1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and that makes this a 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: good old fashioned episode of stuff you should know. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: That's right. This is where we well, we don't debate, 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: because we don't really do that. We're going to talk 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: about the merits of Richard the Third and the people 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: that say that Richard the Third was a lousy king 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: and terrible person, and other people will say, nah, that 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: was rewritten by people who didn't like him, and he 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: was actually a pretty great king. And we'll get into 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: all that right now. 13 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: Wow, that's a great intro. So Richard the Third is 14 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 2: that you may his name may ring a bell if 15 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: you're not already familiar with him, because there is a 16 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: very very famous play by Shakespeare called The Tragedy of 17 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: Richard the Third. And in this play, Richard the Third 18 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: has a hunch back, he is a withered arm, he 19 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: has a horrible, dark soul at his core. He's a 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: terrible person, a murderer of children, a usurper to the throne. 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: And because this is Shakespeare, you know Shakespeare. That's how 22 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: everybody's thought of Richard the Third publicly or popularly for 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: hundreds of years. 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like Shakespeare wouldn't have a hit piece on somebody right. 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 2: No way, if there was even one Shakespeare. I was 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 2: thinking back to our episode on I think it was like, 27 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: did Shakespeare really write all that stuff? That is one 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,199 Speaker 2: of my all time favorite episodes because I knew nothing 29 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: about it, and yet there's this huge, rich subculture of 30 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: people who like talk about this and investigate it and 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: debate it. I love that one totally. But Shakespeare did 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: basically write this play, probably at least in part to 33 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: flatter Queen Elizabeth, who is the reigning monarch at the time, 34 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: and he was a very loyal subject her. Queen Elizabeth 35 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: was related to the guy who took over from Richard 36 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: I after Richard the Third was killed before that guy's 37 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: very eyes. 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: That's right, And this story will get a little confusing 39 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: as we go back and go through it, because there's 40 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: a lot of Richard's, there's a lot of Edwards. Yeah, 41 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: but it's not the hardest thing to keep straight. We're 42 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: going to do our best, but we if in order 43 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 1: to talk about Richard the Third, we have to talk 44 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: a little bit about the War of the Roses, which 45 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: were these bloody civil wars fought over the fourteen hundreds 46 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: basically in England, like, hey, who's in control here? Which 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: family has a right to the British throne? Most of 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: it was between the House of York and the House 49 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: of Lancaster, whose symbols were the White Rose for York 50 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: and the red Rose for Lancaster. There we go were 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: the roses white versus red. 52 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: Yes, that also explains that movie with Michael Douglas and 53 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 2: Danny DeVito and Kathleen. 54 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: Turner, one of my favorite all time movies. 55 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: That is a great movie. 56 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: It is great and holds. 57 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: Up, does it? I haven't seen it in a loi. 58 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: It's still so very funny. 59 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,839 Speaker 2: Okay, So, the Houses of York and Lancaster were both 60 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: part of the Plantagenet dynasty, and that dynasty had been 61 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 2: ruling England from eleven to fifty four up to the 62 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: point where we pick up our story. So like it 63 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: was a big deal that these two houses were warring 64 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: one another for control and even bigger deals. We'll see 65 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 2: that somebody who was basically unrelated to either one would 66 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: come in and end the Plantagenet dynasty. Richard the Third 67 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: was the last Plantagenet king. 68 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was born in fourteen fifty two. He 69 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: was Team York. His dad, Richard was the third Duke 70 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: of York, and it was his dad who was a 71 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: big player in the early part of the War of 72 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: the Roses. In fourteen fifty five he went to dethrone 73 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: King Henry the sixth, who was a Lancaster, and that 74 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: really kicked off the Wars of the Roses. I think 75 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: I've been saying singular like the Danny de Vido movie, 76 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: but technically it's the Wars of the Roses. 77 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: I think it's all combined collectively under the umbrella the 78 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: War of the Roses. And you could consider each of 79 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: these skirmishes or battles in it. 80 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so we're right and wrong. 81 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah so, but the thing to remember is that these 82 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: were incredibly vicious, bloody battles being fought by ultimately two 83 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: different sides of the same large family. But like the 84 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: term machiavellian is just perfectly used in this era. Like 85 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,840 Speaker 2: these people were like, you're my brother in law, and 86 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: I'm gonna cut your head off because I want to 87 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: get this other guy who's my cousin to the front 88 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: throne so I could take over my brother in law's 89 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 2: land like stuff like that. This was like the War 90 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 2: of the Roses. And to give you an example of 91 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 2: how brutal it was, when Richard the Third's father, Richard 92 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: the third, Duke of York died, he died in battle 93 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: and his head was cut off and displayed on a pike, 94 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 2: and they put a paper crown on it. Yeah, and 95 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: he was king at the time. The king had his 96 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: head cut off and a paper crown put on because 97 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: the other house had won and now they were the kings. 98 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 1: So after Richard's father, Richard once again died and his 99 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: head was put on a pike, his big brother Edward 100 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: I think he had three kids total, took up the 101 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: mantle to take up the fight and he defeated the 102 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: Lancasters at the Battle of Tauton, in which I think 103 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 1: it's the bloodiest battle in British history. Twenty eight thousand 104 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: deaths man, which is just remarkable loss of life in 105 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: any war, much less one in the fifteenth century. So 106 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: after that happened, Henry six goes to Scotland. He's like, 107 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: I'm out of here and Richard's brother was crown King Edward, 108 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: so all of a sudden he's King Edward the Fourth. 109 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: The Yorks are in power, and Richard is second in 110 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: line at this point, behind only his older brother George. 111 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 2: And George is a great example of what kind of 112 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: duplacitousness and maneuvering was prominent in this era. He was 113 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: executed under his brother's orders by being drowned in a 114 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: that of wine, executed for treason. And this wasn't like 115 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: saying I want to take the throne. He really was 116 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: treason is and plotting against his own brothers. So like 117 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 2: that was just something that happened in this family at 118 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: the time during the War of the Roses. 119 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Previous to that, when the Yorks were 120 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: in power, it was only for a couple of years 121 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: because in fourteen sixty nine Henry the six was reinstalled. 122 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: He's like, I've been to Scotland for a while. I'm 123 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: coming back because my wife, Margaret of Andrew led a 124 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: orchestrated a rebellion that worked, so thank you for that. 125 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 1: Now I'm back in charge. But then Edward and both 126 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: Richard and George, because George was not dead at this 127 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: point right, they came back defeated Henry the six again, 128 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: and this was basically for good in fourteen seventy one. 129 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Edward the fourth, Richard's brother, is now on 130 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: the throne. He has two sons, Edward and Richard. We're 131 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: going to put them to the side for a little 132 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: bit because he could not get more confusing if you 133 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: try to bring them in right now, we call him. 134 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: Eddie and Rick, yeah, or Eddie and Dick, how about that. 135 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. And Edward the fourth, this is when he has 136 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: his brother George executed to drowning a vat of wine, 137 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 2: and Edward the Fourth died and I was looking into it. 138 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 2: It's mysterious how he died. He just died suddenly. It 139 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: wasn't violently. He died of some sort of illness. But 140 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: in his will he named his brother Richard Richard the 141 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: Third lord and protector over Edward's son Edward, who was 142 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: going to now become King Edward the fifth. He was twelve, 143 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: though Richard the Third was thirty at the time, and 144 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: Richard the Third was like, I actually think that I 145 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: would make a better king. Yes, I know that through 146 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: royal lineage, Like Edward the Fifth is in line to 147 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: take the throne. He's twelve, and I don't really like 148 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 2: his jokes. He's terrible joke teller. I tell great jokes. 149 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: I should be king. So he started to do some 150 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: maneuvering and kept putting off the coronation, putting off the 151 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: coronation until he was able to produce a rumor. As 152 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: we'll see, that said the King Edward the fifth, the 153 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: twelve year old was illegitimate, his father had not borne 154 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: him or his father was illegitimate, and he didn't have 155 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: any real claim to the throne. Hence Richard the Third 156 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: did and it worked, so Richard the Third became king. 157 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he had to do a little bit of 158 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: other maneuvering to get this done. At one point he 159 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: met up with two of his deceased brother's closest advisors, 160 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 1: a guy named Anthony Woodville and a guy named Richard Gray, 161 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: and this was like, Hey, the coronation's coming up for 162 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: this twelve year old to be king. And the very 163 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: next day he had Richard the Third had Woodville and 164 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: Gray arrested on charges of trying to usurp the throne, 165 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: and they were executed very quickly, along with another close 166 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: friend of his brother's William Hastings, so like he was, 167 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, if it looks as if it appears to 168 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: look Richard the Third was just kind of cleaning house 169 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: of anyone from his brother's old team that would have 170 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: supported the boy king. 171 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,319 Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, and this was basically his brother's in laws 172 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: that he was killing off. He didn't want them to 173 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: try to vie for power because the mom of Edward 174 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 2: the Fifth, the young twelve year old, she could have 175 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 2: a ton of power, and so so could her brothers 176 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. So they were basically 177 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: like wiping out the other side of the family. Remember, 178 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: I said, Richard the Third kept putting off the coronation 179 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: and putting it off. Well, typically if you're waiting to 180 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: be coronated king, you would hang out in the Tower 181 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: of London. And since he was able to keep putting 182 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: off the coronation, Edward the Fifth, who the kid who 183 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: would be Edward the Fifth, was basically locked away in 184 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: the Tower of London, and like a month or so 185 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 2: after he got there, his younger brother, Richard, who was 186 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: nine at the time, showed up and they were kind 187 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: of compartmentalized away in the Tower of London, out of 188 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 2: public view, just held off to the side while Richard 189 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 2: was doing his maneuvering. 190 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. So while this is going on, these two boys 191 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: in line in front of Richard the Third are basically 192 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: hidden away in the Tower of London, and all of 193 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: a sudden, the Church of England says, you know what, 194 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: that marriage wasn't even legitimate, King Edward the fourth, your 195 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,479 Speaker 1: older brother and his wife Elizabeth. It was an illegitimate 196 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: marriage because Edward. I think there were a couple of things. 197 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: One was Edward had supposedly been engaged to another woman 198 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: when they married, which would be big of me at 199 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: the time. But didn't they also say that Elizabeth had 200 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: a previous marriage or something like that. 201 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: No, they said that Edward the fourth and Richard the 202 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: Third's father right, that he had had an affair that 203 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: bore Edward the fourth. 204 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 205 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, but Richard the third was legitimate, So he was saying, like, 206 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: my brother wasn't even a legitimate king while he was alive, 207 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: so his sons definitely aren't. I am though, because my 208 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 2: parents bore me legitimately. And so there were two illegitimate 209 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: rumors that were being bandied about at the time, and 210 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: I guess one of them got picked up on by 211 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 2: the Pope I believe, who said, yeah, we're cool with this, 212 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: and an Act of Parliament was passed that basically said 213 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: Richard the third has gone now from Lord Protector, he's 214 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: now king because he's the legitimate heir to the throne. 215 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: Right, And that was June twenty sixth, fourteen eighty three. 216 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: And maybe we'll take a break and talk about what 217 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: happened to these boys. 218 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I need to take a breath. 219 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: All right, we're going to figure all these Dixon eddies 220 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: out and we're going to come back and talk about 221 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: it right after this. 222 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 2: So, Chuck, you asked before we left, what happened to 223 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: the two princes? That is one of the greatest mysteries, 224 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: one of the greatest unsolved mysteries in English history. Still today, 225 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: we don't know what happened to them, And there's a 226 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: lot of great answers, and there's evidence that suggest one 227 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: way or the other, but there's nothing definitive, so we 228 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: can't really say what happened. But all we know is 229 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 2: that while he was sequestered, that was the word I 230 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 2: was groping for earlier. While he was sequestered, away or 231 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: while they were Edward the fifth and his younger brother Richard, 232 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: they like, they were seen increasingly less in public, usually 233 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: walking around the grounds of the Tower of London because 234 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: they're basically being held hostage until I think in the 235 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: fall of fourteen eighty five, I've they just disappeared from 236 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: public view. No one ever heard of them again as 237 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: far as the historical record is concerned. 238 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the spin doctors even wrote a song 239 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: about it. 240 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and they gave some pretty great advice. 241 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: I agree. Uh. Oh, now that stupid song is going 242 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,079 Speaker 1: to be in my head. It's been in my head 243 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: for a while, has it really, Yeah, because of this episode. 244 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 2: Yes. 245 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't even think about it until two seconds ago. 246 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: So you were on that already. 247 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: For a long time. 248 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: Yes, So, like you said, they were last seeing summer 249 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: of fourteen eighty three. Of course, they're the you know, 250 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: we'll just call him team Antie Richard. They were the 251 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: ones that were saying, like, this guy clearly murdered these boys, 252 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: and everybody knows it. He got his henchman, Sir James Terrell, 253 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: to do so. In Shakespeare's play, he whispers to that henchman, 254 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: come to me, Terrell soon act to have to supper 255 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: and now shout tell the process of their death. So 256 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: Shakespeare certainly bought that. 257 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should say Shakespeare wrote The Tragedy of 258 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: Richard the Third about one hundred years after Richard died, 259 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: and the idea that rich of the Third murdered directly 260 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: because if he if they were murdered, he almost certainly 261 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: did it himself. A lot of people argue. Other people say, yes, 262 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: Sir James Terrell probably had somebody do it, and the 263 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: ideas that they were smothered with pillows, But this idea 264 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: doesn't pop up in writing until after Richard's death. And 265 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: the whole idea is is that he he had really 266 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 2: great motive to kill these kids because they even if 267 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: they were illegitimate, they could go off grow up train. Yeah, 268 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: there would probably be a montage of some sort as 269 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: their training, and they could come back and try to 270 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: topple him from the throne through battles and violence, and 271 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: he was just wiping out this, you know, future challenge 272 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 2: to his rule. He was not the only one who 273 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: had that motive. There were a handful of other people 274 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 2: around the time who had just as good a motive 275 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: of wiping those two kids out for the exact same reason. 276 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: So that alone is not that's not like the most 277 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: damning evidence. 278 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see the montage. 279 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: Bit bit dip was that two princes? 280 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that one part where he's kind of scatting. 281 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was good. 282 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: Actually, so the montage could have happened for sure. Uh, 283 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: if you are team Richard, they will likely say, man, 284 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: there's no way he would have been fool enough to 285 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: do that. He didn't kill those guys. Maybe he moved 286 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: him up to the north and hid them away because 287 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: he wanted them to be safe for something. Uh, but 288 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: Richard never said anything about it. Uh. There was no 289 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: evidence for centuries, like literal evidence tying anything there. But 290 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: fairly recently there was a British TV historian that discovered 291 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: a will that included a necklace that belonged to Edward 292 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: the Fifth, the boy who would be king. This will 293 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: was drawn up thirty three years after he disappeared, and 294 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: it belonged to a wealthy London widow named Margaret Capel, 295 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: who just so happened to be the sister in law 296 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: of that henchman James Terrell. So the man who either 297 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: possibly murdered those two guys or at least was in 298 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: on the plot ended up with this necklace that was 299 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: given to his wife thirty three years later. So it's 300 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: not like, hey, this is literal evidence, but it's pretty shady. 301 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: It is, especially if you combine it with other evidence 302 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: people have generated over the years. But can we talk 303 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 2: for a second about why we don't know any of this, 304 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 2: from the murder mystery to whether they were legitimate or not. 305 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one reason is just that history wasn't 306 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: recorded the same and there's just a lot of stuff 307 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: that wasn't noted at the time, right. 308 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: Yes, that's part of it. I read also that the 309 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: Tutors when they took over after killing Richard the Third, 310 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: destroyed a lot of the Platagenet like document in England. 311 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: And then also there's not a lot of historians working 312 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: at the time. Luckily, there were a couple of chronicles 313 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 2: that were created. One was by a monk named Dominic 314 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,719 Speaker 2: Mancini or Mancini. He happened to be in England at 315 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: the time while this is going on, and went back 316 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 2: to Italy and wrote about it. So he had a 317 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: pretty good in what you would think impartial chronicle of 318 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 2: the whole thing. He didn't really have a dog in 319 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 2: the fight. And then there's something else called the Krolin Chronicle, 320 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: which was a chronicle that had been added to over 321 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: hundreds of years by some local monks at a nearby abbey. 322 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 2: And these two don't always agree. Sometimes they contradict each other. 323 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 2: Sometimes one talks about an event, the other one doesn't 324 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 2: mention it, so you can kind of piece it together. 325 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 2: But like if you take Edward the forces will for example, 326 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 2: where he made Richard the third lord protector, that will's gone. 327 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: We don't know if Richard made that up. We don't 328 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: know what the deal is. Without firsthand evidence and sources, 329 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: primary sources, all of this is essentially conjecture and up 330 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: for debate. 331 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And that's you know, that's why people 332 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: still debate this stuff today. And there's you know, pro 333 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: Richard team an anti Richard team. As far as his rule, 334 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: he only ruled for a couple of years, from fourteen 335 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: eighty three to fourteen eighty five. And this is again 336 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: where people will debate what kind of king he is 337 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: because some people will say that, you know, he fought 338 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: for the rights of the poor, he only convened one 339 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: parliament that he used to pursue like some pretty progressive 340 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: agendas for the time, like presumption of innocence was created 341 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: under his watch. 342 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 2: And universal pre k Yeah, yeah, that's right. 343 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: A lot of his rule was pretty tragic, though there 344 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: was a lot of war. One of his closest allies 345 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: ended up turning against him. The Duke of Buckingham switched 346 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: over in aligned with the Tutors Henry Tudor. Specifically, they 347 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: were a different family who had this you know, they 348 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: said they had a claim to an ancestral line that 349 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: was I guess to our modern eye seems fairly big, 350 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,919 Speaker 1: but back then it seemed important enough to go to 351 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: war over. 352 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. The Lancasters were basically like looking anywhere for somebody 353 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: who had a legitimate claim. So they went to a cousin's, cousins, 354 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 2: next door, neighbors, friends, dog's brother to find Henry Tudor, 355 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: who you could connect the dots to the throne. So 356 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: he did have a legitimate claim, but he was, like 357 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: you said, essentially a different family. He was just barely 358 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: a Lancaster. He was a tutor. But this is who 359 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 2: they brought to bear has claimed to the throne to 360 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 2: challenge the Yorks in the form of Richard IID for 361 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 2: this throne and his former friend, the Duke of Buckingham. 362 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 2: They staged the Buckingham Rebellion and it just got squashed 363 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: almost immediately, So within months of being coronated, his rule 364 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 2: was challenged right away. But he managed to get rid 365 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 2: of that and I think another one and hang in 366 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 2: there for a couple of years before fortune turned against him. 367 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, he also had personal tragedy a 368 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: few months after that. His only child, Edward died, his 369 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: wife died not long after that, and then Henry Tudor 370 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: comes to knocking again. He is, you might have stopped 371 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: me once, but you're not going to stop me again. 372 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: And on August twenty second, fourteen eighty five, they went 373 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,239 Speaker 1: to battle again at Bosworth Field outside of Leicester, and 374 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: this is where Richard as King fought and was killed 375 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: in battle. I think the last English king to actually 376 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: die on the battlefield, right, yes, but he was the 377 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: last king, and he by all accounts died in a 378 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: pretty brutal way if you consider, like you know, blunt 379 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: force trauma and head damage to be a brutal way 380 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: to go and I do. 381 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, as we'll see, they found his skull and 382 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: they examined it and found that he had not one, 383 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 2: but two potential death blows delivered to his head. One 384 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: was a sold thrust, so imagine sticking his sword into 385 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 2: somebody's head, through their skull and into their brain. That 386 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 2: happened to him. And then somebody came up with a 387 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: pike or a halberd, which is a very sharp axe 388 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: on one side and a point, very sharp point on 389 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 2: the other opposite the axe blade. And apparently a pikeman 390 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 2: came up and cut off essentially the lower part of 391 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 2: his skull and took a big chunk of his brain 392 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 2: stem with it. So either one of those, which everyone 393 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: happened first, killed them virtually instantly. That was not the 394 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: end of the torment to his poor body, though. 395 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: No, they he didn't get the hat on a pike 396 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: with a paper crown. They instead stripped him down nude 397 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: and paraded him through town on the horse. And apparently 398 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: people were like you know, jabbing and stabbing at his 399 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: body on the horse, and he was literally had stab 400 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: wounds in his butt. He was buried, historically speaking, he 401 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: was buried in a place called Greyfriars Franciscan Church in Leicester, 402 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: and other people say, no, it was. He was exhumed 403 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: by a mob. They threw him into a river, and 404 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: that was sort of we'll get to that, but it was. 405 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: I guess we've already ruined the fact that it's not 406 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: a mystery anymore, but it was a mystery for a while. 407 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: It was. And we should say when he was buried 408 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 2: at Greyfriars too, it was hastily. There was like I 409 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: saw that he was basically put in a shallow grave 410 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: that his legs were sticking out of when they finished, 411 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 2: so they had to break his legs, so like put 412 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: him in there like it wasn't. It was the kind 413 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: of grave that could very easily be lost to history. 414 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: So Richard the third is dead. He just died in battle. 415 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 2: Apparently Henry Tudor is crowned King Henry the seventh. On 416 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 2: the battlefield, they took the crown off of Richard's dead 417 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: body and put it onto Henry. So there's now a new, 418 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: entirely new family running the show, the Tutors. And almost 419 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: immediately they did they they started a propaganda campaign against 420 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:04,239 Speaker 2: Richard the Third that culminated later on in Shakespeare, Like 421 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: I said, Elizabeth was a relative granddaughter I think of 422 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: King Henry the seventh, so he was trying to basically 423 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: curry favor, show appreciation for her. But long before him, 424 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: I mean basically overnight they started slamming Richard the third, 425 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 2: I think is what it's called slamin him. 426 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, the earliest historical records we really have on Richard 427 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: the third are from that Tudor period. They are not 428 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: flattering at all. One guy named John Rousse. He was 429 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: a guy, and this is kind of pretty decent evidence 430 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: that it was a smear campaign. He was a historian 431 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: who wrote about him before and after his death. While 432 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: he was alive, he was saying, great leader, he helped 433 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: the rich and the poor. I'm up with King Richard 434 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: after Henry the seventh and the Tutors take over. He's like, no, Actually, 435 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: he was a monster, and like maybe a literal monster 436 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: because he was born at two years old, he spent 437 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: two years in the womb. He came out with a 438 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: full set of teeth, he had hair down to his shoulders. 439 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: He was accessively cruel. He's basically the Antichrist, and he 440 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: actually used that word then a guy and named Sir 441 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: Thomas Moore picked up where Rouse left off. He was 442 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: alive when Richard died. He was only eight years old, though, 443 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: but he was a close advisor to Henry the Seventh, 444 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: that Tudor king, and he wrote that Richard was a malicious, wrathful, 445 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: envious person from before his death. Ever, Perverse said he was, 446 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: and this is where you get the idea of him 447 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: being you know, deformed or something what we would now call, 448 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, like a body physical difference. He was little 449 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: of stature, ill featured of limbs, crooked backed, his left 450 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: shoulder much higher than his right, hard favored an appearance. 451 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. And also so if you're like, why are they 452 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: picking on this guy's appearance. At the time, physical differences 453 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 2: were equated with moral failings, right, So if you hunched 454 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: back in a withered arm, it meant you were really 455 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: dark on the inside, like you're outside reflected your inner self. 456 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: And Shakespeare relied very heavily on Thomas Moore's account. But Chuck, 457 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: I think the fact that the tutors found it necessary 458 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: to launch a smear campaign immediately against Richard the Third 459 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: to me strongly suggests that he was not hated in 460 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 2: fury and considered a cruel monster while he was alive. 461 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: I agree, because otherwise they'd be like, hey, we're good. 462 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: Everyone hated that. 463 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: Guy, exactly. 464 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: I was just thinking how awful it would have been. 465 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: I mean up until recently really, but back then, if 466 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: you had some sort of physical difference, you were just 467 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: born a certain way for people to think, like, hmm, 468 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: that means they're like an evil, awful person on the 469 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: inside as well. 470 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, until like the nineteen nineties. Basically, it was 471 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: like then. 472 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: I did want to mention quickly. I saw The Goodbye 473 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: Girl the other day, the Richard Dreyfuss movie, the Neil 474 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: Simon movie. 475 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: Okay, whose movie was it? 476 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: Well, Richard Dreyfus star and Neil Simon wrote it. Okay, 477 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: Marcia Mason was in it too. It's just a classic film. 478 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: But Richard Dreyfus very famously is in New York to 479 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: play Richard the Third and is trying to do this 480 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: very very strange or he's sort of forced into doing 481 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: this very strange portrayal of Richard the Third after he 482 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: was ready to play it straight as it already weird. 483 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 2: Richard the Third, Oh yeah, I've got to see that. Then, 484 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: that sounds great. Neil Simon's wonderful. 485 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: Oh, it's such a classic film. I love it. Back 486 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: when somebody like Richard Dreyfus could be a leading man 487 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: in Hollywood. 488 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 2: Another movie I have not seen, but I want to 489 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: is a documentary that al Pacino made because he's apparently 490 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: a huge Shakespearean and was basically obsessed with the tragedy 491 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 2: of Richard the Third, so much so that he made 492 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 2: a documentary about Richard. Have you seen it? 493 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, I saw it in the theater. That's when 494 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: I was living in New York or New Jersey. So 495 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: I saw it in New York. Yeah, it's good, very good. 496 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: I will see it. Then if Chuck says it's very good, 497 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 2: everybody that means see it. 498 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: So Shakespeare's play, like you said, was hugely popular. So 499 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: this was really the image that we were stuck with. 500 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 1: Maybe we should take our second break, let's do it, 501 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: all right. Well, we're going to come back and talk 502 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: about people that tried to redo that redo right after this, 503 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: all right, So I mentioned that people came to redo 504 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: the redo of Richard the Third's reputation. They are called 505 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: Ricardians and This happened in nineteen twenty four where a 506 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: group of people finally stood up and said, you know what, 507 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: We're tired of this rewriting of history. We're going to 508 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: form an actual society called the Richard the Third Society, 509 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: and our goal is to redeem his reputation. To quote, 510 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: strip away the spin, the unfair innu window tutor, artistic shaping, 511 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: and the lazy acquiescence of later ages and get at 512 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: the truth end quote. 513 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 2: But you have to imagine a nineteen twenties British aristocrat 514 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: saying right. 515 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that was my best job. 516 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 2: This group is known as Riccardians. Informally, this group has 517 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 2: chapters all over the world, particularly in parts of the 518 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 2: world that England has touched, like Canada, the United States, Australia, 519 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: New Zealand and of course in the UK. There's plenty 520 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 2: of them, but they are really dedicated to this. If 521 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: you go on their website, they're the essays and the 522 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: articles that they have are really detailed, so much so 523 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: that I would almost advise them to maybe dial it 524 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 2: back to Okay, average person, it's it's it's a lot 525 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 2: because they're so intensely into it. This era was so 526 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 2: intensely complicated and complex, but like they are very much 527 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: dedicated to reforming his image. Apparently they'll hand out pamphlets 528 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: that are critical of the Tragedy of Richard. I at 529 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: performances of the Tragedy of Richard the Third, like they're 530 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: rabble rousers when it comes to Richard the Third's reputation. 531 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: You know, it would be funny as if you went 532 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: to the website and it was like one of those 533 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: early aughts, it's like black background with like shaking pink 534 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: letters and it's got the spin doctors. 535 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 2: Playing with comic sands of course wit it. 536 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: So that would mainstream in the nineteen fifties because of 537 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: a book. It was a very popular detective novel called 538 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: a Daughter of Time in which they reimagine the disappearance 539 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: of the two princes as a modern murder mystery where 540 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: scotland Yard gets involved and scottland Yard says, Henry the 541 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: seventh was the guy who murdered these two boys. It 542 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: wasn't rich It was a very big book, bestseller in fact, 543 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: and it kind of helped shape the narrative starting or 544 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: reshape the narrative, I guess starting in the nineteen fifties 545 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: by saying Stikett Shakespeare. 546 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really critical of received wisdom in general. 547 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 2: Like this Scotland yard inspector who's laid up in the 548 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: hospital and is just amusing himself by solving this cold 549 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 2: case mystery, comes to the conclusion that he can't show 550 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: at all that Richard the third was responsible. In in fact, 551 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 2: he thinks it might have been Henry the seventh and 552 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: or his mother who killed these kids, because remember I said, 553 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: a lot of people had a reason to off them 554 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 2: or get them out of the way and along the way. 555 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 2: This detective is very critical of historians and how they 556 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 2: just basically will rely on rumor and unsubstantiated stuff as 557 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: fact and that becomes history. And this really changed people's 558 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 2: views about historians and history, but also especially about Richard 559 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: the third, and that was the thing that really kind 560 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: of turned the for him somewhat. 561 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, somewhat. The other interesting thing and this is where 562 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: like again we sort of gave it away, but there 563 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: was a mystery for a long time of what actually 564 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: happened to Richard. I was that body really buried? Was 565 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: it tossed into the river? When a really well balanced 566 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: biography came out in the nineteen fifties from Paul Murray 567 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: Kendall called Richard the Third. A woman named Philippa Langley 568 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: read it and got very interested. She's a historian and 569 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: a screenwriter obviously a Ricardian, and she was like, I 570 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: want to figure out what happened to this body. That's 571 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: still the mystery of what happened to Richard the third. 572 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: And so I'm gonna get on the case and sort 573 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: of mountain amateur which turned into, you know, sort of 574 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: a professional investigation. 575 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: She's gonna sniff them off the case. 576 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: Sniff them off the case. 577 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 2: I still, after all these years, do not know how 578 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: to use that correctly in a sentence. 579 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: It's always correct. That's the beauty of the phrase. 580 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: Oh oh good good. I love it even more so. 581 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 2: Her whole thing was to basically use like cold case 582 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: investigative methods like the fictional detective did and a daughter 583 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: of time to finding where Richard the Third's body was. 584 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 2: And by this time historians have basically narrowed it down 585 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: to a handful of blocks in the downtown part of Lester. 586 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: Like they knew Greyfriars was a real place. There was 587 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: a really good chance that he was in fact buried 588 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 2: at Greyfriars after his death. And even though Greyfriars had 589 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: been demolished like fifty years after Richard died, there were 590 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 2: still historical recordings that it was generally in this area 591 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: of downtown Leicester. One of the areas was under an 592 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: apartment building. Just so happened that that apartment building was 593 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 2: demolished at some point I think in the early two thousands, 594 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, and they were able to excavate 595 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: beneath it and found no evidence of Greyfriars, So basically 596 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: attention turned to the parking lot, and when they turned 597 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 2: to the parking lot, they found Philip A. Langley standing 598 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 2: there saying I've been telling you for two years now 599 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,239 Speaker 2: that this is where this guy's buried. I just know it. 600 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean she had been there in two thousand 601 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: and four, in two thousand and five, and I guess 602 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: just had a feeling like he's under this friggin parking lot, 603 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, Except she didn't say friggin because she's 604 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 1: from England. She said they're fracking, fracking, that's right. So 605 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: she approached the University of Leicester and said, hey, how 606 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: about this. I think Richard the thirds of her in 607 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: that parking lot, under that parking lot, why don't we 608 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: excavate that thing at great cost? And it's going to 609 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: be expensive, and it's in the middle of a big 610 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: city and probably won't find him. But I feel pretty 611 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: sure that we will. But other people are saying that 612 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: there's no way, and the University of Leicester said sure. 613 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: I think she was pretty doggedly persistent. Took a few 614 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: years and a lot of calls and a lot of meetings, 615 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: but finally she got the permissions, She won the support 616 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: of the city council, even those Riccardians. The Richard the 617 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: Third Society chipped in thousands of pounds to make this happen. 618 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: University of Lester also pitched in a little bit. They 619 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: finally had enough money five thousand pounds to rent a 620 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: ground penetrating radar system to survey that parking lot and 621 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: they went, something's down there, you guys. 622 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's somebody wearing a T shirt that says Greyfriar. 623 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 2: So I think this is the place. 624 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: I fought in the Four of Roses and all I 625 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: got with this les T shirt. 626 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 2: I don't want to gloss over, like what Philip A. 627 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: Langley contributed, she really got this thing going, like, I 628 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 2: don't Chee's one. I don't think the University of Lester 629 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,959 Speaker 2: would have done this ever had it not been for her. 630 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 2: She obtained permits to do this dig. Like she really 631 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 2: went to town, but she wasn't an ARCHAEOLOGI just the 632 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 2: University of lesterhead archaeologists. After that ground penetrating radar, she 633 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 2: was like, I'm telling you, I told you guys, let's 634 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 2: dig here. So then on August twenty twelve, they started 635 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 2: that dig, and this was it's a you know, a 636 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 2: car park, a parking lot. It's big enough that if 637 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: you're excavating it with brushes like toothbrushes and dental picks, 638 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 2: it's going to take you a while. The longer it takes, 639 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 2: the more expensive it's going to be. So they dug 640 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: in for a really long dig. Within hours, they discovered Richard. 641 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: The Third Yeah, or you know, they just discovered a 642 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: skeleton and they excavated the rest of the area. They 643 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: found all right, this is definitely beneath the former Greyfriars 644 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: Church here, and so everyone's getting pretty excited at this point. Yeah, 645 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: A few weeks later September twelfth, they finally call a 646 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: press conference and they say, everybody, we have a skeleton 647 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: that's an adult male in his thirties. Richard died at 648 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: thirty two. It's got severe curvature of the spine that 649 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: looks like scoliosis, which you know, is consistent with maybe 650 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: one shoulder being higher than the other. Had some serious 651 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: head trauma, looks like a death blow to the head. 652 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: And the date, you know, matches the historical record, so 653 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 1: we are pretty sure we have Richard the third year. 654 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a it was a big deal. There's 655 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 2: a good movie that came out in twenty twenty two 656 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 2: called The Lost King that's about Philippa Langley and. 657 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: This this Oh I didn't know about that. 658 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 2: It's really good. Steve Coogan plays her husband. It's a 659 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 2: great movie. But it's definitely it's based on her book 660 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: Looking that's based on her project, the Looking for Richard Project, 661 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: so it's very sympathetic to her and it's very critical 662 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 2: of the University of Leicester and it really kind of 663 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: became prominent in the movie, at least at this press 664 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: conference where she showed up expecting to be part of 665 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 2: this whole thing and she was just sidelined from that 666 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 2: point on by the university who had this huge press conference, 667 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: really well done press conference, and they announced this to 668 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: the world. This was an enormous deal, especially in the 669 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 2: UK obviously, and then I think just a couple of 670 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 2: weeks after that or within the next several months, they 671 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 2: did some more tests. These were DNA tests, and they 672 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 2: were like, they held another press conference, they like, this 673 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 2: is definitely Richard the third Yeah. 674 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: I mean it was one of those ninety nine point 675 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: nine percent certainties. Basically through DNA they got him, they 676 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: found him. Some people say they called it the luckiest 677 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: archaeological dig in history, which to me like sells her 678 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: a little short, because she did a lot of good 679 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: It didn't seem like luck to me. She literally found 680 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: the place and said dig there. That's not luck, that's 681 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: like good work. 682 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 2: I think sure. 683 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: I mean, they did say it was like a one 684 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: in a million thing. But again, I don't know call 685 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: it a great discovery. But when someone says I think 686 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: he's buried under this and he is, that's not. 687 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: Luck, that's guidance. 688 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: That's selling her short. Who played her in the movie. 689 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: Sally Hawkins, I think I don't I'm pretty sure that 690 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 2: was her name. 691 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: I love Sally Hawkins. 692 00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 2: Oh good, then that's who it was. 693 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: Wouldn't she The Shape of Water? That weird movie? 694 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: I did not see that movie. 695 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: Oh well, it won the Oscar and it was a 696 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: little weird. But yeah, that's that's Sally Hawkins. I love her. 697 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: She's great. 698 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 2: Okay, well, then you would like this movie even more 699 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 2: now because she is great, isn't it. 700 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: She was in the Paddington movies, which are fantastic if 701 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: you haven't seen them. 702 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 2: I saw the first one in the theater. 703 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 1: Yeah. The second one's even better. 704 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: Oh really, yeah, I was not expecting that, chuck. 705 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: Yeah it was. It's like one of the sequels out 706 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: did the first kind of things like well, there's not many, 707 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: but yeah. 708 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 2: So you may be sitting there, especially if you're genealogically mine, 709 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 2: and be like, well, how did they know? How did 710 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 2: they do a DNA test on the skeleton? Like did 711 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 2: they swab its tooth and then its toe and compare them. No. 712 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 2: There was a group of genealogists who got to work 713 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 2: tracking down descendants of Richard the Third. His only son 714 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 2: died long before he could have had kids, so he 715 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: had no heirs whatsoever. So this is a bit of work. 716 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 2: And they tracked down two different people. One guy was 717 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 2: in Canada and they said, you are definitely a direct 718 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: descendant of Richard the Third. Can we stick this cotton 719 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 2: swab in your mouth and swirl it around for thirty seconds? 720 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: And he's like, do I get anything else? Like can 721 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: I be king? 722 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 2: They're like, we've brought this Richard the Third tope bag 723 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 2: as a thank you gift, and he said, what's in it? 724 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 2: And they're like, nothing, it's just the toe bag. 725 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, with a swab, put that in your mouth. So yeah, 726 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,759 Speaker 1: I mean they they they tracked down a relative and 727 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: made that certainty certain which is just remarkable. I mean, 728 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 1: that's DNA changed. Was just such a game changer for everything. 729 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: There was always so much guesswork before, like hey, we're 730 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: pretty sure, but now with ninety nine point nine percent certainty, 731 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: like they found their guy. 732 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: Even without it. I'm not quite sure what they found 733 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 2: that was in controvertible evidence that it was Greyfriars. But 734 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,760 Speaker 2: if they had found grayfires and then they found this skeleton, yeah, 735 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 2: killed in battle obviously Sla Spine had who had scoliosis, 736 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,359 Speaker 2: who was the right age, Like I think we would 737 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 2: still all be like, yeah, that was Richard the third 738 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,720 Speaker 2: But yeah, the DNA definitely seals it for sure. 739 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,879 Speaker 1: They were able to give him like a burial fit 740 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: for a king. Eventually they had a big He was 741 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: reinterered at Leicster Cathedral. Benedett, Cumberbatch was there, the Queen 742 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 1: was there. Cumberbatch read an original poem that he did 743 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: not write. But like it was, it was a lot 744 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: of fanfare. It didn't really I mean, it proved that 745 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: he wasn't like quote unquote hunchback. He may have had scoliosis, 746 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: but he wasn't some like deformed monster. It did not 747 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: answer anything obviously about what happened to the two princes. 748 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: It's not like he they buried him with a you know, 749 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: a confessional scroll that he had written down or anything 750 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 1: like that. 751 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 2: I didn't do it. I was framed. Yeah, so I 752 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 2: think when the remains were found, one of the headlines 753 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: of the papers in England, Philip A. Langley read said 754 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 2: referred to Richard ID as a child killer. And so 755 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 2: she was like, you know what, I think I need 756 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 2: to come up with another project now that the last 757 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 2: one was successful. So she's got the Two Princes project. 758 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 2: Now she's trying to figure out a proof that he 759 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 2: did not kill the two Princes and or who did? 760 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 2: I think? She published a book claiming that it was solved, 761 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 2: and everyone's like, this isn't actually solved. But she did 762 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 2: come up with some pretty good evidence that suggests that 763 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 2: those princes made it out of the tower outside of 764 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 2: England and managed to grow up and were not killed 765 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 2: by Richard. That's her new jam. 766 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, but Chris Baron hit him with a cease and 767 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 1: desist and shut it all down. 768 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 2: Who oh is that the spin Doctor's guy? 769 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? 770 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 2: How do you know his name? 771 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: I looked it up. Okay, but that is the weird 772 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of musical stuff that I remember. I just didn't 773 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: remember that. Emily's always like, how do you remember the 774 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: bass player from Poison or whatever? 775 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 2: Ricky Rouse? 776 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: That was Ricky Rockett. Guitar player Bobby dal was based layer. 777 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 2: Okay, thanks, you got anything else? I'm Richard the third Chuck. 778 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,400 Speaker 1: I got nothing else. This is a fun one if 779 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: you can keep track of all the Edwards and the Richards. 780 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,280 Speaker 1: It's actually not the hardest thing to follow, and super interesting. 781 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,399 Speaker 2: Yeah it is. I love this one. Too well. Since 782 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 2: we both loved this episode, I think everybody that means 783 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:20,959 Speaker 2: it's time for listener mail. 784 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: And you know what, this is another rare shout out 785 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,840 Speaker 1: because we want to honor a Boy Scout, an Eagle Scout. 786 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: This from Rebecca Joiner. Hey, guys, my son John just 787 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 1: achieve rank of Eagle Scout and we'd like to for 788 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 1: you guys to come to his court of honor in 789 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: Michigan this June. A tradition in the Boy Scouts to 790 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: invite some of their Scout's favorite celebrities to their court 791 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 1: of honor. John is sixteen years old. Part of the 792 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,160 Speaker 1: troop I told her I wouldn't say the troop on 793 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: the air, but part of a troop here in Michigan. 794 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: He has served in the Honor Guard twice, been a 795 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: week at the Scout ranch, and started a five K 796 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 1: to support type one diabetes in honor of his brother Bo. 797 00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: His Eagle Scout project was to retire over six thousand 798 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: flags from the Grand Rapids Home for Veterans and Cemetery. 799 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: He also cleaned and organized their outbuilding to protect future flags. 800 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,439 Speaker 1: We listen to you guys as a family at least 801 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: once a week and between you and Joe Rogan, I 802 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: feel like he's getting at least a somewhat balanced view 803 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: of the world. Please, guys, just let me believe that. 804 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: So thanks again. That's Rebecca Joiner and Rebecca. We just 805 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: wanted to give a big shout out to John. Congratulations 806 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: buddy on the achieving the rank of Eagle Scout. That 807 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: is quite an achievement and all the work you've done, 808 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 1: all the volunteer stuff you've done, is just awesome and 809 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're just headed toward great things in life. 810 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like a congratulations. John. Thanks for listening 811 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 2: to us. We appreciate you. If you want to be 812 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 2: like it's John's mom's name Rebecca Rebecca and send us 813 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 2: an email about your kid or somebody you know and 814 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 2: love in your life who's just great. We love to 815 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 2: hear those kind of things. You can send us an 816 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 2: email to stuffs at iHeartRadio dot com. 817 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 818 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 819 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.