1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,279 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Halloween season 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: is in full swing. It's the best time of year, 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: both in life and the podcast. Uh And today we're 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: going to talk about a woman whose story is very 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: intertwined with someone who has come up on the show before, 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: but today's subject, Rose Macknburgh, never has, to the best 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: of my knowledge, I sure like her. She's one of 10 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: those historical figures I think I would love to have 11 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: a drink with and hang out with because she's funny. 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: She spent decades working to uncover fraud taking place in 13 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: the name of spiritualism. So today we're going to talk 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: about a few of the more high profile moments in 15 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: that career and how she turned to educating the public 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: about her work so that they would not be taken 17 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: in by Charlatan's. We've talked before about Harry Judini and 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: his relationship with spiritualism. That came up recently in brief 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: in our episode on Helen Duncan. If you were there 20 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: for our live streaming event in March of this year, 21 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: you heard us talk about his disagreement on all of 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: this with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in more detail and 23 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: how that ultimately damaged their once close friendship. Additionally, previous 24 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: hosts Katie and Sarah did an episode on Houdini way 25 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: back in two thousand nine. We had that as a 26 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: Saturday Classics. So we're not going to rehash his whole 27 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: entire life story, but we will do a very quick 28 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: refresher because his rise to fame and eventual shift in 29 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: how he viewed spiritualism is really important to Rose Makenburgh's story. 30 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: So Houdini, who was sometimes um believed by people to 31 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: have had some sort of supernatural ability, spent several decades 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: himself studying spiritualism and psychic phenomena. He amassed a really 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: impressive collection of literature on the subject, dating he claimed 34 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: all the way back to fot nine. He also attended 35 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: hundreds I would even guess possibly thousands of seances, and 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: he always said that he kept an open mind, but 37 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: that no mystical happening had ever been recreated under test conditions, 38 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: And he really did seem to want to have some 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: shred of hope regarding the afterlife and a possible way 40 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: to connect to it. Part of his initial draw to 41 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: seances was a desire to communicate with his dead parents, 42 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: and as he came to the conclusion that most, if 43 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: not all, mediums were just fakers who were trying to 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: cash in on the sorrows of desperate people, Houdini made 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 1: it a personal mission to expose these kinds of frauds. 46 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: In Judini published the book A Magician among Spirits, which 47 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: exposed a lot of the tricks that were being used 48 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: to fake seances, as well as other tricks that were 49 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: used by people claiming to be mediums. He wanted to 50 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: gather even more evidence of slight of hands being sold 51 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: to people as actual supernatural events. Now we don't have 52 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: a whole lot of information about Rose Mackenburg's early life. 53 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: We know she was born in Brooklyn, New York, on 54 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: July tenth, eight two. Her childhood isn't really particularly well documented. 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: That's not that unusual. Her parents were Louis and Anna Mackenburg, 56 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: and they were Russian immigrants. Once she was an adult, 57 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: she worked for a little while as a young woman 58 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: as a law office stenographer, and then we know that 59 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: by the time Harry Houdini had turned his attention to 60 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: debunking mediums. Rose was working as a private investigator, and 61 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: a friend is said to have introduced Mackenburg to Houdini. 62 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: When Rose was investigating a medium who one of her 63 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: clients believed was a swindler, and Houdini consulted with her 64 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: about how she might expose the man. But he also 65 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: was pretty impressed with Rose, so he then asked her 66 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: if she might be interested in doing similar work for 67 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: him on a regular basis. That request would change the 68 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: course of Rosa's life, but she really wasn't sure she 69 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: wanted to accept this famous magician's offer at first. She 70 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: later recounted an interviews that when she met Harry Udini, 71 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: she really believed in spiritualism and the ability of some 72 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: people to connect to and communicate with people in the afterlife. 73 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: She was frank with Hudini about this. She had no 74 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: interest in taking on a smear campaign against spiritualism. Judini 75 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 1: reassured her that he wanted only to expose frauds and 76 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: that if there were a real medium out there, she 77 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: could not be in a better position to find them. 78 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: So she became his advance agent and investigator. She joined 79 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: a team that the magician had hired that heartedly included 80 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: twenty people. Yeah, those were just his people that were 81 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: like working on this project of his to debunk fraudulent 82 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: mediums and for her investigations, Makenburg often wore disguises in 83 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: her early assignments. This was part just of assuming an 84 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: identity of someone who had a backstory that usually involved 85 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: the type of loss that would normally send someone to 86 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: a psychic for help, like contacting a lost loved one. 87 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: But as her career went on, Rose also ended up 88 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: needing disguises just to keep people from recognizing her, because 89 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: as she uncovered frauds, those frauds started sharing information about 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: who she was and what she looked like with other 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: people in their industry. There is a very funny photo spread, 92 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: they're actually several that have been published in her career, 93 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: in which she demonstrates some of the personas and costumes 94 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: that she would use to go undercover, and these are 95 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: quite charming. They included her posing as in her words, 96 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: us smartly garbed widow, a rustic school teacher, a small 97 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: town matron, a credulous servant girl, a believing semi invalid, 98 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: a woman seeking lost, relatives of vamp from the country, 99 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: and my personal favorite, a tipsy consultant um. That picture, 100 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: if you ever find it, is quite funny. She looks 101 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: like she is costumed in what you would stereotypically think 102 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: someone like a fortune teller would be, but when she 103 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: had her picture taken, she made sure to look like 104 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: she was a little intoxicated, and it is a very 105 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: funny picture. Rose had a pretty unique face, so she 106 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: doesn't actually look all that different as a person from 107 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: photo to photo, but her outfit and her physical demeanor 108 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: are different enough for each of these disguises and others 109 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: that for someone working only from a written description, she 110 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have garnered attention. In addition, Rose was pretty 111 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: deliberate in crafting her various looks. She told a reporter 112 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen thirties that she normally visit the 113 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 1: local department store of any town that she was sent to. 114 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: She would just watch the women shopping in there to 115 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: make sure that she was buying clothes that matched and 116 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: blended in with the styles that were favored by the locals, 117 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: and she would take as much as a week to 118 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: really learn the way people from the area spoke and 119 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: interacted with each other. Only after she really felt like 120 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: she had this whole thing down would she start visiting 121 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: the town's mediums. And in addition to faux seances, Rose 122 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: also uncovered a lot of inappropriate behavior on the part 123 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: of men claiming to be mediums. She noted in many 124 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: of her reports that men would grope her or even 125 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: try to coerce her into undressing or allowing them to 126 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: access her body in various ways under the guise of 127 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: doing their work. It was always clearly sort of sexual 128 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: and kind of gross in nature that would eventually become 129 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: so common and so troubling in these reports that Harry 130 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: Hudini suggested that Rose start carrying a gun in case 131 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: things ever got to a point where she felt she 132 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: was in danger, and she refused. The sexual harassment, though, 133 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: started right from the beginning, and it persisted throughout her career. 134 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: One of the most significant investigations that Rose conducted in 135 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: her early career as a debunker involved a man who 136 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: claimed to be a medium. He was named the Reverend 137 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: Charles H. Gunzulis. Gun Soulis was operating out of Indianapolis, Indiana, 138 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen twenties and Rose was sent to 139 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: visit him. That was six weeks before Houdini was scheduled 140 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: to have a performance in Indianapolis, and for this visit 141 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: to Gonzolos, Rose took on those guys of a mother 142 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: whose baby had recently died. She told Charles Gounzulis that 143 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: she was consumed by grief and she wanted more than 144 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: anything to just make sure that her baby was happy 145 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: in the spirit realm, and gun Soulis began his act. 146 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: There were two spirit characters that Gonzulis claimed he connected 147 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: with in the afterlife to help him in his quest. 148 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: One was a woman named Ella, who he referred to 149 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: as his spirit wife. The other was a Hindu guide 150 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: that Gonzulis told Macknburg was eight hundred years old. This 151 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: fake medium then told Macknburg that he would teach her 152 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 1: to contact the afterlife by using a bowl of water 153 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: as a scrying glass for the low price of twenty 154 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: five dollars. She took that offer and she had several 155 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: lessons with Gonzlis. He told her quote, I see you 156 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: were going to have three guides, a Jewish, German and Italian. 157 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: Does this mean anything to you shalom aleckum, and that 158 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: mentioned that we made of sexually predatory behavior that Rose 159 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: frequently ran into. Well, here it is. Gonzlis also told her, 160 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: after she had presented herself, remember as a grieving mother, 161 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: that this whole process was going to work better if 162 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: she took off her clothes. Rose did not do that, 163 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: but she did write a very detailed report of this 164 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: entire experience for Harry Hudini, in which she described Gonzulis's 165 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: manner as quote, Oily, We're gonna pause here for a 166 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: quick sponsor break, and when we get back, we will 167 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 1: talk more about Gonzulis and his relationship to both Spiritualism 168 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: and to Hudini. So this particular assignment to visit Charles 169 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: Gonzulis have been given to Rose because Houdini had a 170 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: bit of history with Gonzolas. Gonzulis was to be frank 171 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: a piece of work. In the early nineteen twenties, he 172 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: had preached sermons in defense of the Ku Klux Klan, 173 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,079 Speaker 1: claiming that quote, the ku Klux Klan is putting the 174 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: church back on its feet. Christ was the first klansman 175 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: and was crucified for saying what he believed if Christ 176 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 1: were here this morning, the chances are he would speak 177 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: on the same thing I am speaking about. So gross. 178 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: He often boasted about being the first Indiana minister to 179 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: join the clan, but by the time he got the 180 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: attention of Houdini, he had moved on from the clan 181 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: because they had mocked his interest in spiritualism. And then 182 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: he quickly became a rising star in the spiritualist movement. 183 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: He was listed in the edition of Hartmann's Who's Who 184 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: in Occult, Psychic and Spiritual Realms, which was published by 185 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: the Occult Press. In addition to making very strange claims 186 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: as a spiritualist minister, including that Jesus was visiting other 187 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: planets and would come back to Earth in the year 188 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: two thousand, Gonzolis also made threats. Weeks before Rosa's visit, 189 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: Gonzlis had written to Harry Houdini proclaiming himself to be 190 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: one of the country's leading spiritualists, and Gonsulis very much 191 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: did not appreciate Houdini's efforts to expose fraud in the 192 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: spiritualist community. He wrote, quote, it might be of interest 193 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: to you when I tell you that I know how 194 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: all of your tricks are performed while you are making 195 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: an exposure of spiritualism. It might be interesting if we 196 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: made an exposure of your tricks and published in the papers. 197 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: That's what interest the public and other magicians, don't you 198 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: think so? This really did not scare Houdini, and he 199 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: dispatched Rose. And when Houdini then gave his Indianapolis performance 200 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: at them or A Theater six weeks after Rose Macknburgh's 201 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: visit with Charles Gonzoliz, Gonzolis was in the audience, Harry 202 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: Houdini took the opportunity to expose the local medium. He 203 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: gave details to the audience about what had happened during 204 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: Rosa's visit. He had Rose joined him on stage to 205 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: give details of her interactions with Gonzolas and how he 206 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: had connected to her husband and children on the other side, 207 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: even though in reality she had never been married and 208 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: she had no children. Rose was not the only detective 209 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: that Houdini had sent to Gonzolis, and others were brought 210 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: forth during the performance to share their stories as well. 211 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,719 Speaker 1: This included one from the National Detective Agency who had 212 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: done a lot of research on the man and had 213 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: assembled a detailed dossier about his entire life. Gudini asked 214 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: Gonzolis if he'd like to respond to the accusations. So 215 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: this incident was also written up in local papers and 216 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: describes what happens. Quote. Mr Gunzlis declared that he is 217 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: with Houdini in his effort to drive out fraudulent mediums, 218 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: and that he admitted that out of mediums are fraudulent. 219 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: Mr Gunzulis evidently concluded he was outnumbered when none in 220 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: the audience rallied to his support, so he finally offered 221 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: Mr Houdini his hand, which was taken and bowed himself out. 222 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: It was after eleven o'clock before the controversy was over, 223 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: so basically he did not defend himself. This same pattern 224 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: of Makenburg traveling ahead of Houdini to towns on his 225 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 1: tours and then visiting mediums and cataloging their every interaction 226 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: with her so that Whodini could use those details on 227 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: stage to reveal the frauds during his shows was something 228 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: that played out over and over that was really their 229 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: like whole approach. Another approach that Rosen Houdini took to 230 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: expose frauds was for Rose to attend a seance and 231 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: watch carefully for how the medium involved was tricking their clients. 232 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: During those seances, she'd alert Houdini. He would help her 233 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: arrange to have another seance appointment, this time with members 234 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: of the press surreptitiously attending as spiritualists. The reporters would 235 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: be briefed ahead of time on the way that given 236 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: mediums act played out, so that one of them could 237 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: take a flash photo at exactly the right moment to 238 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: capture their deception. Yeah, they outed a lot of people 239 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: doing these two things. Rose's work did not only expose 240 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: self proclaimed medium she also exposed services that would certify 241 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: mediums as clergy of spiritualist churches. Rose paid so many 242 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: used for the certifications of ordination that among Houdini's staff 243 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: she started to be called by the nickname the Rev. 244 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: Her name even occasionally appeared in print as the Reverend 245 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: Rose Makenburgh. She wrote of her ordinations quote, I have myself, 246 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: in my several investigations, been regularly ordained a spiritualistic minister, 247 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: not once but six times. At the most. It took 248 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: me three days to be ordained, and once I was 249 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: ordained in twenty minutes. All that I required besides a 250 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: five dollar to five dollar fee was the claim that 251 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: I could hear and see, which means in spiritualistic circles, 252 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: the ability to hear spirit voices and see spirit forms. 253 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: Those who ordained me were so incurious once they got 254 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: their fee that they paid no attention to the ridiculous 255 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: names I had assumed for the occasions, the Reverend Alicia 256 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: Bunk all Is Bunk and the Reverend f Rod Fraud 257 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: I love her. She also encountered a really particularly gross 258 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: instance of sexual harassment that I would say borders on 259 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: sexual assault during one of her ordinations, in which your Reverend, 260 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: who she only ever named publicly as Reverend X, told 261 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: her that to be ordained as a woman, she would 262 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: first have to be purified by the man who ordained her. 263 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: He fondled her ankles, which she described as completely revolting, 264 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: although she stuck it out to get more evidence of 265 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: his fakeery. He then attempted to pull her close to him, 266 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: and things got a little out of hand, and that 267 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: is when she extricated herself from the situation. In n 268 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: Houdini famously appeared before the House District of Columbia committee 269 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: as part of an investigation into mediums and fortune telling 270 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: while legislation against it was being considered. That legislation, introduced 271 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: by Senators Royal S. Copeland and Saul Bloom, both of 272 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: New York, would have made fortune telling in the Strick 273 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: of Columbia subject to a quote penalty not to exceed 274 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: two hundred fifty dollars or imprisonment not to exceed six months. 275 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: Houdini was adamant that anyone billing themselves as a clairvoyant 276 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: was a sham, just trying to make a buck, and 277 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: that stance brought a lot of people who made their 278 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: livings as mediums to the hearings to defend themselves. There 279 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: were actually two hearings. One was in February, it was 280 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: just one day, and then there were several days later 281 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: in May, and during these Houdini gave demonstrations of how 282 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: spirit mediums tricked people into believing they had been speaking 283 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: with spirits. In one demonstration, he used a long trumpet. 284 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: This was something that a lot of mediums were using, 285 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: and he had different people hold that trumpet up to 286 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: their ear, and although no one ever detected Houdini saying anything, 287 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 1: the participants in the demonstration each reported that they had 288 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: clearly heard sentences spoken by seeming spirits through the trumpet. 289 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: Kudini also offered ten thousand dollars cash to anyone who 290 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: could prove during these hearings that they were a true medium. 291 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: One of the tests was for someone who claimed they 292 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: could speak with spirits to come forward and tell him 293 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: what nickname his mother had called him by as a boy. 294 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: No one ever did it. Kudini declared in his testimony, quote, 295 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: this is the only place in the United States of 296 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: America where a crook or clairvoyant is licensed for twenty 297 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: five dollars and under that can blackmail or commit any 298 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: crime under the calendar and get away with it. There 299 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: are millions of dollars stolen by clairvoyants and mediums every year, 300 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: and I can prove it. He declared palmistry a fraud, 301 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: and when asked about astrology, noted that sometimes astrologers make 302 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: good guesses, but that quote, I don't believe that chunks 303 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: of mud a million miles away can tell me what 304 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: will happen to me or mine. Yeah. He famously also 305 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: had made this scroll out of all the ordination certificates 306 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: that rose in. Other agents of his had acquired in 307 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: the course of their investigations, and he unrolled this entire 308 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,679 Speaker 1: huge scroll out um. It was very theatrical his testimony, 309 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: and in addition to giving that testimony, Harry Judini also 310 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: cross examined witnesses testifying in defense of spiritualist mediums, and 311 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: he also called his own witnesses. Remember this is not 312 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: like a court of law, it's a hearing, so it 313 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: doesn't work quite the same. In case that sounded weird 314 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: to you. Rose was one of the people that Houdini 315 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: asked to testify, and the most pertinent of her experiences 316 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: regarding this investigation was a visit she had with a 317 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: woman named Jane Coates. Coats was a very popular medium 318 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: in Washington, d c. And she had, according to Macknburg, 319 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: divulged some rather sensitive information about the ongoing debate over 320 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: spiritualism and this law proposed to outlaw it in the 321 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: nation's capital. Rose testified that Coates had told her that 322 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: there were too many believers in office for the law 323 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: to ever come to fruition. And Rose said that Coates 324 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: had told her quote, I know for a fact that 325 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 1: table tipping seances are held in the White House with 326 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: President Coolidge and his family. Coats also named three senators 327 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: who had she told Rose visited her for psychic readings 328 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: and frequently consulted mediums. Those were James Eli. Watson of Indiana, 329 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: Arthur Capper of Kansas, Clearance Dill of Washington State, and 330 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: Duncan Upshaw Fletcher of Florida. Rose's testimony was explosive, as 331 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: in Jane Coates stood up and started yelling denials of 332 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: Makenburgh's account almost immediately. Coats, in another medium known as 333 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: Madame Marcia, had asked to stand close to Macknburg as 334 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: she testified, so when these outbursts happened, Coates was yelling 335 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: right next to her. These things quickly escalated, and assume 336 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: there was so much yelling and even raised fists that 337 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: the committee lost control of the hearing and had to 338 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: call in a journment. Even after the session was cleared, 339 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: the argument carried on as people were shuffled into the hallway. 340 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: The New York Times account of the proceedings read quote, 341 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: Today's session was unusually disorderly and came near winding up 342 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: in a free for all fistfight. Cries of liar, fake, 343 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: and producer were exchanged by Houdini and his assailants, and 344 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: the din reached such a point that members of the 345 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: committee demanded the police be called. When speaking with reporters 346 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: after leaving the hearing, Jane Coates said that Rose Macknburg 347 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: had distorted what she actually told her. Coats clarified that 348 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: she had never told Rose that seances were held at 349 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: the White House, but that they took place quote under 350 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: the shadow of the White House. She also clarified that 351 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: while she had been consulted by senators, she had not 352 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: ever had a meeting with a member of the President's cabinet. 353 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: She also insisted that she had known Mackenburg was an 354 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: investigator the entire time that she was with her. There 355 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: is a whole secondary reason that Jane Coates would have 356 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: been really upset about Rose's testimony. That had nothing to 357 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: do with exposing her as a fraud, but it was 358 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: about upsetting the president. Probably nobody would want to do that, 359 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: But in this case there was a very specific reason. 360 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,959 Speaker 1: According to The New York Times, Mrs Coates was quote 361 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: interested in a claim bill that had passed Congress and 362 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: was before President Coolidge for signature, from which she was 363 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: to receive twenty five thousand dollars for eighty five cows 364 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: killed by the government on her family's farm in Maryland 365 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: several years ago. Of course, she would not have wanted 366 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: to do anything or have anything said in that hearing 367 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: that might cause the President to veto that bill instead 368 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: of signing. And she claimed that she was going to 369 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: clean up the spiritualism community with the money once she 370 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: got it, and, according to the Times quote, put it 371 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: on a high plane. The Coolidge administration was eager to 372 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: stay away from all those kinds of claims and heart 373 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: because the preceding Herding administration had been associated with mediums 374 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: and it was an embarrassment. Houdini wrote President Coolidge an 375 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: apology letter, insisting that he had never wanted to embarrass 376 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: the president, only to expose Charlatan's The White House gave 377 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: no official denial of the claims that seances had been 378 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: held with members of the Coolidge family present, but there 379 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 1: was an informal statement that the Coolidges were not interested 380 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: in spiritualism. Despite Houdini's compelling evidence, including Makenburgh's testimony. This 381 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: bill did not become law, but the whole event expanded 382 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: public awareness of fraudulent mediums. Yeah, it got written up 383 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: nationally in the papers, so people were suddenly a lot 384 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: more aware that there was an entire industry of fake mediums. 385 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: In just a moment, we're going to talk about Rose's 386 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: life beyond her work with Houdini, but first we will 387 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: pause for a sponsor break. If you are familiar with 388 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: Harry Judini's story, you may have already done some quick 389 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: math and realized that by the time he hired Rose Macknburg, 390 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: he only had a couple of years left in his life. 391 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: He died in ninety six. That was later the same 392 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: year that the hearings before Congress took place, of paritonitis 393 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: caused by a rupture appendix. But though her boss died, Rose, 394 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: who was still just in her early thirties at this time, 395 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,959 Speaker 1: stayed on the path that he had opened up for her. 396 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: She continued to investigate fraudulent claims of psychic abilities and spiritualism, 397 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: and she had new clients for this, primarily insurance companies, 398 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: the better business bureau, banks, and sometimes even police. And 399 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: while she and Harry had a pact similar to the 400 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: one that he had made with his wife, it's often 401 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: famously talked about that if there was a way to 402 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: communicate from the afterlife, whoever died first would reach out. 403 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: Rose said she never heard from Houdini after his death. 404 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties, Makenburg went to visit a medium 405 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: in Chicago named Herman E. Parker, after being privately commissioned 406 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: to do so. She claimed to be a widow Mrs 407 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: Rosalind Richards, still in a state of fresh grief from 408 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: only recently losing her husband. She later recounted that in 409 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: disguises of grief like this one quote, a touch of 410 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: onion at the eyes gave me the proper facial appearance. 411 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: Rose's disguise was one of plainness, and Parker clearly thought 412 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: she was poor. He charged her only a dollar for 413 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: her seance. He said that he had made contact with 414 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: her husband, and that the deceased was there in the 415 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 1: room with him, and that he was okay, and then 416 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: he started wrapping up the proceedings. But then Rose bated 417 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: Parker by telling him that she had hoped to ask 418 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: her husband about the three thousand dollars she had been 419 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: offered in a settlement. She noted in writing after the 420 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: fact that it was really comical to see Parker suddenly 421 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: become a lot more invested in helping her, but that 422 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: if she had been a real grieving widow, it would 423 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: have been tragic and frightening. After having learned that the 424 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: fictional Mrs Richards not only had three thousand dollars coming 425 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: to her, but also had fifteen hundred dollars in the bank, 426 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: something that he learned by insisting her dead husband wanted 427 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: to know the details of her finances in order to 428 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: advise her. Parker told Rose he was receiving messages from 429 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: the beyond to invest one thousand dollars with a man 430 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: named Wilcox. Of course, Parker knew a man named Wilcox 431 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: who owned a transportation company, so Rose wrote Wilcox a 432 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: deposit check for twenty five dollars, for which she got 433 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: a receipt That was evidence she was very purposely collecting, 434 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: and then she went to the Investors Protective Bureau and 435 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: relayed the entire series of events in her report. Both 436 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: Parker and Wilcox were, according to Rose, tried and found guilty. 437 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: While she continued to conduct investigations herself, she also became 438 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: an educator. She gave lectures and wrote articles detailing the 439 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: tricks that fraud psychics use so that lay people could 440 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: spot them and not be taken in by these simple tricks. 441 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: One message that she always included, Justice Houdini had was 442 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: that she had no problem with people who believed in spiritualism. 443 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 1: She only wanted to expose fraudulent mediums who exploited those 444 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: beliefs for financial game. She wrote about widows who were 445 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: cheated out of everything they had, and how even men 446 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: who seemed worldly were drawn in by the promise of 447 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: information that would lead them to riches. In an article 448 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: titled when Crime Poses as Spiritualism, Rose wrote, quote, after 449 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: ten years experience as a private detective working with commercial agencies, lawyers, 450 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: and district attorneys, it is my considered opinion, although I 451 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: have worked on gambling, robbery, blackmail, and murder cases, that 452 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: the most vicious criminals in America are the Charlatans who 453 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: betray and plunder their heartsick victims in the name of 454 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 1: the dear departed dead. She went on to say, quote, 455 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: My work has often led me into the squalid dens 456 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: where the cheapest and most despicable of these criminals practice. 457 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: Third rate magicians whose skill in deception is so little 458 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: that their prey, by necessity, must be the uninformed and 459 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: unprotected poor. One of the lessons that Makenburg tried to 460 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: impart to people was that spiritualist fraud tends to rise 461 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: in times of strife and uncertainty. That has become like 462 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: an accidental theme of our October episodes this year. It 463 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: was not planned, but it keeps coming up. She noted 464 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: that during wars and economic downturns, psychics seem to pop 465 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: up everywhere because people who are in a state of 466 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: uncertainty are desperate for something to give them hope or solace. 467 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: She wrote of this problem in nineteen one, quote, to 468 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: these Charlottean's who take a cruel and vantage of human 469 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,479 Speaker 1: grief and anxiety. War brings boom times. The anguish of 470 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: friends and relatives of dead, wounded, or missing servicemen offers 471 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: a fertile field for heartless deception. Fathers, mothers, wives, sweethearts, 472 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: and others close to those the Armed Service flocked to 473 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: the seances of those counterfeit dealers in the occult. During 474 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: the late stages of World War Two, Rose even had 475 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: Chicago journalist E. W. Williamson go with her on her 476 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: investigations also undercover, of course, and that experience became a 477 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: series for the Chicago Tribune in which Williamson relayed all 478 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: the same kinds of stories that Rose had been telling 479 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: since the nineteen twenties, covering mediums who were claiming to 480 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: have contacted dead relatives that were purely made up. On 481 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: April tenth, Rose died in her apartment at three ten 482 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: West twenty four Street in Manhattan. That is in Chelsea, 483 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: in case you're trying to men really make a picture 484 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: of where she was at. During her time as a 485 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: spiritual investigator, she had taken part in thousands of investigations, 486 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: and while some fake mediums once exposed claimed that they 487 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: had known who she was, she had never been questioned 488 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: by any of them during any of their interactions. Rose 489 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: was very widely in her approach and she always managed 490 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: to get her evidence. She once famously said of her 491 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: work quote, I smell a rat before I smell the incense. 492 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: Rose was very witty and a very funny writer. She 493 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: wrote an autobiography titled So You Want to Attend a Seance, 494 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: but that was never published. She did leave a lot 495 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: of great quotes and the articles that she wrote an 496 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: interviews that she gave seven she was quoted as saying, 497 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: I never married, but I have received messages from a 498 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: thousand husbands and twice as many children in the world 499 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: to come. Invariably, they told me they were happy where 500 00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: they were, which was not entirely flattering to me. I 501 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: love that quote. But though her wit can be cutting 502 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: and she was incredibly sharp, she was also always, as 503 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: we've said, incredibly careful to assure believers and spiritualism that 504 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: she was not out to get them, just as Houdini had. 505 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: She wrote in one of her articles, quote, although I 506 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: am skeptical of the claims advanced by spiritualism, I have 507 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: only the greatest respect for those who genuinely believe that 508 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: communication with the debt is possible. The attempts I have 509 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: seen to materialize spirits from the Great Beyond must be 510 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: numbered in the thousands. But I have never been convinced 511 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: that any message received was genuine. Yet, although I am 512 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: skeptical of the claims made even by genuine spiritualists, let 513 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: me confess now that I can find it in me 514 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: to hope they are right. We all of us, I believe, 515 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: must share that hope in some measure what a comfort 516 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: it would be. And that is Rose Macknburgh, who I adore. 517 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: She's such a fun one and I really I hope 518 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: people will seek out photos of her and her various disguises, 519 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: some as the art that will appear on social media, 520 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: but there are lots of them and they are very 521 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: very funny. Since the social media art nowadays is pretty 522 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: much always square, it's only a couple of them because 523 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: that what fits, that's what fits in a square. Oh, 524 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: she's so good. If you just do an internet search 525 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: on Google or any other search engine of her name 526 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: and do an image search, you're going to find lots 527 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: of pictures of her because she for those kinds of 528 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: pictures for newspapers. She would like do the whole pose 529 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: an expression, and it's very very entertaining. I have a 530 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: listener mail from our listeners Sarah about um baby kissing 531 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: and pasts and sewing, so it's it's covering lots of vases. 532 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: Sarah writes, Dear Holly and Tracy, I want to thank 533 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: you so much for having absolutely fabulous programming. First and foremost, 534 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm almost all the way through the archive, and it 535 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: gets me through driving around and running errands. I had 536 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: to stop folding laundry to shoot off this quick message 537 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: before I forget is I'm basically a squirrel with shiny 538 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: objects too. She writes, you brought up kissing babies, which 539 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: absolutely makes me bonkers. But your comments on Today's Behind 540 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: the Scenes about the campaign to kiss your baby to 541 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: check for cystic fibrosis really struck a chord. My best 542 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: friend's daughter, in fact, has cystic fibrosis, and I remember 543 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: she called me when the baby was about three months 544 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: old after her checkup and she was categorized as failure 545 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: to thrive. In to note, she had a very intense 546 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: burst situation where she um was actually born in the 547 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: front seat of the car in the hospital parking lot. 548 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: That sounds absolutely harrowing to me. Labor and Delivery kept 549 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: arguing with the emergency department that it was an emergency 550 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: situation since the baby was already born. Labor and Delivery 551 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: didn't want to admit her. So after some time and 552 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: back and forth, they finally got into the emergency department. 553 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: But a lot of the testing that normally gets done 554 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: right after birth did not happen. We have talked about 555 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: that testing before on our show. In the Virginia apcar episode. 556 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: She was categorized as an accidental home birth, and we 557 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: knew that mom's family was a carrier for the cystic 558 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: fibrosis gene, but when they tested Dad, they did not 559 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: do a big enough spectrum and the baby ended up 560 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: with a rarer genetic mutation of cystic fibrosis that was 561 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: outside of the scope of the test they had done. 562 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: I remember getting a phone call, which was funny because 563 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: we don't call each other. We text, so I knew 564 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: something was up, and she said to me that the 565 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: baby might have cystic fibrosis, and I had no idea 566 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: what that was. So she was giving me a quick rundown, 567 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: and I said, did you lick her? Is she's salty? 568 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,919 Speaker 1: And my best friend said no, And then she did, 569 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: in fact proceed to lick the baby and declared to 570 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: me she tastes like a potato chip. A couple of 571 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks of genetic testing and specialist appointments 572 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: and back and forth to doctor's offices, she does have 573 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: systic fibrosis. And now she is a vivacious nine year 574 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: old who was absolutely amazing in every single way and 575 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: very healthy, in part due to my best friend's absolute 576 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: militant sanitation and medication regiment, in part by a few 577 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: medical breakthroughs that's happened in the last ten years. This 578 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 1: is a fascinating version of that. Right, we talked about 579 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: how that is not normally the thing that people would 580 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: do anymore to test in that way, But this is 581 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: one of those rare situations where like things have fallen 582 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: through the cracks, right, I mean, at least here in 583 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: the US, where most people give birth in a hospital. 584 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: Not everyone, but most people give give birth in a hospital, 585 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: And like in a hospital, there's a a collection of 586 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: screening stuff that's supposed to happen immediately after birth or 587 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: shortly after, which isn't how it works in the whole 588 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: entire rest of the world. But yeah, yeah, I had not. 589 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: I had certainly not considered like those strange outlier scenarios 590 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: where those tests might not happen in the corporate timeline. 591 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: But that's interesting. Sarah also goes on to say, I, 592 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: in fact, am also not a hugger. I've become much 593 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: more relaxed and better about this in the last ten years, 594 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: especially after I started playing roller Derby. You get a 595 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: little bit touch desensitized, and I'm better about knowing if 596 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: their people are huggers, and so I can accommodate and 597 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: mentally prepare. I still don't appreciate a full frontal hug 598 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: unless I know you very well. I'd prefer a crisp pie. Five. 599 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: We were out of state doing the arduous task of 600 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: cleaning out my mom's apartment after she had passed, and 601 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: my best friend came with me. She is also not 602 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: a hugger. We were sorting things and donating piles, and 603 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,880 Speaker 1: my friend is in my mom's room sorting through clothing. 604 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: I'm in the living room, where We've had a few 605 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: neighbors come by to give their condolences, which I very 606 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 1: much appreciated, and one neighbor came in, mind you, I 607 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,240 Speaker 1: am absolutely filthy. I'm sweating. It's hot. We're moving boxes. 608 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: In the last year of my mom's life, her mobility 609 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: really went down, so there's a lot of cleaning that 610 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: just didn't get done. One of the neighbors starts moving 611 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: forward towards me with arms a kimbo, and I won 612 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: a jump back, put my arms up in a defensive 613 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: motion and screech. I'm not a hugger. I can hear 614 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: my best friend in the bedroom of this tiny apartment 615 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 1: suppressing a cackle as I start to word vomit apologies 616 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: trying to explain to the stranger I don't like hugging. 617 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming by. I do appreciate 618 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 1: the sentiment, all a slightly panic tone. We still laugh 619 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: about that day. It was one of the highlights of 620 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: an otherwise difficult weekend. Holly. I also want to send 621 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: a specific thank you for encouraging me to not be 622 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: afraid of zippers. I finally started learning to sew after many, 623 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: many years of threatening to learn how to sew into 624 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: all the Halloween fabric out right now. I was inspired 625 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: to make some simple gathered skirts, but I am not 626 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: a fan of elastic waistband hey me either, uh, and 627 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: I knew that I would have to learn how to 628 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: use my zipper foot. After many many YouTube videos, I 629 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: plucked up the courage and installed a zipper and realized 630 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: it really, in fact, was not that hard. And now 631 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: I have three fabulous skirts that I can can't wait 632 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: to wear all year long, and hopefully we'll have time 633 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,919 Speaker 1: soon to figure out how to transition the skill into dresses. Uh. 634 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: There are pictures of these skirts are very cute. I 635 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: also don't like an elastic waistband. It's just not very 636 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: flattering for a lot of people. Uh. And then there 637 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: are pictures Lord Hamish, the cat who's adorable uh and 638 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: likes to sleep on top of projects. Black fabric always 639 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: a favorite. I know that dance bark Vader. It's a 640 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,479 Speaker 1: very good boy and does not care, likes the couch 641 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: all to himself. So we get cat and dog pictures 642 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: and they are so cute. Um, Sarah, this is adorable. 643 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 1: So thank you for sharing all of this because you 644 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: hit so many points of things we've talked about. Those 645 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: skirts are very very cute. You're gonna look fabulous all 646 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: season long and all year long. Kiss those cute pets 647 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: for us. If you would like to write to us, 648 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 1: you can do so at History Podcast at i heart 649 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: radio dot com. You can also find us on social 650 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: media as Missed in History And if you haven't subscribed yet, 651 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: go ahead and do that. It's so easy. You can 652 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 1: do it on the I heart Radio app or wherever 653 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: it is you are listening to your favorite shows. Stuff 654 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of I 655 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit 656 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 657 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.