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Speaker 1: Hey, Jorge, I'm wondering how you feel about the Midi Chlorians,

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Speaker 1: those little critters that give Jedi the ability to interact

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Speaker 1: with the Force.

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Speaker 2: You mean in Star Wars. I mostly try to ignore them.

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Speaker 2: They're a bit of an awkward retroactive continuity or redcon

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Speaker 2: of the original series.

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Speaker 1: Mm so you prefer the original approach where it's like

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Speaker 1: more democratic. Anybody can learn the force like yoga.

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Speaker 2: You mean, like Yoda or yoga.

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Speaker 1: I mean like Yoda doing.

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Speaker 2: Yoga, and like downward facing Jedi.

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Speaker 1: That conjured of a pretty awkward mental image.

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Speaker 2: How flexible is Yoda? We may never know.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a fan of the Midichlorians. I feel like

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Speaker 1: they're more scientific.

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Speaker 2: Oh are you a fan of jar Jar Binks too?

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Speaker 2: Because I think most people who are in that camp

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Speaker 2: are also in the jar Jar Binks camp. But you're

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Speaker 2: not tall made up right? It's not real science.

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Speaker 1: I know it's not real science, but it's science. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's a better microscopic explanation than just like hand waving

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Speaker 1: yoga magic.

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Speaker 2: I think the magic in Star Wars is literally handwaving,

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Speaker 2: like waving your hands in front of your face, going,

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Speaker 2: does this not the signs you're looking for.

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Speaker 1: I need the old physics mind trick instead.

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Speaker 2: That's right, redcon our real universe, not my childhood fantasy.

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Speaker 1: That's my job.

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Speaker 2: Hi'm Jorhem, a cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 2: Big Universe.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and that means my

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Speaker 1: job is to explain away all the apparent magic in

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Speaker 1: the universe.

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Speaker 2: You have to understand it first, though, don't you. Isn't

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Speaker 2: that step one? Or are you just making stuff up?

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Speaker 2: Are you? George Lucas seing it?

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Speaker 1: I think explaining it away is understanding it. Describing how

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Speaker 1: something works in terms of its like tiny little bits

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Speaker 1: and how they bump and dance together. That's basically explanation.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe I think you're maybe saying your job is

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Speaker 2: to look for explanations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes we actually find them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then explain it to other pe books like

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Speaker 2: we do in this podcast. So welcome to Daniel and

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Speaker 2: Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we try to take everything in the universe

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Speaker 1: that seems unexplainable, that seems magical, and figure out how

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Speaker 1: it comes to be. Drill down into its tiny little

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Speaker 1: bits and particles and explain how they bump and dance

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Speaker 1: and push on each other to weave themselves together into

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Speaker 1: our reality, to explain why yoga feels so good or

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Speaker 1: so bad.

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Speaker 2: That's right, because it is a marvelous universe out there,

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Speaker 2: with giant gaxies moving across at cosmos and stars exploding

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Speaker 2: and black holes sucking stuff in, and we're interested in

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Speaker 2: knowing what are some of the forces that bind it

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Speaker 2: all together, that flow through us and make it all

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Speaker 2: make sense.

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Speaker 1: And is it even possible to explain all of that craziness,

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Speaker 1: all the amazing things we experience in the universe, from

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Speaker 1: leaves swirling in the fall to black holes collapsing in

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Speaker 1: terms of tiny particles. Is it really possible to break

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Speaker 1: it all down and say it's just a bunch of

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Speaker 1: electrons passing particles back and forth.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you're minimizing electrons. You said, only a

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Speaker 2: bunch of electrons. But electrons are pretty pretty special, aren't they.

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Speaker 2: Each one is a tiny snowflake in the universe.

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Speaker 1: They're all actually identical right in a way snowflakes aren't

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Speaker 1: even But I think the job of particle physics is

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Speaker 1: literally to minimize the universe, to say, everything that's big

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Speaker 1: can be explained in terms of everything that's small.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's a job of physics to break things down.

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Speaker 2: And I guess throughout the history of humans and signs,

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Speaker 2: that's what you have been doing, right, first breaking things

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Speaker 2: down into types of elements, and then atoms and then

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Speaker 2: atomic particles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. We hope that breaking things down will give us explanations,

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Speaker 1: will reveal the true nature of the universe, and that

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Speaker 1: we could go the opposite direction also from the little

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Speaker 1: bits tooing and frowing, that we can weave those little

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Speaker 1: bits back together. All their tooing and frowing can be

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Speaker 1: sewn together to explain everything that happens, the way like

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Speaker 1: water droplets eventually could explain a hurricane, and the way

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Speaker 1: quantum particles somehow make up your classical body. We hope

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Speaker 1: that by drilling down we can expose the most fundamental

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Speaker 1: layer of the universe and then build back up to

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Speaker 1: explain everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so, little by little, scientists have come up

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Speaker 2: with a picture of the universe that can be broken

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Speaker 2: down into subatomic particles called electrons and quarks, and also

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Speaker 2: force particles. So the question is does it all make sense?

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Speaker 2: Does it all stick?

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Speaker 1: We have a mathematical description of how this all works,

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Speaker 1: which is incredibly precise. We can predict the outcomes of

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Speaker 1: experiments to ten or fifteen decimal places and mostly get

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Speaker 1: it right. But is it possible to get an intuitive

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Speaker 1: understanding to tell ourselves, like a little story about what's

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Speaker 1: happening down there in the quantum realm in a way

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Speaker 1: that gives us some insights, some understanding. Is it really

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Speaker 1: true that particles are zipping around tossing force particles back

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Speaker 1: and forth together or is something deeper happening?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're here to force out the truth. So

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Speaker 2: today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question how

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Speaker 2: do particles carry force? This is generic force, not the force, right.

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Speaker 1: This is science force, not science fiction force or magical force.

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Speaker 2: Who Science Force? I want to be part of that team.

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Speaker 2: Do you wear uniforms? Do you have like a secret base?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, they're snappier than the Space Force.

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Speaker 2: Also, yeah, well I'll join either one. To be honest,

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Speaker 2: anything that has a base and involves space or science

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Speaker 2: and laser guns.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think we settle this already. The Science

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Speaker 1: Force is going to elect you to be part of

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Speaker 1: the space Force and send you up to meet the aliens?

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Speaker 4: Wait?

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Speaker 2: Wait, when do we settle this? I didn't sign any

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Speaker 2: agreements here.

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, we had a meeting of the Science Force.

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Speaker 1: I guess you weren't there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess it depends on how much you're

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Speaker 2: paying me. How much are you paying me to do this? Daniel?

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Speaker 2: And or am I surviving relatives?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? You get paid on your return? Is that all right?

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Speaker 2: What do you mean I pay or I get paid?

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Speaker 1: You get paid if you survive.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like a terrible deal. Do you get paid

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Speaker 2: only if you discover something in physics Daniel? Or do

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Speaker 2: you get paid either way?

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Speaker 1: I'm getting paid and I never discovered anything?

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Speaker 2: Then the answerds yes, so far, so far right. There's

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Speaker 2: always an optimism.

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Speaker 1: That's right and over yet.

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Speaker 2: That's right, your careering over yet? But maybe have a

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Speaker 2: podcast long enough and who knows what you'll say, day

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Speaker 2: tuned folks. But anyways, it's an interesting question because we

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Speaker 2: tend to think of matter and the things around us

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Speaker 2: is being made out of particles. That kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But the idea that maybe the forces between those particles

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Speaker 2: the things that make you stand here on Earth or

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Speaker 2: that makes all your atoms stick together, or your hair

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Speaker 2: stent when they're theirs static electricity, those things could be

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Speaker 2: due to particles also is kind of confusing, right.

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Speaker 1: It is confusing, and yet it's something you hear a

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Speaker 1: lot in popular science without a sort of deeper explanation

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Speaker 1: for what the limits are of that description. You know,

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Speaker 1: everything in the end is an analogy, and those analogies

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Speaker 1: always break down at some point. So which parts of

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Speaker 1: that story are true and which parts of that story

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Speaker 1: are just a cartoon?

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Speaker 2: That's right. You don't want to force a force analogy

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Speaker 2: that's too deep, all right? Well, as usual, we were

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Speaker 2: wondering how many people out there I thought about the

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Speaker 2: idea of particles caring force and how they might do that.

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Speaker 1: So thanks to everybody who volunteers for this audience participation

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Speaker 1: segment of the podcast. We'd love if you participated. Since

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Speaker 1: you are part of the audience. Don't be shy write

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Speaker 1: to me two questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com

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Speaker 1: and in the future you'll hear your voice on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: So think about it for a second. How do you

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Speaker 2: think particles carry forth? Here's what I be glad to say.

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Speaker 4: I think technically, they carry force by exchanging particles. I know,

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Speaker 4: all the matter particles are called fermions, and they exchange

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Speaker 4: force by passing around their boson counterparts. For example, the

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Speaker 4: strong force I think passes around gluons, and so the

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Speaker 4: mental model that I have is fermians passing their bosons around,

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Speaker 4: sort of like playing catch. But I'm sure that's not

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Speaker 4: even close to an accurate representation, but it's kind of

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Speaker 4: what I've.

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Speaker 2: Thought of boson's carry force, because there's a way paint

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Speaker 2: qui fermions, just in the way light light steams up.

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Speaker 5: I think particles carry forces by interacting with fields, or

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Speaker 5: they might also carry a force by being like a

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Speaker 5: part of them, like shaking in that dimension. Sort of.

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Speaker 6: Particles carry force in their pockets, and when they want

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Speaker 6: to transmit a force, they reach into their pocket and

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Speaker 6: they pull out a boson and they lob it at

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Speaker 6: another particle to push it out of the way.

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Speaker 7: I assume particles carry force through velocity, mass, and spin,

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Speaker 7: and they transfer force as they translate one of those

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Speaker 7: upon interaction with something else.

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Speaker 6: I thought that the forces were transmitted when the force

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Speaker 6: particles were transferred from one particle to another, but Having

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Speaker 6: just listened to your podcast on energy, I imagine the

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Speaker 6: answer is probably just momentum.

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Speaker 2: All right, a lot of pretty science the answers. Are

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Speaker 2: you also recruiting them for the science force? Is there

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Speaker 2: a pledge to be in the science force?

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Speaker 1: Did you like the answer where the're pulling bosons out

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Speaker 1: of their pockets?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: What's it required? What kind of gadgets do you get?

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Speaker 1: You get a pocket full of bosons and you set free,

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Speaker 1: go go forth in science.

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Speaker 2: Nice. Nice, that sounds like a ninety song pocket full

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Speaker 2: of bosons. But anyways, interesting answers from our listeners here.

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Speaker 2: None of them mentioned Yoda doing yoga or Medei Chlorians disappointed. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: step it up, listeners. We have some interesting answers having

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Speaker 2: to do with velocity and mass and colored matter and

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Speaker 2: maybe extra dimensions. So I'll have to explore here. So

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Speaker 2: let's break it down, Daniel, what is the technical definition

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Speaker 2: of a force? Let's start with that.

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Speaker 1: So all of these explanations in the end are trying

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Speaker 1: to describe things we have experience with. That's what physics does, right,

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Speaker 1: give labels to things and then try to explain them.

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Speaker 1: And so a force is something we're familiar with. Right,

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Speaker 1: somebody pushes you, or you press down the accelerator in

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Speaker 1: your car. These are things that involve forces. Mathematically and

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Speaker 1: in physics, we think about a force as anything that

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Speaker 1: changes the momentum of an object. So a ball flying

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Speaker 1: through space at the same velocity, there's no force on

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Speaker 1: it. It just continues. If you want to change its velocity,

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Speaker 1: its direction, or its overall momentum in any way, you

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Speaker 1: have to apply a force.

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Speaker 2: Right. It also goes back to basically f equals ma

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Speaker 2: a right, like, if you have a mass, something with

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Speaker 2: mass and it's change it's velocity, then there must be

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Speaker 2: a force involved. And that's kind of maybe what you're

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Speaker 2: saying is the definition of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can actually even rewrite eth eqals ma as

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Speaker 1: the change in momentum, and that really helps you understand

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Speaker 1: the connection between forces and momentum because remember that in

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Speaker 1: our universe, momentum is conserved, So if something has a

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Speaker 1: certain momentum, it's just going to keep that momentum unless

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Speaker 1: you add in momentum from somewhere else. That's what a

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Speaker 1: force is. You have a particle flying through space, you

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Speaker 1: want to change its direction, change its momentum, you have

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Speaker 1: to bring in some external momentum, you have to have

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Speaker 1: another particle come by and give it a push or pull.

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Speaker 1: That's what the force is. It's the change of momentum

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Speaker 1: of an object.

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Speaker 2: But the objects ever really change mass, And if they

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Speaker 2: never do, then what's the point of saying momentum? Why

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Speaker 2: did you say ethicals?

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Speaker 1: When things are moving slowly, you can think of momentum

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Speaker 1: as just mass times velocity. But as things approach the

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Speaker 1: speed of light, when they get relativistic, there's another term

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Speaker 1: that creeps in there that changes the relationship between momentum

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Speaker 1: and velocity. They're no longer just linear. We whole episode

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Speaker 1: on the concept of like relativistic mass and whether that

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Speaker 1: makes any sense, and you remember, we decided that the

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Speaker 1: real concept is relativistic momentum. That momentum has a simple

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Speaker 1: relationship with velocity when you're moving slowly, but when you

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Speaker 1: move fast, it's much more complicated, And it's momentum that's

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Speaker 1: really the more fundamental concept. That's the thing that the

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Speaker 1: universe cares about, that's the thing the universe conserves. So

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Speaker 1: it's really sort of the more pure idea is momentum.

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Speaker 2: So when you say force is a change in momentum.

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Speaker 2: Are you also talking about its relativistic momentum?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. Relativistic momentum is the more general concept. You only

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Speaker 1: really need it near the speed of light. Mostly you

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Speaker 1: can use the old classical momentum, which is just mass

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Speaker 1: times velocity, and it gets things mostly right. But it

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Speaker 1: is the relativistic momentum that the universe conserves. And that's

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Speaker 1: one way we know that relativity is right is that

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Speaker 1: it's this relativistic momentum that the universe keeps track of.

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Speaker 2: I see all right, So then to change your momentum,

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Speaker 2: you can increase it or decrease it. So forces can

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Speaker 2: push and pull.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly. The intuitive description of a force is

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Speaker 1: a push or a pull. And what happens there is

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Speaker 1: you're changing your momentum. When you hit the brakes on

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Speaker 1: your car, you're changing your velocity. When you hit the accelerator,

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Speaker 1: you're changing your velocity. A change in your velocity is

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Speaker 1: an acceleration. It's a change in momentum, and there's always

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Speaker 1: a force involved there. Like the fastest way to slow

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Speaker 1: down is like hit a brick wall. There the wall

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Speaker 1: is applying a force on you and your car changing

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Speaker 1: your momentum.

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Speaker 2: And it's kind of a weird feature of the universe

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Speaker 2: that it has this conservation of momentum, right, or that

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Speaker 2: you need a force to change momentum. It could have

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Speaker 2: been that the universe was different, right. It could have

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Speaker 2: been that the universe maybe preferred mass time's acceleration to

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Speaker 2: be conserved.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 1: Maybe yes, and no, it's not true that we have

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Speaker 1: no idea why the universe conserves momentum. It comes from

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Speaker 1: a deeper symmetry. We know because of Nuther's law, which

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Speaker 1: tells us that every time the universe can serves something,

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Speaker 1: it's because of a symmetry of the universe. In this case,

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Speaker 1: the symmetry of the universe is a symmetry of space itself.

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Speaker 1: The laws of physics are the same at every point

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Speaker 1: in space, the momentum is conserved. That step there seems

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Speaker 1: like a big leap, but that's exactly the leap from

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Speaker 1: Nuther's law. I mean Nuther, this mathematics from about one

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Speaker 1: hundred years ago made this deep realization that there's a

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Speaker 1: connection between symmetry and conservation laws. So this law conservation

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Speaker 1: momentum comes from the fact that space is the same everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and so you're right, it doesn't have to be true

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Speaker 1: that space is the same everywhere in our universe. It

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Speaker 1: seems to be, and that's why we have conservation and momentum.

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Speaker 1: But there could be other universes where the laws of

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Speaker 1: physics change as you move through space and their momentum

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Speaker 1: would not be conserved.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you. You spend a minute agreeing with me.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, can we agree?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is the universe we live in, and it

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Speaker 2: seems to conserve momentum. And there's several ways that you

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Speaker 2: can do that, right, Several forces that will allow you

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Speaker 2: to change particle's momentum, maybe depending on what kind of

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Speaker 2: particle it is and what its properties are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so we can take the same concept of

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Speaker 1: a force that applies to your car and applied also

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Speaker 1: to particles. Particles have momentum, and if you want to

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Speaker 1: change your momentum, you have to apply a force. And

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Speaker 1: you're right, there's several ways to do that. We've observed

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Speaker 1: several ways, and again this is just descriptive. We've noticed

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Speaker 1: several things happened to particles, and we've categorized them as

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Speaker 1: much as we can. We've tried to like weave them

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Speaker 1: together into one concept, but haven't totally succeeded. We call

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Speaker 1: these things the fundamental forces. So there's like electricity and magnetism.

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Speaker 1: Charged particles will push or pull on each other. That's

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Speaker 1: definitely a force. Electrons will change each other's momentum. They'll

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Speaker 1: change their direction entirely, right, that's a change in momentum.

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Speaker 1: Even if your velocity is the same but your direction

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Speaker 1: is different, it's still a change in momentum.

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Speaker 2: M So that's maybe the most familiar force to people,

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Speaker 2: like your magnetism. That's basically what keeps our atoms together, right,

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Speaker 2: and our molecules stuck together with the different atoms in it. Right.

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Speaker 2: Without the electromagnetic force, it would be a big deal.

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Speaker 2: We would all fall apart, exactly. We all need electromagnetism.

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Speaker 2: So you truly acknowledge the electromagnetic force in like every

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Speaker 2: book or paper you write, because you totally rely on it.

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Speaker 2: That's right, every acceptance speech you give, every thank you

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Speaker 2: card you write.

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Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, you sent a holiday card to

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Speaker 1: the electromagnetic force this year.

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Speaker 2: Have put it on the holidays, and thanks again to

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Speaker 2: the electromagnetic force.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for all the photons but it's not the only

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Speaker 1: force that's out there. There's another force called the weak force,

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Speaker 1: which US physicists actually have managed to stitch together into

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Speaker 1: one force we call the electro week. But traditionally people

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Speaker 1: talk about the weak force as responsible for like radioactive

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Speaker 1: decay and interactions of neutrinos and stuff like that. So

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Speaker 1: it's sort of a shyer force.

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Speaker 2: What does it mean that it's related to radioactive decay?

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Speaker 2: Like when something decays radioactively, the weak force is there

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Speaker 2: to split things apart or to hold things together. What

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Speaker 2: is it doing there?

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Speaker 1: Lots of radioactive decay can be explained by one kind

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Speaker 1: of quark changing into another kind of quark, and it

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Speaker 1: does so using the weak force. So the weak force

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Speaker 1: can change, for example, like an upcork into a down

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Speaker 1: cork if you emit a w boson, and the w

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Speaker 1: boson is intimately connected to the weak force, as we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about more later. Without the weak force, that can't happen.

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Speaker 1: And so that's what we mean when we say the

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Speaker 1: weak force is responsible for radioactive decay. It like opens

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Speaker 1: up a channel for this to happen.

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Speaker 2: But is it pushing or pulling on anything?

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Speaker 1: That's a tricky question the weak force can push and

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Speaker 1: it can pull. The whole podcast episode inspired by a

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Speaker 1: question from an organic chemistry professor, but whether the weak

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Speaker 1: force can push and can pull? The answer is that

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Speaker 1: it can do both, but it's more complicated than the

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Speaker 1: electromagnetic force.

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Speaker 2: Well or right, what are some of the other forces

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Speaker 2: in nature?

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Speaker 1: So the last thing that's really a force is the

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Speaker 1: strong force. This is the thing that quarks feel, but

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Speaker 1: like electrons don't. Two electrons can pass near each other

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Speaker 1: and not push or pull on each other with the

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Speaker 1: strong force. But quarks or gluons, these things do feel

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Speaker 1: the strong force. They have another kind of charge, the

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Speaker 1: way an electron has an electric charge, which allows it

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Speaker 1: to feel electric fields and electromagnetic force, but neutrinos don't.

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Speaker 1: Quarks and gluons have a color charge, a strong force

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Speaker 1: charge lets them interact using the strong force in a

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Speaker 1: way that electrons just don't. And so that's the last force.

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Speaker 1: And this is the one that holds quarks together into

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Speaker 1: protons and neutrons, and the residual little forces bind those

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Speaker 1: protons and neutrons together into nuclei. So we also rely

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Speaker 1: on the strong force to build our world.

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Speaker 2: So they're all pretty necessary.

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Speaker 1: It seems they all have role to play exactly the

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Speaker 1: top billing to the extras in the back.

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Speaker 2: What about gravity? Is in gravity also a force.

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Speaker 1: So we sometimes think of gravity as a force, and

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Speaker 1: we talk about the force of gravity, and Newton describes

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Speaker 1: his force law or gravity. But now we know that

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Speaker 1: gravity isn't actually a force. Things move in a way

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Speaker 1: that makes it look like there's a force there, but

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Speaker 1: that's actually just because they are free falling in curved space.

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Speaker 1: There's no actual change in momentum there. And you can

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Speaker 1: tell the difference between gravity and these other forces because

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Speaker 1: gravity doesn't cause a change in momentum. You can't measure

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Speaker 1: acceleration due to gravity.

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Speaker 2: Wait, what do you mean If I hold a bowling

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Speaker 2: ball above you and I let it go, isn't it

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Speaker 2: going to gain some dangerous momentum for you there?

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Speaker 1: So if you're falling with the bowling ball and you

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Speaker 1: have like an accelerometer, you're not going to measure any

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Speaker 1: acceleration there. The bowling ball is in freefall, there are

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Speaker 1: no forces on it.

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Speaker 2: Right, But here it is going to measure a pretty

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Speaker 2: big acceleration, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Because in that scenario I'm actually doing the accelerating.

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Speaker 1: I'm accelerating towards the bowling ball. The bowling ball is

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Speaker 1: in freefall. The surface of the Earth or my chair

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Speaker 1: or whatever is accelerating me against the natural curvature of

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Speaker 1: space time towards the bowling ball. So that's actually my

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Speaker 1: acceleration due to the structure of the Earth or my

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Speaker 1: rocket ship or whatever that I'm measuring. There's no acceleration

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Speaker 1: there due to gravity.

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Speaker 2: Wait, so if I drop a bowling ball on you,

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Speaker 2: it's not my fault, it's you're saying it's your fault.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I basically rear ended you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, basically would that work in a court of law? Daniel,

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Speaker 2: can I bring you in as an expert physicist?

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Speaker 1: I definitely recommend you hire a particle physicist instead of

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Speaker 1: a lawyer next time you're in court. See how that

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Speaker 1: works out, well, your honor, I want to upend thousands

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Speaker 1: of years of legal tradition.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Let me bring out some charts here.

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Speaker 1: And the truth is that Einstein did say something really

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Speaker 1: interesting about this. The equivalence principle that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have heard about says that any experiment you do

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Speaker 1: is the same whether or not. You're in curved space

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Speaker 1: that you basically can't ever measure locally the curvature of space.

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Speaker 2: Wait, so I feel like I'm a little bit confused, Beau.

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Speaker 2: If I drop a bowling ball on you, and you're

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Speaker 2: saying the only bob doesn't accelerate to the gravity, You're

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Speaker 2: saying you're accelerating. Your head is accelerating due to the

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Speaker 2: you know, the forces that the ground is pushing up

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Speaker 2: on you with exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it looks to me like the bowling ball is

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Speaker 1: accelerating towards me, but I'm actually accelerating towards it.

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Speaker 2: I see.

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Speaker 1: An acceleration is not just relative, right, unlike velocity, and

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Speaker 1: velocity is equivalent to say, I'm moving in this speed

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Speaker 1: relative to you, and you're moving in this speed relative

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Speaker 1: to me, But acceleration is not relative. We can both

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Speaker 1: hold accelerometers and we can tell who's being accelerated.

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Speaker 2: Right. Does that mean that if I'm just sitting here

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Speaker 2: doing nothing, my momentum is changing.

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, Right now you are being accelerated.

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Speaker 2: So you're saying my momentum is changing, Yeah, absolutely, even

443
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:38,640
Speaker 2: though I'm just sitting here.

444
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,159
Speaker 1: Momentum is defined relative to your axis. So you can

445
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 1: always define an access in which you're at rest and

446
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: that doesn't change, and so your momentum is not changing,

447
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 1: but that frame of reference is accelerating. So from an

448
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 1: inertial reference frame, you are definitely accelerating, but you are

449
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 1: not in an inertial reference frame. You're an accelerating reference

450
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: frame on the surface of the Earth.

451
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 2: So my reference frame is like off into space or what.

452
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,640
Speaker 1: If you define your reference frame to be you, then

453
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 1: you have no momentum and you never will right by definition, hmm.

454
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 1: If you pick some reference frame of a distant observer

455
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: looking at the Earth, then yes, you are definitely accelerating.

456
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 1: You're accelerating against the curvature of space time from the Earth,

457
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 1: and you're accelerating against the curvature of space time from

458
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 1: the Sun.

459
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 2: I see this requires us to kind of think in

460
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 2: space time, not just space.

461
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:23,919
Speaker 1: I don't know that you need space time, but you

462
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,399
Speaker 1: do have to think about inertial reference frames, ones that

463
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,120
Speaker 1: are not accelerating and accelerating reference frames.

464
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,919
Speaker 2: So then how do you explain the fact that I

465
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:31,880
Speaker 2: don't feel like I'm moving?

466
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 1: Why don't you feel like you're moving? If you stand

467
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 1: on a scale, you measure something that tells you that

468
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,199
Speaker 1: there's a force being applied. You're just used to it.

469
00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I'm moving.

470
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: Motion is relative, right, You can just define a reference

471
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,719
Speaker 1: frame at yourself and then you're not moving, But acceleration

472
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 1: is not, and that's why you can measure it.

473
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 2: M I think maybe what you say is you said

474
00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 2: relativity is complex, and if you sort of think about

475
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 2: the curvature space or of space time, then technically even

476
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 2: if you're just sitting there, you're changing momentum.

477
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 1: If you want to dig deep into these questions relativity,

478
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: we had an episode recently about inertial versus gravitational mass

479
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 1: that laid it all out in detail. I think the

480
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: big picture here is that gravity is not a force.

481
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't apply in acceleration the way the other fundamental

482
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 1: forces do, at least not in our current understanding of gravity, right.

483
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 2: Right, Because some people think maybe gravity is a force, right,

484
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 2: and there might be gravit cons perhaps.

485
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 1: There might be in future theories of quantum gravity might

486
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 1: change our entire picture of how gravity works.

487
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 2: All right, Well, let's dig into the larger question we're

488
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 2: trying to answer here, which is how particles can carry

489
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 2: forces for the things that we do call forces for now,

490
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,199
Speaker 2: I guess, And so let's dig into that. How to

491
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: force particles work? And is that really the picture of

492
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 2: how the universe actually is? So let's dig into that.

493
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: But first let's take a quick break. All right, we're

494
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 2: talking about Yoda doing yoga. Now do you think Yoda

495
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 2: does hot yoga or some other kind of yoga?

496
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 1: I think Yoda's pretty hot already. I don't think he

497
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,159
Speaker 1: has to do any yoga.

498
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, you're into the ears and the wrinkles.

499
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's also baby Yoda, right for those

500
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: of you who are interested in the smoother skin.

501
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, he does like cute yoga, adorable adorbs yoga. Well,

502
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: it's hard to keep track of yoga and yoga at

503
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,439
Speaker 2: the same time. Now, can Yoda drink yogurt doing yoga?

504
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: You got me?

505
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yo got me? All right, Well, we're talking about

506
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 2: how particles can carry force? Do they carry force? What

507
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: does it mean for a particle to carry force? Because

508
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 2: I feel like we're used to forces being just some

509
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: sort of invisible thing in the universe. It makes us

510
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 2: want to go towards something, we're away from something, But

511
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 2: I feel like you're saying. Physicists have this view where

512
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 2: a force, when something's pulling or pushing you, it's actually

513
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 2: some sort of exchange of particles.

514
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, this microscopic picture is compelling because it helps connect

515
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,439
Speaker 1: with our macroscopic understanding, our like intuitive experience of what

516
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: a force is, and that's basically touching. You know, when

517
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: the brick wall slows your car down, it does so

518
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: because you hit the brick wall. Or when you lap

519
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: that baseball into a home run, you do so because

520
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: the baseball hit the bat. Right, And we have this

521
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 1: sense that in order to change something's momentum, you got

522
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: to touch it, that it comes from contact, from like

523
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: literally pushing on something or pulling on something to apply

524
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: that force.

525
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: Well, not necessarily like a magnet, Like I think people

526
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: are familiar with a magnet kind of pushing pulling things

527
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:20,479
Speaker 2: without actually touching it.

528
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great example. I think that's probably why

529
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: magnets feel so spooky and weird to a lot of people,

530
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: because it is action at a distance. Right, it's things

531
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: pushing and pulling out each other without touching.

532
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 2: Or Oh well, I don't want to get into this again,

533
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: but you know, reused to gravity making things move towards

534
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,959
Speaker 2: each other without any kind of contact.

535
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: Also, yeah, there, what's happening is you're interacting with curved.

536
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,719
Speaker 2: Space, all right, So then what do you mean by

537
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: this macroscopic view?

538
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: Just basically that things feel like they're local. You know,

539
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: if you want to push on something, you got to

540
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: touch it. And often when we're telling stories about what's

541
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,120
Speaker 1: happening on the microscopic scale, when we're trying to tell

542
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: ourselves a story about the particles, we rely on our

543
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: intuition from the macroscop it from like the big scale stuff.

544
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: So then the question is, when particles are pushing on

545
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,120
Speaker 1: each other, are they coming into contact in some way?

546
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: Is this interaction like a local thing? And that's where

547
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: the story of two particles exchanging some particle helps us

548
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: sort of fill in that gap. It tells us a

549
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: local story. Now, like one particle is flying along and

550
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: it throws a particle, pulling it out of its boson pocket.

551
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: Add another particle which catches it. In that story, everything

552
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: is always local.

553
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: M Yeah, I'm all about eating local and theorizing locally.

554
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 2: But maybe let's paint a picture, more concrete picture for

555
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: folks Let's say you have two electrons a meter part

556
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 2: and according to what we know, they feel that electromagnetic

557
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 2: force and they have the same charge. So they're repelling

558
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 2: each other, meaning if you just leave it for a while,

559
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: they're going to move away from each other. Yep, okay,

560
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 2: So then how is that force being transmitted if they're

561
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 2: not touching each other.

562
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's a lot of different ways to think

563
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: about it. One story, which I'm not a big fan of,

564
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: but is a sort of common story you hear, is

565
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: that they do it by exchanging a particle. That one

566
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: electron transmits momentum to the other electron basically by shooting

567
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: a photon at it. Because electrons can emit photons and

568
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: they can also absorb photons, it's like an interaction that's

569
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: allowed in the universe. So the story is like, electron

570
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: one shoots off a photon and in doing so, it

571
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: recoils against that photon. Right, maybe it was going straight,

572
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: now it's going left, shoots that photon off to the right.

573
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: The other electron, which was going straight, absorbs that photon

574
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 1: which was going right, and now it's going right. And

575
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: so it's sort of like two cars driving in parallel,

576
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: and one of them throws a ball at the other one,

577
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: and some momentum gets carried along with that ball.

578
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: Or like if I toss a bowling ball at you,

579
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: you know, when I toss it at you, I'm going

580
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 2: to move back a little bit because it takes some

581
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 2: effort to toss it your way, and then when you

582
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 2: catch it, you're going to recoil back also a little bit,

583
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 2: because the ball had some sort of momentum to it

584
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 2: and it pushes you back.

585
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly the same way you feel a literal recoil

586
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: when you shoot a gun, and then the target also

587
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: feels that momentum transfer.

588
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I feel like this view is something that you

589
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 2: would get it if you were already a little bit

590
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: familiar with science, right, like if you're take in a

591
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 2: maybe a college little physics course. I don't know, maybe

592
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: they teach it also in high school. But maybe for

593
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: the everyday person, this might be a new story that

594
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: they had never heard before, right, Like, maybe to then

595
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 2: average person, they're just thinking, well, those two electrons, one

596
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: of them is exerting a force on the others through

597
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: the magic of magnetism.

598
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the question is, how do you actually

599
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: explain that. How do you come up with like a

600
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: coherent theory that says what's really happening? And one way

601
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: to do that is to say, oh, these forces are

602
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: actually being carried by particles, right, because particles are things

603
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: we know in the universe can carry momentum, and so

604
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: if you want to push on something or pull on something,

605
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: you've got to use particles to carry that momentum. So

606
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: this is just like a way to try to explain

607
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: these forces that we see. Maybe what's happening microscopically is

608
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: that particles are being exchanged the same way you might

609
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: wonder like, well, what's everything made out of around me?

610
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: And you drill in on the tiny details and you discover, oh,

611
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: the surface of my table is not smooth. It's actually

612
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of particles. I just don't see them because

613
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: they're so tiny. So maybe the forces between two and

614
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: the forces between two electrically charged objects are actually particles

615
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: being transmitted between them. That's sort of how the story goes.

616
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: Right, Like if people see me and you moving away

617
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: from each other, they might think, oh, there's some sort

618
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: of invisible magical force, but no, really, actually it's because

619
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 2: Orhea tossed a bowling ball to Daniel.

620
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, do you have invisible bowling balls? By the way,

621
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: that sounds pretty cool.

622
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: Well, no, it doesn't have to be invisible. It could

623
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: just be a black bowlling ball at night. But I

624
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: think what you're trying to get at is like, this

625
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: is a view that's maybe popular out there if you

626
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: consume a lot of science and physics, but maybe this

627
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: view doesn't quite work. So does it work or not?

628
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: It definitely doesn't work for me, and I get the

629
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: sense that it doesn't work for a lot of people

630
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: out there because they get a lot of questions about it.

631
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: People absorb this idea and then they do what we're

632
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: always telling them to do on this podcast, which is well,

633
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: think about whether that makes sense. Does it explain other

634
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: things you see? Can you understand it in other circumstances,

635
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: does it click together with the other parts of your understanding.

636
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: And there's a bunch of pretty typical questions that this

637
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: picture raises and can't really answer. For example, For example,

638
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: we can tell a nice story about electrons repelling each

639
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: other by tossing photons back and forth, but how do

640
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: things attract each other if an electron and a positron.

641
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: Electromagnetism says they should be pulled together. How does an

642
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: electron or a positron throw a ball at the other

643
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: one and pull it towards itself. It have to be

644
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: like a ball with negative momentum somehow.

645
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was about to say that.

646
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: Why not, because if it's negative momentum, it's going the

647
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: other direction, right?

648
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: Is that a requirement? Can I just come up with

649
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: a magical bowling ball it has negative momentum.

650
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: Having negative momentum really makes no sense. It's sort of

651
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: like having a negative mass or negative length, right. It

652
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: really just means momentum in the other direction. So if

653
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: you're going to throw a ball to the right with

654
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: negative momentum, you're really throwing a ball to the.

655
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 2: Left right, which would push me towards the you right,

656
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: And so it would make sense.

657
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: But that's not an exchange of particles. Right. Maybe the

658
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: electron throws off a ball in one direction, the positron

659
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:53,959
Speaker 1: throws off the ball in the other direction. They move

660
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,719
Speaker 1: towards each other. But now you also have these photons, right,

661
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: and we don't see those photons when electrons and positrons

662
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: are try and then there's no exchange there, the electron

663
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: and positron not actually exchanging particles there.

664
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like you know, I'm new to this,

665
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: so to me, it could all be magical. Daniel, lets

666
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: you make stuff up. I'm relying on YouTube. Tell me, like, no,

667
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: that's a fundamental law of the universe that you're breaking.

668
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 2: So like, let's you have a magical bowling ball with

669
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: native momentum and you're you're standing in front of me,

670
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: so to toss it to you, I actually have to

671
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 2: push it back behind me, and then the ball would

672
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: go towards you, and then when you catch it, it has

673
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 2: negative momentum, which would actually pull you towards me. When

674
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: am I breaking there?

675
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: Okay, well then I'll just tell you that that's not allowed.

676
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: You can't have particles with negative momentum. It just doesn't

677
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: make any sense.

678
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: Hmmm, it says to you. But let's move on.

679
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: You just have to me to tell you when you're

680
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: breaking the rules, you breaking the rules. But there's also

681
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: other parts of the story that don't really make sense,

682
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: like how does the electron know the positron is there?

683
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: Has it no to admit a photon in one direction

684
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: to attract the positron.

685
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: M Yeah, That's one thing I've always wondered about this

686
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: picture is like, does that mean that electrons are just

687
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: throwing a photons in all their all the time, and

688
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: then it just happens to interact with another elect what

689
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: happens to catch it? Then they're going to repel each other?

690
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly is that what you mean?

691
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: Like that doesn't make sense.

692
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: That doesn't make sense. And then you would see those photons, right,

693
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: And if you stick your head between two particles that

694
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: are supposedly exchanging photons, why can't you see them? When

695
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: magnets are floating above each other? Why can't you see

696
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: flashes of light there? So there's all sorts of questions

697
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: that are raised by this particle exchange model that don't

698
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: really have good answers.

699
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so this view doesn't seem to make sense. Where

700
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: did it come from? Who came up with this? And

701
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: then didn't they think of these things when they came

702
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: up with it.

703
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: They didn't have a cartoonist keeping them in check. That's

704
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: really the problem.

705
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really the problem. They're missing their cartoonists in

706
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: their science force.

707
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Every physicists should have adult supervision in the

708
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: form of a cartoonist. That's what we're learning today.

709
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 2: But then who supervises the cartoonist and we're off the rails?

710
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: Yoda, I think, yoda. But yeah, where does this come from?

711
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: It comes from You won't be surprised to learn the

712
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: unfortunate naming of another idea. So what's really happening here

713
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: is not the There are literal photons being exchanged between

714
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: electrons or electrons and positrons. But there's something else happening.

715
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: There's an interaction that we describe using the phrase virtual

716
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: particles and virtual particles because it has the word particle

717
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: in it sounds like maybe it's a kind of particle,

718
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: but really they're not particles at all.

719
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 2: Which you're saying, like the first person who came up

720
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: with this idea really meant virtual particles. But then at

721
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: some point people stop using the word virtual.

722
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly when it transitions over into popular science, people

723
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: are like, you know, it's kind of like they're throwing

724
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 1: photons back and forth. They're virtual particles, but you can

725
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: think of them as particles, And that's exactly where it

726
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: breaks down. If you think of them as particles, they're

727
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: not really because they don't do all these other things

728
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: you would expect particles to do.

729
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: All right, well, let's dig into what is actually going

730
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: on virtually and for reals in this universe and see

731
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: if we can make sense of this picture of what

732
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: a force is. So tostig into that. But first let's

733
00:31:52,760 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: take another quick break. All right, we're asking the question

734
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: how do particles carry force? And there's a view that

735
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: maybe they exchange force particles. But Daniel, you're saying that

736
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: actually they're not really exchanging particles. They're exchanging virtual particles,

737
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: which is kind of like bitcoin.

738
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: It's nothing. Well, I mean if you say bitcoin is

739
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: nothing like money, then yes, virtual particles are like bitcoin.

740
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. They're not real. They're just like

741
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: a concept.

742
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you're going to bring all the crypto bros

743
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: down on us, dude.

744
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: Bring it on. Yeah, maybe they like to fund us

745
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: in bitcoin or dorsche coin.

746
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: Well, we can only pay virtual bills with virtual dollars,

747
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: so I'm not sure how helpful that is.

748
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: I feel like I have a virtual job anyways. But anyway,

749
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: so explain it to us. What's the difference between a

750
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: particle and a virtual particle, and how to virtual particles

751
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: create forces.

752
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: So what is a particle anyway? A particle is actually

753
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: a ripple in a field, like what is a real photon.

754
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: A photon is a ripple in the electronnetic field. The

755
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: whole field fills the universe, and a photon is a

756
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: very regular disturbance in that field. It's a very particular,

757
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: very special kind of disturbance that's sort of self sustaining.

758
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: Like you point your flashlight up at Alpha Centauri. Those

759
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: photons can go across light years and make it to

760
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: Alpha Centauri. They don't get tired, they don't run out

761
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: of steam. All that energy is compact in this perfect way.

762
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: It's slashing through the electromagnetic fields in this very special

763
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: particular way that lets it propagate through the universe. That's

764
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: what a particle is, So like a very special kind

765
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: of disturbance in the field that satisfies a bunch of

766
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: equations for how those field works.

767
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: Okay, it's a particle, not like a real object. It's

768
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: a little ripple, special ripple in the giant cosmic universe

769
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: spanding field.

770
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Now, a virtual particle is also a disturbance

771
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: in that field, but doesn't have any of those same properties.

772
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: Virtual particles are like basically everything else that field can do.

773
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: If that field is disturbed by the presence of some

774
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: other particle, then the field will slasher and oscillate a

775
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: little bit, and then that'll die out, and that we

776
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: can describe as virtual particles if you like, or you

777
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: can just think about it as oscillations in the field.

778
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: But virtual particles are basically a way of thinking about

779
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: what else fields can do other than having particles in them.

780
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: Now is the difference that that one is sustainable or

781
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 2: sustained and the other one kind of fades away like

782
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 2: an electron. It's special in the electron field because it's

783
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: there and it doesn't go away.

784
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. All these fields have equations to describe how

785
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: they wiggle. The fields are always wiggling. They have kinetic energy,

786
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: which means they're moving. They have potential energy, which means

787
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: they have energy of their configuration. It's sort of like

788
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: a kid on a swing. Right, they're swinging back and forth.

789
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: And for a kid on a swing, you give them

790
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: just the right push, they can swing really nicely. Right,

791
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: if you push them at the right frequency, they can

792
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: swing in a really nice regular way. But there's also

793
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,720
Speaker 1: other crazy things that that swing can do that aren't

794
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: so nice and self sustaining. Like you give that kid

795
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: random pushes at random times, it's going to get a

796
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: very chaotic sort of oscillation. So if you wiggle a

797
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: field in just the the right way, you can set

798
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: up these self sustaining perturbations that will move through space.

799
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: If you don't do it in just the right way,

800
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: then they sort of peeter out and the energy dissipates

801
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: instead of like moving in a little compact blob.

802
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 2: And so virtual particle is any wiggle of the field

803
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: that is not self sustaining, which is not special like

804
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 2: the wiggle that is an electron exactly.

805
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: So an electron is a special wiggle, and you can

806
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: see it, you can interact with it, same with a photon.

807
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: A virtual particle is any other sort of disturbance in

808
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: the field that fades away really quickly. And there's sort

809
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,359
Speaker 1: of an argument in particle physics about what's the best

810
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: way to describe them. Some people think, look, let's just

811
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 1: talk about the fields. Everything is a field. Particles are

812
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: actually wiggles in fields when they interact with each other.

813
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: That's just fields interacting other people like this virtual particle story.

814
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: They say, no, particles are the basic thing, and let's

815
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: talk about how they interact in terms of virtual particles.

816
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: So in some sense, virtual particles are just the story

817
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: we tell ourselves to describe some things that fields can do.

818
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: But fields are really the more fundamental element of the universe,

819
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: according to lots of physicists.

820
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so then it has to if it feels. But

821
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: then I guess what do you call these particles virtual?

822
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: They seem as real as the other kinds of particles,

823
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: like the electron.

824
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: We call them virtual for a few reasons. Number one

825
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: is they don't obey the rules that particles obey. These

826
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: real particles. They have like the same mass, right, so

827
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: a real electron always has the same mass, and real

828
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: photons always have zero mass. These other wiggles in the field,

829
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: you can try to describe them in terms of a

830
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 1: particle like story, but it breaks down because they don't

831
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: follow the same rules. And so like, what is the

832
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 1: mass of this virtual photon? Well, if you try to

833
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 1: calculate a mass, you end up with weird numbers. Sometimes

834
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: they have really huge mass, sometimes it's even negative. It's

835
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 1: because it doesn't really apply. You're trying to describe a

836
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: bowling ball as a car, and you're asking, like, you know,

837
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,720
Speaker 1: what's it like to drive? Well, it's not really anything

838
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,959
Speaker 1: like to drive a bowling ball.

839
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: Oh, how do you know. I'm just trying to ask

840
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 2: the tough questions here today, Daniel.

841
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: No, these are great questions. I love that you can't

842
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,959
Speaker 1: be flat footed with questions like what is it really

843
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: like to drive a bowling ball?

844
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 2: I mean, for making blanket statements here about the nature

845
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: of bowling balls, we need to back it up with

846
00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 2: real science.

847
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: The point is that we have these weird disturbances in

848
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: the field that we can describe mathematically, but they don't

849
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: have the same behavior as normal particles, and so we

850
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: can't interpret them in the same way.

851
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so they're weird wiggles in the field. They're not

852
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: as as special as the particles. You call them virtual particles. Now,

853
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: how do they actually the transmit a force?

854
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: All these fields contain energy, right, An electron is a

855
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: little pulse in the field, still vibration of the fields.

856
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: It's an excited state of the field. It has energy.

857
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: So in this field picture, how do two electrons push

858
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 1: on each other? They do so through the electromagnetic field.

859
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 2: So we're talking about multiple fields now, right. So there's

860
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: an electron field and then there's a photon field, which

861
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: is the electromagnetic force field. Yes, and you're saying, like,

862
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 2: the two electrons are in the same field, the electron field.

863
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: They're sharing the same field, but to talk to each

864
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 2: other they have to go through another field.

865
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. The field doesn't interact with itself. Right.

866
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,320
Speaker 1: You have these two fields that feel space, the electromagnetic

867
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: field and the electron field. These are two separate fields, right.

868
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: For one of them, the excited state of that field

869
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: is an electron. For the other one, for the electromagnetic field,

870
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: the excited state of it is a photon.

871
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: Right now, why can't they interact within the same field,

872
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 2: Like if I have the ocean like a way will

873
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 2: interact with another wave.

874
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: Some fields will do that, like the strong force. Gluons

875
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: can interact directly with themselves, but photons can't interact with photons,

876
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: and electrons can't interact with other electrons.

877
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: It's just a weird happenstance of the universe that the

878
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 2: electron field can't do that.

879
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: That's right. Some fields are allowed to interact directly with themselves.

880
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 1: But the electron field doesn't do that, and you might

881
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: ask why, and it's just description, this is what we

882
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:34,919
Speaker 1: see in the field.

883
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: Do Okay, So they talked through the photon field, and

884
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: so what's going on. Where are the virtual particles in

885
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,240
Speaker 2: the photon field or the electron field.

886
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: They're in the photon field, So these are virtual photons,

887
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: and again they're not real particles. They're like weird disturbances

888
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: in the field. So electron number one causes a disturbance

889
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: in the photon field, and it does that all the time,

890
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: like electron can't exist without disturbing the photon field. It's

891
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: doing it all the time. It's constantly interacting with the

892
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: photon field, and the photon field is constantly interacting with

893
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: electron fields, like a photon flying through space is constantly

894
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: interacting with the electron field. It's not like it just

895
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: sometimes does. And so the electron is causing these disturbances

896
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: in the photon field. And if those disturbances interact with

897
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: another electron, then that's effectively momentum transfer from one electron

898
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: to another through the photon field, which you could also

899
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: say is the exchange of a virtual photon, but it's

900
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: not really a particle. It's not a particle you could

901
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: like see with your eyes or if you put a

902
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: detector in there, because it's not a real photon. It's

903
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: just a ripple in the photon field that we call

904
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: a virtual particle to connect with this story about electrons

905
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: passing particles back and forth.

906
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: But I feel like this all sounds great, but I

907
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 2: feel like you're just going to run into the same

908
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: question as you did with the real particles picture right,

909
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 2: because you might say this is not a bowling balls,

910
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: there's a virtual bowling ball, or it's a tennis ball,

911
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: but you're still you're still run into the same questions

912
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 2: like if I toss a virtual a tennis ball to you,

913
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: how did I know where you were? And how did

914
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: you know to catch it? And why am I not

915
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 2: shooting tennis balls in all directions? And what if you're

916
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 2: and I'm an electron, how do we repel each other?

917
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: How do we throw a negatively momentum a tennis ball?

918
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, great questions, and we can actually answer all

919
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: of them now, right, So an electron is constantly creating

920
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 1: these ripples in the field. It doesn't have to know

921
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 1: that the positron or the other electron is there. It's

922
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: constantly creating these ripples in the electromagnetic field. That's just

923
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: what it does. The two fields are constantly interacting, so

924
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: you don't have to know the other particle is there.

925
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: So it's constantly in all directions shooting virtual photons. Yes,

926
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: but where does this energy come from? And wouldn't you

927
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: be able to see them? It's the same question you

928
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: have with the photons, right, mm hmm.

929
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: The energy dissipates, right, So virtual photons are not like

930
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: real particles that you could interact with. It's not like

931
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: it's shooting a light bulb at Alpha centauri and eventually

932
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: it will be seen. These fade away really quickly, and

933
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: if you try to think about them in terms of

934
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 1: a particle, it's really just part of the story. There's

935
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: lots of complicated ripples going on. You can describe them

936
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: in terms of one virtual photon or two virtual photons

937
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: or seventeen virtual photons. That's really just an attempt to

938
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: describe what's happening to the field. But to get back

939
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: to the question, basically, the two fields are constantly interacting,

940
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: So if a positron comes by then the fact that

941
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: there's an electron there. The electron is affecting the electromagnetic

942
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,919
Speaker 1: field that the positron is also constantly interacting with. So yeah,

943
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: basically you're constantly shooting these virtual particles. Answered the other

944
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: question of like, well, then how do you attract virtual particles?

945
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: Don't have to obey that law I told you about

946
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: earlier about what because they're not really particles. There you go, yes, exactly.

947
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 3: He's told me that it was not possible, Daniel, for particles,

948
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: or for bowling balls, or for tennis balls. Particles have

949
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,360
Speaker 3: to obey that law. Virtual particles are not particles. It

950
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 3: feels like a cop out because we're saying, oh, you

951
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 3: put virtual on it. You don't have to obey the rules.

952
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: Like if I'm driving my virtual car, can I ignore

953
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: the speed limits. It's not really a particle. It's just

954
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: a ripple in the field. And these fields can have

955
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 3: all sorts of weird.

956
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: Ripples in them that don't obey the rules of normal particles,

957
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 1: like negative mass or crazy high mass photons. That feels

958
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: like a contradiction.

959
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: So it is like I'm shooting a negative momentum tennis

960
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: ball at you, right, that's what you're saying.

961
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: Sort of, except that these are not particles, right, They're ripples.

962
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,720
Speaker 1: They're ripples exactly.

963
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: Just like a particle is.

964
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 1: A particle is a special kind of ripple that like

965
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: satisfies the wave equation of the field. Virtual particles do

966
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: not satisfy that, and so you can't even ask the

967
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: question like, what is the mass of this thing? There

968
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: are energy and they are flowing through the field, but

969
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: they're not particles.

970
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: Hmmm. I feel like you're trying to get me on

971
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: a technicality here.

972
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: Physics is technicalities, man.

973
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: But I guess the main question is, so you're saying

974
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: that if we've put the word virtual in front of it,

975
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: then this whole picture of exchanging particles work. You just

976
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: have to call them virtual so that they can break

977
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 2: the rules of regular particles.

978
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're not even really particles, right. I feel

979
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 1: like it's really misleading to just say, oh, it's a

980
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 1: kind of particle. It's not a kind of particle. It's

981
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: a totally different thing. Virtual particles are kinds of particles

982
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: the way bowling balls are types of cars.

983
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 2: Well, I see, Really the name should be a non

984
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: particle ripple.

985
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, come up with a better name than virtual

986
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: particle because that has misled millions of people.

987
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 2: Now, is that the best name for it, non particle ripple.

988
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: I feel like that's confusing because you're still using the

989
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:05,240
Speaker 1: word particle.

990
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: No, but it's a non particle ripple. It's a ripple

991
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean all the requirements of a particle.

992
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 1: Should I describe my bowling ball as a non car

993
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: bowling ball.

994
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: It causes confusion. Yeah, for sure.

995
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:17,839
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with cars. I should also

996
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,479
Speaker 1: describe it as a non banana ball and a non

997
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: chocolate ball.

998
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: Well, no, I mean the difference is that of this

999
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: virtual particle in this particle have something common, which is

1000
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 2: that they're both ripples in the field.

1001
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Bowling balls and cars both can roll

1002
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: down the road, right, very different things. I feel like

1003
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 1: you're trying to get me in a technicality here.

1004
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 2: No, just trying to understand you're confusing nomenclature here. But

1005
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 2: I mean, just so we can reach an understanding maybe

1006
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: with our listeners, would you say that a better way

1007
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: to call these things is as non particle ripples in

1008
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: the field, because I feel like that's what you just

1009
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: explained it as.

1010
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely better than virtual particles because they're not particles.

1011
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 1: And there are ripples in the field, yes, there you go.

1012
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 2: But some ripples are particles, but those are special m

1013
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 2: and so these are not those kinds exactly.

1014
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: And we often describe these in terms of virtual particles

1015
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: because we like to think about particles particles are the

1016
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: things we observe. We never see the field directly, right,

1017
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: You never observe a field. You only see the effect

1018
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: of the field on a particle. So a lot of

1019
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: people like to think of the particles as the sort

1020
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: of basic stuff that we're using to describe the universe,

1021
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: and in order to describe how they interactly, think about

1022
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: that in terms of particles. And we draw these cute

1023
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: little finement diagrams that include like little wiggles in the

1024
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: paper that we say are virtual particles. So it's a

1025
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: compelling story, but we should always remember these are not

1026
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: really particles. They're really just different kinds of ripples in

1027
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: a field.

1028
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: Well, and I mean to be a pain, but it's

1029
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: a little bit like says you kind of right, like

1030
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 2: you're saying that the boundary of the definition of a

1031
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: particle is that it meets all these rules. Now, is

1032
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 2: that something that's totally accepted by every physicist or would

1033
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: some physicists say, well, I would say any ripple is

1034
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: a particle.

1035
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: No, I think that's totally acceptable. And also, you can

1036
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: see real particles. You can't ever see virtual particles. They're

1037
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: just a part of the description. This feels very complicated ripples,

1038
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: and you can describe part of it using a virtual particle,

1039
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 1: but to describe it fully you need like an infinite

1040
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: number of virtual particles. So the virtual particles are just

1041
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: like a component of the story. They're not a real

1042
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: thing in any sense. You can't see or interact with

1043
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 1: a virtual particle.

1044
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: Would you sort of see them? When two electrons repel

1045
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 2: each other, aren't you sort of seeing them?

1046
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: Not directly? I mean, if you had like a photon counter,

1047
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: you wouldn't register any photons there. You're right, you can

1048
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: see the effect on two electrons. Absolutely well.

1049
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: You can't see in the photon either without interacting with it.

1050
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but here you're one more step removed. Right here,

1051
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: you're seeing its effect on the electron. You're not even

1052
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: interacting with a photon because you can't because it's not

1053
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: a real photon a virtual photon.

1054
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: Now, okay, so then you're saying that forces happen in

1055
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: the universe between two particles with a capital P because

1056
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: they interchange virtual particles or non particle ripples in the

1057
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 2: quantum field. Yes, does that mean that everything's explained now?

1058
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: That works?

1059
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: That works. That is a very effective description of how

1060
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: particles interact and allows us to ditt what particles will

1061
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: do with extraordinary accuracy, which makes us feel like maybe

1062
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 1: we got it right.

1063
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 2: And in this picture, like an electron is just sitting

1064
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 2: there in space and it's shooting an infinite number of

1065
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 2: ripples in all directions all the time.

1066
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: Well, the two fields are interacting with each other. The

1067
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,359
Speaker 1: electromagnetic field and the electron field are interacting with each other.

1068
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: The energy is kind of going back and forth, right,

1069
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: it's a constant interaction. You can describe that as like

1070
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: the electron creeds virtual photons which it then absorbs, or

1071
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: maybe those virtual photons interact with a passing positron or electron,

1072
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: or you can just think about it as fields sort

1073
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: of pulsing back and forth together.

1074
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,479
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, there's no like energy being generated. It's

1075
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: like the electron puts some energy into the photon field,

1076
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: and maybe that energy doesn't like dissipate, it goes back

1077
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 2: to the electron. But unless maybe there's another electron nearby,

1078
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 2: or a positron, in which case some of that energy

1079
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 2: goes to the other particles exactly. All right, that was

1080
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 2: not a forced conversation at all. You got very real,

1081
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: not virtual.

1082
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: And somewhere out there in some universe, Yoda is driving

1083
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: his bowling all down the road and this all makes

1084
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: sense to him. That's right on his way to his

1085
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 1: yoga class.

1086
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 2: Hot yoga class. Yes, Now, do you think both Jedis

1087
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 2: and Sith practice yoga or is this something only the

1088
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: Jedi would do?

1089
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's dark yoga there you.

1090
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 2: Go, Yeah, evil yoga. All yoga is evil. Maybe what's

1091
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: the other one? Pilates? Maybe pilates is what the Sith practice.

1092
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, forever he will dominate their strenchiness.

1093
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: That's right? All right? Well, I think this has been

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00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 2: an interesting exploration of how physicists view the universe and

1095
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: how particles interact. But again, this is just kind of

1096
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: your view of it, right, who knows what's really happening underneath?

1097
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, philosophically, this is just a story we tell that

1098
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: explains experiments. Is any of it true? Do the elements

1099
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,240
Speaker 1: of our ideas actually correspond to real physical things happening

1100
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: out there in the universe. That's for philosophers to decide.

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00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for

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00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 2: joining us. See you next time.

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Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come fine us on social

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Speaker 1: media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Insta,

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Speaker 1: and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel

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Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.