got to go,

1183
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 1: that's not an option. But saying to people that you

1184
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 1: are not going to get a depth of emotional need

1185
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: met here, you are going to be invalidated. The work

1186
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 1: has to be in you not believing what they're saying

1187
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: they are not going to grow empathy, They're going to

1188
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: remain entitled. You need to develop other sources of support,

1189
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: and that might be through friends, through family, through spirituality. However, however,

1190
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,439
Speaker 1: you find those spaces where you feel seen and heard,

1191
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: like I said, whether through other human beings, the universe, God,

1192
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 1: whatever that looks like for you, that's your work. So

1193
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: when you realize that maybe the normal depth of a relationship,

1194
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: of a healthy relationship is this, you got this, yeah,

1195
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,000
Speaker 1: and you're going to have to be ready for that

1196
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 1: rollercoaster of the bad days the good days and not

1197
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: personalize it. But in the long term, Jay, staying in

1198
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 1: that toxic setting is going to take a toll on

1199
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: those people, even with all the realistic expectations, it takes

1200
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: a toll on a person.

1201
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 3: Well, I think you've just hit something there that that's

1202
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 3: the real growth that whether you decide to stay or

1203
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,919
Speaker 3: you decide to go the work of figuring out who

1204
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 3: you are and what's important to you, what your self

1205
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 3: worth is based on what your value is, that's going

1206
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 3: to happen either way, hopefully, well that's going to be

1207
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 3: a path that hopefully you'll have to take either way,

1208
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 3: and so whatever you're going to do, please take that path,

1209
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 3: because that's a path that stays with you forever lake.

1210
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 1: But to take that path quietly so you don't get

1211
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: to So the ultimate healing in the narcissistic relationship comes

1212
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 1: from a process called individuation.

1213
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 2: You become you out.

1214
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: It's imagine like a tree, so that's so shadowing that

1215
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: the plants under it can't grow because they're blocked from

1216
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 1: the sun. Our goal is to get you out of

1217
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 1: the shadow of their branches, to no longer have to

1218
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,920
Speaker 1: serve as a in psychological servitude to them. That you

1219
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 1: get to individuate. The problem is they don't want to

1220
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,160
Speaker 1: hear it or see it. Sort of psychologically alive in

1221
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: a narcissistic relationship, you have to skirt a very challenging

1222
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: line of being authentic in other spaces but not in

1223
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: that relationship because that's really hard because your authenticity will

1224
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: be shaved away. But if you make it a very

1225
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 1: conscious act that once again that inner bodyguard, I am

1226
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:41,919
Speaker 1: protecting myself right now.

1227
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 2: They don't get to see all of me because.

1228
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 1: They are not able to hold me safe, and I

1229
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 1: deserve that. So I'm going to put authentic me away

1230
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: for a minute. I'm just going to show up, not

1231
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 1: going to be cruel, not going to be unkind. I'm

1232
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: going to show up and do what I gotta do.

1233
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: You know, whether that's just sort of keep the trains

1234
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: running on time I work with clients honestly, Jay coming

1235
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,240
Speaker 1: up with a list of neutral conversation topics.

1236
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 2: Someone said it beautifully the other day.

1237
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 1: They said, sports, news, weather, You know, like that's pretty

1238
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 1: much all you can talk about in these relationships, right,

1239
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: and weather tends to be the safest.

1240
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,680
Speaker 2: Can you believe this rain? It's really cloudy.

1241
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 1: I wonder when it's gonna get warm again. I mean,

1242
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,439
Speaker 1: and people say, but that's not a relationship. I said,

1243
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: never was. So you learn that piece, But you allow

1244
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 1: your authenticity to bloom in safer situations. It's like a

1245
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: plant that can only bloom in the night, but not

1246
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 1: in the day. Right, The flowers gorgeous at night, but

1247
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: there's reasons that can't be bloomed in the day.

1248
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 2: You're still gonna bloom.

1249
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:45,520
Speaker 1: But you become a much more intentional and mindful person

1250
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: in your life that you really say yourself consciously, even

1251
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 1: like you might be pulled in front of a friend's

1252
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 1: house and say I can't bring all of me into this.

1253
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: You breathe in and you go, and you show up

1254
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: as sort of part of yourself, but not all of yourself.

1255
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: And you know what, you know who the real loser

1256
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: in that is that fool of a person who doesn't

1257
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 1: get to participate in the full glory, the full authentic

1258
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 1: glory of who you are.

1259
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 2: They lost, not you, and you protected yourself.

1260
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 3: And that part requite. The reason why I'm hearing from you,

1261
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 3: why that path after ten years in the letter, as

1262
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 3: you said, is even so tough, is because being a

1263
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 3: less version of yourselves takes so much strength and so

1264
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 3: much courage. It's not weakness. It takes so much energy

1265
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 3: to be a less version of yourself because someone doesn't

1266
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 3: allow you to be your full self.

1267
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 1: Correct, it's a restraint, but it's not. And I think

1268
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: for too many people in these relationships, they're this attenuated,

1269
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: less authentic version of themselves. They think that they're actually

1270
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: less than and I say, you're not less than. You

1271
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: are actually caring for yourself. You're learning that you can't

1272
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 1: bring that in and I have to be frank with you, Jay,

1273
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 1: when people really get this right, they're like, oh, okay,

1274
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,479
Speaker 1: I'm not doing this anymore, because what they were doing

1275
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: before was they really were acting in a way that

1276
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: they thought if I do it this way, they'll change

1277
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 1: if I do it that way.

1278
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:11,880
Speaker 2: I said, change is off the table.

1279
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 1: From here on forward, you're moving forward with change off

1280
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 1: the table. And I'll tell you that press the accelerator

1281
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 1: for many people, saying even if they didn't leave entirely

1282
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:23,920
Speaker 1: in intimate relationships, they often left. But in family relationships

1283
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: they'll say, I think I'm going to take a pass

1284
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 1: on Thanksgiving this year. I think I'm not I'm only

1285
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 1: going to go for one day of the family wedding. Like,

1286
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 1: they start setting some real boundaries and they learn to

1287
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 1: tolerate other people saying, well, isn't she up aty for

1288
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 1: not showing up? Like that, tolerance of people engaging this

1289
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: sort of enabling discourse of oh, you're not a team player,

1290
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 1: or now you're the one who's difficult to recognize that

1291
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 1: when people take these rather revolutionary steps of taking care

1292
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: of themselves that again, I do believe that self care

1293
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 1: and that restraint in these kinds of toxic relationships is

1294
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: literally an act of rebellion.

1295
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I love the example you gave that certain cultures,

1296
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 3: whether it's cultural, societal, financial pressures that stop us from

1297
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 3: walking away, what are some of the healthier boundaries people

1298
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:20,680
Speaker 3: can set up? So one boundary is I'm going to

1299
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 3: make time for myself to bloom, to be authentic in

1300
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 3: my own space. I'm going to find friends and community

1301
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 3: that I take strength from. Are there other healthy boundaries

1302
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 3: that people can set if they are currently staying in

1303
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,600
Speaker 3: this situation based on financial, societal, or family expectations or

1304
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 3: pressures not to.

1305
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 2: Engage in the same way.

1306
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would get sort of

1307
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 1: with the dog with a bone kind of a fight

1308
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: with them, right, it's just sort of letting it go.

1309
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 2: People will say I don't want to relent.

1310
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, what, then, don't relent with people you actually

1311
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 1: who are healthy and can go be very sort of deep,

1312
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 1: mindful circumspect. People don't get into that argument with them

1313
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: unless you just want to get into an argument for

1314
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 1: the sake of getting into an argument. Something else that

1315
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 1: people need to be prepared with in these sort of

1316
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: narcissistic relational situations is that there's a lot of baiting

1317
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: if you're not giving the arguments and being as gaslightable

1318
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: as you once were, that's not very satisfying for them.

1319
01:08:19,360 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 1: So they're going to find a way to go for

1320
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 1: the jugular, to make you bleed and make you fight back.

1321
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 1: And I say to people, you've got to know sort

1322
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 1: of your true north, as it were, and you might

1323
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: not take ninety percent of arguments, but if they go

1324
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: after some of those things you hold sacred, it could

1325
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 1: be your children, it could be a belief system you have,

1326
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: it could be other people you care about, whatever it is.

1327
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 1: If they go for that, then you're like, you know

1328
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: what I'm going in.

1329
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:51,639
Speaker 2: I'm Tiger's cage.

1330
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 1: I'm going in, I am going to I can't listen

1331
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 1: to this, I can't do this, but recognize it's not

1332
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,120
Speaker 1: going to change anything. And it's a question of which

1333
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 1: depletion is were worse at that point, holding yourself silent

1334
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,599
Speaker 1: at such a point or actually having the argument. And

1335
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 1: then I tell people, if you decide to go in

1336
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: and do that, you need to engage in some form

1337
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 1: of just coming back down, whatever that looks like for

1338
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:17,639
Speaker 1: you after these kinds of interactions, because many many people

1339
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 1: will say after they've had to spend time with a

1340
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:26,439
Speaker 1: very toxic, difficult, antagonistic, narcissistic, call it what you will, person,

1341
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 1: they'll feel really depleted. And if you keep having those

1342
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 1: episodes of depletion, you're going to get sick.

1343
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. I've also found that, I mean more from an

1344
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 3: experience point of view, that the more you're associating with

1345
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 3: that energy, the more likely you become or adopt certain

1346
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 3: behaviors too. I don't know if you've seen that, where

1347
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 3: certain people start adopting similar patterns, similar behaviors in order

1348
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 3: to be able to fight back and defend themselves as

1349
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,960
Speaker 3: a defense mechanism. Not saying that you've become narcissistic, but

1350
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 3: that you also respond by gas lighting or trying to

1351
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 3: you know, you're using that person's game against them because

1352
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:03,520
Speaker 3: that's the only play to survive, and you're doing it consciously.

1353
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 3: But eventually, I mean, it just becomes unconscious to some degree.

1354
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 2: And if you've seen I've seen that.

1355
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,960
Speaker 1: I've definitely seen it where people will say change you

1356
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,519
Speaker 1: know that. No, I think that people will say, I

1357
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:17,719
Speaker 1: don't know how often you'd be willing to steal food,

1358
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:19,400
Speaker 1: but you'd steal it if you were hungry.

1359
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 2: Doesn't make you a thief.

1360
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 1: You know, and that's the we would all do things

1361
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 1: we don't ordinarily do to survive. And I think that

1362
01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 1: some people until they understand this personality style doesn't change

1363
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: that you have to have these realistic expectations.

1364
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:36,800
Speaker 2: All of that.

1365
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: Until people get that, they do keep sort of getting

1366
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:42,840
Speaker 1: into the tango with them, which may mean, you know,

1367
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: shifts in terms of frustration just regulation their own empathy

1368
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: may wane. We know that there's something called compassion fatigue.

1369
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: Compassion fatigue is very contiguous to burn out, and people

1370
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 1: in these relationships will say, my empathy has gone to hell,

1371
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: Like people are telling me their problems. I'm like, I

1372
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:01,799
Speaker 1: don't have it anymore. And it's not that your empathy

1373
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 1: has gone away, but it's almost like it's been a

1374
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: one where you've just it's almost like a vessel where

1375
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,120
Speaker 1: the compassion's only going out and very little coming in.

1376
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, doctor Rominey, this has been incredible to talk to you.

1377
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:15,720
Speaker 3: And I just want to recommend the books because we

1378
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 3: only touch the tip of the iceberg the book. There's

1379
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 3: two books here that I highly recommend. One is called

1380
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:25,040
Speaker 3: Should I Stay or Should I Go. You're going to

1381
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:27,679
Speaker 3: hear about chapters about how did you get sucked in?

1382
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,639
Speaker 3: How do they make you feel? And of course answering

1383
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 3: the question should I say or should I go? If

1384
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 3: you are a friend or in a tough position in

1385
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 3: this kind of a relationship, then this book's going to

1386
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 3: help you make that decision. To me practical applicable advice.

1387
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 3: And the other book is called Don't You Know Who

1388
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 3: I Am? How to Stay Sane in an Era of

1389
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:53,200
Speaker 3: narcissism and titlement and incivility. This book is also available

1390
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,799
Speaker 3: right now, and so I highly recommend both these books.

1391
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,160
Speaker 3: Dr Romenie is anything that you didn't share that you

1392
01:11:58,200 --> 01:11:59,680
Speaker 3: really want to share from your heart, or something else

1393
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 3: on your mind, or something in the moment that you

1394
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 3: feel inspired or called upon to share with us today.

1395
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 1: I think that for me is the I'm tired of

1396
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 1: the loss of human potential I'm seeing in these relationships,

1397
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:17,200
Speaker 1: whether it's a five year relationship or a sixty year relationship.

1398
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 1: And while it is very hard for a person to

1399
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 1: actualize and give light to their best self while they're

1400
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 1: in these relationships, it's not impossible. And I have worked

1401
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:33,280
Speaker 1: with people who have been in long, long term relationships

1402
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:38,479
Speaker 1: like this, and yet I see this there empathy and

1403
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 1: compassion are deeply retained. They still do laugh deeply and

1404
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 1: they'll say, you know, and they'll say, listen, I can't

1405
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,599
Speaker 1: in my world, in my life and my culture, I.

1406
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:51,679
Speaker 2: Can't end this.

1407
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean there's not joy in my life.

1408
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:56,680
Speaker 1: And I think for me, what I want to do is,

1409
01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:01,520
Speaker 1: I think everyone's been misplacing their hope in the scissistic relationship.

1410
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:05,920
Speaker 1: The hope needs to be in oneself, and that the

1411
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 1: hope has to be that there is this this tremendous,

1412
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,600
Speaker 1: untold story in you and it is your story, not

1413
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 1: the story of them in your life, but you and yours.

1414
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:19,639
Speaker 1: And to give sort of flight to that narrative of you,

1415
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,479
Speaker 1: that to me is that's the work. That's the healing.

1416
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 1: And to let people say, what does this ever fully

1417
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 1: go away? And the answer is no, it doesn't. It

1418
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 1: is something that's there. And I'll say, survivors have a

1419
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:34,639
Speaker 1: unique beauty. Right, it's roomy, and it's the wound where

1420
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:36,760
Speaker 1: the you know, the wound is where the light enters

1421
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: you and all of that there. I always say, the

1422
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 1: survivors can see each other in the room, right, They're

1423
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:43,640
Speaker 1: the ones in the audience that are sort of like

1424
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: you know with I'm finally being heard and seeing kind

1425
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:50,639
Speaker 1: of thing, and they they've had a different journey. It's

1426
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:53,040
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's better or worse or more virtuous,

1427
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 1: but there is a there can be this sort of

1428
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:58,920
Speaker 1: depth you bring into your life after having been through it.

1429
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 1: It's a loss of inn yay, I have to say

1430
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 1: you will. You'll never sort of laugh and be in

1431
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 1: the same way, but you may sort of when the

1432
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:11,080
Speaker 1: laughter comes, it feels like a gift. And I think

1433
01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 1: that that many survivors say I'm ruined, not only not ruined,

1434
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:20,880
Speaker 1: there's a depth to your inner beauty that really comes out.

1435
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:22,720
Speaker 1: I'm not saying anyone should seek it out, by the

1436
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:26,760
Speaker 1: way it will find you. That's the problem with narcissism

1437
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 1: in our culture. And so, like I said, this is

1438
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 1: being done through storytelling. In my podcast, I try to

1439
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 1: teach about it, but above all else, to me, the

1440
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 1: work is helping people heal from this, because I don't

1441
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 1: believe anyone is defined by this. Ye.

1442
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 3: Now that's so powerful. Everyone's been listening and watching the

1443
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:47,120
Speaker 3: podcast is go navigating narcissism makes you go listen and

1444
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 3: subscribe YouTube channel as well. Dr Romney and of course

1445
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:54,120
Speaker 3: on Instagram, make sure you tag us across platforms, whether

1446
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 3: you're sharing clips on TikTok, whether you're sharing in your

1447
01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:00,599
Speaker 3: stories or your posts on Instagram, makes you tag Romney

1448
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 3: and I letting us know what stayed with you, what

1449
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 3: stuck with you, what you're going to share with a friend.

1450
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 3: Maybe there was a moment that you know someone in

1451
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 3: your life needs to hear. Make sure you pass this

1452
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 3: episode along to them. I hope this episode very clearly

1453
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:18,360
Speaker 3: defined and described for you narcissism, gaslighting, love bombing, really

1454
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 3: trying to break down what these terms actually are, how

1455
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 3: you can get an instinct for sensing them, knowing when

1456
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 3: they're there, and then the steps that you can take,

1457
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 3: which are laid out beautifully in the books and the

1458
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 3: content that we've recommended. Really hoping that you find the

1459
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 3: help and support that you need in order to navigate

1460
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 3: narcissism in your life in any form. And we're going

1461
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:39,679
Speaker 3: to be welcoming Dr Romedy back onto the podcast many,

1462
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 3: many times to have future conversations about this theme in

1463
01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 3: different areas of our lives as well. So Dr Romney,

1464
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 3: thank you so much for your time and energy. Honestly,

1465
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 3: your work is so needed and so powerful, and what

1466
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 3: I love from sitting down with you every time is

1467
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 3: not only is my mind stimulated, not only do I

1468
01:15:57,360 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 3: feel my intelligence has gained, I always feel moved by

1469
01:16:00,479 --> 01:16:02,439
Speaker 3: the words you share as well in my heart space,

1470
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 3: and I really appreciate that. So thank you, so thank

1471
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,200
Speaker 3: you so much for opening your heart and letting that

1472
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:07,680
Speaker 3: happen too,