WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 2 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.399 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:27.560 can make your own decisions. Welcome to It could Happen 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.600 Here the show where I had to change the introduction 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:32.959 because Sophie said it would confuse people. So now we're 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.159 just doing the boring thing and saying the actual name 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.479 of the show, which is it could Happen Here. Um. 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.199 It's a show about the fact that the society is 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.280 kind of falling apart or changing, depending on your perspective 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.400 of things, and people need to prepare for what's coming, 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.280 which is a world of greater instability and economic collapse 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:58.160 and rising authoritarianism and increasing fights in order to reverse 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:02.520 and stymy all of those terrible things. UM. And you know, 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.360 one of the things I've seen in some early feedback 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:08.080 from um other stuff I've done on other shows, and 0:01:08.120 --> 0:01:10.200 also from earlier episodes of this is people who will 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.280 go like, Hey, everything you're saying about mutual aid is rad, 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.280 but I live in X town in whatever state, and 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.800 there's there's nothing here. There's not not an organized left. 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:23.120 I don't I don't know of any mutual aid groups. Um, 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:25.480 how can I get involved? Or like, how could I 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.399 start my own organization and try to get people involved? 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:30.440 And then the another thing we get asked a lot 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.440 is like, Hey, what you're saying about building resiliency and 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:38.000 preparing for difficult times, gardening and whatnot sounds great, But 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:39.640 I'm poor as ship and I live in a tiny 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.920 apartment um or whatever. I I have no resources or 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:45.880 no room. Um, even if you're not none of enough money, 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.480 like I'm in the middle of some horribly dense city. 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:53.840 So this week we're gonna be talking around those subjects 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:55.440 in a number of different ways. And to kind of 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.560 kick us off, I've got, of course, Garrison with me. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.000 Woke come up at nine in the morning. How are 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:05.800 you doing, Garrison ungodly early? Yeah, it's it's it's hideous, 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.600 it's hideous. Um. And then Margaret Killjoy, who's up at 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:11.960 a much more reasonable hour because time zones are a 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.280 wild ass thing. Margaret, How do you? How do we? 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:18.600 How do we introduce you? You're an author, you're a 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:22.560 writer of fiction. You host a podcast called Live Like 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.760 the World Is Dying, right, and you've had me on 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:27.160 and you talk about a lot of the same things 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:29.160 we talked about, and it could happen here. We're actually 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:34.560 shamelessly stealing your your your podcast in order to make 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.200 it corporate and sold out. How are you doing, Margaret, 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:42.480 I'm excited to be part of the corporate, sold out podcast, um, 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.960 and and actually very glad that you all do a 0:02:45.960 --> 0:02:49.640 wider audience thing. But um, I think that is a 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.360 decent way to introduce me. I do a lot of 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:56.000 different things, and I've been doing also, like organizing and 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.760 trying to seek radical political change for about twenty years. Yes, 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.040 degrees of success. Actually mostly not to any success, because 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:05.760 we actually still live in maybe a worse society than 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:11.720 we were in two years ago. Yeah. I tell people 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.480 that I dropped out of college to ride freight trains 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.160 and overthrow the government, and I wasn't good at either 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.440 of those things. I mean, you have all your limbs, 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.519 that's true. I do have all of my limbs. Yeah, 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:31.440 and you're not in prison, um, which is really all 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:35.560 anyone can ask of the universe. Um. So, you have 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.160 started a number of organizations in your career as an 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.600 activist in kind of that hat. And I guess let's 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:43.840 start with like, yes, somebody who lives in a place, 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.680 there's no kind of really really organized left. There's probably 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:48.200 not in a lot of these places much of even 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.360 like a democratic party. There's certainly not mutual aid efforts. UM. 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:54.880 And I do think that there's a well, well, mutual 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.880 aid as a concept is is pretty firmly rooted an anarchism. 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.600 There's mutual aid kind of organizations that are are not 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.080 particularly leftist or at least people doing stuff like that. 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:06.600 Like I think a good recent example will be the 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.840 Occasion Navy, who did a lot of rescues after the 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.000 most recent set of hurricanes, where certainly not a left 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.880 or an anarchist organization, but a lot of what they're 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:21.279 doing is um is a community aiding itself. UM So, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.160 I don't know where where do we where? Where do 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.159 you want to start here? Well, I guess I mean 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.080 specifically in disaster times, you don't necessarily work with the 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.720 people that you would assume that you're expecting to work with. 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:33.960 And you know, one of the one of the stories 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:35.520 that really sticks with me is like a friend of 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.800 mine who's this, you know, um train riding anarchist with 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.240 covered in tattoos and and all of that. And during 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.279 flood relief in eastern North Carolina was like flying into 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:50.960 storms and small planes with libertarians because the people who 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.200 are willing to fly small planes into storms and own 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:58.000 planes tend to be the more libertarian side of things. 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.599 And so here's anarchists and libertarians working together to get 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.040 people what they need. And one of the things that 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:05.919 I try, because this is one of the biggest questions 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.080 I think that the left faces, and you know, people 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:10.760 trying to make the world better faces, is how do 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:12.960 we get people involved? And also how do people get 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.480 involved if no one's helping them get involved? And um, 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.360 I don't have all the answers about it, but it's 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.680 something that I I think about obsessively some a lot. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:23.960 And one of the things that I really try and 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.280 focus on with people as people say, well, I want 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.720 to be prepared, and you talk about community being a 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.440 very important part of apparedness, but I don't feel like 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.000 I have a community, because we live in a very 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.040 isolated society. And one of the main things I try 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.200 and remind people though, is that in the same way 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:40.800 that property relations break down, like someone's like, oh, I 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.039 don't have any stuff, and if the apocalypse comes, what 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:44.440 will I do? And like, well, the kind of the 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:46.719 answer is that like, once property relations break down, there's 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.160 a lot of stuff and it's very people. There will 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.119 be much stuff around, Like warehouses exist full of stuff 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:59.400 and yeah, Amazon warehouses are going to become like fun boxes. Yeah, exactly, 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:05.560 slash fortified outposts alleged yea. And community is the same way, 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.680 not that you would go raid community, but instead that 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.920 um some people. Yeah, that's true. And but you can 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:14.000 you can create community in times of crisis in a 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:17.679 way that's actually harder to do when the existing social 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:21.080 order exists. And and the the thing I always say 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:23.320 uses my my dumb example of this about how people 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:25.720 come together during times of crisis is you know, when 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.240 I'm waiting for the bus and you know, some city 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.400 or something, and no one talks to each other if 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.760 you don't know each other until the bus is like 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.839 five minutes late, and then everyone is comparing notes about 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.719 where they think they saw the bus last and everyone's 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.920 friends and sharing snacks and things. You know. So in 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.800 some ways, I'm like, be optimistic if you don't already 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.240 no community. Yeah, And I think there's also things you 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.279 can do that don't necessarily cost a lot of money 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:57.400 to both kind of build resiliency and kind of community connections. Now, 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.440 one of those things I've had a lot of friends 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.400 in difference at ease work for there. There will be 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.200 different farming co ops, right, and generally the arrangement is 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.159 you volunteer some sort of time helping them with you know, 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.040 there's a lot of ship work on farms, and in 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.880 return you generally get some amount of produce or whatever. 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.640 But really what you're getting is practical experience growing food, 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:20.840 and you're meeting the kind of people who are interested 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.600 in growing their own food, and you know, those kind 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:26.520 of connections can be really helpful when things get worse. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.560 And so I think it doesn't necessarily it doesn't have 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:35.720 to cost much to to try building community now, or 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.040 to at least try putting yourself in some of the 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:40.440 spaces where the kind of people you might want to 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.640 be in, the kind of people you you might want 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:48.320 to know when things get worse might be Yeah, and 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.080 there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of like opportunities. 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.520 The world kind of wants you to volunteer, you know, 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.600 there's all of these things that if you reach out 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:58.960 to people and you're like, hey, I don't have any connections, 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.080 but I'm interested olunteering, there are types of organizations that 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.120 do interesting things that are open to that. You know, 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.320 I kind of maybe it's terrible, but whenever my friends, 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.559 especially my friends were in their twenties or something who 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.640 we don't really feel kind of lost and without direction 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.040 for a while, I'm like, go sit in a tree, 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.520 like go join direct action environmentalist groups that are desperate 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.680 for people to come live their lives in this like 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:29.239 self sustaining community. That is incredibly traumatic and hard to do. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:31.600 And I don't necessarily recommend this to everybody, but you know, 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.800 it's a thing that you can do, is that you 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:38.079 can go participate in in different movements, some of which 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:43.800 do want strangers, you know, some of which don't write. Um, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.000 you can't show up to everything and be like why 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.920 aren't you including me? You're a bunch of assholes. Yeah, 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.720 And um, I don't know. So when when it comes 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:56.480 to actually like trying to start something, um like like 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:58.880 like going out and accepting, Okay, there's not maybe I can't. 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:00.680 I can't leave my family behind and go to a 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.120 tree set. But I would like to, you know, start 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:11.199 a community engaging in something direct Maybe that's not illegal 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.920 direct action, maybe it is. It's none of my business. Um, 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:18.959 how do you recommend people just kind of start organizations? 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.240 Find people avoid pitfalls? Like you know, if you've got 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.480 to make your own mutual aid group because there's not 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.839 one in your town and you you wanna. I mean, 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.800 people have expressed a desire to understand how to do that. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.559 So I'm you know, I've never I'm not an organizer. 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.040 I'm barely a journalist. I am curious for your thoughts 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.040 on that. Well, okay, so as my own caveat is, 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.480 I'm no longer an organizer. I spent much of my 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.880 twenties being part of organizations, and then I finally, um 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:47.720 realize that I can just kind of do whatever I 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.600 want and then figure out how to plug that into 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.160 other people's things. But I will say the the main 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.840 way I've heard this expressed and I believe in, is 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:57.840 that we should do if you want to start getting involved, 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.400 is you think about what you're good at and where 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:01.880 you think about what you want to be good at, 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:04.400 and then you think about the problems that you're facing, 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.040 and then you think about how to apply what you're 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.560 good at to the problems that you're facing. So if 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.040 you're sitting there and you're like, well, I'm a I'm 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.600 a really good illustrator, right, I'm not. I'm a terrible illustrator. 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.240 But let's say you're a good illustrator, and then you 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:19.640 you could basically reach out to organizations that maybe you 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.319 aren't even close and be like, hey, I'm an illustrator. 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.600 Is there anything I can do for you? All? Um? 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.240 But if what you want to do is start an 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.960 organization locally, it's okay to start small and build up. 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.079 It's okay to you know, it's kind of a if 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.520 you build it, they will come kind of thing in general, 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.600 like if you start, if you figure out what you 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.240 need to do, you know, we want to distribute supplies, right, 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.640 then you just do it like you just. Um, even 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.120 if you start by yourself or ideally you kind of 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:52.120 start with yourself and a couple of friends that you 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.880 drag into it, and then you see what gets inertia 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.080 like rather than like forcing, rather than starting off, don't 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.560 start off by writing your by laws. Um, you know, 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:03.120 maybe start with an idea of like if you have 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.559 a cool name that you want to use, like sometimes 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.640 that's great to start with, like a hook, and like 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.640 starting a band or something. You know you'd start with 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.400 like the thing that brings everyone together, which is sometimes 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:14.920 a clever name, but but mostly you just start by 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:18.679 doing it. And um, you know. One of the one 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.079 of the ways that's longest standing that people can get 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.080 involved with locally or start locally, and there's a lot 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.160 of resources about how to do it is is Food 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.600 Not Bombs. Food Not Bombs is a a mutual aid 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:29.480 project that's existed and I wish I knew off the 0:11:29.520 --> 0:11:30.760 top of my head since when I want to say, 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.600 the late seventies, but I really couldn't tell you. And 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.480 it's just food. It's just organizing food to give to 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.760 people in public. And it's actually wild how illegal it 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.040 is in some places, Like people get arrested for Food 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:44.440 No Bombs all the time in Florida in a couple 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:46.800 of other places. But yeah, we talked about them in 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:48.440 the first part of the season, because there have been 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.640 a couple of point. I don't think nationally the FBI 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:52.440 is talked about them as a terror threat, but like 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:54.200 in the Austin Field office, and I think one or 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.680 two other places they've been like discussed as a terrorist 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.400 threat for handing out food. I've had like helicopters flying 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:03.880 overhead and like riots around the corner and stuffed for 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.440 for handing out food with food ut bombs. Yeah, it's uh, 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.200 they missed the second half of the name. I guess, 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.600 I don't know. I don't know. I think maybe if 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.160 we were to create bombs, not food, we we might 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.640 not get as much police attention. But that's just a 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:20.960 seery Yeah, well what everyone says that we need food 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:22.640 and no one says this. No one would ever say this, 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:24.160 no one would ever believe this. But we need food 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.719 and bombs. You food and bombs, yea, bombs for some 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.400 food for others. We don't judge. We provide explosives and 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:36.640 we provide food. Yeah, okay, So if you can, I 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.040 think if you can, you start by working, You figure 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.120 out what you're good at. You find a group of 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.079 people that are interested in accomplishing the same thing who 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:47.840 maybe have similar skill sets or different skill sets, and 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:49.160 you figure out what you can do, and you start 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.120 doing it, and you organize calling people and being like, hey, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:55.000 well you donate to us, or getting all your friends 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.040 together to give you stuff to to redistribute or whatever, right, 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.000 putting out calls on social media for things to redistribute. 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:05.720 You know, most structures start grassroots, and most of the 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.400 time they kind of tend to do best when they're 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.800 grassroots instead of becoming a little more codified. So, if possible, 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.840 do that. But if you're just you, um, sometimes tying 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.480 into existing organizations is a thing worth doing. And if 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.360 there's nothing locally, you can look at things a little 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.280 further away, or you can look at things that are 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.240 on maybe on a national level. But there's a lot 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:30.720 of dangers in joining existing organizations and structures, and I guess, 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.520 I guess I would say there's like three types of danger, 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.000 and one is that you talked about all the time. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.960 And thanks for bringing into the leftist vocabulary the word grifter. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:42.439 I never heard anyone use the word grifter until your podcast. 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.400 It's the most important word in the American English for sure. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.840 We live in a fucking grifter Republic. It's incredible and 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.800 we always have this isn't new, Yeah, but we need 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.360 more words because we also need the word for people 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.400 who are looking for useful idiots. And there's a lot 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.079 of social movie mints and not to be like I 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:04.120 I support the Left. I think that what we're attempting 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:05.959 to do is very worthwhile, and I like us more 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:08.160 than the other side by a fair amount. But there's 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.079 a lot of things that there's a lot of problems 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:14.160 with the Left, and one of them is that people 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:17.360 are looking either to just have you as a body 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.200 with no decision making power and no autonomy, which doesn't 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.360 actually build a better world because you're just stop being 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.360 a cog in their machine and become a cog in 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.000 our machine. Right. And then there's also people who are 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:34.960 kind of um looking for useful idiots canon fodder, like 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.840 people to hang around while they while they do stuff, 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.120 or you know, and I don't want to go to 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:44.440 hard bodies to stand out in front of cop shops sometimes, yeah, 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.360 and even like you know, even like movements that I 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:48.840 really care about that might do a lot of like 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.560 non violence of this obedience, although I don't I'm not 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.160 particularly I'm not passed this personally, but you know, it's 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:57.200 a very useful strategy non violence of these obedience. But 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.000 sometimes they're like, oh, you're young and new, lock your 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.640 self to this thing, get arrested. And I would definitely 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.600 say to people, don't get arrested on purpose at your 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:10.160 first actions, like, don't be anyone else's cannon fodder until 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.840 you feel like you are part of the decision making 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.760 and part of like like you really matter and like 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:23.520 then then don't um do dangerous things for other people's projects, 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.160 like the ship that states do that's so messed up 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:31.880 is is turn human bodies into resources that then get 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:35.920 sacrificed for unclear ends. Um, And unless you feel like 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.000 you have some sort of like there are times we're 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.200 being arrested is necessary and helpful, but unless unless you 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.960 feel you fully understand not just why you're doing it, 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.600 but also that like you you you're not being told 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.600 to do it, you have autonomy and like, I'm going 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.120 to do this thing that I know will end in 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.200 my arrest because I like, I don't know. That's probably 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.360 like I think most people in that position know this, 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.960 but I definitely have encountered some uncomfortable situations in the past, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.280 I'm sure similar to once you Have, where it did 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:12.120 seem like people were kind of being pushed to take 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.160 that risk for reasons they didn't fully understand or in 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.960 a situation they didn't fully grock you know, yeah, which 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.440 which gets at one of the things that when I 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:25.400 talk about how I think this is the biggest problem, 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.200 not not the cannon fodder issue, but the getting people 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:31.560 involved is the biggest issue I think we currently face 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.800 because there's so many people who want to be involved 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:37.360 right now, because the world is even worse than usual 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.960 and um and it's hitting groups of people who haven't 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.880 been hit by before. And people are often also looking 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:47.840 for a sense of community. And there's a thing that 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.480 people we don't talk about enough when people are getting involved. 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.320 There's two different reasons people get involved, and both are 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:58.320 entirely valid, and one is to fix things and another 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.960 is to find to break of the isolation that they 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.520 live in in their daily lives. Um and we need 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.400 to be aware of that when we talk about how 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.240 to onboard people, and we need to be aware about that. 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:11.880 If you are getting involved, you should think about your 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:16.960 own desires. Are you looking for community and if so, 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:21.480 you can find it within radical action, right. Um. But 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:23.960 if you are doing that, then you especially need to 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.040 be on guard against peer pressure because it's a really 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:28.920 easy way to feel like you're involved with things is 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.600 to go hang out with people who are all doing 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.479 a really scary thing. And and that's beautiful. And I 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.639 absolutely did that when I when I first got involved 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.119 in anarchism, I I and politics in general. I I 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.520 joined in head first, and you know, spend a night 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:47.919 in jail within the first couple of months, and I 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.280 don't have any particular regrets about that. And I found 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.159 community in a way that I had never had in 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.760 my life because of how isolated our society is. But 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.240 that's not the only reason to to go do these 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:01.879 and that is I mean, I think a lot of 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.480 people experienced that last year during the George Floyd protests. 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.560 It's the kind of I mean, it's the thing we've 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:09.480 talked about on in the first season. If it could 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:14.800 happen here that times like that this war does this too, 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.040 can actually provide meaning that that people have lacked. And 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.160 a lot of it is that community that like community 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.879 of sufferers, the trauma bonding um that feels like the 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:26.800 most important thing, even because maybe it is the most 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:28.280 important thing you've ever done. I think in a lot 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:32.160 of cases it is. Um. But that's also mind altering 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.280 and it um. It can lead to situations that are 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.560 not entirely dissimilar to cults. UM. I'm not saying that 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.040 they are cults, because cults are number one. With cult 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:44.960 there's generally going to be like a leader and a 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.320 in such but like, there are things that happened that 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.840 that draw people into cults that are just human things, 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.760 their aspects in some cases, as I've said before, of 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.159 like a good party, um. But there are cults like 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.560 aspects to the kind of groups that form in these 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:02.399 traumatic situations that can lead people to start making really 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.520 poor decisions. UM. And and so you have to really 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:10.719 you always have to be kind of analyzing not just 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.040 what you're doing, but what's going on in your own head, 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.040 in the head of the heads of the people around you. UM. 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.360 That's that's just always important. But I think particularly when 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.040 you're when you're trying to do something new and different 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.160 in a lot of ways, bigger than anything you've done before. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.119 Do you have any specific advice for like kind of 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:37.360 avoiding the cults of personality that sometimes form in new organizations. Yeah, 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:41.120 so you have both informal and formal structures can both 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.159 cause problems with cult of personality. There are these brilliant 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:45.959 essays that I haven't read like twenty years that come 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.360 from the feminist movement, and one of them is called 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.760 the Tyranny of structural Lessness. And as best as I remember, 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.960 these are very short essays. As best I remember, the 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.400 Tyranny of structurallessness says, if you don't have a formal 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.160 structure in your organization, you're going to have this informal 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.119 leader who basically tells everyone to do and that's a 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:06.359 problem and and it's a very important piece, and I 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.639 believe it comes from a Marxist feminist perspective, but I'm 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:11.880 not certain. And then there was an anarchist feminist response 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.600 around the same time, maybe I'm not sure, called the 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:18.040 Tyranny of tyranny that was like, yes, that's true. And 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.320 also when you have a formal structure and put someone 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.520 in charge there in charge, and that has other problems too. 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:25.320 And I think that it's just we we have to 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:28.560 be aware of both of these things. That, um, you 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.639 know the fact that most movements are very decentralized in 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.879 grassroots as as huge advantages, right, but it does have 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:41.960 problems of causing informal cults of personality. Um. Podcasting is 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.679 a big part of this problem. Um. And actually, I 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:48.360 really appreciate that you're not an organizer like frankly, And 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:50.520 it's part of why I'm not an organizer on some 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:55.000 level is because when people read the books that someone 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.639 writes or listen to someone's voice all the time, it 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:02.439 is very influential, right, And being aware of that and 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:08.000 therefore not exerting that power is a very good thing. Um. 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.520 And but there's okay, so the other thing, like when 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:13.600 I worry about like people getting involved with like don't 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.040 get peer pressured into stuff when you first join. There's 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.720 also this thing that is needs to be talked about 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.920 and maybe I'll have talked about this some previously, but entrapment. 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:28.560 Entrapment is a huge problem, and specifically the FEDS tend 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:33.560 to look for young idealist activists who can be peer 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.040 pressured into actions that they may or may not have 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.119 otherwise ideologically agreed with, like hey, let's go blow up 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:44.160 a bridge or let's go blow up a damn and 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:46.520 and this doesn't just happen to the left. It happens 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:51.520 m oh, yeah, it's all around. Yeah for sure. Like 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.320 there's that case of the guys who are trying to 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:57.159 kidnap the governor of was it Michigan. A lot of 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:00.600 that was informants who were there's a lot there's You 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:04.760 can debate heavily whether or not it was entrapment. Obviously, 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.600 what we we might consider entrapment morally often isn't entrapment 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.440 legally because the FBI does know where the lines are legally, 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:17.639 but that doesn't mean it isn't morally entrapment, right, And 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.040 they do that a lot, and they usually succeed um, well, 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.040 they may not usually succeeded, though they usually succeeded the case, 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:30.199 and entrapment defenses are hard to succeed with. And so really, 0:22:30.520 --> 0:22:35.560 just like an thinking about it, I think developing your 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:37.720 own moral compass and sticking to it is one of 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:40.560 the single most important things that a new activist can 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:44.560 can do. And not to be afraid of radical action 0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:49.000 necessarily like militant action, but but be wary of it. 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:52.119 Um But then again, I mean in terms of like 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:57.480 being wary of what the other thing to avoid doing 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:00.160 is like accusing each other like fed jacketing, like being like, oh, 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:01.800 well that person is doing the same thing a FED 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.520 might do, like wink wink. You know. Um, it's a 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.120 really complicated an annoying game to play, and if you're 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:09.760 just getting involved, you're gonna have to learn how to 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.680 get it play this game of not fed jacketing and 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:18.400 also not um falling into stuff. And it's annoying because 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:20.399 you probably have to kind of learn some of the stuff, 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.560 even if all you want to do is give away blankets. 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:26.440 You know, if you want to tie what you're doing 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:30.760 to a larger ideological structure, then it's going to come 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:34.840 up that you need to be aware of how repression 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:38.640 applies to that larger ideological structure. Yeah, like all this 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:44.360 is very useful specifically if you're trying to find something 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:49.040 kind of pre existing um or you know, looking you know, 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:51.840 or you know, starting something in the bigger city where 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.680 you have like connections can be made to other existing organizations. 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:57.920 And I'm trying to think, you know, there's a lot 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:01.000 of people who live in more like rural areas. It's 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:03.800 not much like a liberal or like, you know, especially 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.800 left is kind of slubculture. How would how would you 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:09.240 recommend people who live in those kind of scenarios try 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.200 to start building this community. Woudn't say like they only 0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:15.520 have like a few friends? Um, what what steps do 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:19.600 you think people can take if they have more, you know, 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:24.879 a secluded set up? So it is harder. And I 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:28.360 live in a red area close to a blue area, right, 0:24:28.440 --> 0:24:30.399 And I do most of my organizing and as much 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:34.760 as I do organizing within the the nearby small hippie city, 0:24:35.400 --> 0:24:39.160 even though theoretically the thing that I care the most 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:42.320 about is connections to my immediate neighbors. Right. Um, that 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:44.560 is harder, And it is harder for a lot of 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:49.320 different reasons, especially if you have cultural differences between you 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:51.720 and the people that you're around. Right, Like I'm a 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:54.119 trans woman and I've live around a lot of like 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:57.639 farms and stuff, right And and previously this wasn't a 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.280 problem before Trump, This what kind just wasn't a problem 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:01.920 after Trump. Now, all of a sudden, the fact that 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:04.080 I'm trans as like an attack against people in a 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:07.040 way that it never used to be. And and so 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:08.879 now they all have an opinion about the fact that 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:13.040 we're an address. But still at the end of the day, 0:25:13.080 --> 0:25:15.719 I would say that most of the people that I'm 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:20.120 around are actually totally chill. Like there's a vocal minority 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:24.200 of really horrid people, right, um. But even the people 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:26.840 who might be and might have even like voted for 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:30.840 Trump or whatever, um, are not necessarily, at least along 0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:33.879 my own identity lines. Also white are not necessarily going 0:25:33.920 --> 0:25:36.040 to give me ship. And you know, I can go 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:38.200 talk to them in address and they might be sort 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:40.879 of confused, and they might not be. But if you 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:43.719 have more culturally in common with the people around you, 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:45.159 then there is a lot of room that you can 0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:46.800 start working on from there. And this actually ties into 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:48.720 something that I think applies to people across the board, 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:51.800 which is we have this especially new activists, but also 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:53.720 including people who've been in it for a long time. 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:56.240 And this like real arrogance about the fact that we're 0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:58.600 like right, And when you want to change the world, 0:25:58.680 --> 0:26:00.440 you need a certain amount of arrogance, need a certain 0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:03.400 amount of like I mean, I literally believe we need 0:26:03.480 --> 0:26:05.439 to not have a government or capitalism, and these are 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:08.360 very major changes to our existing structure, just a huge 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:11.400 amount of arrogance to that. Although not having a government 0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:13.800 is slightly less of a major change now than it 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:16.840 was a couple of years ago. It's true, and also 0:26:18.240 --> 0:26:20.320 like something like sometimes, actually it's funny. I used that 0:26:20.359 --> 0:26:22.040 it more in common with these neighbors, but then all 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:26.480 the libertarians went, goddamn authoritarian. That bummed the funk out 0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:30.399 of me. Yeah, there's there's some good ones still. There's 0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:33.000 like again, there's the there's the there's the taking your 0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:36.040 private plane and do a disaster area libertarians and God 0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:39.960 bless him totally, And you know, they're like, they just 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:42.480 don't want them. You know. It's like my dad is 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:44.520 sort of on the libertarian side of things and keeps 0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:46.560 twenty dollar bills and the visor of his truck to 0:26:46.600 --> 0:26:48.560 give to people flying signs, and he just doesn't want 0:26:48.560 --> 0:26:52.480 the government redistributing his money. He doesn't mind redistributing his money. Yeah, 0:26:52.600 --> 0:26:55.920 And I'm like, all right, I don't have any real 0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:59.840 objection to that. He's also no longer anyway. If you 0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:02.639 come at people with this attitude of like I'm right 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:05.399 and you're wrong, the kind of people that you can 0:27:05.520 --> 0:27:07.560 get to join your side by saying I'm right and 0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:10.840 you're wrong are not the people you want. You want 0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:14.720 people who challenge authority, including the authority of people who 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:19.160 claim there should be authority, and and so just actually 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:22.760 listening to people and like hearing people out and um, 0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:26.240 when possible, avoiding drawing lines between people is one of 0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:29.720 the main ways to connect with people across either cultural 0:27:29.720 --> 0:27:33.840 divides or especially political divides. And this this can't always happen, right, 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:36.000 Like I walk down the street and address and someone 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:39.240 like called me a bad word, Like I'm not going 0:27:39.320 --> 0:27:41.760 to be like, I understand why you think to call 0:27:41.840 --> 0:27:45.440 me that, And I understand how like me dressed this 0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:48.400 way kind of challenges your sense of masculinity that you've 0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:50.359 been brought up into is the only way that you 0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:53.480 can hold yourself strong in a very hard world. No, 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:55.760 I don't do that. I um scream funck you and 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:59.280 chase them. Um, I would ever chase anyone with a knife. 0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:01.880 I think that's not legal, So I wouldn't do that, 0:28:02.280 --> 0:28:07.800 but um, you know that might work. And you know, 0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:10.879 like fun those people, I don't care what they have 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:13.520 to say. No, of course not. And it when I 0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:17.960 think one of the things that I don't know twitter 0:28:18.000 --> 0:28:20.520 brain has done is that like when you when you 0:28:20.520 --> 0:28:23.359 talk about reaching out and talking to people who you know, 0:28:23.400 --> 0:28:26.760 don't agree with you, aren't aren't on your side ideologically, 0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:29.280 there's folks who will kind of assume, like, oh, so 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:31.280 you're saying I should like try to be friendly with 0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:32.879 people who would have murder me. Like, No, I'm not 0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:34.920 saying that. I'm not saying that, like, as a transperson 0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:37.840 or black person, you should go talk to um, a 0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:42.400 militant anti LGBT activist or a fucking klansman or something. 0:28:42.440 --> 0:28:45.480 I'm saying that, like, that's not within the broad I'm 0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:47.600 saying what you need to recognize. But what I think 0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:50.920 is important to recognize, especially if you're when we talk 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:54.400 about like post you know, collapse or whatever, is that 0:28:54.760 --> 0:28:57.640 within broad political tendency. So I'm not talking about like 0:28:57.760 --> 0:29:01.560 fascist or whatever, but I'm talking about like liberal, role conservative, progressive, 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:06.120 very broad political tendencies. You have roughly the same percentage 0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:08.920 of people who are ship. So in an anarchist group, 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:11.280 the amount of people who are shitty is going to 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:13.720 be similar to the amount of the general population that 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:16.520 are shitty. It's the same with every political tendency. But 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:19.400 the corollary to that is, again within broad tendencies, you'll 0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:22.080 find roughly the same amount of people who are basically 0:29:22.160 --> 0:29:25.560 rad and maybe yeah, there's some they have their brain 0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:27.719 got poisoned with dis info and they believe some stupid 0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:30.800 shit and they vote like an asshole. But you know, 0:29:31.240 --> 0:29:33.840 they'll stop their car if they see someone in an accident, 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:35.720 and they keep a fucking medical kit in their bag, 0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:38.040 and you know there that it's the it's the it's 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:39.960 the ship that you know. I talk a lot about this, 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:43.080 the stabbing on the Portland Max train. Well, the two 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:49.000 people who who died confronting that asshole. Um, we're a 0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:54.120 republican retired veteran and a far left social justice activist 0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:56.600 and they both you know, put their bodies on the lines. 0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.440 I think that like when we talk about like being 0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:03.800 willing to kind of talk with people who are who 0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:07.600 are not on the same ideological boat as you, that's 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:10.200 that's what I mean. Not you should make nice with 0:30:10.200 --> 0:30:13.720 the people who want to exterminate you, like suck those people. Yeah, 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:16.560 because the thing you're looking for, the thing I'm looking 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:19.880 for is the Republican who's going to, hopefully, instead of 0:30:19.920 --> 0:30:24.000 dying to saw alongside me, successfully defeat the you know, 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:27.720 actual far right person. But yeah, yeah, totally and and 0:30:27.760 --> 0:30:30.480 I think that that actually is part of the It's 0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:33.200 not always the answer for every person who's isolated, right, 0:30:33.240 --> 0:30:35.959 everyone who's socially isolated, but it is part of it. 0:30:36.000 --> 0:30:38.120 If you're trying to organize with people where you say 0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:42.400 you're the only leftist or the only anarchist in your area, 0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:44.680 then maybe you don't start. And this is actually funny. 0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:48.040 I'm very into being very public about my political ideology 0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:50.080 so that people know what bias is UM coming into 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:52.920 things with. But but maybe you don't start your rural 0:30:53.000 --> 0:30:55.480 Mutuo aid project calling it the Rural Mutuo Aid Project, 0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:58.160 or maybe you do, and maybe you you just start 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:00.400 doing it and you find people who are willing to 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:04.400 have the same goals and means as you, and and 0:31:04.600 --> 0:31:06.920 I think you can do alongside of that, you can 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:09.320 also just be really public about what you believe. I mean, 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:11.440 you know, um again, as an anarchist, I end up 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:14.720 working with like church groups and things that I don't 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:17.240 necessarily agree with on a lot of a lot of things. 0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:20.760 But they're not mad when I'm like, oh, I'm an anarchist, 0:31:20.920 --> 0:31:25.800 They're just like, huh, okay, I'm a church person or 0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:29.160 what you know, and like Okay, I'm not. I don't 0:31:29.200 --> 0:31:31.640 expect different of them, and they don't expect different of me. 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:33.640 And we we know what we have in common and 0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:35.440 what we don't to a certain degree, and then we 0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:37.760 work on what we have in common and so airing 0:31:38.560 --> 0:31:39.960 and so this is both true if you're within the 0:31:40.040 --> 0:31:41.920 movement and you're hoping to try and solve this problem 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:44.080 for other people. But I also think it's going to 0:31:44.120 --> 0:31:47.160 be true for people who are trying to build things 0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:49.040 in areas where they don't have, where they don't feel 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:51.160 like the part of something larger is airing on the 0:31:51.160 --> 0:31:53.880 side of inclusion versus exclusion and not And like you're 0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:55.800 talking about, it's about airing on the side of not 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:59.080 always include everyone, not always committing to a hard and 0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:03.400 fast rules out. Yeah, totally. Yeah, be be open to 0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:05.680 the fact that people can surprise you in ways that 0:32:05.720 --> 0:32:11.080 aren't terrifying. Yeah. Also, because you get terrified enough by 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:12.920 enough like people who you think are on your side 0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:15.400 that you're like, oh, yeah, I'm sad you all don'to 0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:19.320 the the ad pivots in this show, because you can 0:32:19.360 --> 0:32:23.120 do it. We can do it, we can yea, we 0:32:23.160 --> 0:32:25.560 can cut it in During one of the long awkward pauses. 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:28.640 Go for it, and we'll keep all this up to 0:32:28.760 --> 0:32:32.040 it in, but we'll actually cut the actual so you'll 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:34.400 hear it. It's like Finnigan's Wake. You're going to hear 0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:37.719 it out of order, okay, And I hopefully you all 0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:39.160 be able to figure out the second half of it, 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.000 but the first. The first half is anyone who claims 0:32:41.000 --> 0:32:45.000 to have all the answers is selling you something. Oh 0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:47.640 uh huh yeah, oh oh you know who else is 0:32:47.680 --> 0:32:53.040 selling you something? Is that the ads go listen to 0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:56.120 the Guico Geico or or Jesus. We've had some bad 0:32:56.160 --> 0:33:00.120 ones lately. Um, there's that s os Cuba show that 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:05.080 sounds we're rough. Uh. There was that one that was 0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:07.360 just like God. It was just like this is the 0:33:07.440 --> 0:33:12.320 concept of we are sponsored by God. I think I've 0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:15.640 gotten like Walmart and McDonald's on your show before. Remember 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:21.600 it's the people's food. Oh yeah, organized actually try to 0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:26.040 organize around the Walmart. That could be very so. Anyway, 0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:30.400 here's ads. If someone is trying to start something new 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:34.240 inside one of these more secluded areas and like they 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:37.360 have decided like yeah, I'm willing to do something. I'm 0:33:37.360 --> 0:33:40.200 willing to actually just like start it. How how would 0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:43.080 you recommend they try to figure out what some of 0:33:43.120 --> 0:33:46.040 the like biggest needs of the community are that they 0:33:46.040 --> 0:33:48.760 can actually tackle, Like how how does someone find out 0:33:49.760 --> 0:33:51.920 what to do with their mutual aid because they can 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:53.880 like commit like, yeah, I can do something around supply, 0:33:54.120 --> 0:33:56.560 something around this, you know, whatever we like. How does 0:33:56.600 --> 0:34:01.000 one try to actually gauge what is trying to tackle? 0:34:01.480 --> 0:34:03.280 I guess it depends on whether you feel like you're 0:34:03.280 --> 0:34:07.719 totally Like if in my head, if I'm totally inside 0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:11.480 a nun Assie community, but an area, right, I probably 0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:14.319 kind of know because I'm also experiencing whatever the thing is. 0:34:14.920 --> 0:34:17.880 But if I'm if I'm a little bit detached from it, 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:20.080 then I do need to like do kind of you know. 0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:22.600 The sort of traditional method is I think it's called 0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:25.360 listening projects. I've never actually personally done a listening project. 0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:28.040 I've been around many people who do. Where you basically 0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:31.399 like sometimes you go door to door and you're like, hey, 0:34:31.440 --> 0:34:33.319 what's up, Like what do you need? Like what's going on? 0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:36.040 You know? Um, But like say, for example, in the 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:38.880 area that I live, there is a a rural organizing. 0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:41.360 It's not the actual rural organizing project, which is a 0:34:41.360 --> 0:34:44.960 specific structure. But there is a rural mutual aid group 0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:48.520 in the largely red area that I live in that's 0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:54.160 run by by leftists and they, I think that largely 0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:56.880 they did a lot of like firewood delivery, for example, 0:34:56.920 --> 0:34:59.280 because a lot of the areas around here are heated 0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:01.279 by woodstove. And you have a lot of poverty in 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:04.279 rural areas. And of course poverty looks very different in 0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:07.480 rural areas versus urban areas. And you know, one of 0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:11.239 the advantages of being rural poor. There's many disadvantages, like 0:35:11.280 --> 0:35:14.759 lack of access to certain types of services, right, Um, 0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:17.799 But one of the sometimes advantages of rural poverty, as 0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:21.839 I understand it, I'm not specifically an expert, um, is 0:35:22.440 --> 0:35:25.040 do you have space? Right? You just don't have stuff 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:27.760 for money, and so you can have stuff if people 0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:29.960 give you stuff, so you can like story your firewood 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:33.440 and so. And then also because it's this very specific 0:35:33.480 --> 0:35:35.759 tangible thing, people can get really excited about, like, oh, 0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:39.080 I can chop firewood, or maybe even I can't chop 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:41.120 firewood because my legs busted because I work in the 0:35:41.160 --> 0:35:43.600 paper mill or whatever, but I can. But I got 0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:46.200 a trailer on my truck, you know, um, and I 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:48.439 can haul that. And people get really excited when there's 0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:51.799 like things that they specifically are good at, especially things 0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:53.760 that I kind of have alienated them from other people 0:35:54.440 --> 0:35:57.000 that they're that they're good at, that they can then 0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:02.919 participate in. And so, which isn't totally answer your question, 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:05.239 but I would say if anyone specifically is in a 0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:07.399 rural situation is looking to start a mutual a group, 0:36:07.760 --> 0:36:10.680 look at the Rural Organizing Project. Yes, I don't believe 0:36:10.680 --> 0:36:13.400 that they specifically do rural mutual aid organizing, but they 0:36:13.440 --> 0:36:15.879 talk a lot about what it means to be an 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:19.319 organizer within areas that are largely controlled by the far right, 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.279 but are not. It's not like the people are all 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:25.279 far right, they're just controlled by the far right, you know. Yeah, 0:36:25.320 --> 0:36:28.040 the people actually there, once you talk to them, might 0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:32.440 actually be a lot more reasonable than like the media 0:36:32.520 --> 0:36:35.399 influencers who are part of this you know, same thing. Yeah, 0:36:35.520 --> 0:36:37.600 and it is. It is one of those things. This 0:36:37.680 --> 0:36:39.680 is a topic we're drifting too. But it's when we 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:42.799 drift to regularly on this show, we're like, when I 0:36:42.840 --> 0:36:47.640 talk with conservatives, it's it's not uncommon that I can 0:36:47.719 --> 0:36:51.680 without especially if I don't start by mentioning anarchy, I 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:54.319 can get them to agree to a lot of the 0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:56.919 things I believe, which is like, yeah, maybe people don't 0:36:56.920 --> 0:36:59.560 need to be governed. Maybe that doesn't work out good. 0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:02.960 Maybe uh, politicians are corrupt and should have less power, 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:05.600 And like that doesn't mean that you're gonna you're gonna 0:37:05.640 --> 0:37:08.719 get them on the barricades with you. Um, because any 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:11.960 productive kind of relationship starts from like a base of 0:37:12.080 --> 0:37:17.480 shared interests and it's not a useless endeavor to engage 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:20.080 in kind of trying to subtly. You know, if you 0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:23.680 if you feel out people around you who are ideologically 0:37:23.719 --> 0:37:28.880 not particularly similar to you, but also decent people, Um, 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:32.600 you can kind of try and work in some some 0:37:32.600 --> 0:37:35.400 something you've not not just some common ground, but you 0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:37.760 can try and get them to see that they agree 0:37:37.760 --> 0:37:39.880 with you one more than they think, um, and that 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:42.680 that has an effect of changing the way people think 0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:46.319 about the world. It really does. Yeah, and you but 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:48.920 you also have to go into it open to yes, 0:37:49.440 --> 0:37:51.239 maybe maybe it's not going to change your opinion about 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:53.040 the way the economy should be structured or the way 0:37:53.080 --> 0:37:56.279 that sure works, right, but you know, you definitely have 0:37:56.360 --> 0:37:59.960 to go into it with a I can now understand 0:38:00.120 --> 0:38:03.160 why you drive a big pickup truck that burns a 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.239 lot of gas or whatever whatever thing. You might be 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:11.319 coming into it thinking yeah, or at least it might 0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:15.320 help you understand why they believe or do certain things 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:19.240 outside of you know, Dave Reuben broke their brain because 0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:22.720 they got on YouTube at the wrong time. I don't know, Margaret, 0:38:22.760 --> 0:38:24.439 did you have anything else you wanted to really get into. 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:27.040 I guess to. One of the other questions that you 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:29.440 all brought up was about preparedness, like maybe kind of 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:32.680 almost in the inverse situation where let's say that you 0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:35.279 live in a small apartment and you want to be 0:38:35.360 --> 0:38:39.120 prepared and in which case maybe you have better access 0:38:39.120 --> 0:38:40.919 to community. Maybe you don't write a lot of people 0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:43.040 who live in the city are just as isolated socially 0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:46.000 as people elsewhere, But at least you kind of have, 0:38:46.120 --> 0:38:50.200 like there's a little bit more easy access to ways 0:38:50.239 --> 0:38:52.759 to break out of certain types of isolation if you 0:38:52.800 --> 0:38:54.520 put work into it, because there's more likely to be 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:57.000 groups around that are that are public that you can 0:38:57.000 --> 0:39:01.279 go interface with. Um. But in terms of like actual preparedness, 0:39:01.280 --> 0:39:03.359 you have the inverse problem, right of if you live 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:05.919 rural you might have room to store beans and rice, 0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:10.320 and if you live in the city you might not write. Um, 0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:12.719 but I I will say it's the other thing that 0:39:12.760 --> 0:39:15.359 I find people The two things that people talk to 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:18.200 me about I think you all run into also is 0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:21.120 that people are either I don't have any community or 0:39:21.239 --> 0:39:24.560 I don't have any money in space. Yeah. And so 0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:27.120 if you don't have any money in space, I mean, 0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:28.719 I mean in some ways, it's like, well, maybe your 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:32.360 focus isn't like stockpiling stuff. Stockpiling and stuff is like 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:37.080 the single most overrated part of individual or community preparedness. Um. 0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:40.040 I mean I do it, but you know it's because 0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:45.560 I M my brain works that way. Um. But also 0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:48.800 the level of like stuff that you might be looking 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:51.239 for might be a lot less than like, like you know, 0:39:51.239 --> 0:39:53.759 it's like prepper media is filled with like here's how 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:58.319 to build a bunk or under your pool, and I'm like, what, Yeah, 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:02.120 there's there's so many levels mean, somebody other things that 0:40:02.160 --> 0:40:06.160 you should be doing before you go to that stitch. Yeah. Yeah, 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:07.279 I mean, like, don't get me wrong, if I had 0:40:07.280 --> 0:40:09.239 a pool, I'd be stoked. And if I had absolutely, 0:40:09.960 --> 0:40:13.960 I'd be even more stoked. I'd be so happy. Yeah. 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:16.160 But but you know what it's like, it's the first 0:40:17.160 --> 0:40:20.719 five gallon bucket of like dried food you store is 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:24.839 far and away more important than the tent, right, and like, 0:40:25.400 --> 0:40:29.600 so just having a five gallon jerry can ful of 0:40:29.600 --> 0:40:31.279 water so that you're like, you know, what, if the 0:40:31.320 --> 0:40:33.520 water turns off or we have a boil advisory, which 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:38.719 happens all the time, I'm good for a couple of days, right, 0:40:38.960 --> 0:40:41.600 Because most of the time people think about preparedness as like, 0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:44.200 I'm preparing for the end times, and usually what it 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:46.800 is is the end times are real slow and chunky 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:51.279 and crumbles, that's the word. Um. And so you're just 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:53.560 really looking to like smooth out interruptions, and a lot 0:40:53.600 --> 0:40:56.200 of that can be done very cheaply and honestly, when 0:40:56.280 --> 0:40:58.759 when you start storing your fifth five gallon jerry can 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.279 of water, you're not storying it for you anymore. You're 0:41:01.320 --> 0:41:03.760 storying it for your neighbor. Yea, yeah, And that's good, 0:41:03.840 --> 0:41:07.279 but not exactly not the first step, you know. Yeah, 0:41:07.280 --> 0:41:10.040 it's it's better to prepare for if you have like 0:41:10.160 --> 0:41:12.480 a week's worth of power outages or a week's worth 0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:15.000 of the water not working right, And those are more 0:41:15.000 --> 0:41:17.400 incremental steps because we're not just gonna drop off and 0:41:17.440 --> 0:41:20.479 have no water forever starting in a month, right, Probably not, 0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:25.120 but we mean very like there's gonna be there's enough 0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:28.040 remaining systems that that they want to fix it. You know, 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:31.200 it's more likely that some some disasters gonna happen that 0:41:31.239 --> 0:41:34.400 we're gonna have, you know, a week worth of stuff gone, 0:41:34.560 --> 0:41:37.600 you know, and that's the thing that's actually more more 0:41:37.640 --> 0:41:44.680 reasonable to prep for. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, well, Margaret, 0:41:44.800 --> 0:41:47.520 where can Where can the good people and hopefully not 0:41:47.600 --> 0:41:51.000 the bad people, but statistically some of them will suck 0:41:51.160 --> 0:41:55.520 find you? Um, the good people can find me on 0:41:55.719 --> 0:41:57.560 I have a podcast called Like the World Is Dying, 0:41:57.760 --> 0:41:59.759 which they can listen to you on if they would like, 0:42:00.320 --> 0:42:04.560 and it's about individual community preparedness. I also am on 0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:07.719 Twitter way too much, at Magpie kill Joy, Instagram, at 0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:11.520 Margaret Killjoy, my websites Birds before the Storm dot net 0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:13.680 or Margaret Killjoy dot com and that has like a 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:16.000 list of all the books that I have out And 0:42:16.080 --> 0:42:18.839 I have a new book, an old book being reissued 0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:22.239 that is coming out in November from a k Press. 0:42:22.440 --> 0:42:24.319 The book is called A Country of Ghosts and it's 0:42:24.320 --> 0:42:26.560 an anarchist utopian book because I was sick of people 0:42:26.560 --> 0:42:28.759 being like but how would an anarchist society work? And 0:42:28.800 --> 0:42:30.000 I was like, you know what, I wrote a book, 0:42:30.840 --> 0:42:34.000 damn straight. Um. It also has a plot, so it's 0:42:34.040 --> 0:42:41.879 not fancy kind of bougie with yours. If you write 0:42:41.880 --> 0:42:46.720 a plot, you get the wall. Plots allowed only post 0:42:46.840 --> 0:42:50.160 structural literature. Well, okay, so this has actually happened to 0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:57.840 anarchist fiction writers before Buds of Mara was this anarchist 0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:02.680 fiction writer. Um oh, I can't remember where from I'm 0:43:02.680 --> 0:43:06.280 gonna this is terribly embarrassing. But he moved to England 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:11.719 from a colonized African country. Uma, what did Rhodesia become? 0:43:11.800 --> 0:43:15.839 This is the most embarrassing. So it became a Zimbabwe right, Okay? Yeah, yeah, 0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:18.880 so he was from there and then everyone and he 0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:21.719 moved to London until he realized that they're a bunch 0:43:21.760 --> 0:43:24.160 of racists and he would like breaksh it at awards 0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:26.759 ceremonies and then go back home. But he was a 0:43:26.760 --> 0:43:28.760 squatter for a while in the eighties, but he wasn't 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:33.560 writing in the proper post colonial like Marxist realist tradition, 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:37.520 because instead he was writing postmodern fiction, which is stuck, 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:40.040 get it and terrible. So he just like was like, 0:43:40.400 --> 0:43:44.440 I don't care, and so he's great. That is that 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:50.400 is anyway, I love to see it. Um, that's the episode. 0:43:50.520 --> 0:43:59.160 That's the episode go out and right, postmodern destruc jump 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:02.279 on a train. But that too, Yeah, probably also a 0:44:02.320 --> 0:44:04.279 bad idea. I talked to somebody who lost their legs 0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:21.840 doing that once. Anyway, episodes over welcome this is it 0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:26.080 could happen here daily. Uh. This week we are focusing 0:44:26.160 --> 0:44:29.319 on different ways to actually start doing things. You know, 0:44:29.440 --> 0:44:32.560 we've talked a lot about ideas, and we like you know, 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:36.399 made some broad recommendations um and you know, had people 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:38.959 on to give specific insights and you know, different things. 0:44:39.400 --> 0:44:42.600 But we're trying to focus this week and then you 0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:44.879 know more in the future. Is like, if you're brand 0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:47.080 new to this sort of thing, how to actually start 0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:50.080 doing stuff. And one of the things we talked about 0:44:50.120 --> 0:44:52.080 a lot is a lot of almost everyone we've interviewed 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:55.520 has mentioned us at some point that trying to get 0:44:55.520 --> 0:45:00.279 more active in the things you're consuming and the things 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:02.160 that you're eating. And one of the ways to do 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:06.400 that is by just literally growing your own food. I 0:45:06.480 --> 0:45:09.960 went when I was growing up, I mean my grandparents operate, 0:45:10.520 --> 0:45:12.400 I mean like they stop right like like like like 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:15.080 a large, large farm. Now they operate kind of like 0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:18.120 a farm that just like feeds them. So whenever I'm 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:21.000 at my grandparents in Canada, usually we you know, we 0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:22.840 just eat all the food they grow, whether that be 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:26.200 like produce. Um. They also do like their own hunting, 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:29.240 They make their own sausage, like you know, they preserve meats. 0:45:29.640 --> 0:45:32.160 So like, I kind of grew up around this type 0:45:32.160 --> 0:45:36.719 of thing because just how self reliant some of my 0:45:36.760 --> 0:45:39.799 family is. But not everyone may have this kind of background, 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:41.879 and so you know, this idea of growing your own 0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:45.799 food can feel maybe a little bit daunting. Um. And 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:48.560 to help us talk about food and then eventually soil 0:45:48.640 --> 0:45:52.479 and other kind of things, I have invited a guest 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:57.000 on from another kind of podcast in this that operates 0:45:57.000 --> 0:46:00.600 in the same rough, rough framework, I would say, probably 0:46:00.640 --> 0:46:03.520 are how to how to kind of slowly improve improve 0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:07.480 the world? Um uh do I won't explain who you 0:46:07.480 --> 0:46:10.840 are and what's your what your what your project is? Sure? 0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:14.040 So my name is Andy. I'm the post of The 0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:18.360 Poor Pole's Almanac. We're a podcast that's focused on thinking 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.560 about after collapse, how do we things like climate change 0:46:21.560 --> 0:46:24.560 and collapse impact things like food systems, and what can 0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:30.720 we do today to prepare for what's coming in the future. Yeah, 0:46:30.760 --> 0:46:34.239 I feel like it's not not a coincidence that all 0:46:34.280 --> 0:46:39.400 of these different kind of projects are getting more popular 0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:41.640 around the same time, because we're looking at the world 0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:45.120 and being like, huh, this doesn't seem very sustainable, so 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:47.839 we better we better start figuring out what to do 0:46:47.960 --> 0:46:52.640 with all these systems kind of slowly, you know, start 0:46:52.880 --> 0:46:55.439 losing parts. I want to talk about kind of food today. 0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:58.160 I want to want to maybe branch off into like 0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:02.160 a few different directions. Branch that's a plant plant plant 0:47:02.280 --> 0:47:06.960 pun um, what a branch off in a few different directions, 0:47:07.000 --> 0:47:08.759 both like you know, what do you do if you 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:10.759 have like your own house and yard, or maybe you're 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:13.080 like more ruled you have lots of space, and then 0:47:13.080 --> 0:47:15.319 also kind of the inverse of like let's say you 0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:17.280 lived in, like I don know, a cramped city apartment. 0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:19.640 Different things that you can do. Let's probably start with 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:21.839 like the rule just to like give a you know, 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:25.200 a more like base background. You know, you have more 0:47:25.239 --> 0:47:27.399 of like a standard set up for what you're able 0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:31.320 to do. If someone's never grown anything before, they've never 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:33.680 like maybe they've had like one house plant, but like 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:36.480 they've never grown anything. What what do you think is 0:47:36.520 --> 0:47:39.480 the best first like preparation steps before you actually you know, 0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:43.080 go and start buying seeds and stuff. Sure, so when 0:47:43.080 --> 0:47:46.719 it comes to growing food, it's really not that complicated. 0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:49.520 Chances are if you have a front yard we're talking 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:52.880 about someplace that's pretty rural, assuming that climate is in 0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:55.839 someplace super dry, you're generally going to be thinking about 0:47:55.880 --> 0:48:00.520 growing food someplace where grass probably already grows. So if 0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:02.719 grass is already grown there, you know things can grow there. 0:48:03.200 --> 0:48:06.960 And really that's that's as simple as it can be. 0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:10.040 It can be more complicated. We can start talking about 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:13.080 things like soil pH and nutrients and all of these 0:48:13.080 --> 0:48:15.560 other things, but really, when it comes down to it, 0:48:15.760 --> 0:48:17.120 if you put a seed in the ground and the 0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:20.080 temperature is not too warm or cold, and it gets 0:48:20.160 --> 0:48:22.600 rained but not too much rain, the plant's going to grow. 0:48:23.239 --> 0:48:26.840 And if you've got some say a couple of acres, 0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:28.759 and you want to cut out a little section of 0:48:28.760 --> 0:48:31.760 it to grow some food. Uh that that's as simple 0:48:31.800 --> 0:48:34.880 as it really can be. And you can go to 0:48:35.120 --> 0:48:38.120 whatever store and buy seats. So like that, that's a 0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:41.080 good place to start. And obviously depending on where you live, 0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:43.319 you want to think about things like lead in the 0:48:43.480 --> 0:48:46.400 in the soil if you live someplace near an old house, 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:49.400 or maybe if you're near some place where there was manufacturing. 0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:51.680 And one of the things to keep in mind is 0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:54.560 that a lot of older settlements, even if there isn't 0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:57.960 a factory there now, it's very possible there was a 0:48:58.000 --> 0:49:02.080 factory years ago it's been demoed and you never even 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:04.359 knew was there. So it's really important if you do 0:49:04.400 --> 0:49:07.719 live in someplace that has that manufacturing background or an 0:49:07.719 --> 0:49:10.120 old house to really check for things like lead in 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:14.120 the soil because that can be really dangerous. And there's yeah, 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:18.880 a very accessible like soil testing kits available that stares 0:49:18.960 --> 0:49:21.880 on online. Okay, yeah, it's like I think fifteen dollars. 0:49:21.920 --> 0:49:24.839 You can have soil sample taken and you can find 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:28.160 out everything that's in it, just like the pH and 0:49:28.280 --> 0:49:30.759 you know if it's too acidic and things like that. 0:49:31.200 --> 0:49:33.719 So yeah, you you figure out you want to you 0:49:33.719 --> 0:49:36.040 want to start growing stuff you have you have some space, 0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:37.920 whether it be like a front yard or maybe like 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:41.480 even like an open field if you're lucky, Um, what 0:49:41.600 --> 0:49:44.040 kind of what kind of stuff do you think? You know? 0:49:44.239 --> 0:49:46.840 Should I just jump in and buy any kind of 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:49.440 seed that looks fun, or should I like start with 0:49:49.480 --> 0:49:52.040 specific things. I don't know. It's like if I really 0:49:52.120 --> 0:49:53.960 like potatoes, or just go to potatoes, if I really 0:49:54.000 --> 0:49:57.600 like cauliflowers, just to cauliflower. What's kind of the if 0:49:57.640 --> 0:49:59.759 I'm brand new, what's the different things that would be 0:49:59.760 --> 0:50:03.759 wor first drawing out? So generally speaking, you really want 0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:07.560 to think about what your climate is and I think 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:09.480 that's one of the things that gets missed a lot 0:50:09.520 --> 0:50:10.840 of times as you want to grow things. So like 0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:14.399 I live in New England, growing say, watermelon is really 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:17.000 a challenge in a lot of ways because you have 0:50:17.040 --> 0:50:19.360 to think about the length of my season versus the 0:50:19.440 --> 0:50:22.359 length it takes for a watermelon to be a full 0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:25.640 sized fruit for you to eat. So depending on where 0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:27.120 you live, the one thing you need to keep in 0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:30.200 mind is what that length of your season is. Now, 0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:32.520 to get back to the main subject that the podcast 0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:36.440 talking about, things like climate change and collapse. That season 0:50:36.520 --> 0:50:39.680 is changing rapidly. Right now. We're adding days, so the 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:43.480 seasons are getting longer, but also we're having weird cold 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:47.279 snaps later and later into spring, so what might have 0:50:47.320 --> 0:50:51.120 been a traditional season no longer really applies anymore. So 0:50:51.280 --> 0:50:53.440 if you're thinking about this is your first year, you 0:50:53.480 --> 0:50:55.880 don't want to grow anything that might be right at 0:50:55.880 --> 0:50:59.360 the cusp of um being in your season, Or you 0:50:59.400 --> 0:51:01.680 don't want to are plant inside and then have to 0:51:01.719 --> 0:51:03.800 move it outside and you have to know whether or 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:05.479 not it has a tap root and all these other 0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:07.720 things to make sure that you don't damage the plant. 0:51:08.160 --> 0:51:10.880 Then you definitely want to grow something with a shorter season, 0:51:11.440 --> 0:51:17.560 things like um. Cold weather plants, lettuces, broccolis, cauliflowers, things 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:20.640 like that will generally do pretty good in short seasons, 0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:24.760 but they don't really do well in really warm climates. 0:51:24.800 --> 0:51:27.319 So if you're in say Florida, it's gonna be really 0:51:27.320 --> 0:51:30.520 difficult UM. But that that's kind of how you want 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:32.839 to start thinking about those processes. Learning what the cold 0:51:32.920 --> 0:51:36.200 season plants are, what the warm season plants are, where 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:38.520 you fit in in terms of the zone that you 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:41.440 live within, and again starting to think about Okay, the 0:51:41.480 --> 0:51:43.760 last couple of years, when did we get the last frost? 0:51:44.200 --> 0:51:46.960 Because it's not what it might say ten years ago 0:51:47.040 --> 0:51:50.200 is your average last frost, Those days are pretty much gone. 0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:53.279 I know here in Portland we're currently growing a lot 0:51:53.320 --> 0:51:56.359 of potatoes and that's been that's been kind of our 0:51:56.520 --> 0:52:00.399 our our big haul. Also, tomatoes did very good this year, 0:52:00.640 --> 0:52:04.600 particularly because of our big heat domes they got we 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:06.920 got the tomatoes did so much better than what they 0:52:07.040 --> 0:52:10.000 what they usually do. We've like canned so many tomatoes 0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:13.080 just because we just we have so many more than 0:52:13.120 --> 0:52:15.920 what we're used to that I do find that interesting, 0:52:16.000 --> 0:52:20.320 being like, you know, climate change obviously being generally a 0:52:20.440 --> 0:52:23.640 net bad, but you know, in some cases for growing 0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:26.480 it's gonna make certain crops easier to grow, but you know, 0:52:26.520 --> 0:52:28.759 other crops will be harder to grow. It's something I 0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:31.200 wanted to talk more about in the first five heavily 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.239 scripted It could happen here season two episodes. It's like, 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:37.920 particularly how different growing regions are going to shift up 0:52:37.920 --> 0:52:39.960 and how like you know, Canada for instance, is going 0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:43.839 to have a lot more agriculture in the next years 0:52:43.880 --> 0:52:47.560 just because so many, so many climates are slowly inching upwards. 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:49.359 But you know, even in places like Georgia and other 0:52:49.400 --> 0:52:52.560 places where different if we know specific plants are growing, 0:52:52.760 --> 0:52:54.759 all that stuff is gonna be changing. Obviously, this is 0:52:54.800 --> 0:52:59.920 affecting coffee and how we're getting less and less it's 0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:02.640 based and land that's actually able to grow coffee because 0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:05.680 basically plants, you know, growers have to move their plants 0:53:05.760 --> 0:53:07.560 up a mountain every year in order to make the 0:53:07.600 --> 0:53:09.840 coffee actually work, which is why it's gonna We're just 0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:12.680 gonna run up the space. Um So, yeah, that is 0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:17.279 obviously the more negative sides of things California lack of 0:53:17.360 --> 0:53:21.000 rainwater and just and just lack of rain. Yeah absolutely, rain, 0:53:21.160 --> 0:53:24.160 yeah absolutely, And that brings up a really important point 0:53:24.600 --> 0:53:27.040 that you know, you're talking about moving the coffee trees 0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:30.279 further and further up a mountain as the areas that 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:35.600 are considered prime agricultural areas moves north for us, you 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:38.960 have to think about the infrastructural challenges that brings. So 0:53:39.000 --> 0:53:41.080 it's not just you're going to grow the crops in 0:53:41.120 --> 0:53:44.320 one place, but the infrastructure, the trains, all these different 0:53:44.320 --> 0:53:47.680 things don't exist in the places where you'll be able 0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:51.160 to grow those foods. So speaking of something you know 0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:53.960 around that rough kind of idea is like, if someone's 0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:56.680 never never done this before, they're out to go get stuff, 0:53:57.719 --> 0:54:01.239 where would you where would someone like that fine seeds? Um, 0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:03.080 Let's say that they don't let's say they don't use 0:54:03.080 --> 0:54:06.359 the internet's tons um whereabouts where you think they'll go 0:54:06.400 --> 0:54:08.719 and get cauliflower seeds or carrot seeds if they if 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:11.399 they want to start doing this stuff. Yeah, So there's 0:54:11.400 --> 0:54:14.680 a bunch of different growers that offer seeds. And one 0:54:14.680 --> 0:54:17.040 of the things to keep in mind with annuals is 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:19.160 that it does make sense if you can to buy 0:54:19.200 --> 0:54:22.880 them locally, because what within a couple of generations, plants 0:54:22.920 --> 0:54:27.400 will start evolving towards local conditions. It's it's really beneficial, 0:54:27.520 --> 0:54:30.040 especially with like I said, with climate change, to start 0:54:30.120 --> 0:54:33.320 thinking about how can we integrate our food systems into 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:36.920 the ecological conditions where we live, and that ecology includes 0:54:36.960 --> 0:54:40.560 the climate. So we have to continuously more thoughtfully start 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:43.400 thinking about these things and how we grow food and 0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:45.719 where those foods come from in order to really be 0:54:45.800 --> 0:54:48.560 able to deal with and mitigate the effects of climate change. 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:52.040 So a great resources Johnny's seed they do a lot 0:54:52.080 --> 0:54:55.880 of really good work and there they have good quality stuff. 0:54:56.400 --> 0:54:58.759 And there's a bunch of seed companies out there that 0:54:58.800 --> 0:55:01.919 have done some really problem matic stuff that I won't 0:55:01.920 --> 0:55:05.160 go into or talk about, but they're these guys, as 0:55:05.200 --> 0:55:07.680 far as I'm aware, are pretty good. So I would 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:12.440 definitely recommend them. Awesome. Yeah, their website is just Johnny 0:55:12.520 --> 0:55:14.960 Seeds dot com. Just for everyone who's looking that up 0:55:14.960 --> 0:55:17.880 at it's Johnny with a Y. Good for Johnny with 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:24.200 a Y. Great. All right, Let's now, let's say someone 0:55:24.560 --> 0:55:27.960 lives in a downtown apartment in a metropolitan area. They 0:55:28.000 --> 0:55:31.280 don't have immediate access to you know, tons of dirt 0:55:31.719 --> 0:55:34.759 or you know, grass, but they want to start kind 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:37.759 of growing some stuff. If if you were in that position, 0:55:37.880 --> 0:55:40.399 what would you start doing? And to that, I want 0:55:40.400 --> 0:55:43.440 to to part that that would be somebody with a 0:55:43.440 --> 0:55:45.600 balcony where they have access to like even like a 0:55:45.600 --> 0:55:49.280 little pattio area or those and then without yeah, sure, 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:51.879 So there's a bunch of different things you can do. 0:55:52.480 --> 0:55:55.680 Starting with if you have a balcony, you can start 0:55:55.719 --> 0:55:59.280 thinking about getting pots, filling them up with soil, amending 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:02.360 that soil is needed as you add plants, and again 0:56:02.800 --> 0:56:05.440 the general rule is to think about how big a 0:56:05.520 --> 0:56:07.839 plant gets, and how big a plant gets is how 0:56:07.880 --> 0:56:09.839 big its root system is going to get. I mean, 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:12.600 that's not accurate by any means, but it's just a 0:56:12.640 --> 0:56:15.080 good rule of thumb to think about as you're doing 0:56:15.120 --> 0:56:18.239 something like this, and you know, if you have a 0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:20.520 tiny pot, then something that gets big is not going 0:56:20.560 --> 0:56:22.880 to work. Might be better for a lettuce or whatever. 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:25.239 And there's a bunch of different places you can look 0:56:25.280 --> 0:56:28.240 online for how to grow things on balconies and things 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:31.120 like that. You can also, and this is really dependent 0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:34.359 on money, is start thinking about out things like grow lights, 0:56:34.400 --> 0:56:37.200 which really are not that complicated once you start learning 0:56:37.200 --> 0:56:40.560 a bit about them, hydroponics, which comes with their own 0:56:40.640 --> 0:56:43.239 challenges because at the end of the day, while it's 0:56:43.280 --> 0:56:44.880 nice to be able to grow food in your house, 0:56:45.200 --> 0:56:49.279 you're still relying on extractive processes. So you know your 0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:53.000 nutrients are coming from fossil fuel essentially, So that's just 0:56:53.080 --> 0:56:55.640 something to be aware of. It's probably still better than 0:56:56.040 --> 0:56:58.719 the alternative of buying food on the shelf, but it 0:56:58.800 --> 0:57:01.120 is something to be aware of in that process that 0:57:01.160 --> 0:57:05.520 it's not really a sustainable quote unquote practice, got it? 0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:08.799 And what are some of the go twos for a 0:57:08.840 --> 0:57:11.480 balcony garden that you would recommend for people that are 0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:15.279 just starting out. Definitely, those leafy greens are a good 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:18.520 place to start. They grow small, they have smaller roots systems. 0:57:19.560 --> 0:57:22.120 Most times, things like lettuces don't need a ton of 0:57:22.200 --> 0:57:25.240 sun to grow super well. As long as they get 0:57:25.240 --> 0:57:27.440 a decent amount, they'll be fine. They're not like a 0:57:27.480 --> 0:57:30.920 tomato that's gonna like be desperately looking for that that 0:57:31.080 --> 0:57:35.080 sun and that energy. So those smaller greens are generally 0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:39.200 a better option. Great. Yeah, I was able to grow 0:57:39.280 --> 0:57:42.240 kale and like a pot this of this winter and 0:57:42.280 --> 0:57:45.600 it was great. Yeah, Kale is a great one here 0:57:45.600 --> 0:57:47.919 in New England. It's really nice because you can grow 0:57:47.960 --> 0:57:50.280 it under glass during the winter, so even if you 0:57:50.360 --> 0:57:52.880 get a cold spell, it will stay just warm enough 0:57:52.920 --> 0:57:57.200 to make it pretty much throughout the winter. All right, Now, 0:57:57.360 --> 0:58:00.360 I have no balcony. I only have, you know, two 0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:03.200 small windows, you know I have. I have like a 0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:04.919 counter and stuff, you know, I can like can set 0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:09.080 up stuff, but I do not have tons of outdoor access. 0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:12.200 But I I would like to stop buying dil every 0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:13.960 time I go to the store, because I use it 0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:16.959 in my homemade ranch dressing. Now can I just buy 0:58:17.000 --> 0:58:20.360 those like pre pre podded stuff and just water them 0:58:20.440 --> 0:58:22.360 or kind of like if if if I want to 0:58:22.400 --> 0:58:24.280 get more in depth, what are they? You know, some 0:58:24.320 --> 0:58:28.200 things that are beyond that, but not you know, making this, 0:58:28.360 --> 0:58:31.919 you know, making this giant set up. So you could 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:38.240 be creative and do something that's less than eagle. And 0:58:38.480 --> 0:58:42.440 there's this practice known as guerrilla gardening. I was I 0:58:42.480 --> 0:58:45.960 was gonna mention girly grillly gardening soon. Yeah. Sure, So 0:58:46.160 --> 0:58:48.720 this is like something that works really well, and there's 0:58:48.720 --> 0:58:50.720 a bunch of different ways you can do it, and 0:58:50.760 --> 0:58:53.760 it really depends on your local conditions and what can 0:58:53.840 --> 0:58:55.720 grow out in the wild and needs a lot of 0:58:55.720 --> 0:58:59.360 maintenance and what doesn't. And I don't know the Pacific 0:58:59.400 --> 0:59:02.160 Northwest a well, but it is warm enough that I 0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:04.080 think theyll would probably do fine, and it is wet 0:59:04.200 --> 0:59:06.760 enough that bill would probably do fine. So you could 0:59:06.800 --> 0:59:09.680 just go anywhere where there's green space that nobody checks 0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:12.919 things and just drop some plants in. You could start 0:59:12.960 --> 0:59:15.280 seedlings in your house and bring them where you want 0:59:15.280 --> 0:59:17.720 to harvest it later, and it's on your walk to 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:20.920 work or where you get coffee or whatever. Drop it 0:59:20.920 --> 0:59:23.240 in the ground, make sure the roots are you know, 0:59:23.360 --> 0:59:25.920 not bound up, and make sure it's got a nice 0:59:25.920 --> 0:59:27.720 watered wrench right when you put it in the ground 0:59:27.760 --> 0:59:31.200 so it starts adjusting. And that's you know, that's that's 0:59:31.240 --> 0:59:34.320 the first step in something as simple as gerla agriculture. 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:37.160 One of the first things that we tried to do 0:59:37.200 --> 0:59:40.400 when I got kind of started in you know, the 0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:44.240 you know Portland's kind of more lefty seed was you know, 0:59:44.320 --> 0:59:48.960 ideas for you know, building a community garden somewhere. And yeah, 0:59:49.040 --> 0:59:52.240 because there is just a lot of dirt, especially like 0:59:52.360 --> 0:59:55.560 Portland's specifically lucky just because we just have so much 0:59:55.600 --> 0:59:58.560 green space. Uh, there's a lot of places to to 0:59:58.640 --> 1:00:02.480 start grill gardening. Just start doing our own little community garden. 1:00:03.400 --> 1:00:08.400 Do you do you have any alleged experience in guerrilla gardening. Yes, 1:00:09.240 --> 1:00:12.440 So if you're on Instagram, I post a bit about 1:00:12.480 --> 1:00:15.360 some of the guerrilla gardening stuff that I do. UM. 1:00:15.400 --> 1:00:20.560 I generally focus on guerrilla gardening, not necessarily for my 1:00:20.640 --> 1:00:24.960 own consumption, but more for ecological mitigation for damage from 1:00:25.160 --> 1:00:28.320 um clear cutting and things like that. So I go 1:00:28.360 --> 1:00:30.200 out and try to plant things that are native to 1:00:30.240 --> 1:00:32.919 regions and try to bring them back a little bit. 1:00:33.480 --> 1:00:35.920 So that's one of the challenges that we see here 1:00:35.920 --> 1:00:39.000 on the East Coast is not only are our cities 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:42.000 not really designed with green space and mind and for 1:00:42.240 --> 1:00:44.880 community gardens, I almost never recommend them just because in 1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:48.480 places like Boston they're hard to get into and a 1:00:48.520 --> 1:00:50.320 lot of major cities like you can be on wait 1:00:50.360 --> 1:00:54.480 lists for years, So that's not really a short term 1:00:54.520 --> 1:00:56.800 solution or a solution for a lot of people that 1:00:56.840 --> 1:01:00.320 are rather transient where you might move communities every three 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:04.360 or four or five years. Um. So like guerrilla gardening 1:01:04.400 --> 1:01:07.280 works really great for those folks because you can do 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:09.840 it when you want and how you want. Nothing says 1:01:09.920 --> 1:01:14.760 community like a waitlist, right No. Like, in terms of 1:01:14.800 --> 1:01:17.000 community gardens, I think you know, there's been a lot 1:01:17.040 --> 1:01:19.400 of people asking about how they get involved in mutual 1:01:19.440 --> 1:01:21.560 aiden stuff, especially if they don't have like friends or 1:01:21.560 --> 1:01:24.720 like they don't have many friends or connections to activism. 1:01:25.160 --> 1:01:27.360 I think one of the best ways to start anything 1:01:27.360 --> 1:01:29.480 like that is just all you need is like yourself 1:01:29.520 --> 1:01:31.400 and maybe one or two other people that you know 1:01:31.920 --> 1:01:34.120 to just start a community garden somewhere. And that's a 1:01:34.280 --> 1:01:38.640 very very nice on ramp into like community organizing. Absolutely 1:01:38.960 --> 1:01:41.760 back in Portland when I used to live in the Southwest, 1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:45.480 there was there's just whole like community plots that are 1:01:45.520 --> 1:01:49.800 like you know, more like official but still pretty like decentralized. 1:01:50.120 --> 1:01:52.040 That you could just basically go up to one of 1:01:52.080 --> 1:01:54.360 the bank at plots and just start planting food in 1:01:54.360 --> 1:01:57.280 this community setting, and like once a month all of 1:01:57.320 --> 1:01:59.600 the different gardeners would like get together and talk about 1:01:59.640 --> 1:02:02.240 what their going and stuff, and they you know, could 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:06.280 trade produce. Be like I'm growing I'm growing pumpkins, You're 1:02:06.360 --> 1:02:08.880 growing butternut squash. I want one of your squash. I 1:02:08.920 --> 1:02:10.920 want one of your pumpkins. Right, you can like that 1:02:11.000 --> 1:02:13.560 kind of stuff. Um or if you know, if you 1:02:13.640 --> 1:02:15.960 end up having with having like a larger hole, you 1:02:15.960 --> 1:02:18.520 can just give it out to random people. It turns 1:02:18.520 --> 1:02:22.680 out people might like receiving fresh produce. That could be 1:02:22.880 --> 1:02:25.440 another way of making friends and making connections. If you're 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:27.680 kind of isolated in the city and you only have 1:02:27.720 --> 1:02:31.120 one or two other people, you can't start start a 1:02:31.160 --> 1:02:35.040 new community garden somewhere in the city just like scope 1:02:35.040 --> 1:02:39.040 out of spot, start growing and then and to speak 1:02:39.080 --> 1:02:40.880 to that you know, One of the things is that 1:02:40.920 --> 1:02:43.360 if you act like your official and you're supposed to 1:02:43.360 --> 1:02:45.040 be there and you know you're supposed to be there, 1:02:45.280 --> 1:02:47.880 people generally don't really question you, especially when it comes 1:02:47.880 --> 1:02:51.440 to plants. Like if I go to like a median 1:02:51.520 --> 1:02:53.760 and go plant some trees, Like as long as I 1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:56.640 act like I know what I'm doing and like don't 1:02:56.640 --> 1:02:58.919 look like I'm trying to be sneaky, no one ever 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:01.439 questions me. And that's the key thing, is to really 1:03:01.440 --> 1:03:03.840 make it clear that like, you know you're supposed to 1:03:03.880 --> 1:03:07.600 be there when whenever I eventually I'll put together an 1:03:07.640 --> 1:03:10.360 episode on like urban stealth and stuff. And there's nothing 1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:14.120 more powerful than like a hive is vest just an 1:03:14.400 --> 1:03:18.160 incredibly powerful tool for making people glaze over you and 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:21.040 think you're a professional. It's a music or in this case, 1:03:21.120 --> 1:03:23.160 like when I'm doing what I do, you know, I'll 1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:26.920 borrow someone's old beat up pickup truck and throw a 1:03:27.000 --> 1:03:29.040 couple of big trees in the back, and like you 1:03:29.080 --> 1:03:30.400 see that pulled over on the side of the road 1:03:30.400 --> 1:03:32.760 with its hazard lights on, Nobody's going to question that. 1:03:32.800 --> 1:03:34.800 It's like a town or a city, and if somebody 1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:36.760 from the town shows up as I'm from the DPW 1:03:36.920 --> 1:03:42.760 or whatever. Yeah, there's it's incredibly incredibly useful. Um and yeah, 1:03:42.760 --> 1:03:44.680 but like getting to know you know, if you're like 1:03:44.800 --> 1:03:46.320 I don't know where to find a local you know, 1:03:46.360 --> 1:03:48.280 I don't know how to like where I would pick 1:03:48.320 --> 1:03:51.120 a local community garden spot, be like you should like 1:03:51.280 --> 1:03:53.400 get to know your local area. It's in another great 1:03:53.400 --> 1:03:56.280 way of figuring out how to start doing any mutulate 1:03:56.400 --> 1:03:58.360 or anything. It's like, you need to know where you 1:03:58.440 --> 1:04:01.120 live and like, what's what's around you? Who others who 1:04:01.200 --> 1:04:03.200 you know? Maybe in your search to find the community 1:04:03.240 --> 1:04:05.880 garden you might find one that already exists. If you're 1:04:05.960 --> 1:04:08.440 unfamiliar with your you know, with if you're in a 1:04:08.480 --> 1:04:11.080 metropolitan area or if you're more out in the middle 1:04:11.080 --> 1:04:13.640 of nowhere, you may not know what's around you. And 1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:16.320 I mean looking out to see what's actually in the 1:04:16.360 --> 1:04:18.880 community is one of the first big steps to have 1:04:18.920 --> 1:04:22.200 any kind of and that plays out also in ecology. 1:04:22.360 --> 1:04:24.760 So you know, if you're in a city, most cities 1:04:24.760 --> 1:04:29.120 have public forest parks, whatever it might be. And part 1:04:29.120 --> 1:04:31.800 of not knowing what's around you, or knowing rather what's 1:04:31.800 --> 1:04:34.640 around you is starting to identify the plants that are 1:04:34.680 --> 1:04:37.720 already around you. And while there's been a lot of 1:04:37.760 --> 1:04:41.320 action in terms of thinking about things like foraging, UM, 1:04:41.360 --> 1:04:44.479 there's there's a ton of opportunity for us to start 1:04:44.520 --> 1:04:47.120 looking at foods that we don't traditionally think of foods 1:04:47.120 --> 1:04:52.880 but produce a ton of calories. So something like oaks. 1:04:52.880 --> 1:04:55.800 Oaks are across the United States. I don't think there's 1:04:55.800 --> 1:04:58.840 any state without oak trees and acorns can be a 1:04:58.920 --> 1:05:01.240 huge part of anyone's die if they're willing to take 1:05:01.240 --> 1:05:03.280 the time and more and about them. And that's not 1:05:03.360 --> 1:05:06.160 something that's radical or anything. It's something that's been done 1:05:06.200 --> 1:05:09.760 for thousands of years. It's just in in our lifetime, 1:05:10.040 --> 1:05:13.520 in our parents lifetime, that that knowledge and that experience 1:05:13.560 --> 1:05:16.920 has been mostly lost. But it's not something that's weird 1:05:17.080 --> 1:05:21.919 or unaccessible or any of those types of things. Absolutely, UM, 1:05:22.240 --> 1:05:24.880 I think this is actually a decent cutting off point 1:05:24.960 --> 1:05:28.320 for this episode and then the next in in in 1:05:28.320 --> 1:05:30.480 the In the next episode in the feed here we 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:35.080 will focus more on ecology UM books, more on soil, 1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:37.080 and maybe get into like permaculture and some other kind 1:05:37.080 --> 1:05:39.520 of stuff because I would love to learn more about 1:05:39.560 --> 1:05:43.800 you know, specific soil stuff and you know different, you 1:05:43.800 --> 1:05:46.960 know more insight to our current like growing situation overall 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:49.240 as like a country and how you know stuff is changing. 1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:52.600 But um, would you like to plug anything really to 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:55.200 you or any other like resources on this topic before 1:05:55.240 --> 1:05:59.040 we head out? Absolutely so we are a podcast. Go 1:05:59.200 --> 1:06:02.880 check us out prols dot com or Spotify. Wherever you're 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:05.200 listening to this podcast, you can go check out some 1:06:05.280 --> 1:06:07.920 of our work. We're also on Instagram and Facebook like 1:06:07.960 --> 1:06:12.840 everyone else, and you can go follow us over there. Fantastic. Um. 1:06:12.880 --> 1:06:14.440 If you want to keep up to date on stuff 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:17.160 for this show, you can follow cool Zone cool Zone 1:06:17.200 --> 1:06:20.360 Media and Happen Here pod on Twitter and Instagram and 1:06:20.440 --> 1:06:22.640 you can catch more It could happen here daily in 1:06:22.720 --> 1:06:46.800 this feed. Uh, see you tomorrow. Bye, It's soil tom Hello, 1:06:46.920 --> 1:06:51.240 welcome to it could happen here. We're talking about we're 1:06:51.240 --> 1:06:55.720 talking about dirt today, big big, big dirt fans here. 1:06:55.920 --> 1:06:59.640 We love, we love dirt, we love soil. Um And 1:06:59.760 --> 1:07:03.000 to help us talk about soil, dirt, ecology, growing for 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:07.960 forging all of this kind of stuff, we have Andy 1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:11.760 from the Poor Pearl's Almanac podcast about you know what 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:15.280 to do after you know stuff kind of crumbles away 1:07:15.320 --> 1:07:18.200 slowly kind of kind of like kind of like our podcast. Um, 1:07:18.560 --> 1:07:22.480 and we're not like our soil hopefully. Well I got 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:25.520 some bad news for you there. Some of us are 1:07:25.520 --> 1:07:28.200 not great at cultivating soil, which is what we are 1:07:28.200 --> 1:07:31.200 talking about today is how to avoid getting a lot 1:07:31.200 --> 1:07:33.680 of void, Like, how can we help help against our 1:07:33.720 --> 1:07:38.760 soil just blowing away? Um? Yeah, that is that is 1:07:38.800 --> 1:07:40.840 That is our discussion. I I wrapped up like a 1:07:40.880 --> 1:07:46.320 week of research on California specific climate and drought and 1:07:46.360 --> 1:07:48.920 what all the farmers are doing. Um, and a lot 1:07:48.960 --> 1:07:51.320 of their soil is blowing away and so far their 1:07:51.360 --> 1:07:53.600 solution to that is just spray more water on it, 1:07:53.800 --> 1:07:57.680 which the problem is there's not tons of water. Um, 1:07:57.760 --> 1:08:02.080 so let's talk about dirt. Let's talk about soil. I 1:08:02.120 --> 1:08:05.680 will hand it over to the residents. Soy boy, the 1:08:05.760 --> 1:08:09.240 soil expert here, because I don't know what I'm talking 1:08:09.280 --> 1:08:12.440 about with dirt. My puns are getting famous, I know 1:08:12.560 --> 1:08:15.280 I have. That was that was just that I was 1:08:15.320 --> 1:08:17.880 just ripping, ripping off of a title of one of 1:08:17.880 --> 1:08:22.040 his episodes. So that's not original. Blame him for the pond. Sorry, 1:08:22.080 --> 1:08:26.839 I do that a lot. So in terms of building soil. 1:08:27.080 --> 1:08:31.840 There's it's really a basic idea of how to do it, 1:08:32.080 --> 1:08:35.479 and it generally comes down to understanding what a soil 1:08:35.560 --> 1:08:38.840 needs and how to let the soil build through rest 1:08:39.600 --> 1:08:42.720 and generally speaking, when we plant our annual crops, what 1:08:42.840 --> 1:08:45.000 happens is you put your tomato plants in the ground, 1:08:45.080 --> 1:08:48.559 whatever it might be. You've got a great harvest, you 1:08:48.560 --> 1:08:51.080 you know, let them die, clear them out, and then 1:08:51.120 --> 1:08:54.040 the next year maybe you throw some more compost on it, 1:08:54.120 --> 1:08:56.479 or maybe you're like, I just don't want time, I 1:08:56.479 --> 1:08:58.280 won't do it, and you'll grow and you might have 1:08:58.320 --> 1:09:00.880 a pretty decent crop again. Then usually by like the 1:09:00.920 --> 1:09:02.880 third year, you start to notice that your plants just 1:09:02.920 --> 1:09:05.600 aren't doing as well, like all the nutrients and the 1:09:05.600 --> 1:09:07.920 minerals have started to get taken out of the soil. 1:09:08.400 --> 1:09:11.880 So you can either continuously add new material to it, 1:09:11.920 --> 1:09:15.720 which comes from somewhere doesn't seem very sustainable. Yeah, it's 1:09:15.760 --> 1:09:19.320 absolutely not sustainable. And the alternative is to think about 1:09:19.320 --> 1:09:21.639 how can I build up that soil without doing that, 1:09:22.040 --> 1:09:23.880 And there's a couple of different ways we can do that. 1:09:25.040 --> 1:09:29.160 The soil can get built from things like cover crops, 1:09:29.200 --> 1:09:32.759 so we can add cover crops. Generally things like nitrogen 1:09:32.840 --> 1:09:37.439 fixing plants, clovers, hairy vetch, and a number of others 1:09:37.439 --> 1:09:40.320 that we can use to help fix nitrogen into the soil. 1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:43.479 Or we can add other things to add biomass. So 1:09:43.640 --> 1:09:46.800 certain grasses and things like that can be planted and 1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:49.640 they'll mine deep into the soil to pull up nutrients 1:09:49.880 --> 1:09:52.080 when they die off, or you can cut them down 1:09:52.439 --> 1:09:55.240 they start breaking down, they return those nutrients back, but 1:09:55.280 --> 1:09:57.559 they're on the top soil now, So that's another way 1:09:57.600 --> 1:10:01.040 we can do it. Alternatively, we're talking about a little 1:10:01.040 --> 1:10:04.280 bit more land. You can take advantage of using animals 1:10:04.360 --> 1:10:10.520 so chickens, rabbits, cheap cows, whatever it might be, reintroduce 1:10:10.680 --> 1:10:14.120 nutrients back into the soil through things like rotational grazing. 1:10:14.640 --> 1:10:16.960 And there's a you know that, that's a whole other 1:10:17.040 --> 1:10:20.280 subject of you know, how different methods are better or 1:10:20.360 --> 1:10:23.760 worse for fixing nitrogen and all the other nutrients back 1:10:23.760 --> 1:10:26.720 into the soil, and um we can talk about it. 1:10:26.720 --> 1:10:28.280 I don't know if you want to spend an hour 1:10:28.400 --> 1:10:31.680 talking about it. I assume that that definitely depends on 1:10:31.920 --> 1:10:35.120 the scale of your operation. I would assume absolutely, and 1:10:35.160 --> 1:10:38.479 you can do that on a smaller scale, not necessarily cows, 1:10:38.600 --> 1:10:42.479 but like chickens can. Chickens can be run through chicken tractors, 1:10:42.520 --> 1:10:44.960 which can be as small as you know, three ft 1:10:44.960 --> 1:10:48.200 by six ft. And we're making Yeah, we were making 1:10:48.240 --> 1:10:53.720 some fertilizer a few months ago and basically we braked up, 1:10:53.840 --> 1:10:56.960 well I did. I watched as people did this because 1:10:57.000 --> 1:11:01.040 I was lazy. I watched people as rake up tons 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:05.160 of sheep shit um because there we have there's a 1:11:05.160 --> 1:11:08.320 little sheep set up, and they were just raking up 1:11:08.360 --> 1:11:10.920 all the ship and putting into a pile of dirt. 1:11:11.520 --> 1:11:14.640 And now it's been like a it's been like a 1:11:14.680 --> 1:11:17.480 month or two, and we should have some okay fertilizer 1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:20.439 by now, which we can you know, use however we 1:11:20.479 --> 1:11:25.559 see fit. But chickens, chickens, chickens as well, not not 1:11:25.640 --> 1:11:29.360 everyone probably has sheep or access to sheep um, but 1:11:29.479 --> 1:11:32.720 chickens are surprisingly easy to get. Yeah, and depending on 1:11:32.760 --> 1:11:35.400 the city or in uh you can live in pretty 1:11:35.439 --> 1:11:38.320 dense places and still legally have chickens. You might have 1:11:38.360 --> 1:11:40.280 to get comfortable with the idea of slaughtering a rooster, 1:11:40.439 --> 1:11:43.519 but other than that, you know, there's it's funny because 1:11:43.520 --> 1:11:45.519 what you'll see is like in the early spring, everyone 1:11:45.560 --> 1:11:49.559 gets chickens, and then by like July u on on 1:11:49.720 --> 1:11:55.920 Craigslist or Facebook or Instagram, everyone's like, free rooster to 1:11:56.000 --> 1:12:01.360 good home because they can't slaughter themselves. Uh. Yeah, I've 1:12:01.360 --> 1:12:03.840 had I've had to watch a few roosters get the 1:12:04.680 --> 1:12:08.400 get the old old acts. There was there was this 1:12:08.439 --> 1:12:11.680 one rooster that would always wake up as we were 1:12:11.680 --> 1:12:13.360 all going to bed. We would have like we have 1:12:13.439 --> 1:12:16.000 like a movie night, um, and we're like going to 1:12:16.040 --> 1:12:17.920 bed at four am, and that's when the rooster starts. 1:12:18.000 --> 1:12:21.120 We're like no, we're trying to sleep, and we're like, 1:12:21.240 --> 1:12:25.519 we need to kill that rooster. It's time. It's time. 1:12:25.600 --> 1:12:27.960 One bad day to be like I cannot listen to 1:12:28.000 --> 1:12:32.880 that sound again. At least at least it went to 1:12:33.000 --> 1:12:37.040 some good use. Yeah, anyway, back to dirt. Yeah, let's 1:12:37.080 --> 1:12:40.840 see where we keep talking about reintroducing stuff via you know, 1:12:41.080 --> 1:12:44.240 chemical means I mean, or or just using animals and stuff, 1:12:44.560 --> 1:12:48.000 or or rotating plants. Yeah. So there's a bunch of 1:12:48.000 --> 1:12:50.240 different ways you can do it, and obviously it's all 1:12:50.960 --> 1:12:54.479 defined by what your site needs. You know. The way 1:12:54.520 --> 1:12:56.360 we're talking at this point has been mostly about like 1:12:56.400 --> 1:12:58.600 you already have a garden and that soil needs to 1:12:58.600 --> 1:13:01.760 be amended to improve it. But if you're working with, 1:13:01.880 --> 1:13:04.639 say a site that has almost no top soil. So 1:13:05.360 --> 1:13:08.320 for example, a friend of mine out in California lives 1:13:08.360 --> 1:13:12.040 near a highway and they scraped all the top soil 1:13:12.320 --> 1:13:15.559 around the highway to build up the highway. So now 1:13:15.560 --> 1:13:18.960 there's no top soil, it's just garbage. So how do 1:13:19.000 --> 1:13:20.920 you build that soil up? And there's a bunch of 1:13:20.960 --> 1:13:23.519 different ways we can do that, whether it's through taking 1:13:23.560 --> 1:13:27.840 advantage of free resources like um mulch. Like if you 1:13:27.920 --> 1:13:29.880 see a tree getting cut down and they chip it 1:13:29.880 --> 1:13:32.200 all up, those guys have to pay to get rid 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:34.320 of it most of the time, or they get paid 1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:36.880 just enough to cover their gas. So if you see 1:13:36.920 --> 1:13:38.080 it down the street and say, hey, you want to 1:13:38.120 --> 1:13:40.719 drop it off in my house, they'll happily do it. Yeah. 1:13:40.880 --> 1:13:43.400 We we just found out there is this business in 1:13:43.520 --> 1:13:47.000 Portland that you can email them to do a chip 1:13:47.080 --> 1:13:49.080 drop where they take all of their mulch and wood 1:13:49.120 --> 1:13:51.760 chips and drop them off in your driveway and it's 1:13:51.760 --> 1:13:54.240 completely free. You you you you don't need to pay 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:56.479 for it. You can just schedule them to drop it 1:13:56.520 --> 1:13:59.280 off anywhere. And a short aside, we also found out 1:13:59.439 --> 1:14:02.320 that they don't quire address verification, so you can do 1:14:02.360 --> 1:14:05.439 this as a prank. Um, you can find out where 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:08.400 the mayor lives, um or where I don't know a 1:14:08.479 --> 1:14:12.320 particularly bad person lives. Let's say he wears armor and 1:14:12.360 --> 1:14:16.120 he brutalizes people and threatens them with guns while having 1:14:16.120 --> 1:14:18.320 a badge. You can find out if you know where 1:14:18.320 --> 1:14:20.240 he lives, you can just deliver tons of wood chips 1:14:20.360 --> 1:14:23.000 right right on this driveway. Um. And and they have 1:14:23.040 --> 1:14:25.720 a rule on their website is once a delivery has 1:14:25.720 --> 1:14:28.200 been initiated, it's like once the truck leaves you know, 1:14:28.240 --> 1:14:31.679 their office, it cannot be stopped. There's no way, there's 1:14:31.680 --> 1:14:34.800 no way preventing it. And they don't contact the house beforehand, 1:14:34.960 --> 1:14:38.320 no way preventing it. Just a random, random wood chip 1:14:38.400 --> 1:14:42.080 drop anywhere in any driveway. It's a magical system. But 1:14:42.320 --> 1:14:43.880 you can also just use this for you know, getting 1:14:43.880 --> 1:14:46.600 wood chips to help grow things. Yeah, and well, just 1:14:46.680 --> 1:14:49.280 such an underrated medium. It's like really good for like 1:14:49.400 --> 1:14:52.519 water retention and helping soil not dry out too fast. 1:14:52.600 --> 1:14:56.240 It's it's not just like aesthetically nice looking and accessible. 1:14:56.360 --> 1:14:59.080 It's also like really good for the plants. So I'll 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:01.559 add to caveats to that, And the first is that 1:15:02.280 --> 1:15:04.599 it's really important to know what species you're dealing with 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:08.120 that are the wood chips, because certain species have chemicals 1:15:08.120 --> 1:15:12.360 on them that will reduce growth or stop it completely. 1:15:12.840 --> 1:15:15.680 So like black walnuts are really well known and on 1:15:15.720 --> 1:15:19.320 the East Coast as having what's called juglone, And there's 1:15:19.360 --> 1:15:22.360 a bunch of different species that again are probably unique 1:15:22.400 --> 1:15:24.240 to where you live that you should just be aware of. 1:15:24.920 --> 1:15:28.200 And the second one is that mulch and wood chips 1:15:28.200 --> 1:15:32.519 are fantastic for your garden. However, the one drawback is 1:15:32.560 --> 1:15:35.679 that for the wood chips to break down, they actually 1:15:35.800 --> 1:15:38.479 utilize a lot of the nitrogen in the soil. So 1:15:38.520 --> 1:15:40.280 that's just so you may have a bit of a 1:15:40.400 --> 1:15:42.880 nitrogen problem or some kind of nitrogen fixing, so it 1:15:42.920 --> 1:15:45.960 would be more important to think about cover crops and 1:15:46.760 --> 1:15:50.240 either adding freshman compost or whatever it might be help 1:15:50.320 --> 1:15:53.720 offset some of that nitrogen absorption. So so it's not 1:15:54.240 --> 1:15:56.600 it's a great resource, it's just not perfect. You just 1:15:56.640 --> 1:16:00.360 have to be aware of the limitations of it. I 1:16:00.400 --> 1:16:04.559 would like to touch on why we're in a bit 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:06.840 of a pickle, like what what what what have we 1:16:06.960 --> 1:16:11.440 done agriculturally to kind of make our soil so unfragile? 1:16:11.560 --> 1:16:14.680 Like what what did we do wrong? Um on? Like 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:17.960 even on a larger scale, and how how might someone 1:16:18.040 --> 1:16:20.599 like me who just has a small set up, you know, 1:16:21.000 --> 1:16:24.040 not make the same mistakes in my own personal garden. Sure, 1:16:24.120 --> 1:16:29.360 so the beginning of the food system becoming what it 1:16:29.439 --> 1:16:34.719 is today really started with oil. Um access to things 1:16:34.840 --> 1:16:38.880 like petrochemicals allowed us to start rethinking about how we 1:16:38.920 --> 1:16:44.160 grew food and forgetting about traditional methods summarily, things like 1:16:44.240 --> 1:16:47.080 using the newer I mean, you think about it. You eat, 1:16:47.120 --> 1:16:50.840 all the nutrients go out the sewer and then they 1:16:50.880 --> 1:16:54.559 never go back into the soil. And we're constantly taking 1:16:54.600 --> 1:16:57.360 from the same soils year after year. And the only 1:16:57.360 --> 1:16:59.920 way we continue to produce is because we're dumping chem 1:17:00.040 --> 1:17:03.160 coals enforcing the soil, which is just a medium at 1:17:03.160 --> 1:17:06.679 this point. It's just dirt, it's not soil, and we're 1:17:06.680 --> 1:17:08.960 just making it grow food because we're adding the chemicals 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:12.280 the plants need. But we've destroyed things like the bacterial community, 1:17:12.320 --> 1:17:16.000 the fungag community, all these different things that are so 1:17:16.080 --> 1:17:19.439 crucial for our food systems to be resilient in terms 1:17:19.520 --> 1:17:23.280 of how can we move forward. Building that soil is 1:17:23.320 --> 1:17:25.960 super important and understanding these cycles of where our food 1:17:25.960 --> 1:17:29.920 comes from. The biggest challenge really is that we're trying 1:17:29.960 --> 1:17:36.519 to create ethical food systems under an inethical economic model. Sure, so, 1:17:36.760 --> 1:17:39.800 like you'll see, like permaculture is like a really big 1:17:39.840 --> 1:17:42.759 thing today and for a lot of good reasons because 1:17:43.200 --> 1:17:48.720 it challenges that methodology. However, because of things like capitalism, 1:17:48.760 --> 1:17:51.280 we can't really have an honest conversation about the fact 1:17:51.320 --> 1:17:53.559 that a lot of people will tell you you can 1:17:53.600 --> 1:17:57.000 make money doing permaculture, and some people do, but it's 1:17:57.080 --> 1:18:00.559 not it's not really what people think. Like there's no 1:18:00.600 --> 1:18:05.799 way to ethically grow food and not have the problems 1:18:05.840 --> 1:18:10.360 of yeah, you're you're facing or competing with somebody that 1:18:10.479 --> 1:18:13.680 doesn't have any ethical guidelines or framework that you have 1:18:13.720 --> 1:18:16.280 to compete with. And I mean, there's plenty of things 1:18:16.360 --> 1:18:18.800 we can say that there are problems with permaculture, and 1:18:18.800 --> 1:18:21.080 if you want, we can talk about that further. But 1:18:21.200 --> 1:18:25.360 this is the primary reason why we can't really fundamentally 1:18:25.400 --> 1:18:29.280 rethink our food system until things either fall apart or 1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:33.160 capitalism no longer exists, or there are major subsidies for 1:18:33.200 --> 1:18:37.240 these alternatives, whatever it might be. Yeah, let's see, Like 1:18:37.800 --> 1:18:41.200 is even something like would you even say, just like 1:18:41.360 --> 1:18:45.519 someone buying pre made fertilizers should be avoided in that case, 1:18:45.560 --> 1:18:47.679 Like would you would you rather you know, someone trying 1:18:47.680 --> 1:18:49.720 to make it ourselves, and like what's cheaper you know, 1:18:49.760 --> 1:18:52.439 like it is just buying fertilizers or cheaper than I 1:18:52.439 --> 1:18:54.519 would actually make it yourself. There's another kind of problem 1:18:54.560 --> 1:18:56.800 with these types of things that it turns out, you know, 1:18:56.840 --> 1:18:59.400 the way to make things better might cost some people 1:18:59.640 --> 1:19:01.680 more money, you know than people who don't really have 1:19:01.800 --> 1:19:03.800 as many resources. You know, just like a regular person 1:19:03.840 --> 1:19:06.000 who's trying to do this, you know, they don't have 1:19:06.040 --> 1:19:08.559 as much money, and would would just buying pre made 1:19:08.640 --> 1:19:12.360 chemicals you know, easier and cheaper than doing work to 1:19:12.439 --> 1:19:15.240 kind of build it up more like quote unquote naturally, 1:19:16.479 --> 1:19:20.880 I mean, obviously, I think under capitalism, anything that's efficient 1:19:20.920 --> 1:19:24.439 in terms of time and um taking advantage of things 1:19:24.479 --> 1:19:29.439 like scalability, which you know, mining nutrients is always going 1:19:29.479 --> 1:19:31.439 to be more efficient when you're doing it on a 1:19:31.479 --> 1:19:35.400 massive global scale, Like you really can't compete dollar for dollar. 1:19:36.000 --> 1:19:38.600 And that's at least with what I do with the 1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:41.280 poor pros almanac. We don't really focus on that and 1:19:41.320 --> 1:19:43.960 instead say this is how things should be, and how 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:46.439 do we do that and when do we need to 1:19:46.479 --> 1:19:49.400 start doing that if we know that what exists today 1:19:49.560 --> 1:19:53.759 isn't sustainable and that ultimately this is gonna fall apart 1:19:53.760 --> 1:19:58.760 in some capacity. Yeah, you talked more about like trees specifically, 1:19:58.840 --> 1:20:00.200 and I would love to love to hear them more 1:20:00.240 --> 1:20:03.160 about that, you know, outside of just you know, making 1:20:03.160 --> 1:20:06.639 your own like edible garden, doing doing other kind of 1:20:06.800 --> 1:20:11.800 ecology related related work. Sure, so trees have you know, 1:20:11.960 --> 1:20:15.000 so many benefits outside of the fact that they can 1:20:15.000 --> 1:20:18.439 produce food. Um, we could look at things like how 1:20:18.479 --> 1:20:22.680 they can manage a landscape and reduce temperature extremes, the 1:20:22.680 --> 1:20:27.799 way they can maintain soil quality because of UM, reducing 1:20:27.840 --> 1:20:30.599 things like runoff from major storms, which are happening more 1:20:30.640 --> 1:20:33.840 and more frequently. YEA. Further, like I said, they do 1:20:33.960 --> 1:20:37.120 produce food, and they sometimes they produce food for us, 1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:42.200 sometimes they produce food for our livestock. UM. Additionally, there's 1:20:42.320 --> 1:20:46.000 a process called silver pasture, which is essentially when you 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:47.679 think of a farm, you think of a cow walking 1:20:47.680 --> 1:20:50.519 around in a field. Instead that cows walking around and 1:20:51.400 --> 1:20:55.559 a managed forest, and the forest floor gets enough sunlight 1:20:55.600 --> 1:20:58.000 to grow grass, so you're getting the benefits of the 1:20:58.040 --> 1:21:01.160 grass as well as the trees, and you can either 1:21:01.200 --> 1:21:03.920 be using those trees for lumber or for food crops 1:21:04.000 --> 1:21:06.080 or whatever it might be, and you're getting the best 1:21:06.080 --> 1:21:08.800 of both worlds. And in a lot of ways, the 1:21:08.840 --> 1:21:13.120 civil pastor's system more accurately represents the way the landscape 1:21:13.120 --> 1:21:16.240 had been managed, especially here in the northeast and generally 1:21:16.280 --> 1:21:19.840 the East coast, by indigenous people. Um, you know, they 1:21:19.840 --> 1:21:22.800 weren't using cows. They were doing prescribed burns and things 1:21:22.840 --> 1:21:25.920 like that. But those environments are actually better for things 1:21:25.960 --> 1:21:29.080 like a deer, which like to like to exist on 1:21:30.280 --> 1:21:32.960 like the margins of forests where they're getting the best 1:21:32.960 --> 1:21:35.120 of both worlds. So that was how they managed a 1:21:35.120 --> 1:21:41.040 wild Essentially, they're wild grazing the native species. Yeah, we 1:21:41.120 --> 1:21:44.320 just I'm just trying to think there's like we we 1:21:44.439 --> 1:21:46.400 don't really have anything like that on a on a 1:21:46.479 --> 1:21:50.280 large scale anymore. We've we've just jumped right into like 1:21:50.320 --> 1:21:53.920 the the field and pasture thing. Yeah, I mean you 1:21:53.920 --> 1:21:56.000 think about it, it it makes sense that we haven't because 1:21:56.040 --> 1:22:00.280 of the fact that to do that requires individual reality. 1:22:00.479 --> 1:22:02.800 In terms of how we manage a landscape, you can't 1:22:02.840 --> 1:22:06.479 run a machine through sable pasture. You can't just make 1:22:06.520 --> 1:22:08.920 like a template and apply to every situation. Everything is 1:22:08.960 --> 1:22:12.800 much more unique based on their individual environment and ecosystem. Yeah, 1:22:12.840 --> 1:22:15.320 and then it becomes less efficient to manage in terms 1:22:15.360 --> 1:22:18.800 of how we manage things as a successional thing where 1:22:18.800 --> 1:22:21.679 we have you go through the field and you seat 1:22:21.720 --> 1:22:23.920 it with a giant machine, because you can do it 1:22:24.000 --> 1:22:27.080 faster that way, you can add whatever amendments you need 1:22:27.640 --> 1:22:29.719 more quickly when it's just a flat piece of land 1:22:29.800 --> 1:22:32.080 with nothing in the way, so on and so on. 1:22:32.120 --> 1:22:34.439 It's just it doesn't It goes right in the face 1:22:34.479 --> 1:22:37.559 of how we think of efficiency, despite the fact, through 1:22:37.600 --> 1:22:41.479 its diversity, it's more resilient to what's coming in terms 1:22:41.520 --> 1:22:45.519 of climate change, especially the logs run. Yeah. Yeah. In 1:22:45.520 --> 1:22:47.799 the last episode we talked a bit about grilling gardening. 1:22:48.080 --> 1:22:50.760 Can this like intersect with with this idea of like 1:22:50.920 --> 1:22:53.560 growing in the forest? Um is there? You know, I 1:22:53.800 --> 1:22:58.080 assume there's like a decent cross over there. Absolutely, So, 1:22:58.479 --> 1:23:01.879 generally speaking, lot of people that are into silvil pasture 1:23:01.920 --> 1:23:04.880 are also thinking about things like tree crops. And one 1:23:04.880 --> 1:23:06.960 of the things that I really focus on is thinking 1:23:07.000 --> 1:23:10.599 about foods that we don't traditionally think of as foods, 1:23:10.640 --> 1:23:13.200 or at least not as like staple crops. So like, 1:23:13.240 --> 1:23:15.759 while people might be familiar with kind of the odd 1:23:15.760 --> 1:23:18.400 fruits like per simmons, you might know what a persimmon is. 1:23:18.400 --> 1:23:20.200 You might have one or two, or maybe make per 1:23:20.200 --> 1:23:24.640 simmon bread. That's not usually a large part of anyone's diet, no, 1:23:25.160 --> 1:23:27.479 And that's like, that's the challenge that we really have 1:23:27.680 --> 1:23:30.519 is while people like to incorporate these types of things 1:23:30.560 --> 1:23:33.679 in permaculture into you know, how they think about their 1:23:33.680 --> 1:23:37.479 relationship with the environment, Like nobody's giving up their toast 1:23:37.520 --> 1:23:39.160 in the morning, and that's you know, a third of 1:23:39.200 --> 1:23:41.280 your diet or whatever it might be. And that's where 1:23:41.320 --> 1:23:44.120 we need to fundamentally shift how we think about food. 1:23:45.080 --> 1:23:47.679 So you're saying that we need to change in order 1:23:47.680 --> 1:23:50.719 to address these large systemic issues that have caused many problems. 1:23:51.000 --> 1:23:54.360 We need to change the way we extract resources from 1:23:54.360 --> 1:23:58.479 the earth and maybe reevaluate how much we do. So yeah, 1:23:58.560 --> 1:24:00.640 I mean, you know, it's it's no small feet, is 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:02.800 what I'm saying. I know, I'm just saying, like, you know, 1:24:03.000 --> 1:24:07.040 that's the this specific thing around like food and diet 1:24:07.880 --> 1:24:10.880 is the same route problem we have with climate change 1:24:11.080 --> 1:24:14.519 on a larger scale of like just doing you know, 1:24:15.040 --> 1:24:18.680 progress for progress's sake without realizing that this is not 1:24:18.880 --> 1:24:22.240 a sustainable way to do things. And infinite growing and 1:24:22.280 --> 1:24:26.160 like infinite expansion maybe is a bad idea. Yeah, maybe 1:24:26.160 --> 1:24:29.240 it has some consequence. Who has some consequences? Who would 1:24:29.240 --> 1:24:36.160 have thought that infinite growth on a finite planet wasn't sustainable? Oops? Yeah. 1:24:36.360 --> 1:24:38.880 The point that I'm really trying to drive home is 1:24:38.920 --> 1:24:42.200 that we really need to rethink what food looks like 1:24:42.720 --> 1:24:44.960 and it has to be in a meaningful way that 1:24:45.040 --> 1:24:48.040 it can't just be those odds and ends, and that 1:24:48.439 --> 1:24:50.840 the thing I think people forget is that food is 1:24:50.880 --> 1:24:53.839 a huge component of our culture and our identity. Absolutely 1:24:53.920 --> 1:24:57.120 think about food and identity. The reason why our identity 1:24:57.200 --> 1:24:59.920 surrounded around food is because food is the byproduct of 1:25:00.040 --> 1:25:02.720 the environment that we live in, and it's you know, 1:25:02.800 --> 1:25:05.200 for it's been a couple of generations and we went 1:25:05.240 --> 1:25:08.360 from the reason why Italians e x y z s 1:25:08.400 --> 1:25:11.759 because that's what grows there. Two, I eat this because 1:25:11.800 --> 1:25:14.639 my family does, but I don't know why. And that's 1:25:15.040 --> 1:25:17.640 the way those things relate to one another has been 1:25:17.800 --> 1:25:20.559 completely lost, and we need to figure out how to 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:24.680 do that again. Can you point to any examples of 1:25:24.720 --> 1:25:27.120 these things you're talking about of, like you know, of 1:25:27.240 --> 1:25:29.880 systems existing now or in the past that of kind 1:25:29.880 --> 1:25:34.920 of shown these methods of viewing food and viewing you know, 1:25:35.200 --> 1:25:41.000 growing and soil cultivation. So like any indigenous practice. And 1:25:41.160 --> 1:25:43.960 like we say indigenous, and we usually mean like North 1:25:44.000 --> 1:25:47.160 America or South America or Australia. But even if you 1:25:47.200 --> 1:25:52.240 look across Europe, you know, before capitalism kind of got 1:25:52.240 --> 1:25:56.040 its clause into the rest of Europe or all of Europe, like, 1:25:56.080 --> 1:25:59.400 there were plenty of indigenous practices and in some places 1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:05.680 they continue and the way that people lived um reflected 1:26:05.760 --> 1:26:08.880 the needs of their ecology and how people could relate 1:26:08.880 --> 1:26:12.240 to that ecology. The reason why Nordic countries have high 1:26:12.280 --> 1:26:14.519 amounts of meat in their diet is because of what 1:26:14.600 --> 1:26:17.479 grows there and what how they can utilize what grows 1:26:17.520 --> 1:26:20.559 there to feed themselves through animals and things like that. 1:26:22.120 --> 1:26:24.840 M Yeah, I mean that is that is generally what 1:26:24.880 --> 1:26:28.919 we hear is you know, look at the various indigenous 1:26:28.920 --> 1:26:32.000 methods of growing um and how they how they fed 1:26:32.040 --> 1:26:34.320 people in their media the area, and thinking like, how 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:36.920 can we take those similar ideas and scale it up? 1:26:36.960 --> 1:26:40.160 Because I mean, they weren't growing food for seven billion people. 1:26:40.200 --> 1:26:42.759 But I know, like, we grow way too much food 1:26:43.080 --> 1:26:45.880 for what for many people, maybe not too much food, 1:26:45.880 --> 1:26:48.679 just we distribute it in a very unefficient way because 1:26:48.720 --> 1:26:50.320 we don't do it for what we need. We do 1:26:50.360 --> 1:26:52.160 it for profits, and like we we we throw away 1:26:52.200 --> 1:26:55.680 so much food that we grow, as you know, globally um. 1:26:55.720 --> 1:26:58.040 But I know when I think of these more like 1:26:58.120 --> 1:27:01.400 older methods of growing food, it's it's harder for me 1:27:01.479 --> 1:27:04.759 to picture that, you know, feeding an entire city, right, 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:07.240 And I don't know what the solution is here. This 1:27:07.280 --> 1:27:10.080 isn't really the thing I focus on a lot. But 1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:12.000 is there a way to kind of scale up these 1:27:12.000 --> 1:27:13.840 like smaller skill things that you know, people can do 1:27:13.840 --> 1:27:16.720 in their own yards on any kind of mass level 1:27:16.800 --> 1:27:18.519 or is that just kind of rely back on this 1:27:18.640 --> 1:27:21.160 thing thing we've need to like re reevaluate how much 1:27:21.200 --> 1:27:23.639 we consume and how we consume it. So I think 1:27:23.680 --> 1:27:25.280 there's a little bit of both. I think we do 1:27:25.360 --> 1:27:28.479 need to reevaluate what we're consuming and the volume that 1:27:28.520 --> 1:27:31.400 we're consuming as well as um, you know, the the 1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:35.599 waste specifically in terms of those two things that we 1:27:35.680 --> 1:27:37.559 tend to lose a lot of food that otherwise is 1:27:37.800 --> 1:27:42.000 useful um. But also there is a lot of opportunity 1:27:42.160 --> 1:27:46.080 and wild places like maybe New York City, because of 1:27:46.120 --> 1:27:49.320 the development around the city, might not there might not 1:27:49.360 --> 1:27:52.400 be any way possible to grow food, like within the 1:27:52.439 --> 1:27:57.240 metropolitan or even the region. We know that, like, and 1:27:57.320 --> 1:27:59.760 this is something I probably should have checked before the 1:28:00.000 --> 1:28:02.439 at but it's something like there's four acres of arable 1:28:02.520 --> 1:28:06.439 land for every person on Earth, and four acres is 1:28:06.800 --> 1:28:11.720 like that's plenty. That's plenty. That's absolutely plenty. UM. But like, 1:28:12.960 --> 1:28:15.320 one of the things that's really important is to start 1:28:15.320 --> 1:28:18.559 thinking about how we can decentralize these systems in order 1:28:18.600 --> 1:28:21.720 to have those clusters of places where those things are 1:28:22.080 --> 1:28:27.560 more um capable of growing and handling the production that's necessary. 1:28:27.640 --> 1:28:30.960 And so maybe rethink about what what urbanization really should 1:28:30.960 --> 1:28:32.920 be and what it should look like. And you know, 1:28:33.760 --> 1:28:36.479 in the future, while things may seem like well, you 1:28:36.520 --> 1:28:39.599 can't ask people to leave New York City as climate 1:28:39.680 --> 1:28:42.439 change worsens in our food systems startt to fall apart, 1:28:42.960 --> 1:28:45.160 that might be a much easier conversation to have, while 1:28:45.280 --> 1:28:48.000 today that seems kind of radical. Yeah, and at the 1:28:48.120 --> 1:28:50.479 very least, maybe we should maybe we shouldn't make any 1:28:50.520 --> 1:28:55.400 more New York cities. Absolutely. Um, is there any like 1:28:55.479 --> 1:28:58.400 resources online that you can point to that talks more 1:28:58.400 --> 1:29:00.759 about these types of topics or like books, sally anything 1:29:01.000 --> 1:29:03.479 in this general was growing on the growing side of 1:29:03.520 --> 1:29:05.519 things and then like the more like ecology side of things. 1:29:06.000 --> 1:29:08.559 So Tom Wessels has this really great book called The 1:29:08.600 --> 1:29:12.639 Myth of Progress, which talks about complex system science and 1:29:12.840 --> 1:29:17.080 essentially what that is is decentralization and um, the benefits 1:29:17.160 --> 1:29:21.160 of having diversity within a community and in fact that 1:29:21.200 --> 1:29:25.519 any any power that's you know, centered in one specific 1:29:25.560 --> 1:29:29.439 place ends up having imbalances and has less resiliency, and 1:29:29.520 --> 1:29:32.040 that plays until it's focused around ecology. But I think 1:29:32.080 --> 1:29:35.000 it's really helpful, especially if you're an anarchist. I think 1:29:35.000 --> 1:29:38.719 you can through the lens. Yeah. Yeah, so that that's 1:29:38.760 --> 1:29:42.519 definitely one place to look in terms of like growing food. 1:29:43.280 --> 1:29:45.120 I don't know if there's really any books that really 1:29:45.160 --> 1:29:49.120 address it. From this perspective of climate change and decentralization. 1:29:49.479 --> 1:29:53.200 But there's plenty of work online about silver pasture and 1:29:53.400 --> 1:29:55.639 you know, food force, any of these types of things. 1:29:55.760 --> 1:30:00.160 YouTube has like a vast array of resources, And of 1:30:00.160 --> 1:30:02.720 course if you're interested in this kind of stuff, you 1:30:02.760 --> 1:30:06.800 can come check us out on our podcast or proslamanac we. Uh, 1:30:06.880 --> 1:30:09.800 the entire show is pretty much around this subject matter, 1:30:09.880 --> 1:30:11.920 so you want to learn more about it and check 1:30:11.920 --> 1:30:16.559 it out. Yeah, absolutely definitely, UM if this specific topic, 1:30:16.640 --> 1:30:20.680 you have a wonderful catalog of stuff discussing this, UM 1:30:20.720 --> 1:30:22.920 and I just want to thank you they and thank 1:30:22.960 --> 1:30:24.640 you so much for coming on this show to kind 1:30:24.680 --> 1:30:27.880 of talk about these topics. You know, me and Robert 1:30:28.400 --> 1:30:30.280 and you know Chris, we more of like a background 1:30:30.320 --> 1:30:32.519 and like history and that kind of thing. We are. 1:30:32.840 --> 1:30:36.880 We are not super avid plant people, like we're trying 1:30:36.880 --> 1:30:39.519 to start growing more stuff to our ourselves personally, but 1:30:39.560 --> 1:30:42.400 I'm definitely not educated to talk on this, and I'm 1:30:42.520 --> 1:30:45.759 very very happy that you were able to when you're 1:30:45.760 --> 1:30:48.479 generous with your time and knowledge. So thank you, Thank 1:30:48.520 --> 1:30:52.640 you so much. Yeah, definitely check out their show on 1:30:52.800 --> 1:30:55.960 you know, wherever you get your podcasts and You can 1:30:56.000 --> 1:31:00.000 follow this show Twitter, on Instagram at cool Zone Media 1:31:00.040 --> 1:31:03.280 you and happen here pod um any any any final 1:31:03.439 --> 1:31:08.080 final notes. Grow some food, Yeah, grow some food. Grows 1:31:08.120 --> 1:31:11.559 some food. That is what if I've asked that question 1:31:11.640 --> 1:31:14.800 a lot and that answer has come up many times. 1:31:14.840 --> 1:31:36.480 Just growth, grow food. Okay, grows food. What spicy pumpkins? 1:31:38.439 --> 1:31:41.080 It was it was clipping where it's not clipping. You 1:31:41.160 --> 1:31:43.800 just don't like me saying, what's spicy my pumpkins? But 1:31:43.920 --> 1:31:46.320 I said it and it can't be unsaid. It was clipping. 1:31:46.479 --> 1:31:49.840 This is it could happen Here a daily podcast about 1:31:49.880 --> 1:31:52.960 the end of some things and the beginning of other things. 1:31:53.160 --> 1:31:55.920 And right now it's an episode about the beginning of fall. 1:31:55.960 --> 1:31:58.479 Because it's officially fall and I'm drinking a pumpkin spice 1:31:58.520 --> 1:32:01.800 black coffee for you. It's also not officially fall yet. 1:32:02.240 --> 1:32:04.320 It may it may be officially fall by the time 1:32:04.360 --> 1:32:07.160 this podcast comes legally fall when I have my first 1:32:07.200 --> 1:32:10.160 pumpkin spice black coffee of the year and it's cool outside. 1:32:10.400 --> 1:32:13.280 That's because you're a monster. It's because I'm a happy 1:32:13.320 --> 1:32:17.400 man who is enjoying a fall beverage. On this episode today, 1:32:17.520 --> 1:32:21.479 we have, of course Garrison Garrison, Hello, Hi Garrison. Are 1:32:21.520 --> 1:32:25.040 you doing. I'm doing fine great. We also have my 1:32:25.160 --> 1:32:28.600 friends be in a lane b E lane. You you 1:32:28.600 --> 1:32:31.280 you were on the show recently to talk about terrorism 1:32:31.320 --> 1:32:36.439 a year ago. Ye, recently. Everything before yesterday is a 1:32:36.560 --> 1:32:39.120 year ago. And uh and now you're on to talk 1:32:39.160 --> 1:32:46.639 about surviving. Yeah. Yeah, like crafty surviving punk. Yeah. We 1:32:46.680 --> 1:32:48.880 we brought made it this far. You on because you 1:32:48.920 --> 1:32:51.679 were like two of the most useful skill filled people 1:32:51.760 --> 1:32:55.800 that I know. You're both wilderness survival instructors, primitive skill 1:32:55.840 --> 1:32:59.040 instructors for a while, and you have a small farm 1:32:59.040 --> 1:33:01.280 in a town that I won't name, and you do 1:33:01.360 --> 1:33:03.800 all sorts of cool ship like storing food and making 1:33:03.960 --> 1:33:08.120 arrows and other things that are alleged. And what I 1:33:08.160 --> 1:33:09.960 like about that is that, you know, we talk about 1:33:09.960 --> 1:33:12.720 like collapse and and things falling apart. There's this kind 1:33:12.760 --> 1:33:16.160 of like I don't know, almost like mimetic obsession with 1:33:16.200 --> 1:33:17.600 like I want to get out into the woods and 1:33:17.640 --> 1:33:19.639 away from the city, and that's the only way to survive, 1:33:19.680 --> 1:33:22.240 and like the reality of the situations, that's a terrible 1:33:22.280 --> 1:33:24.599 way to survive. It's awful. There's nobody in the wood. 1:33:24.640 --> 1:33:28.519 There's nobody in the woods and people and it's you know, 1:33:28.600 --> 1:33:31.120 there's there are there are a small chunk of the 1:33:31.200 --> 1:33:34.599 human race that is capable with with just themselves of 1:33:34.640 --> 1:33:38.600 like surviving in the middle of nowhere with nobody. But 1:33:38.680 --> 1:33:41.599 there's even among that population, there's a small fraction who 1:33:41.640 --> 1:33:44.479 are capable of doing that and not shooting themselves after 1:33:44.520 --> 1:33:46.920 a long enough period of time, and you wouldn't want 1:33:46.920 --> 1:33:49.160 to meet that person generally. Well, And I think the 1:33:49.200 --> 1:33:51.519 other the other thing about that is like the sort 1:33:51.560 --> 1:33:57.559 of fetishization of of you know, individualists survival skills is 1:33:58.479 --> 1:34:01.639 based on this idea that what people when people were 1:34:01.680 --> 1:34:04.640 like living off the land, that they were doing it 1:34:04.840 --> 1:34:11.040 by themselves alone. Community. There's very few people that survived 1:34:11.120 --> 1:34:13.679 alone for a long time, and even of the people 1:34:13.680 --> 1:34:16.760 that had the skills, like even she wandered out of 1:34:16.800 --> 1:34:19.920 the woods after I think eight years of being by 1:34:20.000 --> 1:34:26.080 himself and was finally like fuck it. He was the 1:34:26.160 --> 1:34:31.040 last of a indigenous group in California where everyone else 1:34:31.040 --> 1:34:34.600 in his tribe had been basically with been genocided and 1:34:34.800 --> 1:34:39.599 him and like the last like five people went off 1:34:39.640 --> 1:34:42.559 and hid for very good reason. Um And then after 1:34:42.680 --> 1:34:45.479 disease and stuff, then it was just him, and he 1:34:45.560 --> 1:34:48.760 spent I forget how many years by himself, and after 1:34:48.840 --> 1:34:52.240 a while he finally was like, fuck it, being by 1:34:52.240 --> 1:34:53.800 myself is not worth it, and he came out, and 1:34:53.840 --> 1:34:56.599 it was just after the turn of the century, and 1:34:56.720 --> 1:35:00.000 so he ended up being adopted by a bunch of 1:35:00.000 --> 1:35:02.839 anthropologists and spending the rest of his time in San Francisco. 1:35:02.840 --> 1:35:04.960 It's actually where we get most of a lot of 1:35:04.960 --> 1:35:07.960 like the anthropological knowledge of how to make arrows, because 1:35:08.000 --> 1:35:10.800 he was very much like, I'm the last of my group, 1:35:11.000 --> 1:35:13.320 so I will actually show people how to do flint 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:15.840 napping and how I make arrows and how I hunt 1:35:15.920 --> 1:35:19.240 and yeah, and that's but I mean, and that's there's 1:35:19.280 --> 1:35:21.479 kind of the point there that like, with all of 1:35:21.520 --> 1:35:23.800 those skills, being one of that very small number of people, 1:35:23.800 --> 1:35:26.040 who could you drop that guy alone with nothing in 1:35:26.080 --> 1:35:28.240 the woods and he'll figure it out. He didn't want 1:35:28.280 --> 1:35:33.439 to do that because it's miserable. He in fact went 1:35:33.720 --> 1:35:36.920 into San Francisco and was like, well, white people wiped 1:35:36.920 --> 1:35:42.760 out my entire gonna make friends with these anthropologists that 1:35:42.840 --> 1:35:45.840 live with them and teach them what I know. Yeah, again, 1:35:45.840 --> 1:35:47.360 a lot of the folks who are kind of reaching 1:35:47.360 --> 1:35:48.800 out online being like, hey, I don't have a lot 1:35:48.800 --> 1:35:50.439 in the way of money. I'm never gonna be able 1:35:50.439 --> 1:35:53.040 to move to the woods and buy a farm or something. Well, 1:35:53.080 --> 1:35:55.280 you don't. You don't really need to, And like if 1:35:55.320 --> 1:35:57.519 shi it really does hit the fan. Where you live, 1:35:57.560 --> 1:36:01.759 there's probably parks, unless it's Detroit, UM, in which case 1:36:02.320 --> 1:36:04.720 there's abandoned Walmart's. Like you can make it work, like 1:36:04.760 --> 1:36:07.479 there's it's so So this is an episode about kind 1:36:07.479 --> 1:36:10.120 of the skills that you can acquire and build for 1:36:10.200 --> 1:36:12.800 not a lot of money, more or less wherever you 1:36:12.880 --> 1:36:16.679 live that will help you build resiliency UM, but also 1:36:16.680 --> 1:36:19.200 build resiliency is part of a community, as opposed to 1:36:19.520 --> 1:36:21.760 living in the woods with a knife, sleeping under mud. 1:36:23.160 --> 1:36:25.639 There's a great short story that you'll turned me onto 1:36:25.680 --> 1:36:28.720 by Cory Doctor in a book of short stories called Radicalized. 1:36:28.760 --> 1:36:30.280 That was was it just called The Mask of the 1:36:30.320 --> 1:36:33.280 Red Death? I mean that's called The Master. Yeah. The 1:36:33.280 --> 1:36:36.240 original Mask of the Red Death is set obviously during UM. 1:36:36.240 --> 1:36:38.599 I'm sure everybody read it in high school, like right, 1:36:38.640 --> 1:36:41.439 It's is set during the Bubonic Plague with these rich 1:36:41.479 --> 1:36:43.600 people who like decided just hold up in party to 1:36:43.720 --> 1:36:46.160 escape the plague and they all die of the plague. 1:36:46.720 --> 1:36:50.759 And doctors is a bunch of like libertarians, survivalist crypto 1:36:50.840 --> 1:36:54.000 bros who build a fortress in the desert in order 1:36:54.040 --> 1:36:56.599 to survive the end of days. And it turns out 1:36:56.640 --> 1:36:58.679 that like a bunch of bad stuff happens, like there's 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:02.360 disease and in civil conflict, but like people figure it out, 1:37:02.360 --> 1:37:04.840 and all of the crypto bros die shooting themselves to 1:37:04.840 --> 1:37:10.240 death because the water system. It's obvious from the start 1:37:10.280 --> 1:37:13.200 what's going and everybody who comes along to help them, 1:37:13.360 --> 1:37:17.040 they start shooting because you will just wait until you're dead, 1:37:17.080 --> 1:37:19.880 because you're shooting yourself because your water is bad. I 1:37:19.880 --> 1:37:21.840 think we all have, we all have elements of some 1:37:21.880 --> 1:37:25.120 libertarian tendencies in US, which you know, it's not bad 1:37:25.160 --> 1:37:27.679 to learn self reliance, and it's certainly not not even 1:37:27.720 --> 1:37:30.440 bad to want to like live outside of the city. 1:37:30.800 --> 1:37:33.479 But in a lot of ways, living in a living 1:37:33.479 --> 1:37:36.680 in an urban environment surrounded by a community, depending on 1:37:36.680 --> 1:37:39.919 the situation, can be even more resilient because like, yeah, 1:37:39.960 --> 1:37:43.120 an isolated farm instead there's benefits to but also it's 1:37:43.120 --> 1:37:45.240 really easy to surround and just shoot people who were 1:37:45.439 --> 1:37:47.240 living on their farm in the middle of nowhere. If 1:37:47.320 --> 1:37:50.200 ship really does hit the fani happening, it happens all 1:37:50.240 --> 1:37:52.240 the time. It happened in like Al Salvador and ship 1:37:52.280 --> 1:37:54.519 when they had their economic crash. So, I don't know, 1:37:54.640 --> 1:37:55.840 where do you want to Where do you guys want 1:37:55.880 --> 1:37:58.360 to start? Oh? I know you had a couple of 1:37:58.400 --> 1:38:01.040 different things that you want the want to talk about, 1:38:01.080 --> 1:38:03.720 Like preserving food is a big one, and then I 1:38:03.760 --> 1:38:08.360 mean making stuff and doing things is kind of they're 1:38:08.400 --> 1:38:10.240 sort of different. Where would you like to actually start 1:38:10.280 --> 1:38:11.800 with that? I think we can start with kind of 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:14.559 the d I Y element, branching off of our original 1:38:14.560 --> 1:38:17.599 discussion on primitive skills, and then in like parts two, 1:38:17.640 --> 1:38:19.840 we can go more into like food and like sting 1:38:19.880 --> 1:38:23.760 like in like foraging, um and preservation and stuff. Cool. 1:38:24.040 --> 1:38:28.519 I mean, so d I why um? I guess now 1:38:28.560 --> 1:38:32.840 there's a lot of stuff about, Like there's I don't know, 1:38:32.880 --> 1:38:35.519 there's all this stuff of like survival skills and all 1:38:35.560 --> 1:38:38.400 this stuff, and both of us kind of came into 1:38:39.400 --> 1:38:41.160 the idea of making stuff and doing things by being 1:38:41.200 --> 1:38:45.080 punks um. And it's kind of yeah, having no money, 1:38:45.120 --> 1:38:48.720 but also just their d I Y like do it 1:38:48.720 --> 1:38:53.320 Yourself was a very like kind of nineties punk thing 1:38:53.360 --> 1:38:55.800 that came into the mainstream. Like I actually was pulling 1:38:55.800 --> 1:38:57.519 out some of my old books, and I think it's 1:38:57.560 --> 1:39:01.320 funny to see the like progression because I have, you know, 1:39:01.600 --> 1:39:04.679 the really lovely like Food Not Lawns that goes into 1:39:04.720 --> 1:39:09.040 a whole pile of really fantastic things that came out 1:39:09.400 --> 1:39:12.160 that I don't know. The first Food Not Lawns house 1:39:12.200 --> 1:39:15.439 I saw at the Town as in was in like 1:39:15.640 --> 1:39:18.240 two thousand five or six, but this book came out 1:39:18.240 --> 1:39:19.840 in two thousand and six. But it was this entire 1:39:19.920 --> 1:39:23.320 movement of like making community and doing and like how 1:39:23.360 --> 1:39:27.240 to do stuff yourself on your front lawn. Yeah, and 1:39:27.280 --> 1:39:30.880 then I have from eleven the bus d i Y 1:39:30.920 --> 1:39:33.559 Guide to Life that includes everything from like how to 1:39:33.600 --> 1:39:36.160 do worm composting to how to make your own makeup 1:39:36.320 --> 1:39:40.320 and like finance the house. And that's that's like the magazine, right. Yes, 1:39:40.720 --> 1:39:43.519 So it's kind of interesting because it definitely like was 1:39:43.560 --> 1:39:46.960 the thing that I watched come into the mainstream. But 1:39:47.680 --> 1:39:52.800 you know, it started as a lot of punks trying 1:39:52.800 --> 1:39:54.639 to figure out how to do things because they had 1:39:54.680 --> 1:39:58.800 no money and but also different from a lot of 1:39:58.840 --> 1:40:01.280 you know, like woodworking or draft books that really are 1:40:01.400 --> 1:40:04.719 you know by these seven thousand dollars worth of tools 1:40:04.800 --> 1:40:09.800 and now you too can learn Yes. And there's also 1:40:09.960 --> 1:40:13.280 there's also an ethos behind it, right that, like before 1:40:13.920 --> 1:40:16.360 I was, I came at it first and foremost through 1:40:16.400 --> 1:40:19.439 being like a bike punk in the in the late 1:40:19.560 --> 1:40:21.920 nineties early two thousand's, being a bike punk, and the 1:40:22.000 --> 1:40:25.800 idea of like the d I y ethos was less 1:40:25.840 --> 1:40:30.360 about the grid is going to collapse and like everything 1:40:30.439 --> 1:40:32.120 is going to fall apart and you're going to need 1:40:32.160 --> 1:40:34.320 to survive by the skin of your teeth, and it 1:40:34.439 --> 1:40:37.160 was a lot more, you know, at the tail end 1:40:37.200 --> 1:40:40.880 of the nineties and like the sort of golden era 1:40:41.000 --> 1:40:45.200 of neoliberal capitalism and office space and that whole cultural moment, 1:40:45.680 --> 1:40:49.920 the idea that life was alienated and shitty and it 1:40:50.080 --> 1:40:53.160 felt better to know how to do things that you 1:40:53.240 --> 1:40:56.120 needed in your day to day life for yourself, using 1:40:56.160 --> 1:40:59.320 stuff you had made yourself or gotten from your community members. 1:41:00.280 --> 1:41:03.000 Yet resiliency is less about knowing you have a pile 1:41:03.040 --> 1:41:05.040 of dried food in the house and know more about 1:41:05.160 --> 1:41:07.200 looking at fresh food and knowing, I know how to 1:41:07.240 --> 1:41:09.639 make that last the winter yeah, And it's been interesting 1:41:09.680 --> 1:41:11.880 to see the way that like as that has gotten 1:41:11.920 --> 1:41:17.840 kind of mainstreamed into like, you know, the the what 1:41:18.000 --> 1:41:21.120 is it primitive. There's a bunch of different like primitive 1:41:21.280 --> 1:41:23.920 x y Z YouTube channels that get lots of shot 1:41:24.000 --> 1:41:26.719 wreck and ship, and as that all gets mainstreamed, there's 1:41:26.760 --> 1:41:29.840 this idea of like expertise that creeps back into it. 1:41:30.240 --> 1:41:33.559 And d I Y was like firmly committed to the 1:41:33.600 --> 1:41:38.719 idea that everybody could learn stuff and listening to somebody 1:41:38.720 --> 1:41:40.920 who said they were an expert was a trap. And 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:42.200 a lot of that was coming out of like the 1:41:42.240 --> 1:41:44.360 seventies when there was all of the like you know, 1:41:44.680 --> 1:41:48.439 CULTI lifestyle ship that was like, hey, look we're gonna 1:41:48.479 --> 1:41:51.120 teach you how to change your life, and yeah, we're 1:41:51.120 --> 1:41:53.560 gonna we're gonna buy up all this land and Antelope, 1:41:53.600 --> 1:41:57.439 Oregon and and so d I Y was exactly not 1:41:57.520 --> 1:42:00.120 that it was like their's skills and you can and 1:42:00.200 --> 1:42:03.120 skills and the Internet doesn't really exist yet or not really, 1:42:03.200 --> 1:42:05.000 so you can read books about it and you can 1:42:05.120 --> 1:42:07.800 have skills fare because there wasn't Twitter. We also all 1:42:07.840 --> 1:42:12.840 had a lot more time on our hands. But there's 1:42:12.880 --> 1:42:17.960 also like expertise was something that was handy to have, 1:42:18.160 --> 1:42:22.880 you know, like if I needed to rebuild my wheel 1:42:22.960 --> 1:42:26.080 on my bike and respoke it, somebody who knew how 1:42:26.080 --> 1:42:27.760 to do it, And so it's good to have a 1:42:27.800 --> 1:42:31.799 couple of people who had really intense, deep knowledge of skills. 1:42:32.240 --> 1:42:34.800 But the idea that you would ask someone like I 1:42:34.840 --> 1:42:37.320 need to change my bike tire two because I popped 1:42:37.320 --> 1:42:39.679 it with everyone would have been kind of like really 1:42:40.080 --> 1:42:43.040 really like everyone should know how to do basic stuff 1:42:43.080 --> 1:42:45.680 and it's and it's okay. Like the whole you know, 1:42:45.840 --> 1:42:50.400 Jack of all Trades was is as a desirable goal, 1:42:50.479 --> 1:42:53.960 like it's okay to dabble in a million little things 1:42:54.080 --> 1:42:56.559 and be kind of mediocre, but have a sort of 1:42:56.600 --> 1:42:59.800 baseline understanding of a bunch of stuff. Now, you know, 1:42:59.800 --> 1:43:02.240 they places that I kind of think that we went 1:43:02.280 --> 1:43:07.200 too far. But also, you know, before the American Healthcare Act, 1:43:08.080 --> 1:43:11.240 we all definitely did a lot of at home medcare 1:43:11.280 --> 1:43:14.160 that we should not have. But there's also a lot 1:43:14.200 --> 1:43:17.360 of low stakes places that I think people have gotten 1:43:17.400 --> 1:43:21.559 away from just practicing and trying all sorts of crafty 1:43:21.600 --> 1:43:24.000 stuff as an ethos that is actually really good and 1:43:24.040 --> 1:43:27.000 there's no harm to learning things like you're not going 1:43:27.080 --> 1:43:28.800 to quote anything, and the only thing that's going to 1:43:28.880 --> 1:43:31.280 happen is you will have more skills and more to 1:43:31.360 --> 1:43:35.480 offer the people around you. There's this idea under capitalism 1:43:35.479 --> 1:43:37.600 that we should all specialize because that is like the 1:43:37.640 --> 1:43:40.840 most profit generating thing to do is just specialize anything 1:43:40.880 --> 1:43:43.080 that makes you the most money. But it's like, not 1:43:43.160 --> 1:43:47.080 only is it like not the best in a dangerous 1:43:47.080 --> 1:43:49.439 situation to only know how to do one thing that 1:43:49.479 --> 1:43:51.519 makes you money, but it's like it's not particularly good 1:43:51.560 --> 1:43:55.519 for your soul either. And there's also lots of different 1:43:55.800 --> 1:44:01.719 behavioral psychology, like group analysis of if you present people 1:44:01.760 --> 1:44:06.360 with a situation that they feel unprepared for and there's 1:44:06.000 --> 1:44:08.640 a person that they identify as an expert in a 1:44:08.680 --> 1:44:11.639 group who they can defer to pretty much every time, 1:44:11.840 --> 1:44:14.360 the group that's like, oh, we'll defer to this one 1:44:14.439 --> 1:44:18.559 expert because they know everything and we'll just do whatever 1:44:18.600 --> 1:44:22.120 they say ends up making worse decisions. Then if you 1:44:22.160 --> 1:44:25.120 have a group where everybody feels like, oh, well, I 1:44:25.240 --> 1:44:28.240 like I can at least get a handle on what's 1:44:28.280 --> 1:44:30.439 going on and we can all talk through it and 1:44:30.479 --> 1:44:36.960 like make make calls deferring to experts doesn't necessarily help 1:44:37.040 --> 1:44:41.360 you know that there's obviously cases we've mentioned medical care already, 1:44:41.400 --> 1:44:45.800 where like there's actually knowledge is very important. Skill sets 1:44:45.840 --> 1:44:48.160 are very important. But the idea that there's people who 1:44:48.240 --> 1:44:52.160 are just like, yeah, inherently more knowledgeable of things that 1:44:52.240 --> 1:44:58.400 you couldn't possibly understand. Is so where where do you 1:44:58.439 --> 1:45:01.519 recommend Like people's like, like like, you've got a bunch of 1:45:01.520 --> 1:45:03.839 books right now, and obviously, if you can afford books, 1:45:03.880 --> 1:45:09.040 that's a good call. A lot of these books on 1:45:09.120 --> 1:45:11.679 a preserving food and like growing stuff on your lawn, 1:45:11.760 --> 1:45:14.320 but even if you don't have a lawn, you can still, Like, 1:45:14.360 --> 1:45:16.639 there's certain like one thing that strikes me because we've 1:45:16.640 --> 1:45:19.880 been canning and pickling a bunch lately, is you know, 1:45:20.080 --> 1:45:23.479 different vegetables and fruits and whatnot are cheaper at different 1:45:23.479 --> 1:45:25.320 points in the year. And even if you live in 1:45:25.360 --> 1:45:28.120 an apartment in the inner city and will never have 1:45:28.200 --> 1:45:30.960 more than a garden box at best, you can buy 1:45:31.000 --> 1:45:34.519 food when it's cheap and preserve it um and not 1:45:34.600 --> 1:45:36.800 only save yourself a little bit of money, but you 1:45:36.840 --> 1:45:41.600 can like also, uh, you'll you'll understand every time you 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:44.360 encounter preserved food and like a grocery store. You'll be 1:45:44.360 --> 1:45:46.599 looking at a thing that you know where it comes from. 1:45:46.640 --> 1:45:49.240 It's not just like a mystery jar of preserved food 1:45:49.280 --> 1:45:53.400 that was made by some process of science. So I 1:45:53.439 --> 1:45:56.639 don't know, I'm interested in, like where you guys someone 1:45:56.720 --> 1:46:00.760 coming in having only uh specialized and whatever it is 1:46:00.800 --> 1:46:03.880 allowed them to pay the rent? Where Where where's your 1:46:03.880 --> 1:46:07.800 where's your recommended start point? For people? UM, I think 1:46:07.800 --> 1:46:12.640 it's picking something that is low stakes that you enjoy. 1:46:12.680 --> 1:46:17.200 Like honestly, one of my friends, um, her entry into 1:46:17.240 --> 1:46:20.559 doing d I Y stuff was, you know, she had 1:46:20.640 --> 1:46:22.280 lots of makeup and everything, and she was like, I'm 1:46:22.280 --> 1:46:24.599 going to make body scrubs? How do I do that? 1:46:24.760 --> 1:46:27.719 And you know, looked up how to make body scrubs? 1:46:27.720 --> 1:46:30.000 How to make you know. A lot of it is, 1:46:30.120 --> 1:46:34.479 oh getting salt and grinding up rosemary that she found 1:46:34.520 --> 1:46:37.040 in someone's front yard and putting it together, you know, 1:46:37.200 --> 1:46:41.439 but just something simple that you enjoy, that you would 1:46:41.840 --> 1:46:44.880 love to be able to, you know, have a little 1:46:44.920 --> 1:46:49.160 bit more say over because it's most basic. A lot 1:46:49.160 --> 1:46:50.599 of the d I Y stuff is you can make 1:46:50.640 --> 1:46:55.360 something very specific to what you like. So for myself, 1:46:55.360 --> 1:46:57.200 actually one of the first things I ever started doing 1:46:57.240 --> 1:47:00.360 was in high school, just altering clothing. I had an 1:47:00.360 --> 1:47:07.120 old yeah, I had an old thirty dollar junk practice 1:47:07.560 --> 1:47:11.240 uh like kids sewing machine and just the cheapest one 1:47:11.280 --> 1:47:17.040 that Sears used to sell, and could definitely just take 1:47:17.120 --> 1:47:20.519 that and start putting scenes in an altar clothing. And 1:47:20.680 --> 1:47:22.400 like this shirt is now a T shirt, it was 1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:25.880 long sleep before. And that also ties in with you know, 1:47:26.200 --> 1:47:28.439 d I I just to sound like old punks for 1:47:28.479 --> 1:47:30.760 a minute. That d I I definitely also came out 1:47:30.840 --> 1:47:33.439 of things like the riot girl scene in a big way, 1:47:33.560 --> 1:47:38.479 and like the attention to like body awareness and like 1:47:38.640 --> 1:47:43.160 moving away from body negativity and the recognition that as 1:47:43.160 --> 1:47:47.000 a general rule, off the rack clothes are not and 1:47:47.160 --> 1:47:52.519 certainly twenty years ago were extra not actually designed to 1:47:52.640 --> 1:47:55.519 fit most people's bodies, and it was hard to find 1:47:55.600 --> 1:47:58.599 clothes that fit you right. And yeah, so like sewing 1:47:58.720 --> 1:48:03.240 was a big one. Bikes because we were broken, didn't 1:48:03.280 --> 1:48:05.559 have cars, so figuring out how to fix bikes and 1:48:05.640 --> 1:48:08.920 you know, everything that mechanically happens on a bike is 1:48:09.040 --> 1:48:10.800 right there and you can see it happen, and it 1:48:10.840 --> 1:48:14.200 maybe requires a screwdriver and then eventually maybe some other 1:48:14.200 --> 1:48:16.840 tools but there's lots of and there's three resources. A 1:48:16.880 --> 1:48:19.160 lot most cities I've spent any amount of time and 1:48:19.200 --> 1:48:21.920 you can find like you can find like a community 1:48:21.920 --> 1:48:24.120 bike shop where if you have to pay anything, it's 1:48:24.200 --> 1:48:26.000 very minimal, And a lot of cases are just sort 1:48:26.000 --> 1:48:29.639 of like show up and you know there's space to use. 1:48:29.880 --> 1:48:33.920 Yeah when um, Like I know in Santa Cruz there 1:48:33.960 --> 1:48:36.200 was the bike Church. In Portland there's the bike Farm 1:48:36.400 --> 1:48:38.880 and yeah, and Philly there was also a bike church 1:48:38.920 --> 1:48:41.719 because it turns out the basements of churches are are 1:48:41.720 --> 1:48:43.559 There were a couple of spots like that in Dallas 1:48:43.640 --> 1:48:46.160 and it's uh yeah. And I think it is like 1:48:46.200 --> 1:48:49.000 this mix of, like with the body scrub stuff, like 1:48:49.040 --> 1:48:51.200 what is something that appeals to you that you you're 1:48:51.200 --> 1:48:53.240 interested in? And also what is with the bike stuff, 1:48:53.520 --> 1:48:56.640 what is something that's like just doggedly practical, Like you 1:48:56.680 --> 1:48:58.639 get a bike, you need a bike to get around, 1:48:58.640 --> 1:49:01.200 you should probably know how to ship on it. I 1:49:01.240 --> 1:49:03.280 think the reason I say you should pick something that 1:49:03.520 --> 1:49:09.360 appeals to you especially is because a big thing with 1:49:09.680 --> 1:49:12.080 d I Y was that you're doing it yourself, and 1:49:13.360 --> 1:49:15.679 there are so many skills that are valuable to learn 1:49:15.720 --> 1:49:18.879 from other people. It is wonderful to craft in community, 1:49:18.920 --> 1:49:21.599 it is wonderful to work with other people in community. 1:49:21.680 --> 1:49:25.040 It's wonderful to teach skills and gain them. But also 1:49:26.240 --> 1:49:30.840 I've seen this growing idea with the as specialization for 1:49:31.439 --> 1:49:35.320 so many things, especially services comes in that people are 1:49:35.320 --> 1:49:38.920 always like, oh, wow, knitting, I've always wanted to learn. 1:49:39.000 --> 1:49:40.559 I need to take a class in that, or I 1:49:40.600 --> 1:49:43.280 need to And it's really important, I think, for people 1:49:43.320 --> 1:49:47.920 to realize that you can learn things. We are very 1:49:47.960 --> 1:49:50.559 good at learning things, and you don't necessarily need a 1:49:50.600 --> 1:49:53.360 teacher for more complex things you do. But starting with 1:49:53.439 --> 1:49:57.120 something that you really like and that you find really interesting, 1:49:57.439 --> 1:50:00.559 you've already thought about it. So when you start with 1:50:00.600 --> 1:50:03.400 you know, for my friends, starting with making bath salts 1:50:03.400 --> 1:50:05.559 and face masks and stuff, it was something she had 1:50:05.560 --> 1:50:09.280 already been thinking about quite a bit and thinking about stuff. 1:50:09.280 --> 1:50:12.000 So when she started looking at recipes to mix and 1:50:12.040 --> 1:50:14.360 looking on the internet and looking at ingredients, it was 1:50:14.400 --> 1:50:18.120 saying she already cared about. So it's easier to learn 1:50:18.200 --> 1:50:20.600 something that you are interested in, and it's easier to 1:50:20.640 --> 1:50:24.439 learn something that you want to do. But we are 1:50:24.479 --> 1:50:29.120 all capable of learning for ourselves, not every single thing, 1:50:29.120 --> 1:50:31.960 but especially just for craft projects. And so starting with 1:50:32.000 --> 1:50:34.000 that so that you can pick up a book, or 1:50:34.080 --> 1:50:36.040 you can read an article, or you can watch a 1:50:36.080 --> 1:50:38.960 YouTube video and you don't need to take some like 1:50:39.720 --> 1:50:43.839 hundred and fifty dollar a weekend class before you can. It's, 1:50:43.880 --> 1:50:46.479 you know, a big part of the resiliency building. Like 1:50:46.520 --> 1:50:49.640 something you may scoff like when you're thinking about survivalism 1:50:50.400 --> 1:50:52.840 and talking about like making bath scrubs, but a lot 1:50:52.880 --> 1:50:56.160 of the skills you would learn putting that together are 1:50:56.280 --> 1:50:59.880 useful in making like a salve or making like a soap, 1:51:00.200 --> 1:51:02.840 making soap things that you actually need. Like when I 1:51:02.920 --> 1:51:05.160 was traveling, I lived on the road, like out of 1:51:05.160 --> 1:51:07.320 a car and out of backpacks, off and on all 1:51:07.320 --> 1:51:08.680 over the world for years, and I would make my 1:51:08.720 --> 1:51:10.840 own medicated because we would get we would be get 1:51:10.840 --> 1:51:13.360 cuts and scrapes and rashes, and we were poor as 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:15.479 ship and often there weren't doctors where we were. So 1:51:15.560 --> 1:51:18.200 I learned how to use things like plantain and comfrey 1:51:18.240 --> 1:51:20.720 and yarrow and like bees wax and stuff in order 1:51:20.760 --> 1:51:23.960 to to make medicated savs. And it it was something 1:51:24.000 --> 1:51:26.200 that interested me. But like there's also a lot of 1:51:26.680 --> 1:51:29.760 like there's there's a number of roots into learning that 1:51:29.840 --> 1:51:31.320 sort of thing. And if you're learning how to make 1:51:31.360 --> 1:51:34.439 again something as simple as like a face scrub, learning 1:51:34.720 --> 1:51:37.559 where to find that information for free learning some of 1:51:37.560 --> 1:51:40.840 like the basic techniques in order to do that. The 1:51:41.720 --> 1:51:45.320 learning how to learn is is applicable in a wider 1:51:45.400 --> 1:51:48.680 variety of skill sets, and it I think it's so 1:51:48.720 --> 1:51:51.920 important to focus on what are you what are you 1:51:51.960 --> 1:51:54.160 interested in first, as as opposed to just being like 1:51:54.200 --> 1:51:55.920 okay at first, Now I have to learn how to 1:51:55.960 --> 1:51:58.599 like splint a broken arm, because like the ship's gonna 1:51:58.760 --> 1:52:00.880 hit the fans, like well, to be focus on something 1:52:00.880 --> 1:52:03.439 that's more exciting to you first, and and and and 1:52:03.479 --> 1:52:05.760 build time in your life to learn things. That's an 1:52:05.880 --> 1:52:08.479 enjoyable process. One of the first things I did, like 1:52:08.600 --> 1:52:11.519 years ago, was I learned to sew, specifically to make 1:52:11.560 --> 1:52:14.400 a cause play because you know so, so I would 1:52:14.439 --> 1:52:17.200 just I would make me and my whole family different 1:52:17.200 --> 1:52:19.280 outfits for comic Con. So every year I would, I 1:52:19.320 --> 1:52:21.720 would sew us whole whole new things. But then not 1:52:21.720 --> 1:52:23.400 only taught me sewing, it taught me how to do 1:52:23.479 --> 1:52:27.320 like like vacuum forming to molding, how to use like 1:52:27.360 --> 1:52:29.439 a heat gun, how to use like all these other 1:52:29.479 --> 1:52:32.599 types of tools. Um, how do you like molding and casting? 1:52:32.720 --> 1:52:35.840 Like all of these types of things I learned just 1:52:36.000 --> 1:52:38.280 wanting to make silly costumes. But now they're like, you know, 1:52:38.479 --> 1:52:40.280 useful and a lot, a lot, a lot of other ways. 1:52:40.680 --> 1:52:43.280 And that can be that can be expensive at the 1:52:43.360 --> 1:52:46.439 high end when you're like vacuum forming and stuff your 1:52:46.479 --> 1:52:49.599 storm trooper armor. But the the cheapest side of that 1:52:49.680 --> 1:52:52.400 thing again, you can get a basic hand sewing kit 1:52:52.479 --> 1:52:54.960 for like five dollars from a Walmart. And there's also 1:52:55.000 --> 1:52:59.240 makers and there's maker spaces and like YouTube will do 1:52:59.280 --> 1:53:01.000 the teaching, you know, have to pay for a teacher. 1:53:01.000 --> 1:53:03.479 The Taliban learned how to fly helicopters. On YouTube, you 1:53:03.520 --> 1:53:06.120 can learn how to fix your pants. And then I 1:53:06.160 --> 1:53:09.519 think also you mentioned specialization before. It's come up a 1:53:09.520 --> 1:53:12.479 couple of times, um, and there is you know, the 1:53:12.520 --> 1:53:16.400 idea of specialization. The rationale behind specialization is, oh, well, 1:53:16.400 --> 1:53:18.640 you'll be better at it because that's what you do 1:53:18.680 --> 1:53:22.240 all the time. But that cuts both ways, because if 1:53:22.280 --> 1:53:25.000 you only do one thing all the time, then as 1:53:25.280 --> 1:53:28.600 you know, whatever the maximum threshold of your abilities is 1:53:28.640 --> 1:53:32.240 that's required of you that becomes your baseline, like whatever 1:53:32.600 --> 1:53:34.439 in your day to day life, whatever it is that 1:53:34.479 --> 1:53:37.760 you're being asked to do, that's what you feel capable of. 1:53:38.120 --> 1:53:41.000 And on the flip side, there's with with the d 1:53:41.120 --> 1:53:44.280 I I approach with like teaching yourself ship, learning interesting ship. 1:53:44.880 --> 1:53:48.360 It's also practical and important and useful to be like 1:53:48.439 --> 1:53:50.120 this is a thing that I'm gonna do on a 1:53:50.160 --> 1:53:53.559 regular basis, so I'll get better at it. But also 1:53:53.640 --> 1:53:56.439 it's not you know, there was you know, the whole 1:53:56.479 --> 1:53:59.719 idea of there's what you do and then there's your job, 1:53:59.800 --> 1:54:02.400 and that these need not be the same thing, because 1:54:02.520 --> 1:54:05.759 you want to be able to think, think through things 1:54:06.000 --> 1:54:08.760 in a way that's not the way you're supposed to 1:54:08.760 --> 1:54:11.479 process things to make your boss happy. That is not 1:54:11.960 --> 1:54:13.800 what you do when you clock. And you are more 1:54:13.840 --> 1:54:16.920 than your career, more than your career, and and and 1:54:17.640 --> 1:54:21.519 your skill set need not be purely extracted, as you know, 1:54:21.680 --> 1:54:24.200 not just like Okay, I have to go do the 1:54:24.200 --> 1:54:26.280 thing in order to make money, and then everything else 1:54:26.400 --> 1:54:30.120 is consumption, like you can you can transition like we're 1:54:30.920 --> 1:54:33.240 and this is not a societal level solution because we 1:54:33.280 --> 1:54:35.000 talk a lot about like, well, yeah, you're not gonna 1:54:35.000 --> 1:54:37.720 You're not gonna make small personal changes to fix climate change, 1:54:38.120 --> 1:54:41.839 but changing your own particular attitude on how you approach 1:54:41.880 --> 1:54:44.520 the world from one that is I I produce and 1:54:44.560 --> 1:54:47.840 that I consume to to when we're you're thinking more 1:54:47.840 --> 1:54:49.680 about resiliency and what do I know how to do 1:54:49.720 --> 1:54:52.160 and what can I learn how to do? UM is 1:54:53.040 --> 1:54:58.000 helpful in a variety of ways. On the note of 1:54:58.120 --> 1:55:02.680 you know, the transfer ability of skills and recognizing that 1:55:02.760 --> 1:55:04.880 you already do things on a day to day basis 1:55:04.880 --> 1:55:08.760 that requires specialized knowledge and require skill sets. UM. One 1:55:08.760 --> 1:55:11.120 of the things that I try and trot out at 1:55:11.120 --> 1:55:13.840 every possible opportunity. I worked with somebody in one of 1:55:13.840 --> 1:55:18.560 those volunteer bike shop spaces down New Orleans years ago, UM, 1:55:18.640 --> 1:55:22.400 and the whole purpose of that particular space was to 1:55:22.600 --> 1:55:26.200 make the skill set of bike repair more accessible to 1:55:26.360 --> 1:55:30.080 a population that relied on bikes to get places. And 1:55:30.360 --> 1:55:33.160 one of the folks I worked there with was like 1:55:33.520 --> 1:55:36.960 a very fami lady and was great because we would 1:55:37.040 --> 1:55:39.120 have young girls come into the shop and be like, 1:55:39.160 --> 1:55:41.440 my bike doesn't work. Somebody fixed my bike. My bike 1:55:41.480 --> 1:55:43.040 doesn't work. I don't know how to fix a bike, 1:55:43.760 --> 1:55:45.280 and she was the one who would just be like, 1:55:46.560 --> 1:55:48.520 your tires flat and they'd be like, yeah, I don't 1:55:48.520 --> 1:55:50.160 know how to fix it. Can you fix it? And 1:55:50.200 --> 1:55:52.440 she'd be like, well, you're wearing press on nails, right, 1:55:53.200 --> 1:55:55.000 and I'd be like yeah, like cool, how do you 1:55:55.000 --> 1:55:56.680 put on your press on nails? And they'd walked through 1:55:56.680 --> 1:55:59.000 the steps of like, well, you sand your nails and 1:55:59.040 --> 1:56:01.080 then you put the glue on your nails, and then 1:56:01.160 --> 1:56:04.160 you hold the press on nails on your fingernails for 1:56:04.160 --> 1:56:06.240 a little while and let them set, and then you're 1:56:06.280 --> 1:56:08.120 going to go. And she's like, great, you've just described 1:56:08.160 --> 1:56:11.120 exactly how you patch a bike inner tube. So now 1:56:11.160 --> 1:56:12.880 we just need to get the bike inner tube out, 1:56:13.280 --> 1:56:15.360 and here's the part that corresponds to your nail, and 1:56:15.400 --> 1:56:17.760 here's the part that corresponse like, here's the glue, and 1:56:17.800 --> 1:56:20.280 here's the you know, it's the same process. We just 1:56:20.320 --> 1:56:21.800 have to get the bike inner two out and then 1:56:21.840 --> 1:56:23.320 back in again. But you already know how to do 1:56:23.360 --> 1:56:25.120 the part where you make the bike could work again. 1:56:25.880 --> 1:56:28.320 And that does hit on another important like you know, 1:56:28.400 --> 1:56:31.320 apocalypse or whatever survival point where again all of our 1:56:31.400 --> 1:56:34.160 like fiction and movies focuses on like knowing how to 1:56:34.240 --> 1:56:36.800 use a gun, or like being a woodsman. One of 1:56:36.880 --> 1:56:39.840 the most useful skills, maybe the most useful skill you 1:56:39.840 --> 1:56:42.240 can have in any disaster situation, is being able to 1:56:42.240 --> 1:56:45.960 teach people, like like knowing how to understand figure out 1:56:45.960 --> 1:56:48.200 what people know, and how to get them the additional 1:56:48.240 --> 1:56:52.200 information they need in order to be more resilient and competent, 1:56:52.280 --> 1:56:55.040 because you're always better in a community of people who 1:56:55.120 --> 1:56:58.800 know to handle their ship than alone. And it builds 1:56:58.800 --> 1:57:02.000 on itself too. You know, we both come from different backgrounds, 1:57:02.000 --> 1:57:04.919 but as we've been together and with the different trainings 1:57:04.960 --> 1:57:07.720 that we've had in just life, the projects that we 1:57:07.800 --> 1:57:10.960 take on have become more and more complex. So you know, 1:57:11.200 --> 1:57:15.720 where I used to like to practice gardening and stuff 1:57:15.840 --> 1:57:18.120 and doing a little bit of woodworking and things, and 1:57:18.160 --> 1:57:22.640 now you know, we're doing various construction projects that we're 1:57:22.680 --> 1:57:25.160 kind of self taught, and we have some various home 1:57:25.200 --> 1:57:27.920 depot books on how to do them. But it's it 1:57:27.960 --> 1:57:30.800 doesn't feel nearly as intimidating because we've done steps to 1:57:30.920 --> 1:57:33.600 go to it, and because it's not an all or nothing, 1:57:33.640 --> 1:57:35.200 you don't have to suddenly be like I'm going to 1:57:35.320 --> 1:57:38.240 d I why my entire life. Like I definitely get 1:57:38.280 --> 1:57:40.400 that way sometimes where I'm like, I want to one 1:57:40.480 --> 1:57:42.920 day have everything in my house be made by someone 1:57:43.320 --> 1:57:47.040 that I know or myself, and it's really lovely to 1:57:47.080 --> 1:57:49.680 know crafts people or to you know, make do sit 1:57:49.680 --> 1:57:51.320 down at a pottery wheel and make your own bowls 1:57:51.400 --> 1:57:54.880 or whatever. But a lot of it is about practicing 1:57:54.920 --> 1:57:57.840 stuff when it's not an emergency so that when you 1:57:57.920 --> 1:58:01.280 later on have need or you have the ability, you 1:58:01.320 --> 1:58:04.120 have the time, like you can do a bunch of 1:58:04.160 --> 1:58:09.920 different things. So you know, we refloored the room that 1:58:09.960 --> 1:58:14.240 we're in right now the process, but we didn't get 1:58:14.320 --> 1:58:16.800 there from nothing. And we've both done lots of different 1:58:16.840 --> 1:58:19.600 construction and measuring and other things in little bits just 1:58:19.760 --> 1:58:24.000 for fun, for work, for other stuff beforehand. And a 1:58:24.040 --> 1:58:26.400 lot of these projects are things that are fun to 1:58:26.480 --> 1:58:32.000 do as a one off as a project. I've done, 1:58:32.080 --> 1:58:35.080 you know, embroidery with my kids just for fun, not 1:58:35.200 --> 1:58:39.480 because they need to suddenly embroider all of their clothing 1:58:39.840 --> 1:58:42.680 or they have to sew everything, but it's because it's 1:58:42.680 --> 1:58:45.400 a fun thing to do on a rainy day, or 1:58:46.200 --> 1:58:50.040 you know, try fixing a book, not because there's no 1:58:50.120 --> 1:58:53.720 ability to go on Amazon and order another book. But hey, look, 1:58:53.760 --> 1:58:55.800 I just we didn't add one thing to the landfill waste, 1:58:55.840 --> 1:58:58.440 and we don't have to fix all of the stuff 1:58:58.440 --> 1:59:00.920 we have. It's a one time prep but then later 1:59:00.960 --> 1:59:03.760 on when stuff's falling apart, or when we have supply 1:59:03.840 --> 1:59:08.520 chain issues, or when stuff's not there, it's handy to know, like, oh, 1:59:08.600 --> 1:59:11.080 you know what, Like we're having water rationing right now, 1:59:11.200 --> 1:59:14.120 because during the one of the droughts I grew up 1:59:14.120 --> 1:59:16.440 in California, we had water rationing and it was my 1:59:16.480 --> 1:59:19.760 mom hauled out of the basement my grandmother's old ringer 1:59:19.840 --> 1:59:22.320 machine and we were doing the laundry and that because 1:59:22.440 --> 1:59:25.000 it could conserved a hell of a lot of water 1:59:25.080 --> 1:59:27.680 and you could use the same water for load after load. 1:59:28.400 --> 1:59:31.720 It's good to just have those things just kind of 1:59:31.720 --> 1:59:34.360 on hand that you've tried, because when an emergency hits, 1:59:34.680 --> 1:59:36.480 you don't want to be trying to search the internet 1:59:36.480 --> 1:59:38.800 are looking for something because you've never done it before 1:59:38.880 --> 1:59:42.960 and now it's necessary. And it's it's again to the 1:59:42.960 --> 1:59:47.000 point of like how the how collapse really looks versus 1:59:47.000 --> 1:59:49.760 how it's often pictured. You're not trying to replicate when 1:59:49.760 --> 1:59:51.760 you're when you're doing your own laundry that way, you're 1:59:51.760 --> 1:59:55.080 not trying to replace civilization. You're patching a hole, like 1:59:55.200 --> 1:59:57.640 and and that's a lot of building resiliency is knowing 1:59:57.640 --> 1:59:59.120 that you have. It's like it's being able to fix 1:59:59.160 --> 2:00:00.840 a bike tire, it's pat ching a hole. And I 2:00:00.920 --> 2:00:05.680 do want to acknowledge that, like this is a little 2:00:05.680 --> 2:00:09.800 bit more outside of the dead center of mainstream in 2:00:10.280 --> 2:00:13.640 you know, the United States and some other like wealthy 2:00:13.680 --> 2:00:18.879 industrialized countries. And it's not like it has never stopped 2:00:18.920 --> 2:00:21.840 being the way most people in the world kind of. 2:00:22.200 --> 2:00:25.320 I have one story to tell from these people I 2:00:25.440 --> 2:00:28.000 was billeted with in Iraq. These these guys were like 2:00:28.000 --> 2:00:30.960 pulling people out of air strike craters every day, and 2:00:31.000 --> 2:00:32.960 we wanted to watch TV. One nine. We were in 2:00:33.000 --> 2:00:35.600 like a bombed out mosque that Isis had been using, 2:00:35.720 --> 2:00:38.440 and they had a refrigerator that worked in a TV 2:00:38.560 --> 2:00:40.840 that Isis had cut the chords with. And this guy 2:00:41.040 --> 2:00:44.040 just started pulling chords out of the fridge in about 2:00:44.120 --> 2:00:46.760 five minutes, had the TV working, had like hooked it, 2:00:46.880 --> 2:00:49.000 lashed everything together. It was like he wasn't a TV 2:00:49.080 --> 2:00:51.880 repairment or refridge. He just knew how electricity and ship 2:00:51.880 --> 2:00:53.520 worked and was able to figure out like, Okay, I 2:00:53.520 --> 2:00:55.760 can just put all this ship together, We're good to go. 2:00:55.960 --> 2:00:57.960 And and just also to loop back around to the 2:00:58.000 --> 2:01:01.560 whole like survival mentality a little bit. One of the 2:01:01.680 --> 2:01:05.080 things that like people that we've worked with, people who 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:11.120 like have been in emergency situations that require, you know, 2:01:11.280 --> 2:01:14.760 complex skill sets and things of one of the big 2:01:14.840 --> 2:01:18.960 things is to have a role that you are competent 2:01:19.120 --> 2:01:23.640 in that you are ready to fulfill. So you don't 2:01:23.680 --> 2:01:27.640 have to figure out your first step. You can get moving. 2:01:27.720 --> 2:01:30.320 You can figure out your first step. So for example, 2:01:30.840 --> 2:01:33.440 in the you know, the supply chain issues that hit 2:01:33.480 --> 2:01:38.040 at the start of COVID and are recurring, um, the 2:01:38.400 --> 2:01:42.680 idea of like oh there's no way to like there's 2:01:42.720 --> 2:01:47.280 no laundry soap. Say okay, well we've got borax and 2:01:47.360 --> 2:01:52.920 these other making soda borax, right, we can we can 2:01:52.960 --> 2:01:55.920 make our own laundry detergent in a pinch and it'll 2:01:55.960 --> 2:01:58.960 work well enough. Cool. Don't have to have that be 2:01:59.040 --> 2:02:01.600 the thing that stresses us out and like adds to 2:02:01.840 --> 2:02:05.280 our like paralysis. Yeah, and get a huge part of 2:02:05.280 --> 2:02:07.120 it is even how you approach the problem it's not 2:02:07.200 --> 2:02:09.720 freaking out like, oh my god, there's no laundry soap, 2:02:09.880 --> 2:02:11.440 how am I going to clean and close? It's being like, oh, 2:02:11.440 --> 2:02:15.040 there's no laundry soap, I'm gonna go online because we 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:16.960 still have that and try to figure out either other 2:02:17.040 --> 2:02:19.320 things that can make laundry soap that there are, And 2:02:19.360 --> 2:02:22.960 like it's it's accepting. Like you talk about like wanting 2:02:23.000 --> 2:02:25.080 to be competent in a role, you don't have to 2:02:25.120 --> 2:02:26.920 know what that is from the start, as long as 2:02:26.960 --> 2:02:29.440 like the starting point isn't I'm going to be the 2:02:29.480 --> 2:02:31.480 medic I'm going to be this, I'm gonna be the 2:02:31.680 --> 2:02:34.000 food or it's like no, I'm going to start learning 2:02:34.000 --> 2:02:35.840 how to do things I don't know how to do, 2:02:36.440 --> 2:02:39.440 and over a period of time, if I am dedicated 2:02:39.480 --> 2:02:41.280 that I will figure out the thing that I want 2:02:41.280 --> 2:02:44.800 to get most competent at. Yeah, because I mean, none 2:02:44.840 --> 2:02:47.520 of none of what we've been talking about in terms 2:02:47.560 --> 2:02:51.400 of the various crafts and projects that we've undertaken are 2:02:51.440 --> 2:02:55.880 things that are like our primary function in the world. 2:02:56.160 --> 2:02:59.080 It's just like, well, at some point it seemed like 2:02:59.120 --> 2:03:01.520 it was worth new, and so we did some of it, 2:03:01.560 --> 2:03:04.320 and then we kept doing it now, and there's always 2:03:04.440 --> 2:03:09.320 pretty good. Literally everything we've talked about. There's the you're 2:03:09.360 --> 2:03:12.720 a I don't know, bougie hipster version of like doing 2:03:12.800 --> 2:03:15.000 it expensively. Even with like woodworking, there could be a 2:03:15.080 --> 2:03:17.440 dirt cheap. I built a table for almost nothing when 2:03:17.440 --> 2:03:19.480 I was younger because it was like, well, I found 2:03:19.480 --> 2:03:22.240 this would that the city chopped down, and I bought 2:03:22.280 --> 2:03:25.480 sand paper and staying for fifteen dollars, and then I 2:03:25.520 --> 2:03:28.280 got like a fucking base for my Ikea and I 2:03:28.320 --> 2:03:30.919 had a functional table and I figured it out using YouTube. 2:03:31.360 --> 2:03:33.600 And it's you know, not as good a table as 2:03:33.600 --> 2:03:35.800 I could have made if I had ten or thousands 2:03:35.840 --> 2:03:38.120 of dollars in woodworking tools, but I had a table 2:03:38.160 --> 2:03:41.440 for years because of it um and it's it's accepting 2:03:41.480 --> 2:03:44.640 the because I think people do get freaked out. There's 2:03:44.680 --> 2:03:47.600 such an emphasis on like having the gear, getting the equipment, 2:03:47.680 --> 2:03:53.920 stockpiling things, and like really stockpiling competency is better because yeah, 2:03:54.200 --> 2:03:56.720 and I think the Amazon wish list ability to just 2:03:56.760 --> 2:03:58.960 be like, oh, I want this specific thing, I can 2:03:59.080 --> 2:04:01.400 in three seconds look it up online and find the 2:04:01.400 --> 2:04:05.240 exact thing that I want definitely pushes in the opposite 2:04:05.280 --> 2:04:08.720 direction and makes people a little less resilient in that 2:04:08.760 --> 2:04:11.160 capacity because there's less of that idea that you can 2:04:11.160 --> 2:04:12.840 just have stuff. And I would just say, if people 2:04:12.880 --> 2:04:16.680 want to get started with it, it's really pick something 2:04:16.800 --> 2:04:23.640 low stakes, pick something simple, because you build the abilities, 2:04:23.960 --> 2:04:27.480 you build the ability to learn. And um, I hadn't 2:04:27.520 --> 2:04:30.720 explained to me once. It's like a hangar. Every skill 2:04:30.840 --> 2:04:33.879 you get X as a hangar, and having really basic, 2:04:34.040 --> 2:04:38.280 simple things is actually super necessary because even even the 2:04:38.400 --> 2:04:43.040 like hardcore primitive skills. I have some amazing books that 2:04:43.160 --> 2:04:47.440 I bought when I was eighteen, and I remember I 2:04:47.480 --> 2:04:49.120 had them and I looked through and I read it 2:04:49.160 --> 2:04:53.240 and I was like, this is like reading magic. I 2:04:53.360 --> 2:04:57.080 understand absolutely none of it. And after a few years 2:04:57.160 --> 2:05:01.360 of doing things, not even necessarily a traditional skills, but 2:05:01.440 --> 2:05:06.600 just things, practicing stuff, picking stuff, there was so much 2:05:06.680 --> 2:05:09.400 more framework that I had that I looked through and 2:05:09.440 --> 2:05:12.879 suddenly there was stuff concepts that I could hang all 2:05:12.920 --> 2:05:17.920 of these incredible skills on. And we're like, oh, that 2:05:18.040 --> 2:05:20.880 never made sense to me. I understand it now because 2:05:20.880 --> 2:05:24.160 I've done simpler things and starting with thing that doesn't 2:05:24.160 --> 2:05:28.320 seem like overwhelming to learn something simple and something something 2:05:28.360 --> 2:05:31.480 most stakes something that if you utterly mess it up, 2:05:31.880 --> 2:05:35.720 if you have a what are the like like the 2:05:35.840 --> 2:05:39.520 regrets the like craft epic craft failed that it's okay, 2:05:39.560 --> 2:05:42.680 it's not a big deal because failing is part of learning. 2:05:43.000 --> 2:05:45.520 And so pick things that it's okay to fail at 2:05:45.560 --> 2:05:48.520 as your as your projects and and don't as many 2:05:48.560 --> 2:05:51.000 of us did in the late nineties and early two 2:05:51.080 --> 2:05:54.280 thousand's when we didn't have health insurance of any description, 2:05:54.720 --> 2:05:57.680 you know, experiment on ourselves and our friends with herbs 2:05:57.800 --> 2:06:00.920 because we didn't have healthcare access to dr avoid doing 2:06:00.960 --> 2:06:05.280 that is not low stakes. Yeah, I'm about to go 2:06:05.360 --> 2:06:08.320 do open surgery on my own infected wound now that 2:06:08.360 --> 2:06:11.360 you've told me this, and I'm really excited, really excited. 2:06:11.760 --> 2:06:14.680 I got I got an exact deal, I got some vodka. 2:06:14.920 --> 2:06:18.560 At least we're good to go. No, the key is 2:06:18.720 --> 2:06:24.920 really hot glue, same as surgical stitch. I have not 2:06:26.640 --> 2:06:31.120 because then it sterilizes the wound, really doesn't stick to anything. 2:06:31.600 --> 2:06:33.280 This is how I know you are not a crafter. 2:06:33.520 --> 2:06:37.560 Is hot glue does not anything. You just you squirt 2:06:37.600 --> 2:06:38.960 it in there, You get it in there real good, 2:06:38.960 --> 2:06:41.520 and then you cover it with with superglue. I do 2:06:41.560 --> 2:06:43.840 have a grandpa that has blue plug in the world. 2:06:44.040 --> 2:06:46.560 I would put superglue in first. I do have a 2:06:46.560 --> 2:06:49.800 grandpa that has used superglue so many times to glue 2:06:49.840 --> 2:06:54.440 his body back together. It is actually that's very funny. 2:06:54.480 --> 2:06:58.960 It's effective at that. Anyway, here's our medical advice. Yeah, 2:06:59.440 --> 2:07:01.480 don't do it of the things that were just said. 2:07:01.720 --> 2:07:03.839 But if you do want to learn how to do suitsus, 2:07:03.920 --> 2:07:06.240 you can find guides where people do it on Chicken, 2:07:06.280 --> 2:07:07.640 which is how if you're an e M T you 2:07:07.720 --> 2:07:09.680 learn how to do it. And it's that's a that 2:07:09.800 --> 2:07:11.760 is a skill you can build for very little money. 2:07:11.760 --> 2:07:13.480 That's useful and you don't have to start on your 2:07:13.520 --> 2:07:16.960 friends bodies. And I will put in a plug for like, 2:07:17.280 --> 2:07:22.400 wilderness first aid courses are not cheap and there are 2:07:22.480 --> 2:07:25.080 some real good ones out there, and as a as 2:07:25.160 --> 2:07:28.640 like a baseline that is a real handy and helps 2:07:28.680 --> 2:07:32.000 you think about things creatively because wilderness first aid unlike 2:07:32.200 --> 2:07:34.560 an ambulance driver. An ambulance driver is driving in a 2:07:34.600 --> 2:07:37.080 box with all the tools they need, and wilderness first 2:07:37.080 --> 2:07:40.640 aid the assumption is don't have a box. You don't 2:07:40.640 --> 2:07:42.880 have to and so you have to work it out 2:07:43.040 --> 2:07:47.000 probably you know, uh, some plantain or something or some 2:07:47.160 --> 2:07:49.480 the right fucking kind of sap. There's like ship you 2:07:49.520 --> 2:07:53.120 can use which we will not proceed to attempt to 2:07:53.160 --> 2:07:57.160 lift off here and provide medical advice. Don't go to 2:07:57.240 --> 2:08:02.720 a doctor, No use playing needles, make your own needle 2:08:02.760 --> 2:08:06.800 t do craft books, cure your COVID, find a bee 2:08:06.880 --> 2:08:13.520 hive and start sucking. And the other sources are any 2:08:13.560 --> 2:08:18.320 other sources have a great book called Making Stuff and 2:08:18.360 --> 2:08:21.520 Doing Things from way back in the day. Definitely recommend 2:08:21.560 --> 2:08:24.920 that one. Um country know how, like there's some a 2:08:24.920 --> 2:08:29.520 lot of old craft books actually, UM, the entire back 2:08:29.640 --> 2:08:34.880 collection of the Mother Earth magazine skills stuff like I 2:08:34.960 --> 2:08:39.560 have definitely made any setting magazine, not Emma Goldman's anarchists newspaper, 2:08:39.640 --> 2:08:43.680 but I've definitely made solar powered dehydrators out of cardboard 2:08:43.720 --> 2:08:48.520 boxes and saran rap from the from Mother Earth magazine stuff. 2:08:48.560 --> 2:08:52.480 And it's absolutely fantastic. The just old school guide books, UM, 2:08:52.560 --> 2:08:54.600 and but also anything that's listened as like d I 2:08:54.720 --> 2:08:57.040 Y guides that have stuff that you would like to 2:08:57.120 --> 2:09:00.440 make and like to do are great. The library is great. 2:09:01.000 --> 2:09:05.080 Use the library. Research librarians at the library are great 2:09:05.200 --> 2:09:07.680 and if you're like, I'm trying to learn how to 2:09:07.760 --> 2:09:09.960 do this thing? Can you help me find books on it? 2:09:10.080 --> 2:09:13.520 Research librarians at the library they have doctorates in how 2:09:13.560 --> 2:09:15.640 to help you do that, and that's they just sit 2:09:15.720 --> 2:09:19.080 at desks all day waiting for me. And what you'll 2:09:19.120 --> 2:09:21.800 learn from them about how to answer those questions for 2:09:21.840 --> 2:09:25.520 yourself is also useful in the long run. We'll go 2:09:25.560 --> 2:09:30.120 out and make a reflux. Still is that legal? Well, no, 2:09:31.200 --> 2:09:33.440 not in most places. But it's easy. You just need 2:09:33.480 --> 2:09:35.840 a box inside of a box and you pour old 2:09:35.880 --> 2:09:38.400 beer in the center box and that's like saran wrap 2:09:38.400 --> 2:10:05.120 on what's avoiding star evation? My autonomous neighborhood collectives? Uh? 2:10:05.160 --> 2:10:08.680 This is it could happen here a podcast about things 2:10:08.720 --> 2:10:12.000 not being as good as they are and trying to 2:10:12.000 --> 2:10:15.440 make them better. I'm Robert Evans my co host today 2:10:15.960 --> 2:10:19.640 as many days Garrison Davis Garrison say hello to the people, 2:10:19.760 --> 2:10:22.080 high people, Garrison. What are we? What are we? What 2:10:22.120 --> 2:10:23.480 do we? What do we? What do we? What do we? 2:10:23.480 --> 2:10:24.680 What do we do? What do we do? What are 2:10:24.680 --> 2:10:35.440 we doing today? Thank you? We are going to be 2:10:35.720 --> 2:10:41.960 having a discussion on um food and food preservation and 2:10:42.120 --> 2:10:45.919 finding do you mean like putting in the freezer. Well, 2:10:45.960 --> 2:10:48.440 what if the freezer is not working. The freezer is 2:10:48.480 --> 2:10:52.720 always working. This is America's never breaking. The power goes 2:10:52.760 --> 2:10:58.480 out for two weeks. Well, that's one of our guests 2:10:58.480 --> 2:11:02.040 for today. Uh my friends be in a Lane, um, 2:11:02.080 --> 2:11:04.280 who you've heard earlier this week and who We're going 2:11:04.360 --> 2:11:07.600 to talk about food storage and particularly again our focus 2:11:07.640 --> 2:11:09.560 this week is, like we keep getting a lot of 2:11:09.560 --> 2:11:12.640 people being like I have no money or very little 2:11:12.640 --> 2:11:14.920 money or very little space. I'm not gonna be able 2:11:14.960 --> 2:11:18.520 to grow things. How can I possibly, you know, gather food, 2:11:18.720 --> 2:11:21.600 store food, like build resiliency. I don't have any any 2:11:21.680 --> 2:11:25.040 kind of farmland. And the good news is, no matter 2:11:25.040 --> 2:11:28.200 where you live, things that are edible grow, and you 2:11:28.240 --> 2:11:30.360 can get those things and you can find ways to 2:11:30.360 --> 2:11:32.080 make them last longer than they would if you just 2:11:32.160 --> 2:11:34.720 kept them in a sack. And that's a pretty cool 2:11:34.760 --> 2:11:36.160 thing to do. So I'm going to hand it over 2:11:36.200 --> 2:11:39.960 to be in a Lane. I love that. Okay, I 2:11:40.000 --> 2:11:42.560 don't have much space, I don't have much money. Was 2:11:42.680 --> 2:11:45.560 kind of how I got into doing canning in the 2:11:45.560 --> 2:11:50.920 first place. For myself. I used to be very very poor. 2:11:50.960 --> 2:11:53.280 I was on food stamps. I had no money. I 2:11:53.360 --> 2:11:56.920 was a broke punk, and one of my friends was like, 2:11:56.960 --> 2:12:00.120 oh man, there's this farmer at the farmer's market it 2:12:00.520 --> 2:12:03.160 and if you help them clean up, they'll let you 2:12:03.240 --> 2:12:06.800 take away whatever leftover produce they have that they don't want, 2:12:07.400 --> 2:12:09.520 so you can just load up a bag with produce. 2:12:09.560 --> 2:12:11.720 All you gotta do is help them load the truck 2:12:11.760 --> 2:12:15.440 at the end of the day. So that's what I 2:12:15.480 --> 2:12:20.920 did every single Wednesday for the next five years, no 2:12:20.960 --> 2:12:24.240 matter what come, hell or high water. But with that 2:12:24.240 --> 2:12:28.200 that also came there's you started realizing that there's gluts 2:12:28.200 --> 2:12:31.160 and then lacks of things. Um much like you know, 2:12:32.240 --> 2:12:36.120 everything that's happening in society now, just in general. There 2:12:36.200 --> 2:12:38.840 was seasons when there was nothing but you were It 2:12:38.880 --> 2:12:41.080 was easy to at the end of a farmer's market 2:12:41.160 --> 2:12:45.120 day walk home with a fifty pound flat of tomatoes, 2:12:46.480 --> 2:12:48.920 and you know times of the year where it was 2:12:49.000 --> 2:12:52.160 nothing but cabbage and you might have wanted tomatoes a lot. 2:12:52.200 --> 2:12:54.600 And canning was great because it helped to equal out 2:12:55.160 --> 2:12:57.720 when I could get things without having to dive into 2:12:57.840 --> 2:13:00.280 the you know, sixty books a month, I got in 2:13:00.320 --> 2:13:02.520 food stamps and spend it at the farmer's market on 2:13:02.600 --> 2:13:05.120 that instead, I could use it to have a variety 2:13:05.160 --> 2:13:08.640 of vegetables or canned goods or other things in order 2:13:08.680 --> 2:13:12.440 to flavor my raman. Yeah. I first came at this 2:13:12.560 --> 2:13:17.320 kind of from working on farms, where similarly there are gluts. 2:13:17.400 --> 2:13:21.040 There are times of year where you literally cannot eat 2:13:21.520 --> 2:13:25.240 melons fast enough, and everybody who works on farms talked 2:13:25.240 --> 2:13:27.720 about getting the melon ships because you're eating as many 2:13:27.760 --> 2:13:29.880 melons as you possibly can, and it turns out that 2:13:29.920 --> 2:13:34.520 doesn't always agree with you. Um and uh. And then 2:13:34.640 --> 2:13:38.040 you know there's the time of year where well, if 2:13:38.040 --> 2:13:41.880 you want to eat some month old potatoes and some 2:13:42.080 --> 2:13:46.240 two month old squash and maybe some storage cabbage, great, 2:13:46.360 --> 2:13:50.640 and otherwise there's no produce to be had. So preserving 2:13:50.680 --> 2:13:53.080 food is well, there's a lot of different ways to 2:13:53.120 --> 2:13:55.440 do it, and it seems really intense a lot of 2:13:55.440 --> 2:13:58.200 the time because people talk about like batchuli is um, 2:13:58.200 --> 2:14:00.320 you're going to die of botulism if you have home 2:14:00.400 --> 2:14:05.160 canned food. And so first off, there's just to dispel 2:14:05.480 --> 2:14:10.160 a lot of myths about things, there's actually really really 2:14:10.200 --> 2:14:14.320 really low instances of bauchul is is um Um. I'm 2:14:14.320 --> 2:14:16.839 not going to say it doesn't happen, But there's actually 2:14:17.240 --> 2:14:21.280 very few cases of bauchuli is um per year, and 2:14:21.360 --> 2:14:24.680 a lot of them are from industrial canned goods. Don't 2:14:24.720 --> 2:14:27.120 eat a can if it's bowing out in the sides 2:14:27.120 --> 2:14:31.200 of the top, Throw the can, well bury the can, 2:14:31.440 --> 2:14:33.920 bury it in the woods far away. But then also 2:14:33.960 --> 2:14:37.040 beyond canning, there's a lot of different ways of food preservation. 2:14:37.080 --> 2:14:39.720 You know, you were joking about, like, but don't toss 2:14:39.760 --> 2:14:41.760 it in the freezer. I don't know. I toss a 2:14:41.840 --> 2:14:45.200 lot of things in the freezer. Shouldn't not a bad idea? Yeah, 2:14:45.280 --> 2:14:48.760 I mean, we got all sorts of animals from the 2:14:48.800 --> 2:14:50.720 farm in the freezer right now. We've got a lot 2:14:50.720 --> 2:14:55.000 of blueberries because a couple of squirrels. Yeah that was 2:14:55.000 --> 2:14:58.960 a random thing. Um, just just some squirrels on the 2:14:59.000 --> 2:15:03.040 side side squirl for squirrel for heat is, But yeah, 2:15:03.200 --> 2:15:05.880 they were. It's not that having a freezer is a 2:15:05.960 --> 2:15:09.520 bad idea. It's just that the freezer depends on you know, 2:15:09.800 --> 2:15:13.800 having power, or at least having a backup power source 2:15:14.640 --> 2:15:20.280 or a generator or or or um and in the 2:15:20.400 --> 2:15:23.040 case that you don't have access to those things or 2:15:23.200 --> 2:15:26.160 can't afford to get a whole extra freezer and that 2:15:26.320 --> 2:15:30.320 fills up a substantial part of or can't afford power 2:15:30.360 --> 2:15:33.880 the freezer. Um you know, we we definitely saw this 2:15:33.920 --> 2:15:39.160 past winter with the power outages that were caused by um, 2:15:39.160 --> 2:15:43.640 you know, in clement weather, and it suddenly became very 2:15:43.720 --> 2:15:49.400 hard to acquire dry ice because dry ice will keep 2:15:49.440 --> 2:15:53.400 stuff cold for longer. But everybody who's gone camping and 2:15:53.480 --> 2:15:56.320 use dry ice and they're cooler knows that. So as 2:15:56.360 --> 2:15:59.440 soon as there's an interruption in people's ability to refrigerate 2:15:59.480 --> 2:16:03.120 their food, the entire regional stock of dry ice is 2:16:03.120 --> 2:16:06.400 going to disappear. So what we're looking at more in 2:16:06.480 --> 2:16:08.160 what we're talking about today is a little bit more 2:16:08.360 --> 2:16:11.840 like the things that you don't need to keep anywhere, 2:16:11.880 --> 2:16:16.360 but like a cabinet that maybe doesn't get boiling hot, 2:16:16.480 --> 2:16:19.440 and if it's sort of a room temperature cabinet, you 2:16:19.480 --> 2:16:23.120 can store a lot of stuff. I've personally found the 2:16:23.160 --> 2:16:25.960 backs of closets, like, think about all of the areas 2:16:25.960 --> 2:16:28.320 that you don't clean that you're like, I just shove 2:16:28.400 --> 2:16:30.760 things back here and hope that they disappear because I 2:16:30.760 --> 2:16:33.200 don't actually care about them, or like the backs of 2:16:33.240 --> 2:16:36.400 broom closets. UM that actually for a long time was 2:16:36.480 --> 2:16:38.520 my place where I would store canned goods because you 2:16:38.560 --> 2:16:42.000 can just stack the palettes of jars, the flats of them. 2:16:42.040 --> 2:16:46.080 Because if you buy jars from this supermarket, UM buy 2:16:46.160 --> 2:16:50.920 mar canning stores anywhere Safe Way has them, Walmart has them, 2:16:51.200 --> 2:16:54.400 you can. They're not expensive. You can just they come 2:16:54.400 --> 2:16:56.600 in a little square flat and so after I would 2:16:56.600 --> 2:16:58.280 fill them, I just put them all back in there 2:16:58.320 --> 2:17:00.840 and then I could just stack those as a little 2:17:00.879 --> 2:17:04.080 tower and then you know, hand them out as gifts 2:17:04.080 --> 2:17:06.800 for the rest of the year, which was also definitely 2:17:06.840 --> 2:17:09.080 saying that you do when you have absolutely no money 2:17:09.120 --> 2:17:10.960 and people are like, oh, we're having a New Year's 2:17:10.959 --> 2:17:13.040 Eve party and you're like, I brought you jam, and 2:17:13.040 --> 2:17:17.960 they're like, oh, great, blueberry lovely. But it's nice as 2:17:17.959 --> 2:17:22.280 something to be you can give people beyond canning, because sometimes, 2:17:22.400 --> 2:17:25.560 like right now, it's incredibly hard to find the metal 2:17:25.680 --> 2:17:28.960 lids that go on canning jars or in some cases 2:17:29.000 --> 2:17:33.360 the jars. That's actually was recently looking for more jar 2:17:33.520 --> 2:17:36.360 lids and ended up buying flats of jars instead, because 2:17:36.840 --> 2:17:40.560 as four different stores told me, there's a supply chain 2:17:40.640 --> 2:17:44.120 disruption in getting jar lids. There's also a lot of 2:17:44.120 --> 2:17:47.840 ways that you can preserve stuff with drying. You can 2:17:48.000 --> 2:17:51.840 also do a lot with salt, vinegar and sugar preserving 2:17:51.879 --> 2:17:56.080 as well, so that you don't necessarily need the resealable 2:17:56.200 --> 2:17:58.760 jars or like new lids for that. So there's a 2:17:58.800 --> 2:18:02.640 bunch of different methods um lact of fermentation as well, 2:18:02.760 --> 2:18:05.720 like fermenting things. So what would you like to talk 2:18:05.760 --> 2:18:08.360 about first? Let's start with just like what is what 2:18:08.480 --> 2:18:11.119 is the actual process of canning beyond like just dumping 2:18:11.120 --> 2:18:13.960 stuff into a can and sealing it. Um. So there's 2:18:14.440 --> 2:18:19.360 canning by itself is ceiling jars with heat. So that was, 2:18:21.680 --> 2:18:25.280 oh God, really really came into its own around like 2:18:25.320 --> 2:18:29.080 World War two was like industrial canning. And the thing 2:18:29.120 --> 2:18:34.360 about it is even within canning, there's two different types. 2:18:34.400 --> 2:18:37.160 There's low heat and high heat canning. Low heat is 2:18:37.200 --> 2:18:41.480 actually just boiling water temperature, and high heat you actually 2:18:41.480 --> 2:18:45.240 need to go above the temperature of boiling water. So 2:18:46.120 --> 2:18:49.080 you can pressure can. Um, you need a pressure cooker. 2:18:49.320 --> 2:18:53.240 They terrify me. I don't pressure can because I haven't 2:18:53.360 --> 2:18:56.960 quite gotten over the images of when they explode and 2:18:57.000 --> 2:18:59.440 give people steam burns. I know plenty of people who 2:18:59.520 --> 2:19:02.200 do pressure can and it's great for them. You can 2:19:02.240 --> 2:19:05.760 pressure can at high heat anything. You can toss raw 2:19:05.840 --> 2:19:08.160 fish or raw meat in oil and jars or in 2:19:08.200 --> 2:19:10.240 water in jars, and you can pressure can it and 2:19:10.280 --> 2:19:13.240 it will cook and seal the jars and it is 2:19:13.360 --> 2:19:18.040 very safe. Low temperature canning is still relying on one 2:19:18.040 --> 2:19:21.480 of the other methods like salt, sugar, acid for the 2:19:22.000 --> 2:19:25.120 to keep down bacteria. So all it does, though is 2:19:25.160 --> 2:19:27.080 it makes the same so you can do this with 2:19:27.200 --> 2:19:29.680 or without canning. It just makes the jars keep a 2:19:29.680 --> 2:19:33.680 lot longer because it preserves them. So it's the process 2:19:33.720 --> 2:19:36.360 of you take a jar and then you either use 2:19:36.520 --> 2:19:40.440 a clean ring. If you're using those latching reusable jars 2:19:40.440 --> 2:19:42.680 with these nice rings on them that you can use 2:19:42.720 --> 2:19:45.320 over and over again, really handy when there are supply 2:19:45.360 --> 2:19:47.760 chain disruptions to know that you can reuse your jar 2:19:47.840 --> 2:19:50.040 and ring. We're talking about like the Mason jars that 2:19:50.080 --> 2:19:53.440 you you you would get in UH bars that are 2:19:53.480 --> 2:19:55.680 too expensive five years ago. They would pour your terrible 2:19:55.720 --> 2:19:57.879 I P A in them. Yeah, but you can use 2:19:57.879 --> 2:20:00.400 them for other things too. These are the well there's 2:20:00.400 --> 2:20:03.840 two there's the jars that have a lid that is 2:20:03.840 --> 2:20:09.440 attached and it lay and so those have a those 2:20:09.440 --> 2:20:13.080 have a rubber gas that you can and as long 2:20:13.120 --> 2:20:15.200 as you keep those oiled and clean, you can reuse 2:20:15.240 --> 2:20:17.520 those for years. They do eventually wear out, but they 2:20:17.640 --> 2:20:22.120 use a long time. Others is Mason or ball canning jars, 2:20:22.600 --> 2:20:25.720 and those actually have a two piece top. They have 2:20:25.760 --> 2:20:28.120 a middle ring that you just need to make sure 2:20:28.160 --> 2:20:31.440 it's not like horrifically dented or rusted through. It's reusable 2:20:31.480 --> 2:20:33.600 for a very long time. And then you have a lid, 2:20:33.920 --> 2:20:36.840 and the lid can only really they are recommended to 2:20:36.840 --> 2:20:39.320 only use once I've re used them, like twice used 2:20:39.360 --> 2:20:41.840 to can once you can like once it's canned and 2:20:41.879 --> 2:20:43.400 you you can take stuff out, put it back on. 2:20:43.440 --> 2:20:45.640 You don't have to like replace the lid every time 2:20:45.680 --> 2:20:48.119 you get some preserves out. Yeah, but the tiny piece 2:20:48.160 --> 2:20:50.720 of rubber that is what steals it is very thin, 2:20:50.920 --> 2:20:56.000 and so it's not very reusable for multiple can't batches 2:20:56.040 --> 2:20:59.320 of food and true to farm. You know, if you 2:20:59.680 --> 2:21:07.119 go looking around in you know, rummage sales, vintage stores, whatever, 2:21:07.360 --> 2:21:11.320 you will probably find either very cheap or very overpriced. 2:21:11.400 --> 2:21:15.760 Some of those old hinged jars and tons of Mason jars. 2:21:15.800 --> 2:21:18.119 And tons of Mason jars, you will often need to 2:21:18.200 --> 2:21:22.640 replace either the lids or the rubber gaskets in order 2:21:22.680 --> 2:21:25.280 to make them safe to star food in. But in 2:21:25.320 --> 2:21:29.640 either case, whether you're using the little the mason or 2:21:29.680 --> 2:21:31.760 ball jars that you'll find in lots of stores or 2:21:31.840 --> 2:21:34.560 the big latching ones, um, the jars are the more 2:21:34.560 --> 2:21:38.960 expensive spots things. The lids and the rubber rings are 2:21:39.000 --> 2:21:42.560 more inexpensive to replace. So if you can find them 2:21:42.600 --> 2:21:46.040 at Goodwill, if you can find them at Goodwill bins 2:21:46.400 --> 2:21:50.120 or all the places, it's great, you should always grab them. 2:21:50.240 --> 2:21:55.640 Jars are never a bad idea. So canning there's a 2:21:55.680 --> 2:22:02.279 million different ways to can. I do a lot of jam, jellies, pickles, 2:22:02.320 --> 2:22:04.959 and tomatoes, which are all things that are cammed that 2:22:05.040 --> 2:22:08.760 are preserved either with acid or sugar. In either case, um, 2:22:08.879 --> 2:22:11.120 James and jelly is being sugar and pickles and stuff 2:22:11.160 --> 2:22:15.120 being acid. Yes, those are my two favorites. They're very 2:22:15.160 --> 2:22:18.439 simple to learn, and then you can always expand recipes 2:22:18.480 --> 2:22:22.240 and everything else. Um. But with pickles and tomatoes and 2:22:22.280 --> 2:22:26.640 other things, having the PHB very acidic is what actually 2:22:26.640 --> 2:22:30.000 does the preservation of the food and keeps down fungus 2:22:30.040 --> 2:22:33.640 is molds, bacterias and stuff. And with jams and jellies, 2:22:34.000 --> 2:22:38.080 the natural acidity of the fruit mixed with a lot 2:22:38.080 --> 2:22:42.760 of sugar is what keeps the fruits from going bad 2:22:42.840 --> 2:22:45.800 or anything. And the great thing about canning fruit is that, 2:22:45.840 --> 2:22:47.680 like when you when you're thinking about what is the 2:22:47.720 --> 2:22:50.879 greatest number of free calories available to most people in 2:22:50.920 --> 2:22:54.360 a city during the seasons where fruit grows, it's often 2:22:54.440 --> 2:22:56.960 going to be fruit, and like you you'd be surprised. 2:22:56.959 --> 2:22:58.520 Like where you can do like Los Angeles where I 2:22:58.560 --> 2:23:01.800 used to live, there was much of the year, like 2:23:01.840 --> 2:23:04.120 seven eight months you could fill your arms with fruit 2:23:04.160 --> 2:23:05.440 if you knew where to go. And there's an app 2:23:05.480 --> 2:23:08.440 called Falling Fruit that you can use to find people 2:23:08.480 --> 2:23:11.120 mark like where different trees are a lot of Like 2:23:11.160 --> 2:23:13.080 you'll be surprised. Even if you think, like, well, there's 2:23:13.080 --> 2:23:15.400 no fruit in my area, try falling Fruit. You you 2:23:15.440 --> 2:23:17.480 may find that out. Actually there's a shipload of fruit. 2:23:17.480 --> 2:23:20.160 And I just was not looking or as you often find, 2:23:20.200 --> 2:23:22.200 I didn't realize that was an edible plant. I assume 2:23:22.280 --> 2:23:25.879 those berries were. We're not food, and they can be 2:23:26.080 --> 2:23:29.360 and and that's a lot of like free you know 2:23:29.400 --> 2:23:32.039 when you especially when you're making preserves that's really colorically dense, 2:23:32.640 --> 2:23:35.200 and and that also ties in with in the sort 2:23:35.240 --> 2:23:40.280 of survival utility aspect of this, because like canning is fun, 2:23:40.360 --> 2:23:43.280 and harvesting fruit it's fun, and having stuff you made 2:23:44.080 --> 2:23:48.000 to steel pomegranates from rich people's houses do it, sure, absolutely, 2:23:48.040 --> 2:23:50.360 I mean, but part of part of the other thing 2:23:50.440 --> 2:23:53.360 to think about here is that like providing yourself with 2:23:53.400 --> 2:23:58.480 a reserve of different kinds of nutrition and different like 2:23:58.520 --> 2:24:02.200 there's you get an assortment of stuff so you know 2:24:02.320 --> 2:24:05.720 you aren't having to constantly buy it because honestly, the 2:24:05.760 --> 2:24:08.840 most expensive in terms of carbon output, the most expensive 2:24:08.840 --> 2:24:14.279 in terms of cost per calorie in grocery stores tends 2:24:14.320 --> 2:24:16.520 to come from the stuff that's you know, been shipped 2:24:16.560 --> 2:24:19.240 up from Argentina because it's not in season up here. 2:24:19.600 --> 2:24:22.720 While you're getting grapes in January, right and blueberries, you 2:24:22.760 --> 2:24:25.520 can actually watch them move all the way down the 2:24:25.560 --> 2:24:28.680 northern hemisphere over the course of the growing season until 2:24:28.720 --> 2:24:30.920 they're like growing them down in Chile right before they 2:24:30.920 --> 2:24:33.480 start being able to grow them again. So yeah, so 2:24:33.600 --> 2:24:36.920 just thinking about like the things that are available when 2:24:36.920 --> 2:24:39.440 they are available, um. And you'll see this all the time, 2:24:39.520 --> 2:24:42.640 like the good florage spots. When they're available, there will 2:24:42.640 --> 2:24:47.320 be crowds of people all they're all collecting stuff UM 2:24:47.440 --> 2:24:51.400 and getting to know some of the things that you 2:24:51.520 --> 2:24:55.039 like and that grow near you, and what time of 2:24:55.200 --> 2:24:59.599 year they come into season, and maybe forming some relationships 2:24:59.640 --> 2:25:02.520 with people and being like, hey, I noticed you have 2:25:03.200 --> 2:25:06.240 a chestnut tree in your backyard. Can I come and 2:25:06.440 --> 2:25:10.920 harvest chestnuts? Hey, you have this kind of oak? Can 2:25:11.000 --> 2:25:13.160 I come and get acorns from you? Because I want 2:25:13.160 --> 2:25:16.200 to do a leeching project. Hey, I was grabbing apples 2:25:16.200 --> 2:25:18.760 and I noticed that you're harvesting all these acorns. I 2:25:18.800 --> 2:25:20.720 didn't know that you could do anything with acorns. What 2:25:20.800 --> 2:25:23.600 is what are you doing with all those acorns? And 2:25:23.680 --> 2:25:26.080 one of the greatest things too, is that a good 2:25:26.120 --> 2:25:29.440 fruit tree makes a lot of fruit. So much so 2:25:29.560 --> 2:25:32.920 you know, we have a little plum that's near our house. 2:25:33.120 --> 2:25:36.720 It's a little plum tree and since this year we 2:25:36.800 --> 2:25:38.959 managed to get to it before the raccoon did that 2:25:39.040 --> 2:25:43.240 likes to clamber over the roof. We got about two 2:25:43.640 --> 2:25:46.879 and fifty pounds of plums off of the small fruit 2:25:46.920 --> 2:25:49.240 tree and it is not very big. It has a 2:25:49.240 --> 2:25:53.640 footprint of maybe about ten ft in diameter of the 2:25:53.680 --> 2:25:56.520 widest part of the tree. But it drops quite a 2:25:56.560 --> 2:25:58.080 bit of fruit, especially if we get to it before 2:25:58.120 --> 2:26:00.120 it all drops on the ground and our cars in 2:26:00.160 --> 2:26:03.280 the driveway and the walkway and the cat and the cat. 2:26:03.520 --> 2:26:06.959 But if we get to it, it's a lot. So honestly, 2:26:06.959 --> 2:26:10.480 I set aside about a fifty pound tub that was like, Okay, 2:26:10.480 --> 2:26:12.800 we're gonna make some jam. We're gonna dry some of these, 2:26:12.800 --> 2:26:14.840 we're going to do things with it, and the rest 2:26:14.840 --> 2:26:16.960 we're able to give to friends. We toss some of 2:26:17.000 --> 2:26:18.840 the free fridges, we toss some all. You know, we 2:26:18.959 --> 2:26:22.120 handed out because one good fruit tree makes a lot. 2:26:22.160 --> 2:26:24.480 So when you see fruit trees around town, when you 2:26:24.520 --> 2:26:29.080 walk under someone's cherry tree, it's okay to ask for 2:26:29.200 --> 2:26:32.160 fruit too, because I don't know anyone that uses every 2:26:32.200 --> 2:26:34.360 single piece of fruit off of any other fruit trees. 2:26:35.000 --> 2:26:37.080 And you know, one of the things that you will 2:26:37.120 --> 2:26:41.320 see is that um a lot of cities try to 2:26:41.400 --> 2:26:47.680 discourage people from planting fruit trees along roads very cisely 2:26:47.760 --> 2:26:50.720 because when they come into fruit, they produce so much 2:26:50.760 --> 2:26:53.920 fruit that it causes a problem. Also, it's a good 2:26:53.920 --> 2:26:57.080 way to form relationships in your neighborhood. You say like, hey, 2:26:57.400 --> 2:27:00.120 we have a whole bunch of plums, we have a 2:27:00.160 --> 2:27:03.680 ton of whatever is dropping all over your front yard. 2:27:04.120 --> 2:27:07.880 And then your neighbors may be like, oh, those weirdos 2:27:07.879 --> 2:27:11.120 who were collecting fruit that one time. This tree in 2:27:11.200 --> 2:27:13.560 my backyard that's about to drop all this stuff. I'll 2:27:13.640 --> 2:27:15.600 let them know and maybe they'll come so I don't 2:27:15.600 --> 2:27:18.720 have to clean it up afterwards. Yeah, which is again 2:27:18.760 --> 2:27:20.800 like people, we talk a lot about the importance of 2:27:20.800 --> 2:27:23.879 building like community resiliency and community self defense, and folks 2:27:23.920 --> 2:27:25.760 act like, well, how do I actually do that? Well, 2:27:25.800 --> 2:27:27.879 that's maybe that's a start for you. Maybe the start 2:27:27.920 --> 2:27:29.360 is like you get to know what do they have? 2:27:29.440 --> 2:27:31.560 What do I have? And then you start talking about like, well, 2:27:31.600 --> 2:27:33.160 I'm gonta can some stuff. Do you want to learn 2:27:33.160 --> 2:27:34.680 how to can? You're like, oh, well, I was going 2:27:34.720 --> 2:27:36.040 to dry at east do you want to learn it? Like, 2:27:36.120 --> 2:27:37.680 or do you want to borrow a dehydrator? And then 2:27:37.680 --> 2:27:41.279 you're making connections that are very practical and also social 2:27:41.320 --> 2:27:44.959 in your area. Also one plug, we've talked a little 2:27:44.959 --> 2:27:49.440 bit about the process of canning dehydrators are great and 2:27:49.520 --> 2:27:53.640 are pretty affordable, and they're not expensive, yeah, like I 2:27:53.680 --> 2:27:56.480 think you know, for sixty to eighty bucks, you can 2:27:56.560 --> 2:27:59.640 usually get a decent dehydrator. And if you don't have one, 2:27:59.680 --> 2:28:02.120 but you have an oven, if you put things on 2:28:02.160 --> 2:28:05.160 a baking rack very low heat, you can just put it. 2:28:05.240 --> 2:28:07.840 I would just turn my oven onto warm, and you 2:28:07.920 --> 2:28:11.320 can lay out things in your oven. I have a 2:28:11.400 --> 2:28:14.040 nicer oven now that won't let me do this, But 2:28:14.080 --> 2:28:17.040 when I used to live in my first junkie apartment, 2:28:17.400 --> 2:28:21.520 I would literally just stick a metal spoon, like a 2:28:21.560 --> 2:28:23.480 one of my big cooking spoons in the door of 2:28:23.560 --> 2:28:25.480 the ovens so that it would open, and that would 2:28:25.560 --> 2:28:27.920 just vent all of the steam of whatever I was 2:28:28.040 --> 2:28:31.040 drying in the oven. So and meanwhile, if you live 2:28:31.080 --> 2:28:34.400 in say a really dry climate or a climate where 2:28:34.440 --> 2:28:37.000 you have a really dry stretch of time when fruit 2:28:37.120 --> 2:28:41.480 is in season, and you have window screens and an 2:28:41.520 --> 2:28:44.400 area where you can make sure there's a steady breeze 2:28:44.520 --> 2:28:48.480 flowing across your your fruit, cut it thin, lay it 2:28:48.480 --> 2:28:50.920 out in the sun. And that's why there's so much 2:28:51.040 --> 2:28:53.680 sun dried X, Y and Z. That's really expensive. When 2:28:53.720 --> 2:28:55.840 you go to dram Joe's or whatever. And it's you know, 2:28:55.959 --> 2:28:57.680 it's not just a matter we shouldn't just say that 2:28:57.720 --> 2:28:59.720 like this is you have to forage for all this stuff, 2:28:59.760 --> 2:29:01.760 like it can be a matter of like, well, during 2:29:01.800 --> 2:29:04.720 these months, beef is is much cheaper, It's half as 2:29:04.760 --> 2:29:06.920 much as it will be later. I'm going to buy 2:29:06.920 --> 2:29:09.840 beef when it's cheap, and I'm going to make jerky now, 2:29:09.959 --> 2:29:12.840 and then I will have protein when I can't afford 2:29:12.879 --> 2:29:16.039 to purchase protein or as much protein later. In the air, 2:29:16.200 --> 2:29:18.800 speaking of jerky, I mean like one of the just 2:29:18.879 --> 2:29:21.480 in the vein of you know, building your own dehydrator 2:29:21.520 --> 2:29:24.480 or something. One other thing that h that that I've 2:29:24.520 --> 2:29:26.880 done is you can just get a you know, a 2:29:26.920 --> 2:29:30.120 decent box fan and some furnace filters and strap them 2:29:30.120 --> 2:29:33.960 all together and that can very successfully dry out jerky. 2:29:34.080 --> 2:29:36.959 Um so D dehydrators. There's a lot of different ways 2:29:37.000 --> 2:29:43.720 to Yeah, it is literally just kind of warm or 2:29:43.800 --> 2:29:47.320 less in some cases, and air that is moving, and 2:29:47.360 --> 2:29:49.800 it's it's like everything we've been talking about. There's the 2:29:50.120 --> 2:29:53.080 you can buy very expensive dehydrators if you want to, 2:29:53.120 --> 2:29:56.320 if you want to get a primo jerky making together, 2:29:56.400 --> 2:29:59.120 you can you can make that a real expensive thing, 2:29:59.240 --> 2:30:02.080 or you can do it for like trash, like with 2:30:02.080 --> 2:30:04.920 with discarded crap that you find around in people's like 2:30:05.160 --> 2:30:07.560 take piles. And I think also the other thing to 2:30:07.560 --> 2:30:10.360 think about we're talking about it's not all foraging, is 2:30:10.440 --> 2:30:13.760 to think about we've been talking about supply chain disruptions, 2:30:13.920 --> 2:30:17.680 but also one of the things in our current circumstances 2:30:17.840 --> 2:30:22.760 is the weird gluts and excesses and surpluses that are 2:30:22.800 --> 2:30:26.640 produced by our supply chains. And again, one of the 2:30:26.640 --> 2:30:30.160 big ways that I learned about food preservation was food 2:30:30.160 --> 2:30:34.400 not bombs and food preservation and also just food preparation 2:30:34.680 --> 2:30:36.760 was food not bombs way back in the day, like 2:30:36.800 --> 2:30:40.320 you need a special sound every time on specifically it 2:30:40.360 --> 2:30:43.160 could happen here someone mentions food not bombs. At this point, 2:30:43.360 --> 2:30:46.160 that was my entry back when I was just kind 2:30:46.200 --> 2:30:50.520 of a liberally journalist guy to like anarchist practice. Was 2:30:50.600 --> 2:30:53.760 like every protest I go to, there's these like krusty 2:30:53.800 --> 2:30:57.800 punks handing out sandwiches, um, and then they have neat stickers. 2:30:58.120 --> 2:31:00.480 I wonder what's going on here and well, and one 2:31:00.520 --> 2:31:02.720 of the important things about food not bombs is that 2:31:02.760 --> 2:31:05.680 food not bombs has sort of two different ways that 2:31:05.720 --> 2:31:10.039 you obtain food for food not bombs. One is you 2:31:10.200 --> 2:31:16.520 form relationships with first farmers, Yeah, people who are going 2:31:16.600 --> 2:31:18.800 to have a lot of food, a lot of supply 2:31:18.920 --> 2:31:21.560 coming in and there's stuff they're not going to be 2:31:21.680 --> 2:31:26.000 able to use, either because it's ugly or you know, 2:31:26.080 --> 2:31:28.560 it's carrots that look like dicks and they don't feel 2:31:28.600 --> 2:31:30.800 comfortable putting the carrots that look like dicks on the shop. 2:31:34.160 --> 2:31:37.080 Or Yeah, so you have your relationships with like local 2:31:37.080 --> 2:31:40.520 businesses and local suppliers who aren't going to be able 2:31:40.560 --> 2:31:43.720 to sell or use some of their stuff. And right 2:31:43.840 --> 2:31:46.480 day old bread, we are a bakery and we pride 2:31:46.480 --> 2:31:48.600 ourselves on fresh bread, so we're going to give our 2:31:48.720 --> 2:31:51.280 day olds and it makes us feel good as liberals 2:31:51.320 --> 2:31:53.600 to give it to food not bombs. And then on 2:31:53.640 --> 2:31:58.240 the flip side, there's the the fact that the supply 2:31:58.400 --> 2:32:01.080 chain is designed to produce these excesses, but then if 2:32:01.080 --> 2:32:03.200 it can't make money off of them, dispose of them. 2:32:03.480 --> 2:32:05.640 That's where you end up with you know, cop scarting, 2:32:05.879 --> 2:32:10.000 copscarding dumpsters for example, don't dumpster from the cops that 2:32:10.320 --> 2:32:14.240 the cop guarded dumpsters. Those are the other dumpsters go 2:32:14.360 --> 2:32:18.160 to other dumpsters. It's infuriating, it's very frustrating. I get 2:32:18.160 --> 2:32:20.280 the desire to yell at the cop. But there will 2:32:20.320 --> 2:32:23.200 you can find dumpsters that are started. If you are 2:32:23.280 --> 2:32:28.000 a store or restaurant, you're legally protected to let people 2:32:28.040 --> 2:32:32.600 go through your dumpster. Yeah, not to you. Yeah, during 2:32:32.600 --> 2:32:36.199 the Clinton administration, there's legislation that was passed that straight 2:32:36.280 --> 2:32:39.320 up said, like at a federal level, if you present 2:32:39.360 --> 2:32:44.000 I think the wording is seemingly wholesome and healthful food 2:32:44.640 --> 2:32:48.280 two people for free, even if it has PASTI expiration date, 2:32:48.640 --> 2:32:52.400 that you are legally protected because it's dumb to throw 2:32:52.440 --> 2:32:54.920 out food just because the thing that stamped on the 2:32:54.959 --> 2:32:57.960 package has expired. Now that does mean if you pick 2:32:58.040 --> 2:33:00.800 up some meat that's expired and the I could just puffy, 2:33:01.120 --> 2:33:05.120 don't eat that. And also there are also local ordinances 2:33:05.120 --> 2:33:07.320 and local laws that do restrict that more because there 2:33:07.320 --> 2:33:09.640 are places where people get arrested for handing out food 2:33:09.680 --> 2:33:12.120 to like you know, homeless people and whatnot. But you know, 2:33:12.200 --> 2:33:15.280 check your local laws before doing anything is radical and 2:33:15.360 --> 2:33:17.560 violent as giving out as giving out free food to 2:33:17.560 --> 2:33:21.360 poor people. Yeah, there are these gluts um and there 2:33:21.360 --> 2:33:23.400 are these points where the supply chain is going to 2:33:23.840 --> 2:33:27.439 dump huge amounts of stuff into the system. For example, 2:33:27.720 --> 2:33:30.000 right now, we just talked about how canning supplies are 2:33:30.120 --> 2:33:32.240 kind of in short supply right now, which is weird. 2:33:32.840 --> 2:33:35.400 I guarantee you that that means in a couple of 2:33:35.440 --> 2:33:39.240 months there's going to be tons of canning supplies everywhere. 2:33:39.640 --> 2:33:43.000 Or you know, when there were power outages in Portland, 2:33:43.520 --> 2:33:45.640 then there was a bunch of stuff, even stuff that 2:33:45.680 --> 2:33:48.960 doesn't need to be refrigerated, was getting thrown out if 2:33:49.000 --> 2:33:52.800 it was stored in the refrigerated section. Yeah, because stores 2:33:52.879 --> 2:33:56.520 have their specific protocols about like oh well if this 2:33:56.640 --> 2:33:59.640 is left, if this freezer is unplugged, we have to 2:33:59.680 --> 2:34:01.920 throw out everything in the freezer. Never mind that a 2:34:01.920 --> 2:34:04.119 bunch of stuff in the freezer straight up says right 2:34:04.160 --> 2:34:07.359 there on it does not require refrigeration or only refrigerate 2:34:07.400 --> 2:34:11.040 after opening, referat after opening. So think about like where 2:34:11.080 --> 2:34:15.359 are your local systems going to produce these huge bloods 2:34:15.680 --> 2:34:18.520 or maybe it's super cheap at certain times of year, 2:34:18.600 --> 2:34:22.840 you know, you maybe corn goes down to like fifteen 2:34:23.000 --> 2:34:26.000 cents an ear or five cents an ear at the 2:34:26.120 --> 2:34:28.760 end of at the at the end of August, right, 2:34:29.000 --> 2:34:31.400 so maybe you can get a whole ton of corn 2:34:31.520 --> 2:34:35.400 and then you can dry it. Like you know, when 2:34:35.440 --> 2:34:37.720 I was a kid, we lived in California, and we 2:34:37.720 --> 2:34:39.520 were not doing a ton of canning. I did not 2:34:39.640 --> 2:34:42.920 grow up canning. I didn't grow up preserving food. I 2:34:42.920 --> 2:34:46.760 didn't in that type of way. But one thing that 2:34:47.040 --> 2:34:49.720 my mom would do is when our little mire lemon 2:34:49.760 --> 2:34:53.480 tree was covered in lemons, she would just juice a 2:34:53.520 --> 2:34:56.360 whole pile of them and then poured into ice cube 2:34:56.360 --> 2:34:59.360 trays and then empty the ice cube trays into gallon bags, 2:34:59.400 --> 2:35:01.520 and then we had, you know, we would make lemonade 2:35:01.560 --> 2:35:05.520 all year round. And her recipe literally called for three 2:35:06.000 --> 2:35:08.560 lemon cubes to how much sugar and stuff as she 2:35:08.600 --> 2:35:11.000 had it measured out, and so she would just pop 2:35:11.000 --> 2:35:13.000 those in and that would just live in the refrigerator 2:35:13.040 --> 2:35:16.840 all year round. Was just constant lemonade. One other plug 2:35:16.920 --> 2:35:19.840 in terms of preserving stuff that I want to talk 2:35:20.040 --> 2:35:22.520 a little bit about, but with the disclaimer that I 2:35:22.520 --> 2:35:25.720 am by no means an expert um. One of the 2:35:25.760 --> 2:35:29.240 other things that you know, the punks of Yesteryear, with 2:35:29.240 --> 2:35:31.920 their food not bombs houses got really excited about was 2:35:31.959 --> 2:35:35.360 things like crowd and kombucha um and there are some 2:35:35.440 --> 2:35:39.760 really great resources out there, specifically um Wild Fermentation and 2:35:39.879 --> 2:35:41.920 the Art of Fermentation, which are both by a guy 2:35:42.000 --> 2:35:47.400 named Sander Cats on how to ferment food without you 2:35:47.400 --> 2:35:53.440 you know, you're using naturally occurring bacteria and fermentation as 2:35:53.440 --> 2:35:56.800 a means of preservation is possibly the oldest means of 2:35:57.720 --> 2:36:01.760 deliberate food storage that human beings have, and you can 2:36:01.800 --> 2:36:06.000 do it with a wide variety of things. And so again, 2:36:06.120 --> 2:36:08.800 if you're faced with one of those gluts where you 2:36:08.879 --> 2:36:11.440 have a ton of stuff and nowhere you can store 2:36:11.440 --> 2:36:16.280 it in your refrigerated storage areas, there's probably a way 2:36:16.320 --> 2:36:18.480 you can jam it, you can dry it, you can 2:36:18.600 --> 2:36:21.920 ferment it, you can you know, make vinegar out of it. 2:36:22.400 --> 2:36:24.360 And you can find guides for all of this for 2:36:24.440 --> 2:36:26.879 free online. Like all of this is accessible if you 2:36:26.879 --> 2:36:28.800 have a phone. There are people in people putting up 2:36:28.920 --> 2:36:31.360 videos on YouTube where you can watch them do it too. 2:36:31.440 --> 2:36:33.480 To make it. You do not have to purchase books 2:36:33.520 --> 2:36:36.720 in order to learn. There's also a lot of ways, 2:36:36.760 --> 2:36:39.039 you know, you can make cold storages in your backyard. 2:36:39.120 --> 2:36:41.960 You can definitely, like I have a lot of guides 2:36:42.000 --> 2:36:44.880 on how to make your own roots sellers than very 2:36:44.920 --> 2:36:47.760 small spaces and do things because as long as you're 2:36:48.040 --> 2:36:50.880 not having your food produce the thing that makes it 2:36:50.920 --> 2:36:53.120 that makes your food go bad. There's a lot of 2:36:53.120 --> 2:36:56.520 different ways that you can prevent food spoilage but that 2:36:56.600 --> 2:37:00.280 you can learn from. But honestly, crowd and caning are 2:37:00.320 --> 2:37:02.879 probably some of the quickest and easiest. And as a 2:37:02.920 --> 2:37:07.000 general rule, um, you know, similarly, if you don't have 2:37:07.040 --> 2:37:09.480 access to building a garden, you probably also don't have 2:37:09.520 --> 2:37:12.879 access to like digging a root seller. That being said, 2:37:13.600 --> 2:37:17.640 if you have a room or a space in your 2:37:17.720 --> 2:37:21.800 house where you can reliably keep it cool and dark 2:37:22.080 --> 2:37:26.840 like below, I don't know, seventy degrees dark. Yeah, like closets, 2:37:26.920 --> 2:37:29.320 there's probably a spot in your basement if you live 2:37:29.320 --> 2:37:31.000 in a house where you have a basement, or if 2:37:31.000 --> 2:37:32.760 you live in a basement, because if you live in 2:37:32.720 --> 2:37:38.160 a situation, um, it's pretty easy. And for that matter, 2:37:38.320 --> 2:37:41.640 when we talk about like roots sellers, there are totally 2:37:41.680 --> 2:37:45.600 some d I y schematics for literally digging a like 2:37:46.360 --> 2:37:51.360 three foot cube hole in your yard and sinking in 2:37:51.560 --> 2:37:54.640 something to line it, and then that's where you store stuff. 2:37:54.720 --> 2:37:58.080 Because if you dig down a few feet below ground. 2:37:58.160 --> 2:38:01.960 It stays fifty degrees your round. Yeah, and I get 2:38:02.040 --> 2:38:04.440 like when you hear again, we keep coming back to this. Like, 2:38:04.480 --> 2:38:07.920 I think a lot of people get overwhelmed or get 2:38:08.040 --> 2:38:11.240 very anxious when they think about trying to build resiliency 2:38:11.280 --> 2:38:13.080 because they live in a tiny apartment, they don't have 2:38:13.160 --> 2:38:15.200 much in the way of money. The important one of 2:38:15.200 --> 2:38:17.119 the most important things to understand that like a lot 2:38:17.120 --> 2:38:20.040 of people, no matter how poor you are, poorer than you, 2:38:20.520 --> 2:38:23.280 have been doing this kind of stuff for generations. Like 2:38:23.320 --> 2:38:26.720 it's why most of our grandparents survived the thirties. Yeah, 2:38:26.879 --> 2:38:30.039 And I think one thing that people have a misinterpretation 2:38:30.040 --> 2:38:31.480 of with canning and stuff is that they are going 2:38:31.520 --> 2:38:33.520 to put stuff up and they're gonna like put up 2:38:33.560 --> 2:38:37.120 their cans and their jars and then they will eventually 2:38:37.240 --> 2:38:41.320 build this. You know, I have food for twelve years 2:38:41.480 --> 2:38:45.040 buried here. Nothing has that great of a shelf life. 2:38:45.080 --> 2:38:49.000 I mean, I've definitely pulled out some jerim that was 2:38:49.040 --> 2:38:52.560 from definitely didn't do that this year that I had 2:38:52.600 --> 2:38:54.520 forgotten in the back of a cupboard and eating it 2:38:54.560 --> 2:38:57.960 and it's fine. It's fine, but usually a couple three years, 2:38:58.320 --> 2:39:02.119 couple but The idea of canning and preserving was not 2:39:02.240 --> 2:39:06.240 that you are saving food in case the sky falls 2:39:06.280 --> 2:39:09.960 in and everyone is doomed. The reason that people preserve 2:39:10.000 --> 2:39:13.320 food was to extend the bounty of a harvest season 2:39:13.440 --> 2:39:17.320 for a few additional weeks or months. And if you 2:39:17.360 --> 2:39:20.080 think about it that way, you're extending what you have 2:39:20.640 --> 2:39:22.680 two times when it would be more enjoyable to eat 2:39:22.720 --> 2:39:25.240 it when it feels special. No, I mean, it's like jam. 2:39:25.320 --> 2:39:27.160 A big part of the reason for jam is there's 2:39:27.440 --> 2:39:30.360 really important nutrients in fruit that maybe you can't get 2:39:30.400 --> 2:39:32.200 in the dead of winter, but you can if you 2:39:32.200 --> 2:39:35.080 have jam. Just to be a farm nerd for a minute, 2:39:35.120 --> 2:39:37.360 because Robert, I know that you are a huge fan 2:39:37.400 --> 2:39:41.120 of pumpkin spice. Oh. The reason that I had my 2:39:41.160 --> 2:39:45.160 first cup of the season today, amazing monster. The reason 2:39:45.320 --> 2:39:51.320 that pumpkins and cinnamon and apples and baking goods, baked 2:39:51.320 --> 2:39:54.320 goods with reasons in them, are all like a big 2:39:54.360 --> 2:39:58.200 deal and are all like apples are a fruit that 2:39:58.280 --> 2:40:02.200 if you put apples in say a barrel, there's the 2:40:02.280 --> 2:40:05.760 saying about one bad apple. Because if you make sure 2:40:05.800 --> 2:40:07.920 that an apple isn't rotting and you put it in 2:40:07.959 --> 2:40:11.920 a cool, dark space with decent ventilation, apples will keep 2:40:12.000 --> 2:40:15.320 for a very long time. Squash are a big deal. 2:40:15.360 --> 2:40:18.240 Pumpkins are a big deal around this time of year 2:40:18.320 --> 2:40:22.440 because buttercup squash, for example, and butter not squash are 2:40:22.480 --> 2:40:26.840 both storage squash. They taste better if they have been 2:40:26.879 --> 2:40:30.640 sitting in a dark storage area for like two months. 2:40:31.200 --> 2:40:33.840 Then they have metabolized more of their starches into sugars, 2:40:33.840 --> 2:40:37.879 and their tastier. A lot of a lot of like squash, root, vegetables, 2:40:37.920 --> 2:40:39.960 all of that sort of stuff that you associate with, 2:40:40.400 --> 2:40:45.360 you know, all harvest season is specifically storage crops, because 2:40:45.840 --> 2:40:50.520 I'm originally from New England. That's the time of year 2:40:50.600 --> 2:40:53.360 where you stop being able to get food out of 2:40:53.400 --> 2:40:56.640 the ground and everything freezes and dies, and then it 2:40:56.720 --> 2:40:59.280 doesn't start up again until April, and you need a 2:40:59.320 --> 2:41:02.360 way to like keep eating in the meantime. And also, though, 2:41:02.520 --> 2:41:07.480 let's just remember that a lot of preserved foods are 2:41:07.560 --> 2:41:10.720 also meat, not just because they are a substitutor because 2:41:10.720 --> 2:41:13.720 they're staying the harvest, but because in order to preserve 2:41:13.720 --> 2:41:17.200 the food and keep the nutrients you have to go 2:41:17.240 --> 2:41:19.240 through a process. You want to have the salt be 2:41:19.400 --> 2:41:21.800 too high or the acidity be too high, or the 2:41:21.840 --> 2:41:24.440 sugar content be too high, or the water content be 2:41:24.520 --> 2:41:28.400 too low to enable bacterial growth, and so that the 2:41:28.400 --> 2:41:31.560 fruits and vegetables and meats or whatever don't rock. But 2:41:31.640 --> 2:41:34.000 that means that you get so many awesome and different 2:41:34.040 --> 2:41:37.320 flavors that you would never you know, grapes, grapes are great. 2:41:37.400 --> 2:41:41.320 Whatever grapes preserved in wine vinegar. That sounds really cool. 2:41:41.440 --> 2:41:43.279 You can do that, and then you have a completely 2:41:43.280 --> 2:41:46.200 different thing that you normally don't eat, you know, dried 2:41:46.720 --> 2:41:49.840 dried figs, apple chips, like. You also get a whole 2:41:49.920 --> 2:41:54.080 new variety of foods that are not just extending in harvest, 2:41:54.160 --> 2:41:56.760 but are also other things to eat. You know, my 2:41:57.080 --> 2:41:59.560 kids are not going to toss a whole pile of 2:41:59.600 --> 2:42:04.040 fresh in their backpacks sometimes because it squishes at the 2:42:04.040 --> 2:42:06.720 bottom of their backpacks and I find it weeks later, 2:42:06.800 --> 2:42:10.400 and it's absolutely terrifying fortunate. On the other hand, a 2:42:10.400 --> 2:42:14.000 bunch of you know, dried dried prunes, plums and stuff 2:42:14.000 --> 2:42:16.680 from the garden that dried out. They'll take baggies of those, 2:42:16.720 --> 2:42:19.160 and if I find them a month later because they 2:42:19.160 --> 2:42:21.640 didn't eat them, it isn't the end of the world 2:42:21.680 --> 2:42:26.480 either and and again like there's a lot of fun stuff, 2:42:26.520 --> 2:42:29.920 Like you know, yeah, grapes by themselves are are fine. 2:42:30.480 --> 2:42:33.160 You can also turn grapes into stuff that will help 2:42:33.200 --> 2:42:37.840 you preserve other stuff. And raisins in baked goods. If 2:42:37.840 --> 2:42:40.360 you've ever had a loaf of raisin bread and a 2:42:40.360 --> 2:42:45.480 loaf of white bread in the same bread box, the 2:42:45.560 --> 2:42:49.439 white bread will mold first. Raisins are actually a preservative. 2:42:49.440 --> 2:42:52.400 It's why people started putting raisins in bread. Yeah, and 2:42:52.440 --> 2:42:55.160 I think we should we should close out, but I 2:42:55.280 --> 2:42:57.640 kind of wanted to do that by circling back to 2:42:57.680 --> 2:43:00.320 the overall topic of this week, which is like building resilia. See, 2:43:00.320 --> 2:43:01.840 when you don't have much in the way of money 2:43:01.920 --> 2:43:04.160 or resources. And one of the things that you may 2:43:04.160 --> 2:43:06.320 not think of his building resiliency is exactly what you 2:43:06.360 --> 2:43:09.359 were talking about being in in you aline paying attention 2:43:09.360 --> 2:43:11.840 to what is available, what time of the year, what 2:43:12.000 --> 2:43:13.880 is cheap, what time of the year, what is like 2:43:13.920 --> 2:43:16.920 when do the gluts happen, and when do the shortages happen? 2:43:17.280 --> 2:43:19.520 Because that doesn't actually cost any money. You don't even 2:43:19.560 --> 2:43:21.880 have to buy things, like you're already you're all always 2:43:21.959 --> 2:43:23.800 going to be going out to the store to get 2:43:23.800 --> 2:43:27.279 food occasionally. It's it's it's keeping an eye on understanding 2:43:27.280 --> 2:43:30.440 what is available growing naturally and what is available in 2:43:30.520 --> 2:43:33.880 the economy, because that connects you more to the environment 2:43:33.920 --> 2:43:37.240 you live in, to the climate as it changes um 2:43:37.280 --> 2:43:39.960 into your community, all of which make you more resilient, 2:43:40.000 --> 2:43:41.520 and none of which costs you a dime. It just 2:43:41.560 --> 2:43:44.640 costs you attention. Also just a plug for you know, 2:43:44.720 --> 2:43:49.760 people who have access to the ecosystems where this is relevant. 2:43:50.120 --> 2:43:53.280 Things like shellfish licenses are great. I'm not going to 2:43:53.360 --> 2:43:57.360 tell anyone that they should, you know, seek out sport 2:43:57.480 --> 2:44:01.960 fishing as a means of obtaining calories. On the other hand, 2:44:02.280 --> 2:44:05.119 in Oregon, at least for I think it's five five bucks, 2:44:05.200 --> 2:44:07.320 nine bucks. Oh, it's up to ten bucks now. But 2:44:07.400 --> 2:44:10.560 so for ten bucks get a shellfish license. You go 2:44:10.640 --> 2:44:14.080 down to a cove and you rape cockles for an hour, 2:44:14.240 --> 2:44:17.879 and then you have, you know, an enormous amount of 2:44:18.000 --> 2:44:21.240 food that you can do all of the preservation that 2:44:21.280 --> 2:44:23.800 we've talked about. You can also just make chowder and 2:44:23.840 --> 2:44:26.840 freeze it, you know whatever. But there's a lot of 2:44:26.840 --> 2:44:32.440 ways to to cheaply obtain calories from out in the world. Yeah, 2:44:32.560 --> 2:44:36.800 all right, well that's going to do it for us today. Um. 2:44:37.200 --> 2:44:41.320 Until next time, remember experiment on your friends with different 2:44:41.360 --> 2:44:44.640 medical care treatments. Don't do that. Although on the other hand, 2:44:44.680 --> 2:44:47.480 look up the if you are in the Pacific Northwest, 2:44:47.640 --> 2:44:51.120 there is the Portland Fruit Tree Project up here, which 2:44:51.280 --> 2:44:55.200 goes around and connects gleaners with fruit trees that need 2:44:55.280 --> 2:44:58.320 to be gleaned. Um, so people who have over abundant 2:44:58.320 --> 2:45:00.520 trees that they don't want all the stuff. That's a 2:45:00.560 --> 2:45:03.400 really great resource in other cities, I'm sure there's other things. 2:45:03.480 --> 2:45:09.080 And also the Falling Fruit Map, so you can go 2:45:09.160 --> 2:45:12.199 online and if there's not already one in your area. 2:45:12.240 --> 2:45:14.440 They also make it really easy to be able to 2:45:14.560 --> 2:45:17.640 chart and put in trees in your area. So if 2:45:17.640 --> 2:45:20.200 it's saying that you're excited about and you love identifying trees, 2:45:20.480 --> 2:45:22.960 you can go in and actually start charting your neighborhood. 2:45:23.640 --> 2:45:28.080 Also figure out how to identify, you know, five wild 2:45:28.160 --> 2:45:30.560 plants that grow in your area that you can eat, 2:45:30.920 --> 2:45:35.000 because it's always nice to have more variety and it's 2:45:35.040 --> 2:45:36.840 fun to be out on a walk and be like, 2:45:36.879 --> 2:45:39.440 oh cool, now I have a thing that I can 2:45:39.480 --> 2:45:41.880 toss in with dinner when I get back. Yeah, And 2:45:41.920 --> 2:45:43.800 we've talked about how there's like the poor version of 2:45:43.800 --> 2:45:47.000 the cheap version. There's also like the centrist version and 2:45:47.040 --> 2:45:48.920 the radical version of that. The centrist version is like, 2:45:48.920 --> 2:45:50.480 I just want to know, like what kind of edible 2:45:50.480 --> 2:45:53.320 fruits grow naturally in my area. The more radical version 2:45:53.400 --> 2:45:56.000 is I'm going to start guerrilla grows of edible foods 2:45:56.080 --> 2:45:58.720 on like available in my area. I'm gonna seed ball 2:45:58.840 --> 2:46:01.600 some ship. I'm gonna like very to get insurgent with 2:46:01.680 --> 2:46:04.879 my yeah, to prepare food. Yeah. Things that grow riz 2:46:04.920 --> 2:46:08.680 only take root real easy in the ecosystems they like 2:46:08.800 --> 2:46:11.000 and are real hard to get rid of once they 2:46:11.000 --> 2:46:14.440 get crime gardens. I'm not going to say people should 2:46:14.520 --> 2:46:17.840 tear out the random trees that cities plant and then replace. 2:46:18.040 --> 2:46:22.840 No one can say that, But it's possible to do 2:46:23.400 --> 2:46:26.600 trees didn't make food with trees that did make food 2:46:26.720 --> 2:46:30.040 in the same spot, probably nobody would notice except the 2:46:30.040 --> 2:46:32.640 people who got and there would be more free calories 2:46:32.680 --> 2:46:35.320 in your area. If you know the kind of things 2:46:35.320 --> 2:46:37.360 that have been happening in the last several years continue 2:46:37.400 --> 2:46:51.320 to happen, all right, that's the episode. That's the episode Hey, 2:46:51.400 --> 2:46:54.520 We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from 2:46:54.520 --> 2:46:57.280 now until the heat death of the universe. It Could 2:46:57.320 --> 2:46:59.640 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 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